On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Paris Hilton ON: How to Stop Shame from Controlling Your Life & Turning Pain into Purpose

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Neum, I'm a journalist, a wanderer, and a bit of a bond-vivant, but mostly a human just trying to figure out what it's all about. And not lost is my new podcast about all those things. It's a travel show where each week I go with a friend to a new place and to really understand it, I try to get invited to a local's house for dinner. Where kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party? It doesn't always work out. Ooh, I have to get back to you. Listen to not lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:00:31 Regardless of the progress you've made in life, I believe we could all benefit from wisdom on handling common problems, making life seem more manageable, now more than ever. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of the One-Dee Feed Podcast, where I interview thought-provoking guests who offer practical wisdom that you can use to create the life you want. 25 years ago, I was homeless and addicted to heroin. I've made my way through addiction recovery, learned to navigate my clinical depression, and figured out how to build a fulfilling life. The One You Feed has over 30 million downloads and was named one of the best podcasts by Apple

Starting point is 00:01:04 Podcasts. Oprah Magazine named this is one of 22 podcasts to help you live your best life. The company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company's company I have had over 500 conversations with world-renowned experts and yet I'm still striving to be better. Join me on this journey. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Debbie Brown, host of the Deeply Well Podcast, where we hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your well-being journey. Deeply well is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well with Debbie Brown is available now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Starting point is 00:02:06 Namaste. When that happened, I was 14 years old and he completely took advantage of his power as a teacher at the school. And to be doing that to a little girl was just so wrong. The best selling author in the post. The number one health and wellness podcast. On purpose with Jay Shetty. So wrong. The best selling author in the post. The number one health and wellness podcast.

Starting point is 00:02:25 On purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose. The number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. And I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love is out. And I cannot wait to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love, is out.

Starting point is 00:02:46 And I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book, for you to listen to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eight rulesoflove.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep, or let go of love.

Starting point is 00:03:05 So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour. Love rules. Go to jsheditour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait to see you this year. Now you know my favorite thing in life is sitting down with people who are able to be open, vulnerable, and honest about their experiences in a way that we can all learn from, in a way that we can all feel inspired by and empowered by in our own lives. And today's guest is someone who

Starting point is 00:03:42 has a new memoir out. Now, I've read this memoir, Cover to Cover, and I can honestly tell you, it is one of the most authentic, open, genuine accounts that I feel allows someone to claim back their narrative. And I recommend you read it as well. And I'm gonna tell you who I'm sitting down with today. I have the fortune and honor of sitting down with the one and only Paris Hilton CEO,

Starting point is 00:04:03 New York Times best selling author, philanthropist, DJ designer, recording artist, actress, host, model and influencer. Paris has defined and dominated pop culture, commanding her position as one of the most recognizable faces on the planet. I grew up watching her, so I know very well. Paris has masterfully harnessed, her self-made spotlight to architect a driving entertainment and consumer products empire which spans an impressive range of businesses and verticals including TV, film, audio, music, publishing, licensing, consumer products, brand partnerships and so many more. In 2006 she created Paris Hilton Entertainment, a multi-billion dollar company consisting of 45 branded stores, 19 product lines, and 29 fragrances that is a mask over

Starting point is 00:04:54 $4 billion in revenue. In 2001, Variety declared Paris Hilton as a billion dollar entrepreneur in recognition of a successful business and global brand. Paris' new book is out now. It's called Paris, the memoir. I literally just finished reading it. And today we have Paris Hilton in the studio. Paris, thank you for being here. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:05:14 Thank you for the introduction. Oh, I meant it. And congratulations. You know, whenever I sit down with someone who's written a memoir, and I want everyone who's listening to really understand this because I think people see memoirs coming out and they see books coming out. And you just, you kind of think like,

Starting point is 00:05:30 oh yeah, someone's just telling their story. And I think what I found really fascinating about yours is I can't imagine how hard it was to retell so many of these stories. And to relive so many of them. And I just wanted to thank you for being able to go there so many times because I think, even though in your own words,

Starting point is 00:05:54 where people may think that they don't relate to you, I actually think that the stories you tell us so much more relatable than people would expect. And I just wanna thank you for sharing them so vulnerably. Thank you. Yeah. It was definitely very difficult and emotional, but extremely therapeutic, just putting it all out there

Starting point is 00:06:17 because so much that I've held on to for so long and so many things that I've never told anyone, like things I've never even wanted to say out loud because I didn't even wanna think that they were real. But it's just been the most healing experience of my life. So you feel it's actually been, even though it was uneasy, it's actually been something that has been therapeutic.

Starting point is 00:06:42 It's been healthier than unhealthy. Were there parts where you're like, oh gosh, I just need a break from this. Definitely. So many parts just because I've been through so many traumatic experiences in my life. So just to have to write them down and then doing the audiobook was even harder, having to say things out loud, especially in a room with three strangers I've never met before and having to tell my story, but I'm so happy that I did my audio book as well because I think it's important for people to hear the story from the person who wrote it. Yeah, that's such a great point too. Even having to say out loud for yourself, I think so many of us,

Starting point is 00:07:19 we hold our truth so deeply buried inside of us and And we might think it, but we never actually speak it out loud. And that's that's such a great example. I never thought about it like that. I think the other thing before we dive in, I wanted to mention, which I loved about your memoir is you were so phenomenally observant. I almost feel like you had a hawk eye where like you were able you're like were able to find all these details. You're incredibly smart, phenomenally astute, just spoiling these tiny details and patterns and connections and the stories you tell and the history you tell.

Starting point is 00:07:55 I really enjoyed it. I literally felt like you were talking to me, and I read it, I didn't listen to it. I now I'll have to listen to it, but I read it and I literally felt like I was like this talking to you. Yes. Thank you. It's hard to do I was like this talking to you. Yes. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:08:06 So it's hard to do that. It's hard to pull that off. So I just want everyone who knows, who's gonna read it, that you're really gonna feel that. Where I wanted to start was you talked a lot about how, and I think this is completely true. You said most of us regret things that we didn't do, not things that we did do. But you said in your 20s, there are

Starting point is 00:08:26 a few things you do regret. And I was wondering whether regrets that you did do or didn't do and what were they? For me, I feel that everything that I've done in life has made me who I am. And I'm such a strong person. And especially after writing this book and just seeing my life story and everything that I've been through, I feel that I don't have regrets in life because it's made me the woman I am today. What made you say that that chapter that I think you were just like, I've got a couple of regrets, like even if they're the silly ones, like I'm guessing they weren't any big ones. Relationships, like I wish I didn't meet certain people,. I wish I didn't meet certain people.

Starting point is 00:09:05 I wish I didn't let certain people in my life that shouldn't have been in my life people with bad intentions because I, especially growing up, was just always just so trusting of everyone and would let anyone in. And there's so many people who just didn't deserve that. Do you think you've got better assessing and evaluating energy and intentions around you because of all your bad and negative experiences you're saying? Do you feel like you've found a better radar or is it just something that we all keep making mistakes on because it's so hard?

Starting point is 00:09:38 What I read is you want to be a trusting person, you want to be a loving person, you want to feel loved. We all do, but have you found that you've got better at it? And if so, what would you say you've got better at in terms of sensing people's energy and intention? I think in the beginning, I was just unexperienced in life. So I really didn't know. And I had been through so much in life.

Starting point is 00:10:00 So I think I was just after the trauma that I experienced as a teenager, I was not, I don't know, I think I was just after the trauma that I experienced as a teenager, I was not, I don't know, I think in the right head space to make decisions on being in a relationship, like the first person I started a relationship with, I was not ready for that. And because of so many things that happened to me, my heart just had this huge wall around it for a very long time. And so many things that happened that it made me not trust anyone.

