On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Reid Hoffman ON: The Entrepreneur’s Mindset & Why What Got You Here Won’t Get You There

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

Do you want to meditate daily with me? Go to go.calm.com/onpurpose to get 40% off a Calm Premium Membership. Experience the Daily Jay. Only on CalmJay Shetty chats with Reid Hoffman about entrepreneurship. As a known personality in the business world, Reid tells us how business people become successful entrepreneurs, how to identify which ideas are worth cultivating, the art of saying “Not right now”, and the value behind experimentation. Reid is an internet entrepreneur, venture capitalist, podcaster, and author. Hoffman was the co-founder and executive chairman of LinkedIn, a business-oriented social network used primarily for professional networking. He is currently a partner at the venture capital firm Greylock Partners. He's also the host of the Masters of Scale Podcast, where he shows how companies grow from zero to a gazillion, testing his theories with legendary leaders.Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/What to Listen For:00:00 Intro03:11 How did you become an entrepreneur?05:44 The mistake you shouldn’t avoid08:57 Defining growing and scaling a business13:28 The ideas that will actually work17:53 Frequently, you'll say, “Not right now.”20:27 Every YES involves a leap of faith 23:47 If it’s really important, experiment with it26:33 The path that got you here isn’t the path that will get you there30:51 Ask, “What won’t work about this idea?”38:28 The most critical part of hiring42:15 Culture should always seek excellence, but specific 46:54 Spend time observing the unguided and unforced interaction with the product or service50:54 Entrepreneurial journeys are team sport53:12 Reid on Fast Five  Episode ResourcesReid Hoffman | LinkedInReid Hoffman | TwitterReid Hoffman | WebsiteMasters of Scale PodcastSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender and visible things we don't usually talk about?

I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by stellar guests like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our 20s often say is this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes, and figure out our lives.

But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the Psychology of Your 20s. Each week, we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s. From career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You don't really say, well, I just want to get a yes. And it's like, well, you're not going to just get a yes, especially if you have something that's bold and original different, because a bunch of people are going to say, well, I don't get it, right?

Like, I don't get that people want to buy flavored water without sugar. I don't get that, there's all of these things that we go into on Masters of Scale that say, actually, in fact, sometimes when you get a bunch of people who say, I don't get it, that's precisely when you have something that's called. Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.

Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now, you know that I don't take your ears for granted. I'm grateful that you take out so much time out of your days to listen and learn whether you're walking your dog or you're at the gym or whether you're driving to and from work or wherever you are right now. Thank you for choosing on purpose. And this is a conversation that I have been excited to have for a very long time. Today I'm speaking to none other than Reed Hoffman. Now Reed is an accomplished entrepreneur

and that is an understatement. He's an investor. He has played an integral role in building many of today's leading consumer technology businesses. He's of course the co-founder of LinkedIn and an investor at Greylock. He's the host of his own podcast, Masters of Scale. So you're going to see a master at work today. An original podcast series and the first American media program to commit to a 50-50 gender balance for featured guests. He's the co-author of four best-selling books, The Startup of You, The Alliance, Blitz Scaling, and his newest book with the same name of his podcast,

Masters of Scale, surprising truths from the world's most successful entrepreneurs. Read, welcome to On Purpose, and thank you for being here. It's great to be here. I love your show. I've listened to it as much as I listen to any podcast, including my own, which is every moment I have time for.

And if I had a little bit more commutes outside of the pandemic, I think my listening to all of these quality podcasts most centrally yours, look at what. That's so kind, Dread. I'm Humboldt, and I'm touched, and the feeling is mutual. I love your podcast too,

and that's what I was just thanking you offline that I'm so grateful that you've synthesized all of this incredible wisdom from all the phenomenal people you've interviewed into a book that we can easily look at, read, skip to chapters, look at challenges, understand stories. And as we're talking about before, what I love about the book is that it's the stories, it's the psychology, it's the tips, it's the insight, it's everything, it's this very 360 degree approach. But, Reid, I want to

start with your life not as an entrepreneur, but as an employee. And your first paying job was an editor at a gaming company. And you also wanted to become a professor, which makes me think you were gearing up to be an employee, either a school or an incredible faculty or and of course you did as a gaming company. When did the idea of entrepreneurship first spark your intriguing curiosity and how much were you already convinced you were going to be an entrepreneur or were you always thinking you were going to be an employee? So I don't think the category of employee or entrepreneur had actually really occurred to me. I always think in terms of projects, I always think in terms of what the work is, what the activity, what you're building. And I don't think it was until years later. I don't think it was until years into LinkedIn that I was like, all right, entrepreneur is the word that describes the activity that I'm doing. Like it wasn't really like, I'm going to be an entrepreneur, that's really, it was more like,

what do you build, what do you fashion? And that was, you know, all the way back to, you know, great research, not that many people know that I kind of, you know, talked my way into the door of a gaming company when I was 12 and then ended up doing some work for them. So, you know, good research for that. But that was because I was interested in fantasy role-playing games, you know,

Dungeons and Dragons and so on. So I was like, this is what I want to spend my time doing. So I want to get in that door and I want to connect with the people who were doing this. And then, you know, kind of similarly. And then I think I became an entrepreneur because when I started thinking about the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the impact that I wanted to have in the world, the way that I wanted the insights that I thought I had that could be operationalized, you know, was coming about from the very earliest days

of the internet. And with the various earliest days of the internet was, how do we live in this medium by which all of us as individuals and as groups were made better off? And what kind of products can you create there? And when I looked at kind of like, what were the things I could possibly join,

none of them had the kind of the shape of what I wanted to create. And so that made me an entrepreneur. And I wasn't reluctant, but I was completely focused on, this is the future that I want to build. And so that naturally aligns with entrepreneurship. What I love about that read is that not having these buckets almost of thought

of saying, I have to choose, actually helped you find the right path. And I think often we put these very binary, black and white choices in front of people and we say, well, do you want to work for someone or do you want to be an entrepreneur? And in one sense, they're both the wrong questions. It seems like the right question, as you said,

is to be project focused, is to thinking about what you actually want to do or what you want to build and which home allows you to build that more successfully, which I think is a brilliant insight. So I really appreciate that. I wanted to understand that when you started your first company social net, could you share with us the mistakes that you made and which mistakes you don't want our audience to avoid? I think often the question is, well, really, what mistakes should I avoid when I start a company? I want to ask you the opposite question. What mistakes were just so integral that you had to make when you started your first company that you would want

other people to have. It is a absolutely great question. And one of the kind of, I think one thing you learn about business and entrepreneurship as aphorisms and I think one of the aphorisms that's apropos here is I never learned so much except for maybe between the ages of two and three when I jumped off the cliff for my first company.

