On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Russ ON: How to Change Your Self-Critical Mindset & The Truth Behind the Emotional Struggles of Men

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Have you tirelessly pursued a dream, only to discover an underlying emptiness even after achieving it? Many have experienced this paradox of achieving a dream, yet still feeling unfulfilled. It's a common experience where the pursuit of a goal doesn't always lead to lasting contentment. Today, we have a special guest who's been on the podcast before - multi-platinum rapper, singer-songwriter, producer, and best-selling author - Russ.  Russ talks to us about his successful music career and the highs and lows that come with fame and excess. He shares his self-development journey and the realizations he's come to by facing his emotions and going to therapy.  Russ' fifth studio album SANTIAGO was released on August 18th, 2023. In our quest for understanding, we shatter the myth of perfectionism, revealing its often-hidden undercurrents and the misconceptions around seeking help. We will examine the roles we play in the lives of others and the profound effects of vulnerability on our connections, the profound shift in mindset that dismantles rigidity and nurtures flexibility, and the role of emotional suppression in men's lives.  Intriguing conversations lead us to the heart of healthy internal dialogue, providing tools to process thoughts and emotions while nurturing a sense of self-awareness. We contemplate the intricate relationship between our identities and the roles we assume, and the transformative effects of releasing these roles when they no longer serve us. In this interview, you will learn: The emotional struggles of men The misconceptions about being a perfectionist How to have a healthy dialogue with yourself How to get around destructive habits How evolution is part of personal growth How to become flexible in life We invite you to join us on this deep exploration of self, witnessing the power of embracing authenticity and confronting insecurities head-on.  With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:19 What happens when you keep chasing after something you thought you wanted but you still feel empty? 04:46 Men have become professionals in masking their emotions. What happens when it becomes too much? 08:43 What do men struggle with the most? How are they coping with it? 11:27 The misconception about being a perfectionist and how help is being coded as a form of criticism 14:26 What role do you play in other people’s lives?  16:15 Why are men afraid to show vulnerability to others, especially around women? 19:43 Everyone is at a different place in their journey, wherever you maybe right now is fine 22:57 Stop chasing approval and validation from other people 31:22 What are the practices you’re doing to validate yourself? 34:14 Healthy internal dialogue with yourself can help you process the thoughts in your mind 38:39 If your identity is based on the role you play, what happens when you can longer play that role? 39:49 What does growing up and then growing down mean? 40:58 “I don’t like myself.” Have you felt this before? 42:27 Why does the rejection of your insecurities lead to destructive habits? 45:51 What insecurity have you been holding onto? 48:00 If you can talk to your younger self now, what do you need to hear? 52:07 If you still carry the same beliefs from your younger self after learning so a lot of things then you’re not growing 56:29 The downside of having the mentality that you’re always right 58:41 The shift in mindset that can help you remove rigidity and become more flexible 01:04:01 This version of yourself that has not been shown to the world 01:06:17 Do you create a false sense of safety and security in your life? 01:11:09 Creating music after a book and the message it portrays   Episode Resources: Russ | YouTube Russ | Instagram Russ | Facebook Russ | TikTok Russ | Website Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw, real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War II?

An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover. And a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. When you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty, you realized, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing.

This is one of the most remarkable, amazing stories in hip-hop. Russ! I knew it never I wanted, never I wanted. I thought I'm never gonna get depressed, what does that even mean? I don't need any, all, look, and it's like deep down you wanted everyone though. How strong of a man are you if you're scared to face yourself? Straight up.

Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started.

I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best selling author in the post. The number one health and wellness podcast. I'm on purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose. The number one health podcast in the world,

thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Our mission and community is all about making the world happier, healthier and more healed. And today's guest is someone who is a favorite of yours of the community. He came on once before you loved it. This, the clips from that episode are going viral every week on TikTok. We can't keep up with it. We just keep sending stuff to each other.

I've been so excited for this moment to have him back on the show because when I have an instant connection with someone where you feel like you get along, you vibe, it's so rare that you want to make it happen again and again. We waited like two to three years, but here we are. I'm welcoming back the one that only Russ. Russ is a 30 year old, multi platinum rapper, singer, songwriter, producer, best selling author. Russ proved that he didn't need a major label to surpass over 10 billion streams on Spotify and Apple Music. Get on Forbes 2019-30 under 30 and make the Forbes cash kings at number 20 for most earned sell out arenas across the US and around the globe and become one of the most popular engaged rappers and thought leaders

in the world right now. If you haven't read it already, we talked about this last time, Russ's self-help book. It's all in your head, I highly recommend. And now we're talking about his new album, which is out now called Santiago. Please welcome to the show, The One and Only Russ. Wow.

Russ. What's going on? Here man, you had to the show, the one and only Russ. Wow. Where's our intro? What's going on? Here, man, you had to do all of that stuff. At it's such an interesting thing hearing like intros like that. I guess it snapped me into like, being seven and being 19 when all this was still just like, a complete fantasy. It's hard to feel it.

It's hard to feel the success of it. And this is what I've like, we're just gonna dive right in. But it's hard to feel the success of it. And this is what I've like, we're just gonna dive right in. But it's hard to feel the success of it because a lot of me struggles with just not feeling good enough for myself. So like none of it registers, you know? And that's what I've been working on.

And that's kind of what Santiago addresses a lot is sort of this like, yeah, made the Forbes list and plaques, but it didn't move the needle, you know. Yeah. It's hard. How do you go about that? I mean, like, you, I mean, you dived in, so don't blame me now.

But, you know, when you think about the idea of being enough for yourself, and how do you even start to comprehend what that even means? Because I think as you were saying, when you're young, being enough just means what being enough means to the world. Like, you're like, oh, if I get those sneakers, then I'll be enough, because my friends will think I'm cool, or if you're into academics, you'll be like, oh, if I get this grade, my parents will think that I made it.

And then all of a sudden, none of those things add up. So how do you even go about thinking about what being enough means, especially in a culture that's comparing and always putting you up against other people? Yeah, it's so hard for me because I think it does start in childhood and I think it started with wanting to meet the standard

that my dad said. And my dad who I love him and disclaimer before this interview goes more, it's like I love him and disclaimer before like this interview goes more, it's like, I love my parents and they have done, I think a great job and I don't blame them for anything. There's just realities that have happened that like, you know, there's experiences that I have that I now have to deal with and learn from, et cetera.

But my dad's standard was perfection a lot of times, you know, and he was very critical. And so for me, you know, his metric, it was impossible to me. I ended up adopting it as my own. You know, and so the inner voice for a long time, it was my dad's inner voice of, you know, that's not good enough. Now, you know, you got a 92 on the test. If you would have studied, you got 100, but it's still an A, but, you know, little things like that are showing him music early on and career stuff

and just in general, right? And, but that inner voice that used to be his became my own inner voice. So now, like, it becomes this sort of inner critic that when I go platinum, it's like, it doesn't do it. Maybe double platinum will. Maybe triple, oh, how much money did you make? 10?

Oh, maybe 11 million will make you feel good. And so you keep chasing the next thing, thinking that's what's going to make you feel good about yourself. And I think to reference like the Rick Rubin interview, I think he mentioned something where it's like, you get the number one album, you get all this stuff and it doesn't do what you wanted it to do and you feel emptier than ever. And I think that's kind of the place I got to was I got the money, the house, the this and whatever. And that's how you know there's really something missing.

Because how do you get all that and you still don't feel good? And it's a really empty feeling, because most people in the world think that the reason why they're not happy and not feeling enough is all these things that they'll probably never get. And it's kind of this beautiful, blissfully ignorant place to live because you just get to like always have this idea that nah, I know like I'm gonna keep going towards this

and I know this is what's gonna give me happiness, even though you'll probably never get it, right? Most people won't ever see a million dollars or whatever, but for the people who get in, but, and I want no sympathy for like, oh, we don't feel bad for you, you're a millionaire, get over it. But it's like, when you get everything you thought

you wanted and you still feel empty, you realize that, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing. And there's a bigger hole here. And now I need to grow down, you know, and I need to look internal because external didn't do it. And that's what Oasis is all about. The album right there. Yeah.

So Oasis is the closest track to that feeling? Or so Oasis was sort of this fool's paradise. This is what the idea behind that song was. It was like, I got the house, the life, everything on surface looked like, okay, you did it. And internally though, I was still a mess. I was joking with you, off camera, like last time we talked, I was 30 pounds overweight.