Starting point is 00:10:30 And it wasn't until with my husband that I had those walls come down and I actually let someone in, but that took me a very long time just from so many life experiences that made that me that way. Yeah, and I want to get to that because I want to talk about a lot of those things you just mentioned. But one line that really took me like kind of spellbound me in your book was, everyone was under the spell of love and money. And when I read that, I was thinking about it and I was wondering,

Starting point is 00:10:59 kind of aligns with what you're saying here is that a lot of people with negative intentions or unhealthy intentions are often under the spell of love and money and that makes them do crazy things. I mean, what was some of the craziest thing you saw people do, maybe not even to you, but what were some of those things that you saw when people were bound by the spell of love and money, as you say? What lengths have you seen people go to? I just have seen people change where money can just take over their mind and who they are as a person and any values they have would just go to the side. To see people change especially fame and money, I've just seen so many people come into this town, some people come and go and the fame and the money get to their head so much

Starting point is 00:11:50 where they become a different person and start thinking that they're better than others and treating others beneath them and that's something that I hate more than anything. When someone is unkind to someone and treats someone as if they're lower than them, that's one of the things that is one of my pet peeves. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Like you can't buy class. Like, family money can't buy class.

Starting point is 00:12:13 I've always felt that way that when you see people come into those things, it doesn't change your taste or your habits or your values. It kind of just amplifies who you already are. I think I've heard many people say where it almost just, it almost exposes you for who you really are when those things come your way. Yes. I think you said in the book or you've said once before when asked about self-esteem and I really want to talk about the things that happen in your teenagers, but I think self-esteem

Starting point is 00:12:41 is such a big topic in the world today, especially because of social media, especially because of so much self-judgment and self-criticism. And when you've been asked before, you've mentioned like, you're good at pretending sometimes or you have been good at pretending. And I wonder, when was it that you allowed yourself to stop pretending and really start working on it? What did that take? Because I feel like most of us, it's so much more easier to pretend and we working on it. Like, like, what did that take? Because I feel like most of us, it's so much more easier to pretend and we hide behind it. But I feel like you claiming

Starting point is 00:13:10 your narrative back in this book was almost saying, well, I'm not going to let what's happened to me to find myself a steam. Would you say that's fair or? Definitely. Everyone goes through that and it took me a while just after what I had went through. My self-esteem was just destroyed from the things that were said to me and the abuse that I suffered when I was a teenager at these troubled teen schools, I don't even like to call them schools. And it wasn't until my documentary back in 2019 where I really started doing this just whole path of self-discovery

Starting point is 00:13:53 and really just talking about so many things I had never told anyone. And then with now my book, that was the second part of it because I wasn't even ready at that point to open up in ways I did but I've just grown so much in the past couple years and Then getting married my husband. It's just my life has completely changed and I'm Gonna be always forever so grateful to Alexandra Dean the director of my documentary because that film literally changed my life.

Starting point is 00:14:25 Making it change your life. Yes, and so many ways. And now really just turning my pain into a purpose and helping make a difference in other people's lives has just been so rewarding. And I feel that people understand me in ways that they didn't before. Yeah, yeah. And it just feels really good to finally be understood. I want to tap into some of those events because I think I actually think there's more

Starting point is 00:14:54 people suffering in silence than people who are vocal about the pain and what they've been through. And I think that what I meant earlier, which I said this to you offline, but I want to repeat it here on the show that I think a lot of people for a lot of your life see parts of your life as unrelated but then when you open up about these things in the book, I actually think I have a lot of friends and especially women that I know that have been through similar things that have never opened up and have held it tight or opened up to a couple of people.

Starting point is 00:15:27 And so I'm hoping that with you opening up in this way, a lot of people will look at that and go, well, maybe I need to talk to someone or maybe I can reach out. So I wanted to talk about some of them. I mean, the first one that comes up is you have your teacher who you call Mr. Abacrombie who's manipulating you and grooming you

Starting point is 00:15:45 and making you think in a certain way. And it's really interesting because our teenage years are these years where we wait to be liked to feel likeable or we wait for someone to desire us to feel desirable. And I think you're in like eighth grade. Yes. And he's preparing you in this way. And then, you know, he takes you in his car one night

Starting point is 00:16:04 and he kisses you and pulls you into him. And like, you know, he takes you in his car one night and he kisses you and pulls you into him and like, you know, it's completely against your will. You don't know what's going on at the same time. It's nice to be like wanted and you talk about that before. I can't imagine that being someone's like, you know, first kiss to that degree and like, you talk about how like, because your parents kind of caught you.

Starting point is 00:16:23 And of course, the book goes into a much more depth. I'm just synthesizing it for the question. But you didn't want to talk about it with them and they didn't talk about it with you. Like, what does it feel like when you hold onto uncomfortable things? What does that feel like? And then what gave you the courage to actually say,

Starting point is 00:16:41 I need to talk about this? say I need to talk about this. For me, that's just how my family was, which we didn't like to talk about things. And when that happened, I was 14 years old and he completely took advantage of his power as a teacher at the school and to be doing that to a little girl was just so wrong. And I'm so glad that my parents ended up driving out the driveway because who knows what he would have tried to do. And after that happened, I just didn't ever talk about it with my family up until a few weeks ago when I asked my mom, I said, that night that you caught me in the car and you were chasing me in the car and everything, did you know who that was?

Starting point is 00:17:37 And she said, no, I was like, oh, I always thought, my whole, since I was a teenager, I thought that she knew that it was that. And she had no idea until now. She just thought it was some teenage boy. Wow. Up until like couple of weeks ago. Literally, up until a couple of weeks ago when she read my book.

Starting point is 00:17:55 And what was her reaction to that? I mean, when a shock, she just couldn't believe it. She was in shock of so many things in the book. She, my sister and her, we just spoke about it like in my house a few weeks ago and they were both just crying and saying, I can't believe it. You didn't tell us any of this. Like, I wish you could have came to us, but it's hard to talk about things. And especially when you're raised in that way where you don't really and especially when you're raised in that way where you don't really talk about anything that's hard, it's difficult, but I'm so glad that I finally got the courage to do it.

Starting point is 00:18:34 And I know that my story is really important and I wish that I had this book back when I was a teenager because I would have definitely not felt so alone and misunderstood. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really interesting, isn't it? Family, we feel so close to it. We all feel, and I think you do a, I think you'd really healthily talk about how, like, no one's family's perfect, but you love your family.

Starting point is 00:19:00 But then there's complex, and that's just, I think a lot of us have that experience, whereas like, our families would say the same thing, like, why didn't you tell me, but then there's complex. And that's that's just I think a lot of us have that experience where it's like our families would say the same thing like why didn't you tell me but then at the same time it's like well if I told you you may not have reacted in a way that was helpful. Did you feel like did do you feel like when your mom read that she like felt some guilt or like how did she carry that? They definitely felt guilty. I think as a kid, you just, you're scared, like, all men get in trouble. And I think that's something that shame is such a powerful, powerful thing. And that's a really important message in my book, that the shame shouldn't be on

Starting point is 00:19:39 you, it should be on the person that hurt you. And I felt like I just held on to so much shame my whole life because of other people hurting me. And it feel, I think other people who've been through the same thing need to hear that as well. That is so powerful. I just want everyone who's listening or watching right now to go back and listen to that because that what you just said is so true. I'm going to try and repeat what PowerSheet said so beautifully. I'm gonna try and repeat what Barrett just said so beautifully that when someone else dumps something to you, the shame should not actually be

Starting point is 00:20:09 something you have to feel and experience it's actually on them. And yeah, I was noticing that I actually was, when I was making notes, it was like shame and embarrassment. Are these constant themes in the book? And it's so interesting because all of us in our lives, we always feel embarrassed for someone else. What would my parents think of what I did?

Starting point is 00:20:29 Or I feel so ashamed of myself for what someone did to me. When actually what you just said is they should be feeling shameful of what they did, but like Mr. Avicron, be that day in the car, just drops you off and runs away because they want to just run away from that. And you start to realize actually that person is feeling so much shame that they're trying to, they actually lie to themselves about it in order to escape it. But I love that. I hope that everyone is listening

Starting point is 00:20:55 just feels freed by recognizing that that the shame you're feeling is actually for the person who hurt you to feel. And what really hit me was also just again talking about vocalizing things. You said it took you so long to even use the word pedophile. Yeah. Because you didn't want to explain to us why it was important to use the word but why it took you long. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s,

Starting point is 00:21:40 from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences, incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life. Join me as we explore what our 20s are really really all about from the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our twenties. The psychology of your twenties hosted by me, Gemma Speg.

