On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Rachel Hollis ON: The Courage to Make Mistakes & How to Stay Motivated in Difficult Times

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

Rachel Hollis sits down with Jay Shetty to talk about loving yourself and seeing failure as success. We all need to learn to see the positive aspects of every failure in our life, to take proper care of ourselves by taking good care of our health, to sit down and process pain and grief at our own pace, and to never lose ourselves just to keep a relationship. Rachel is #1 New York Times Best-Selling and a motivational speaker. She authored three self-help books including Girl, Wash Your Face and Girl, Stop Apologizing. Aside from keeping herself busy with her podcast, The Rachel Hollis Podcast, she's also founded The Hollis Company, a media company that exists to arm people with the tools to make positive and lasting change. What We Discuss with Rachel: 00:00 Intro 02:06 Mental illness is not just about taking prescription medicine 06:00 Being intentional about trying to live in a healthy way 12:17 What the evolution of social media is doing to us 21:05 “My advance for my first book, which was Party Girl was $1,000.” 24:02 When something shakes the best life you think you have 38:24 Journaling every single morning to remember conscious moments 41:53 Pushing yourself to get over a difficult moment in your life 46:31 A different view of failure 54:48 You create something that you value and believe in and put it out there 59:10 There are many parts of us that can make a better version of ourselves 01:05:38 Feeding into your own narrative 01:09:24 “An apology without action or change is empty.” 01:12:27 Having support from people who cares without high expectations 01:17:14 How do you establish boundaries when you haven't done it before? 01:22:33 What’s your love language? 01:26:00 Don’t make other people’s process of pain about you 01:29:10 You’re trying to be the person who your partner thinks you are 01:37:19 We need to stop seeing the end of things as failure 01:40:40 Rachel on Final Five Like this show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps! Post a screenshot of you listening on Instagram & tag us so we can thank you personally! Grab a copy of your own Think Like A Monk book. Get the audiobook here: https://amzn.to/2THCYUu Episode Resources: Rachel Hollis | Instagram Rachel Hollis | Facebook Rachel Hollis | Amazon Hollis Co. Achieve success in every area of your life with Jay Shetty’s Genius Community. Join over 10,000 members taking their holistic well-being to the next level today, at https://shetty.cc/OnPurposeGeniusSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender and visible things we don't usually talk about?

I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by stellar guests like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Munga Shatekler, and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want

to believe. You can find it in major league baseball, international banks, kpop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I honestly think I maybe have a different view of failure than other people do. I think that it's one of the things people are most terrified of in the world, especially in my community. So many women in my community petrified of failing. And I always think like, if you can understand that 99% of the time, you're not afraid of failing. You're afraid of other people seeing you fail. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now this is a guest, a friend that I've been talking to DMing, messaging with for a bunch

of years now, and I've been waiting for this moment to actually sit with the remperson. I'm a huge fan, I've had my other work for a long, long time, wanted to be in the same room. We've actually never crossed paths in person, but we're finally here in the studio. I'm speaking about none other than three times,

New York Times best-selling author and the founder of the Hollis company, Rachel, Hollis, Rachel, thank you for doing this. Oh my gosh, I'm so tickled. I'm tickled just to get to hang out with you and the fact that there are cameras is also great. I know, I've genuinely been looking forward to this. Yeah. You were kind enough to have me on your podcast last year.

Yeah, yeah. We had to do it digitally. I know. But it was still wonderful. I felt like we really got along and connected. Yeah. Even now you've just walked in and I'm already like, I feel like I already know you, like genuinely.

100% and I anticipated that. So, no, this is wild. Yeah, same. It's honestly wild too, just because with everything that's happened in the last year, year and a half, maybe at this point, we haven't, I just haven't had the chance to connect with colleagues or with people who sort of have the same mindset or

kind of striving for the same thing. So it's always a treat to get to connect in real life. Yeah definitely. I'm excited to talk to you offline as well on this and more and as much as we can. But we literally just discovered something which has to be where we start. So Rachel literally just said to me, Jay, I need to tell you what I was doing yesterday. Yeah. And I was just like, I did the same thing. Right. So why don't you? So there, Dr. Daniel Aiman is someone. I've admired his work forever.

I've read his books and I always wanted. He's a doctor of the brain. Yeah, he's a clinical New York science. Thank you. I knew you knew the words. He's been a guest in the show twice. OK. So if anyone, yeah.

Love his work. But I had always wanted to have it done. And my friend Trent, you know Trent. Yeah, Trent, okay. So Trent's a really dear friend. And we were texting a few. He got scanned recently. Yes, so he was here, right?

So he was here. So he was here and he was like, oh, I'm in California. I'm having some scans done. And I was like, by who? Because I feel like if you're sort of in this industry, there's one person you go to. And so he connected me and I nerded out when I got to talk to Dr. Amin for the first time,

just because in my life, what I want most is to understand myself emotionally, physically, why do I do the things that I do and how can I become a better version of me and I just feel like the more information I do? And how can I become a better version of me? And I just feel like the more information I have for that, the better. Also, a ton of mental illness in my family,

my older brother was schizophrenic and took his own life. And there's just depression and anxiety and so many things that run in this. And I just want to understand if there are things that I can be doing to better live each day. And so I felt like my favorite book by Dr. Aiman is, I think it's the end of mental illness, which I just found fascinating.

Essentially, the idea that the brain is the part of the body that like if you broke your arm, they would take an X wave, your arm before they did anything to try and make it better. But if you go to a doctor and you're struggling with mental illness or emotional issues, they don't look at your brain, they just start prescribing things. And my huge proponent of taking the medicine that you need and getting the help that you need, but I just, I know in my brother's case, there was a lot of medicating and it was a different time and my parents really didn't have the information they needed to help him. But I just think he would have been better served by more info.

So that was why. So I went yesterday and got brain scans and found out that you and your wife were not there. You were there two hours before us. You were there two hours before us. You were there two hours before us. You were there two hours before us. That's actually crazy. I mean, that's a beautiful

reason to go and you know, I'm sure there's so many people listening and watching right now going, oh my gosh, like, we want to know more about this and we went because I've I've realized that we like like we're using we just know very little right like about us. Yeah, and I'm just always like, I want to learn, I want to be curious. And I really struggle with not knowing that I could be acting in a certain way or behaving in a certain way, because of something that I've no clue about. But actually I could be doing something about. And I think the other thing that changed for me for a while was we were always told to like, live a long life. And that was like a big thing when you were growing up. Like, I don't know, at least in my culture, it was very much like you get blessed to like,

live a long life. Right. And I was thinking, but actually I wanna live a healthy life. Yeah. The length is gonna be up to God and whatever that needs to be. But the health is up to me.

Yes. Of how conscious I am about how I live. Yes. And so I think for me, going to get my brain scan and I went with my wife yesterday, we were going there for that reason. Yeah. You know, what are we doing wrong?

What are we doing that's harmful? What are we doing that's good for us? Yeah. And but I love your reason. I mean, that's such a, I think for so many people who have had people in their life who've struggled with depression or mental illness and not known where to start. Yeah. And we don't discover anything yet.

So we don't have anything to share. We don't know. We just set you all up. Right. We don't have nothing to share. I know. But I do think, you know, one of my big fears is being so intentional about trying to live in a healthy way.

But there are times in my life where I've found, let's say I'm taking a supplement that I think is really good for me. And then I'll find, like, something will start to feel off or go wrong and then I'll go have blood work done and find, like, oh, well, you know, you're anemic. And I am anemic and I have a little blood pressure. So like, you actually shouldn't be taking that supplement

because it's gonna make this thing worse. So I hate the idea that without information, we actually do things that are harmful, that we think are helpful. Because I really just feel like that it's so discouraging when you're making choices that you think, like maybe there are choices that are even hard for you to make, or you're eating in a certain way, and you're trying to like take care of yourself, and then you find out like, oh, it was actually the opposite, it was so discouraging.

So I just, I am a never-ending person. Dear example do something like that that you've done because I think that's, I can relate. And I'm trying to think about our audience. So yeah, what's something that you thought was told? So I grew up, what's popping into my head is I grew up in a family, my family's southern on both sides, Oklahoma and Arkansas and really not conscious of health in any, not mental, not emotional, not nutritional, nothing. So I grew up in a family that deep-fried everything covered in gravy, covered in cheese, right?

It was delicious. And sort of the idea in my family growing up was if you made it at home, it was healthy. It was if you ate out, that was unhealthy. And so just no awareness around nutrition. And I remember very specifically, after I had my first son, he's 14 and a half, so it's been a while, but I had gained a lot of weight in my pregnancy because I just had no idea how to take care of myself or what to eat or, and I just want to say for the record because this is very important to me. I hate how often weight is used to control women and make them feel shame. And so this is not a conversation about weight. I'm carried you away, live your life, you're beautiful. But for me, I'm 5'2". And I was 52 pounds

heavier than I am today. And at 5'2, that's a ton on my frame and physically very uncomfortable, like in pain, just all the things. And I remember after I had Jackson, it was the first time in my life that I thought I need to lose weight and I had no concept of even how to, in no idea. And absolutely did things in retrospect that were horrible for my body, like fad diets or protein powders or things,

and I mean like slim fast. I don't mean like what we have today that's good for us. And I remember about going through like a month where I was like on a diet, and I didn't weigh myself because I was just trying to make, you know, great strides and whatever, and finally getting to the end of the month and weighing myself.

And I think I had gained a pound. And I was devastated. Like, first of all, my son was probably four months old at the time. I'm exhausted. I don't know what I'm doing. And now I feel like I've been restricting myself and feel like I've been doing things that are good for me. And and actually it was opposite because I really didn't understand food at all.

So, I was eating things I thought were healthy and they weren't and I was, it was a whole mess and it's been years of learning a different way. But when you're already tired, you're a mama and you feel overwhelmed and now you just did, then you're like screw it like why am I even trying? I may as well go to Taco Bell because at least that burrito is gonna make me happy Instead of sort of making these choices so I just I I grew up without Education from my family about what that looked like and my personal development journey education from my family about what that looked like. And my personal development journey really was a journey of me trying to arm myself with information that I never had.

And I found that information in books and podcasts and YouTube videos and it changed my life. Yeah, no, that's such a great example, by the way. Like I love that story and journey because it's so relatable for so many people. Right. No one grew up with parents and you have everything about. Right. When I married my wife, I was just like, how do you know all this? Because that's her world.

Yeah. And I didn't grow up in that way either. I grew up eating four chocolate products a day. Oh my God. So I grew up at Iced Eat Chocolate Biscuit, a chocolate bar, a chocolate yoghurt, and a chocolate ice cream. Nice. Everything.