It was just proportion nicely, so it didn't, it wasn't like too big in any one place. But I was 30 pounds overweight, I was drinking too much, I was eating too much, I had no discipline over my thoughts, my eating habits, I had no discipline over my sexual energy, things like that, so it was really like, I was a glutton, you know, but the way that is dressed up sometimes, you're a rock star, you're a king, you know, but the way that is dressed up sometimes, you're a rock star. You're a king, you know?

And so Oasis is about on surface, yeah, you're eating good. You're, you know, you're gaining weight, but that's because you're getting money and you're eating good and you're sleeping with random women and drinking, but it's all good because, look, another practice came in and more money came in and another sort of show. And it was sort of poking, like that whole song, it sort of like poking fun at me, because I'm in my little oasis. I'm distracted by like, look at my house, look at my life, what, like...

I love what you just said. You're like, you're distracted by the gold. Yeah. And you're distracted by the shining lights and the bright things and the plaques. When you are that distracted, how do you open up your eyes? Like, how do you even get to a point now and you're distracted by the shining lights and the bright things and the plaques. When you're that distracted, how do you open up your eyes?

Like how do you even get to a point now where you're able to look back and go, I was distracted, now I'm a bit more awake and I'm working on this stuff, because I can imagine that it gets so loud, you're rock star, you're a king, you're all these things. And then all of a sudden, you've got to kind of like, quiet that down and go, but I'm still not happy. How do you get that breakthrough? Because I feel like we're all the best

at setting ourselves up for failure. And we're all the best at avoiding advice when it's good. Like, I know when I'm wrong because when my wife says something and I know she's right. And I don't want to admit it. Because I know she's right. And that's what, but it's that awareness piece is so hard. Yeah. How did you, what was the moment for you? Because you are killing it, you're still killing it. Yeah. You looked well then to me, you looked well today.

Like you look great, right? So, and I really enjoyed your company last time, and I'm enjoying your company this time. So externally, you could argue, well, what's going on? Well, as men, we get good at masking it. That's part of like, you know, I have a long answer for this, but go and go for it. First of all, therapy is kind of what, like,

not woke me up, but it helped. But something I learned in therapy is this idea that, you know, society measures a man based off of how much they can carry, how far they can carry it, and how alone they can carry it. And I think for a lot of men, we have become professional hiders of our pain. And so while I was quote unquote distracted, what woke me up to what was going on was that there was psychological warfare and internal chaos constantly anyway. I just kept pushing it down, pushing it down,

but I knew it was there because I was pushing it down. And it just got to a point where I just had a breakdown. When it just, you push it down enough and at some point, you can't push it anymore. And it overflows in it. And what I learned is when you're bearing it, bearing it, And it, you know, overflows in it. And what I learned is, when you're bearing it, bearing it, bearing it, when it does finally just explode, it's always going to be at the worst time. And that time came right before a European tour that I had scheduled. And

I had to cancel it because I was like, my body and spirit in mind just shut down. I just couldn't even do it. I couldn't even like go through the motions of acting like I could perform. And you know, through therapy and talking every week, you know, and really, really being vulnerable and being honest with my therapist, which I couldn't wait for. Like, getting a therapist has been at the top of my to-do list for like four years. And I just never did, I never got around to it because I just always once again was like, do I really need one? Look how good my life is. Like, no, I never got around to it because I just always once again was like, do I really need one? Look how good my life is.

No, I think I'm tripping. But it just got to this point man where I was like, I need to talk to someone because I feel like I'm going insane. It's just been so helpful because I'm like, I wanna figure out what's going on internally. So it's like, well, I don't know how to fix this. So let's act like it doesn't exist, you know?

I'm so glad you raised this because I've been looking for the person, I'm about to introduce a conversation that, I've been trying to find the right person to have it with. Yeah. And it just clicked me in this moment that you were that person. Come on.

Like literally, and I think it's such an important conversation that I've been trying to navigate. I have it offline a lot, but I haven't really had it online. So this was the first time that I talk about it here, but it's like, you just raised that as a man, especially, we're good at masking it. And I think men in today's society, being a man in today's society, is such an interesting time. And you come across to me as, you know, like you're, and you can describe in your own sense, but you're a confident man, you know, you're a man's man, I'd say as well, like I don't know how you see yourself.

That's why I don't know how you see yourself. I was going to ask you. Because you so confidently are like, hey man, I need to find help or went to therapy. Yeah. But at the same time, you're a rapper on stage, you're like dropping like the best bars. And so I'm like, when you look at that paradox, I love that because I'm thinking about what is it that you think men are struggling with most, and maybe it's even for your own friends, the people you hang out with,

what do you think men are struggling with in today's society? Because I don't feel we talk about that enough with what the struggle is. Yeah, I think, I mean, so much, but I think men are struggling with being in tune with their own emotions and feeling safe and feeling like they have permission from themselves to feel what they're feeling because society has told them, get over it effectively. You know, and I think for me, that's what I did for the most part.

And I think my generation, let alone generations before me, like we all saw our dads probably just like get over it and figure it out and brush the dirt off and keep going. And that's what I did. And I would just put little trickles of what I was feeling in the music. Like it's so funny. When I had that breakdown, when I finally just was honest with myself and got a therapist, I would go back and listen to old songs.

Like songs like Nobody Knows or songs like All To You. And it's like, these were like such cries for help that I think made me feel more insane because I would put them out and they just became songs. And it's sort of downplayed. What was really going on? Because it's like, I take a very vulnerable, real emotion of sadness and pain and confusion and feeling loss and don't know what to do

and turn it into two and a half minutes of music. And now it just becomes numbers on a screen and streams and how loud is it at the shows. And I forget, fans forget, people forget, but most importantly, I forget that. Oh no, like this was like really what I was going to. This isn't just like a lullaby. Yeah, I think you're right. I feel like when I talk to people, I feel like men are feeling a lot of pressure to be a lot of things, to be successful, to have it together, to have some emotional maturity,

figure out their mental health. And again, every gender has their own pressures that come with it. But I think I know a lot of men who feel scared to share that pressure because they feel like you said that they shouldn't have it. They're not allowed to have that pressure.

I think you're one of the few music artists that has found a way of intertwining mental health and music in a way that it's not cheesy and it's not like corny and it's not like it comes across like when I listen to you, I'm just like, God that's a bar. That's like, you know, you can appreciate it just because it's good music. Yeah. And then knowing that you have this conscious side to yourself, was that like always at the forefront of when you got into music? Or was it something that evolved with time because of your journey?

Because I think it's quite a hard balance to talk about meaningful stuff in a way that doesn't come across as cheesy and corny. So how have you found a way of being able to do that? Yeah, I think I always was looking for answers, you know? And I think I always, as a consumer of music, I always like substance and lyrics and things that I could, you know, things that meant something, you know, things that maybe could help me.

And as an artist, when I wanted to make my own, I was trying to find answers, like my creative side was trying to piece together. These other sides of me, like what was going on with my family, with my friends, with my relationship with my career, like the creative side of me would come in and be like, maybe this means that, maybe what you're feeling means this.

And like I said, there's like all these little like Easter eggs, I guess, throughout my catalog of me trying to figure it out. And so I think I was just naturally, and am naturally a curious person, and an ambitious person. And so like ambitious in the sense that I really want to figure out what is going on with me.

Like I wanna know why I think the way I think where that came from. And I think in the past, it's funny when you're like, you're a confident man, et cetera, et cetera. I was omnipotent. And I've learned that that's not confidence. That's insecurity.

And I, because, I mean, this is so multilayered but it's funny your shirt says imperfections because it really stems from me being a perfectionist. So me being a perfectionist, there's no room for me to not be right. There's no room for me to not act like I know everything and what's going on. And I got being a perfectionist from the standard

that my dad said, which ended up becoming my own standard. So early on in my career, I had this omnipotence where I knew everything, everything I was doing was right, and I felt like I had to act like that because if you're a perfectionist there is no room for criticism. Perfectionists are trying to run from criticism and help is coded as criticism to a perfectionist. So I didn't want any help, and if you tried to help, I took it as a critique and it threatened my idea of being a perfectionist. Wow.

You know? So I'm trying to figure out the answer. So like, dude, one thing you said to me last time, I've quoted this so many times in interviews when I get asked questions about like, oh, what was one of your favorite takeaways and it's from our interview and it's you said that when you sometimes get in the studio at that time,

you were like, I get rid of all my friends. Yeah. So I can be in there alone and make weird sounds that I wouldn't make when people are in the room because I might be scared of what they think. And I've said that to so many people and everyone's always like, quite blown away or taken aback because I guess it's not a common thing that artists do.