Starting point is 00:22:18 Now streaming on the iHot Radio app, Apple podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is the destination for all things mental health, personal development and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Here, we have the conversations that help Black women dig a little deeper into the most impactful relationships in our lives, those with our parents, our partners, our children, our friends, and most importantly, ourselves. We chat about things like what to do with a friendship ends, how to know when it's time to break up with your therapist, and how to end the cycle of perfectionism. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford,

Starting point is 00:23:06 a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. And I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Take good care. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet we're constantly discovering new secrets. The depths of them, the variety of them, continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share ten incredible stories with you, stories

Starting point is 00:23:42 of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. When I realized this is not just happening to me, this is who and what I am. I needed her to help me. Something was annoying at me that I couldn't put my finger on, that I just felt somehow that there was a piece missing. Why not restart? Look at all the things that were going wrong. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets.

Starting point is 00:24:15 Listen to season 8 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think that I had just been so manipulated by him. And I didn't want to think of myself as a victim. But now as an adult, I look back on that and think of when I have a daughter one day and she's a teenager and if someone had tried to do something like that to her, I couldn't even imagine.

Starting point is 00:24:44 It just ang's me. And I never told anyone that story, but I know it's an important story because I know that's something that happens every day to people. I literally read your book as if I was reading about my daughter. Like that's how I was like,

Starting point is 00:24:59 and I don't have a daughter, but I was, I have a younger sister who I've always been very protective of. And to me when I was reading your book, that's literally the lens, what you just said is how I read the book. I was just like, if this happened in my, like, my younger, old, younger child, even son, like whoever it is, I can't imagine how upset I'd feel if I didn't keep that door open for them. And I just want to, you know, if there's any parents listening as well, I just hope that this inspires you to really

Starting point is 00:25:27 keep that door open with your kids because it's so easy to judge them and it's so easy to make it out like you made every right decision and your kids making bad decisions. But I promise you, you'll be so much happier if the communication lines are always open. I mean, speaking of communication with parents, you said there were some things that were difficult for your mom mean, speaking of communication with parents, you said there were some things that were difficult for your mom to discuss. Obviously, this was one of them. What were the other things that you felt your mom really like was just shocked by and just felt like she wished you could have spoken to her about it?

Starting point is 00:25:59 My mom had me when she was 19, so she was a kid herself. And that generation, like, I think a lot of people really didn't talk about their feelings. Like, no one was talking about mental health. It was just, I think that generation is just how they were raised. So I could understand why she was that way. And now ever since she's read my book and watched my documentary and has learned so much me in that way, we've just never been closer. So it's been a really healing experience for both of us as well. Yeah, and I hope that encourages anyone who's felt like that for a long time because like you're saying, most of us are not going to tell our parents what we're doing when we're doing it.

Starting point is 00:26:45 I was the same. I had so many secrets from my parents. My parents never knew about any of the girlfriends I had. My parents never knew about anything that I was up to because I was scared of them being mad at me and upset with me because the line in my house was focused on your education. Don't worry about girlfriends. And so as a young boy, all you care about is having girlfriends. And I was like, well, as long as I can get good grades,

Starting point is 00:27:07 I'm just gonna carry on doing all this other stuff. And it's interesting because I feel like, even as we get older, we're still scared of our parents, right? Like, it's almost like it never stops. And so it's so strange, like, my wife talked about this all the time, like, she talks about how, like, she's still scared sometimes to tell her parents about what she's up to or whatever.

Starting point is 00:27:27 I always feel like a teenager with my parents. I don't know why, it's just how it is. Yeah, and all of us feel that way. And there's this, it's so important that I think we get the courage even as adults because a lot of us are like, oh, that was the past, it doesn't matter, but actually it will actually change the relationship you have with your parents when you can actually open up the lines of trust. On the flip side,

Starting point is 00:27:48 you have the beautiful relationship with your grandma. Like that comes across in the book. So like strongly and beautifully, when you speak about her, I feel like it just comes out the page and it's beaming and your appreciation and your admiration for her is just, just just amazing. What would you say is a lesson that you think has stayed with you, that she taught you, that is like, that you still carry with you every day. Like, what would you say that would be if you had a pick one?

Starting point is 00:28:15 She was just a force of nature. Like, we'll just walk in a room and light it up and always made me feel so confident. And I remember when I was a little girl, she told me that she went to a psychic and the psychic said, one day your granddaughter is going to be one of the most famous and most photograph women in the world. And she said, I know that's going to happen one day and I just want you to always remain the same sweet, down-to-earth girl that you are with such a big heart and so kind and never let that get to your head.

Starting point is 00:28:51 And that was something that I always kept close to my heart and nothing ever changed no matter what happened to my life. I always remain the same sweet person. And I think that's so important to be kind. And that's something that you really installed in me my whole life. I mean, that that sounds like great thing. Everyone should tell their kids. I love all of that because it's almost like, I believe in you, I know you're going to be successful, but don't forget where you came from, who you are, and how you treat people. Like, that's what's what's foundational and really important. And yeah, it's, we all need that figure in our lives,

Starting point is 00:29:28 like whether it's a grandparent or uncle or aunt, a friend who reminds us of who we need to continue to be because it's so easy to get distracted. But what I think's really interesting is how you kept that mindset when, so you go, and I know you don't like calling it a school and I agree from your description of the CEDU, right? CEDU. CEDU, yeah. Yeah, one of them, provoking in school, cascade and a scent.

Starting point is 00:29:52 Yeah, so like looking at all of these facilities, even when they're taking you there, it almost feels like you're being kidnapped. Yeah. You have handcuffs walking through an airport when you're not a convict or, you know, you haven't done something illegal. No. And then it's even like when they explain it, they're like, we're going to this place to fix you.

Starting point is 00:30:14 And your reaction is, there's nothing wrong to fix. Like, what do you think? What I'm fascinated was like, how did you hold on to the idea that there was nothing to fix when everything around you is programming you to believe that you're broken, you're wrong, and you're needing fixing. How do you not take that all in? I knew that I didn't deserve to be there. And I wasn't a bad kid. I would live a very strict life, very sheltered. Then I moved to New York City, started sneaking out,

Starting point is 00:30:54 getting bad grades. And my parents talked to a therapist who recommended that I go to these emotional growth boarding schools. And they had no idea that just that it was a normal boarding school. And the way they take kids to these places is they have two men come into your room in the middle of the night and say, do you want to go the easy way or the hard way and literally hold up handcuffs.

Starting point is 00:31:20 And this is how children are brought to these places. And it's extremely traumatizing. That's something that I had severe nightmares for two decades. It wasn't until my documentary and all the advocacy work that I've been doing that those nightmares have finally went away. But for me, I just always thought to myself that I know that I'm a good person that I just always thought to myself,

Starting point is 00:31:45 I know that I'm a good person. I don't deserve to be in here. And that was the only thing that kept me going was who I was gonna become and what I wanted to be when I got out of there. Did you see other people break down? Like did you see other people around you? Just like, because I find that to be one

Starting point is 00:32:04 of the hardest things where if you're being told you're broken, if you're, did you see all the people around you? Just like, because I find that to be one of the hardest things where if you're being told you're broken, if you're being told you're wrong, if you're being told you're wrong and letting your parents down. And by the way, you're doing very normal things at this point. Like, there's like, I think sneaking out, getting bad grades, getting in trouble is actually pretty normal for any teenage kid.

Starting point is 00:32:24 And I had attention deficit disorder, which no one knew because no one was talking about that either. So that's the reason I couldn't pay attention in school and was getting bad grades, and no one knew why they just thought that I was purposely trying to not pay attention, but I just really couldn't focus. Yeah, and it's incredible to think that, and I think this is what's coming out so much today where people who weren't able to focus at school because of ADHD or other challenges that they have are doing phenomenally well in business.