And people obviously, and by the way, I normally advertise, here's the landmine you avoid, you know, here's the tour, but that, but your question is also a really great one. I would tend to say the mistakes that I made that I think are still, that are integral to being successful on entrepreneurship. One is jumping off the cliff, a biased action.

If you think about it and clear headed way, there's all kinds of things you don't know before you start a company. I didn't really know, I could never start a company before, didn't know about financing, didn't know about what your initial hires would be, didn't know how to scope a project for the first product release, didn't know which things were kind of the classic mistakes. Now that I think

I could have done a little more research on and probably would have been like my advice to my younger self would be, call a few people, you know, and kind of avoid the obvious mistakes, so you make the unobvious mistakes. But I think the predisposition to kind of jumping off the cliff and going was I think one of the things that was a central, you know, you say it's like, in bodies a whole bunch of mistakes, but you have to make those mistakes, and you have to know that you're making them.

It's almost like, boy, I know I'm gonna get into a bunch of fenders, grapes, and I'm gonna bounce off the side of the highway, and that kind of thing, but that's the only path forward, so here we go. And hit the accelerator. Yes, I love that answer., but that's the only path forward. So here we go and hit the accelerator. Yes, I love that answer. I think that's at such a great one because I think you're so right that if you actually think coherently and in an organized way, you wouldn't do what 99% of entrepreneurs have had to do.

And that becomes your biggest block because chances are your first swing is not going to be successful anyway, but knowing that and still going away and still trying to do that allows you to get over that hurdle of being very sensible and thinking more responsibly. So I think that's a brilliant answer. I wanted to ask you,

because I think lots of entrepreneurs or people who want to be entrepreneurs and we're gonna go through the book through chapters that I found really powerful. But I wanted to start off by saying, you called your podcast and the book Masters of Scale. And as soon as I heard that title when I first started listening to the podcast,

I loved it because I always wanted to be able to spread wisdom at scale, but with intimacy and depth. And that was always my fascination of how could you spread something that was for everyone, but speak to one person and really feel like you're connected to one person. What is the difference between scaling and growing a business and how you define

what a master of scale is? I think there's a little bit like other important words in concepts in our human space, like friendship and so forth. It's a little deliberately amorphous on kind of where that kind of scale and mastery goes because we want it to be everything from, you know, what the classic things would wouldn't know and think about is building businesses like LinkedIn or Airbnb or, you know, or Uber or Google or any of these things that you're that they building these things of industry redefining society, redefining, hopefully massively improving

kinds of things is kind of the scale that you're targeting for. And mastery is the mastery of running the kind of the slalom course with minefield and fog and all the rest, which is this, is the thing that matters is getting the scale. That's what we essentially target. It's not just the entrepreneurs, but executives and employees and people who care about what these companies or organizations are doing. But we also hope that the tools will apply in a wide variety of other things. You could say, well, I think the only way of solving climate change is scale technology,

but also the only way of improving human society is scale wisdom. So how would you take these tools and make them available across the entire set to think about how do we remake ourselves and our societies at the global or at the transnational scale? Yes, absolutely. I love that differentiation because just like the word entrepreneur, I remember I was speaking to a really good friend of mine who founded ClassPass, Pyle Cadac here. And I believe she's been on your show, actually. And yes, and I remember speaking to her about that, she was, you know, she's also a very big fan of the show too. And she was talking about her definition of an entrepreneur is

someone who tries to solve a problem, right? Not someone who starts a business. And she was saying, you know, you could be selling X or Y or Z on the internet and call it a business and call yourself an entrepreneur, but she was saying that entrepreneurs are really trying to solve a problem. They're addicted and obsessed with that. And I think just like that is you're defining the difference between growth and scale. That differentiation is important for us as we start to build our journey or careers. Now in chapter one, you're talking about getting,

oh sorry, yes. No, let me just add one thing that piles excellent definition and her episode is great. I recommend it to everyone. She was one of the people I have to like to meet through doing a podcast is that one of the awesome things about us doing these podcasts is chance to meet other really interesting people.

An entrepreneur is a person who's solving a problem, but in particular, she or he is solving a problem where she doesn't yet have either all the resources or the knowledge or all of the tool set in order to do it. So you have to actually, like if you were to say, do I have everything laid out in front of me in order to solve that problem? Unlike, for example, I could say for a piece of word working,

I could make a bed frame, do I have everything out in front of me? The answer is on entrepreneur, you don't, and you may not even get know how. And that's one of the key things about the entrepreneurial journey. I love that addition as well. Yes, building your bed frame from an IKEA box is not, does not count. It's all laid out for you. I have to say, I love that.

Chapter one in the book. And I always like to give people a little bit of a taste when we're talking about a book, because my genuine hope for everyone who's listening and watching wherever you are is that you go and grab a copy of this book. It's going to be my new book that I recommend to each and every single person who comes to me and says, do you have an idea or I don't know what to do with it?

I don't know where to start. How do I go about it? This is the book that I'm going to give them. Or even if you say, yeah, don't have an idea. I just, I'm a bit curious about all of this. All my friends are becoming entrepreneurs. I see it all over the world.

How do I do that? This is the book I'm going to be giving to people. So I love to give people a taste. Now in chapter one, you talk about getting to know. And accepting rejection and hearing knows can be really draining and really difficult, especially when we've been trained to expect and want a yes.

Now, now you mentioned in the book, the Contrarian Principle, and this is also one of the principles you mentioned in your other book, Blitz Scaling. So I wanted you to actually describe that principle to us and talk about how do we get used to hearing no and what is that no really asking us to do? So the Contrary in Principle is in order to achieve something bold, different of scale.

