On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Robert Waldinger ON: Why We Struggle to Connect & How to Stop Toxic Habits from Breaking Our Spirit

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon.Today, I am talking to Robert Waldinger, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, and co-founder of the Lifespan Research Foundation. Dr. Waldinger received his AB from Harvard College and his MD from Harvard Medical School. Dr. Waldinger is a practicing psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, and he directs a psychotherapy teaching program for Harvard psychiatry residents. He's also a zen master and teaches meditation in New England and around the world. And he is the co-author of the book, The Good Life: Lessons From the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness.Robert shares his expertise on adult happiness. We go back and forth with our thoughts on the effects of chronically stressful relationships on our physical body as well as our mental and emotional health, why we should stop minding what people think about us and instead start checking in with ourselves, and the pros and cons of engaging in personal development and being open to changes.     What We Discuss:00:00:00 Intro00:03:23 The pros and cons of remote conversations00:05:16 This 75-Year Harvard Study00:13:10 The three flavors of happiness00:17:45 Turn to activities that are enlivening00:20:18 We’re not trained to look inward00:26:23 Take note of the things that are evolving 00:35:32 When you’re living with people that causes you stress 00:40:14 Active re-imagining of life from a different time00:47:03 Chronically stressful relationships break down the body00:53:30 Looking at the long view when dealing with relationships01:01:00 Socio-emotional learning 01:02:57 How do we keep our relationships in shape?01:06:02 Security of attachment for introverts and extroverts Episode ResourcesRobert Waldinger | WebsiteRobert Waldinger | FacebookRobert Waldinger | TwitterRobert Waldinger | LinkedInWant to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When my daughter ran off to hop trains, I was terrified I'd never see her again, so I followed her into the train yard. This is what it sounds like inside the box-top. And into the city of the rails, there I found a surprising world, so brutal and beautiful that it changed me. But the rails do that to everyone. There is another world out there, and if you want to play with the devil, you're going to find them there in the rail yard. Undenail Morton, come with me to find out what waits for us and the city of the rails. Listen to City of the Rails on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your

podcasts. Or, cityoftherails.com. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Nunehm. I'm a journalist, a wanderer, and a bit of a bond-vivant, but mostly a human just trying to figure out what it's all about. And not lost is my new podcast about all those things. It's a travel show where each week I go with a friend to a new place and to really understand it, I try to get invited to a local's house for dinner, where kind of trying to get invited

to a dinner party, it doesn't always work out. Ooh, I have to get invited to a local's house for dinner, where kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party, it doesn't always work out. Ooh, I have to get back to you. Listen to not lost on the I Heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care. When we asked participants in our study, you're 80 years old now. When you look back on your life,

what do you regret the most? More than anything, many of them said, I wish I hadn't spent so much time worrying about what other people thought. So then the question is, well, what could we do to change that? And is simply to check in more with myself about, what are the things that raise my energy?

What are the things that raise my energy? Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now I know that you are here because you want to improve your happiness, you want to improve your health and you want to improve your healing. And there are certain guests that I always love having on the show that I have on multiple

times. And today's guest, this is their second appearance. And I could have been more happy to speak to them because they also have a new book that I have been eagerly waiting for since I met them. I'm talking about the special Robert Waldinger, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, director of the Harvard study of adult development, and co-founder of the Lifespan Research Foundation. Dr. Waldinger received his AB from Harvard College and his MD from Harvard Medical School. Dr. Waldinger is a practicing psychiatrist and psychoanalyst and he directs a psychotherapy

teaching program for Harvard Psychiatry Residence. He's also a Zen Master and teaches meditation in New England and around the world. And Robert is the co-author of the book, The Good Life Lessons From the World's Longest Science Stiffic Study of Happiness. This is the book that I want you to go and order. The Good Life Lessons From the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness. If you've ever heard me talk about the 75-year study of happiness, If you've ever read that article, it's quoted absolutely everywhere. This is the man who completed that 75-year study. I believe the fourth of the researchers involved in that program. I couldn't recommend this book more Dr. Robert

Waldinger or Bob. And I met in Montana courtesy of Arthur Blank, who brought us all together at his beautiful ranch in Montana, introduced us to probably some of the most amazing people in the world in this space. We instantly connected A because I geek out on research and science, but more importantly, because we both have this meditation and mindfulness practice that we both deeply love. And beyond that, we just had a natural flying conversation. So Bob, thank you for coming back. both deeply love and beyond that, we just had a natural flying conversation. So Bob, thank you for coming back.

Thank you for flying in from Boston to New York to do this interview. It's so good to see you again. Well, it's a treat to get to see you again. That's the big incentive for me to get on a plane and come here. Just take it to see you. No, but I appreciate it.

I want my community appreciates it. I was just saying to you earlier that we made this rule for on purpose again, where we only wanted interviews to be physical, because I miss this, like I miss looking at someone I miss, being able to hug someone I miss, being able to have even the before and after, when you do a zoom interview, you lose the before and afterwards,

you're there for the interview, and you, whereas we've been talking for the last half an hour already. And so I wanted to hear from you because you said something interesting to me, you said, you know, I'm sure someone's studying it, you're not studying it. Yeah, let's think about that a little bit. What do you think is gained or what can be done meaningfully

through zoom or virtually, but then what is lost in your opinion and your thoughts and from your intuition on that? Yeah. Well, some of the most important things are about accessibility. Like, what we're finding is that people who can't be together physically, obviously, can be together online, or people who are frightened. So, you know, I'm a psychiatrist, and many people are really scared to talk to someone about their problems. Well, what if you could be in your own home and you could just dip a toe in the water by trying a video chat with someone who's a professional. And I've seen people do that with huge benefit. So, in that sense, the accessibility is wonderful.

That sounds great. And people in remote areas and all of that, what's lost, I think, are just what you've been describing. This, the casual interactions that we have and that we love, that we take for granted. I mean, it's a reason why people talk about the water cooler at the workplace or the coffee machine. It's where people run into each other and they have these little conversations that might turn out to be hugely important. Might turn out to spread ideas or give people a glimpse

of a person they find interesting who they've never met before. And so those are the things I'm afraid that we're losing remotely. Yeah, I think that's a brilliant answer. And I love the perspective that there's actually a positive and a challenge to every situation in life. And if we lean into the positives,

it can be more meaningful, it can be more powerful and instead of obsessing on the negatives. But let's talk about the 75-year study. If anyone who doesn't know about this study, could you just give us a quick synthesis or synopsis of what you are looking at, the types of things that you are assessing, the types of behaviors, and then of course, the more scientific result that you gained from the types of behaviors, and then of course the more scientific result that you gained from doing that study. So what's wonderful for me about this study is that it has followed the same people

for their entire adult lives. That's completely unheard of in the history of science. It just doesn't happen. So we started with people who were teenagers and followed them for now. We're about to enter our 85th year. We've followed people for 85 years. Most of the original people have passed away, as you can imagine. Of course. But we've started studying their children who are all baby boomers. And what's unique about it is to be able to see how lives really unfold. Not how we remember them because if you think about it, when we try to

remember what happened to us, there are big holes in our memories. And we get creative about, you know, I'll make up stuff and then like my wife will correct me and say no, it didn't happen that way. And she's always right. And so I think to be able to follow lives forward and not know what the outcome is going to be is just amazing. So that's the big picture. We started, it started in 1938 with two studies that didn't even know about each other. A group of Harvard College undergraduate students who were chosen by their deans as fine-up standing young men. And in a study of how people were going to develop from adolescence to young adulthood, they thought maybe the study would go for 10 years.