Starting point is 00:32:56 Yes. And in life, and it's like you start to recognize that there isn't this correlation between, it's not like, oh, if you did go good grades, you had a great career or great profession. It could very well be the opposite. How do you find you've been able to, what's different about business in school, I guess, that you've been so passionate about and been so prolific at that you feel is different about how you were at a pro at school? I feel at my ADHD,

Starting point is 00:33:21 I consider it my superpower. And I think that's why in business and everything that I've done, I've always been very future thinking and thinking outside of the box and being a risk taker and someone who isn't innovator and pioneer. And I really attribute that to my superpower, VDHC. Yeah, but how do you, I guess, not how does not always being able to force yourself

Starting point is 00:33:53 to focus actually become a superpower in business? Like that, how does that work? Thinking in a different way, and with ADHD, my doctor, Dr. Hallorhoid says that it's like having the brain of like a Ferrari with bicycle brakes. So you're kind of just always moving really fast and thinking really fast. And I think that's why in business I've done so many things first because I just, I don't know, just took a risk and I'm impulsive. Yeah. And that's the interesting, isn't it?

Starting point is 00:34:28 Because it's almost like in school, everything has to have a process and a method and a approach where sometimes in business actually trying something out and being impulsive or making an intuitive decision can actually work out. Whereas being intuitive school is not valued at all. Yeah, I think I just found it to be boring. Besides, I loved art class, about music class, but math was not my favorite. Yeah, my favorite subjects at school were art and design,

Starting point is 00:34:57 philosophy, and I enjoyed economics because of how it was taught. But art and design and philosophy were by far my favorite subjects at school. And it's really interesting because when I was at school, all I'd ever hear is, Jay, those are dumb subjects to focus on, don't focus on those subjects, they're not gonna get you a job.

Starting point is 00:35:16 And now when I look at my life, I feel like my entire life is art and design, philosophy and economics. So that's literally it. And so it's interesting how we all have strengths that we miss out on. I wanted to roll back a few years because the experience that you describe about meeting the guy in the mall. And then it's almost like you go for this experience and you wake up the you wake up and you're like, you know what's happened, but again, it's another moment where you don't want to tell anyone about what's happened.

Starting point is 00:35:48 And I just feel every time I was reading a book and I read these points, it was like a punch in the gut for me. I was just like, I can't believe it. That something keeps happening. That is not something that you're inviting or encouraging and it's someone taking advantage. It's someone going far beyond any point of consent. And again, you're having to hold on to it. Can you walk us through that and just talk again about what it feels like to have to hold

Starting point is 00:36:17 on to something the second time around, especially when this is like from your first kiss to your first sexual experience, how does that keep accelerating internally? Like what's going on internally? That was another thing in my book that I had never told anyone, after that happened, I never said it out loud again and just tried to forget it. My friend and I were at the mall when I was 15 and a half. And we had met these two older guys that we had seen like every weekend there and they got our numbers and invited us over. And I had never drank alcohol in my life before and he had these wine berry coolers, his

Starting point is 00:37:02 wine coolers and kept telling me to drink it and pressuring me, and I kept saying no, and then it was like it's open, just do it. So I had a couple of sips, and then it was roofied and knocked out and woke up with him on top of me and was bringing your dreaming, your dreaming. And that was just terrifying to go through. And something that I felt ashamed for when, again, that was not my fault. This was someone who took advantage of a young girl. And how did it feel like a second time thinking, I can't tell anyone again.

Starting point is 00:37:45 I guess my question is with with shame and embarrassment keep cycling in this way, do you feel like you literally held on to that shame and embarrassment until the dark and the book? Like would you say you've carried it for that long? And what does that feel like? Is it festers? It's extremely isolating to feel alone. It's like that no one knows, but it's something that you're holding onto.

Starting point is 00:38:09 And yeah, it was something that I held onto until I wrote it in my book, because I know that has happened to so many other people. And ever since I've released my book, so many people have written me letters and contacted me on social media or met my book signings that people, of it need letters and contacted me on social media or met my book signings that have went through the same experience and they were all thinking me for them not feeling alone and them being able to talk about it for the first time

Starting point is 00:38:39 and hold the people accountable for what they did to them. And why do you think we do that? Why do you think we don't keep those people accountable for what they did to them. And why do you think we do that? Why do you think we don't keep those people accountable, but we see it as our mistake or our, you know, you walk away thinking, I'm such an idiot, I'm so stupid, I shouldn't have done that. Like, why do you think that is? Why is it that we just reflected back onto ourselves, seeing as you've gone through things like that? I don't know why we do that. I wish I knew why, but I think when people can talk about things like this

Starting point is 00:39:11 and it makes others feel safe to be able to talk about it as well. And that's something that I'm working on every day. It's all of this. This is like I've been healing, but there's so much there. And I've now put it out to the whole world and it's just... It's been hard just talking about it and just thinking about it. But again, I know it's important for others to hear.

Starting point is 00:39:41 We're so quick to judge others. So when we hear about these things, if it's never happened to us, we always think, oh, but they could have avoided it. And then when it happens to you, you reflect that judgment onto yourself and you think, oh, I could have avoided it. And so it's almost like the more we judge others and we're quick to judge others, we actually judge ourselves more. And the more we judge ourselves more, the more we are judging others and it kind of becomes this vicious cycle where we judge ourselves, we self-sabotage, we self-criticize, then we judge others, we criticize them, we point fingers and it just keeps going around and it's almost like if we gave ourselves more grace, we'd give others more grace and if we give others more grace, we'd give ourselves more grace.

Starting point is 00:40:24 We'd give others more grace, and if we give others more grace, we'd give ourselves more grace. And I do think that when people will tell their stories, like, I can't relate or say, I've gone through anything that you've gone through, but hearing your story, and I'm sure for the people who have been victims and have gone through these things, I'm hoping that it creates a sense of empathy and compassion and grace for everyone because I think the reason we don't tell everyone is because we think that they somehow think it was our fault. Do you touch our jail? Yeah. And have you felt this time when you've opened up through your book, do you still feel that there's been judgment back? Because I know in the past when things have happened, there's been a sense of like you've talked about before, like the idea of when you were

Starting point is 00:41:04 when you're seen as a sex symbol, it's like you're like, I like the symbol part because that's like iconic, but it's like when people start labeling you, would you say that this time when you're sharing the book, you felt that people have really received it well through the book as opposed to other ways or do you still find that there's still some judgment that's always going to be there? The reaction to the book has just been incredible, just overwhelming, with so much love and support. And just the things that people have said to me at the book signings and every single interview and people are just, it just feels amazing to finally be understood and have people respect me and have empathy and kindness and I feel because I played a character for so long people had

Starting point is 00:42:00 no idea and now they know that there's so much more to me and that's been incredible if I haven't felt any any negative energy at all. So that's just been the best feeling ever. That makes me so happy. I'm so happy to hear that. Honestly, congratulations. You deserve that and little Paris deserves that too. And you know, I'm so happy to hear that because I think being understood is the hardest thing. And especially being understood for the trauma that's unseen, like everyone sees the page six or sees the phone cover or sees whatever, but no one really sees the inner child that actually went through all of this because that's the part of you that the character's covering. The character's not covering the truth. It's covering the inner child that's experiencing

Starting point is 00:42:50 all of this and is not mature enough and not smart enough and not ready enough to end your so much suffering and so much pain. Does your inner child feel safer now? Or how do you think about your inner child with the healing work that you're doing? Finally, feel safe. Just with everything. My husband is just so incredible. Having my little baby boy, I just feel that my life is complete. Finally, I just feel that I've built a real life. I'm just so proud of everything that I've accomplished

Starting point is 00:43:22 and just reading my story. I'm just so proud of everything that I've accomplished and just reading my story and survivor and I'm about us. I love that. That's, I mean, it's, you definitely are. You definitely are. It's, and you see it, you know, it's like, it's challenging because, you know, there's so many people that the media kind media naturally picks on in that way, and sometimes it's good for business, and sometimes it makes sense for the character.