Frequently, if it's an idea that lots and lots of people have had, it's much harder to get there, whether it's an entrepreneur or an investor. And so you generally want to choose an idea, choose a path, choose a product, for service, whatever, which is contrarian, but right. It's very easy, of course, to be contrarian and wrong, because there are many, there's many foolish things to do in the world. And so you go, well, you're a lot of people think that that might be wrong, but

actually in fact, you have had some insight or you and your team and your colleagues, your friends have had some insight that you could say, okay, this is how we're going to do it. Now part of how that gets to dealing with knows is, say, for example, and by the way, generally speaking, it's a good idea. You try to convert crises in opportunities. It's a precise kind of mindset, strengthening exercises and balance and poise that you go across a set of podcasts with on purpose,

which is, you don't really say, well, I just wanna get a yes. And it's like, well, you're not gonna just get a yes, especially if you have something that's bold and original and different, because a bunch of people are gonna say, well, I don't get it. Like, I don't get that people will wanna buy to say, well, I don't get it, right? Like, you know, like, I don't get that people will want to buy flavored water without sugar.

I don't get that, you know, there's all of these things that we go into on masters of scale that say, actually, in fact, sometimes when you get a bunch of people who say, I don't get it, that's precisely when you have something that's gold. Now, so the question is, well, how do you deal with the psychology of it? The answer is, well, approach knows not as a rejection of you, rejection of your idea, rejection. It is obviously a form of rejection, but where you might be able to learn something from it,

where you might be able to understand something about the way the world's working. So if actually, in fact, it's a certain kind of know where people say, well, everyone knows that you, that selling flavored water without sugar because everyone wants sugar water Won't work and you're like, aha, maybe I have something well everybody knows that no stranger is gonna rent a Room or apartment to another stranger. Aha. I may have something and so you can bring those nose in and And then part of the categorization that we do within that first chapter,

because that's part of the reason when you open the book with this, is to give you a sense of, well, which way should you responding to different kinds of nose? Because sometimes it's a no and a thoughtful one from an expert that you should dig into some, understand some of why they think that.

Sometimes it's a no, that's, it's a stereotype and just a reflection. And so then you understand that it's a stereotype and just a reflection. And so the you understand that it's a stereotype. Sometimes it's because the person's not engaging, in which case you should waste no more time with this person. And so that's the kind of thing of treating it as a learning journey, which of course is fundamental to life and of course entrepreneurship,

is the way to reorient the mindset in order to say it's not rejection, it's part of the hero's journey you're on. Yes, yeah, I'm glad you referenced the hero's journey there as well. And for those of you that have not read it, Joseph Campbell and other writers have spoken beautifully about the hero's journey. And rejection is just such a beautiful part of it when you look back. And when you, like you said, it's psychological. We think it's specific to the idea or the business. Actually, it's all psychological in hearing, no, and being rejected and still finding a way to continue.

And I really, really resonate with that insight that you just shared around how one of our biggest challenges is that we are trying to get this unanimous, yes, and unanimous consent and you say that in the book. You're just like, you're actually dubious when there's unanimous consent because you think it is self, well, this can't be good then. If everyone into yourself, well, this can't be good

then. If everyone agrees with it, then this can't be the right idea. And I found that so refreshing because I think we've been trained to think the other way that if everyone agrees, you're probably on to something, especially people in power. But if people in power disagree with you, you're actually saying, well, there could be something to learn, but there could be an opportunity here as well. One of the things that I wanted to ask you about this was, is there something, have you been able to in your life as an investor apply that, or have you sometimes felt that no,

this is definitely not going to work, and then something became really successful, right? There have been a time when you thought, I've thought about this, there's stuff to think about, or have you stopped saying no? Have you started saying maybe if, when, or do you still say no? Oh, it definitely still say no. Because the average, you know, kind of, a general partner adventure from,

looks at 600 to 800 deals a year and says yes to zero to two of them. And now, you generally speaking almost never, will you rarely say no in a way that's kind of like, no, never talked to me again? That's if someone's kind of just really not the right fit. Right? And it's just like, look, don't waste your time,

don't waste my time, this is good. Frequently, you'll say, not right now, when you try to partner with people and be good for entrepreneurs, the not right now may very well be, here's some of the challenges that I have right now and I hope and anticipate you're gonna be really successful and maybe a future path is a time that we will talk about.

Now, there's kind of this psychological categorization of false positives, false negatives, otherwise known as type one and type two errors. Very rarely when you're doing things moving at speed, like investing, if you're not making both type one and type two errors, both false positives and false negatives, you're not doing the game the right way, right? You're being too conservative one way or the other. So if you're too, too many positives, then you're not making, you know, you're, then you're making a set of mistakes and too many negatives, you're making a mistake. And so for me, when I look at this as, I think entrepreneurship and investing has this kind of yin and yang bringing together that yes and the no, that, hey, I could see this vision, but I see the risks, but I put it together and I make a decision. And I think

that's part of what we find it to be super interesting. And I think that's part of what we find it to be, you know, kind of super interesting. And I think that's the way I try to balance it, which means that frequently I will say no, although my most often no is trying to be helpful, like being like, you can almost look at the over the side of the chapter was, yes, I know that I'm saying no, but I'm trying to be as helpful as I possibly can to this person who's on this ridiculously hard journey. And this is their, at the moment, their life's treasured work in so doing. And so, anyway, that, a long, kind of tendril-answered to your question, but I think worth it. A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there.

There's just this sexy vibe, a Montreal, this pulse, this energy. But what has been seen as a very snotty city? People call it Bosedangeless. New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay. A great way to get to know a place is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Newdum and not lost as my new travel podcast where a friend and I go places, see the sights and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. We're kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party.

It doesn't always work out. I would love that, but I have like a Chihuahua who is aggressive towards strangers. I love the dogs. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm going to die alone when I'm traveling.

But I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too. And also, we get to eat as much time thinking about how I'm gonna die alone when I'm traveling. But I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too. And also, we get to eat as much. I'm very sincere. I love you too. Mike's a lot of therapy goes behind that. You're so white, I love it. Listen to not lost on the iHeart Radio app

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Yvonne Gloria. I'm Mike DeGolmes, Dr. Horn. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungry for History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories,

decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Corner flower. Both. Oh, you can't decide. I can't decide. I love both. You know, I'm a flower tortilla flower. Your team Oh, you can't decide. I can't decide. I love both. You know, I'm a flower tortilla flower. Your team flower?