They never dreamed I'd be talking to you today about the study still going 85 years later. The other was a study of boys from Boston's poorest and most troubled families in the 1930s. Because a group of researchers were interested in why some children from really difficult backgrounds stayed out of trouble. How did they stay on healthy developmental paths? And so we studied a group of young men who hadn't gotten into trouble, even though their families were plagued by poverty and illness and crime and all kinds of difficulty.

So those two we've studied together, two ends of the spectrum, and now fortunately we've added women. We started out with all white males because that's what the city of Boston had in 1938 for research to study. And fortunately more than half women, more people from different backgrounds, lots of immigrants. So we're very excited about this kind of diverse sample that we've grown into. Tell us a bit about the findings over the 75 years, now obviously 85, but tell us a bit about that cool finding, because I think the most common finding that stated is that in this Harvard 75 years study, that when you look at the indicators of human happiness, the quality of our relationships was seen

as the number one indicator. Was there a number two? Was there a number three? Or was it just so far out? Like tell us a bit about the findings, and then we'll dive into the number one finding. Right. Well, the biggest findings were about relationships, but also about taking care of our health,

taking care of our bodies. One of our study members said, take care of your body as though you're going to need it for 100 years. And so what we do find, and many other studies find, is that getting regular exercise, eating well, getting decent sleep, getting regular medical care, if you can, all of those things, not smoking, not using alcohol or drugs, not abusing at least, that all of those turn out to have huge effects on how long we live, how healthy we stay. But the surprising thing was what you named, which is this finding that the people who stayed

healthiest and lived longest had the best and the warmest connections with other human beings. When we started seeing that in our data, we didn't believe it. Because we thought, well, how, you know, okay, I mean, if I have nice relationships, it'll keep me happier. Sure. But how could it actually keep me from getting arthritis or type two diabetes? Or how could that be? And so we and other researchers have found over and over again that this is the case, and that it seems to have something to do with stress, and that relationships help us manage

stress and help us manage powerful negative feelings. One of the things we all know is that all of us have stress every day, right? And sometimes really bad things happen during the day. We come home and we're upset. What we find is that if you have someone who you can talk to, at home or someone you can call up, who's a good listener, who's a sympathetic listener, you can literally feel your body calm down. And what that means is, you can literally feel your body physiology and chemistry come back to normal.

And that's the main thing that we think relationships do for us. Undisturbed, so you're actually saying that not only do positive relationships help us monitor stress and maybe regulate stress, but challenging relationships can actually cause health issues too. The opposite is also true. Very conflicting, conflictual relationships. So, challenging can be good, right? And that actually doesn't break down our health, but relationships where there's abuse, relationship where there's constant unhappy arguing and relationships where difficulties never get resolved. Those take a toll. Because they keep us in what we call fight or flight response. You know, the fight or flight response is our natural response. Where if you get scared, your body prepares to run away or to fight or meet with a challenge,

that's meant to be temporary. We're meant to come back to baseline, to equanimity. If we can't do that, then we're in trouble. There's one thing I love about this book is that it's practical, it's scientific, it's thoughtful, it helps scientific, it's thoughtful, it helps us come back to our essence. It's also simple in the sense that it kind of kindly nudges us and reminds us to go back to what we already know, but that we keep neglecting. And there's this

one study that you quote in the book and you, in a 2000 survey, millennials were asked about their most important life goals. 76% said that becoming rich was their number one goal. 50% said a major goal was to become famous. Now that's in 2007, and I think if that study was done now, those things would still hold true to a greater degree. And then you say, more than a decade later after millennial spent more time as adults Similar questions were asked again in a pair of surveys fame was now lower on the list But the top goals included things like making money having a successful career and becoming debt free

How do we when we talk about the good life, which is such a elusive topic for so long, you know, I feel like we've been studying the good life through culture, through spirituality, through philosophy, for thousands of years. But the amount of advancement we've made in that Pursuit is very literal compared to going to the moon or going to space or even health care for that matter. I think even health care from a physical health perspective has had so much acceleration but our understanding of the mind and the heart still seems to be fairly limited. And when you see those goals you see

okay that's what people are aspiring for. What is someone who's living the good life aspiring for? Because I think we often think of a good life as these habits, but what is a good aspiration? If the aspiration is not money, not fame, not a successful career, well the aspiration can be different for different people. So they've done research on this. And they have these different types of well-being. There's one called hedonic well-being, which is what we all think of as just enjoying a good party, a good meal, having a good conversation. I'm really enjoying this conversation right now.

I'm having hedonic well-being, right? But other people, well, all of us, to some extent, want also a sense of purpose and a sense of meaning. It's called you demonic well-being. The best example is you have a small child who you read to at night before bed. And you're reading the book Good Night Moon. And your child wants you to read that book

for the eighth time, and you are exhausted, right? Is it fun? No, but is it the most meaningful thing you could imagine doing? Absolutely. And so this sense of, I'm doing this because I love it, because I'm on purpose, because I care deeply about what I'm doing. That's a different kind of well-being.

And then there's a third kind that they've begun to identify, which is a psychologically rich life. So many of us value just having interesting experiences, going to new places, doing things we've never done before. So those three things, having a good time now, feeling like I'm doing meaningful activity, and feeling like I'm having interesting experiences, those are all flavors of happiness.

Right. And I think that each of us is a mix of all three, but some of us really want one more than the others. Is it meant to be balanced stories? Is there a hierarchy of needs there? What have we learned about those two? Well, there's officially, there's no right or wrong way, but what we know, and I think we know this from spiritual traditions more than my science, that

when we do invest in things outside of the self, we are happier. And we're happier for longer, and we feel more of a sense that life is worth living. So I would say that we need to be sure we have some of that, so we don't end up looking back and saying, gosh, I wasted my life. I feel like one of the most difficult things for a lot of people today is self awareness. In being aware of what we think is good for us, what we think is right for us.

I even had a friend say to me yesterday, they said to me, yeah, I think I'm actually gonna say no to that opportunity now, because I realized I was only going to say yes because of what people thought. And so you see that a lot, where so many of our choices and our decisions are based on what other people think is good for us,

or what other people think is right for us. I remember growing up and only wanting to aspire for things that other people rewarded. So if the most celebrated and respected person in my community growing up was an actuary for a career, I wanted to be an actuary at 10 years old. But if you asked me what an actuary did, I had zero idea. Exactly. And I think that this idea perpetuates, so what can we do to get closer to knowing what is good for us, so that we can truly live a good life?

Yes. Well, and I just want to emphasize what you said, because when we asked our original participants in our study, hundreds of them, we said, when you're 80 years old now, when you look back on your life, what do you regret the most? More than anything, many of them said, I wish I hadn't spent so much time worrying about what other people thought. And that's just what you're naming. So

then the question is, well, what could we do to change that? And I think what I've learned more and more in my own life is simply to check in more with myself about what are the things that raise my energy when I engage in them? And what are the things that lower my energy? So maybe like doing actuarial work, might lower your magic, could you imagine? Oh, I don't like this. That's right. So, and some people actually embark on courses of study and then realize, how did I get here?

I don't like this. And so I think one of the things we can do every day is simply to pay attention to that internal sense of being in live and or being depleted by activities that we're doing during our day and really pay attention to that and when you can turn toward the activities that are in live and eating. Yeah, I often say to people, it's like reflecting off to go to a restaurant. So what do you do when you leave a restaurant? You talk about the food, you talk about the ambiance, you talk about the service, you're like, oh, I really like that dish, but I didn't love that one.

And all the way to a so wonderful, he was so helpful. And I really like the design and the aesthetic of that space, right? So you talk about it. When you order in, you do the same thing. When you go to watch a movie or a TV show, you do the same thing. We go, oh yeah, that act is performance was amazing or that actress was incredible or that scene, you know, that was brilliant. Like, we analyze things, but I find that we don't analyze our lives in the same way. Like, when you go to a sports game, you could spend the whole day talking about it. Or if something happens to another couple in the media, or if something happens to a famous person in the media,

we will analyze it for days and weeks and months. But when it comes to our own lives, we rarely pay that attention. Has a psychiatrist? And why is that? Why is it that we can obsess over these external, big, or minute, like we either obsess over these external big or minute like we either obsess over these tiny experiences of food and movies and entertainment or we'll talk about other people's problems for hours and hours and hours but when it comes to our own we've really struggled to say you know the argument we had last week like let's just reflect on that for a second right right. Maybe it takes us back to the actuary problem,

which is that we are so trained from the time we're small to respond to rewards, to respond when people say, good girl, good boy, that was a good thing you did, right? And so we are trained to respond when people praise us. We're trained to respond when people praise us, we're trained to respond when people correct us and we're not trained to look inward. You have a deep meditative practice. You have done a considerable amount of training to look inward, to notice what arises in

the moment. I've spent a lot of my life on a meditation cushion as well, doing that. It's a radical practice, but you don't have to meditate to do this, right? We know you can be walking along the street. You can be looking at a beautiful tree and just start checking in with where you are and what's coming up for you, but we have to learn to do it. And that's the thing that I think we don't learn enough as we're growing up.

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What are some of the things that we should reward or not should, but what are some healthier things to reward in one another to create a healthy relationship? If we're trying to create these positive relationships in our life, what would be the things that we should encourage and reward and respect? I think we should reward people taking risks with us. If someone says to me, I was upset when you said that. My first reaction is to get defensive and say, well, I'm not going to accuse myself, but I've learned that sometimes what really helps is to say, well, I'm not, you know, to, to use myself, but I've learned that sometimes what really helps is to say, thank you for being willing to tell me that. Right? So if someone will take a risk

with me, I begin to say, oh, that's a gift. And when they do it, and when they take risks, and when I take risks, our relationship's deep in, you know, because if we trust each other and we realize we can trust each other, that you're not going to come back and criticize me, you're going to be curious and welcoming when I tell you about something difficult. So I would say, let's reward each other for going out on a limb, for taking risks with us. Let's reward each other for trying new things instead of just doing the same old. I mean, most of the time, when someone in our world

tries something new, we're like shocked, but that's not what I expect from you. And so it takes a minute to reorient and say, oh, that person is trying something different. That person is taking a risk, is challenging themselves. And so I would say, let's applaud that when we can. I mean, unless they're doing something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's applaud the things that where people are trying to grow. Yeah. Some of the things that other people do that trigger us, I feel, are so much because we are not allowing ourselves to do those things. Like I had a friend recently who's moving country and he was telling his friends out, some of our friends that he's moving country. And everyone just had negative things to say.

They're like, why would you move now? Like kids are too old. They're already in school. Like it's a tough time for them. Like it's going to go wrong. Are you going to come running back? And and we were talking about this. And it's exactly what you're saying that instead of rewarding that he's trying to do something finally after all these years years that's true to himself.

He's receiving a lot of this backlash from around him and it discourages him. It also, I think what people don't realize is that it not only discourages the person, it distances you from them. Because now you've not been a part of something that's significant to them in their life. I remember, you know, when I've moved

to country, I've moved state, and every time I've done that, when people have not been able to be a part of that decision with me, it makes me feel less understood by them if that's accurate. And I think this feeling of being understood is what you were speaking about earlier that we're all craving someone that you can pick up the phone to and have that meaningful connection with. How do we help people understand us better and how do we learn to understand other people better? Because if understanding, I mean,

when I look at relationships, I've realized that I think Jamie McGuire says that she says, love is an overused word. And I've often added to that that I think love is an underdefined word. And as I've been on my journey to really unpack what is love between people, I often come to words like, it's not even gratitude

or care, it really comes down to things like safety and understanding. When I think about love, I'm like, yes, safety and understanding, if someone feels safe around someone, that's a sense of love. And I mean emotionally safe, physically safe, mentally safe, and then if I feel understood by someone where I don't have to explain, like you didn't really have to explain to me that you were talking about what kind of thing someone would be doing as a risk,

because I understand you and I think there's safety in the understanding. So how can we understand people better and how do we help people understand Aspetta? One of my meditation teachers gave me an instruction just to try as I meditated. And he said, especially when you're sitting there and you've done this meditation a thousand times or you're washing the dishes for the three thousandth time, right? When you're doing something ordinary, he said, ask yourself the question, what's

here now that I have never noticed before? And what I find with relationships, particularly the relationships with people we think we know so well, right? Our partners or the old friend or my boss is to ask that question. What's here that I've never noticed before? And then to share it, you know, I never realized that you enjoy this or, you know, I love those sneakers and I, you must have taken some care to take them, you know, anything. But just.

Never have to give dreams to me actually. Yeah, they know, anything. But just... They're above take, if greasy and easily. Yeah, they're very cool. But just to notice, right? And so what I think what I'm getting to is curiosity, to let ourselves be genuinely curious about people, including the people we think we know so well. They've actually done a study of this where they looked at how tuned in we are to each other when we first start dating someone and then after we've

been together as a couple for four or five years. And what they find is that when we first start dating, we are much more tuned in to each other than we are when we've been together for so many years. Because we think we know. Right? are when we've been together for so many years, because we think we know. Right? Whereas when we're dating, we're like, oh, what's this going to be like? And is this person into me? And so we, or when we make a new friend, and so I think really the question is, couldn't we muster that interest and that curiosity even when we've been together a while, we know this person.

That is such a great example. That's a brilliant study. I'd love to take more of a look at that because I think that's such a great example of exactly how that diminishing curiosity creates diminishing results in a relationship. And I call that concept in my reflection of it, new old and old new.

So when I meet someone new, I try to find out something old about them. That because we might have that in common. Maybe it's a city we lived in. Maybe it's a country that we both love. Maybe it's a cuisine. And like it's something that's inbuilt to us. And then when I have known someone for a long time

and I consider them an old friend, let me look for something new in them as you're saying. And so I call it new old, old new. And it's always been my way of thinking about it because you're so right, there is always something new. You can learn about anyone, even if you deeply think you know them. And I think that with my wife today we've been married for six years and together for ten,

so it's a long enough time of our entire life. And I feel like I learn new things about her every day. And I think what's as important as learning new things about my wife every day is unlearning misconceptions I've had about her from 10 years ago. So there are things that I was so sure about who my wife was a few years ago. And at the same time as I have to learn the new things,

I have to say, well, wait, I have to unpack that old idea I had about her. That's not why she thinks that way or lives that way. This is the reason currently that she lives that way I think we find a lot of it's challenging to feel that people are changing Yes, it's challenging to feel that we are changing and it's challenging to feel that people that we love are changing How do we think about

Allowing ourselves to change and people to, because that seems to be the hardest thing in marriage and friendship. Like, I love friends who say to me, like, Jay, you've changed. Now, I don't think that I think in my core values and how I construct my life, I think I'm actually pretty similar. I don't think I've changed that much.

My external life has changed for sure, obviously, since living as a monk and then after, and then where, how I live now. But I think I live with the same purpose and the same intention. But how do we allow people to change and allow ourselves to change? You know, that is actually the core of my spiritual practice. So, as you know, let's go that. If you don't mind, that's the core of Buddhism. Yeah. No, I want you to go wherever you want to go. The core of Buddhism is this, the truth, that everything is always in the process of changing. And that some things we can't see the rate of change because it's so slow and some things are changing

in an obvious way. But what Buddhism teaches me is that one of the great sources of suffering in my life is when I try to hold on to things that are changed. When I try to fix them, when I try to freeze them, and what you're describing, you know, with your wife, when you're describing with a friend of, I'm trying to keep you in the same category I had you in 10 years ago. Right. So important to really let yourself notice what is what's evolving, what's different, and same, same with ourselves. And that yes, maybe our core values stay the same, but even that, we express them differently. I mean, we talked with some of our study participants when they were in their 30s about how they were expressing, say, a desire to take care of their family. And of course, what they did in their 30s to take care of their families was very different

from what they did in their 80s. And so the values stay the same, but the behavior of the expression can change. And so all of these things can be sources of endless interest and curiosity. Yeah, and I think it comes with that expectation, right, that when you meet someone, you'll hope subconsciously, is that they're going to stay this way forever. It's almost like when you meet a two-year-old and they're just adorable and you're like, I hope this child just stays this way forever because you find them, you know, cute and fun and playful or whatever it may be and it's the same with our partners. When you meet your partner, you're like, oh, they're perfect the way they are.

Right. And that idea that someone is perfect right now is often the issue with progress because they are going to change. You're also going to realize how imperfect you both are. And I think letting go of that expectation is what's so difficult. It's almost like when you buy a phone or you buy a physical item, it may be perfect,

but you know it's gonna get knocked. It's gonna get dropped. It's gonna, you know, it may be perfect, but you know it's going to get knocked, it's going to get dropped, it's going to, you know, it's going to need an upgrade, it's going to, so we accept that to some degree, but with people, which are these dynamic, vibrant, energetic beings, we almost like, no, no, no, no, be technology, you know, it's, it's a weird mindset and I wonder how we can really learn to let go of that. It's a constant, I think it's a constant process, right? Because our minds do want to hold on to certain expectations, certain images. We would go crazy if everything were always up for grabs, right?

Like at least I knew roughly who I was going to find when I came to see you today. Thank goodness. But the other side of that is just what you're saying, that we need to keep looking and see, well, you know, I haven't seen you in three years and how are we each different? And that's a hard thing to keep doing. But just to remember, I think as you're pointing out, that we want things to stay the same. And so it's going to take some effort to pay attention to the changes that are happening

all the time. Yeah. I think one of the biggest relationships speaking about the good life and talking about relationships, I think as we know, through research, through studies, so much of our expectations as we were talking about our beliefs about love, about relationships come from our family. And often I find today that the amount of people that say to me that their family is toxic, or they experience

a really negative energy from their family, like I hear that over and over and over again. And I'm sure as a saying, I'm sure you hear it more and more and more. And I find like families that were meant to be people's places of refuge, of sacredness. Often people don't feel that way. Now I'm not saying that it's all the families for either. I think there's responsibility on both sides and it's a complex matter. But how does someone navigate? What should someone be thinking about if they have family members or a family member that causes them a great deal of stress, pressure and insecurity? Like how does someone navigate? What is someone be thinking about? What could someone ask?

How did they reflect on that? The therapy for Black Girls podcast is the destination for all things mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Here we have the conversations that help Black women dig a little deeper into the most impactful relationships in our lives, those with our parents, our partners, our children, our friends, and most importantly ourselves. We chat about things like what to do with a friendship in, how to know when it's time to break up with your therapist, and how to end the cycle of perfectionism. when it's time to break up with your therapist and how to end the cycle of perfectionism. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.

Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Take good care. I'm Yvonne Gloria. I'm Maite Gomes-Rajón. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast Hungry for History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Corner flower.

Both. Oh, you can't decide. I can't decide. I love both. You know, I'm a flower tortilla flower. Your team flower? I'm team flower. I need a shirt.

Team flower, team core. Join us as we explore surprising and lesser known corners of Latinx culinary history and traditions. I mean, these are these legends, right? Apparently, this guy Juan Mendes, he was making these tacos wrapped in these huge tortilla to keep it warm, and he was transporting them in a burro, hence the name, the burritos. Listen to Hungary for history with Ivalongoria and Maite Gomez Rejón as part of the Micoltura Podcast Network available on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon Rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh wow, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao, the tree that gives us chocolate, but this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen, or tasted. I've never wanted us to have a gun, but you saw the stacks of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms as vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate.

You're all lost. You're this magnum. It was a game changer. People quit their jobs. They left their lives behind, so they could search for more of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle, and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building

armed with machetes. And we've heard all sorts of things that, you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all this for a damn bar of chocolate. Listen to obsessions, wild chocolate, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Perhaps first to reflect on the positive, someone once told me, you know, no one will ever care about you as much as your family will care about your well-being. And I know there are exceptions to that, but basically, these are the people who are your people.

And so if there are ways to preserve those ties, it is worth it. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes people need to walk away from their families of origin. I totally get that. But to at least be sure that what's there to be invested in has been appreciated, right? But then often what gets families into trouble is just what we're talking about,

which is the problem of allowing each other to grow and change. I mean, I have a son who's in his thirties and who gets angry at me when I ask him, well, you know, do you need a warmer coat when you go out today? And he says, dad, I'm in my 30s. Why do I, you know, and I stop and I say, oh, you know, if you hadn't been so dependent on me when you were two years old,

if you hadn't trained me to worry about these things, we'd be fine. He's saying to be dead, recognize that I'm grown up, right? And often the difficulties we have in families are the difficulties of people not allowing each other to grow and change into who they are at this moment. I mean, what if your family had said, you have to be an actuary? And if not, you are a failure. So, yeah. So I think what you're saying is right,

that yes, many families are filled with this kind of strife. And often it comes from this difficulty recognizing that we are all changing and then allowing each other to change and grow. I find that a lot of generations today are obviously more open to therapy, more open to these types of reflection. I find that when I speak to some people that I know that they may find that certain older generations are like, well, what's the need for therapy? What's the need for that? older generations are like, well, what's the need for therapy? What's the need for that? Like, you know, everything's okay.

Like, we can figure this out. It's a family matter. Again, there's truth on both sides in different ways, right? But I guess, I think one of the biggest challenges is that a lot of people, it's like, when you're young, you always feel the adults don't get it. And when you're an adult, you feel like the kids don't get it, right? Like, that's like an, and the funny thing

is we all experience it. It's like, there's that famous quote, like the kids don't get it, right? Like that's like an ever, and the funny thing is, we all experience it. It's like, there's that famous quote, I don't know who said it, but it's the day you realize your parents were right, your kids will be telling you that you were wrong. Like I don't know who said it. Yeah, it's brilliant, yeah, it's so good. And I don't know who said it, but I always think about that. I'm like, oh, it was so interesting.

When I was young, I used to think this of, now I'm 35 years old, and I was like, oh, that's what I used to think of 35 or so. Someone with that opinion, now that I'm 35, I'm like, oh used to think this, I'm 35 years old, and I was like, oh, that's what I used to think of 35 years old. Someone with that opinion, now that I'm 35, I'm like, oh, I think this differently. How do we, it's like, I'm asking questions here that I know there aren't any conclusive answers to, but I think they're important questions to ask. It's like, how do we live a life where we've realized that from a different vantage point, you're going to have different beliefs and almost opening yourself up and not stereotyping an 18 year old or stereotyping a 21 year old,

or stereotyping a 60 year old or a 70 year old. I think we have stereotypes about like, oh, well, you know, and I'm like, well, wait a minute, when I was this age, you did the same thing. And we, you know, that kind of thing, like when I moved, it's like what you just said about the you did the same thing. And that kind of thing, like when I moved, it's like what you just said about your son and the coat. It's like my, when I moved country when I was 28. So I moved from the UK to the US when I was 28 years old. And my mom was so scared for me.

I was like, mom, you moved to London when you were 16. Like you left, she left like a country where there was a war in Yemen between the Yemeni and the British, and she left and moved to England during that time. And I'm like, you left a war-torn country, it's 16 years old. I left to follow my purpose and passion. At 28, you did something way harder, but you're so scared for me. And I know that that's love, of course.

I know that that's love, but it's interesting how, it's that you took the biggest risk and you kind of don't even want me to take this one. Right. Because it's hard to imagine, to reimagine ourselves at an earlier age in a way. Yeah, let's talk about that. I like you.

She was quite capable as she must have been as a 16 year old. And I'm sure it was incredibly hard and she managed. What, one of these, so we, in our lifespan research foundation, we developed this program that you were actually part of helping us imagine. Oh, I love this. In Montana, we call it road maps for life transitions where we have five sessions where we bring some of these insights from our research into small group sessions that people can really learn from and use. And the

first session, we asked people to bring a photograph of themselves when they were half as old as they are now. And then they go into small groups and they show each other their photograph and that the assignment is to tell each other, okay, what did life look like to you when you were the person in this photograph? And how has life changed? How has your view of life changed now? And it really underscores that difference between, well, this is what it was like when I was 16 and leaving Yemen, and this is what it was like when I was 16 and leaving Yemen, and this is what it's like for me now. And then she gets to think, oh, my 28-year-old son,

oh, I may have more of a sense now of what life is like for him, but it's a kind of active re-imagining of life at a different, from a different vantage point, from a different time. I love that example, and I remember that exact conversation we had because I talked about how like all my work is dedicated to helping people make life transitions. Because I think that's where all the pressure, the stress, like when you're just getting married

or you're just getting divorced, when you're starting a new job or leaving an old one, when you're moving country or moving home, like that's where, could you share more about that program and some of the insights in the book that what are other ways that people can reflect on life transitions in a healthy way? So we do a session where we ask people to clarify

their values, you know, as you ask people to think about all the time. And we ask, well, what are the two or three values that you couldn't imagine living your life without? And then we say, map out a typical week in your life and write down where you can express these values. And some people are really shocked that they're not able to bring their values

into much of their daily life. We do another session where we ask people to map their relationship universe and say, well, who are you close to? Who would you like to be closer to? Who have you had troubles with, but you'd like to mend a relationship? We do another one where we say, actually, it's the leaving Yemen. It's the, we ask, what are some of the biggest challenges, the biggest transitions you've had to make in your life so far? And what were the strengths that you were able to bring to managing those transitions?

And then we ask you, what do you see coming down the road? And how can you use those strengths that you already have to anticipate meeting this next challenge that's coming along for? I love that question because I think I do that subconsciously all the time whenever I'm going through a new challenge, I automatically reflect on an old one. Yeah, and think to myself,

how did I get through that when I got through that? Like I was telling you about every single and through surgery. So, thinking, when was the last one through surgery? I was like, okay, when I was six, I dislocated my wrist. I mean, I can barely remember it. All I remember is I was in the park, I was swinging on the monkey bars or whatever they called. I fell on the last one because I was going too fast and I fell on my wrist and I dislocated. I was in agony. Parents had to rush me to the hospital. I had to cost on my arm for like three to six months. Everyone was writing on it in school, but I got through that when I was six. Like, and I was like, well, maybe I healed faster at six. I was like, okay. And then when I was 25, 26,

I had polyps in my throat, which had to be lasered out, had to eat through a straw, I couldn't talk for six months, I practically lost the sound of my voice, the texture of my voice had changed. I'm now back to sounding how I used to before, if not, I'm a little bit deeper, which is great. But that was pretty tough because I was an adult already and going to that was challenging. And so I was like, okay, when I was going through this surgery, I was like, okay, I've got this. Like, I've done hard things before. And that gave me more strength, as opposed to like, I'm going to a new surgery. It's brand new.

I've never been through anything, you know? So I think that's a really, really great activity. And I love hearing about these practical exercises. Because I think that's what we need. We need to make things tangible and visual. And I think we need to remind ourselves of some of the things that we take for granted. Like, I didn't know what that surgery was gonna be like.

And I was, okay, I calm myself down. I went into it, I came out fine. You know, it's just kind of like, I did this, I did this. And we need to remind ourselves of the hard things we've already done. Yeah, and this time there was one thing that went the other way. So whenever anyone talks to me about anesthetic, right?

Or anesthesia whenever I have to do one of these surgeries, I've always had a positive experience with it because I'll pray and meditate a lot before a surgery naturally. And then when I come out, I find that those few seconds, I don't think we're talking about this, but the few seconds that I'm coming out of the effect of anesthesia, I have like really powerful spiritual

experiences, like some of my favorite spiritual experiences that'll happen in those moments. And this time the opposite happened, I actually came out of it with something called adelectasis, which is a partial collapse of the lung. And I actually came out of it with something called adelectasis, which is a partial collapse of the lung. And I couldn't breathe for like a week, and so I was like gasping for air, and it was so funny because I went into it so positive, hoping that I was going to have another amazingly

spiritual experience. And then when I came out the other side, I was just about alive. And yeah, it's, but I like that idea of, and I think I would love to ask that to my mom, actually, I would love to ask her to reflect on her strengths, because I don't think she's probably done that. I think she just sees it as that's what we had to do, or that was normal, or what else could we do.

They just see it as, they just see it as like, well, that was the natural journey of life and I'm like no it wasn't mom You could have just stayed where you were but you did something very brave and I Think reminding our parents of that and reflecting with our parents on that could be really powerful So I love I love those activities, right? I wanted to ask you going back a bit to the family piece What are the negative effects on our health when there's someone in our life? Could be family, could be our partner, could be a friend?

That's there, but they're causing continued issues or challenges, or I think there was this beautiful quote you had in here from John Steinbeck. You said, a sad soul can kill you quicker, far quicker than a germ. And I know that that can be, you know, sometimes it can be your own soul. But the idea that there's someone in your life

that's like, it's almost like if we were doing this interview and there was like a constant tapping, like a constant tapping, we could probably still get by because I'm focused. But there's an irritation, there's an agitation, there's some sort of distraction that's going on. I think sometimes people feel that in their life, that I'm trying to get on with my life,

but there's this like recurring thing, this person, this individual, what it, talk to me about what that does to our health, like how does that, what does that kind of impact us, or when does it impact us? Well, what we know is that sources of irritation are stressors. And so it has that long-term chronic effect on our bodies. We assume. I mean, I don't know that anyone's studied, you know, a tapping noise and what it does to us, although actually noise pollution is one of those cognitive load as well.

Absolutely. is one of those cognitive load as well. Cognitive load. So what we do know is that being in a chronically stressful relationship does break down the body. And that there have been a couple of studies that have shown, for example, with marriages that leaving a really acrimonious relationship is better for you than staying. Even though it's very painful to break up along to our partnership and all that. So I think that the question then becomes, how do we discern when a relationship should be worked on and when it's important to step away? should be worked on and when it's important to step away. And I think it's always a matter of wisdom, of bringing wisdom to this, to say,

how much do I have invested? If we have children, if we've built a life together, I'm gonna work really hard to make sure I don't throw that away until I find that there's just no saving it, and people do that. But on the other hand, sometimes there are friendships, there are relationships that are just chronically irritating, and they can be stepped away from.

And more nurturing relationships can be cultivated instead. So it really is a constant matter of discernment. But I will say that I don't wanna advocate just being done with a relationship because there are difficulties. Because there are conflicts in every relationship of any depth, right? There are gonna be disagreements.

Many of those disagreements can be worked out and working them out is a source of growth and can often strengthen the relationship. So it's important to try where you can to work out difficulties because the potential for benefit is huge. And I think that's the challenge, right? I think we don't have the tools to figure out difficult relationships. It's almost like no one ever went to that class. There wasn't that class at school. Your family has its own methodology of how to, like some families, every family has their own way of dealing with conflict, subconsciously or consciously.

So some people go, just put it under the rug, we forget about it, wely or consciously. So some people go just put it under the rug, we forget about it, we be civilized. Some people say, well, we fight it out and then we never talk again. Some people say, we pretend to be best friends, but then behind their back, we talk bad about them, right? Like, I think we all subconsciously have a family methodology of how we deal with other family members that we don't enjoy being with or we do enjoy being with. And so our tools are often scarred by how we were raised in previous experiences. Like, what are some healthy tools to actually address conflict and a relationship? Because I think that most of us when we're raised, we're raised to avoid conflict. We're raised to avoid having the uncomfortable conversation.

We're raised to like, well, don't go there. Or you put someone in their place, the extreme opposite. Or you tell them how it is. Now, neither of those things lead to better relationships. It was so funny. There was someone in my life yesterday that I wanted to send a very clear message to about something that I think I didn't appreciate about what they did for me. And it came actually because so many people were telling me. So it wasn't even my own thought.

I didn't even have that bitterness inside of me. I didn't even care. So in love with what I do. But then I had like three people in the same week point this thing out to me and say, did you see what this person did? Like, and I know them and they were like, you see what this person did? Like, I think you should tell them. Do you want me to tell them? I think you should tell them.

And so I was being egg-done. And whenever I'm egg-done by an idea that doesn't come from within my own intuition, I always have to check whether it's aligned with my intuition. And that's like a practice that I've had for a long time. It's like, is this idea mine? Or is this idea someone else's? Like, do I really believe this? Or am I being made to believe it because someone felt like starting a little fire? And I literally wrote out the text and then I

pressed delete and I said, this is not my idea. This is, I don't genuinely care. I'm going to let this go. not my idea. This is, I don't genuinely care. I'm going to let this go. Funny thing happened. That evening, I got a message yesterday. I got a message from this person. It wasn't about them apologizing for anything, but they came back with so many wonderful ideas. They were coming up with so much good energy. They were at it. They were somewhere and they were like, gee, I saw these things and I thought of you and I was like, wow. Like, you know, I was just about to send this message and this person's thinking about me off the run and call, they're not apologizing,

they don't think they've made a mistake but they're bringing good energy my way. And so the reason I'm showing that whole example is just, I think we don't have tools. One tool for me is always, is this how I genuinely feel? Yes. Or is this just how someone in my life feels about this person and I'm borrowing that emotion? What are other tools that we can use to

deal with conflict and issues better in our important relationships? Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, fall in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Spake, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences, incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life.

Join me as we explore what our twenties are really all about. From the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our twenties. The psychology of your twenties hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Now streaming on the iHot Radio app, Apple podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. I'm Mungeshia Tickler and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology. radio app, Apple podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. I'm Mungeshia Tickler and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life.

In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention because maybe there is magic in the stars if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, major league baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop! But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world can crash down. Situation doesn't look good.

There is risk too far. And my whole view on astrology? It changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. This is what it sounds like inside the box-top. I'm journalist and I'm Morton in my podcast,

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off the grid, and on the edge. I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom this community. No one understands who we truly are. The Rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, and the thing we call the American Dream. It's the last vestige of American freedom. Everything about it is extreme. You're either going to die, or you could have this incredible rebirth and really understand who you are.

Come with me to find out what waits for us in the city of the rails. Listen to city of the rails on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com. Well, first of all, I love what you just name because I think I have been egg-drawn by other people as well and then, and I always regret it.

And so taking that pause, doing it delete, it was really important. Another tool that I've found is so important for me, is to take a long view. So what do I want with this person in the long run? Right, six months from now, three years from now, what do I want? Do I not care if they're out of my life? And so it doesn't matter how I handle this now, or do I care?

Do I want to make sure that we're okay? Because this person brings energy into my life, because I care about this person, because it means that I will adjust my response, depending on the long game, if you will. What I really want out of this relationship. And so, and usually what that means for me is what you and I were talking about before we started this interview, which was, ideally, everybody needs to win, right? That there, ideally, there's no loser and no winner.

And so if I wanna make my point and score one, so what, and the other person ends up feeling bad or put down, it leaves us both disconnected and in a bad place. So, how then to create a scenario where we talk about something that's a problem? Because if I just suppress the problems, I'm going to grow more resentful. And that's going to be its own difficulty and separation. And so how do we talk about problems in a way that will allow us both to get to a place of feeling like we've won, we've gained something,

and ideally we're closer. And so usually for me, that means writing the angry email and then pressing delete and then sleeping on it, meditating on it. And one of my teachers once described as strike while the iron is cold. Yeah. Wait till the hot iron cools down.

That's great. And then think back, okay, now, how do I feel about this and how would I, what would be the most skillful way to talk to this person about it? And so those are some of the pointers that I have to keep using with myself when I all rolled up about something.

Yeah, is that kind of aligned with your idea of being reflective versus reflexive? Like, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I love that long term thinking. I think that is such a great question because what feels right right now might not feel right then.

Right. And I think that's how we often play it. We go, well, they need to understand this and they need to learn this and they need to know this. And it's like, yeah, they could maybe appreciate and digest that if you strike while the iron is cold. But when you strike while the iron is hot for a conversation like that, you actually end up completely alienating that person and pushing them away. I had a client the other day who called me and said, my boyfriend's about to come back in,

it was like, it was 9 p.m. and my boyfriend's about to come back from work in half an hour and I just found this information out about his previous relationships and I'm going to ask him. And I was just like, okay, well, first of all, who did you get the information from? And she said, oh, it was just someone that used to know him a few years ago. It's like, okay, that doesn't sound like great information. I said, second, what's he been doing today? She was like, oh, he's been at work,

he's been with this family, he had like a event, he's been preparing for a wedding, for a friend's wedding this weekend. I was like, do you think that was the right time to have that conversation? Like, he's had a long stressful day. Like, is this the right time? And I'm sure he'll be open to it, but does it mean it's ideal?

And they were like, no, I don't think so. And I was like, okay, so we got to know so far. And then I was like, do you, again, then there was the third question that I asked, like, do you even believe that this is true? Like, is this even your instinct from your contact with this person? They were like, no. And I was like, well, then you were just about to go and create another huge argument that didn't need to happen. And you could talk about it later on in another huge argument that didn't need to happen. You could talk about it later on in a better way. I think the long term is brilliant.

Another thing that came to my mind when we were talking about this was, there's a great book called Culture Code by Daniel Coil. He quotes Papa Vich, who I believe is a basketball coach, my very successful basketball coach, so is my basketball level of knowledge. And when he would give feedback to his players, he had a really fascinating way of giving feedback,

which would encourage them to grow. And then they looked at studies, and they found that when examiners gave their students feedback in this way, that the students performed better. And so this type of feedback had three key areas to it. The first, and I try and I really try and practice this in my life because I think that, not because it's a good technique, but because I actually believe it's true. So the first was that you make someone aware that you of your standards, that you

make someone aware like, this is the type of life I want to live. This is the type of company I want to build. This is the type of relationship I want to have. So when I'm talking to my wife, I often say to her, I'll say, you know, I want a relationship where we're both happy and joyful and supporting each other. That's the relationship I want to have. And it's like, no one can argue with that. And that's a long-term view, right? Like what you're saying, it's a long-term view of me saying, I want to have a healthy relationship.

That's the kind of relationship I want to be in. Do you want to be in that relationship too? And of course, right? Or like, I want to build a company with purpose that is impacting the world where people are happy to be at work every day, right? And so do we all want to be in that so that's one thing setting a standard The second thing is reminding the person that you're speaking to

That you trust and you believe that they can rise through that standard That I I know you want this to and I know you can be there. I know that you can actually I know that if you want that I know you can have that like I know that we can have that, I know you can have that. Like, I know that we can have that together. So it's not like a teacher, it's together. And then the third thing is saying, you know, what are we both willing to do to get there? Now that we know we want to be there, we trust we can both get there. What are we both willing to do to get there? And I think when you think about relationships that way, you go, wow, things could be solved. You know, if you had effective conversation and I often

say to people, use us and we, not you and me. You know, there's such a like, you versus me, whereas us and we brings us together. So I'm glad we went there because I just think that there are, I just think we've never learned these tools. And it upsets me because I agree with you that I think so many relationships are lost too early or they die early even if we live long in them. And that's even worse. You know, there's a whole movement to provide what's called socio-emotional learning for children, right?

Where they create, you know, curricula, they create classroom sessions where they talk about, this is what feelings are, this is what it's like when you have an argument with a friend. What are the ways you can deal with your argument with your friend? You know, how do you manage these different, difficult things in your life?

And what they find is that when they offer these programs to children, they do better in their academic subjects. They don't get into trouble as often in school. They don't get involved with alcohol and drugs as much. I mean, all these things that flow from these emotional skills and social skills that are being taught. And many times when they give teachers these programs to teach their children, the teachers will come back and say, we need this for us please. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Like, you think about so much of your work life is interpersonal skills as opposed to just functional things. And I often think if you get along with someone,

you can work with them and coach them and get it right. But if you don't get along with someone, it's very hard to put in the time to get it right. And I find that more and more and more, like I think for a long time, I worked with companies, or I worked in companies where people were hired for their proficiency or their skills, and they weren't hired for their attitude.

And you could tell how that affected company culture where if someone had the right attitude, they could learn the skill. But if someone had a poor attitude, no matter how skilled they were, it could be damaging to a work environment. Right. And when I was inside large organizations I could see that very clearly. You talk about in this book something called social fitness and keeping our relationships in shape. I was thinking what do we, how do we know, how do we become aware of this, first of all, the social fitness of a relationship or our social fitness. And how do we keep our

relationships in shape? Well, this concept sort of came out of our finding that many people felt that they weren't spending time with the people who were most important to them. And in fact, that was one of the big regrets when people looked back on their whole lives, they said, I wish I had spent more time with family and friends. And so I started thinking about it personally and because I can spend a lot of time working and I can spend a lot of time just on email, just to, you know, as we all can, right? There are just so many things we could do all day long. And I began to realize that unless I actively exercise those social muscles, and by that I mean if I actively keep in touch with my closest Zen buddy who lives across town, but I don't get to see enough, if I don't make the decision to call him up and say, let's go take a walk, let's go have a coffee. If I don't do that,

the path of least resistance for me is to stay home, is to do another piece of work on a Saturday afternoon. So what we're talking about is this idea of beginning to prioritize, nurture and keeping up relationships, rather than assuming that they'll take care of themselves. The idea being that, you know, I used to think, well, my best friends are my best friends and they'll always be that way. And my relationship with my partner is going to be fine because it's good now. It'll always stay fine. We know that's not true. That unless we really invest in having new experiences in long relationships, in reaching out and devoting some of our time to keeping those

relationships alive, it's not going to happen on its own. So rather the path of least resistance, unfortunately, can be social isolation and more screen time. And so we're talking about social fitness as a way to get people to think about it, like going to the gym. You don't go to the gym one day and say, good, I'm done. I've done that, right? You think, okay, I'm going to do that over and over again. And we would like people to think about their relationships the same way. Yeah. Talking about introverts and extroverts

and that I socialize a nation sense, it's like, I think we've also made this very clear as a society that with social animals, we need to be around people, et cetera. And then we meet people who are surrounded by people or appear to be very popular, but still feel alone. And then you meet people who are single and feel incomplete. And then you meet people who are happy and solitude

and they enjoy spending time with their own. Like, we're all different. We all need different things. But how do introverts find a sense of healthy social fitness? And how do extroverts also find a sense of healthy social fitness? And how do extroverts also find a sense of healthy social fitness? Because extroverts often appear very socially fit, but if you ask them, they may feel quite depleted. And introverts may, like you said, potentially rely on isolation

because they don't want to step out. So how can we think about that differently? Boy, it's such an important question. I mean, I think what we realize is that from our work, that everybody, whether you're an introvert who wants just a small number of people in your life or an extrovert who loves lots of people, that everybody needs a sense that somebody in the world

is there for them. That there's some emotional safety net. We asked our original study participants at one point, who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared? And some people couldn't list anyone. And some people could list quite a few people. What we know is that if you're an introvert, you might just need one person in the world like that, but you need somebody. And if you're an extrovert, you might have more people, but you might only need one person. The extrovert, who's lonely in a crowd, probably doesn't have that person. And that's what we're really. So I think this comes under the professional rubric of security, of attachment that everyone

needs to feel securely attached, securely connected to at least one other person. Kids need it, but we need it all the way through lives, all the way into old age. And so I think if if someone can find the way to make sure they have a nurture at least one of those relationships, the rest is probably much more easy to take care of. Absolutely. Everyone I've been talking to the one an early Robert Wo Robert Wardinger, the book is called The Good Life Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness. I hope you go and grab the book. As you can see, one thing I love about speaking with Bob is that he's great into weaving science

and spirituality. He has this amazing Zen background, but then also as a psychiatrist, I love meeting people who are at the juxtaposition of two seemingly opposite ideas, but actually two things that flow beautifully together. Bob, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really wanna share or something? That's on your heart or mind or in your intuition that you'd love to share with everyone.

I'd love to give you that opportunity. Okay, well, I'll just state something that's obvious, but might not be obvious all the time, which is that in this quest for happiness, for the good life, it's easy to imagine that it's possible to be happy all the time. Nobody on the planet is happy all the time. And the reason I have to say that

is because when we look around us, we see advertisements and social media where people are smiling and having it look like they've got life all figured out, nobody has life figured out all the time every day. And I just want to name that so that life is filled with joys and sorrows and ups and downs and that you are not having a bad life if there's a mixture of joy and sorrow and boring days and ordinary days in your life.

I love that reminder. I think that's such a beautiful thing for all of us to remember. There's your so-right, our external projection is that someone else has it all together. Whoever that may be, none of us, too. I love that. Thank you so much.

Everyone has been watching back at home or if you're traveling, if you're on the move, you're at work, wherever you are, listening and watching, please do tag us on Instagram, on Twitter, on TikTok. Let us know what you learned, what you took away when you grabbed the book. I want you to take pictures of the book. Tag me to let me know what line you've read, what moved you, because I would honestly say that the questions this conversation made me ask were deeply personal. You could see I was reflecting like these are the things we need to spend more time on and

these are the things that we need to focus more deeply on because these are the things that are so simple that we might just miss them, right? They're right there in front of us and so you might just ignore them. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for watching. A big thank you to Dr. Robert Wardinger as well. Bob, thank you for making the trip out. Always a pleasure. It's been an honor. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Charles DuHig on how to hack your brain, change any habit effilously, and the secret to making better decisions. The one you feed explores how to build a fulfilling life admits the challenges we face.

We share manageable steps to living with more joy and less fear through guidance on emotional resilience, transformational habits, and personal growth. I'm your host, Eric Zimmer, and I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Munga Shatkler and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe. You can find in Major League Baseball, International Banks, K-Pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me. And my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade.

Our time to be carefree, make mistakes and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.