Starting point is 00:43:51 But there's always more going on, and I feel like you and even someone who's your close friend, like Britney Spears as well, have both had the tabloid, click- bay, articles, etc, etc, etc. And I think you went to a wedding last year too and you've stayed strong even though sometimes the media pits you against each other or does that? How have you managed? Because I feel like there's something really interesting that's happened in culture when you started influencing using that word from your book. There was a lot of like, even for actors back in the day in musicians, what

Starting point is 00:44:25 I've heard is, it was like, well, you can, you are the only influencer and everyone else can't be. If they come up, then you're going to go down. I had a lot of actors tell me that what they were told is you have to be the number one black actor. And if you're friends with the other black actor, then you can't be friends because people are going to choose one of you. And I feel like that happens in culture and race. It happens in careers, it happens in industries. How did you manage to keep a real friendship with Brittany during a time when all of this is happening to both of you at the same time?

Starting point is 00:44:55 Like how do you keep a genuine relationship at that level where you're both these huge tabloid targets? A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there. There's just this sexy vibe and Montreal, this pulse, this energy. Boizmann is seen as a very snotty city. People call it Boizangelis.

Starting point is 00:45:16 New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay. A great way to get to know a place is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Newton and not lost as my new travel podcast where a friend and I go places, see the sights, and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. We're kinda trying to get invited to a dinner party. It doesn't always work out.

Starting point is 00:45:36 I would love that, but I have like a Chihuahua who is aggressive towards strangers. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm gonna die alone when I'm traveling, but I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too. And also, we get to eat as much. I'm very sincere.

Starting point is 00:45:55 I love you too. My life's a lot of therapy goes behind that. You're so white, I love it. Listen to not lost on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. How's that New Year's resolution coming along? You know, the one you made about paying off your pesky credit card debt

Starting point is 00:46:10 and finally starting to save your retirement? Well, you're not alone if you haven't made progress yet, roughly four in five New Year's resolutions fail within the first month or two. But that doesn't have to be the case for you and your goals. Our podcast, How to Money can help. That's right, we're two best buds

Starting point is 00:46:26 who've been at it for more than five years now, and we want to see you achieve your money goals, and it's our goal to provide the information and encouragement you need to do it. We keep the show fresh by answering list-car questions, interviewing experts, and focusing on the relevant financial news that you need to know about.

Starting point is 00:46:40 Our show is Chalk Full of the Personal Finance Knowledge that you need with guidance three times a week. And we talk about debt pay off. If, let's say you've had a particularly spend-thrift holiday season, we also talk about building up your savings, intelligent investing, and growing your income. No matter where you are on your financial journey, how do money's got your back? Millions of listeners have trusted us to help them achieve their financial goals. Ensure that your resolution turns into ongoing progress. Listen to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Mi'amla, and on my podcast, the R-Spot, we're having inspirational, educational, and sometimes difficult and challenging conversations about relationships. They may not have the capacity to give you what you need.

Starting point is 00:47:28 And insisting means that you are abusing yourself now. You human. That means that you're crazy as hell, just like the rest of us. When a relationship breaks down, I take copious notes and I want to share them with you. Anybody with two eyes and a brain knows that too much Alfredo sauce is just no good for you.

Starting point is 00:47:53 But if you're going to eat it, they're not going to stop you. So he's going to continue to give you the Alfredo sauce and put it even on your grits if you don't stop him. Listen to the art spot on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For me, because we understand each other, and she's one of the kindest, most down-to-earth people and is just so lovely.

Starting point is 00:48:23 I think it's important when women support each other because we're all in this together and I think the two thousands were definitely about trying to pit women against each other in the media and they were so cruel to us and targeted us and it was really difficult to have to deal with just the constant pressure from the media and people inventing stories and paparazzi chasing. And it was just really crazy time. But it's important when they have friends around you that can understand that because they go through the similar experiences.

Starting point is 00:49:04 Yeah, I think that's the hardest part, right? There's only like one percent of people who are having any given experience, and that applies across the board. And it's like, if you're not friends with people who are going through the same thing and have the cards to open up to each other, you can feel so alone. Yeah. And it's amazing that you've been able to maintain that because it almost feels like as more rumors get told, you're more scared. Is that, would you say that's fair?

Starting point is 00:49:29 Like, do you feel as more comes out about you that's not true, you become more fearful of people view you? I think in the book you talk about one point, like every room I go into, I know what people have seen or what they know. I guess my question is, how has that stopped you from just closing off and hiding and actually going well No, I'm still gonna be who I want to be because I can imagine that when you walk in already feeling like you have a big

Starting point is 00:49:52 sign on your forehead It's it's hard to walk in a new places, but you keep doing it with business You keep walking in boardrooms. You keep walking into new environments like how have you found that strength? you keep walking into new environments. Like how have you found that strength? Just from being in this business for so long and also what I went through as a teenager at these schools just made me, I think prepared me for Hollywood in a way because I had just been through such abuse

Starting point is 00:50:19 that literally I could take anything. You build a tough skin when you're constantly around this. For sure. The abuse in the schools was worse. Yes. So it definitely prepared me for anything. Are you still friends with anyone who went to the schools that you kind of stayed connected with and have they kind of found themselves again?

Starting point is 00:50:40 I reconnected with some of the people that I was there with. And it's just been amazing just to come together and tell our stories and just have made so much impact. And now I've changed laws in nine states and now going back to Washington, DC in two weeks to introduce our new bill to push for federal legislation. So it's just been really empowering just to meet with people that have been through the same thing as me and who knew me before all of this. And now to really views our voices

Starting point is 00:51:18 and are now saving children's lives. I'm so glad that we're talking about this on purpose because I feel like that is such a journey of pain into purpose. And I think you said it in your book that actually, when you started helping and doing this work, and not just doing this work of trying to help the people who went there, but trying to change laws so that people never end up there in the first place.

Starting point is 00:51:44 Like, that approach is when you actually started to feel like you were healing. Like when you were actually not just trying to heal yourself or when you're trying to help others, that's when you really felt it. Can you walk us through how hard it is to try and push forward a new bill or change legislation in nine states?

Starting point is 00:52:04 Can you walk us through just how technically challenging that is and what you come up against? Because I don't think we always hear these announcements, but I don't think people know what goes into that. This is every day of my life. I'm working. I have Rebecca Melendro's, my head of impact at 11-11 media. And we are constantly speaking with senators, traveling, going and telling my story. I've been back and forth to GC. And this is a multi billion dollar industry. So there's the schools. Yes. There's thousands of these schools. There's hundreds of children that have died in these places. Just the reports we have of abuse and there's no regulations and it's just a lot having to go in there

Starting point is 00:52:56 and really push for this because people don't understand they don't know what's happening behind closed doors. And since it's such a profitable industry, it's also difficult because there's so many people that are trying to fight us against it. But when I actually go there and speak to them face to face and they hear the stories of myself and the other survivors that I bring with me, that's when they understand what's happening. And when people know that that's happening, they can't just ignore it. So everyone that we've been speaking to when they hear, and we actually go there, that's when it really makes a difference. And I think that's why we've been so impactful.

Starting point is 00:53:40 What do you say to survivors or of the schools or even people that you mean who've been through abuse? Like what do you, what, how can a friend help someone, a friend in their life who's gone through some sort of abuse? Like how do you be a good friend to that? Because I can imagine that a lot of people are listening right now going, I don't want to say to my friends because I've never been through it. I don't know how to connect. Like, what's helpful? I could just helpful to know that they can tell you

Starting point is 00:54:12 and they'll be there for them and not judge them and let them know it's not their fault. And just think of being able to talk about it and having a safe space where you can make them feel supported and just know that you're there for them and whatever they need. And what do you think like really creates that safe space because I feel for so many people we think we're so close to so many people But you almost figure out that you're not there's only a few people you can, and then you even name some of your closest friends who've kind of been through the same stuff.

Starting point is 00:54:47 For like, what really defines a safe space for you? You know, what is... You've talked about the relationship that you have with Carter, your husband, and the space you have right now, but what has made it safer? Like, what's actually created that environment differently now than you've ever had. Because I have people around me that I can trust. And it's definitely about knowing that when you say something, the people are not going to go and repeat it. So that's something that I've just learned over the years,

Starting point is 00:55:22 even before I would test people in my life and tell them some fake rumor and then just see if it would end up in Page Six or in the media. And that was a big test back in the day that I would do with people and a lot of people failed that test. And now I don't have anyone around me that I would even have to worry about that with. And that's something that's really important to me is trust. Because trust in loyalty is priceless to me. That's such a great test. That's such a great test. If anyone's wondering if you have a real friend tell them a fake rumor about yourself and see if it comes back to you.