I'm team flower. I need a shirt. Team flower, team core. Join us as we explore surprising and lesser-known corners of Latinx culinary history and traditions. I mean, these are these legends, right? Apparently, this guy Juan Mendes, he was making these tacos wrapped in these huge tortilla

to keep it warm, and he was transporting them in Avurro, hence the name the burritos. Listen to Hungary for history with Ivalangoria and Maite Gomez Rejón as part of the Michael Thura Podcast Network available on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is what it sounds like inside the box card. I'm journalist and I'm Morton in my podcast City of the Rails. I plunged into the dark world of America's railroads, searching for my daughter Ruby, who ran off to hop train.

I'm just like stuck on this train, not now where I'm gonna end up, and I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters, living outside society, off the grid and on the edge. I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom this community. No one understands who we truly are. The Rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, and the thing we call the American Dream. It's the last vestige of American freedom. Everything about it is extreme. You're either going to die, or you can have this incredible rebirth and really understand

who you are. Come with me to find out what waits for us in the city of the rails. Listen to city of the rails on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com. No, no, no, great answer. I'm really glad that you got in the weeds there, Rita. I appreciate it. On the flip side, read, what is, what's been one of the most surprising yeses that you've

given or you've seen in investing of a company that we may or may not recognize? But what has been the most surprising yes, you've ever seen, heard of, given yourself, that maybe again, if you looked at it coherently, you would have been like, hmm, it was actually more intuitive, it was more a feeling, it was more an experience, it was more just a gut. Has that ever happened? Do you see that? Well, definitely, because both as entrepreneurs and as investors, when you're at the earliest stages, the C, the Series A, it's a vision where you don't know how to get from here to

there, right? You've got a theory of the game, but you don't actually know how to get there. And so frequently, every yes involves a leap of faith, involves a, look, I think this entrepreneur, she or he, this team, this idea, this time, this technology, look, I think this entrepreneur, you know, she or he, this team, this idea, this time, this technology, yeah, I think they could get there. And so every, this every yes has a little bit of that characteristic at these very early stage kind of judgments. Perhaps the funniest one was Airbnb, which my very, very first investment that I brought

to Greylock. And I'm, was that Greylock because David Z, who was my partner at Greylock, was my most valuable board member at LinkedIn, kind of like convinced me to come join Greylock. I was like, oh great, and I have a great culture of partner with entrepreneurs and feeling like you're the invited partner versus the big man on campus

is kind of a way of collaborating with entrepreneurs. And so I bring an Airbnb and I'm like, oh, I think this is really interesting. And David looks at me across the partnership table and says, well, every venture capitalist has to have a deal that they fail on that they learn from. And Airbnb can be yours. And so here is this storied, amazing venture investor

going, oh, this is a complete complete idiotic idea, but go ahead. Right? And so, and I thought about it. Now it wasn't so much the intuitive part of the question, but I thought about it and I thought really hard and I went, you know, I still think it's worth doing. So he's given me permission to do it. So I'm gonna go do it.

Right, and by the way, today it's credit because he's a learner as well. Six months later, no change in the data, and then I was, he came to me and said, you were totally right to make this investment. What did you see that I didn't see? And I said, well, you were right. Cities could react. It's a strange experience. You know, hotel lobbies are going to react. All of the stuff. The question is, is if they had a good plan on all this stuff? And the world they were building toward was the world we should

be living in. And if they could navigate through those on all this stuff and the world they were building toward was the world we should be living in. And if they could navigate through those landmines, it would be amazing. And so he was like, oh, okay, got it. And then off to a more contrarian, but seeking to be right investments. Yes, I love that. And I love that question that he asked you like,

what did you see that I didn't see? I mean, that is such a cumulative wisdom opportunity. If you're always asking that question, when you get something wrong or make a mistake or someone gets something right, I mean, the way that that can accelerate your learning and knowledge is absolutely huge. Absolutely beautiful. I love that. Chapter two is called, do things that don't scale. Which again, you're

just playing with us, Reed, you're completely playing with us. I'm like reading a book called Masters of Scale. You're now telling us things, do things that don't scale. What do you think most startups do wrong in the early stages of their business? What are the biggest mistakes? That question, we were going to be talking for the next three weeks. Because there are many, many ways to fail. It's one of the reasons why I'm asking the scale. We try to go, here's an interesting pattern to possibly navigating the minefield. Here's an interesting pattern.

Here's a good sensor, you know, kind of concepts for doing this. Part of the reason why we put this in is because the natural thing that everyone goes, okay, I got it, scales religion, I'm only gonna do things at scale. And you actually, in fact, say, well, actually every successful entrepreneurial venture, all of these things that have gotten a scale have done a set of things along the path

that were essential to succeeding that were not themselves scale activities. And so people might buy into the religion too blindly. And you actually say, look, I know that I only succeed when I really get to the scale, whether it's the business or climate change or wisdom. But if I don't do some things that are kind of experimenting with product market fit, taking some experiment and innovation, whether it's an organization, a go-to-market, the organization of how you run or go to market.

If I'm not doing some of that, I may miss that critical path that unlocks the journey to magic at scale, the journey to how this really works in transforming the world and society we're living in. And so there's a whole set of different kinds of techniques where you go, well, that won't scale, so we're never gonna do it.

It's like, well, look, if you think it's really important, experiment with it, see what's doable, and then you go, wow, it's really important. Okay, so what version of this might I be able to scale? And that's essentially the through line through the chapter, which of course opens with, you know, Brian Cheskin, Airbnb again. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, no, I think that that again is a really significant note because it's so easy to just get lost in the numbers. And I really feel that it's even with the work I do. I found that ultimately, can you help one person have an incredible experience? And when you can do that for one person, you get trusted to do it 10, and then a 100,000, then a million, and a billion, whatever it may be. It's the idea of like I really feel like being able

to give one person a unique experience and you just learn so much about that. And you learn so I know that any founders that I know, they say, you know, they spend all their time looking at customer service in the beginning to try and figure out like what part of the journey where people not truly feeling was working or was flowing for them. There's such a attention to detail there, which is often ignored when actually started off-right, but maybe didn't apply some of this wisdom and you saw them fall off. And again, I'm not trying to point fingers or name names.

