On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Ray Dalio ON: Principles for Making Better Decisions & How to Strengthen Relationships for Long-Term Success

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

Today, I am talking to a returning guest and good friend, Ray Dalio. Ray is the founder and co-chairman of Bridgewater Associates, which, over the last forty years, has become the largest and best performing hedge fund in the world. He is the author of #1 New York Times Bestseller and #1 Amazon Business Book of the Year, Principles. Dalio has appeared on the Time 100 list of the most influential people in the world as well as the Bloomberg Markets list of the 50 most influential people. He lives with his family in Connecticut.   Ray genuinely shares the deepness of thoughts and what is his views on passing on your principles to others and picking up theirs and learn from it, the unappreciated value of journaling, knowing the right approach to having better relationships through thoughtful disagreements, the lessons we can learn from history, and the three things that mainly influence us and our society. We also exchange thoughts on asking approval and validation from others, how we react to others out of our emotional state, and how we can be of service to the world.        This episode was filmed at Soho Works: 10 Jay Street.What We Discuss:00:00:00 Intro00:03:00 The first time you fear meeting someone00:04:17 How did you develop clarity?00:08:13 The smartness of your move determines the outcome00:10:55 When did you start journaling?00:18:19 The arc of life00:21:08 The three people you must have in your life00:25:12 The biggest problem of our society00:29:50 How to win the debate of life00:32:20 Looking at the sequence of discovering the truth00:38:03 Three big things that influence us00:47:00 The typical cycle for a new system00:49:16 It’s more human nature than the system00:57:26 Producing a reaction that becomes instinctual01:03:36 Four important decisions we make in life01:10:25 How do you approach money?01:14:27 Don’t worry so much about the approval of others01:20:27 Three practices of successful relationships01:25:08 How do we serve the world?01:27:56 What’s your view of love?Episode ResourcesRay Dalio | BooksRay Dalio | LinkedInRay Dalio | TwitterRay Dalio | InstagramBridgewaterDo you want to meditate daily with me? Go to go.calm.com/onpurpose to get 40% off a Calm Premium Membership. Experience the Daily Jay. Only on CalmWant to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I am Dr. Romani and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism. This season, we dive deeper into highlighting red flags and spotting a narcissist before they spot you. Each week, you'll hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and their process of healing. Listen to Navigating Narcissism on the iHeartRad Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Regardless of the progress you've made in life, I believe we could all benefit from wisdom on handling common problems, making life seem more manageable, now more than ever.

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Deeply well with Debbie Brown is available now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Namaste. And the path, really, to success, in my opinion, is to be able to align those, okay, what am I feeling, and then to reflect intellectually? Is that the right thing if I'm going to? Hey, everyone. Welcome back to on purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now I know you are here because you love learning about new insights, ideas, principles that

can transform your life, things that you can put into practice, ideas that you can actually take into your life, apply them, and see changes in transformation happen. Today's guest is one of the few guests who's been on not just once, not just twice, but a third time. I don't think there's more than three guests out of our entire library that have been on as many times as today's guest. And I couldn't be more excited to talk to him. The first time I spoke to him,

we were speaking about his book, Principles, an incredible book if you haven't read it, highly recommend that you get it. Next time we spoke, we spoke about a second book, Changing World Order, and the third one, this interview, we're talking about his new journal called My Principles. I've been flicking through this over the past few days

since I've had it, and it has given me so much self awareness that I already believe I have, but the opportunity to reflect on it again and again consistently makes a huge difference. Of course, I'm talking about the one and only Ray, Dahlia Ray, thank you for being here. Thank you for doing this. Jay is such a pleasure.

All of these times, I love it. Yeah, it's a joy to see you after three years. We did one digital interview. Maybe even two I think we did in the middle of the pandemic. Maybe this is your fourth time actually. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but either way, I'm just always grateful to be in your presence. I learned so much from you.

I remember I wanna share this because the first time I met you, I'd heard so much about you. And you know, your reputation precedes you and you have this huge brand beyond just, I'm not talking about brand in terms of social media or I think in the business world. And I had no idea what you were gonna be like. And I was nervous, it was three years ago,

but that was early in my career of doing this. And I was thinking to myself, I was like, what's he gonna be like? I have no idea, how should I behave around it? And then you came in and you were the most charming, disarming individual that I'd met. You're so comfortable to be around. I was telling my whole team that I was like, you forget everything in your presence. You make everyone feel very comfortable, very respected, very, very wanted and very valued.

And I think that's a huge gift. So I wanted to say that because I probably have not told you that, but yes, three years ago, it, very nervous. Well, there are times where there's an aspree to core that there are similar values that you're going up to similar things. And you can also play jazz together. It's almost like when we're right now, it's almost like we can be playing together.

Yeah, I love that. And we have that. So I have the same respect. And we can, so let's go play some jazz. Yeah, let's do it. I was going to ask you, do you remember the first time you ever felt fear meeting someone? Because I know you talk a lot about the truth and fearlessness, but yeah, was there ever a time when you remember meeting a mentor, a business person, a person in your world where

you felt a sense of fear and how you dealt with it? My reactions are, tend to be more like excitement. There's a nervous excitement. Yes, nervous excitement is probably the right word. Yeah, yes. Because I'm walking in and I'm thinking, okay, wow, okay. But it's a little bit like life, you know? The question of certain moments

is is that excitement for some people, it's excitement for some people, it excitement for some people it's fear and it's not just at those moments of meeting somebody like that. It happens a lot in life. You know, it's almost ambiguity a taste for adventure. I think I'm more the taste for adventure. So I will nervously go in maybe with some palpitations and feeling more excitement at it. Like I feel excited about this. I think that's a great refinement. I would say I feel the same way. It's a nervous excitement. That's something special you have. You have this ability to be really clear about words,

really clear about emotions when you read your work, when you're in your work, was clarity something that you always found easy or how did you develop that ability to be so clear about the language you use, even just what you did now. It was like, I used a word and actually I feel this and I'm like, yeah, actually I feel that too. So tell me where that refinement came from. I honestly don't know. I have a lousy rope memory. That means, I mean, really, rope memory means like, if it doesn't have a reason for being what it is, like a phone number or name or anything like that, like I'm terrible.

And if it, and in school, terrible, you know, memorize this man, but if it's within a context and there's a story where there's something, I have a superb memory of how that transpires. I think I was born that way. And so by being born that way, I have a superb memory of how that transpires. And I think I was born that way. And so by being born that way, I'm wondering, does that enter into this particular question? And then I think my job requires me to be thinking

in terms of that sort of clarity, but I really don't know. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it's fascinating for us to at least learn that and perceive that in you. But it seems like you've done a lot of reverse engineering as well to create the principles in the first place, like observing success, observing failure, observing wins. It seems like there's been no, you're putting your finger on it. You know, what I did is I got an inhabit at a very early age that whenever I would make a decision, I would pause and reflect,

particularly if it was a painful decision or a painful moment, I'd pause and reflect, I have a principle, pain plus reflection equals progress, and then I would write down my reflections. That's why the journal, I would literally use a journal. This journal, by the way, is connected to an app that facilitates that. And that's what one I want to pass along. And I think that that helped my clarity, because at that moment of stepping back when there is greater clarity, when there's calmness after the storm, maybe or the excitement of the adventure, whatever it is that you're reflecting on. That reflection, riding it down and thinking about it, and thinking, am I clear? I think helps my I know helps my clarity a lot. Wow. I remember a few years ago when you went to some to something, you know, extremely tragic. I emailed you just to know of love and support. And you quoted that back to me then in an email.

And I was just blown away by that because I have quoted pain plus reflection equals progress by you a million times. I think I've repeat that in every keynote I give because I think it's such a powerful principle because as soon as you remove the word reflection, progress disappears and all you're left with is pain. And when you repeated that back to me in that moment, I thought, wow, like to remember that principle in this moment

requires so much, just so much depth, and I was truly blown away by that because it's one thing writing it and it's another thing living it. The incident that you're referring to is the worst thing that could ever have happened to me. I would have rather died and then haven't happened. It was the loss of my son. But you know meditation helps a lot, right? So meditation and reflection because whenever this pain, there's a reality. It tells you something about reality.

And it tells you something about how to deal with reality, the reflections. Yeah. Life is life. It comes at you. It is reality. You can't change it. Okay. You can influence it based on your reactions. But you have to deal with it. And you have to deal with it in a calm way. So meditation helps you become, it helps you see the clarity and then move beyond that to deal with the circumstances. Well, I think.

How did you come to accept that? I think a lot of people struggle with accepting that life's going to come at you. It's going to do what it wants. I think we have a desire for control, and when someone looks at someone as successful as you, they would infer that, oh, Ray probably is good at controlling things. He's probably good at making things happen.

What is that balance, or what have you discovered about the idea of like control and acceptance? Like, where do you live in between that spectrum? Well, I think, you know, it keeps coming back, the serenity prayer. God give me the serenity to accept that, which I can't control, and give me the power to control that, which I can,

and the wisdom to tell the difference. And I think that that really guides it. You know, what is your best? And so it is the combination of acceptance, but also the desire to influence. Right? And so, yeah, and if you're going to influence, you have to have that equanimity, you know, like a ninja. You know, there are things coming at you and you can't be hijacked by your emotions.

And the smartness of your move will determine the outcomes. And how do you learn that? Because it produces better results. And the other one produces bad results. And it's like, do you learn anything? It's the same way you learn, don't put your hand on a hot stove. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

I love that because I think we live in the world right now. And it's like, is it this way or that way? It's always either or and you're saying, well, no, it's both, right? We need both acceptance and control. We need both desires. And I think often we get lost thinking, right, it's one or the other. You can only choose one. And in all, either of those cases, it's reality.

Okay, you're dealing with reality. So to go above it, it's so important. You know, here I am in this situation. And what do I do? What resources can I use? Who might I speak with for help? All of that helps you navigate because you still have to do with reality. Yes, absolutely. When did you, well, do my principles, the journal, and I know, like you said, there's an app attached to it, and for anyone who's wondering why this journal is different, there's so many reasons why it's different. A, because it has better prompts than most journals I've seen.

But it also has this q-alca that kind of you can scan on every page, and so whether it's doing the assessment or whether, in this case it's what's a case study of this principle in action, it's an interactive journal, right, which is very different. I think we have lots of journals where we write with a pen and you're jotting down your thoughts. But here, if you can see, there's exercises included as well. I mean, treat, when did your personal journaling practice start, Ray, or did you? About 25 years ago.

But I want to say that by being, it gives you sort of an option. Do what I want to have what I'm doing saved online so that I can play around with it. In other words, I got the data. So now, once I've got the data online, rather than on piece of paper, you can do things with it. But sometimes that piece of paper. But I started about, I guess about 25, maybe 30 years ago, I can't tell you. I started when I started building my company.

It was a point of having 67 people. I remember it because every holiday season, I would, you know, I started my company from nothing. So I had two people, four people, well, okay, we got up to 67. I remember it was 67 because it was holiday season. And every holiday, I would shop for their individual gifts and I'd write each individual long notes. And that was then long enough, take, took me long enough to realize that I really need to communicate better with them. I also journaled because I needed to write down my decision rules for the markets so that

I could go back test them. So it's a very great power if you can know what your criteria would be, and then say, how would they have worked in the past? How would they have worked in this country or that country? Because then you're not just making decisions, you've got perspective on making decisions.

So those two things together got me into journaling. I wanted the world, my world, people I worked with, we went up to 1500 people. How do you communicate in a really good way? And it wasn't just journaling, but then also I would combine the journaling with videos and cases. My culture was to have meaningful work and meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and radical transparency. So what we would do is video everything or tape everything for everybody to see so that way they could see it.

And so by taking the principles and putting them together with the situations, it was fabulous exposure. So everybody was always informed and they were going through like this reality TV type experience. And then they would give answers as they were going through the experience because that way they would have that experience. But imagine a reality TV experience. But it's your reality around you and then you're making these this input and then that input would be able to know what people would think. So we found all

that experience really well. So we took the journals, the journaling of the principles I did and put that together with the videos and that's that's on this app principles in action. It's called principles in Action. It's called Principles in Action. It's free and it's rated 4.9 people love it. But that journaling experience, that reflecting, and reflecting together and communicating together helps to people bring people together. And it also helps people understand

because too much stuff is stuck up here. Oh, wow. I mean, just hearing that, there's so many levels of journaling there. There's the journaling of like you're saying, you're writing down your principles or the gifts and working with people, then there's the journaling of even videoing everything. I mean, that's journaling, right? You're documenting it. It's recorded.

It's there to reflect upon. The most brilliant part about that though is that I think today people have started to think journaling just means writing down your feelings or writing down your thoughts, which is, yeah, this is... No, no, I mean, I think it's good to write down your feelings. Of course, yeah, so to bring them forward, to look up to you and to look at them is that a good exercise.

Religion is not, is a way of life as an approach to life. I don't mean the God part of religion, I mean just how do you approach life. And you get to make that decision. And so it's really when you're in a situation, what are you going to do in that situation and why? And course, it starts with your deeper needs, whatever they may be. What do I want out of life? Who do I want to be with? What are the directions?

Then it comes down to the particulars. The particulars can be aspirational. I'm 73 years old. I know that at this particular point in life, I want to pass along the things that are valuable for me. It could be on how do you fire a person? How do you treat that person? It could be what is your relationship life? And so those are the principles. It's not just it's not journaling feelings. And so I found that very, very valuable. But I'm in a new phase of my life in which what I'm

going to do is get the best principles from everyone. I've been passing along my principles and so on. And people find it helpful. What a joy it is, as you must have experienced, when people say, oh my God, you've changed my life. But other people can do it. You're doing it. And I say to so many people who are really

very, very successful people who have never written down their principles that they're going to die with them. And if they instead write them down and make them clear, then they're teaching other people. Because there's a life arc, right? We have experiences that things of decisions we make that make us successful, okay? Including how to deal with things. And so if we write those things down, we can help other people. And I think like, I probably won't be around to speak to my grandchildren in the way that

I would like to then, but they will have those principles. And so now my aspiration is to get the best principles from wherever they come from. So this journal will be accompanied by an ability for people to submit their principles. And I'm doing that also with the most successful impactful people in the world. That's why I'm going to be grabbing your principles. And that'll be put online so that people can vote up. What are the best principles?

They could either go to J. Shetty's principles or they can say, all through that vote, and what's the best principle for the thing I'm dealing with? So that way they can look and they say, I am dealing with this situation, push the bus, and then what are the best principles for that situation wherever they come from? And then they could choose their principles,

and that's I think foundational for life. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I know that's what you're focusing with this, is like you want people to come up with their own. Yeah. And that's going to mean being exposed to a lot of different ideas, a lot of different insights to find what they can hold on to and then develop themselves.

Did you always think, you've always said that to me, since I've met you and obviously that's been the journey that you're on right now, that this phase in your life is giving back and sharing the principles you've learned, have you always had a vision for different stages of your life? And I don't mean a five year tenure plan. I mean, more of like, this is the world I'm walking into. Like, is that how you always end up?

I would say, I don't know how many years ago, I started to realize the arc of life. Right. There's actually an exercise in the book on the arc and life. That's the arc and life. There's actually an exercise in the book on the Alarkin life. That's the Alarkin life. And these are all the different things that happen to you at that stage. It's almost like a script. And by going down this script, one can see where one is, and one could see the things that are going to come at them. I started to realize that in a big picture pit, I don't know, maybe it was 25, 30 years

ago, I can't say, but then I began to research it and understand it a lot greater. And then I began to feel it. You feel it. Again, when you can connect intellectually what's happening with subliminally and emotionally what's happening to you you gain perspective and so this like this phase. It's not just an intellectual thing I don't know maybe nature has. programmed us in our minds to have these needs and feelings at certain age. So I know that now, like the greatest joy that I can have, is to help people be successful without me. I mean, I know what my time horizon is, and I know that my greatest joy is in not any longer in being successful myself.

That was that was great and it's fine and so on, but I don't need more of that and I really my greatest joy is in helping other people. And I can't say whether that is a instinctual, how much of it's instinctual, how much it's cerebral by seeing that stage in life, but it's it's apparent. Yeah, no, absolutely and you're doing it. Aways a travel company that believes that the more we travel, the better we all become. This holiday season, a way offers a range of suitcases, bags, and other travel essentials made for different types of travelers. From the overpackers to the minimalist, to the travel expert to everyone in between, all

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I remember last year my wife and I, we're doing a charity event to raise funds for COVID-19 in India, because we read a statistic that one person was dying every five minutes of COVID-19, and I reached out to you and you just gave such a wonderfully generous donation. And so in so many ways, you're helping and supporting and it's been so beautiful to see, you're doing something we were talking about this just

before we started filming, but this idea of like coaching and mentorship, right? What you're saying is you're trying to preserve this coaching and mentorship for your grandkids, great grandkids, everyone else's grandkids and great-grandkids as well, that will have access to this. And journaling is someone that we see so many greats to it as well. It's a practice that has stood the test of time.

There are two schools of thought. Some entrepreneurs believe that mentors and coaches are a huge integral part of their life. I know that I've had spiritual mentors, financial mentors, career mentors, other mentors in every area of my life. I see you as a mentor. On the other end, there are entrepreneurs who believe they're self-made, that you don't need mentors, you don't need coaches, you don't need to listen to anyone's advice. Where do you sit on that and how do you help young people navigate that today? Because I think a lot of people are stuck

trying to figure it out or they're not doing either properly as well. The second group is stupid. I'm not, but just be clear, okay? That was very radically transparent. I just wanna be clear. They may confuse the fact that they may have good instincts, they have to make their own decisions, they can be independent thinkers that might do controversial things and would it be successful.