And it was amazing. And now I'm addicted to chocolate for life. Yes. It's such a ice cream. Nice. Everything good. And it was amazing. And now I'm like addicted to chocolate for life. Like it's such a struggle. And it's funny. I actually told Dr. Danielaim in this. I said to him when he was on the podcast, I said, oh, you know, now I've become really good at controlling my sugar intake and I do a cheat day

once a week. And he said, yeah, you shouldn't be called a cheat day. I was like, what? You're cheating your brain. And he just, he like flipped down. And I did that matrix. I was like, he was just like, yeah, you're cheating your brain. And he just he like flipped down and I did that matrix. I was like, he was just like, yeah, you're cheating yourself. He was just like, it's not a good thing. Right. Because you think that your sugar a week is a treat because it's actually cheating your

brain. And I was like, oh man, I still do my once a week. I know. I know. We're honestly talking about it. We're like, he's good. When we have this consultation, he's gonna tell us, you never have coffee again, never. Because I did yesterday, honestly, I was telling you, I couldn't have coffee beforehand and I had flown out from Austin. And so I could not believe how much brain fog I had yesterday without caffeine. Like, he texted me yesterday and said,

how did everything go? And I was like, I am addicted without caffeine. Like, he texted me yesterday and said, how did everything go? And I was like, I am addicted to coffee. I am. Because I haven't tried to live without caffeine since I was pregnant the last time. And I cannot believe how much I need that for focus. And in fact, as much as I am high-producing, I'm always doing, I am the, I'm an

achiever. I like do all the things. The lowest scoring thing on, you know, that computer test it is, it was focused. Lowest scoring for me. And I had suspected that because I can accomplish a lot, but I get distracted easily. And so I'm dying to know like why or what do I need to do? And I'm afraid he's gonna be like, never have coffee again. I think that's all of us.

I really do believe that the evolution, and I love social media, right? Like without social media, I wouldn't even have this community we have and be able to have this podcast. So I'm not someone who likes to bash social media. I think it has its pros and cons. Anything, but I find that as social media apps evolve, I find that they do worse for my focus

for undistraction and system. So I saw the difference between the difference between Instagram and TikTok for my brain. Right. And I'm just being aware, like I haven't TikTok for my brain. Right. And I'm just being aware, like I haven't even had that tested. But I saw that the more time I spent on TikTok, the more I would need distraction,

the more I would feed distraction, the more I would choose distraction. And I've realized that for me at least, I'd love to hear, yeah, from trying to take this, is I'd love to hear what yours is. For me, I found that when I don't look at my phone first thing in the morning, I'm able to control that urge. And when I go on breaks, I was literally in my army for two weeks recently.

And the work that I was doing meant from 9am to 5pm, we couldn't be on our phones. I was working with the client. And so I wasn't on my phone. And not being on my phone for 9am to 5pm, which is very abnormal for me in my life And I'm sure you as too. It was a phenomenal feeling and so for me I've been able to figure that out by realizing I feel so much more clarity and focus when I don't pick up my phone in the morning When I do do like a social media fast, right regularly throughout the year What have you been doing apart from the coffee?

Like what have you been doing to help improve? And I guess why do you want to improve your focus is a good question too, because some people are sitting going, well, I'm happy just doing this, but. Well, oh my gosh, so many, yeah, so many things, sorry, so many things. I'll just start here. I literally just went.

I love it. So I think three weeks ago, not only did I remove TikTok from my phone, but I closed my account. Wow. I literally deleted it. And it was a very conscious choice because of how, like I would go on fast where I'm like, I'm not going to open TikTok for a month or whatever. But there's, I mean, obviously it's designed in such a smart way. I just will lose an hour and a half. Yes. And I would sort of tell myself, I would only do that. Like, I just will lose an hour and a half. Yes. And I would sort of tell myself, I would only do that.

Like, let's say it's night and the kids are in bed, I'm nothing to do. And I'm like, okay, I'm just going to watch for five minutes. And then I lose an hour and a half. And I know there's a lot of people who would say, like, well, who cares? I care because the greatest value in my life is growth. And in order for me to grow, I have to constantly be feeding my mind. I sound so cheesy right now. I feel like if I was watching, it would be like, okay, whatever. But for me, that's books. And I never run out of nonfiction books on my nightstand on, you know, tables and so I have all these sacks I really

want to read. And that hour and a half, that was my reading time. Because when I'm done, I'm tired and now I need to go to bed. So for me, it was a very conscious decision of, you have to know what it is you want. And this is fun and this is beautiful and this is a cool way to connect with people, but I just knew this is not serving me well. And I had tried not having it there,

but I don't know if you ever feel like this. Like if you have an account on social and you're not posting on it, there's almost this like weird guilt that happens. And so you feel like you have to. And I just thought, nope, I'm just removing, I'm removing this distraction from my life. So why focus matters to me is there's so many things that I want to do,

meaning there are 10 books inside my brain that I want to write and screenplays and things I want to try and stuff I haven't done before and the only way I'm going to pull that off with a company to run and four children is the ability to focus and get into flow state and get that work done and be highly productive and then move on to the next thing. So for me, I am constantly trying to figure out how I can do those pieces better. And I really feel like this is part of wanting to have a brain scan too. I feel like my focus has gotten so much worse in the last few years. And I don't know if that's the result of social or the phone or what it is,

but I just know that if I can get back into the focus that I had maybe four years ago, whatever was going on, I was so much more productive. And I really want that back. I can actually relate to that so much. Like everything you're saying, I'm just like, I feel the same way,

and that's been what's making me so conscious of it, especially in the last 12 months. Right. I think we've all consumed more content in the last 12 months than ever before. And for me as well, like, so this is real and I know it sounds like crazy, but it's, I hadn't watched television, like a TV show in the last 10 years before. Me either before COVID. Before COVID. And either before COVID. Before COVID.

And then now I am and I sort of hate it. Yeah, I literally noticed myself. I didn't watch TV footage. I watch movies, so I'm a big movie fan. But I hadn't watched a TV show or watched something consistently or bingeed or any of that. So I do watch movies just to clarify. Because I talk about movies a lot.

But TV shows, I hadn't, and I feel so different mentally. Now that my habit became every night, me and Riley would finish our day and we'd turn on a show, which we didn't do for such a long time. We've been married for five years. So for five years of our relationship, we haven't done that at the end of the day. We've been doing that nearly every day for the past 12 months, and I feel different. Like I feel slower, I feel more lethargic, I feel less alert, I don't feel my best self.

Well, it's interesting, I was talking to a friend of my boyfriend about this, which I'm fine to say that I have a boyfriend just not going into detail. So I was talking to my boyfriend about this the other day about how important boredom is for imagination. So when we were all growing up, you were just bored sometimes and that was life, right?

And in the boredom, you know, when you have those times when you're a little kid and you'd be bored and you should have like wander around the house and like try and figure out something to do and then you'd end up doing something clever, interesting or like you'd make up a game, or what kids don't have that anymore. There is a million things that can distract them

from being bored. And he said something really interesting. He's like, no, kids are still bored. They're just bored and distracted, which is way more dangerous. Because they're still bored scrolling on their phone. But now they're not even conscious of the boredom. Yes.

And what is that doing to the next generation of not being able to be creative thinkers or sort of go outside the box? And I have this conversation with my kids a lot because they have, I mean, they have like our old phones. Yes. And I like it'll be like, oh, here's an iPhone 4. That you can like try and make work.

But they definitely have phones and that's very much a part of their life. And they get so frustrated with me. Because I'm like, no, you need, you need to be, yeah. I can't figure out what you're gonna do with this time. This is your time to, you can read a book, figure it out. And as much as they're frustrated by that process, me removing tech and making them go do something

That's also when my youngest will always gravitate to painting Right the oldest will always go and start playing with Legos or building something that he's like too cool to do because he's 14 But they'll always gravitate to these things that they wouldn't do otherwise But I wonder how much we need that as adults as well. Like, how often are you bored? How often are you just like sitting sort of letting your mind wander? Yes.

I feel like we're missing that because we just, it's such a, we're always here like grabbing for where's the phone. Yeah, we're bored and stimulated, which is weird, right? It's like, how can you be stimulated but be bored? But we are. Right. There's actually a great book by the School of Life called How to Be Bored. It's a really small book. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I came out a couple of years ago and I spoke about with

you, Val Noah Harari, the author of Homer Dei, Asin Seyfis. Oh, yeah, yeah. We spoke about boredom on the podcast and we were going to start the boredom movement. Right. We were like, you should have X amount of time every day where you allow yourself to be bored. Yes. Yes. You allow yourself to not do anything. And maybe, like you said with your children, we'd actually do something innately creative and magical and beautiful. Maybe you won't. Maybe you'll just be bored. Just be bored. But it's healthy for the mind and the brain. I wonder what Dr. Danielle was going to tell us. I know. But I wanted to ask you, this is something I've actually wanted to ask you for such a something I've actually wanted to ask you

for such a long time, because, and you mentioned it, you mentioned you love reading books, and you stack books. Yeah. And you've had three phenomenal successes as best sellers, but that's not where your author career began. No.

And I remember reading articles about you and just looking at like, and I forgot the exact numbers to forgive me, but how many books did you write before? So, Girl Washerface? Girl Washerface was my sixth. Six, that's what I was gonna say, six books before, I was gonna say six or seven, but I didn't wanna get right.

So, Girl Washerface, Girl Stop Apologizing, didn't see that coming. These three books, multi-millions of copy sold, extremely successful, like the guide book for literally every person I've seen online. But then there's five books before these three. And like four people. Do you have a number of it?

Yeah, I mean, just as a rough, I'm not asking for a sales figure. I mean, more just like how many people were cared? I mean, that, it's hard with, so the very first book I wrote was called. Oh, they've all changed now. Yeah, that's what's hard. I'm like, oh, they sold hundreds of thousands now. Yeah. No. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But back then, you know, here's how I would think of it. So when you're an author, just saying this for peeps who are at home, who might not know,

you get an advance. So a publisher gives you an advance to write a book. And then if you sell out that advance and you start making royalties, I know you know this. No, no, no, it's useful. It's useful. Yeah. Just as a point of reference, my advance for my first book, which was Partigirl, was $1,000. And I was like, I am rich. I have made it. Like I'm killing it in life.

So that was just this tiny fiction book that I wanted to write about. And I still love so much. And fiction is still such a big place in my heart. I actually just finished my first screenplay. I don't know why it's amazing. I didn't know that. I can go.

And I've always wanted to do it and have had the idea forever. But that's again, this sort of like creativity and ability to focus is like, how do I shift my brain from thing to thing? So yeah, so I started in fiction. And I think that'll always be a part of love for me and it doesn't even have to be successful. Here's the interesting thing. Maybe we talked about this when we did the podcast. Being an author was never ever something

I planned to be known for. I just love books and it was my hobby. And so I would write a book. And in fact, party girl, I self-published. No publisher wanted that book. And I self-published. And then it started to sell and it started to do well. And then a publisher came and said, Hey, we want to buy this and turn it into a series. And we'll give you a thousand dollars.