And it stayed with me for so long, but I was interested by what you just said. Like, how did your immediate... I guess your immediate circle, I'm assuming you're on people that you love, but how do you think then the wider circle responds to you saying things like, I need help, therapy is good for you. But like, do you feel like the wider circle goes automatically? Like do you think the world's got to a place now where we're like, yes, Russ, that makes sense.

You're right. Or do you still have people around you going, nah, you don't need therapy, man, you just need to go smoke or blow some cash or like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what, because you come from the rap music world, I wonder what do you hear? I think my friends, like my immediate circle, my friends were all very supportive.

My family was supportive as well, but they're obviously like, what's going on? Because my identity has been attached when it comes to my family. My identity has been attached to helping them. You know, that's how I felt safe. That was the role I played. And I've never asked for help. I've never received help.

I've never come off like I needed help. And so when they saw that I needed therapy, I'm canceling tour. It's like 911 in miles, you know, as far as like my family. And so they were just like really concerned. But I think as far as the world's concerned, I do think the world is more open and receptive to the idea of men needing help. And that's okay.

And even if they're not open to it, that is naturally where this is going. Like I just feel like the pendulum has to swing at some point. And this whole idea that men have to just be like, you know, military men who showed nothing, no emotions and like figure it out and don't ask for help and we do it ourselves, it's like, that is not sustainable.

You know, it's just not. Men need to communicate and collaborate with each other and not feel so alone. How have you found the reaction to that from like straight women to straight women find men more or less attractive or good partners based on that kind of approach and vulnerability. I think it depends on the woman.

And I think a lot of times, there's great women out there who will respond well to them. There's women who won't. And I think a lot of times with men, they are scared to show that vulnerability because of what a lot of women have displayed, which is like, now I'm not attracted to you. That's probably, yeah. And it is like, now I'm not attracted to you. That boy, yeah.

And it's like, you know, I said on, I said on enough on Santiago, some women looking at you less if there's tears on your cheek, but if there's tears tattooed, that same girl is a freak. So they're attracted to the pain unless they hear the pain speak. So it's like, it's really interesting, because when you talk to women,

when you think, when it's like, when you talk to women, when you think, when it's like when you talk to women and you like kind of see where their head's at, you see that they kind of like a lot of women want this sort of rough and rugged guy who's like, he's tough and all these things, but like you don't want him to talk about it because now he's soft. But it's like, so you want him to have some pain, because that's what makes him the rough and rugged, but you just don't want to hear about it.

And so where does he go then? And so you just want him to be quiet, but then you're wondering why he can't open up to you. Oh, well, he just doesn't open up to me. Which one is it? This isn't build a bear. You know what I mean? And I feel women too, who it's like,

dudes want the girl who does it. That's why it's like, find someone that's compatible with you and gets you and rock out and forget about the rest. Yeah, but I love the way you just, I mean, the lyric speaks for itself, but that is summed up so well. And by the way, everyone is listening, I'm not trying to take sides or you get where I'm coming from.

Like I'm just trying to come from a place of like, where are we, it's exactly what Russia said. Like we want something to be tough, but without the pain, without talking about the pain. And it's like, that's just not real. It doesn't exist. The idea that someone is tough and hasn't been through pain is non-existent.

And at some point that person is going to need to express or connect or collaborate, as you said, either with you or other people about their pain, this also applies to women, it applies to every gender that people who've been through pain are gonna have stories to tell. And if you want someone tough, chances are that they've got grit and resilience

because they've had massive loss in their life. So I think you just summed up, that is exactly what I was trying to get to. It's like pain is a prerequisite for being a tough hardened man. Hardened from what? You know, hardened by what it pain experience. So it's like, I do think it's really interesting

for the group of women who want vulnerability and openness emotionally from men who they also almost shame into thinking that keep your pain to yourself though. Yeah, and then there's the other side that find I have a lot of friends who are like, my mind doesn't open up, right? Like I have a lot of friends who are like, look, I want to be there for him.

Like I'm ready to listen to him. Like I want him to be more open about his feelings. Well, because men are scared that if they do, oh, wow, never mind. This is unattractive. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it goes against what we as men have been taught

makes a strong man. It's not personal to you. It's how society has set us up. We've been brainwashed, you know? Would you say yours is just, you're so seeking the answers. Like, what gave you the courage to break that as someone who's a stage performer? Yeah.

Crush in it. Who has actually everything that 99% of men won? Yeah. What gave you the, was it courage or was it just like, I just need this, like, you know? Yeah, it was at a desperation, to be honest. And also, I think like being isolated from society plays like a part in it.

Like, I'm not out and about. I'm not out and about. I'm not trying to be on the scene and make friends. There's a part of being in my bubble that sort of gives me that safety net of like, okay, if I'm vulnerable, it's like, who does that really? I'm not worried if that girl or this person

is gonna feel a way. It's kind of just me that I see the difference. I feel like people struggle with that even if they're not an in-entertainment. Yeah. People get glued to social media. They get addicted. How are you keeping distance when you're so interconnected to the industry in one sense? I think it's also just a testament though to my fans. I think I've had like, I'm really fortunate to have the kind of fans that I do that are actually supporters of me. And from the beginning, I've tried to be as authentic

as I was in that moment. And I've tried to be vulnerable and introspective. And I think all of that played a part and when I did have to cancel tour and when I have let fans in on the journey of mental health and therapy, then being open to it because this isn't coming out of complete left field as far as the introspection and the vulnerability. I'm a vulnerable artist.

I never was that worried, like, if my male fans would be like, oh, we're out. Because it's like, y'all are singing, losing control. You know what I mean? Y'all are singing love songs and heartbreak songs. So, you know what I'm saying? Straight up. And it's like, everyone's at a different place in their journey. And like, wherever you're at is fine. Yeah, I remember that when I was a teenager, when I thought I was, that's when I thought I was cool.

It was like, I was that kind of person that didn't understand how someone could get depressed. Because I didn't get it. I was like that four years ago. It's so bad. Yeah, and it's like you had that mindset, like what does that mean? And then you go through your own stuff

and you're like, oh, I get it now. And I found that, for me, I found that life has this really strange way of making you go through things that you thought shouldn't affect anyone. So if you and your head have an idea of like, I don't understand that, I don't know how that affects someone. Last say, just wait literally, and that's what happened to me so many times. And so whenever now I have that thought, I literally catch it and I go,

let's get rid of that thought, because let me actually try and be curious about it, rather than look at it in a condescending way, because chances are, if I see it in a derogatory way or a negligent way, I'm gonna have to experience it just for life to teach me that it's real. Yeah, yeah, I got humbled for sure by that kind of thing where it's like, I realized, back to me being omnipotent, I got humbled by realizing, oh, I don't know everything.

You know, because I thought I'm never gonna get depressed. What does that even mean? Like, what's happening? You know, and then obviously you're like, okay, so this can happen to me. Yeah, describe that for me. What was that for you? Like, I think you hear, and I think I can ask you this

because I feel like you articulate your thoughts so well and you really get in there with what's going on. Like, so many people have said this, right? This idea of like, you get the triple platinum, you get the money and it doesn't work. Like, what actually, and I'm asking you, because I feel like you get in there, what is actually not working about that?

Like, what is it about that that doesn't help you feel better or solve the void? What is it? Why does it not work? Because I think so many people say that, but then everyone goes, oh yeah, but you're a millionaire, you can say that. Yeah. But let's try help people out there because I still, like, if I prefer being financially safe and successful in doing what I love, I do prefer that to when I was close to being

broke and not successful in what I did. Right. I much prefer my life right now. Right. But I also know that the thing that gives me deep meaning and keeps me going is my purpose that's connected to my work. Like as long as I feel I'm positively impacting people, I'm serving people and I'm using my voice

to make a difference in people's lives, that is what actually makes me happy. Yeah. And then what happens around it is like the best bonus of all time. Yeah, see that's a good value to have though, is like a good perspective for me, the plaques, and whatever it not working is really just because you're clearly, or I was clearly seeking validation

subconsciously, and I thought that becoming a big artist and plaques and all that was going to make me feel validated and make me feel like I belong and make me feel approved and make me feel good enough. And when I got all that and I still had all of those issues, that's what I mean by not working. And I agree too, like I prefer my life now than the alternative, but the whole is still there.

And I think at 17, when I started like really going after this, I don't know if I had the depth and the awareness to know what I was going after. Like I'm chasing approval and validation, but when I look back, I can pinpoint certain behaviors and certain times in the studio, whatever, But when I look back, I can pinpoint certain behaviors in certain times in the studio, whatever where I was like,

where I can tell, I wanted people to validate me. And I thought that rap in the industry was gonna pat me on the back. That's kind of what I talk about and I love you, boy, which is like, I replaced my dad with the industry, which is really like wild, right? Because I felt like as a kid wanting just approval of your dad as a son, you know, when you don't get it, you can feel like ostracized

kind of and just like you don't belong. You're not good enough on and all these things. And it's so strange that as a white guy, what I chose to pick to replace my dad to give me approval was a craft that I'm not, that I'm ostracizing off of that. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, I picked the hardest thing to get approval from. Like, I've replaced my dad with an industry and started to rap, I wanna praise an acknowledgement and pick the profession that people who look like me

don't get. You know what I mean? So it's like, it was almost like, I guess if I could like analyze where my head was at when I was 17, maybe because it's like, if I could get approval from this thing that I love, this genre, this lifestyle, this whole culture, then I'm officially approved, you know, because I know how hard it is to

get approval from that. And I don't know, it just, but it really stems from once again not having the self-approval and the self-validation and thinking that someone else is going to give it to you. And I remember talking with my therapist and he was like, oh, I think I said like, yeah, but if I do get a number one album or a number one, go number one on the Billboard Hot 100 and this person says I'm great, I'm sure like I'll feel really good.

He's like, you probably will for about 20 minutes. And then I think you'll have your lowest moment of your life. You know, and I agree. You know, because when I have gotten crazy accomplishments, it lasts for not that long. And I'm right back to like, I'm lower because that's another thing on the list that didn't do it. That's another thing that didn't fill the hole. You know, Forbes list, no platinum, nope, buy a mom house, nope, like none of it, you know. I see what you're saying, and I want that to register

with people because what Russ is doing, which I appreciate, is clarifying the difference. It's great in and of itself. It just doesn't feel the hole inside. Like it doesn't solve the fact that I don't feel better about who I am, and myself. It's beautiful to buy your mom a house. Of course. That's awesome. It's good for her.

It's great. That's not the point. The point is, it doesn't change how I feel about my level of self-worth and self-esteem. Yeah, the point is, if I thought that buying my mama house and making the Fordless and going platinum was going to make me feel validated, approved, and I'm good enough, then that's the mistake.

That's where you're gonna feel emptier than ever because you're gonna do that and that's not what's gonna do it, you know? What's really interesting for me listening to you is, so I'm kind of like where you're at with your parents where I love both my parents and independently and in the same way, I have a good relationship with both of them today.

And, but it wasn't always, it wasn't that way externally. And when my dad, especially, so my dad didn't validate me or even support me when I was growing up. Like he would, if he turned up to a swim competition because I used to swim a lot, when I'd look up at the stands, he'd be reading his newspaper. Wow, yeah.

So, or if I played rugby for my school, and it was one of my favorite things that I made it onto my school's rugby team, it was to be a lot bigger growing up. And he would never turn up to support me. And so my dad wasn't there, and that was really interesting, because at the time, it made me just want to get approval

of my friends and be cool and whatever, and that leads you to do all sorts of dumb stuff. Yeah. But what it ultimately led me to was, I got to make my own rules of what success were. So not getting his, he never had a version of success for me. Like he almost didn't have like, this is what you have to be to be successful.

And so I've always seen it as, I just got freedom to define what kind of man I wanted to be. Because my dad didn't really define what kind of man he cared I would be. And it's really interesting now, because when I look at my relationship with him today, he's more like a friend than he is my dad, because he wasn't really fathering me.

And I think where I got really lucky, this really was one of those moments when you feel fortunate, is I projected that lack of fatherhood, fortunately onto the monks. So I, like, because that wasn't what I was meant to be and I wasn't spiritually and I've really looked at that as like, I didn't have any positive role models in my life. I didn't have any positive male role models in my life. And the monks were positive male role models and I met them at, when I was 18 years old.

Which is so important. So important. And the crazy thing about them is, they don't validate you. Wow. So it was like even more challenging, but it's like you see an amazing role model who's showing you the right way,

but is not trying to falsely validate or approve you. So you still have to face the right way. You still have to do it yourself. You still have to do it yourself. You still have to do it yourself. They're teaching you what you just said. How to do it yourself. Like that it's still you on your own. You got to live in your own mind.

And when you realize that it's like, yeah, I live in my own mind. These are my thoughts. What you just said earlier, I either have to, I either am translating my dad's voice into becoming my voice, or I'm actually gonna choose what's voice into becoming my voice. Right. Or I'm actually gonna choose what I want my thoughts to be. Right.

And that's where they were training us in. So, through so much fortune, I got to that point. Yeah. And even till this day, I'm constantly just practicing that. Because again, I haven't perfected it. I still get into the place where you start hearing the noise. It's so funny, because that's why I ended the album with just me singing.

It was you all along. Because all these things I'm chasing, validation, love, approval, patience, all of it is things that I have to give myself. And I just, I thought that everything and everyone else was going to give it to me. Tell me some of the ways you've been giving it to yourself because you are getting, like you said, a lot of people get to the point you've got to when they're unsuccessful. So like they wait till the records now not getting the downloads and the streams and like they're not really winning the stuff and things aren't going well and then you go, oh this wasn't it. You're

realizing it while things are hot, right? Like things are good. You're going to your album dropping, the music sounds great by the way. I wanted to say like I was thankful that your team sent me the album before and it's like I can't wait to play it more and more and I can't wait for everyone to hear it music's awesome and I just go you're winning and you realized it like what are some of the things you're doing to validate yourself like what you do it's like that's what I'm still working on you know What are some of the practices that happens? I am Yomla, and on my podcast, The R-Spot,

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I think, you know, it's having good values is one of them. Values that I can control. I think honoring the gift is important celebrating myself. And I think a way that I've celebrated myself, which makes me feel good about myself, is to honor my gift. And so for example, going to the gym, for me to lose 30 pounds of fat, not muscle, right? 30 pounds of fows, crazy. I did it through shame. You need to lose weight, you know,

and just talking crazy to myself and it's still worked, but I lost the weight and I still didn't feel good about myself, I still had a breakdown, you know. And so now I'm looking at going to the gym as I'm celebrating my health and my body. I'm honoring the gift of being alive and being mobile, and celebrating the gift of my creativity by going to the studio,

instead of looking at going to the studio, like, I need to catch a hit otherwise I'm a loser. It's like, nah, I'm celebrating myself. Every time I go to the studio, it's a celebration. That's already a great mindset. It's better than where I was at. No, but I think what we don't realize is even if critical judgmental negative motivation works,

the problem is now that's all you have in your toolkit to motivate yourself. So when you've lost the way you wanted to lose, you're now motivating yourself still through that criticism judgment and talking down to yourself. And even with the music, I love what you just said, you feel so much more abundant when you walk into something and you go, I'm just here because I'm grateful to be alive. I'm happy to be here as opposed to, God, if I don't write the next here.

And I know so many musicians that say that to me and the music is the hardest place. And I feel like I have so many people in my life that are friends that feel that pressure because again, like you said, it's the pressure they're hearing from their management, their team, their fans, potentially, if they're not connected to them, you're gonna become irrelevant,

you'll never be as big as so and so. Didn't you see what they just did? And so if you don't have that healthy dialogue internally, and I do think it is that for me as well, it's like I spend so much time alone, just to monitor my internal dialogue. It's scary. Because it's the only way, it's terrifying.

Because when I'm alone, I can truly choose and program the thoughts in my mind, whereas if I'm constantly surrounded by people and noise, it's natural that it's gonna seep in. Well, sometimes the noise distracts us from looking in because looking at it's scary. That's what I was doing. I think that's the biggest reason why people don't want to spend time with. Of course. Especially men.

Because we once again know that, or we have believed that our emotions are relevant and ignore them, be just completely avoid feeling anything and that's what makes you a man. I think spending time alone in meditation and doing personal work is a very, it feels feminine to man, it feels soft and the, like something interesting that I stumbled on is like, how strong of a man are you and how brave of a man are you if you're scared to face yourself. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's the real brave review. Yeah. Sitting in a room with yourself. That's like, that's courageous. Yeah. I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier that it's the perfection and positivity issue that we keep thinking that everything has to be like positive and sunny. And when I look

inside of myself, I see tons of a dark side and stuff that I don't want to see. But I also know that that's not me because of how we were trained. The idea that, you know, the concept in all of the monk teachings is that the sun is always shining. It's just often covered by clouds. And so when you look up at the sky, all you see is the clouds. You don't see the sun and you think, I am the clouds. Wow. So when you look at your thoughts, you see the cloudy thoughts and you think, I'm darkness.

But actually, the sun's always there. It's just you can't see it. And so the light that me and you are, the light that everyone who's listening and watching is, is always there. It's just we're just seeing all the dirt and the clouds and the rain and the, you know, and we then judge it and see it as negative

rather than the fact that, hey, wait a minute, I'm just gonna find the light and I understand that sometimes it's gonna be a cloudy day just like it is outdoors. Yeah, and that's what led me to feeling like a fraud. That's, that song's amazing. That's what that is, is because looking at the cloud, thinking you are the cloud.

And so then when people give you a compliment, you're like, they're giving you a compliment on you being the sun. And for me, I'm like, if only you knew I was a cloud. I would look at my shadow self and the parts of me that I'm ashamed of. It would make it impossible for me to receive love and compliments or anything positive.

Also, tidying with feeling like a fraud was me having to analyze what, why did my parents get any divorce actually affect me? Why did the hate coming in actually affect me? Because on surface, it felt so vapid. Like, your parents broke up and people don't like you. Big deal, right? But when I threw therapy and threw really growing down, that's when I learned like, okay, hold on,

since I was a kid, my role and my identity came from being the savior of my family emotionally, you know? And I talk about it on, I love you, where my dad was very reactive and my mom was like fatalistic. And I was just the one running around knocking on everyone's door to make sure like everyone was good after a big fight or whatever, you know, because I was worried, genuinely worried so the stakes were super high. They felt like life or death, you know, like maybe there was going to be self-harming or something. And so my identity was tied to saving my family and helping them. So when my parents got divorced, it was the ultimate blow to my identity of being the

savior. It wasn't just like your parents broke up, bro, you're 23, you get over. It was like, who am I if I, if my parents break up? Who am I if I can't save us, right? And then with the hate coming in, I got myself worth from being approved and liked by everyone. And so when I got hate and a lot of it, it wasn't just you have haters get over, it was who am I if people don't like me.

So, that's what threw me for a spin. It was, I feel like a fraud. That is so, yeah, your identity is based on the roles you played. And if you can no longer play that role, who am I? Then who is, what is your identity? And that's where it's hard because that means

going back to what you said earlier, which was really powerful, is that your values is the best place to start, because your values is something you can control. If you only value yourself for a role you play for other people, which you don't control, now that's not your value. And when they break up,

or it goes astray, you don't know who you are anymore. That is devastating blow. Yeah, yeah, especially when I didn't know why I was so upset by it, you know. I was like, this shouldn't be effective. I'm 24, 24, like what's the big deal? But it just didn't go away.

And then it was funny that like the hate and them divorcing came at the same time. And now when I look back, I'm like, this was all like by design. You know, this was all to help me grow down. But yeah, it's like, you know, when you've gotten your identity from a role that you've been playing for so long and that role has taken away from you or threatened,

it's like, yeah, who are you? You said that phrase twice just now growing down, not growing up. Yeah. What does that mean? because I like that? I think a lot of times in my career, I was just focused on like external growth. And like, am I getting more followers? Am I getting more money?

Am I getting more plaques? And am I growing up, you know? And I wasn't focused on growing down into like the core of who I am and getting to the root of it and to the truth of myself. And that's what I've been trying to do. That's what this album is is like me growing down, trying to like get deeper and deeper into who I actually am.

You know, because I'm just trying to operate from a place of authenticity and truth. And it's hard to feel authentic and be authentic when you're operating from a place of shame. Like I'm ashamed of who I am, and I'm insecure about who I am, so how can I be authentic? Because authentic, being authentic

would mean being insecure and being, and it's like, I can't be that, especially in rap. You know what I mean? So it's like, gotta mask it, gotta be omnipotent, you know? What was the darkest and scariest thing you saw when you started growing down? I think the biggest thing I, the darkest thing in thought I had was like, I don't like myself.

That was like the heaviest. And what was it that you didn't like the way you saw it? I was ashamed about how I've handled my career. I was very mad about at like 23 year old me. I would beat him up daily. I was mad about me being reactive towards people. I just didn't like anything about myself. And that was a real low point of like,

once again, fraud, if only the world knew, and I've self-help book. And I mentioned that on fraud as well. It's like, who am I? Like to try to give people a book. Like, and for me, the book's so successful and has helped a lot of people, but I look back at that book. I'm like, it's like vapid to me now, you know, and I'm glad it's helping people, but and I shouldn't, I shouldn't denounce any version of me. That's like, you're watching it in real time, what I do. And yeah, that's the heaviest, darkest thing that I've come to terms with,

not that it's a reality of mine, that I wanna come to terms with, but getting to a place of like, I don't like myself, that was the lowest point. I love what you just said, that it's like being authentic means being able to accept that I feel insecure. And that last version of me just got me through that.

And that doesn't make it good or bad, but it was a reality. But we think being authentic means being like smooth and like organized. What I've learned in therapy is the admission of insecurity and feeling nervous is step one. Because what happened to me, and I think what happens to a lot of people,

is rejecting your insecurities leads to self-destruction. So, for example, I used to do interviews super drunk, right? Why? Because I was nervous and insecure about just being my authentic self. I didn't know how to be that version. So I would drink to knock the edge off. So like the rejecting of my insecurity led to self-destructive habits and overall a result that I don't like, you know?

So yeah, I think just sitting in your insecurities and saying that it's okay to be insecure and feel nervous. And I think for me, it's like, nah, like, especially as men, like, nah, I'm not allowed to, like, we got to be the man, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often, like, even when I, if I ever end up, I don't go to many parties or events and things like that, but if I ever have to or I do go for a specific purpose, And it was someone, it was what, it was on the Trevor Noah interview and Trevor came on the show, he said to me,

he goes, Jay, you always seem really comfortable whenever I see you somewhere. And I was like, that's because I only really go to places I have a purpose. Like I was like, I don't have a purpose there. I was like,

if you ever see me uncomfortable, it's because I don't have a purpose there. I don't know what I'm doing there. Yeah. And I had a couple of those last year, which we talked about as funny enough, my team was like, oh, you should definitely go to this event. It's I'm doing there. Yeah. And I had a couple of those last year, which we talked about as funny enough, my team was like, oh, you should definitely go to this event.

It's really important and stuff. And so I went along and I just felt really insecure there in useless because I didn't have a role. I didn't have a purpose. I wasn't representing what I believe. I go to, obviously I was representing myself, but I mean, I wasn't there to represent anything bigger than me showing up.

And I found that when I do feel like that, I just go up to one other person that I feel I could connect with and just be like, Hey, are you feeling insecure too? Because I am. And it's amazing. Because everyone's feeling insecure, especially at these big events. Yeah. That like, no one, there's no one, no matter how cool you think anyone is, there is no one who's that an award-sharing event

or a part you're anything that is feeling anything but insecure. I've not met them at least. It doesn't that break the wall down. Literally completely. As soon as you do that, it goes away. It's the resisting the insecurity that has everyone on edge and they're looking at you

and you seem to have it all the way together. Meanwhile, you're panicking inside. Now, they feel like, well, you seem to have it all the way together. Meanwhile, you're panicking inside and now they feel like, well, I got to have it all the way together and we're all tense and just acting. And if we could just be like, hey, is everyone nervous? It's almost like, let's all stand here naked. That's what that does emotionally. You know what I mean? It's like, all right, cool.

Now, let's continue. Yeah, and that happens in all, it happens in family events, it happens at weddings, it happens at holiday events, like it happens in normal life. You don't, this isn't just about the entertainment industry. Like it happens everywhere. Yeah. And I fully agree with you that it's cause-wredd just resisting in your words, like resisting that insecurity.

Yeah. What's an insecurity that you are resisting for the longest time? Like what would you say was an insecurity that you've just been holding on to for feeling like I don't belong? That's probably like one of the biggest ones. Being a white guy in rap, in hip hop, with no cosine within the culture to sort of make me feel like I do belong. It was, it was a massive insecurity of mine, and I just came in guns blazing.

Like, I don't need any of all, look, and it's like deep down, you wanted everyone though. You wanted help, deep down, you know? But you masked it by, well, if I'm not gonna get it, I'll do it myself. And that became like a really big like brand and motto for me. And I don't think people understand that my song do it myself in that energy.

It was survival. It wasn't like if you have people willing to help, you should tell them no. It was, I didn't have help. I wish I did, but I didn't. So I had to do it myself. Has there anyone who's ever reached out in the industry that you feel has, not cosine, obviously, but given you a bit of that

kind of nurturing, or has it still always been kind of like, I'm making my way? I think I've met a lot of great people in the industry who have given me validation. Like, you're great, you're dope. But like, yeah, I mean, I've never been like taking under someone's wing. Yeah.

It was always just kind of like me and my manager just like going at this thing, you know? And I'm trying to be more proud of my younger self as much as I wanna beat him up for how he like was, I'm Nippetin and a maniac, but it's like for what you were going through, you crushed, you know? Like I don't know how you did all that.

And that's what I love you, boy. That song is about, especially on that third verse where it's like, you know, saying, you deserve a pat on the back. You know, it's just like, I've never given myself a pat on the back. And I wanted to take that song to like, as an opportunity to give myself the much needed,

you know, pat on the back. In compassion. Inspired by that song needed, you know, pat on the back. Yeah, and compassion. Inspired by that song, if you saw, like, if you were, if instead of me, your younger self was sitting in front of you, this is a therapy exercise, right? This is the thing. It's not a me, if you're younger self was sitting in front of you right now, like sitting in this seat,

what does he need to hear? Not advice, but what does he need to hear? What does he need to hear? He needs to hear that you're, but what do you need to hear? What does he need to hear? He needs to hear that you're okay, you're safe, and I got you. That's what he needs to hear. And what do you think he'd say back? Probably I don't need your help. Yeah. It's really interesting how like what I think all of us need from ourselves is just more compassion and more grace. And the younger version of me needs that, so bad, needed that, so bad, and I didn't get it. And he didn't know how to receive that help and receive that compassion.

And I don't know if I was talking to him, and he rejected the help and compassion, I would just keep trying. Because I know that's what he really needs. And he just wants to feel safe, like he belongs, like it's gonna be okay. Like he's allowed to make mistakes, you know. That's the other thing. Once again, being a perfectionist, it's like, it really is like hindering when it comes to

everything, like accepting help, because once again, help is coded as criticism, as a perfectionist, feeling good about anything you've done because you could have always done better so you didn't quite nail your standard of perfection. And I just think like that's what I'm trying to get to now is giving myself more grace. And I talk about it on tunnel vision

where I say, I wanna stop thinking that I gotta go through hell to get the credit I desperately need to give to myself. You know, you can just do this an easier way. Yeah. It's also hard being a high performer who gives grace to themselves. Yeah. Because that's the hard part, right?

It's like, I wanna perform at the best, but I know I need to be nice to myself, but I can't be too nice because I'm too nice to myself. Then I can't perform my best and it's like this fight inside of you. Yeah, I think it comes down to kind of what you were saying earlier where it's like, if your toolkit is only shame and like dark motivation, then you're just going to use that. And it's not sustainable. I think for me, the light motivation is like, you know, I love what I'm doing.

You know, when I'm on stage, I love the fans. I love performing. And as long as I did my best, I have to be okay with that. You know, I can say, oh, okay, you know, I know I can do better than that. But tonight, I did my best. And it's easier said than done. Like, I'm working on that, but I think that's the place to start.

It's just knowing like, did you do your best with the resources that you had? And to think that you were supposed to just be this all-knowing entity. Yeah. It's like, that's arrogance, you know? But that's why I would beat myself up a lot. It's like, how did you not know?

You know, but it's like, you're allowed to not know everything. That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful, actually, to look back and think, I wouldn't have done anything, but I'm glad that I had to just go through that. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on I Heart. I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford University, and I've spent my career exploring

the three-pound universe in our heads. On my new podcast, I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions so we can better understand our lives and our realities. Like, does time really run in slow motion when you're in a car accident? Or Or can we create new senses for humans? Or what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain

steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eagelman, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is what it sounds like inside the box car. I'm journalist and I'm Morton in my podcast City of the Rails. I plung into the dark world of America's railroads searching for my daughter Ruby who ran off to hop trains. I'm just like stuck on this train, not where I'm gonna end up, and I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters,

living outside society, off the grid, and on the edge. I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom, this community. No one understands who we truly are. The Rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, freedom, this community. No one understands who we truly are. The rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, and the thing we call the American dream. It's the last vestige of American freedom.

Everything about it is extreme. You're either going to die, or you can have this incredible rebirth and really understand who you are. Come with me to find out what waits for us in the City of the Rails. Listen to City of the Rails on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Or, cityoftherails.com. That's who I was back then.

That's who I was back then. Those were like, I based my decisions in the past off of what I knew back then. And what felt true to me back then, what felt authentic, and with the reservoir of knowledge I had back then. That's what I based my decisions off of. Obviously now, seven years later, 10 years, whatever it is, I would make different decisions,

but it's like, I can't be mad at 23 year old me that he didn't know what 30 year old me. Yeah, yeah. It's so hard for me to not want to beat him up. Like, you're such an idiot. I can't be mad at 23 year old me that he didn't know what 30 year old me is. Yeah. It's so hard for me to not want to beat him up. Like you're such an idiot. All you had to do was like, read this one book and you would have even been better off. Yeah. You know, sometimes it feels like the answer was right there.

But that's what it is, right? Like we have this tabit as humans where we judge ourselves of one conversation, one event, one performance, one song, one meeting, and one's really interesting thing is about that is that we then project that onto other people where we judge them on one song, one moment, one interaction, rather than looking at someone as this story of a human, and it's fascinating to me that you would never, ever pick up a book

and read one page and judge the whole book. You, no one really does that. Right. You would read some of the book at least, but it's like with ourselves and without this, we don't see them as a story, we see them as a page. Yeah, that's so true. It's so brutal though. It's. Right. It's so brutal though.

It's so brutal. It's so brutal. I do it to myself and I think in the world of social media too, you're not allowed to make mistakes. Your one mistake is the book. That just tells me everything I need to know about you and how you treat yourself. Because I know I tend to be, and this is not a great thing, a very judgmental person, and I justify it by saying, relax, I judge myself too.

It's like, that's not good though. But I do what you said. I look at one event and be like, you don't deserve anything because of that one combo or that one tweet or that one, not realizing that at that point, that was where that person was. Right, right. And actually, we open that at that point, that was where that person was. Right. Right.

And actually we open people up to change, including ourselves, when we recognize that our capacity for change can increase. Right. If you look back at an event, like you're saying, and you're like, I actually appreciate it, that's what I knew then. I didn't do something I was proud of,

but that's what I knew then. Yeah. Now that I, I think there's a famous Maya Angelou quote where she says that, now that I know's all I knew then. Now that I think there's a famous Maya Angelou quote where she says that, now that I know better, I do better. Right. And the idea of if you don't accept that that's possible for you and others,

that's what actually keeps you in prison because you keep saying, no, no, no, that's who you are. Right. That event 10 years ago is who you are and that's who you will ever be. It's so tough. That's so true. It's tough.

But I mean, in social media, you're not allowed to change your mind. That also keeps people, especially celebrities and people in the public eye, like into this prison, where it's like, no, no, no, no. What you said you believed, what you said 10 years ago, you better still believe that or your fake like, and it's crazy because you're allowed to change your mind and not only are you allowed to change your mind, you're supposed to change your mind.

You're supposed to now have a new belief system. It's not like Rick Rubin talked about it with you and I thought it was so spot on. It's like, if you still like have the same beliefs you did 20 years ago upon learning new things and you're not growing like, you know, but I think that's why you got to like remove yourself from social media and what the world in the mob of the internet. Stop trying to reconcile with them, reconcile with yourself and give yourself the permission to change your mind. Yeah. Yeah. I've what something you think that you have changed your mind on from, let's say, like maybe 10 years ago or maybe if you need to go back longer, 20 years ago, like, I'll share one of mine. Mine was when I was young, I didn't, because I grew up in this mindset,

I believe that people who had money had to do something dodgy to get money. Yes. Because that's the language that I was raised in. Like, we always heard that like, oh yeah, but he doesn't pay his taxes. Right. If I saw a nice car and I'd be like, my family would be like, oh yeah, yeah, but they always do that dodgy business on the side. And so in my head, anyone who had money

must be doing something wrong to have money. And that not only did that limit me from appreciating others or admiring or learning from those people, it blocked me from thinking that was good for me and possible for me. Right. Because you would have had to do that. Because I would have had to do that.

You know what, you stuff, and I thought I was a good person. So I don't, I'm not going to do anything bad. So you'll never get money. So you know you're going to be, yeah, exactly. And then you all of a sudden start realizing where like you need to meet, and this is why I think, this is why I love the podcast,

cause I wanna show people, or show sides of people, or let people show sides of themselves, where people can go, oh, that is possible. I can be a rapper, and go to therapy, like I can be, I can be someone who makes songs about this, this, this, and work on myself. Like, there is an end as opposed to like this, you know, or an agent, yeah. Exactly. So for me, that was a big one for me of recognizing that you could make money

with integrity. You could use it in service. It could be used proactively for purpose. And that was a massive limiting belief and negative belief. I had what was something for you that you that you changed your mind on. I think the big thing for me was thinking that I was always right. Ooh, that's a good one. That's the biggest one for me because I was operating in this place once again of omnipotence, just that I knew everything. everything I did was right, every decision I've ever made was right, because look at my life, clearly everything I've ever

done was right, and everything I say is right, everything I know. So I got to a place now where I'm so much more curious, and I'm so much more humble in the sense of like, I'm open to being wrong, because it's like, and I believe what I believe, but I'm open to changing my mind. I'm open to someone else telling me their beliefs and me being open-minded and curious about it. I'm open to not always being right.

And I think that is a much better like starting place. And that's, it's really interesting, because everything we're saying is basically that paradox. It's like we were saying, you wanna be ambitious, but you gotta have grace for yourself. You wanna know your values, but you wanna be open to learning more and changing them.

And it's almost like everything is this. And I think that's where we struggle the most because whether it's parenting, whether it's school, whether it was our background, we were always told that there was one right answer. Right. Right, like you had to get it in the back of the book. And it's like, yeah, yeah.

And it's like there's one right answer that everyone has to get to. And if you're one mark off the answer, then it's the wrong answer. And the truth is that life is so variegated. It is so gray. It is, as you just said, even when you were talking earlier, you were like, there are so many layers to this. Yeah. So it's like variegated, it is so gray. It is, as you just said, even when you were talking earlier, you were like, there are so many layers to this.

Yeah. So it's like one answer is, material stuff doesn't make you happy, right? But it's like, when you broke down the layers of like, actually, why did my parents divorce make me unhappy? It's because this, and so you're like, everything is so layered, but I feel like we haven't, I don't know if our brain, our brain almost needs not an app,

but our brain needs the ability to be able to understand how everything is so multilead. But it's so much easier to just put someone in a box and go, that's what I'm judging. And just be more flexible. Yeah. And I think atomic habits talks about like keeping your identity small.

And I thought, so genius talks about, there's athletes who their identity is, I'm an athlete, I'm a point guard. And what happens when you're not playing basketball anymore though. And they have this identity crisis. And sometimes it gets really, you know, severe. And he talks about how like instead of saying, I'm an athlete, how about saying, I'm a hard worker who, you know, works well with teams and did it. And so that you can still get, you can still apply what your strengths are from being an athlete into other aspects of your life after being an athlete is done.

And I thought that was so powerful because it's so easy to get tied up into I'm a rapper or I'm a this or I'm a that. And you start trying to like do things based off of the perception of yourself. And I just think being more flexible, you know, and not being so rigid on who you are and just, you know, be open. What's something that you were very, I guess, inflexible about, unflexible about, and now that you've become more flexible about, and your identity.

I think being a man and being what I thought that means, like, being start not showing any emotion, not showing like anything is affecting me, not receiving help, doing it myself, all these things, like that to me is the most valuable thing that I'm now flexible on, is because I've learned that there's strength and vulnerability and there's strength in being honest and there's strength in collaboration. Learning from positive male role model who's older than you and just can give you new wisdom, new knowledge. It's like there're strengthening collaboration. I think we've talked about it in therapy, it was this documentary that my therapist was talking about.

And you're talking about how alpha males who lead by dominance via fear are often exiled or killed. And the ones who lead through collaboration and cohesion like exhibit peace and people love them. And it's so funny because I think growing up, we would idolize those male figures who were the just dominant, just invoke fear and all these things.

And I'm just trying to help myself, and I'm also trying to help my fans and then on a real, real specific level, I'm trying to be a lighthouse for young men that can look at me and say, you know what, I don't have to have it all figured out because he doesn't. And if he's allowed to make mistakes, I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm trying to get men and people to just be nicer to themselves, have more compassion, have more grace. I love what you were saying about leaders because I feel like there is that perception that leaders have to be stoic and strong and cold.

And it was really interesting to me because I'm still close with my monk teachers and like they're the kind of people that like would come and sit in the back on the floor of a class and listen to a young monk give a talk. And that was considered humility and the strength of a leader was like, they weren't enforcing their authority. Like, they would always say like, a real leader doesn't, I would always hear them say this, like a real leader doesn't demand respect, they command it.

Right, it's just natural for them. They don't have to walk into the room and all eyes on me, they don't have to do something big to gain attention. They actually would come on and put the spotlight on you. Right. But it's interesting because that isn't our general belief around leaders, we almost want to be pushed around

and moved around to think someone's powerful. It's almost like if someone's kind and gracious, you kind of think of them as like a soft, a soft and a pushover, yeah. Whereas, and so I think there's so much rewiring that almost needs to go on into what is healthy leadership. I know, and I'm not like the epitome of, you know, where neither of us should be looking,

but it's like, I agree. I think there's a rewiring that has to happen on what it means to be a man. And I think men need to also stop looking for what it means to be a man from women. And women need to stop even caring what men say when it comes to what does it mean to be a woman? It's, we don't know each other's experiences, you know? Men need more male collaboration, positive male collaboration, positive role models. And I think it's what you said earlier,

like knowing that we're wrong. If we are sitting with someone to learn about them, actually go into it going, I probably don't know what you're going through right now. And I'm probably wrong, as opposed to like, yeah, I already know, I've got you figured out like all men are like this or women are like this or whatever it may be, which is kind of how we live in the world.

Does anything, do you sleep well? What keeps you up at night? I sleep well now. I got a aurora ring. Oh nice. Yeah. I like the aurora ring. Yeah.

I'm a, I don't know, I'm 30 now. I'm trying to like be in bed by, you know, midnight. Dude, you get, I'm 36 this year, and I sleep at 9.30 pm. Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah, it's so good. I'm going to sleep at 9.50, getting 8 hours of sleep. I feel like waking up going on walks. I'm like, who am I?

This is crazy. How does it feel to have hit that in 31 soon? Even Santiago, this feels like my debut album, because it just feels like this is a version of myself that has not been shown to the world. And I still feel as young as I ever felt, but I just feel like I know myself more, I'm more comfortable with myself.

I'm living in more of my truth and authenticity. And I'm excited, like I just feel, I feel blessed to make it out of my 20s alive, you know, without any like drug problems or anything, because looking back, I'm like, I can see, you know, reasons for numbing the pain, you know, but, um, yeah, I'm excited. I also love the, you know, I was watching you, I'm always following everything you're up to,

and I love the way you talk to the fans when you're on stage and when you post from it, but also how you've been encouraging so many young artists to like jump on tracks and like be a part of the music through TikTok and everything else. And like, I think that's so dope, man, because I just, I think there was, I think there was one when you do with Caitlin, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was just like, I just, I think there was, I think there was one when you do with Caitlin, right? Yeah, yeah. And it was just like, I just found that whole approach to be so true to how you came up. Yeah. And what you do and like being able to post on, how does that feel to be able to now like, it's incredible. I feel like, I've said it before to like my friends and people, like, you don't really feel the power of your platform or the power of

your money until you give it away and see how it affects someone who maybe doesn't have that. It sort of like snaps you out of it for a second. It snaps you into really what you've built. But yeah, I mean, for me, the approach on TikTok and putting Caitlin on the song, it's like, it's a no-brainer. And that's where I'm glad I don't have an ego in that sense.

And that field, it's like's where I'm glad I don't have an ego in that sense. And that field, it's like, if I'm putting up a song and someone is affected by it enough to want to do their own version, and people love it, and I think it sounds good, why would I not just make that a thing? Just like, this is the entertainment business, and it's like, meaning we're in the business of people enjoying what you're doing. This is a Chico. They've already said that they enjoy it. Just give it to them. Psych, you know. I thought it was dope. I love to do it. Yeah, she's great. Very incredible. Yeah, very talented.

Where you just mentioned the ego there. Where does the ego still block you sometimes? Like you were like, that's somewhere where I don't have an ego. Where is someone? I don't have a, how would you describe the ego? It's a great question. Because then I could answer. Yeah, yeah, describe the ego? It's a great question. Because then I could answer. Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. That's why I want to give you a very thoughtful answer.

I would say that the ego is any moment in which you create a false sense of security. So you're creating a false sense of being safe. As a person who's been arrogant blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because those are all ultimately, it's a false self of being safe. As opposed to being an arrogant blah, blah, blah, blah. Because those are all ultimately, it's a false self-defense mechanism. Yeah. So, for example, with my wife,

it's like if my wife tells me something that I know is blatantly true, my ego will even construct something where I'm like, oh yeah, but this happened before and this thing. And it's like I'm constructing a true, what I'm saying is true, it's factual, but I'm still using it just to defend my ego because I'm scared of just saying, like, you know.

That's your wrong. Oh, I do that all the time. So the wrong part's true, but like, yeah, where do you create a false sense of safety in your life or a false sense of security? I think trying to constantly save my mom emotionally to constantly save my mom emotionally and take on my family's emotions as my responsibility because without me doing that, they're not safe. Is like a really big crux of like my stress, you know, and it's not on them. It's on me. And it's really me not like, I'm not

allowing my mom to pull herself out of the hole unless I go down there with her. But that's really the opposite of empowering. It's like, I need to, I need to let go, but letting go, so scary, because if I feel like she's drowning, or if I feel like my brother's drowning, or my sister, or whoever I love is drowning, and I'm watching them drown, how am I supposed to not go in and save them? But the reality is sometimes they're just flapping their arms and their feet are on the ground. And it just looked like they were drowning. You know, but... Dude, that is a great answer.

Was it? That is a great answer. No, because you just... There was another definition as... When you asked me that question that came to my mind, it's... And whatever anyone's belief in God is. When I say the word God is like God universe, whatever you personally choose. But like the ego is when you choose to play God instead of play your part for God.

Wow. Right. Okay, so that was a good answer. And that's why it's a great answer. Because that is exactly what's happening. It's like you're saying it's all on me. Right. That's all on my D.

The Almighty, amippin' it. You use the word at the beginning. Like that's a God-like word, right? Like, well, you're like everything rests and depends on me, which means if I do it, I'm gonna save it. And if I'm not there, it's gonna fall apart. And that's ego, because like you just rightly said,

like, not only, you can love someone and let them still grow by themselves and still be there for them, but you can't grow for them. But when you wanna grow for someone instead of grow with them or help them grow. Yeah, and I think that that level of omnipotence and that level of control also influences lack of confidence

because by me being like, let me handle it really says, oh, so you think that if I handle it, you know, me being my mom, like, oh, you think if I handle it, don't let you help me rust that, like, I can't do it, you know, and I'm just like, yeah, kind of. Like, you know, but I need to, it's just really, it's coming back to that place of my role

and my identity, I always played the role of helping and being responsible emotionally for people and saving them and fixing things. And so it's just second nature. I get very hyper-vigilant when someone around me is upset because if you're upset, it's my fault. It's what it gets like coded as. And I'm trying to unlearn that, but that's tough.

Because like I said, I feel, or when I was a kid, the steak seemed so high, it felt like it was life or death if I don't help. What if someone's self-harms, et cetera? But now, when someone's upset, I still can't let go, and still be there for them, but not feel like I have to go down into the whole with them because I'm still operating from that child like role.

And I'm just working on understanding that, they're okay, they're gonna be okay. Like, no one's saying, like, cut them off and don't talk to anyone. But it's like, you don't need to go down into the whole with them. That's beautiful. Amen. The album Santiago like, you don't need to go down into the whole with them. Yeah. That's beautiful. And man, the album Santiago is inspired by Paulo Cuález Alcomis, which is a legend.

If you haven't heard of, I mean, you have to have heard of this book, everyone's listening. If you haven't, it's a legendary book by legendary author. When did you first come across the book? And why did you feel like you wanted to bring music into the book? So, Boogie is my best friend, put that book in my hand when I was probably 17, 18. I met him last time. Did you?

Yeah. Born with you last beautiful. Yeah, he's such a great dude. He's incredible. So he put like that book in my hand, and Napoleon Hill in my hand, you know. And crazy books to read at that age. And I was instantly like, it became like a Bible for me,

you know? And there was just so many parallels that I found. And I just, I've like, opened it back up or you know, a few times over the years. But for whatever reason, two years ago, summer of 2021, I decided to reread it. And you know how you can like read a book that you've already read, but you read it

at a different time in your life and all of a sudden different things stick out and it resonates deeper. And so it just felt, it just spoke to me so deeply than even before. And I was like, man, I want to make a whole album that gives like, that parallels the book with my story. But what ended up happening was, it was hard for me to just tell my story and not make an album about the alchemist.

And so that's why I ended up saying it was loosely inspired by the alchemist because at the inception it was truly like, it felt like I couldn't write about my life. I had to write about Santiago's, but then Palco Aeló says something and I think the forward where he says Santiago is my journey, but it'sco Aelo says something in, and I think the forward where he says, Santiago is my journey, but it's your journey because one man's journey is everyone's journey. And that was the unlock for me and the permission for me to like tell my story. And there is like parallels within the alchemist and my natural story, but it's not a complete side by side thing. It's just, It was a lighthouse for me, you know,

the wind and oasis. It was things that I related to, but I still had my own input on. But yeah, complete framework and lighthouse. And he's a genius. It's a beautiful home. It's a beautiful home. What did he say?

Yeah, he likes it. So it's like, that to me was like, this is insane. That's beautiful, man. What a beautiful home it's to like, you know, one of the great writers. I was nervous because I'm like, it was like, this is insane. That's beautiful, man. What a beautiful homage to like, you know, one of the great writers. I was nervous because I'm like, it was so, so insane. I start making this album summer 2021. He doesn't follow me on Twitter.

Randomly, like, right when I start to make it, he follows me on Twitter. You know, he follows like 160 people. And I was like, what are the odds that, like while I'm making this, but you know, if you read the alchemist, the signs and all these things, I'm like, all right. Clearly I'm supposed to be reading this.

Or unless he's got the room bug, like, I don't know what's going on. But I so I told, right when he followed me, I told him, I was like, yo, I'm actually making an album about like loosely inspired by the alchemist. And he was like, that's so great. Keep me posted. And he would like check in periodically, like, yo, how's it coming? And I wasn't following me anymore. I don't think it's personal, but.

So. I love it. I love it. You just, you took Santiago down a different path. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's beautiful, man. I love that. I love that.

If there's one song, Russ, you've been amazing. This has been such a, it's always great having you here. I've got two questions for you. One is, is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to talk about, because you're a friend and I have to honor you with that question. Is there anything we haven't dove into that? You're like, yeah, I want to talk about this.

Or even if it's quieter and you're like, it's on my heart right now, I need to say it. The floor is yours. No, I think honestly, I think we touched on everything. Yeah, and I'm really, really happy without this one. I appreciate you having me for real. Of course, man. I appreciate you.

I was looking, you can come back on whenever you want. Like, this is like, it's, I love conversations where they really are just like a back-in-forth. But like, that's all, I appreciate you. I was looking, you can come back on whenever you want. Like this is like, it's, I love conversations where they really are just like a back-in-forth. And like, that's how I feel with you. I'm just like, we can just talk about stuff and figure stuff out and not know the answer. And, you know, but if there's one, I'm gonna say my one, you can say yours,

what is the one track you want everyone to go stream after listening to this episode? Which one would you recommend? I love you, boy. I was going to say the same one. Yeah, I think it's so aligned with today's conversation, but the other ones that I recommend to, that we discussed today, fraud, really powerful, oasis, highly recommend to as well. And then of course, go listen to the whole album, Russ, you've been amazing to have back on.

Thank you. I appreciate you so much as a, as a human, as a artist. I don't know anyone who's made mental health and music seem that cool, as you have, which I love because it's my life's work, but seeing you do it in your way is so empowering. And I think there are a whole group of listeners that are gonna come up and just have different viewpoints

because of you. I hope so, man. Thank you. No, it's happened already. It's happened and it's happening. But thank you, man. I appreciate you being on allpoints because of you. So I hope so, man. Yeah, no, it's happened already. It's happened and it's happening. Yeah. But thank you, man. I appreciate you being on all of that.

Thank you. And listen, it's a testament to like, the reason why I always want to come back here is because the energy you have and like the barriers down vibe you have where there's no judgment and the depth you have, it was just such a no brainer for me to like, I always got to go back and sit with him because it's just such a like, even the energy in this room, it's just so

curious and like safe, you know. So thank you for sending me to you. Thank you for sending that, man. I appreciate it. Anytime. Anytime. And everyone who's been listening and watching wherever you are, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're driving, touring from work, or whether

you're at the gym, make sure you tag me and Russ in all your posts on TikTok, on Instagram. Let us know what resonated with you, what stuck out to you on Twitter, on threads. I love seeing the little clips. I love seeing how you're enjoying the podcast. It means the world to me. I know me a lot to Russ.

And tag us when you're streaming as well. Santiago, it's out right now. Thank you so much, everyone. If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking the power of manifestation. Anybody who hasn't spoken to their parents

or their brother, call them right now. Don't think you're gonna have a chance to call them tomorrow or next week. That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender and visible things we don't usually talk about? I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should.

The season I'm joined by Stellar, gas like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.