That all is true, okay? That all is true. But the perspectives, the gain, the learning, the wisdom that is gained, the open-mindedness, the power of stress testing your ideas. I say that I think everybody to be successful should be assertive and open-minded at the same time. People ask, well, what does that merely mean? It means the, you have to believe, you have to understand, and at the same time, you have to doubt and pull out and get the questions so that you stress tested

and you're learning. Yes, yes. And so there's a great power in getting the other perspectives. A triangulation for me is the key to success, one of the keys to success. Triangulation, I mean, get the three smartest people that you know who will care about you and but will disagree with you, will stress test you and have those conversations.

And I like to have them disagree with each other. So I've up bring them into a room and we'll have a conversation and then okay do the back and forth. You want to learn about anything like I have big initiatives and where I don't know anything and I have found that if I follow that approach by getting the best experts and I do that I can go into things with the guidance. So it's so obviously stupid, I think, or so obviously beneficial to be able to draw upon the best thinking and then not to just blindly believe. So when I say it, be assertive and open-minded at the same time.

Don't just follow, okay? Do the back and forth. Here's the disagreements, and then resolve the disagreements. It's an extremely powerful approach. Yeah, no, there was this amazing study I read a few years ago in MIT, where they did a study. MIT did a study on the most innovative people

inside an organization. And they showed two graphs to people, and they said, who do you think's more innovative? And in graph number one, it was where one person is connected to lots of different people like this. And then graph two was people connected to people, and then the people they knew were connected to each other. And they asked, who do you think is more innovative? And most people said, the second,

I don't know if that's because people don't have to beat graphs or whether people really thought it was. But the answer was that if you know people who all know each other, chances are you're going to be less innovative and less effective because you live in an echo chamber. But if you know people who don't know each other who have more random ideas, disagreements, are less likely to affirm each other's beliefs, which is what you're saying, you're actually going to get to a better answer.

So they were saying that if you know people from different backgrounds, different walks of life, different expertise, therefore, though, naturally be debate, you get healthier answers. So I think that study always stands out to me. And this is a problem, the biggest problem of our society now. The biggest problem of our society now

is individuals who are highly opinionated, who will not exchange open mindedly the different opinions about things. And are in their echo chambers, whether it's on the particular media that they're connected to and so on, who are then having conflicts with each other. This is a threat to our society. Yeah, and let's talk about that. I think that's such a fascinating topic and idea, because I couldn't agree with you more. If I had to say it for myself, I feel like I think maybe it

was from, you know, working with, I love both my parents, but I was mediating their merits since I was a kid. And so I was very good at being on both sides. I loved them both individually. And I would always like, I know I could listen to my mom and I could hear her outside and I could empathize with her. And I'd do the same with my dad. And I'd be there for both of them. And it became a natural thing that I was able to do. I think because of that when I reflect on it. I think that's how I gained that skill. So I've always found it very natural to be able to understand different sides,

to really empathize and connect with different people and see that there's truth and challenges in both. But I think that's hard to do because, I think today we feel ideology is our safety, right? And ideology is what makes us feel secure in who we are. And so, right? That's a serious mistake. So yeah, let's dive into that.

How do we go of that in recognizing that actually knowledge and knowing is far more a safety than holding on to one ideology? I think it's simple, the fear of making bad mistakes or being wrong should be a motivator to take in these different perspectives and then weigh things. OK, an ideology, though, let's say it's a political ideology. I want my children to be educated in a certain way. That's a very particular important ideology.

Still means that there are choices that you have. And then the question is, have you made those choices in the best way? And then after you've made those choices, what are you going to do about it? Should you move from one place to another? Should you, what schools do you pick? You know, those kinds of things. Life is just a matter of those particular choices. And there are win-win relationships, and there are lose-lose relationships. And win-win relationships are a lot better

than lose-lose relationships. So knowing the approach to that, knowing, live and let live, I can make my choices, I can move here, I can do this. Or the mutual respect that you have for, it's okay, you can have your point of view. To be less judgmental is better. I mean, not, it's better for everybody. Is somebody doing you harm, that's a whole different thing. But the all of that, I think, is very, very important. The art of thoughtful disagreement is the basis of a very innovative and also harmonious

society. If you want to have an innovative, harmonious society, you have to have the art of thoughtful disagreement. And the mediator is a very important role, so that you play. Because like I wrote in my other book, Principles, one of the handy things is, if you're having a disagreement, one of you might be wrong. And how do you know? And how do you get past that?

And so the classic thing is to find, to agree on somebody who you mutually agree will be a fair judge and a fair mediator. And if you mutually agree on that person, then you bring them, then they can get you, they can help you along. And the exercise of going above it and saying, okay, here is this disagreement. And how do we deal with disagreement and are each other related to the disagreement? That is a good perspective to have. And so I think that as we look at all those things, I think that it's so clear that approaches like that are and perspectives like that are very, very helpful.

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This is what it sounds like inside the box card. I'm journalist and I'm Morton in my podcast, City of the Rails. I plunge into the dark world of America's railroads, searching for my daughter Ruby, who ran off to hop train. I'm just like stuck on this train, not where I'm gonna end up, and I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters, living outside society, off the grid grid and on the edge. I was in love with the lifestyle and the freedom this community.

No one understands who we truly are. The rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, and the thing we call the American Dream. It's the last vestige of American freedom. Everything about it is extreme. You're either going to die, or you can have this incredible rebirth and really understand who you are. Come with me to find out what waits for us and the city of the rails. Listen to city of the rails on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your

podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season. And yet, we're constantly discovering new secrets. The depths of them, the variety of them, continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share ten incredible stories with you,

stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. When I realized this is not just happening to me, this is who and what I am. I needed her to help me. Something was gnawing at me that I couldn't put my finger on that I just felt somehow that there was a piece missing. Why not restart? Look at all the things that were going wrong. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to season eight of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, and I love how you call it an art, because I remember when I was at, in my high school,

I was part of my debating team at school. And I first got into it because I found public speaking natural, and I enjoyed it, and, you know, I guess as a young man, I thought it was fun to argue with people and defeat them, and things like that. And I'd go up there, and I thought it was fun to argue with people and defeat them and things like that. And I'd go up there and I'd know how to pick apart someone's argument and I'd know how to bend it and twist it. And then I remember one of our teachers or coaches, he sat me down and he said, Jay, do

you think you're good at this? And I hadn't had a young person's eager, like, yeah, I was 15, 16 years old. And I was like, yeah, I'm really great at this. And he said, well, actually, you are just winning because you get a arguing, but he goes, you don't actually know how to debate. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, he said, you're debating based on why your point is better, but he goes, you don't know the other person's point well enough.

And so he said, the only way you become a great debater is if you also deeply study the opposing argument. He goes, you can't just win on the merit of your argument. You have to actually understand where that person's coming from. And it changed my whole view of you. Yes, I'll take that and I'll go one step further. Oh, I'd love for you to. Yeah. The one step further is not to win your point of view. The one step further is to get a truth. The real winner is somebody who learns something. Absolutely. Okay, so I'm talking about in life. Maybe on the stage you say,

you won the debate because you ended up with the position you started with. Yes. And you won it. we gave you the most important point. But the real winner in life is to try to find what the best path is and the one who comes out of it who has improved their understanding and makes a step forward is the real winner. So losing the debate in many cases can make you a better winner. I couldn't agree more, couldn't agree more.

And I think that's the challenge. I remember there's a famous phrase. I don't know where it comes from, but there's three sides to every story. One's yours, one's mine, and then the truth. But we so often feel that our side is the truth. I know it's such a terror. We've been raised that way. You know, the educational system means, okay, you take a test.

I came up with the right answer. I want. Okay. It doesn't take you through the journey of saying, I'm now having experience and I was wrong. And how do I go above that? That's one of the big reasons why people often who are very successful in school are not very successful in life. Yeah.

It's so true. Yeah, it's so true. And I hope that this podcast at least reminds people that any argument you have this week, this doesn't just supply with a debate in the workplace or disagreement at home with your friends or your family wherever you are. If you can take a moment to reflect on finding the truth, as you rightly said. And that a bad experience can become a good experience. In other words, if you approach it as a fight, it's going to produce a lot of anxiety. If you approach it as a curiosity and an, a game almost that you're playing with each other, okay, to try to get at truth. Okay, then that could be really a wonderful experience. But somehow we feel that admitting a mistake or admitting we were wrong

or discovering the truth makes us weak and makes us bad. Education system, you know, because it just looks at that particular answer and it doesn't look at the sequence of discovering truth. And that's a problem And that's a problem. It's a problem. But I found in people that it's not a problem that they can't get over.