Starting point is 00:55:59 Exactly. That's like, wow, what was the fakes thing you ever said? Do you remember? What was like a rumor that the fakers thing you ever said? Do you remember? What was like a room of that? I don't even know. The ones you pushed the boundaries on. I don't even remember maybe just like, oh, there's like a guy or something like, I have no idea. Something stupid and then it would end up and I would be like, oh man. How does it feel?

Starting point is 00:56:20 Because at one point in your book, I think, you know, you talk about this reputation that you developed in the media of like, oh, she sleeps around. She's always with lots of men. And then it's like, and you're like, well, that just wasn't the case. Was there a part of you that it was just that was part of the character and it worked? Or was there a part of you that just felt, no, that's not true. I want people to know. Like, how did you process that? I just knew that it wasn't true. And in the media, any time I was seen with someone at a party or whatever, people would just assume that that was the case.

Starting point is 00:56:53 But no one had any idea what I had went through that had made me really fearful, like even though I was known as the sex symbol, I didn't feel that way inside at all. And I was so scared to let people in. And so I had a lot of my relationships didn't work because I was like a teenager in a way where I only would want to kiss and make out.

Starting point is 00:57:14 And that was it. And a lot of people wouldn't be able for themselves to stay loyal because all I would do is kiss and they wanted more. And then the media, they just assumed that it was a lot more wilder than it really was because in reality it was actually quite innocent. Yeah. And did you just accept that?

Starting point is 00:57:36 You just realized you couldn't change that narrative and it was going to be what it was going to be or was it something you didn't pay attention to? I just tried just to not pay attention to things. I just feel that the media just always was constantly inventing rumors about me and I just felt like a target a lot of the times because I felt that it was myself and then a certain group of girls that they would do this too. What I find the most amazing thing is even in this interview, so many times you've said, I'm in a better place now, I'm in a, and I know you're saying they're still healing.

Starting point is 00:58:13 I know you're not saying it's figured out and it's perfect. I don't think that's what you're saying. But what I'm hearing is like, you know, I've worked through things, I've found a good partner, like I'm in a healthy space. I think the hardest, hardest thing after going through all of these things from an outside perspective is,

Starting point is 00:58:31 how do you trust another man? Like, right, like it's like you've had all these men who've abused you, mistreated you, who've exploited you with the sex tape, who've used your image in ways without even ever consulting or any sort of consent. And so, and it's like, you've gone through all of this, how do you even think about dating someone,

Starting point is 00:58:54 lettering or marrying someone for real? Because I feel like that requires so much of yourself. And although you're sitting in, obviously, you're a new mom and like, and I'm so happy, but I can only imagine that I've had, and I've had people by the way, ask me this question when I'm on tour, where they'll say to me, Jay, I've just been so abused or misused or mistreated, how do I love again? How do I trust again? How have you continued to believe in real love and real trust and loyalty when you've seen the complete opposite your whole life.

Starting point is 00:59:26 It was extremely difficult just not being able to let anyone in for so long. And with Carter, I wasn't even looking for love at this point. This was back in 2019. I went home to the Hamptons for Thanksgiving and I saw Carter that day at Thanksgiving lunch and he was just so sweet and kind of his mom and it's just so different than all the other guys. And he's Midwestern boy from a town of 800 people and he's just like this sweet nerdy, like cute, like just kind person who doesn't care about fame or any of this. He's just so the opposite of everyone that I've

Starting point is 01:00:17 ever known and just has this incredible family values and is just this angel, like I really believe that my grandmother and his dad are up in heaven and planned for us to meet because right away it was just so different and it's like electricity that I never felt and it was literally like we were inseparable right away. We moved in with each other and then the world shut down in March. So then we were really together before that. I'd been on the road and traveling over 250 days out of the year for two decades. So I never really had time to get to know someone because I was always on a plane. So just having to be in one place and not the world shutting down

Starting point is 01:01:06 and it was just me and him together and the like times during COVID, like one year of that is like seven years of like my normal life because my life is usually so busy with everything I'm doing. So all of that has just been like, I don't know, it's just been so different than any other relationship where I just felt like this is my destiny. That's beautiful. Congratulations. So happy to hear that. I can see you come to life and do you like, there's a glow when you're talking about Carter, which is really beautiful to see. But how, how and when did you start feeling

Starting point is 01:01:45 comfortable with talking to him about what had he gone on? Because I'm guessing that was a safe space, probably the first time you'd felt it from someone you were close to. What was that process like? Because I can imagine it's also really scary to be like, I found a really great thing. Now I'm going to share what my real trauma is and challenges is and how does this affect like, well, that person stay, well, they run away. These are like the real things real people think about. How did you get, how did you start sharing

Starting point is 01:02:16 what you'd been through and when did you start feeling like you wanted to do that? It was just, I feel the timing is everything and I had just finished filming my documentary when we started dating. So I was already going through this whole, just like emotional journey and then I showed him my documentary and he was the first person I had showed it to. So he learned so much about me from that. And then he just started asking me so many questions. And since I had already opened about it.

Starting point is 01:02:49 And the film I felt, I feel like that really prepared me for being able to speak about it in real life to people. Do you remember an interesting question he asked you about your experience that you felt like really brought you both closer together? Like was there something specific that he asked about that? you were and what was your answer and one that something that brought you closer together than you were before that? Yeah, I think it was just the way he was. He just actually listened and he started crying during certain parts of our conversation

Starting point is 01:03:22 as he felt just so emotional for what I had went through. And just to see someone cares that much, really just made me trust him even more, just to know that he cared so much to even, I don't know, have a conversation like that because I feel like I never really had such a deep conversation with someone before. You said that you don't cry about a lot of this much anymore.

Starting point is 01:03:52 But when did you really allow yourself to cry about it and feel it through? When was that opportunity you gave yourself? A lot of times I would cry just a lot of times I would cry just just after going through things in life and just feeling so alone, just coming home at the end of the night and having no one to talk to about it. Just a lot of times in my life and especially after my documentary and writing my book, just rereading all of that has just been so emotional just to have to feel it all. Yeah, you even spoke about you know hiding your pregnancy from your family and that was something that you and your you know you and Kau kind of kept to yourself.

Starting point is 01:04:45 And I was, when I, when I first learned about that, I was like, that was so interesting to me because it seems like in one sense, your life since you were young has been so public and so broadcasted and so overly commented upon and been out there. And then almost you're having this really precious, personal, beautiful moment.

Starting point is 01:05:05 And my interpretation was that it was a protection of like, no, this needs to be personal and private and sacred and special. It's what is that, what was going through your mind of why you wanted it to be so private? Like, how did that decision come about? Where it's like, no, actually this is the one thing that is gonna be that way.

Starting point is 01:05:24 Just felt that my life has been so public for over two decades of being in this whole industry. And with my baby, I just felt that this was something that I didn't want all the outside opinions from the world or just the online trolls or anyone talking about my son until he was here in this world and healthy and safe and I just I don't know I just feel like I wanted to keep that for me. So no one knew about it until he was literally a weak old. Wow. What's the pleasure in public broadcast and what's the sweetness in private, sacred,

Starting point is 01:06:12 personal experience, talked to me about the difference of the joy you get from like being in media and being on stage, being in front and sent and then what's the difference in how it feels when you get to have a special experience like that? I just want everyone to hear because I think those are two things we crave and chase. And then what's the difference in how it feels when you get to have a special experience like that? I just want everyone to hear because I think those are two things we crave and chase. For me, I love to make other people happy and feel that energy and love. And that's just an amazing feeling. But then to be with my baby boy and just have him laying on my chest and looking up at

Starting point is 01:06:52 me and I with his innocent eyes and just this little sweet precious angel who's just my world. So there are two different feelings. Like one is just exciting, but then the other one is actually just true, real love. And I feel that for so long, I always considered all of that type of attention, love, but now I know what real love truly is. Well, yeah, that hit.