I'm trying to understand more that have you seen that where it looks like everything's going great, but then there's something that isn't external, but internal that breaks down. Well, there's a number and to some degree, any of the ones that were super hot once upon a time and then went away, web van or kind of all advantage or an early search engines, excite or kind of excited home. There's all of these things that said,

look, something broke along that path to scale. There's also ones that, like also failed to get to scale. There are those patterns as well. And so it's a whole set of things where, you know, part of the journey of scaling is the problem changes, like we open with the discussion of entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs or problem solvers, too often one of the things that happen to your problem solvers,

oh, I saw this version of the problem. And so I've got the tool, that's the hammer, I'm gonna keep doing it. And the scale journeys involve, you know, and that's why. And so I've got the tool, that's the hammer I'm going to keep doing it. And the scale journeys involve, you know, and that's why we have another chapter learned to unlearn is changing the tool set up and the path that got you here is not necessarily the path that we get you there. And so sometimes you have to say, well, that really helped us launch our product, but the scale model is actually, in fact, doing deep embedded into SGO and Google or the scale model is

Moving to tele sales and an enterprise model to it to bring to my product I'm of example like one of the things that was not anticipated that linked in is we thought for the first X-years it would all be individuals only and we thought individuals would expanse there next year is it would all be individuals only. And we thought individuals would expense their recruiting, or their sales, or their problem solving to the company. But we found that the company started docking at our door almost before we'd launch our subscription product going, well, we want an enterprise product.

It was like, oh, and by the way, this is kind of classic entrepreneurship. It was like, okay, so we listened. We said, well, that's different than our plan. How do we measure this? How do we have a bias to speed, action, and learning? And we said, well, that's different than our plan. How do we measure this? How do we have a bias to speed, action, and learning? And we said, okay, well, let's create a PowerPoint deck that describes a product, by the way, at this moment,

is totally fictional. Like, we literally sat around for a weekend and said, the product could look like this. So let's mock it up, create a PowerPoint deck, and then go out and say, well, this is the product we're working on. What do you think about it? Would you about it?

Would you buy it? Right. And the first sales people were very entrepreneurial. They're not the same as the scale success sales people that LinkedIn has now. But those really came back and they said, well, we got some weird feedback on this one. We changed that. But this is the product. We think that a bunch of people will initially buy and so then we went and built it.

And that's kind of classic for these kind of entrepreneurial journeys. Yeah, I love that. I love that. It's always, I find that in all success for entrepreneurial journeys, you see this pivot, you see this moment where you're now creating something that wasn't the plan, it wasn't the business model, it wasn't the way you thought you were going to get to success or scale or speed, rarely comes from something internally as well, right? It comes from how the customer's using it, playing with it, who's asking the right questions. In chapter three, Reed, you talk about the big idea,

what is the big idea? And I feel like, and I'm asking this question, you probably, I mean, you probably get this question all the time, I think it's important to ask it because I do think this is the majority of people that I connect to, that I meet, that I hear when I'm recording the podcast is, I think I have an idea,

but I'm too scared to take action on it or take it seriously because the whole journey seems overwhelming. Do I have to fundraise or not? Do I have the skills or not? Are there too many competitors that are doing the same thing? Is my idea even original? I saw 10 companies like this fail last year. These are the things that go through our head. And then the most basic one, what will my friends say when this doesn't work out, right? Like the most, what will my parents think of me that I left my college education to do this or I quit law or to do this?

These are the kind of things we're hearing all the time. What do you say to people when they say that to you or when you see that or when you hear that? And I get that that's a big broad question, but how do you try and help people narrow it down? It's a very complicated question because it comes that way down to the individual and the individual's goals, purposes, strategy,

risk tolerance, what kind of activity they want. And so you have to always condition it based on it. Now, a few general principles, which again, apply very differently depending on, you know, kind of, kind of who you are, is, and what circumstances you're in. How much risk can you take? Entrepreneurship always involves risk. Even if you think you've de-risk the idea a lot, there's always a lot of unknown unknowns and part of entrepreneurship you have to deal with the unknown unknowns in order to do this. I think there's a question around you don't do an entrepreneurial idea

unless you can think of yourself doing it for the next 10 years because part of success is like would this be worth at least 10 years of my life in so doing? And if not, then great, not the thing that you need to do. Right? And then when you go and talk to your friends about it and try to get some wisdom of the crowds around how does the thing work, you don't ask them, do you like the idea? You don't ask them, do you think it can work?

Because they will think that what you want is reassurance. What you want to say, what won't work about this idea? What could cause the idea to fail? Because if you get that feedback and then you begin to aggregate this, this also gets back to the learning from those that we were talking about, you aggregate that feedback,

then you have a better chance of taking smart risks, including choosing whether or not to do it. Now one last little kind of pro entrepreneurial tip for people who are daunted, which is another thing that good entrepreneurs do is they kind of figure out how to experiment. So you say, well, I've got this idea. It's an idea for a new app, maybe it's an idea for a mindfulness or wisdom app or something and say, well, all right. But I'm really nervous about doing this. What could I do?

Well, I could go buy some, you know, kind of, I could go put up a webpage, describe what it is, say click on, click on here if you're interested in this and then buy some advertising against it and then see what the click-throughs look like. And if the click-throughs look totally fantastic,

then I was like, well, maybe shoot, that's data. Maybe I should go do this and I could have described it on the list. And if the click-throughs look totally fantastic, then I was like, well, maybe shoot. That's data. Maybe I should go do this. I've described it on the list. If the click-throughs look bad, then you can say, well, maybe I didn't do the experiment the right way, or maybe I shouldn't do this. There's ways to experiment with things. People too often get stuck in their mind when do and then reflect think.

Do reflect think, do reflect think, right? And, and be in that cycle on a relatively quick basis, is central to solving these unknown, unknown problems. Yeah. I'm so glad you added that last piece. I, I feel like experimenting is, is one of the greatest assets in skill. And the best thing about experiments are they can be free or very cheap. They can be very quick to do.