I found that we have this culture in which that's the culture, right? It becomes obvious if you're not doing it. Yes. And when you have in an environment like that, then people's behaviors change pretty quickly. Yeah. I would say, and I don't know how many months it'll vary, but maybe 18 months or so on, that they would be curious, what might they be missing? And they understand that it almost

is so silly to be a blocker of ideas and to be antagonistic when there's a different point of view, it's really stupid to do that. And when they start to see themselves doing that and asking why are they doing that? That reflection and that then changing behavior then produces, change behavior that produces rewards, better decisions and better relationships. When you better decisions, and better relationships.

When you have better decisions and better relationships, you have a better life. Yeah, and it does take time. I used to have 18 months there. I think I was talking to my team before we kicked off, and I was just saying that I feel like we finally, and in my company, have a culture where everyone is so self-reflective

and self-focused on what they can improve and how they can be better, that it makes it easier to have conversations where there's disagreement and debate and a difference of opinion, because everyone is reflecting on themselves. They're not coming into something going, no, my idea is the best and we're getting it wrong. But I think that takes a certain kind of person and human who has that ability to do that while not losing their self-esteem. Yes, but that can be trained. Okay, here's the way it works. There is an intellectual, analytical part of our brains, logical, and so on. And then there's this subliminal, which means we don't even know what it's thinking,

emotional part of our brains that is operating that. If you speak with somebody and you have, you put them in the position of saying, would you like this or would you not like it? And you, they start to experience the two uses, I call it. then they start to see that they may make a different choice. For example, if I say, Jay, I have these thoughts about what you're not doing well. Would you like me to discuss it with you? Or would you not like me to discuss it with you? Or I think you have, I don't know, it could be even a fatal flaw. By the way, fatal flaws are not fatal because you may not be able to change yourself, but

you can work with people who are strong, where you're weak, to be able to be successful. But when you ask that, those things that they find a barrier, it's quite often the case that intellectually they understand it. Yes, obviously it's desirable for you to tell me maybe things I don't want to hear. Okay. But I know that of course I, first of all, I want to know that you're hearing those things. And secondly, maybe they're true. And so that exercise of speaking where the intellectual and the subliminal are at odds, and they see that it's at odds, and then they begin to pursue a way of being

is a training process that can help them to say, I want that. Yes, yes. It's almost like the debate that we're seeing externally is actually debate going on internally between them already, yes. If that is it, the biggest debates we have is that debate, the emotional us with the intellectual us

and the path really to success in my opinion is to be able to align those. Okay, what am I feeling and then to reflect intellectually? Is that the right thing if I'm going to I don't know punch the person or if I'm going to maybe eat what I shouldn't eat or something and then intellectually I can have the reconciliation between that emotional and that intellectual to make the decision. And I get alignment. And by the way, I find meditation helps a lot.

I can get alignment. And then I can take that view that I have and then try and regulate it with others. The probability of me making a much better decision has increased immensely. And an all success in life is making the better decisions. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting in the path that we've gone down. And I love it. When you said jazz, it's definitely been like that.

Because we've gone down a completely different direction, which I love. But you said something, you was like, this one of the biggest challenges in society today. What are some of the challenges you see in society that we should be addressing at the core? Because this isn't just going into like the current events. It's really looking at root challenges that we have.

Yeah, I've been in a global macro investor for about, well, more than 50 years. And one of the things that I learned in my life is that many of the things that surprised me just didn't happen to me before, but they happen many times in history. So by studying history, I could then do well. So for example, studying the Great Depression allowed me to do very well in the 2008 financial crisis. What's happening now is allowing me to do very well one of this or having problems because of the things that are happening in the past. The three big things, and there are a couple more too, but the three big things that are happening to us, is the first the financial that's happening at a macro level, which is the creation of a lot of debt and the printing of a lot of money to pay for that debt. So you don't pay

it back with hard dollars and so on. That's putting a lot of money out there and that's producing the stagflation that we have. And the magnitudes of that are unprecedented. You have to go back to the 1930s to see something like that. And so the value of money, and what you do with money and its economic impact affects everybody. The second big influence is the amount of internal conflict that is existing. Because of large wealth gaps, the largest wealth gap since the 1930s, the largest values gaps.

And then this intransigent win-it-all cost type of mentality which is reflected in populism. In other words, a populist is a political representative who says, I will fight for you and win it all cost. And that means not compromising. And that win-it-all cost is why you see the January 6th incidents and things like that. We may be in a position where neither side in the next presidential election accepts losing in the next presidential election. That conflict produces the most irreconcilable differences and people who are in that mindset. And that is what causes civil wars, types of civil wars. You can easily imagine that the central government might give directions to the local government or people, and they say, I'm not going to follow that law.

You might see the Supreme Court. You may not find that. And that's a world problem right now. So that second problem is a problem. It's particularly a problem when you have the first problem, because the first problem produces financial problems, which produces stress and antagonism, and says, this wealth gap or whatever it values gap,

I'm going to fight for you have the second. That's dangerous. And the third is the rise of powers. The United States is no longer the dominant power. In other words, if you look at the percentage share of world GDP or military superiority and those types of things. And so you have these rising powers

and the United States. And so you have bigger powers in bigger conflicts. We see it obviously with Russia today, but we see it with China and so on. And so the whole geographic world order is changing. All of these things make for greater conflict, right? The financial conflict, the financial pain, how do I deal with inflation? Where should I keep my money? It's not the same.

How do I deal with inflation? Where should I keep my money? It's not the same. How do I deal with that? Together with the internal conflict and that external conflict produces a very stressful and risky period for the world. We are in a risky period in the world. And so those are from the macro, big respect of the biggest influences. I studied, when I studied this, I studied

last 500 years of history and to see the arcs because the arcs typically take 100 or 150 years to have an arc, a big cycle. And so I needed to study the 500 years and I put it out in a book, changing world order. And there's also a video, free video online, 24 million people, it's easy to see because I wanted to convey the message. And you see those arcs repeating over time for certain reasons. I think it's very important that people understand those arcs. And then again, with the equanimity and the other things that we're talking about approach that set a circumstances. So that's the talking about approach that set a circumstances. So that's the mix of circumstances that I would say creates the environment that we're in.

And the key to any environment is to know how to navigate it well. So in that book I wrote different principles of how do you deal with that kind of an environment. I'm not saying that environment and there's nothing sure in what I'm saying. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But it does come back to some basics. And those basics means are how are people with each other? How am I going to be with you? Can we have thoughtful disagreement? Can we have compromise? Can we have a country in which we are more together that more invite and to understand how that choice that together, figuring it out,

is gonna be a whole lot better than fighting with each other. Yeah, and I think that's the challenge we're seeing is this massive disparity between the challenge getting more and more extreme and our skills still being at the same level. Like that ability to have that conversation or that debate or that disagreement, the skill level we have is so low.

That's right. And you see by studying the French Revolution, Chinese Revolution, Russian Revolution, all of these queuing revolutions and so on, when it starts to intensify, you get past the point of listening to each other and then you go into the fighting mode, and that's a cycle. So like in the French Revolution, there were many in the middle who said this system is not working, and for both sides,

and there should be a reformation and making move. But if you were in the middle, you were guillotine, or anyone in the middle, you have to pick a side and fight. And that's the nature of that dynamic. It's all within us because if you take any measure of living standards, the world. The world has more wealth than it ever has. It can have greater longevity because there's

greater science. So what we have in totality, the world has more than it has ever had. Right? So our opportunity is great. If we could just work it out. Right? But we can destroy each other. We can hurt each other very badly because of human nature. And it's the same human nature that existed through time. There are lessons. Just don't do this. Yeah, I mean, when you say that, I start thinking of, when you're studying history and you're studying those 500 years, and I'm going to ask you this in a second, but there was an example that came to my mind.

I always think about like, where did someone get it right? Or where is their progress as well in history? And I recently got to visit Rwanda. And I would never thought I would have visited and it wasn't part of my plans. I went because one of my friends opened up a conservation center for the environment, for gorillas and it's a beautiful space out there.

So I went there and we got to trek with the gorillas every day and walk with them. And it's a really beautiful thing because you're walking with them in the wild. They're not, you know, kept in a zoo or anywhere like that. They're in their home and you get to go and observe them in their home. But more importantly, I went to the Memorial, the Genocide Memorial Museum there. And the genocide was just 20 years ago. And you learn about the two tribes that, you know, completely,

I think one million people died in the genocide out of the 10 million population that the country has. So it's huge, right? And what I was blown away by was I met with some of the survivors and I sat with them because I was just curious and intrigued because everyone there now is let go of the names of the tribes. They've let go of you know the heritage almost from their parents. Most of these people's parents would have killed each other.

Like it's a it's a very like violent environment, but there's such a healing. There's such a forgiveness. There's such a path to letting go. Now of course there's other challenges that are going on in the country and the poverty, etc. But the leadership has spearheaded this journey towards collective conscience and like bringing people together and recognizing that we're more alike than we are different. And I was just astounded at how a country 20 years ago in that much turmoil is rising from that. Did you find any examples in history

where people did have positive mediation? Well, what you're describing is the typical cycle. So I'm just going to make clear what the typical cycle is. The typical cycle is that you have a war, a civil war, or an international war that you have a fight for power. And then you have a horrendous experience. Okay. And then out of that comes a new water, comes a new system. Somebody is dominant. A Spanish civil war is brothers fighting each other

and so on, a horrendous experience. And then some force gains the power wins and it becomes such a horrendous experience, the French Civil War, all of these civil wars, they become such a horrendous experience that nobody wants it again. And so the pendulum swings so that you then don't have a war. So for example, my father and that generation fought in a war. Okay. In the beginning parts of these wars, they're into the war. You know, they brave and they're going to go there and then the war is so horrendous and it goes on so long. And by the way, it's a great equalizer. They destroy wealth, so wealth,

the quality then becomes greater. And they go into that environment and then it just, it ends. And then when it ends, there's so much hurting and so much not wanting war that you come to a period of peace and prosperity. And the cycle goes for peace and prosperity. And then a new generation comes along, okay, who has not experienced the war. And then comes into that and says, we will fight, and so on. Like our generation has not experienced those things. And yet they're entranjigent in terms of those fights. And they saw many people could say,

hell, yes, I'm gonna fight. And then you go through that cycle. So that's how the cycle normally works. How do we then make sure that people understand the ramifications and consequences? I think that's when I put out the book because I want people to worry about this. I have a principle, if you worry, you don't have to worry. And if you don't worry, you need to worry. If you worry, then you will take care not to do the thing you're worrying about.

Take care not to do the thing you're worrying about. If you don't worry about it, you're probably going to do it. Okay? So, when I look at the set of circumstances, I believe that we as a society are at a juncture, we recognize at this conflict, or can we have win-win relationships? Can we compromise? Can we have this together? Can we work well together? Or we work well together or not? Okay, we're at that. I think by seeing those alternatives and having a middle,

I pray for a strong middle. I pray for avoiding the extremes and the fighting between those extremes and maybe if that's the case, then we will get it. And it's hard when the system's been set up for the extremes, right? Like it's difficult when everybody else is. I think it's more human nature than the system. Like, okay, we've had this democratic system over through a period of time, but we had one civil war, and we've had others. How are we going to be? Democracy worked very, very well for a lot of times in a variety of ways. I mean, I don't have to recount them. But at the same time, the history of democracy and cycles.

Plato and his book, The Republic, The Olds of F.E. Cycles over and over again. And the real risk to democracy is anarchy, because you can't have strong leadership, because everybody's fighting over everything and it produces a chaos. And that chaos becomes intolerable and everybody wants to fight. And then you have the fight.

So I think it's more human nature than a system. Yeah, human nature just goes in that direction regardless. It's also like people who didn't have anything and are broke in the worst possible positions and a society that likes that. And then they come out and then they work well together, they make things. And then they can become decadent. The society can become decadent. I think our society is decadent.

Now, I think it's got a problem. In that the lower levels of society, I'm intimate contact through my wife, particularly, who is helping what is called disengaged and disconnected population of high school students in Connecticut. Those are students who disconnected means they're no longer

in school, they're out, they don't know where they are. And this engage means that they have an absentee rate of greater than 25% in their failing classes. 22% of the high school students in Connecticut are one of those. One out of five education isn't working. They're living in poverty. We have created a self-reinforcing cycle

that in children have, we didn't create an acceptable bottom. You create a situation where children, guns and gangs and children can't walk to school safely, shootings regularly in Hartford, Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut, just right up the road from us. Okay, exists. Pockets throughout this and then equal opportunity.

We do not have equal opportunity and to simultaneously have a situation in which we are not taking care of the basics, but we are really over, you know, doing the luxuries is creating a set of circumstances that's a problem, I think. And so, I think that's how man is with each other. So, it's a cycle. If you get spoiled, like this is the thing I worry about, you know, our family does, make sure our family doesn't get spoiled if the kids don't get spoiled because what happens is then they're not strong

That's a cycle. Yeah, you know, it's like three generations the classic three-generation cycle You know somebody works hard and they make it they have those sound values Then what happens is then they inherited it and then they are in a position where, you know, they don't have the same and they're spoiled and they say, I don't have to work as hard. I'm living off of what I've got and why don't I enjoy life and so on. And then while people around them may be are suffering and, you know, but I see it, I love and gratitude Connecticut, it's bridge forward Connecticut. People just don't have contact, they don't see it, I love in British Connecticut, it's Bridgeford Connecticut, people just don't have contact, they don't see it.

And so there are these cycles that happen. Many of them, they coincide. The cycle that I'm talking about, about attitude, about protecting, and how do we make a good society for the most, let's say the basic idea that we should strive for equal opportunity. Yes. I mean, that's a fundamental thing, equal opportunity. Yes. But that doesn't become the banner that either is pursuing.

So these cycles of conflict, wealth gaps, and all of those things exist. Yeah, it seems like, to me, when I hear that it perpetuates, and the cycle continues because it seems that not enough people have experienced. Exactly. Right, yeah. The cycle lasts longer than a lifetime. So you're only going to experience that piece

of the cycle in your lifetime, right? Wars, depressions, okay, they happened throughout history. Are we not going to go into a war again? Are we not going to have another depression? That's of course it. At some point we're going to have those things, okay? But we were lucky. 1945 was the end of the last war. We began a new era. We had this cycle in which things got better and better and better and there was a quality, better equality. I know the world I was born into. I was lucky. I was born in 1949. I had two parents who could take care of me. I went to a public school and I came out to a world which for me was a world of equal opportunity. When you have those types of things and

then things evolve and we're in a very different part of the cycle now. They mount the printing of money, the internal conflict, the external conflict, those types of things. We're in a different environment now. And we have to recognize that. And why? We never experienced it. Yeah. If we experienced it and had that that terror for it or the choice of what could be the joy of the alternative, we would be in a different position. Yeah, it also sounds like we haven't experienced that, but we also haven't experienced what it feels like to live in a culture of higher values. Right?

So, like when you were talking about early and I'm going a bit more micro, but to take it macro again, when you said in, you know and we create an organization where it's about meaningful work, meaning for relationships, radical transparency, if you've never worked in a culture like that, you don't know the value of it, and therefore you naturally have a culture of disagreement, arguments, disconnection. And so it's almost like, how do we get to a point where everyone does it? Like like you'll always go and

I'm going very micro here, but you'll always go for the junk food unless you've had healthy tasty food, right? It's just natural because we've been programmed to look for sugars, carbs, fats, you'll go for that unless you've had healthy tasty food accessible. Yes, and so on macro level, the challenge again comes that if you have junk values and you have healthy values, you naturally go for the junk values because that's what served you. And so it's like, how do you give people at scale

an experience of how living with equal opportunity or other healthy values is actually better for everyone? Right? Like, it's's how do we do that? Is that possible? Is that the goal? I think it's the same as good parenting, good mentoring, and the good work that you're doing. There are people on this broadcast,

and you're helping a lot of people. And I'm trying, in my way, to do the same. And then it's up here, comes in here. And then it has to be that visceral experience so that you start to experience the rewards of it so that you're afraid of not doing it, right? Have it. Okay. I talked about 18 months. Okay. You can change the behavior in 18 months. By and large behavioral change is like an 18 month thing. If you take somebody's alcohol, it's anonymous, or if you take all the things, can you develop the subliminal cue that you're working off to produce a reaction that becomes instinctual.

So you do it. That is the path. And wherever it comes from, whether it's coming from this, that, whatever we're doing, and then action that's taken to change one's habit and then experience the rewards of it, that, you know that's the cycle. I'm just saying you scientifically, right? I'm psychologically scientifically. That's what it is.

It's not a philosophical answer. It's just the way it is. Yeah, no, but that's what it is. It's building a new culture. And the culture starts with each individual building it within themselves. Right. And you're making another good point.

It's those things that I just said in a reinforcing environment, in which others share those things. And then it makes it the better, because that group reinforcing it, which is a culture, it has a great, great power over what's gonna happen. Culture is destined. I'm Eva Longoria. I'm Maite Gomez Rejoin.

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you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Romani, and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism. Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte, who was loved bomb by the Tinder Swindler. The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money he took. But I am here to help.

As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify the narcissists in your life. Each week you will hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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or wherever you listen to podcasts. Big love. Namaste. Cultures destiny, well. What are some of the things that you think after all these years, after all this study, after all this research, have become healthy things to aspire for? I think to be a human means to aspire. Like we're always seeking a sparring, wanting something. What do you think are healthy things

or how can people discover? Because I think we all, you know, everyone could go down the path and think, okay, there was a time, it's where you said, like there was a time when all I wanted was money or success, and then often when people get that, they go, well, that was good, but that wasn't it. Is the goal to just seek an aspire for what you feel at the time and then change it when you get there because you realize that wasn't it

or are there certain healthy characteristics or values that you think people can aspire for? I do agree on the journey and the evolutionary process of, in other words, you go after something, you experience it, you learn, and you evolve, and you're, so it's, I believe it's an evolutionary process, okay? So I think it is evolve well and contribute to evolution. If I was to say for me, what my aspiration is, is evolve well and contribute to evolution,

to know yourself. That's why to know yourself means know your nature. I put out a free test for everyone who wants it. It's called principles you. Yes. It's the universally determined and like the most effective test. Principles You, it's free online. You can go online and understand yourself, and it helps you understand other types of

people. So knowing one's nature and then finding the path for that nature is a very important thing. And number three, I would say, is meaningful work and meaningful relationships for most people. If you have something you're into and it's a passion and you have wonderful relationships, it's for almost all people wonderfully rewarding. So I would say it's, you know, those three things. Right, those are beautiful answers. It's always such a joy and pleasure to talk to you. I always learned so much.

And you set the tone when you said jazz, you gave us full permission to just go off piece and really co-create. And I love where we got to. I, you know, when we spoke last week and we were saying, what should we talk about out? And I love where we got to, you know, when we spoke last week and we were saying what should we talk about? And I never thought it would go in this direction, but I'm so satisfied by this meaningful conversation, because I think we went somewhere we didn't plan to, and that always

feels like a better end than what you did plan to as well. Well, this was like playing good jazz, but this isn't the end. No, no, no, please. Like what I'm telling you is that I'm coming back at you, man, right? Oh, okay. So I am going to, you ask me a lot of questions, okay? But what I'm going to do is I'm coming at you for your principles, okay? I want you articulated, and I'm going to give you those things because I want that to be put out, okay?

And distributed. And I want people to be put out and distributed. And I want people to vote them up for the best situation. How do you deal with a divorce, a death in the family? Whatever, I'm gonna give you a bunch of those types of questions. What's your formula for success? Okay, so imagine, now there's Jay Chettis and there's other people there

that they can vote those things up to get whatever they think is the best, which is essentially creating the principles for themselves or almost the way of life, the religion for themselves, that they think is going to be best. So I think that's a paramount important. I can't wait for that. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. It can contribute more excited to use. It sounds like a fantastic resource.

Are you developing that right now? Yeah. And the goal is that it will be every area of life. Every area of life. Business, family. That's right. I want anybody on anything to get the principles. Right. That's something. You just push the button, you say, I need help with. I've got a, I don't know, a ADD four-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Push the button.

What's the best principle? I'll be amazing. Okay. That's what I'd like to do. So tell me in terms of the journey of life, what are you going after? And why? How do you look at your journey of life? What are you going after, Why? And that's you and then

What do you think other people should do for their journey of life? Because they may go after different things So give me the more general answer that may not be Just yours So there's a few steps to this The first thing I'd say as a general is that there are for really important decisions that I believe we have to make in life and The first principle is how do I feel about myself?

I think that's a really important decision and choice we get to make every day is who am I and how do I feel about who I am and who I want to be? How do I feel about myself? Now, when we get there, I'm going to go to a principle that's going to help that. I'm going to pull it out of you. Yeah. So what do you do? Do you then, as you're making these choices, say, I'm experiencing this, and therefore I feel better. And then therefore that helps guide me

on what I should do. Yeah, so I think with that one, I think we're very aligned on the aspect of nature. I think we're very aligned on that. It's why I love the Principles of U Assessment. Like the idea of knowing that there is a wiring in the way that we've been created and evolved that allows us to be effective. And so for me, I have a short formula for that. And it's passion plus strengths

plus service. So I believe that your passion is what makes you happy. And when you use your passion in the service of others, it makes other people happy. And so when you add your passion in the service of others, it makes other people happy. And so when you add your passion to your strengths and you add it to service or contribution. It equals what? It equals purpose. Okay, purpose, purpose. Yeah. Okay, so people have to have a purpose.

Okay. And that equals the passion plus the strength. Plus contribution or service. The ability to use that in the service. Okay, there we go. There's a formula there. Right, there's a principle. Okay. That's the general.

That's the general. That's the first, that's only the first decision and that's the formula for the first decision. Overarking. Overarking. Yeah, like that for me has been, my dedication is to help people figure out their purpose because I believe that if we have people of purpose They'll be better people. They'll be better partners. They'll be better parents They'll be better professionals because I think what's missing in the world is a feeling of individual and collective value

I say and then we they know that they're getting it Because of how they feel about themselves. Yes, I think when you have purpose, what's fascinating about purpose is, I think one of the, and this is probably quite a nuance, but one of the signs of a lack of purpose is that we envy everyone. We wanna be like everyone.

We look at what someone does and we like, I wish I could do that, I wish I could do that. When one finds a sense of purpose, one can actually appreciate someone else for what they do really well because you realize that's their nature and that's what they were born to do. And this is mine and this is what I was born to do.

And so there's a lack of envy, I think is a great indicator to a sense of purpose. Like, I love what you do. I admire what you do. I could never do what you did over all these years, not because I'm insignificant or invaluable, or I'm not smart. It's just my spots are different,

and I'm meant to be following a different path. And we so agree of knowing what your nature is and getting that feedback. And by the way, we both like principles you as a way, as a step toward that. What about the life art? Yes. The second most important decision applies to the first is, what do I do for money? I think that's one of the, that's the second that applies to what we said. So that applies to the two things. Those first two things are solved by the equation we just discussed.

Like, what do I do for money? That's an important decision we have to make in life. Everyone needs to make money. Everyone needs to pay bills. So that's already there. The third most important decision we make in life is. I don't want to skip over that. Can we draw into that or should we go to the next one?

No, so we can drill into that. OK. Yeah, we can drill into that. OK, so how do you approach that question? I think that's what I'm saying. Some parts of it apply to the nature aspect. And I think the part that is missed mostly in that, and I love the author of flow, who talked about the beautiful

synergy between our challenge and our skills. So he said that we experience flow when our challenge meets our skills. When our skills are high and our challenge. So you said that we experience flow when our challenge meets our skills. When our skills are high and our challenges low, we feel bored, we feel disconnected, we feel disengaged. But when our challenge is high and our skills are low, we feel depressed, we feel lost, we feel confused. And so if we want to experience flow in life, we have to find where our skills meet our challenge. And to me, that's where how what we do for money, I think one of the biggest mistakes we make

is today people are only focusing on passion and not building their skills and their strengths. And so to me, when you're figuring out what you wanna do for money, you have to figure out what skill am I willing to get really good at? What am I genuinely willing to discipline myself to become phenomenal at?

And if I can do that, then that's a good thing for me. You're saying, which I agree with them willing to discipline myself to become phenomenal at. Right. And if I can do that, then that's a good thing for me. You're saying, and which I agree with, as we covered, know your nature and discover it along the way. But also, for me, it's, if I can make my work and passion the same thing and not forget about the money part. Yes. Then I am going to probably be successful because I'll be happy. I'll also be good at

what I'm doing. Yes. And the money part is an important part that you can't forget about. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think another principle ideally is to be self-sufficient plus, what I mean by self-sufficient plus, is that you're not dependent on the money coming from anybody else if you can. Yes. That because you then have, if it doesn't, come from anyone else in that way. First you're raising yourself to the level to be self-sufficient. And I don't really care whether that's at a high level of income or a low level of income. The important thing is that you're happy, that you pursue goals and that happiness and

that particular thing. But if you're self-sufficient, you mean you're free or self-sufficient. And it means also that you can help others because you've got some plus. What are your thoughts about where, that's one of mine. What about yours in terms of that measurement about money? How do you approach money? What is the right amount of money? Yeah, I would say that we're very aligned.

I think the right amount of money is what's right for you and what you're creating. But I love the self-sufficient plus because I had this conversation. I had to really rewire my relationship with money as I grow older because I was kind of trained to believe that I always needed just enough. I always grew up with just enough.

I started working when I was 14 and so zero in my bank account for many, many years. And that was fine. It was like, okay, I had just enough. I paid for that thing. Okay, if I have zero, that's good. I lived like that from 14 to 21. And then when I went back into the world of work, I just realized how that was not the way to live. And it wasn't I lived that way because I had luxuries. It was just what I had. It wasn't that I was

wasting money. It was just that I never knew how to make it, keep it, save it, invest it. And so when I rewired my relationship with money, I love self-sufficiency plus because to me, I also realized that being able to contribute, being able to give back, being able to pass on was such a healthy part of it, but so often we're trained that simplicity is having enough for yourself,

but having enough should include being able to also give, whatever that may be. Same experience happened to me and we're talking about the life arc. Like, for me up until, I guess it was probably, it was certainly my early 20s, I was exactly like you. Like, I like to do the things I like to do. If I've got enough money to do them, I'm having a blast. I don't need any more than that. Yes. And then I got to a point where I started to calculate

how many weeks I could live if not a dollar came in. Okay. If I could live, can I live a month? Can I live 12 months? Yes. I would calculate if I'm spending it this and I have this and I wanted to live, have enough freedom of that worry that I could have that amount.

And I got to the point where it was about three years. If I could have three years that I knew like I'm downtime and that gives me enough wiggle room. And so I started to realize that if I took the amount of money I had by the rate at which I spent it, and I calculated how long it would last, that that gave me that kind of perspective. And then I have a family. And then as I start to think of the family, that number changes. And of course, what, like you say, everybody then is an investor.

Correct. Because everybody's, how has that? Has to put it somewhere, got to know about it. But I have the same experience. I think that experience is part of the life arc. Yes. You know, you're earlier part of your life. It's every assuring to hear that.

It's normal. Then you get to a certain other part of your life. I'm reassuring to hear that. It's normal. Then you get to a certain other part of your life. Yeah, and I think the other thing for me and the measure that I give people is that, let's say when you start your working life, hopefully it isn't this case, but I think for the majority of people it will be, when you first start your career,

100% of your time at work is potentially doing something you don't love. And I think that's good for you. Yeah, that's good for you. It's important. It builds resilience, it builds character, it's great. But I think success and happiness to me is that as life goes on, that percentage starts to get lower and lower.

Well, I think it is. I think it's just that you do things for me anyway. It's that I do things that I don't love because I get things that I love more. Yes, I couldn't agree more. I say that about my life today, when everyone's like, oh yeah, you must love your life. And I'm like, I do plenty of things that I don't love to do in order to make time

in space to do what I love to do and do more of, I fully agree. But I think that percentage needs to shift, because you don't want 100% of your time at work to be doing something you don't love. Another principle I would say, and I want to get your thoughts on what pull out your principle, to shift, but you don't want 100% of your time at work to be doing something you don't like. Another principle I would say, and I want to get your thoughts on what pull out your principle, is own it and don't be the victim.

What I mean, yes, yes, yes. That person who describes this terrible thing and also tends to blame others. I didn't this thing happen and that thing happen. It's probably not looking at it as what do I do in this chest slit game of life that is now having these things come at me, where if you own it and you say, listen, this is your game, this is your life, and these things come at you, and now it's your move, and you've got to make those moves right. So you're thinking, not, whoa is me,

but you're thinking, okay, now I've got to do that. I think that's an important approach to life. What do you think of it? Yes. Or your version of something like that? Feel free to totally disagree with you. No, no, I wish, I mean, I'm not thinking I wish I disagreed with you.

I don't, because I think there's a lot of similarities. I've always called it change the situation, change yourself. And it's like, I think a lot of us, those are two choices. And I think a lot of the time we put a lot of energy into changing a situation. And to me, I think a lot of the time we put a lot of energy into changing a situation. And to me, that's a lot of the time that's out of our control what we were discussing. Like I can't decide the weather today. I can't decide whether someone's going to like me because of how I behave with them.

I can't change someone's complete energy or aura towards me. I can't always change the situation. But I can change how I view it. I can change myself. And Wayne Dyer had a beautiful statement where he said that, when we change the way we look at things, the things we look at change. And I think that's always been very important to me is that if I can't change the situation, how can I look at it differently? How can I change the lens through which I'm perceiving this? So I hear that connected to the thing that you said earlier about whether you're feeling

good for yourself. And it brings up another is, don't worry so much about the approval of others. Yes, yeah, that's a great one. I mean, that's a huge one. I mean, that's at the core of so much of this. I talk about, in my book, think like a monk, I talk about the four seas for the four types of people you'll meet in your life. And the problem is we're trying to find one person to do all of four of them.

So some people in your life are going to have character. You go to them because you know they have high character. That's why you trust them. They may not always be around. They may not always be available. They may not be, you know, they may not be next to you every day. But you go to them because you know, if you want to make a decision with high integrity, that person is a person of high character. Then you have someone in your life who's consistently there.

You have someone who's always been your friend, they've always been around, they don't necessarily give the best advice to the worst advice, but they're consistent, they're there, they're with you, they will go through the trenches with you and they're consistent, they don't always have the best next move or the best idea or insight, but they have value in the fact that they're loyal, they're consistent, but that is their value in knowing that. The third is care, someone who cares about you, I always give the idea of my mother. If I called my mom right now, I was like, mom, I was just with Ray, I just interviewed Ray Dahlia, I learned, or she would just be like, have you eaten today?

That's what my mom would ask me. She said, what did you have for breakfast? I was like, mom, I just spoke to Ray and she was like, no, no, no, what did you have for breakfast? What are you having for lunch? It's someone who cares for me. I'm not necessarily going to go to my mom to ask her for advice from my podcast, but I know she's the person that cares for me.

Like, I know she'll be there for me no matter what. And the final one is competence. There are people in our life who are high competence. They may not care about us. They may not have high character, but they're very competent in what they do. And I may take advice from them and that. So to me, knowing who to get approval of in different areas,

if I try and get career approval from my mom, she may never give it to me, because she's not happy for me to be on a plane, and she's not happy for me to be running around and missing meals. She doesn't approve of that. At the same time, I don't need, my spiritual teacher, for example, I go to him because he's a high character. But if I asked him for business advice, he'd say to me,

well, this is my integrity principle, but he's not necessarily going to give me investment advice. So I think becoming very clear about who I went to approval for, what became very useful. You see, these are coming out nice and quickly. It's like playing jazz, you know? Yes. There's something that jazz, you know. Yes. There's something that happens really quickly and it happens.

But it's very important to slow that down because I'm going to be able to take this. Okay, yes. I have it in the boat. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no. This is playing jazz together. I'm saying then to convert it to principles so that somebody can look it up. Yes.

Okay. This is why it's so great because I can take what you've done and we can look it up. Yes, yes. It's going to be, this is why it's so great. Because I can take what you've done, and we can put it there, and then somebody says, when I go for that moment, how do I push the button, and get the answer, right? It's going to be brilliant. Okay, this is an important thing. It's going to be fantastic.

Right, so I want to just keep pulling these things. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Yeah, I can want to just keep pulling these things from you, right? Yeah, I love it I can't wait to do more and you know, I won't we won't go into depth on these decision three and decision four The third most important decision we make in life is who do we give our love to and who do we receive love from? Mm-hmm. I think it's a huge decision. The most maybe the most maybe the most one of the most important One of the most important decisions the most important decision. One of the most important decisions. The most important decision, I'm sorry for the... No, I want to hear from you, please.

I was just at one of my son's weddings and I was just describing what it is and the piece that I have and I was making the point, which I truly believe, is who you pick as your life partner, the person you wake up with in the morning and who is in that life partner, is the most important decision you can make, probably.

It's certainly right up there. So you're touching on that. So I didn't mean to. No, no, I mean, no, hearing about your son right I agree with that. I fully agree. So that's what I hear you say. Yeah, yeah, it's exactly that.

And I think for me, I broke that down from research, from cultures, from working with clients in that space who have been married for a lot longer than I have. And of course, it would be wonderful to get your feedback. And wonderful Jim, who's both of our book agents as well, who's had a very long marriage himself. And so I'm always stress testing my ideas with Jim. I'm saying, Jim, what do you think of this?

But I came with three things. The first thing is, this is the obvious one. It's like liking someone's personality. You have to like them. They have to like it. That's obvious. We know that there's a sense of compatibility more than just chemistry.

I think people often, I was likening recently in analogy of like chemistry is like a spark. Like you like a match. There's like the spark. You hit the sound, you see the fire. But then the flame's gonna burn out, the match is gonna last like this long. But if you use that match to burn a candle, that candle's gonna give scent forever. It's gonna last, it's gonna burn and it'd be beautiful for so many people to experience. So that's that compatibility piece.

The second piece, which I think is rare, is like a deep awareness and respect for each other's values. So I think if you really love someone, they don't necessarily have the exact same values. I don't think they have, they may have similar versions, but they're never exactly the same. And I think respecting and being aware and encouraging the other person towards their values is really healthy. So I always give the example of me and my wife. My wife, her first value is family. That's her number one value. And my number one value is purpose.

They're very different and they can be conflicting often. I want to be on a plane when we have a family event. I'm at an event when we're doing this. But we found a way of respecting each other's values and then showing each other that we respect it. But we're not forcing each other to have the same value because we're different people. And then the third and final one I found is a dedication

to helping that person get to their goals, for them to reach their potential, that I love you so much, that I'm gonna help you get to your goal, not my projection of who you should be or who I wish for you to be, but who you wanna be, I'm gonna help you. Because I think that's the greatest act of love is that if you really love someone, you want to see them become the best person. Well, I'm very excited about taking these and

putting them in the writing and pushing the buttons so everybody can do it. Yeah, I'm excited. They're one of my new book, Eight Rules of Love. So that comes out next year, 31st January. What's the call? Eight rules of love. Okay, it's interesting. So there's eight in there. Have you taken the test of five types of love? I have, yes. Yes. Very good. It's a great test. It was so interesting to see it.

We did it at family, you know. Yes. My son's daughter in law is an emperor. What are yours? I'm interested. What are your love languages? Well, I'm acts of love. Okay, acts of service, yeah.

I am not the compliments. Yes, yeah. I am not the compliments. Yes, yeah, not words of affirmation. Or words of affirmation, yeah. No, I'm not words of affirmation, yeah. Right, right? Don't give me the words. Okay, good to know. And it's so interesting because I see it all the time

in our relationship. Yes. So being able to articulate that. Yes. I forgot what the other ones are. Yeah, there's words of affirmation, there's touch, it's gifts, touch, and time. And time. Quality time, yeah.

Quality time, that's important too. But I see it when we did the little test and we did it, we could see where sometimes it was going like that. Yes, yeah, completely. It can be totally opposite. Yeah, in other words, I'm giving you something. And you're not appreciating it because you're looking for the other type. Exactly. And it's so handy to do. And these personality profile tests are valuable in finding out our nature and operating that way. So I'm looking forward to your book. No, thank you. I think what you're doing in

Principles and putting them in one place. I think that's really special because yeah, if I went through my first book And now my second book there's so many principles in there But like you said, you know, you have to Flick pages to find them to be able to just search into an engine is a brilliant idea. I created a, what I call a coach, and it's in this, print, this app, principles for action. And the way it works is, because I was thinking, what do I need an answer to? And then it gets you to the right principle. Yeah, yeah.

Because if you have a book of principles, you don't have that access. So the app is needed to be able to say, okay, here I am, I'm in this situation, pull them, button, get the right ones, because you'll never find them, you'll never raise that book again. Why not use them? Yeah, absolutely, much quicker. And easily accessible. And I think the fourth one to finish of my piece, at least, was the fourth most important decision in the world is that we're making our lives is, how do we serve the world?

How do we help the world? And it's interesting to hear you because those four decisions that I talked about, they moved through the four stages of life as defined by the Vedas, which is what I studied as a monk. And so the four stages, which I've reconfigured into my language are, love yourself, love others, heal from pain, and then love the world. And I feel like that's the journey that we're being encouraged to go on in life is we first have to learn to love ourselves. Second, we learn to love others, wives, kids, families. Third, we have to actually heal from the pain

of love because sometimes love can, you know, there's a few thorns along the way, there's a few challenges and I feel sometimes we hold onto that bitterness and when you cure that bitterness you actually get the ability to love everyone, love everyone you mean and love the world. So the fourth stage is how do we learn to serve the world, how do we contribute to the world, which you're demonstrating at this stage in your life where you're like, I want to give back, I want to, I want to help. And so that's the fourth one. And it's so wise. I think that I didn't really appreciate in the middle part of my life, the power of love. I think that there's a accomplishment and you're focusing on accomplishment.

And sometimes that has conflict and you do the conflict. But you don't realize how enjoyable love is, how enjoyable giving love is and receiving love is or being in a loving community, which is also one of the reasons that the environment that I perceive now is so repugnant to me because it has so much the opposite of love. It has so much hate. It has so much anger. It has so much fighting in it that's so destructive that's so toxic. So that love and a society that has that, oh, it is true, that the greatest joy you get

is that experience of helping others and them and the connections and all of that, and it produces an environment that you want to be in. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that for those who are listening and love feels ethereal or elusive, I think as a basic, for me love is like safety plus understanding, right? If someone feels safe and someone feels understood, that is the beginning of love. It isn't loving itself, but people need to feel a sense, like, I feel safe with you and I feel understood by you. You know, that's the beginnings of that feeling. And in a workplace, safety and understanding are very core aspects that could

easily be implemented. And even in a relationship, fan. My view of what love is, is that I feel what you you feel so that it brings me happiness. Cause you have a relationship that, ah, you're well, you're happy. Yes. And that brings me happiness. Yes, that's beautiful. Yeah, feeling other people's pain, feeling other people's love,

like being able to have that ability. It hurts me. Yeah, it's your heart. Or it brings me joy. Yeah. Yeah, that is love. Yeah. That is really beautiful. And yeah, I think that's what it's so great. We've talked about so many different topics today. And it's amazing how how love is that one unifying force that we're all seeking for. But it's almost like there's just so many we've created so many barriers to love

There's just so many we've created so many barriers to love because we think love makes us weaker to some degree we feel that feeling someone else is pain or feeling someone else's joy somehow takes it away from us and and think like a monk I call it the I say that there are unlimited seats in the theater of happiness But we're living in a world that has made us believe there are a finite number of seats. Because now, if you want to go see a big sports game, there are a finite number of seats. There are a finite number of VIP tickets. And so that mindset has made us believe that even in the theater of happiness, there are a finite number of seats. But be reassured that your name is on a seat and you can claim it. No one else can have that seat.

It's there waiting for you. Well, for me, love works in that it reinforces my well-being and it reinforces my joy because it's part of that evolutionary process because I also get what your happiness is. And that's the sense. Because it's interesting, psychologists, in terms of what it produces happiness, they show that past the certain basic level of income or money, there's not a correlation between happiness and money. The highest is community. Across societies, if you have a sense of community, you have a higher level of happiness, you

live longer, all of those things. That is love, that is connectivity. I think that's a real power. Yeah, it's almost like saying, it's not about the journey, it's not about the destination, it's about community. That's the key thing. Meaningful work and meaning for relationships is a powerful combination.

Yeah. Well, I could do this with... Oh, so could I, I mean, we could literally... I mean, I'm so glad you did this. This is just... Yeah, this is beautiful. I'm so happy that you flipped it back on me. I got to share some things that I haven't really talked about

in that way yet. So, I really... Well, you expect more. Yes, I am going to organize it. I want to help you organize it. Yeah, I'm more... So that we put those principles in a way yet. So, I'm really expecting more. Yes, I am going to organize it. I want to help the organization. Yeah, I'm more, I love to. So that we put those principles in a good way. I think that is such a genius idea.

Honestly, I'm more in. Any, any help principle I can give to formatting, sharing, amplifying, I'm in. Great. It sounds incredible. Great. Honestly. The world would be a better place.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. What does it call? This is the app. This is on the app, or this is separate to the app. Well, this is going to be built that on the app. Perfect. We have the means by which we can collect them now. We haven't built the voting them up yet. Got it. So there's going to be on connected to this. Yeah. All people will input their principles and we're going to have all of these things and make them go on and they say, Jay Shetty's principles. Yeah, that's so cool. That'll exist.

That's so cool. And take a clip of this tape and put it on or whatever it is so that people can see it. But the voting upwards building, so that has to be built. That's brilliant. And we have a tool called the coach that will help to get them to the right principles, but that's got to be built up more. That's amazing. Well, we figure out the coach as well. There get them to the right principles, but that's gotta be built up more.

That's amazing. Well, we figure out the coach as well. There'll be some synergies there. Oh, okay. I'll show you the coach. Yeah, show me that. Yeah, because we have the first version. Exactly.

And I love your feedback and we're talking about how to do that. I've been incredible. Yeah, it's cool. Amazing. Everyone who's been listening and watching, I hope you've enjoyed the jazz. I can't play any instruments anymore. I don't have very still plays anymore.

No, my dad was a jazz musician. Oh, really? And I can't play any instruments anymore. I don't know if Ray still plays any. My dad was a jazz musician. Oh, really? And I can't play and it breaks my heart. Yeah, I learned the piano and the drum kit. Now I can't play either. But either way, I hope you enjoyed the music. I'm so grateful to sit down with Ray to have this free flowing conversation.

These are my favorite conversations where I literally feel like we're just co-creating, collaborating, inventing together. I highly recommend that you grab a copy of the journal. My principles, it's out right now. We've referred to a lot of different things, books and apps in the conversation. We'll put them all in the show notes,

so you have access to each of them. We have interviews with Ray on principles you, changing world order and principles as well, on the shows. If you want to go back and reference those, please feel free. A big thank you to Ray for being so generous with your time. I think we've been together for a couple of hours. I'm so grateful. Thank you to Jay. This is fun to play Jay.

Ray and Jay. Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Jemma Spig, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg, listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When my daughter ran off to hop trains, I was terrified I'd never see her again, so I followed her into the train yard. This is what it sounds like inside the box-top. And into the city of the rails, there I found a surprising world, so brutal and beautiful that it changed me. But the rails do that to everyone. There is another world out there, and if you want to play with the devil, you're going to find them down in the rail yard. Undenail Morton, come with me to find out what waits for us and the city of the rails. Listen to City of the rails on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

your podcasts. Or, cityoftherails.com. The world of chocolate has been turned upside down. A very unusual situation. You saw the stacks of cash in our office. Chocolate comes from the cacountry, and recently, Variety's cacao, thought to have been lost centuries ago, were re-discovered in the Amazon.

There was no chocolate on Earth like this. Now some chocolate makers are racing deep into the jungle, to find the next game-changing chocolate, and I'm coming along. Okay, that was a very large crack it up. Listen to the obsessions while chocolate. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.