Starting point is 01:07:25 Yeah. That hit, whenever I'm to take that away, that we often think of attention as love. We think of validation as love. We think of compliments as love. But love actually isn't any of that. Those are just almost like fake currency or fake money. Yeah, real love is what you're experiencing now with your baby boy and with carter and with yourself at the deepest level. Do you feel that we hear these words like self-love and self-care all the time

Starting point is 01:07:58 now? They're all over the world, but how do you define self-love now? Do you feel like this is the first time in your life that you've allowed yourself to love yourself or have you loved yourself throughout all of this? In the 1680s, a feisty, opera singer burned down a nunnery and stole away with her secret lover. In 1810, a pirate queen negotiated her cruiseway to total freedom with all their loot.

Starting point is 01:08:26 During World War II, a flirtatious gambling double agent helped keep D-Day a secret from the Germans. What are these stories having common? They're all about real women who were left out of your history books. If you're tired of missing out, check out the Womanica podcast, a daily women's history podcast highlighting women you may not have heard of, but definitely should know about. I'm your host Jenny Kaplan, and for me, diving into these stories is the best part of my day.

Starting point is 01:08:56 I learned something new about women from around the world and leave feeling amazed, inspired, and sometimes shocked. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon Rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh well, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao, the tree that gives us chocolate. But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen, or tasted.

Starting point is 01:09:27 I've never wanted us to have a gunfight. I mean, you saw this tax of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate. We're all lost. It was madness. It was a game changer. People quit their jobs. They left their lives behind, so they could search for more of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle, and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building armed with machetes.

Starting point is 01:09:56 And we've heard all sorts of things that, you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all this for a damn bar of chocolate. Listen to obsessions, wild chocolate, on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Munga Shachikhler, and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're gonna get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention. Because maybe there is magic in the stars, if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast.

Starting point is 01:10:44 Tantric curses, major league baseball teens, canceled marriages, K-pop! But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world can crash down. Situation doesn't look good, there is risk too far. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are gonna change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 01:11:19 So the first time I've gotten to know myself, so therefore I could really love myself because I feel that for so long, I was just very lost. And I had been through so much that I was just living such this vast, past life that I never even had time to think about anything. And I think I purposely made myself so busy that I wouldn't have time to think about anything and I think I purposely made myself so busy that I wouldn't have time to think about anything that bad I had went through in my life. And now I've just gotten getting to know myself and just feel so many different feelings.

Starting point is 01:11:59 Now I truly can love and know every part of me. Absolutely. How are you hoping to be as a mother now, like having, you know, you've had an interesting relationship with your own family, which you talk about in the book so much? I think we all have complex relationships with our own parents and family, and we love them. We appreciate them. And then the certain decisions, there's a, you know, you talk about how like, you know, at one point you wish that your parents would just say,

Starting point is 01:12:28 sorry, we did that, but then you've learned to understand that they may never get there. How does that, how have you become okay with it? I will get to the mothering part, but how have you become okay with that? Because I think for a lot of people, that's the hardest thing where it's like, my parents were wrong, they made a mistake,

Starting point is 01:12:43 they should be sorry, they should be accountable, but you are actually saying, I do feel all those ways, but at the same time, I actually feel like that's okay, that's their journey and that's their story, and I'm okay with that. How do you, because that's a real new, subtle place to be? How do you become okay with that?

Starting point is 01:12:59 For me, just knowing everything I know now, I think for when I was a teenager and I was sent away, I was so just sad and I was angry, but now being an adult and just doing all my research and now finding out that these schools are completely manipulated and they lie to the families and have all this false advertising and fake brochures and just it's such an evil industry and my parents had no idea and they were tricked. And that's something that I realize now. And so I can't be angry at them because they were just trying to do what they thought was right. Yeah, that requires a lot of maturity. Like, that requires a lot of looking at the context because I find like when you don't have that context, it's so easy

Starting point is 01:14:06 to be in conflict with someone. But when you actually create that context and you zoom out and you go, wow, like this is a big industry. So many people have been brainwashed. So many people have been marketed to and so many people have been made to believe that this is the best thing for their kids to the point that you're on the phone and they're still saying, no, no, no, just work the program. And how does that affect how you want to be a mother?

Starting point is 01:14:29 Because I can imagine that it makes you want to be really protective and at the same time, like you've also lived a life where you know the benefits of exploring. Like you talk about in the book multiple times of like, you're happy you partied, you're happy you went out. Like, you're out, you're not upset with that. And then it's like, how do you think about becoming a mother and how you plan on raising a child? Like, how do you think about protecting versus also exploring and curiosity and how you help a child with all those crazy decisions we all left to me?

Starting point is 01:15:03 Now that I'm a parent, I can completely understand. Just if I had a daughter and she was sneaking out in the middle of the night in New York City, and I had no idea where she was, I would be so terrified. So I can completely understand just how my parents were just scared because they were just trying to protect me. And I think that's a hard part

Starting point is 01:15:27 because you just wanna protect your children so much. And I think when you're so strict, it just makes them wanna rebel. So I don't know, I think I'm definitely gonna be strict. I had hope that my little Phoenix does not rebel, but at least I'll be more prepared because of everything that I've went through. And also I won't be able to be tricked

Starting point is 01:15:51 about sneaking out or any of that because I know everything. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. I'm hoping that he will just feel so safe that he'll be able to tell me anything or he won't want to hide anything because I think that's when kids will sneak out

Starting point is 01:16:09 or do things rely because they feel like they can't talk to you. Yeah, I think that's what it is. That really resonated for me. Every kid in the world is going to make bad mistakes and bad choices and bad decisions. I mean, it's, I don't know anyone who hasn't, but if you feel safe enough, and comfortable enough to tell your parents, and you don't feel like you have to hide from them,

Starting point is 01:16:29 then you can actually solve stuff with them, and you don't feel judged by them. That makes the world of a difference. I, yeah, it's, it's funny what you said there, like you're like, he's never going to be able to get away with anything because you're, you're the, you're the, the ultimate, but he is your son. So you never know. Like he might be, he's going to be super smart as well and now exactly how to play the game. Exactly. You said in your, you said in your documentary that you don't believe you will be truly happy until you have one billion dollars.

Starting point is 01:16:59 How's that go changed? How is that metric changed? I think before I had such a focus on money because I really saw that as freedom because that was something I said to myself. When I get out of here, I'm gonna become so successful, make so much money that no one will be able to control me or tell me what to do. But now I've just become so successful and everything I've created with my media company

Starting point is 01:17:27 and all of that. And I'm so proud. But that's not my main focus. I care more about babies and billions. Babies over billions. Yes. I can have both. I love that. One of the things that I really struck me in your book, and I'm happy to hear that shift in gold, that's beautiful, I think. One of the things that shifted you said this, you talked about how you got robbed of time.

Starting point is 01:17:55 And then you said the only way you got through, and I thought this was so true and so powerful, and that's why I want to share it with everyone. You said, the only way you got through the school, specifically you're talking about the school at that time, but assuming pretty much everything in your teens that you went through in your 20s, you said, I created a future world, a future self, and a future life without boundaries, and that's how you survived.

Starting point is 01:18:20 Can you walk us through what that means? Like how were you in this almost in prison? Like it sounds that way, the way you described it. But creating a future world, a future self, and a future life, what does that look like when you're in prison chaos, like pain? How are you doing that? I was just so just sad and depressed and it was just so horrible of what I was going through

Starting point is 01:18:50 every single day that I just started just creating in my mind this whole life that I wanted and what I wanted to do and I got out of there and just building this kind of fantasy life of who I could be. And I really do believe in manifestation and really manifesting who you can become because I really believe that I did that. And it all started from just so much pain and then wanting to turn it into something positive. How much of it happened the way you imagined it versus how much of it has actually been better than you imagined or less than because Yeah, I'd love to know

Starting point is 01:19:37 I just I always had big dreams, but I had no idea it would ever be on this level. And it was just, it's been such a journey, just everything that I've went through. Like, when I was a little girl, I wanted to be a veterinarian and then moved to New York and just saw just this whole other world of business and everything. And I think that just sitting there and having time just to really think about everything and I always dreamed of having one perfume and now I'm about to release my 30th. And it's just that I feel like everything I've really put my mind to is came true. And that was just your focus. So when you're in that school facility, and you're going through all of this, your mind's just there. Is that literally you

Starting point is 01:20:31 just sit there and visualize it? It was like an escape. Definitely. Other rise of it had just been so hard to go through if I didn't have dreams of what I wanted to do. And would you say that was the same technique with one of the things that hit me was like, you know, you felt good things happening and enrolled before and then, you know, specifically in the example when you're talking about simple life comes out. It's going to come out. It's, you're excited about it. The sex day comes out straight off to all of a sudden everyone's you know tearing you apart, taking you down. It's the worst things happen where you know it's put up in a grocery store sign. You know there's you talk about all of this in the book and I'm thinking

Starting point is 01:21:14 you're just feeling like you've got through the tough time, your life's on track and then all of a sudden it's like this something goes back in your face again. I'm like, how did you just, I constantly when I was reading the book, I was just like, how do you get out from this, right? Like was it again the same visualization and manifestation that helps you break through that or what helps you overcome and reframe that? Because I think that would just knock people out forever. I, that was one of the most painful experiences to go through.

Starting point is 01:21:47 Just to have been with someone and really loved and trusted them and something that was one night of your life where you'd never thought anyone would see it and then the whole world is watching it and judging and just being so cruel and it was just mortifying. And I didn't leave my house for like months and I didn't wanna see anyone. I canceled the press tour for the simple life. I just was, it was so just painful to go through that. And just to have the whole world It was so painful to go through that.

Starting point is 01:22:28 And just to have the whole world, just knowing that everyone was watching it. And I just felt like he took away something from me because I had always looked up to these amazing women and like, Frances Diana and I just felt that because of what he did to me, the whole world would always assume that I was something that I wasn't just based upon. One night was someone who I really trusted. What's the first step you took outside your house?

Starting point is 01:23:03 What gave you the courage to do it and how did you realize I'm not going to let that person define my narrative? Definitely took a while for me to feel brave enough to go out there. I had enough to go out there. And my first thing that I did was actually saturday night live with Jimmy Fallon. And I feel like I took control of the narrative there, just with that script, with how they wrote it. I thought it was just really. Yeah, you're sharing the book really well.

Starting point is 01:23:40 Just a funny way to, I don't know how to describe it, but I just felt like I was taking control of my narrative in that way. Yeah, when I read your story and when I listen to them, like here's someone who has just never backed down, like never given up. And I think this book, which I encourage everyone who's listening to read, I really do, because I think when we see things in the news, they're very different to when you see it from the viewpoint of the person going through it. Yeah. And I just want everyone to think about for a second just how you feel when your friends think something differently than the truth or how you feel when your parents or maybe you live in a bigger community and they

Starting point is 01:24:26 all think something of you that wasn't true or they see something about you and they react to it differently. And you know inside of you how you feel when your narrative is taken away from you and it's stripped away from you and another narrative is placed on you. I think everyone in the world knows what that feels like on some scale and some level. And I hope that it allows us to see that nuance in everyone else. It's not saying that anyone's perfect or anyone's amazing. It's saying that can we just accept that there are two sides to every story that there are, there's countless hidden truths that we never discovered that we're not aware of, and that there's nuance to everything, there's

Starting point is 01:25:10 subtleties to everything, and that everything isn't how it's made to seem in the way it's presented. And if we could just give people the benefit of the doubt, we'll probably give ourselves the benefit of the doubt as well. Definitely. Don't judge bookweights cover. Yeah. And we all do that all the time. Paris, it has been such a joy talking to you today because I really appreciate your trust. I know you haven't done a lot of interviews and you haven't. I really appreciate value your

Starting point is 01:25:38 trust and your team's trust in me and having this conversation with me today really means a lot to me having read your book to actually get a sit with you. And we end every episode with a final five. These are five questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So sure answers. You're very good at taglines and all the rest of it. So this should be easy for you. But Parasiot and these are your final five.

Starting point is 01:26:03 Question number one is, what is the best advice you've ever had or received? You only live once to make the most of it. Okay. And what's the worst second question? What's the worst advice you've ever had or received? The worst advice that I've ever seen is when people say to care so much about the opinions of others, I feel that in my life that I used to just care so much about what others think. And I think it's

Starting point is 01:26:34 just important to care only about people in your life that love and care about you think and not others who are not good people. Amazing question. Number three, how would you define your current purpose? My current purpose is to make the world a safer place for children. Oh, that is a beautiful purpose. Thank you for doing that. Like I feel so grateful that you're purpose. I think that's such a need in the world right now. And the legislations and the bills and you know, it's, that's the purpose. I think that's such a need in the world right now. And the legislations and the bills, and you know, that's the only way it's really going to happen

Starting point is 01:27:10 to make sure that it doesn't happen in the first place in a proactive way. So that's really beautiful. If you had a message or an intention or something you would say to the people that have hurt you and made you feel like you were the one who had to be shamed and embarrassed, what would you say to them? You should be ashamed of what you've done and I hope that you read this book and you never do it again. Thank you. A great answer again. I think it's so interesting, like, to really feel remorseful and to really feel, sorry, means to really try your best to live through the pain you caused someone. I don't think you can never really take back what you did and you can never,

Starting point is 01:28:13 to be honest, you're sorry and your remorse can never really repay the other person. And I'm guessing you've had to do all this work without any apologies or remorse, right? Or has there ever been any apology or remorse from any of these people or never? No. Never. I think that's the, that's probably one of the most incredible lessons from this book is that there's a famous quote that says, we should learn to accept apologies that we've never received. And it seems like that's what your work is doing that you've learned to accept apologies that actually never came your way.

Starting point is 01:29:02 And I love what you said about people reading the book to really understand how much they can potentially wreck and ruin someone's life, especially a young person. Fifth and final question, you'll like this one. If you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be? My law would be that everyone has to do one kind thing every single day. Beautiful.

Starting point is 01:29:30 I feel that the more things that people do, the better place the world will be. I love that. Paris, thank you for being here. Thank you for writing this book. I want to ask you a question. Is there anything that anything that's on your heart and mind that I haven't asked you about that

Starting point is 01:29:45 you really wanted to share that, want to open it up, give you that space, is there anything you'd like to share anything I haven't asked you that you feels really front of mind or front of heart for you, doesn't it? I can't think of anything. Great, that's good. That's a good thing. That's so much.

Starting point is 01:29:59 That makes me happy. That makes me happy. I just wanted to honor it because I really feel you've been so giving and kind and generous through your story. I want everyone out there who's listening and watching to go and grab a copy of the book, Paris, the memoir, give it to a friend who's gone through something or you might know they've gone through something and they're not sure how to process it. They're thinking about it, they're struggling with it. I think that this book is gonna open up

Starting point is 01:30:27 some incredible conversations about abuse, about ADHD, about connection to our families and parents, about rediscovering ourselves. And I hope it starts that conversation for you and your friends. Paris, thank you again. Thank you. So happy I came on this. Awesome. Thank you, you're very sweet. Thank you so much. I was thinking again. Thank you. Thank you. So happy I came on this. No, awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Starting point is 01:30:48 If you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion. I am Dr. Romani and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism. This season, we dive deeper into highlighting red flags and spotting a narcissist before they spot you. Each week, you'll hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and their process of healing. Listen to Navigating Narcissism on the I Heart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 01:31:29 I am Yumla Van Zant, and I'll be your host for The R Spot. Each week listeners will call me live to discuss their relationship issues. Nothing will tear a relationship down faster than two people with no vision. Right. tear a relationship down faster than two people with no vision. Does y'all are just flopping around like fish out of water? Mommy, daddy, your ex, I'll be talking about those things and so much more. Check out the R-Spot on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make

Starting point is 01:32:10 to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care.

On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Paris Hilton ON: How to Stop Shame from Controlling Your Life & Turning Pain into Purpose

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