You don't have to build for a year or waste time in your life. You could literally build it this weekend if you felt like it and tested something. And you get immediate feedback and response from people that are not connected to your family or your friends or people that you feel, oh, well, they're saying it because they're connected or they don't like it because I'm their friend and they know me and they want me to stay safe. And so I couldn't agree with you more that I remember when I first was starting what I was doing, I think experimenting even today has always been my favorite way of realizing whether I should do something or not.

And I love it because anyone who's sitting there going, it costs too much. Experimenting is free or cheap. Please remember that. It takes too long. No, it doesn't. This could literally happen this weekend. And oh, it's, you know, well, who's going to use it anyway? You have no idea, that's the fun of it. And so I'm so happy you really emphasized that point at the end, because there's no better way to see whether your idea actually has legs. And oh, yes, please read good.

Yeah, let me add one thing to this, which is, people always think experiment is out in the world. Sometimes the experiments with yourself too. How does this make you feel? Do you feel stressed by it? Do you feel stressed by it? Do you feel energized by it? That experimentation is also good. We have this presumption,

because we're in our own heads that we're the best experts of ourselves. And the answer is, of course, we have a depth of experience and all the rest. But actually, in fact, we have blind spots to ourselves. We have unknown unknowns about ourselves. And experimenting is useful there too. Yes, for sure.

I think that's, I mean, that deep check in with ourselves is potentially why, when we ignore that, it's why we're seeking approval and validation from outside because we've not really since checked the idea, the experience with ourselves. And I've often found the other way around that I've been so sure about my decisions and pretty much everyone in the room is saying no, but I'm still going to do it

because I feel so sure. And I've always felt that that internal surety and assurance and confidence has actually made me feel stronger than even when everyone else agrees. And it wasn't for the same reason as you said earlier. For me, when I'm in a room whenever I'm in a grise, it feels uncomfortable if I am not sure. And I think often we're trying to make other people's assurances make up for our lack of assurance. But that actually never works, and it never feels right,

whereas it's the other way around, your assurances can make up for everyone's lack of assurance and push the idea through. I see you nodding and laughing, so I feel like, okay, I'm understanding. I'm getting this right. Chapter four read was the one that I am most in love with. And it's because it's where I am at in my journey in terms of culture for my company, culture for my teams. You know, we've been fast growing for the last few years across my different ventures and different organizations. We have probably around 50 people now. It's not always people that I meet and see all the time. There's people working

internationally. There's people across working across time zones and in different areas of our company where I have chief operating officers and other individuals who manage them more on a day today basis. And as someone who is also, quote unquote, using industry language, not seeing myself this way, talent and CEO, it's an interesting position to be in, and it's something that I realized that I spent a lot of years trying to choose and figure out which one, and I only just feel this year,

I've kind of figured out how I want to balance the two. And so when your chapter 4 is dedicated to what you call the never-ending ending project, which is culture, and I believe I'm on a culture 2.0 for my work and what I'm trying to create. And you talk a lot about how your first employees in the company are important. And you say if your company is dominated by one type of person, your collective blind spots will add up to tunnel vision. And which I thought was fascinating. But the part of culture that I find most interesting is being able to sustain continually inspire and create a culture that people also want to be a part of.

Now recruitment, retention and reward are all part of that puzzle. Let's go through each of them. Let's start with recruitment. What has been your favorite way of knowing you've made a good higher? What has been your favorite method approach tactic to hiring that is deeply helped all one that you've seen through the podcast that you've been blown away by? I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet we're constantly discovering new secrets. The depths of them, the variety of them

continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share 10 incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. When I realized this is not just happening to me, this is who and what I am. I needed her to help me.

Something was gnawing at me that I couldn't put my finger on, that I just felt somehow that there was a piece missing. Why not restart? Look at all the things that were going wrong. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to season 8 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our 20s are saying is this golden decade.

Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week, we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the psychology

behind our experiences, incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life. Join me as we explore what our 20s are really all about, from the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our 20s. The psychology of your 20s, hosted by me, Gemma Speg, now streaming on the iHotRadio app, Apple podcasts, or whatever, you get your podcasts. I'm Munga Shatekater, and to be honest,

I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention, because maybe there is magic in the stars if you're willing to look

for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, major league baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop. But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world can crash down. Situation doesn't look good, there is risk too far.

And my whole view on astrology? It changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I think one of the really key things to do well is to not make hiring a solo journey for you as founder, CEO, or for any manager or executive. But rather make both the hiring decision at least moderately a group journey,

not just because of buying and group on all the rest, but even if you're like, look, I'm hiring a new VP of people, it's the beginning of an organization, and that will report to the CEO, but I wouldn't just do it as only the CEO. So that's one part of the hiring, but then the next part gets really critical, which is make a group responsible for the onboarding. So that part of how a person comes up to speed quickly on the culture begins that ad to it is not just the discussions that you have during the interviewing and reference checking and other kinds of things of the process,

but also during the initial parts of work. Because if you have that, then you have the whole, or you know, a proxy of the organization reaching out and helping with that onboarding. And then that gets the detail of your question because how do you know that you've made a magnificent hire is when, call it the three people or five people that you've made jointly responsible

for the onboarding, I'll come back and say, oh, this new person, she's great. Oh, this new person, you know, he's really interesting and he's, you know, doing well. And so because then you can say, ah, I've got a lot of different touch points. And by the way, of course, one of the things is you get three of them or two of them saying, hey, great. And the other two going, I don't know. You go, okay, well, what's the, I don't know.

Do I need to make it a just, but that's not necessarily an adjustment of the person should meet with the organization. But you want, do I need to make it a just, but that's not necessarily an adjustment of the person should me over the organization. But you want to do all of the stuff early, right? Because you usually when you have this magnificent partnering between new employees and the organization they're working, it starts on a very strong foot. It's, it's where that starts on a week foot and then converts. where that starts on a weak foot and then converts. So you want as much of that initial strength as possible and you need the organization to kind of collectively work at it.