And I'm like, hot down. Wow. So it really was just supposed to be this little thing I did on the side. And I honestly, as I don't know how this will sound, but I miss the obscurity. I miss writing and not having anyone care what I wrote about, because there is a freedom as a creative to do whatever you want to do. Like, do you remember when you first maybe started creating content and you could freaking

do anything? And now everything's under a microscope and how did it perform compared to that? And so I feel like you lose some of that artistic joy in the process. Yeah, I love that. That's been actually, it's really interesting. Every time, and I mean, having this conversation a lot more recently, like people have been asking me, like, what's the big thing you're doing this year, right? And that's a question, I'm sure you get us a ton. Right. What's the next book, yeah? Just like, well, really big thing you're doing this year, right? And that's a question I'm sure you get all the time. What's the next book? Yeah.

Well, really, if I'm completely on the big thing I'm doing this year is self discovery, like rediscovery. Like I'm so, I mean, such a strange land for myself this year. And I'm loving it. Yeah. Because it's the first time where I'm just like, I just want to figure out what I care about. Right.

Like I really want to just explore and be, you know, refined what I want to dedicate my life to for the next three to five years or whatever it is. Like, and I'm just in that space. And I can see how uncomfortable it is as an answer to some people who are like, what are you committed? And I'm like, well, we're doing a lot of stuff that I love. Like I love the podcast.

I'm sitting down with amazing people. Like I am writing my second book and I'm loving the process. But there's also a part of me that's allowing myself to just unfold and unravel again. And a lot of it to me is, and I said this to my friends the other day, we had a group call with all my friends in London who I miss. And I'm saying, I literally feel like I'm back at the beginning of my journey again in so many days. I do too.

That's wild. Yeah, I do too. And it's really liberating and refreshing. And I love that you said that. And I'm so happy. It's nice to know that, you know, you're not alone, even when you are. Well, I feel like I'm experiencing that too,

or did experience that. Maybe everybody did coming through 2020. But in 2020, I got divorced. Yes, I was going to. I had been with him for 18 years. So it was literally the first date I went on. I've never been on, like my boyfriend right now is the second man I've ever been on a date with.

Wow, I didn't know that. Wow, that's a maze. Pretty wild. But what I'm seeing in real time and it like, how often we think, and this is going to sound, I don't know, however many think like, this is what life is, and then you go through something, hopefully we just went through this globally, but you go through something that shakes that, and you realize, like, oh, wait, I can redefine my life at any moment. I can change the way that I see things or do things even in my relationship. You know what he does for a living.

And it's not a normal job. And it involves a lot of travel, like a lot. And even that is very interesting for me to wrap my brain around. Like at first, I was sort of like, well, how is this going to work? Because I only know one way of being in a relationship with someone. And now I'm like, or you can reframe the way you see this. Like how lucky are you? First of all, he's amazing.

He's super hot. But also. He is. I already can test. But also, like, what a cool job. And what sort of adventures are we going to get to have because of the travel and all of those things? And I'm reframing how that looks.

Even sort of reframing, we all did this with work. And I know you've worked from home, but for most people, that was a new experience last year. And now I feel like suddenly business owners besides me are like, wait, do I need an office? I don't think I need an office. I mean, I need a studio, but I don't need everything I thought I needed to do life in a certain way.

So I'm really loving the redefinition of how I'm gonna show up in the world. And like you said, discovering what that means. I also think coming out of 2019, I'm going to show up in the world. And like you said, discovering what that means. I also think coming out of 2019, 2019 was the most insane, constantly on the road, speaking all the time. I don't know if you've had seasons like that. And a second book in a row comes out and press tours and just its madness.

It was untenable. It was not something I could have kept doing. And it was also the most financially successful year of my life. And what I love is the reminder, I want to acknowledge that in 2020, so many awful hard things happen for so many people, lost jobs, lost businesses, lost family members. There were so many pieces, lost jobs, lost businesses, lost family members.

Like, there was so many pieces of that that were brutal. But as a human, having gone through a lot of really hard stuff in my childhood, I really do live my life trying to figure out how an experience can be for me. Like, how can this experience, what can I learn from even the hardest seasons? And so I'm looking at 2020 and I'm grateful for the knowledge or the reminder

that it can all be taken away. It can all be taken away. The business that you thought couldn't be touched, the speaking career that you thought was amazing, your health, your relationship, that all of these foundations I had in my life were eviscerated in 2020. And I will, because I know this about myself, I will hold that knowledge for the rest of my life,

that like I'm going to be so grateful that I get to sit in this room with you because there were 18 months that I didn't get to sit in a room and like talk to friends. I'm a little worried, I don't know how you feel about this, but I feel like human nature. Is it everyone wants to forget what we just went through? I mean, I, you know, if you go to an airport and if you've been to an airport in the last month, it's wild. They are packed. People are like, I'm going on vacation. I'm living my life and I get it. But at the same time, there were beautiful pieces. We did slow down, we were more present.

We spent time with our family, we called our grandma, we did these things, and I just don't wanna forget the redefining and the shifting and all of these things that we learned last year. That's my big thing going forward. It's like, just hold this. Mm-hmm. And so I was actually gonna follow up with that, but I think you answered it.

That's how you process the idea that the lesson you said you learned was that everything had been lost at any moment. Which can feel like a very overwhelming, painful thought for a lot of people and it is, in a valid way. But you're saying that the way you hold that door is saying, let's not forget what we did get. Is that my guess? This is precious.

This is like, let's hold this. Let's be conscious of this. It was actually a big part of what I wrote about in the last book, because unfortunately, I've experienced a lot of loss. I've lost a lot of people I love in my life. And when you go through, when you lose someone in death, I've experienced a lot of loss. I've lost a lot of people I love in my life. When you lose someone in death, I think you're always

reminded of how short life is and that it can be taken. And so fast, and you don't expect it. And so I think you're more, when you come out the other side of grief like that, you're more aware to say, I love you every time to give people hugs, to look them in the eye to be conscious of those moments. And that's what I'm hoping coming through last year that I just don't miss. Like I remember the first time I have a very close group of best girlfriends and they are

my sisters, my squad, my like everything. And I went through however many months, we all did where we were in lockdown and I couldn't see them. And I will never forget. We all met up in Palm Springs. So I had seen them last at the beginning of March and it was July. And I know there are people who went longer than that. And so I'm conscious of how blessed I am. But I remember coming out of the Palm Springs Airport and my three best girlfriends are waiting there and just running and holding them and sobbing. Because we just hadn't been together and I just don't want to miss that. I just don't want to lose those pieces.

I even thought this, I mean this newer relationship, it's like five months. And I was telling them today, I was like, I want us, we're both big journalists. I'm a big journalist. We're so cool. We both journal every day. It's a big part of our morning routine. And I was like, I want us both to journal

what it feels like at five months. Because it already feels different than it did at two months, and I don't want to lose this. Because I know what it feels like to be in a relationship for 18 years and lose pieces because of kids and life and hardships and pain and all of this stuff that you lose, like I'm gonna sound so cheesy right now and that's okay.

But when we first started, I love how you keep saying that. You promised to go live. It's not like embarrassed. So when we first started dating, well first of all, I'll just tell you this because it's great. We're not dating. We were friends.

He lives in Austin, and it was just supposed to be this friend that we got coffee and we would go walk around the lake. That was like, we were just friends. And both of us were not, we're just wanting nothing. And then we would go have, we would get coffee and we would walk around the lake, and then I would get back to my car and it had been like four and a half hours.

And I was like, that's weird. That's what a good friend this is. And then I just started to feel like, oh my god, I think I have a crush. Like I'm eight. It was so lame, whatever. But when we first started dating, I remember I was so embarrassing, but I would literally, like I would look at his eyes and I would just like, like have a panic attack and I was just like, he's so beautiful and his eyes are so beautiful

and I'm just like lost in his eyes if he would be like, are you okay? And I'm like, what? I couldn't even hear what he said. And yesterday I was like, oh my God, when is the last time that I looked at his eyes and freaked out about how beautiful they are. And I know that sounds whatever,

but I just thought it's just like being conscious of these things, being conscious of my daughter's four and she's so sassy and she like puts her hand on her hip and she's like got an opinion and it's not, she's adorable and honestly, I'm so screwed when she's a teenager, but I just wanna be conscious of this stuff because life is speeding back up so fast and I don't want to miss it.

I'm Jay Shetty, and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hot some minds on the planet. Oprah, everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant. The results don't really matter.

It's the figuring out that matters. Kevin Haw. It's not about us as a generation at this point. It's about us trying our best to create change. Lumin's Hamilton. That's for me being taken that moment for yourself each day, being kind to yourself, because I think for a long time,

I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity to learn. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys. And the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on-purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon.

I'm Dr. Romani and I am back with season two of my podcast Navigating Narcissism. Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. In our first season we heard from Eileen Charlotte, who was loved bomb by the Tinder swindler. The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money he took. But I am here to help. As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify the narcissist in your life. Each week you will hear stories from survivors

who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships. Listen to navigating narcissism on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there. There's just this sexy vibe and Montreal, this pulse, this energy. What was meant is seen as a very snotty city. People call it Bos Angeles. New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay. A great way to get to know a place

is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Newton and not lost as my new travel podcast where a friend and I go places, see the sights, and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. We're kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party. It doesn't always work out. I would love that, but I have like a Cholala

who is aggressive towards strangers. I love you dogs. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm gonna die alone when I'm traveling. But I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too.

And also, we get to eat as much... I love you too. My ex a lot of therapy goes behind that. You're so white, I love you too. And also we get to eat as much as we can see here. I love you too. Might have a lot of therapy goes behind that. You're so white. I love it. Listen to not lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. There's this. Have you ever read the artist's way? Yes, I do. I'm Cameron. So she has this quote which I'm going to butcher right now. But like basically that the quality of your life is the quality of your ability

to pay attention, to pay attention to the details and to see all the little things that are happening around you. So that's my goal. That's a great lesson. That was a beautiful information for all of us, the way you were sharing that. I think we were all thinking about like, what am I going to miss? So what am I going to forget? Right.

Or like, what is it, the law of familiarity? Yeah. That it happens so often that you just take it for granted. Yes. We have a mutual friend who has a really, and I'm not going to say his name, but I'll tell you later, but like, he's a really insane house. You're in the Hollywood Hills. He helps just absolutely insane.

And I remember going over there for the first time and he knows why I've worked so hard and this is like such a celebration of how hard they worked and it's the most insane view I've ever seen in LA like ridiculous. And I remember walking in the first time and being like what the hell like what on earth is he's like exactly. You know exactly no, exactly. You know what I'm talking about, right? It's really a lot of us. He's like, you're not exactly right. I'm like, you're not exactly right.

So I'm like walking through with them, they're like, yeah, and it's whatever. And he's like, and just I feel like what I'm most nervous about is the day that I walk into this living room and that view doesn't take my breath away. And the only way to counteract that is to be conscious of not wanting to have that happen. Yes. You know, I think this with like interacting with fans or readers or listeners of your podcast, if you've ever had those moments where maybe you're tired

or you're on press tour, just something's happening where you're like, you're depleted. And you maybe are like, oh, I've had those moments where I'm like, oh, I have to go do a book signing right now, right? And I make myself remember. I make myself remember the first 25 book signings where two people came and I was related to one of them, right? Like I make myself remember what it feels like

to sit at that table and have nobody come up and ask you, or nobody cares about your book, nobody wants to read, and like, you've worked so hard, because if I can put myself back into those places, I will always be conscious of appreciating these. Yeah, I love that. And it is, you know, this is, we know this, but we still don't get it right. Tomorrow is going to be the three year mark of me moving to LA. Oh, really?

Yeah, so I've been in the States for five years. And I hope every day, and I do this right now, but again, what you're saying, I drive through LA streets, and people think it was always interesting. People always just now, but again, what you're saying, I drive through LA streets, and people think it was always interesting. People always just like, oh, why do you live in LA? It's superficial or materialistic, whatever. And I'm like, I live here because I get to see

blue skies every morning. Right, beautiful. I didn't get that in London. I know what that feels like. It barely rains. I can wear anything I want every day. I don't have to think about carrying an umbrella. Right.

And I was like, I look at the palm trees every day in like the mirror through my car. Yes. And I was like, I live in a place that I would have dreamed to go on vacation. Right. And so there's such a like appreciation for nature and the heights today I went on a hike around. We have a hike close to where we live.

Yeah. And it was just like, that to me is how I want to feel. And I hope I feel like that forever. But you're right, the only way you feel like that forever is by not forgetting. Yes. And so I think everyone right now, I want you to sit down. I want you to take a moment to do what Rachel has just said. And take a moment to just ask yourself, what am I scared of forgetting?

Oh, good one. Yeah. What am I scared of forgetting? Yeah. From this last 12 months, it's been painful for all of us. I've lost people. Rachel has said she's lost people. We've had family friends and mentors and people that we've lost.

What are you scared of forgetting that was a gift at this time? I think that's such a beautiful reflection for people to do. Yeah. And I'm so glad you shared that with us because we do need to hear it again and again. Yeah, I mean, I think another, this is sort of going back to an earlier thing you said about not looking at your phone in the morning.

Probably the greatest practice in my life and I've done it for a decade is journaling every single morning. And a lot of times, those are where I remember. It's that very conscious moment of, I mean, this is a Julia Cameron thing too, but doing the morning pages. So having to fill a certain amount of pages every single morning and sometimes you have great things to say and sometimes you're just like, it's cold.

I'm tired, you know, you can't sit down. Think but those are when I have those detailed moments. And for the longest time, I never reread the journals and I've started doing that every time I get to the end of a journal, I'll start at the beginning and read all the pages. Wow. How many do you have now? A lot. Wow, that's cool. I have a lot. Yeah.

And it's such a beautiful collection for me of just life and what was happening and how I was feeling. I heard someone say recently, she was like, you'll never get to be with this version of yourself again. And I just thought that was so beautiful. I heard it at a time when I started dating this person. And I didn't have a lot of experience and I felt so nervous. I can get on stage and speak to 18,000 people, zero problem. Hang it out with Oprah. We're all good.

But going on a date, I felt like I was going to die like I felt like I was going to have a heart attack I didn't know how to act I was so awkward. I didn't feel like myself. I just it was it was a joke and I was really hard on myself Internally about that like how can you be this person who's achieved all these things and you can't sit and have dinner with this man without acting like an idiot? And I was so frustrated and I heard that quote and I just loved it.

Like, oh, you're never gonna be with this nervous, giddy version of yourself again. You're never, if it doesn't work out with this person and you date someone else, that time surely you won't be as nervous as you were here. So could you just allow yourself to be graceful and appreciate this version of you, who she is today? And that really helped me to sort of sit in the process.

But if you're already journaling about what you don't want to forget, I can't, there's no greater practice I have in my life is just writing down the thoughts. I love that. Yeah, and for anyone who doesn't see themselves as a writer, try because it will come out. And if you really can't, then what I do is voice note. Try voice record myself all the time. I find it easier to talk, find it easier to listen to myself.

I can listen to myself on 1.5 or two if I'm listening back. And I find like talking out loud to myself helps me remember things in a really, you know, visceral way. That's awesome. And so, yeah, I think journaling is a huge practice writing or audio, whichever one works for whoever's listening. But, you know, you were doing my, you know, my relationships and, you know, people have gone through so many big relationships, transitions are in COVID. You went to a huge run. I feel like transitions are hard, but that's what life is made of. Yes.

Life is made of transitions. Yeah. Transitions are usually where we feel we need the most help. It's where we're at our weakest, where we struggle, like whether you're moving house, getting married, getting divorced, breaking up, meeting someone new. All of these are transitions. Yeah.

And these are the most life-defining moments. Yes. So how have you learned to transition better as life is progressed? Because we never perfected, we never get it right. Yes. How have you got better at transitioning in life? Do you feel you have what is help to do? I think I've gotten so much better because I don't rush it.

That is the biggest lesson I have learned in 38 years is how I gone through a divorce 10 years ago. I would have pushed myself to like, okay, get over it, figure it out. It's been four weeks and I really was so proud of myself in the divorce that I let myself sit in the pain and it was so painful and it was so hard and I let myself feel every emotion. I let myself feel super sad. I let myself feel very angry at him

and very angry at myself. And I just let it all sort of flow through me and kind of almost like watching yourself experience those emotions instead of like drowning inside them. And that was, I think, so much more healing. And I think is a huge reason that I can't speak for him and how he processed. But I know for me me that's a huge reason for why I think our relationship is so healthy and good and why we're able to transition our kids so well through the process. So for me, I think in transition, just allowing yourself to like be in it is a big one. And I also, when you were talking about transition, I was also thinking, it's not just the transitions

that sort of make us, it's also points of tension. It's areas of tension, which essentially, if you are going through a change, that's gonna feel tense. But those areas of tension in our life are either going to make us someone better or we're going to get worse? There is no, there's no sort of stasis. There's no, I think a lot of people think they can hang out in a comfort zone. But you're either being pushed and becoming better or you're being pushed and becoming worse.

And if we can, I think there's a lot, like if we can sort of not embrace tension, well actually, yeah, like my tattoo says embrace the suck because I really do believe that the best version of me comes on the other side of the hardest seasons. And that feels like transition or change or whatever it looks like is just allowing myself to be like, we're going to embrace this. We're going to embrace all the parts of this and hopefully come out the other side as a better version of me.

I do really believe that I assume that you are like a manifest or goal setting, like you have an idea of like who you want to be in your life, right? And not even necessarily what you want to achieve, but just like the kind of man that you want to be. And I think that when we call our shot, like that, when we start to dream and envision and have a plan for where we want to go, I do think the universe shows up to aid us in that process, but it isn't necessarily an easy journey or a comfortable one.

I think that most of the time people call the shot and then everything goes to hell in a hand basket. Everything gets hard, everything feels impossible. And they're like, they use that as an excuse or they see that as an example of, oh, well, that goal wasn't for me or that dream wasn't meant to be mine. When the reality I think is that the universe was like,

oh, no, no, no, no, you said you wanted that thing. And so we've put things in your path to make you strong enough to climb that mountain. Like you had to go through these things to have that, but you just, you gave up here. You quit because you thought that the hardship meant that it wasn't supposed to be yours. When really I think that the hardship was meant to grow you into who you're meant to become.

Absolutely. Is that what kept you going when you were writing five books? Right. Because that's just, that to me is the perfect example of you living what you just said. Right. That to me is such a great, you know, it's like when I look at you and everything you've achieved and all the amazing work you do to me, when I remember reading that story years ago, and just going, wow, like six books, like that is not a joke, like there's nothing about that that is easy.

You know, we talk about like, you know, it's like, oh, and I think a lot of people can relate to this today because we live in the world of like, I put out three videos and none of them went viral, so like what I do, we live in this world of like, oh, but I've been posting every day for a month and nothing's happened or, and I feel people have this. How did you write five books and keep going?

Was it just that you loved it and you were passionate where you getting better? Like, what was, what kept you going to get to that point? I think all those things, right? I did love it. I was very passionate about doing it and I felt like I was getting better. And I honestly think I maybe have a different view

of failure than other people do. I think that it's one of the things people are most terrified of in the world, especially in my community, so many women in my community petrified of failing. And I always think like, if you can understand that 99% of the time, you're not afraid of failing, you're afraid of other people seeing you fail. And that's about your ego, that's not about your work.

And so for me, I have a really different definition of what it is to fail. And I get it wrong, I freaking get it wrong all the time. Like I, I'm, oh gosh, back in April, says the thing on social media that was so hurtful to so many people. And I was devastated. I'm still devastated.

I could cry forever. You know, I've texted about this the last couple of months. But I also think that like, I have to get it wrong. And I hope, I freaking hope that people see me get it wrong and then keep trying to learn and do better. Like I think as honestly as a white woman in America, I have to acknowledge when I mess up, when my privilege is showing,

understand that I didn't understand and do the work to figure it out. But I feel like there is this sort of way of being right now that it's like if you get it wrong, like go just quit. Just stop. Just if your book flopped, then don't write another one. If you put out five pieces of content and nobody cared, then that should be it.

If you say something that you shouldn't have said, like, but my God, how are we going to improve? How will we evolve as human beings if we're not willing to get it wrong? And honestly, as painful as that experience was, and it was so painful because my worst nightmare is hurting someone, especially without intention. Like all of that, but I freaking,

I am a different mom because of that experience. I've had my two of my best girlfriends or black women and have had to have the hardest, most painful conversations with them and how that has evolved our friendship because of that, what it looks like to have your kid come home from middle school and be like, oh, I saw YouTube video where someone was making fun of you.

Like that as a mom, that's devastating. But then, okay, great, let's have a conversation about what it looks like for us to have privilege and own that. And like all of it, it's a big painful like mistake. And I could see that as a failure, and I could literally, and I think plenty of people do, just stop trying to learn or close themselves off. And man, I'm never going to get better as a human being if I don't go through that process, all of us.

So I guess I just have, I really, oh, this is gonna sound like a bumper sticker, but I really, I only think it's a failure if I didn't learn from the process. And that goes for books or content or podcasts or relationships, any of it. When I got divorced, I got such awful backlash from so many people. And you know, that my marriage failed.

I'm like, my marriage is a massive success. Four beautiful kids, four kids through foster care, 18 years together, like beautiful memories grew so much, dear friends, still raising a family to get, like, that's not a failure. Maybe that's your definition of failure. That's not mine. And so I think that, I guess maybe the advice I would give

in this is if we could all be more graceful with ourselves and redefine like earnestly and humbly, go into situations where you're really your intention is to grow. I mean, I told you, my number one value in life is growth. And I will tell you that when you call that shot, you know, I've for years, I've, I've, I have, I'm a nerd. And so I have written down all my core values. Um, but if that's your, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's your defining core value. It's the same sort of thing. Like, all right, the universe is gonna give you some opportunity to grow. But yeah, I think that that is the most important piece is that you have to redefine what failing is. I mean, failing is getting to the end of my life and not having tried and not having written these stories down in my head because I was worried about what people would think of me for wanting to write about superheroes or wanting to make a

movie. Like who freaking cares? Because I think that when you get to the end of your life, you're the only one there. It's just you. And I don't want to get there and think like, oh, I could have done that thing or I might have had that or maybe there was more work for me to do, but I was so scared of what people would think or are so scared of getting it wrong that I just thought it was better not to try.

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. I think it's, yeah. It's amazing just hearing someone go through a difficult time personally, professionally and then to share in the way you have. And, you know, it's hard because it's that balance between what you've just said, is it's that balance between being humble enough to learn from others. But there's a part of you when you're creating

to not get tied up in people's opinions. So it's like knowing, like, for example, when you make a mistake, to be able to learn from it, and you know, I think about it, I've made so many mistakes, I'm not perfect. And often when you're trying to teach the challenges that, yeah, you're on a pedestal now, and it's difficult to then make mistakes. Right. But we're trying to learn as we're trying to help, and there's no, you know, like, I don't

think, I don't think anyone on the planet is perfect. Yeah. And I don't think we should aspire for it. And I don't think there's anyone who gets anything right all the time. Yeah. And I think my best girlfriend, we talked a lot about this. She does a ton of work in racial reconciliation

and understanding diversity. And it's where her training is in. And she had this great line when She was like Rachel there's a difference between your intent and your impact. Those are two completely different things. Like your intent was this but the impact was this and in you not knowing that the impact would be this that is the definition of your privilege. And like you not being aware of that thing. So there was,

that's so well explained. Right, right, right. That's a really great definition. Because I think what I definitely had a moment of getting trapped in this narrative, and I'm sure other people do too, is you're like, but I wasn't, that wasn't what I, and it's like no, no, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't even matter what you said, it matters what they heard, right? And like, if you care about the community and what you're trying to do and the work that you're putting out in the world, and you did hurt someone, it doesn't matter what the intent was. It only matters what it felt like to them.

And so I have to own that and hold space for it and learn from it and grow and all of that. But I'm curious then how, what that looks like for you as a creator, I was talking to Trent about this too. I think a lot of us in this space, like, we've all been in social for a long time. We all built our careers in it. I think what is maybe hard to understand, unless you were back at the beginning, is I'm guessing for you, I know this is true for me

in Trent. We sort of, almost like a comedian working out a joke at the local bar, we worked out our bigger form content in social posts. So you would sort of like, have an idea, and you'd put it out there, you'd throw it out, you didn't give it a ton of thought, you'd just be like, here's this thought, right?

And then based on the feedback, maybe you'd have a dialogue with your community or something would like go wild, you were like, whoa, I wasn't expecting that to go viral. It was sort of how we learned what to do longer form or what to like evolve and make bigger. And that doesn't feel like it is a possibility anymore. I don't know if you feel like that.

Yeah, first of all, when we first started, you didn't know, you didn't try to make something go viral. No way. You just, you create something that you really value and believe in and you like and you enjoy and it's, and you put it out there and then you see the feedback and then people like it or, you know, whatever they don't like it. And to me, it was always, you know, I was always looking out for like, where's the positive energy? Where's the positive comments? Because I'm trying

to put, so my intent was positive. And when the impact was positive, more than critical or like, oh, we don't like your hair or you pronounce words weird or you don't know what you're talking about. Who are you? Like when it was that kind of stuff, I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna keep trying my best with my intent and hope. And I think that now I'm trying to do that more and more. And I think what I've, and you've said this

and this is where I think we're aligned on this, is I've gone from living a life where all that mattered to me growing up was being educated because that's how I was raised. And I was very fortunate enough to go to great educational institutions and none of them were paid for it. They were just exam-based and study-based and academic.

And then I went off and lived as a monk and that was completely the opposite because I gave up all my job offers and work and then I was a monk for three years. And then I've left, went back into the world of business and then now married and an entrepreneur and everything else. And I feel the most myself today

with my hair like this. And I'm just, I, because you're joking, rather with my hair like this. I was a drunken rather, my hair like this wearing the clothes that I wear, living in the way. I feel the most myself today. Yeah. And there's a bit of monk in there. There's a bit of management in there.

There's a bit of business in there. There's a bit of academic in there. There's a bit of hopeless romantic in there, which I've always been my whole life. And that's who I am. And I just want to, I know that I struggle with having to choose because I don't want to choose it. So I'm trying, I think, is the answer to be more and more putting out all elements of myself. Yeah. And that can often

be difficult for people because people go, well, Jay, you're the monk. How are you, the entrepreneur? Right. I'm like, I used to be a monk. And this is what I learned from being a monk that I practice today every day. monk, and this is what I learned from being a monk that I practice today every day. But hey, this is what I love about entrepreneurship and business and strategy, and I love both. And I always say to people, like you can't have strategy without sincerity

and you can't have spirituality without strategy and you can't have data without intuition. You need both. Yes. And I feel like I'm being forced You need both. Yes. And I feel like I'm being forced sometimes to pick. Yes. Like, Jay, are you gonna be the monk or are you gonna be this? And I'm like, well, I am?

They're a part of me that are still monk-like. I'm not a monk, of course, I'm married. They're a part of me that I always say you can think like a monk and not live like a monk. They're a part of me that still think like a monk. But they're a part of me that think like an entrepreneur or think like a strategist. live like a monk. There are parts of me that still think like a monk, but there are parts of me that think like an entrepreneur or think like a strategist and that makes me happy and I feel fulfilled and I feel real honest to myself.

Yeah. So I don't know if that even answers your question, but I'm allowing myself to be, like it's what you're saying. If I want to, and I'm not gonna do this, don't worry anyone. If I wanted to be an athlete, like a soccer player, which has always been my number one love in terms of sport,

I want to go and be a soccer player. Like I'm going to try. I'm not going to try. But I'm going to try because if that's what I want to be and express myself in that way, then why not? Yeah. So anyway, I've got to a point where I don't want to limit myself as to how I express myself. And I'm trying to reconnect with that.

I'm trying to be comfortable with that. And it's uncomfortable because often you feel forced and squashed. And I think that people feel that even outside of social, they definitely feel that in their very real lives, that it's sort of like, well, you're an accountant. You're an accountant. Yeah, why would you think you can also play guitar? Like, why?

And the reality is that the most beautiful versions of ourselves are their whole. There are many parts of us. It's not just this sort of one area. And I do think that there is this desire on social or this thing that comes through. And this exists with the community. And it also exists with the algorithm, frankly, that they want you to stay in your lane. Yes, yes.

They want you, oh, but if you and I put something on social and we're using words that the algorithm is used to seeing us use, that's gonna get shown to more people than if you're talking about work or business or whatever. And so there's all of these things that, again, it's these points of tension. Yes.

Yeah, you could be really happy. Like I could keep writing, grow, wash your face, over and over and over, and make a crap ton of money and have that be my life forever. And there are people who do that, and that's amazing and awesome. But because I started, and writing was never supposed to be my job, I never want it to be about what is gonna make the most money

or what is the box that I can check. I mean, my last book was, I mean, God bless the publisher, was like, okay, you wanna write a book about grief and pain when I'm known for writing things that are funny. And so it's like, you're gonna come out of nowhere with this book about all of these hard things. And that book did nothing compared to what

the two books before it did. But I would rather, oh, there are Casey Musgraves has this great line in one of her songs where she says, I'd rather lose for who I am than win for who I ain't. Like I'd rather like get it wrong in your eyes, but I showed up as myself, then keep doing the thing that the world wants me to do.

So I love that. And I think that as a fan of yours, and I think like anybody in your community, like you wanna see the whole, you wanna see all the parts of it, right? Like the people we admire really, we wanna see all of who they are as a person, not just like what's the PR spin on your life. And my biggest thing of that is like, I think when you allow yourself to have that opportunity,

you allow others in your life. And when you allow others to have that opportunity, you allow yourself. Yes. And I think the more, you know opportunity, you allow yourself. Yes. And I think the more, you know, does that make sense? Yes. Usually what happens is we project. So if we feel we're not allowed to be all of ourselves,

we don't let anyone, including our kit. And by the way, this doesn't just transfer over to your partner or a friend or someone who follows you on social media. It transfers over to everyone in your life. If you can't suddenly not live a value, right, you either live a value in it transfers and cascades all over your life, or you don't live a value, and it doesn't cascade. And so if you live the value that I don't allow myself

to be fully myself, you're not gonna let your wife, your husband, your partner, your kids, your parents, your aunts, your uncles, whoever it is, be themselves fully. Or alternatively, if you go around saying, well, that person is that person and they're not that, you're then blocking your own self from being two things. And I think that's where it always hits me by,

I'm like, me and my friend were talking yesterday. And we were having a very frank and honest conversation about another one of our mutual friends who's struggling. And it was so easy because those conversations so often roll into judgment and criticism and feeling holier than thou. And like, oh, at least we don't have that problem. Yeah. And it's crazy because you can do that like people you know. And me and him just sat down and I said, look, what I want to do actually to grow this conversation and you said a value is growth.

I said, I actually want to talk about all my flaws right now in this area because I was like, only if we do that, will I not walk away from this conversation thinking I'm better? Yes. Because if I think I'm better, guess what, I don't have to become or grow anymore. Right.

Because I already think I made it just by talking about someone. Yeah. And so we spend the rest of the conversation really talking about our own challenges and impediments and flaws in that particular area we were discussing, which is real, I was like, I'm just, that person just doesn't know about my flaws. Right?

Well, I think this too with kids is, it has always been so important for me as a mom to give my kids autonomy over themselves. Like, they can wear whatever they want. They sell fun to watch. They sell fun to watch. They sell after sale. They're good.

Sorry, yeah. No, they're good. Like my oldest is in middle school, and he is so himself. Like, he wore a revolutionary wig to his school pictures. He like shops it, the the Goodwill and like, where's funny to you? And I just never had that kind of confidence at 14 years old.

He's so himself. And I was really conscious of that. I wanted it for them, but mostly I felt like if they had autonomy over who they were, they would give it to others. So I didn't, I grew up in a really religious, yeah. Like I grew up in a really religious home and environment and city. And it was very much like we know the right way to be. And if you're not this way, you're wrong. And I just never wanted my kids to have that. I want them to believe that everybody is valuable and good and cool and has potential

and gets to do and be whoever they are. So yeah, when he was like, can I get a wig for, I was like, yes, every year, this should just be the thing, man, like let's go. And that starts there with wigs and autonomy and then leads to forgiveness. Like if I can forgive myself, I'm more likely to forgive others. But I forgive others, I'm more likely to forgive myself. And that just becomes a value of life. And I think that the mind always wants to like, pick holes and do this and do that.

And it's like, but we do the same with ourselves. That's why we all judge ourselves so much. Well, to be totally honest, I was brutally hard on myself when that happened. Like I was maybe the lowest I've ever been in my adult life, I'm for real. And I, because I just felt so ashamed, like I can't imagine hurting someone.

Like you know, you know how much this work takes and how hard this is and showing up and doing all these things with the intention of putting goodness out into the world and positivity and the worst for me was feeling like I've worked so hard to create a safe space for my community and having people who felt like it wasn't safe anymore.

Like because I should have been away that was different than what felt safer right to them. And I just was, I was devastated, I was heartbroken. And I spent for real, like a few weeks, just like, wallowing. There's no other way to say it. I was just wallowing in misery and so ashamed, so mad at myself.

And then one day I was like, this is not helpful. This is not helping anybody. Like you're just feeding in to your own narrative, you're feeling sorry for yourself, you're like spinning out, you're all of this. And so you have to own, yes, like in life sometimes you will make a mistake, you will hurt someone else. Like you have to own this, you have to hold space for this. And you have to learn from this experience or it was all wasted.

Like it was all for nothing. All this pain, all of these people that you heard, this way that you felt, embarrassing your kids, embarrassing your best friends, like all of this stuff. You have to hold this and learn from it or it was for nothing. And it took, I mean, I just, I wanna say that

because I don't wanna do anything like, oh, you flip a switch and then you're fine. Yeah. That's why I was talking earlier about transitions for me or about allowing myself to feel it. Points of tension. Yeah, I needed a few weeks to be a weenie and then I had to, like, okay, time to grow.

Like, time to learn. Yeah, which makes sense. That's what you're saying, that that level of sitting in the pain is all proportionate to how big you think the impact ended up being. Like, yes. If something has massively impacted others, it is going to take a deeper, longer process,

a reflection to grow through. And so it's in proportion to the impact. Yes. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships,

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Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon Rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh wow, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao, the tree that gives us chocolate. But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen, or tasted. I've never wanted us to have a gun fight. I mean, you saw the stacks of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate.

We're all lost. It was madness. It was a game changer. People quit their jobs. They left their lives behind, so they could search for more of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle, and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building armed with machetes. And we've heard all sorts of things that, you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all these for a damn bar of chocolate. Listen to obsessions, wild chocolate,

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And I think in those situations, I don't know if you've ever gone through something like this, everybody wants, like, what are you gonna say or what's the statement or make a podcast or whatever, and I just, just kept telling everyone, like, it would be disingenuous.

It would be at the time. Right, like if I don't actually learn from, I can't show you what you need to see, right? Like I can write a perfectly, you know, appropriate response, right? We can all do that. We can write the thing and put it out in the world or I can actually learn.

I can actually grow and you can see, I hope, the evolution as I continue to grow as a woman and a sister and a friend and a mama, like, I want you to see through action, like who I am not, because I just really quickly gave you the answer. I just, yeah, so it was not a fast process and it did involve a lot of self, like, yeah, you're gonna have to forgive yourself because you're never gonna get better in this and if you don't. Yeah, thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's what happens, right? It's like the world's forcing us to provide an answer, but it's actually the behavior that is what we're working on. And that's always what I found. Like for me, it's always been about like, well, what do I need to change? What do I need to figure out?

What do that's always been my focus? Because that's what actually is, what the universe is trying to tell me to do. Yeah. So. Well, it's sort of that there's some quote, and I don't know who said it and I'm going to butcher this one too, but it's essentially like an apology without action or an apology

without change is empty. It's not real. You know, if you have someone in your life who is, I think we do this in relationships all the time, they're like, they say they're sorry. I'm sorry that I did this thing but there's no change. They're not, then say they're sorry. I'm sorry that I did this thing, but there's no change. Then it's not actually real. I think it's a really powerful thing to process whether you're guiding your kids through issue

with their friends or you're dealing with this in your marriage or whatever it looks like. If you continue to do the same thing that someone has said, this is hurting me, I'm'm gonna continue to make mistakes. In my life, of course, I'm gonna continue to make mistakes because I'm gonna keep trying. And if you're continuing to try, you're gonna continue to make mistakes.

It's just what it is. But if you've told someone, like if my community says to me, Rachel, you said this thing and this was hurtful and this made us feel these ways and I don't change based on that, then I was never really sorry. If you told your partner that when they lose their temper

or they do these things or they have too much to drink or they're smoking or whatever, and that it is hurtful to you and it's sincere and you have a conversation and they say they're sorry and they keep doing it again and again and again. It's not a real apology. And so I do think that there's something that we need to hold on to of like,

what does it look like in our lives to actually make change based on what we said or who we said we didn't want to be? Like it's as important to know who you don't want to be as this person that you do want to reach for. Yeah, I remember I started in my spiritual community. I started mentoring young men quite early on

and I remember saying to all of them, and I still say this to people when I coach them today or when I work with people, like one of the first things I say to them, after we've agreed to work together or connect is always just know that I will let you down. And it was really useful to me to see their response. And I'll say, I will let you down, not because I don't care, not because I don't love you, not because I don't

want you to be your best, not because I want that to happen, but because I'm human. That will happen. And if you're okay with that, then this is real. But if you have some other expectation, then this is actually not gonna work. And it's been really interesting to me. I remember when I first used to say that, I was probably like 22 or something. And there were some people who changed their mind

about me being their mentor based on that. And I used to be like, this is great. Because now we know, at least we're both safe. Like, they're safe now because I've told them the reality of it. And I'm safe now because I feel, and so that's always been my approach to it, is just being okay with that. Yeah. And putting it out there and just, you know, not having any other false expectations.

Yeah. I'm curious. I'm, I have just a question for you. I was curious as you were talking about that because I know you do mentor and you coach a lot and that mixed with what you're doing in the wider community on social and with videos and pockets and all of it.

How do you maintain your own energy in the midst of giving so much to other people. Yeah, that's a great question. You're like a million dollar question. No, no, no, it's, as in this is the obvious answer, but it's true and it's ongoing, like it's everything, right? So me and my wife had a conversation this weekend and she was just like to me, and my wife's graded this

and she was just like, I think you need to recommit to these practices, like to do them, do you have to do them better. And my ego was just like, oh, Robby, you just wanna be like, well, I do all this and I do this. And I was just like, no, take it seriously. And then I recommitted to set in practices

and behaviors that I may not have been doing with as much depth and I feel so much better for it. And so I think having a wife that is really grounded and rooted is huge, and so that's just a blessing and I lucked out, but having that is so important. I think another thing for me, which is probably like the biggest thing is, I still speak a lot to my monk mentors, and they are just so not interested in anything

I do externally. And I remember one of my monk teachers, he said to me, he asked me a question, he said, what are you up to? This was probably about, I don't know, maybe like three years ago. And he was like, well, what are you doing? And so I gave him a long list of all the cool stuff I was doing. And he said something really powerful to me, he said, you know, for all of this, I have no expectation.

And he said, he said, I have no expectation for what you do in all of this. He goes, I simply demand the purity of your heart. And it was just like, it was one of those moments where like my heart sank, like, and it was like a punch in the gut. And I was just like, but it's so much easier to give you all this.

Like, it's so much easier to offer all of this. And I think that happens in relationships. I think at least the men that I know are always thinking, oh, but I'm doing all of this. Yes. And their partner's just like, but I just want to feel love. Right. I want to feel seen.

I want to feel heard. And the men in my life, when me is very easy to be like, no, but we're doing all of this. Yes. And so you want to be the magician because that's actually easier. Like, it's actually easier to do that than do this. And so having my monk teachers in my life has been a really great one because they're just so oblivious to everything. And so, above and beyond all of this world, that they're just a good reminder. And I think, like you're right, failures and mistakes keep you on the part. So they're another one, like that's partly why they're there.

And I really spend a lot of time alone. Like I really, that's my biggest one for regenerating energy. And I think people find it uncomfortable because, and I'm really honest with you, I have a friend staying with me right now, who opened the door for you by the way. And he's such a sweet guy, he's been one way. We're open the door for you, by the way. And he's such a sweet guy. He's been like,

Do you only allow beautiful people around you, by the way, because between you and your wife and that guy who opened the door, I was like, what is happening? He's my wife's best, they basically grew up together. Their mom's the best friend. So cool. When he's in LA, he stays with us.

But he's been trying to get us to, so he's always like, can you come visit me? Can you come do this? And I'm always honest with him because he's such a close friend and he lives with us when he's in LA. So I spend plenty of time with him. But I'm always just like, can you come visit me? Can you come do this? And I'm always honest with him because he's such a close friend and he lives with us when he's in LA. So I spend plenty of time with him. But I'm always just like, I can't

because if I got that time that you want me to come and spend with you, I'm gonna take that for myself. Yeah. And it's so awkward and uncomfortable to say to people but I've got so used to it. Today I got a message from someone and there was just like, I'd love to spend more time with you.

And I'm messing them back saying, I would too, but my schedule just won't allow it. Yes, yes. And when it does, I'll reach out. Yeah. And I know you do this. Yes. And it's like, I really love time alone, and I crave it,

and I seek it, and it's such a big part of my DNA that I will recharge alone. I can't recharge around people. And when you all started dating, were you really up front with her about that? Yes. Yeah, I feel like that's so important because it's like, you're establishing those boundaries in the beginning. So there is an expectation of, okay, I have the same way, I love being alone, and so does my, I don't know, I'm referencing the ceiling, so it's not.

So does my boyfriend. Like, he also really likes it. And that was one of the first conversations we had was sort of like, we're going to love this time together. And we're going to be really honest about when we do need to decompress. And there are definitely times where he'll have come back from a trip. And I want to tackle him immediately.

And he'll be like, I need a day. Yes. And it, like, I'm sad because I don't want to see him, but I also totally respect and get it. And that was something that we established from the very beginning. Is that like when you're coaching people, do you ever give advice on if you've never established a boundary and maybe it's being alone or whatever it looks like for you? How do you establish a boundary when you haven't done it before? Yeah, I think it's exactly what you just said. Like it is just a status update.

Like it is like saying, like this is a new thing for me. And by the way, it doesn't mean I love you less. Right. It's saying what it doesn't mean. Yes. As much as it what it means to you. And I think the mistake we do, we say, this means so much to me. Yes. I want you to value it because it's important to me. And we negate how it is important to them. So if we say, oh, how it's relevant to them. So if I had a new update for Rade, and Rade had a new update for me actually today,

but if I had a new update for her, I would say to her, Rade, have this new update and I just want you to know this, there's not me and I don't love you. There's not me and I don't care for you. It doesn't mean that I don't love spending time with you. It just means I'm exhausted. That's what this means.

And that helps someone, rather than saying, you know what, I'm so overworked and I've been doing so much that I need this time. Yes. And that person's going, oh, so you'd rather have that time than time with me. Yes. And that's what they're thinking.

And so you can help the person with their thought process by answering all their unsaid questions without them saying it. Obviously, it doesn't always work out that perfectly. But I think that it's a stay-to-subday and you can change. I think at the beginning of lockdown, Rathi and I had completely different expectations than we've ever had before. I've never lived together for this long in one place.

And so we had to set new boundaries around cleanliness, about chores, about house, all that kind of stuff that we haven't had to do for a long time because we're always moving around. And so I think every time there's a change or a transition or a point of tension, it's because you haven't made someone aware of your new priority and how it affects them. It's the same as us doing things like going on tour or writing a book. I always preempt, I'll always say to it, we've been talking about,

we haven't seen our family for a long time. And so we've been trying to go back to London and me and Rady have been talking about. And I was like, but if we go back then, we have this priority. And so we're thinking ahead, I'm like, just so you know, this is what we plan to do in September.

Yeah. I just don't think there's any substitute for being honest up upfront and resetting your actual needs as opposed to pretending that yeah, that's fine. And then expecting the person to know you're stressed out and then figure it out. And that's a long answer to this. No, and I think it's sort of like a habit or a muscle to build like anything else that if you haven't done it before, it is really hard to learn to say no. And to allow yourself to frustrate people

or have them be disappointed or maybe even hurt their feelings unintentionally because you need to hold that space for yourself. Because I am so with you, if you are doing something where you're serving other people, you're around a lot of other energy or however that is, you have to have that time where you go sort of refill in whatever way makes the most sense for you.

Totally. Because I think that other people will, we see life as we are, not as it actually is. And so even what I think of is like, when I'm going through a hard season, if I'm going through grief, or when I went through the divorce anytime I'm going through something hard, I want to be alone.

I do not want to be around in it. It is how I process. Yes. And I have girlfriends who they process grief or pain in groups. Yes. And so all they want to do in the world is bring me soup or wine or sit with me or talk it out.

And it is so hard to navigate. They're really trying to love you well. And they're trying to love you in the way that makes sense to them. And having to be so clear about thank you and I love you and I promise you I'm going to call when I'm ready. But this is how I need to handle these things. Yes. And you are allowed to do those processes exactly how it works for you. And it's not selfish.

And I think that that's what is put on most of us is that you wanting time alone away from your wife or me wanting time alone away from my kids that that would be a selfless choice because you're not showing up for those other people. When the reality is none of us can serve those we love well if we're depleted. Totally. I feel like I want to and I also want to give my best to people. Right. So you just exhausted and drained. I think about it like Gary Chapman's love languages. Yes. It's almost like this is pain languages. Right. Like how do you process pain? Yes. And like I know that Rady likes to have sp- if we're having an argument, Rady will want to have space and time to reflect. Yeah. And I want to talk it out. Like I'm like, all right, let's figure this out. Yeah, let's figure this out. And she's like, I just don't want to, I need to just think about it.

Like, I just need to reflect and think otherwise I'm going to say something I don't want to say. And whatever it is. And it took me a while to realize that that wasn't because she didn't care. I'd always be like, you don't want to talk about it because you don't care as much as I do. Right. And that's the problem you see as a sign of care.

I go, oh, just because you don't want to talk about it right now, that means you don't care about this relationship as much as I do. Yeah. She's not true. Yeah. You about this relationship as much as I do. Yeah. This is not true. Yeah. You care about it as much as I do. Yeah. That's what you don't want to do.

That's why you're being intentional. Exactly. And I really... What is your love language, by the way? My love language is, okay, so, it's adapted and I've talked about this. So my top love language, and I realized it was from when I was growing up with gift.

And it was because my mom, we didn't have a lot, but when we were growing up on my birthday, my mom would always get me the one gift that I'd always wanted, or yeah. And it was such my mom, we didn't have a lot, but when we were growing up on my birthday, my mom would always get me the one gift that I'd always wanted it all year. And it was such a big moment, and she'd always surprised me. But here's where I go, interesting. I realized that the value was not gifts, it was surprises. Oh, cool.

It wasn't the actual thing. Yes. It was the feeling that someone had thought about me in disguise and then made me feel special. So it was surprise. I put surprise at the top, but it's gifts in the five. Yes. And then the other one has always been words of affirmation.

That's a word of affirmation. It's huge for me. It took me ages for my ego to admit that. Yeah. Because it felt so like, oh, that's so lame. I want to be told. And I was like, no, I actually really like to be told by the people I love, how I make them feel.

Yes. And that's great. Because I'm good at giving words of affirmation to. And I was like, no, I actually really like to be told by the people I love how I make them feel. Yes. And that's great, like because I'm good at giving words of affirmation too, and I want that. So those are my thoughts too. Yeah, I love that. So it's interesting. Mine was words of affirmation forever. And then, however, the sounds, but when my career really exploded beginning of 2018, all I got were words.

Yes. And so it sort of stopped having meaning. I agree. That makes sense. beginning of 2018, all I got were words. And so it sort of stopped having meaning. I agree, that makes sense. And so my number one now is acts of service. Like, if you bring me a cup of coffee, if you help with the dish, like if you just do something that's really helpful, that is, it just makes me feel so taken care of and loved

and appreciated. That's a big one for me. And interestingly, when I first started hanging out with the guy, I was explaining to him what love languages were because he'd never heard of it. Because you know me, I don't know if you do this one. I'm like, what's your any of your number? I'm a three. I'm a three. I'm a three too. I'm a three too.

I'm a three too. I'm a three too. I'm a three too. Okay. I'm a three too. Okay. I'm a three too. So we're walking and I'm trying to explain all these things.

And with leveling, which is you don't need to take a test. You can tell someone in their life on that. So he's like, oh, I'm words of affirmation. So I'm thinking, great. That feels whatever. And then as every time we would hang out, he would's like, oh, I'm worried about formation. So I'm thinking great. That feels whatever. And then as every time we would hang out, he would be like, oh, I saw this and I thought of you or like, oh, you said you like this kind of coffee or whatever every time you show up in my house

with just some little thing. And I was like, no, you're gifts. You're not words. You're gifts because he just did it always and on a random whatever. I like showed up at his house when he was coffee and he acted like I had brought him a million dollars. And I was like, oh, you're gifts, yeah.

But this is actually what you care. I said here's how it. But it's just such a powerful tool for friends or even members of your team to understand how to love them well and lead them well. And doing it for pain too. That's what I think we've uncovered what you're saying today,

like knowing that all when we're in pain. Yes. Rachel needs space, but Rachel's friends need to talk in a group, and this friend needs two friends. This friend needs drinks and a party and ten friends. Like distract, whatever it is. And like we judge how we process pain and how we want to be loved. And it's not self-faceted. It's real. And so, yeah, I'm really glad that we stumbled upon that

because. It's a good one. Maybe that's your next book. Pain languages, yeah. No, I don't, yeah, it's just, I do think there's something about learning how people process pain and being okay with how they want to do it. Yes.

Which is beautiful. And not making that process, not making their process of pain about you. Yes. Because we do do that all the time. It's like you were saying earlier about someone wanting space or someone asking to hold a boundary. And you somehow making that about them and what you need in this process or I think this

a lot in a new relationship because my, do you know about attachment? Yes, okay. Attachment starts starts there. So I'm anxious attachment, which is- There's a voidant, anxious, and whatever is just like chill. The good one, the neutral. There's one more that's meant to be the plug. It's like healthy, I don't know what it's called.

It's one that's meant to be the good one. Right, so we know the one that's there because I'm a void. I'm anxious. And he's like whatever the chill one is, he's just like chill and happy'm a boy. I'm anxious. And he's like, whatever the chill one is, he's just like chill and happy and fine. And I'm anxious about everything. And I do, if you, if you don't know what we're talking about, you're listening to this, you gotta look it up.

It's a great book called Attachment. Attachment. Or attached. Attached. So good, fast read. And it just will really be helpful for you. He would do something or ask for something and I would be like, oh, he doesn't like reading more.

He'd like to send something to whatever. And so what's really helpful for me when I'm having those moments, or just I think this in life, is just to ask, like, act as if, or give the benefit of the doubt, or what if, what they're saying is actually totally truthful now certainly there are times in life where we're interacting with someone in our intuition is telling us this is not a good person there's something wrong here you need to listen to that but I do think when it's sort of my mind running away with me that it has been so helpful to just Rach, act as if this person is good and honest and mature and has done a lot of therapy and is literally just telling you what they need instead of playing games with you. Because you have no reason to believe otherwise. And

that can shut off my anxiety about that moment or me making it about me, that fast. So I'm like, oh yeah, you're being ridiculous. Knock it off. Yeah, no, I think there are certain things like the love languages, attach the attachment styles. Like if you know them in an early stage in a relationship for you and your partner, it can save you so much time

and effort. And unfortunately, we feel geeky or cheesy or lame to talk about these things, but it's like, that's actually what's gonna help. Yes. Because if you know your partner has an anxious attachment style, you're now going to be more conscious of that. Yes.

You're going to know how to behave with them and speak them in their language in a way that's gonna help them feel secure. Right. I think it's called secure. No, I think it's called attached. It's not- No, no, no, no, I think it's called the secure attachment style. Yeah, I think it's attached avoidance and secure. Right. I think it's called secure. No, I think it's called attached. No, no, no, no, I think it's called the secure attachment style. Yeah, I think it's attached avoidant and secure. I think that's the word. Yes, you are correct. I think that's the word. Yeah, that's the third word secure. Like and but that's the whole point, right?

Like if you know that someone is an avoidant pass personality type attachment type, you know how to make them feel more secure. Yes. Rather than being like, oh, they're just weird, or they've got something wrong with them. Right. All those terms. Well, it's interesting. Have you ever, I don't know if this sort of falls in for a while? I feel like we redo all the same books.

I know. Do you know, is it Tim Grover? Tim Grover, yeah. So I am not into sports, but I love understanding how athletes at the highest level function. I'm just fascinating. I don't know anything about football. It is another level.

Tom Brady. I don't know anything about football, but how in the world at his age and even more importantly, and more impressive to me is how can you have won that much and still have the drive to keep winning? Like I'm fast. I'm with a new team. Oh my gosh. Like fascinated by what it takes because I think if you have ever pushed to sort of a

high level in your career, let's say, or maybe for an athlete or whatever. What you understand is that staying at that level or even evolving past that level is a million times harder than it was to get there. It's so much more difficult because it takes like something other and so I'm fascinated by Kobe or Michael Jordan or just Serena Williams, like how in hell do they maintain? So I don't know if you would like these books

because they're pretty intense, but I loved him, Grover's work. And I interviewed him the other day and I was geeking out so hard. And I was telling him that the first time I read his first book, which is called Relentless, which is this relentless pursuit of excellence and trying so hard and whatever.

It was like a out of body experience. I felt like I was reading something I could have written. I don't know if you've ever had a moment where you're reading something or listening to and you're like, I thought I was the only one. He was explaining things that I just had never sort of this sounds terrible and someone can do therapy with me later, but like that I would achieve something. And maybe you have a bit of this as an achiever,

but I would achieve something, and immediately, what's the next thing? That's done. Like, we did it, what's the next thing? And so I was reading this book, and I loved it. It's the only time in my life I finished a book and immediately started it again. Wow.

And I gave it to my ex-husband, and we were married at the time. And I was like, this book explains me. Like this is it. Read this book. And I was telling Tim that Dave read it. And I remember him looking up and looking at me like I was an alien. Like what the hell? Like, what? And that's nothing against Dave.

Yeah. But I was telling Tim this, like, oh, I felt seen. And like, and then he read it and looked at me like I was an alien. And Tim was like, oh, that's actually way more a reflection of you. Yeah. And you being in a relationship where your partner didn't know who you actually were.

Like that's way more telling about you than it is about him. Right, right. And part of that is we got together so young and I just had evolved so much. Yeah, you changed so much. Right, right, right. I mean, how do you, when you first date you said?

I met him when I was 18. Yeah, so it's like at 18, you really do much. I mean, you got, like, how old were you in your first date? You said? I met him when I was 18. Yes, it's like at 18, you really do not know who you are. No. No. But I just thought that was so interesting of how many times in relationships, your partner really sees you as who they think you are instead of who you actually are.

And how much tension in a relationship happens because you're trying to be you and they think that you're actually this per... I don't know. I just... I thought that was so fast. Well, I think sometimes you're... And I'm so glad you brought this up. And I want to read that book. I think sometimes you actually are becoming more of the version they think you are. So you're, I think in a relationship often, like if your partner sees you as loving and caring and home-making, you start becoming more of that to try and be who they love. And they do it back and that's considered a good thing. But actually what ends up happening is there's a whole part of you that's being underserved. And then when they discover that, they're like, who are you?

I don't even know being underserved. Yes. And then when they discover that, they're like, who are you? I don't even know who you are. Yes. And I can relate to that. So because I met, me and Rady met when I was 2021, but we started dating when I left being amongst, I was 26. Okay.

And so, but when I left being among, that's when I felt the most self-aware. So when I met Rady, I was really clear. I was like, this is what I care about. My purpose comes first. This is where, and it wasn't about achievements. Like, I didn't have like goals. It was more just like, this is who I am.

And I'm more likely to choose this over this if we had the choice. Yes. And I remember having all of it, and I have not changed a bit. Like, I'm the exact same person and Rady will testify to that. Which you were like, yeah, you're the same guy married

just maybe on steroids a bit. But, like, you know, you're exact same person and Rady will testify to that. Wish you were like, yeah, you're the same guy married, just maybe on steroids a bit. But, you know, you're the same person. And Rady's actually changed more. So Rady's changed more. When I met Rady, she was very much like, she just wanted to be a homemaker and now it's like, she's like, got her career growing, she's doing really well. And I found that because I'm so still and steady in my space,

I'm able to appreciate and support, as opposed to feel threatened or scared or confused, of like you're not the person. Because I'm seeing her go through what I went through back then, and I'm seeing her find herself. Which is actually so beautiful to watch, but it's only beautiful to watch if you're doing that yourself. Exactly. And otherwise, it's really scary because your world starts to watch, but it's only beautiful to watch if you're doing that yourself.

Exactly. And otherwise, it's really scary because your world starts to change, right? It's like your world's getting shaken. Yes. Because all of a sudden that person you thought was this, is not that anymore. And I know for women in my community, especially,

and I'm sure this happens with men, but I know with women, there's often this massive tension of their beginning to change and evolve and their partner, usually a man, is really struggling. And it's exactly what you're saying, because that man maybe hasn't gone through his own evolution. And so she begins to change and he's terrified. It's like, well, if you're going to change, are you going to change in such a way that

you leave me behind? Totally. And then it's sort of like holding on tighter. And, you know, that, honestly, that was a massive catalyst for why I'm not married today. Is, I mean, there's a million factors obviously, but he met an 18-year-old. And when we got married, when I was 20, I guess, yeah.

I, all I wanted was to be his wife and to have babies, and to, here's the home, and I'm gonna work, but obviously this is what it is. And that's sort of like who he signed on for. Yeah, that's what it is. And he was a massive true leader of mine and a dear friend and whatever, but it just kept shifting to such a place

where it felt like in order for this thing to work, I had to keep pretending to still be that woman. And I'm not like, she's gone. She's so far gone and I can play that role and I would play that role. But then there was so much resentment there because I feel like I'm trying to fit into a certain box in order to accommodate the vision that you have of me. And then when I step outside of that box or do something that feels threatening and just is too much space to hold there. So

I it's interesting. One of the things I hope most for my kids, and this is maybe a random thing, but I hope that they find the person that they want a partner with long term later in their life. Like I hope that they have that time to figure out who they are in a way that I really didn't. And I think is very common in, definitely in Southern culture and sort of how I'd go out.

You're already young, my gosh. Heck yeah. Even in Indian culture, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so you are growing up together, but that can cause tension if sort of one of you is growing in a way that the other is not.

Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad. Yeah, and I'm so happy that, like you said, like you've both, and you know, I love Dave. Yeah. And it's like I'm so happy that you've both seen how this isn't a failure. And your friendship and your friendship, and your kids, I think it's so beautiful to see that.

And I'm glad that we need to stop seeing the end of things as failure. It's like, do you see the end of your favorite show as a failure? You don't, it's a celebration, and there's no nostalgia, do you see the end of your favorite show as a failure? Yeah. You don't. It's a celebration and there's no nostalgia and you miss it. But it wasn't a failure because the show ended.

Yes. There's no show with never ending seasons. There's shows that have eight seasons before and 12. Well, also it's crazy to think that success is length of time. To all, which is terrible. It's a terrible metric. It's a terrible relationship. Like, the all know people

who've been together for 25 years and they're miserable. Terrible metric for a relationship. Yes. Absolutely. And that's what, when Bill and Melinda divorced recently. Yes. And Melinda goes,

I don't know what I said that like I know them. Yeah, no, no, neither do I. I don't know, to me either. But when Melinda Gates said that, and this, you know, I'm, again, I'm not commenting on there anything else. I don't know them. I'm just commenting on this one statement. Yeah. She said that, you know, I'm again, I'm not commenting on there anything else. I don't know them. I'm just commenting on this one statement. Yeah. She said that, you know, we realized we had nothing

more to learn from each other. Oh, wow. And I was just like, that's beautiful. I love that. Yeah, I was like, what a great and, you know, it was like the picture that had been put up in the press was like a broken glass picture of them. Right. I was like, come on. Like, that's actually a really good lesson. Yeah. Like, if we're not learning from each other, then we probably shouldn't be together. And I don't know, I just, I love that you guys have found that way. It makes me really happy as a friend of both of you and seeing that and just seeing how wonderful you all both are independently, too.

Yes, and I think it's so rad watching him in his new relationship, truly. Like from the beginning, I'm just like, hell yeah, like I think it would be really surprising to people how much we sort of talked about that or what it looks like and to I think there's something so beautiful about him having someone who is meeting him as he is today. And because that's a gift for me in my life, this man met me right now, not 20 years ago me, but who I am right now today, this is who he's getting to me, and the same for Dave, and having a girlfriend who's just like, you're the best, this is awesome,

and it's so cool to see him have someone who shares his hobbies and the things that he's into whatever like look at this is so great. So yeah, I just I refuse to see it as something that's bad because I think my God it has been such a ride and we will be family for the rest of our lives. Of course kids like we're a family. We're about to have a crazy Thanksgiving with like his girlfriend, all her family, like all, it's just, we're figuring it out.

And there's something beautiful about that process, but I don't think that's possible if you sort of see it all as this negative thing or this, it all went awry or it all went badly. And it's not to say that it wasn't painful and it's not to say it wasn't hard on our kids and all of the things to navigate and figure out. But yeah, this was just what that chapter of our lives look like.

Yeah, I love that. Rachel, I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. I'm in love with this but I'm going. Yeah, I am going to lean into the final five, easy or rapid fire, fast five rounds. Oh my gosh, okay. So you can only answer the questions with one word or one sentence maximum. Okay.

One sentence is like ten words. Okay, I'm gonna try and do one. Or nine. I don't know what a definition is. Over sentence. But Rachel Holles, these are your final five. Okay. I love the look of the face.

You can't see, you're on me, I like it. We need a sounded back to you. I know. But okay, question number one. What is the best advice you've ever received? The best of it I say I've ever received. Okay, this was not given to me directly, but my favorite quote,

and this is I'm gonna take his advice, was from Oprah. When I was a teenager, I saw her say this and I thought it and lived it ever since. There is no such thing as luck. There is only preparation, meeting opportunity at a moment in time. And I've spent my life preparing for those moments. That's beautiful. I love that. And it was so great to see you both on stage. I love that. Okay. Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever received? I know exactly what it is. My mom always told me that if your husband doesn't get you what you want for Christmas, just

tell him. If you want something just buy the gift yourself, you'd always just tell me, basically sort of saying you can fix him and kind of make him who you want to be. And I am conscious of this now because I now know what it's like to date someone who gets you exactly as you are and that you don't have to explain anything to. And so I consider that really bad advice. You shouldn't try and mold someone to be who you want them to be.

Beautiful. Alright, question number three, how would you define in one sentence your current purpose? To make as many beautiful memories as possible with the people I love. I love that. That's a beautiful purpose. All right, question number four.

What's the next thing you're most excited to learn? Or what's something you're currently learning that's new to you? And that's exciting. Letting go of my attachment to the outcome. That is a big one for me right now. That is a big one. We get to go back to that.

Question number five, the fifth or final question is, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? We are not allowed to care about what other people think of us. I've been amazing. I think that would change the world and I think that if we could give that to our children

to not be concerned with other people's opinions It would change everything It's amazing right to Alice on on perfect. Thank you so much for doing this I did ask you We would love to see, there are so many incredible takeaways in this episode. I hope you're gonna go back, make notes. Me and Rachel would love to see what stuck out to you.

Please, please, please tag both of us on Instagram, on Twitter, let us know what were the moments, what were the things that Rachel mentioned that are gonna stay with you and that you're gonna remember so that you can apply them into your own life. Rachel, thank you so much. Is there anything you'd like to share with anyone about?

Oh, no, oh my gosh, no, thank you. Thank you. Please go follow Rachel on Instagram and across all social media platforms and find out more from the Hollis company as well. So you can go to the website. We'll put all the links into the comment section. Rachel, thank you again for being on the show. Thanks, Dave.

This was so fun. This will be the first of many. Yes. Absolutely. Thank you. for being on the show. This will be the first of many. Yes. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks everyone. You could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender and visible things we don't usually talk about. I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't

usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by Stellar, Gas like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Yvonne Gloria. And I'm Maite Gomes-Rajon.

We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast. Hungry for history. On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Listen to Hungry for History on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The world of chocolate has been turned upside down. A very unusual situation. You saw

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