And then by the way, ultimately make a decision. Because like, if you're 60 days in and you're like, this is a mistake, then you want to fix the mistake as quickly, but also as humanly as possible. Yes. Yeah. I really appreciate that advice. I think that's the mistake I made

first time around. The whole recruitment approach was one person led. It was very, very difficult to figure it out. And you're so right that as soon as we switch to a more group-based system, that in effect. And it's hard in the beginning because sometimes there isn't that bigger group. that in effect. And it's hard in the beginning because sometimes there isn't that big a group in the beginning. It is just you. And so you're kind of relying on yourself. But I like the idea of including people, even if they're not full time, even if they're people that work with you freelance or part time that you trust and love, you may even have someone involved that you value in your personal life as part of the interview process. I think that we think of that as weird or awkward,

but it's not at all because there may be someone in your personal life who you believe really understands you and knows you that could help with that process. So I think that's such a great way of thinking about it in such a simple way of solving the problem. Let's move on to retention, keeping that culture, growing that culture, preserving it, expanding it.

What are certain cultural principles? Every company has their own culture and everyone has their own deck and everyone puts their own words on the wall. What is some that you think are underlying all good company culture? Are there some key pillars, key themes that you believe are just integral

to any successful company that kind of go beyond industry boundaries and backgrounds. Well, I think there's patterns that you want in every culture. It doesn't necessarily mean they're in stanchion the same way. So it's kind of the question of, like what is excellence look like here?

We always search excellence, but what is excellence for us? Like a culture should always be seeking excellence, but specific, not, we use seek excellence, but what is excellence for us? Like a culture should always be seeking excellence, but specific, not, we use seek excellence, but like our excellence is this sort. Like we are thoughtful, we are multi-stakeholder-inclusive. It's like what are the top priorities in terms of what you're doing? Another one is this is how we define our team play.

This is the kind of way that we hold each other accountable. Part of defining a culture is, for example, where should every employee be able to hold the founder or the CEO accountable? What should they hold that person accountable for? Like, what's the way that we are running in that? And I think that's part of what the pattern of that is. So are we,

we remove fast or we are take intelligent risks or we are act like owners, you know, all of these things could be very good cultural elements, but which one particularly define us. And even though there might be a list of 20 virtues, part of culture is like, well, these are the ones we most focus on. These are the ones we most hold each other accountable to. These are the ones that, like, when we're cross-checking, how we're evolving, how we're playing the game, how we're getting the scale, that cross-checking is still the thing that, with each other, that drives us forward. And you want to set that from the very earliest days, it grows, it can change.

The mistake that people frequently have about thing about culture is they think like a culture deck. They think it's like, you know, the 10 commandments, you know, it's like it comes written in stone and you're like, no, no, culture evolves. And so you wanna have the right organism, the right set of people who are adding to it, who when you bring in a new person,

they're part of that organism too, also adding to it, and also helping it adapt and change and expand with a foundation, but still organic and developing. Yes, yes, one of the ones that I think worked like that for me was as an entrepreneur, one of your values naturally is risk taking. It's expression, it's failing, it's figuring it out. And I realized that actually for my team, one of their biggest values was the exact opposite. And it was

safety. And I started to realize how important safety was to team members. And to me, that blows my mind because I was just like, I've never looked for safety in my life anywhere. And it's so easy to get caught up in building a culture that is only for you, but not everyone can work that way. And I started to recognize how certain things we did, even though we didn't do it to have this impact, it would be seen as unsafe to someone, even though it was never from that mindset.

The mindset was always growth and building and doing more amazing things, but how not bringing people on that journey made them feel unsafe. And so that one for me was a huge one that I had to realize that this idea of being proactive and risk-driven and all this actually had to be completely reverse engineered

into a feeling of just safety and support, which was new to me. And by the way, the nuance, of course, which I'm certain was part of your journey is, which parts of safety, which were the fundamental, it's not safety on everything, safety and everywhere, it's which were the key parts that are part of this organization, this set of team play,

and that's part of organic cultural evolution. Yes, yes, no, And that's why, yeah, I think that that nuance is, is so clear that we live at a time where everyone's like, well, should I make a company that's risky or that's this? And it's so much more about embracing polarities than it is about choosing one or the other blankly because that doesn't, that doesn't work either. So no, I love that distinction and so important. Chapter seven that I want to dive in and I'm mixing and skipping now is,

watch what they do, not what they say. And in terms of looking at the customer and I find that this is something that some people have an innate ability to spot patterns and notice how people are interacting. And sometimes I feel like my mind works like an algorithm and I feel like my mind's like just connecting dots and stuff. But at the same time, what are some of the most practical ways you've seen companies really

listen, learn and watch their customers or people before they become customers? What have been some of the most masterful ways that companies have actually made systematized that? Well, there's a whole set and it goes from, obviously, consumer internet, which tends to be the software telemetry in terms of what's going on, to even physical hardware. Like, for example, watching on,

like one of the things, the earliest things that's taught in design school from decades ago was watch the unboxing experience. Because while people, you might say, what did you most love? What did you most hate? The person may not realize that the thing that caused them to start on the wrong foot

was like, for example, a weird unboxing experience. And so the general truth of the matter is, you always wanna spend a little bit of time kind of observing a kind of unguided and unforced interaction with the product or service that you're trying to do. And sometimes you need a lot of time, sometimes you need a lot of people doing that,

but you wanna get some sense of it. Because if you don't have that sense, and some people of course are just totally natural at that intuition, this is among the, you know, the brilliance of the Steve Jobs and so forth. But if you don't get that sense, then you could make some very fundamental bad assumptions, bad judgments. And too often, very, very few of us should totally prioritize, you know, I am genius, I know the product. It's always like, you know, be learning.

Be learning from other people, be learning from watching. And, you know, like for example, one of the things that I think people are under appreciate in the kind of the Steve Jobs canon is how much that every time he kind of found an interesting new product, even one that he thought was completely bonkers, he would invite the founder by for lunch or for breakfast

or for coffee and talk to them because a way of learning, as a way of doing that. And I think that is a similar kind of tactile nature of that. And so I think that's the thing is to try to get some observation and some engagement there, is I think critical for every entrepreneur. Wow, and that's the side of Steve Jobs that's often not talked about, or not often shared. And it's really fascinating.

For me, Steve Jobs has been such an inspiration in so many ways by studying his life and studying decisions, choices, his spiritual background. You know, there is such a fascinating individual. And I think, again, when we look at entrepreneurs and we study entrepreneurs, it's so important to not start putting them in boxes and then trying to choose which personality type we are. Because people are so much more complex and multi-layered and textured. Like each interesting entrepreneurial journey is somewhat sui-generous. So while there are archetypes that you should pay attention to, whether it's Jungian or

anything else, the notion of what you're doing is you're creating something new. And by the way, that you don't want to invent everything across the whole spectrum. You want to focus set of new things, usually the product or service, sometimes in the way you go to markets, sometimes in the way you organize. But one mistake that's kind of entertaining that entrepreneurs make is they invent new on everything. And actually, in fact, it is so e-generous, it is unique, and then a specific subset of inventions are what's key. I love that. That's such an interesting and new way of thinking about it as well that I I don't think that You know, we've all fully considered read we've got a few more moments left for you

I've got a ton more questions for you, but I'm gonna I'm gonna be I'm gonna narrow some of them down. I wanted to ask you before we dive into what we call the final five on on purpose Which is our fast five? I wanted to ask you We were speaking earlier before we came live and we were talking about purpose and you were talking about how masters of scale is like philanthropic, it's service based, it's extension, right?

Tell how important, at what point is purpose important? Is it important from the beginning? Does it usually evolve later for entrepreneurs? Where does it fit into the puzzle of joy, happiness, success? And where have you seen it been most beautifully incorporated? Frequently entrepreneurs can make a mistake here because they go, look, there's this market opportunity, this technology enables this.

I see this competitive space opening up. I see that I could now do this with this new technology, I could offer this product that's now based on the cloud or based on AI or based on mobile. And that's all very, by the way, very important. It's super relevant to the successfully entrepreneurial journey. But these entrepreneurial journeys, their team sports, they're not individual sports.

And it's part of the team sport. And part of the reason why, like whenever you look at any team organization, sports teams, your military teams, or other things, is that a spree decor that we're in this together and that it matters that we're in this and that we have pride that we're in this, pride with each other, pride with our families, pride with the society. And that is all part of having a purpose,

part of having a mission. And so defining that, like, what is the world that we are seeking to make better? And by the way, it doesn't have, like, obviously the people trying to cure cancer, it's super important, but there's lots of aspects to making society better. This is how we are doing that.

This is why the thing that we're adding in is so important. And so I think that that's important from the very earliest seedling of the idea within all of these projects, but especially the entrepreneurial where you're trying to build these institutions that help transform society at scale. And so I think it's one of the things to start with on day zero. That's brilliant. I love hearing that. That's music to my ears, of course. I'm the on-purpose community because I really believe that it's always there from the birth of the idea and the purpose is what keeps you going and keeps you persevering. It keeps you through all those crazy late nights and early mornings and lack of sleep and the breakdown like the only thing that keeps you going is your purpose.

Whatever that may be. So, I love hearing that. Now, Reed, I want to ask you the final five. These are the fast five where you have to answer the questions in one word or one sentence maximum. So you have one sentence. Please feel free to play with that. Reed, these are your fast five. Are you ready?

Hope so. Awesome. I love it. So the first question I have for you is, what is the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever received? Make decisions quickly and recover when you need to. Nice. Okay, great answer. What is the worst entrepreneurship advice you've ever received or given? Persevere against all odds. Ooh, and the answer is because you need to learn, right? So it is the only perseverance, it's also adaptation. Yes, absolutely pivoting, learning, adapting,

regenerating completely, if that's what it takes. Okay, third question. What is something that you once valued that you no longer value? Crazy hard work. And what I mean by that was, it's kind of a youthful thing, which is when you're 18, you're like, ah, you should pull on all night, or you should show that you could do it by pulling three all nighters. And now I'm definitely of the working smart,

you have to work hard on all these journeys. But working smart is the important governor on working hard. I love that. Great. Question number four, what's a daily habit that you don't negotiate with, that you always do no matter what? Adequate sleep. How many hours do you sleep? Minimum six with the occasional frequently weekends go to eight. Try to have one or two nights usually of mornings usually on the weekends where you don't send an alarm and you wake up when your body is like, okay, I'm ready. Part of this is because we go through life, we make decisions all the time, we make multiple decisions all the day and if you're making bad decisions, you're going to err.

And so you have to be cognitively in the right place, which of course is also mindfulness and purpose. But sleep is the baseline. I love that. That's such a great one. Such an important habit and underestimated. As a monk, I didn't sleep very much. But today I sleep is one of my biggest values too.

I couldn't agree more. All right. Fifth and final question, Reed, is if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Listen first, then speak. Very, very great advice and would be an amazing law. Read a half from everyone. The book is called Masters of Scale. Same name as the podcast., surprising truths from the world's most successful entrepreneurs. You can go out and grab it right now. You will not regret it. You may want to get it for a friend and family member too. Read again, it has been such a joy talking to you.

And even through this screen, I feel your friendliness, I feel your kindness, I feel your graciousness. It's truly special. It's truly special. It's truly special. I've had this experience. And actually the other time I had it this week was actually with someone in person. But with you, I'm feeling it through the screen,

which is really special. So I want to thank you for being so present, for being so conscious for our community and our audience today. You've really served them beautifully with your experience, wisdom insight. I really, really hope everyone goes and grabs a copy. I can't wait for people to read it.

And I really, again, hope to see you in person very soon. So yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. If any of you have been listening or watching, make sure that you tweet, Instagram, tag me and read because we'd love to see, what are the nuggets of wisdom that you're going to apply? What's the thing that you're practicing, experimenting with, exploring, I love being able to see what

you're taking away from these episodes because they help me understand which questions to ask, what to improve, what to make better. So please, please, please tag me and read. And again, thank you so much for listening to On Purpose and read. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life including all those tender invisible things we don't usually talk about? I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay.

Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by stellar guests like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes, each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app,

or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, it's Debbie Brown. host of the Deeply Well podcast, where we hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your wellbeing journey. Deeply well is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well with Debbie Brown is available now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Namaste. The one you feed explores how to build a fulfilling life admits the challenges we face. We share manageable steps to living with more joy and less fear through guidance on emotional resilience, transformational habits, and personal growth. I'm your host, Eric Zimmer, and I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts.