On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Ryan Holiday ON: How To Remain Calm When Others Panic & Practice Stillness Under High Stress Situations

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

Ryan Holiday begins his mornings with nature, his children and no phone. The author and widely-renowned expert on stillness and stoic ancient wisdom admitted to Jay Shetty that the power of presence teaches him more than any textbook ever could. Holiday has discovered that stillness is so much more than not moving and is committed to intentional living. Listen in as Shetty and Holiday unpack this deeply profound, yet simple principle that has the power to transform lives. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHort Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care. I am Jan LaVanzant and I'll be your host for The R Spot. Each week listeners will call me live to discuss their relationship issues. Nothing will tear a relationship down faster than two people with no vision. Does y'all are just flopping around like fish out of water?

Mommy, daddy, your ex, I'll be talking about those things and so much more. Check out the R-Spot on the iHeart Video app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. People think that the Stokes didn't have emotions. That's not what it is at all. Because the Stokes are human. Santa, there's like no amount of wisdom can eliminate our human impulses.

He's like, no amount of training can make you not blush. Yeah. Or not cold. Or not feel adrenaline. But what the stoic is striving to do is not be driven by those emotions when they make decisions. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every single week to listen, to learn,

and to grow. Now, you know that I'm a big reader. I absolutely love books and I love books that help expand our mind, help us learn new truths or old ones, and help us think differently. Now, today's guest is an author that I've been fascinated by his books for a long, long time, basically because of my fascination with stoicism, but also his way of making it accessible, relevant, and innovative for the modern world. I've interviewed him twice before this. We've been on some incredible walks in New York City as well, maybe a couple of those.

And today I'm glad to see an old friend and have him on the show. It's none other than Ryan Holiday. Now, for those of you that don't know Ryan, Ryan is one of the world's foremost thinkers and writers on ancient philosophy and it's place in everyday life. He's a sort of the speaker, strategist,

and the author of many best-selling books and some of my favorites, including the obstacle is the way, ego is the enemy, and the daily stoic. Today I'm excited to talk to him about how we can incorporate stillness into our lives and what it means to live a fulfilling life. Welcome to the show, Ryan Holiday.

Thanks for having me. I wish we could be walking. I know. You know, I've thought about that many times. Like, could you do a good interview walking? Yeah. And I think the audio police would be on my case. And it'd be like, Jay, the audio is going to be terrible.

No, it's going to be. You can't control the environment, which would be bad, but like it is ironic that I find sort of the most stillness in movement. So for me, I do all my phone calls walking. So if I had to do a phone call, someone I walk when we met in New York that time, we're like, why would we sit here? I like to go outside, you get moving,

and then weirdly, it slows the, I think it turns off parts of the mind, and then it focuses other parts of the mind. So somehow the body moving creates a kind of an inner stillness that I that I love. That's fascinating. What what does stillness mean to you? Like because that already is like you're not thinking about stillness in. It's not just it's just a gross form of stillness like a physical.

What is stillness to you? To me, it's when everything kind of slows down, when you eliminate what's extraneous, when you become sort of fully present in whatever it is that you're doing, and you have the ability to sort of direct your thoughts, direct your body, direct your sort of spirits and emotions, rather than kind of be directed by them.

So like what's interesting is I think think when you think about the really great people that you admire whether they're sort of spiritually great or athletically great or, you know, creatively great, I think what they all share is some kind of stillness. There's like, even if they're really active, there's something about them that is really deep, you know? And so the book and sort of what I've, where I've tried to go in my life more recently is like, how do you cultivate that? How do you create that?

How do you create space for that? Because I think it's where all the good stuff comes from. Yeah, absolutely. No, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, when you're talking about stonest, though, you're a dad too. Yeah. And I'm intrigued by how the process of stonest,

I'm not a dad here, so I'm asking as early coaching. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm married, so I, you know, hopefully it will happen at some point, but what's the latest adventure you went on with your son or where you see stonest in that relationship? So that's actually like every morning, we get up, my kids do not sleep well. So we get up early, I take them outside

and we go for a walk while my wife catches up on sleep. And so that walk is like a huge part of the routine for us. I think as I don't take a phone on it, so I'm not doing anything but that. And we're outside and we experience nature. We see things, they sing, we talk. And what's interesting to me is how much crazier the day is if we don't do that.

So it's not actually them being tired because they're not walking, I'm walking. But it somehow ripples through the day if we don't have that kind of centering experience. I think there's something too about like getting up early, that's really great, about getting outside, that's great. But you kind of realize that I think one of the weird things about being a parent is like, you think it's going to be doing all these activities, right? It's all that it's like you're doing, but it's actually it's just like the being there that is parenting. So it's like, oh, we're just going to play in the dirt for the next hour. And by we, I mean, like you're going to do it,

I just have to sit here and let you do that. And so it's kind of, it's kind of humbling because you think it's going to be this active thing that you're in charge of, but really it's much more about you sort of allowing and encouraging and participating and sort of protecting than it is, you know, planning and organizing. Yeah, absolutely. No, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And you talk there about how you're not trying to be distracted at the time.

Yes. And I know you've talked about like not using your phone for the first 30 minutes of the day. That's part of my thing. That's part of my thing. I started with 10 minutes and I worked my... It could be now, I might say, I wake up at 6. I might not touch my phone till 11 or 12. It's...

The point is, it's... It's not that the phone is bad and it's not even that the thing's inside the phone or bad. It's that I want to be in control rather than be controlled by the technology. So just the amount of people I know that it's like, what Donald Trump tweeted while they're sleeping is determining the caliber of their day or the quality of their day.

And it's like, let's say that's too politically charged. It's just like that email that came in while they were sleeping, they didn't actually need to see until later, until they do. So for me, it's like, because I write, it's about protecting the space to do the writing. So that's like, I want to go for the walk, I want to do the journaling, I want to get in the right headspace, and then I want to go into the writing. What I don't want is some email from my accountant or email from my publisher or email from random hater who I don't even know how they got my email. I don't want that to get in my head and be like, actually know all the work, all the preparation, all the things you should be thinking

about. That's out the window because so and so messed up or so and so said you're an asshole or whatever it is. You have to protect that space and look, it'd be wonderful if you could get to a place where nothing that anyone said had an impact on you, you could tune it out. This is not the reality. So I'd rather create an environment that allows me

to be focused. Yeah, I'm 100% with you and that's amazing that you've been able to do it from, because I wake up around 6'2 and I've trained myself to not look at my phone till about 8'15 when I go to the gym. But those two and a half hours is really great. Yeah, it's a great time. That's like when I'm meditating, it's when I'm doing gratitude, it's when I'm 8'15s when I go to the gym. So it's like only on my walk down to the gym. But I found that whenever I break that rule, and of course I still have days where I work that rule,

and I'll wake up and I wake up a bit late, and I look at my phone at like say seven. Yeah. It's like I could waste two hours totally being reactive in bed. And now it's like my meditation is gonna happen later. My exercise routine may not happen that day and and the the amount of time it consumes as well and it doesn't just have to be bad things right I remember I was I was in LA when

Stillness came out and so the way it works is in your experiences So your book comes out and then there's a week on sale and then basically like they're tallying the sales on Monday in Tuesday and then Wednesday you get the numbers and that's when you find outing the sales on Monday and Tuesday. And then Wednesday you get the numbers and that's when you find out about the New York Times list. And congrats. Thank you. But this is that story, right?

So I woke up because I was traveling, I couldn't use like, there was no alarm clock. So I had to use my phone as the alarm clock. So it makes it harder to not check your phone when it's literally you have to turn it off to wake up And so like I you know, I woke up at the normal time and my plan was to go swimming But I could see a bunch of text messages from my agent and from my publisher That were you know like sitting on the home screen and so it was like okay the rules you don't use the phone

It from what I knew it was it was heading in the right direction. So it's probably good news, right? But I had to sort of consciously go like, actually, no, I want to exist for the next hour or two hours of the workout and the journaling and the writing I want to do for the day, as if that reality, like apart from that reality,

in a universe where there's like, Schrodinger's cat, like where you don't know if it's a live or dead, you don't know if the news is good or bad, like I just want to exist for two hours more not knowing either way. And so it was like, I'm not gonna check it, I'm gonna go do the thing because,

as soon as I got the good news, and it was great news that we debuted at number one, we saw more copies than we thought, but it was like in a weird way that day was shot, even if it had been, it was shot just as much as it being good as it would have been. It was bad because you're like celebrating or excited. You wanna know this or that.

And like, I don't, the whole point is that you don't wake up and be reactive. You should wake up and be intentional and do what it is that you wanna do for the day. Then once that's over, I'm fine to be reactive from noon to five. You know what I mean? Once I've gotten the important thing done,

fine to be reactive, but I don't wanna be reactive if it comes at the expense of the daily practices that I have. To me, that's what stillness is actually about. Yeah, and that's the benefit, right? Because a lot of people may listen to that and be like, well, Ryan, that means you just don't wanna celebrate and you can't be happy for yourself.

Yeah. What's your issue with just having a moment, it works so hard, but actually what you're saying is the benefit is you can be happy after, but you still want to create that space in your mind where you get to exist, be intentional, and basically train your mind out of being reactive, because whether your mind is being reactively good

or reactively bad, you're still training your mind to be reactive. Yeah, it's like, in a way, it's like people like, okay, I'm not going gonna read the comments on my video because they're negative for what, right? We get why that's bad. But then what will happen also is like, you post something and it blows up.

You can waste a whole day refreshing, just like, just mainlining the ego. And, and like, sure, there's some days where you should do that or, you know, like, you do that every once in a while, it's not like the worst thing in the world. It's like having a soda or something. But you realize you could lose a whole day and and so it's like wait the the reward for my success

in this instance is that I'm not doing the thing that I actually love doing. Like I didn't become a writer so I can refresh things you know. I didn't become a writer so I can refresh things. I didn't become a writer so I could count the likes or the comments. I became a writer because I genuinely enjoy writing. And so I actually, you want to see anything that deprives you of the chance to do that as, like I think it's like Bob Dylan didn't want to go except his Nobel Prize thing.

It's like, yeah, I totally get that. It's not that he doesn't want it. It's that it's like he doesn't want to fly and waste a whole day doing something that he didn't try to get in the first place. Like, that's the highest level of doing it and probably more disciplined than I have. But like, I think early in your career,

you think like doing interviews is gonna be awesome. Getting attention is gonna be awesome. You know, like seeing yourself hit number one is gonna be awesome. And then if you actually get to the right place about it, you see those things as like distractions from what you actually wanna be doing. That's powerful.

That's powerful using the word distraction from what you wanna be doing. I read this thing, this like sort of obituary of Kobe Bryant and they were saying like, this ESPN reporter was saying, like, two weeks, two or three weeks before he died, she had texted him to say, like, hey, I wanna interview you for this story.

And like on the one hand, yeah, the reason you wanna become the world's best at whatever it is you do is to be interviewed. You wanna see yourself on ESPN, and he has shooty-holes and social media followers and things that would benefit from being in the media. And his response was like, he texted her back, he's like, can't, my girls are keep me busy, like hit me up some other time.

And first off, the discipline that takes normally is incredible, but I'm so touched by the idea that like he didn't know how much time he had left. And so, and he didn't, he doesn't control that, right? Like he doesn't control the fact that he's about to be deprived of years of life. But he does control whether he's gonna waste 15 minutes or not. And he shows in that moment to not waste it. And he gave that time to the people that he loved.

And I'm so touched by that. To me, that's his final performance, right? And so I try to think about that always. And I thought about it for a long time, but I'm always looking for examples of that powerful no or that ability. I called Robert Green this morning, it was been sort of my mentor for a long time. And I was like, Robert, I'm like driving by your house on my way to this thing,

do I'm gonna step by and say hello? And he was like, I'm doing my work right now. Let's see each other later. I'm like, like, you could be insulted by that, but actually I was like, I was like, oh my God, this is how, this is what it takes to be great. Do you know what I mean? And like, so in a weird way, I was,

not only was I not hurt, I was like, that's, that's professionalism. Do you know what I mean? But it's easier to say yes. It's easier to be like, oh, come over. Like, oh, turn on the TV or, oh, you know, whatever. It's easy to say yes. It's hard to say no.

Yeah, absolutely. There was another interview, remind me of that, with Kobe Bryant. And I think it was one of his last interviews as well. I can't remember what channel it was on, but he was asked, like, to describe with one word a few things in his life. And so they asked him, like, basketball, he says love and L.A. and he says home. And then they asked him, uh, retirement. Yeah. And he says peace. Ooh. And, you know and then they ask him retirement. Yeah. And he says, peace.

Ooh. And, you know, it's an amazing thing. And I was fortunate after interview, Kobe, Brian, last year. And even when you were with him, he was in such a peaceful, happy space in retirement, which for most athletes, it's the opposite, right? It's like full of anxieties. So you're trying to figure out your identity again and who you are and your ego and everything. Whereas for him, he was just totally like happy

storytelling and writing and like funnily enough like in this storytelling world. Yeah. And I'm I like basketball. I don't know everything about it. So we ended up talking for an hour about storytelling. Right. Because that's what he was doing now. And he was so satisfied with that being his purpose. Yeah. And anyway, when someone says peace in retirement, you're like, wow, like that, you know, it stillness is the key.

No, no, that's like, wow, there's so much. You wish everyone could have that. And I think the other thing, you might go like, okay, how many years of not peace for how many years of peace? But that it's actually like what the, what the sort of philosophers would say, East and West is like, one minute of it is everything. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you could experience it

for one minute, you'd experience it for eternity, you know? And so to get there at 40 is impressive, to get there at all is impressive. And I think the sort of stoke practice of momentum where actually a momentum-mortee ring every day. You give me the coin. I have an outfit on the day. Oh, you do. So I started wearing this ring too because I want to touch it always.

But yeah, the idea of death looming over all of it should put some urgency on it. Not like, oh, I have to. Like, people go, oh yeah, when I retire, when I'm 60, I'll get to do that. But like, you, I have to. Like, people go, oh, yeah, when I retire, when I'm 60, I'll get to do that. But like, you get hit by a bus, you know, your helicopter could crash, like, cancer, you know, like, you're the idea that death is death should be this sort of urgent thing, reminding you not to take the future for granted. And that you got to be working towards that stillness or that piece or that focus or don't defer the work that you have to do because like you don't know you're going to

get to come back to it. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean with all of these teachings like obviously Storicism has been something that you've been helping all of us understand and I love it. I absolutely love it. But from that which of the teachings in this book has kind of like, was there a teaching that almost surprised you or took you longer to wrap your head around as you've been writing all these books, like that's kind of come to the fore in this one?

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, something you didn't believe in straight away, but kind of like, you know. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, one of the things I struggled with a little bit more in the book that I wanted to tackle things that made me uncomfortable. And so, I've probably been an atheist since, I don't know, high school, late high school.

On high, I'm not sure. Yeah, and so, and I knew that chapter would be controversial and like, like, I knew of pissed people off and it did piss people off. Like, I was looking at the other day. Like, the first review on Amazon is some person who was like triggered by the fact that I was talking about this thing. And what I'm interested in is like things that are working for people, right?

And it's like, it's hard not to look back at history and not see that pretty much everyone believed in some kind of like, like, like, atheism is the exception, not the rule. And I was in Budapest a couple of months ago, and I was walking by this church, and they were through some of my classical music concert, and I hate classical music, but I had like, and I just went in and I sat and I watched this, like this sort of classical concert, they were singing in Latin, in a Catholic, like a 500-year-old Catholic church or something. And the acoustics were perfect.

Like, I understood none of it, but I was just like this experience, like this experience is what people have been having for thousands of years. Like, what is it that's working for them? Why am I closing myself off to it? So I'm still on that path, I think, but I've certainly moved from like atheist,

which is like, well, you know there's no God to agnostic, which is like, I don't know. And sort of an openness to larger experiences. So I think, again, I think the theme in my book is like, what is smarter, wiser people than me a long time ago figured out? And let me try to articulate that in a modern context. And so that was certainly a big one for me. Yeah. No, I love that. And I just love how open you are because I've always said that to people. I'm like, with any belief, it's like, if someone was able to present to me a better, stronger

case for a new set of beliefs that are timeless and universal in application, I would adopt them. You should. You should. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As a genuine seeker of what works, what is fascinating, and what actually has an impact versus a fad or a trend that may not have that longevity.

Well, one of my favorite quotes from Epictetus is, it's impossible to learn that, which you think you already know. And so, actually, I feel like on the path towards wisdom of learning, you shouldn't be coming more certain in your beliefs. You should actually become less certain and more open. Right? And so, I think it was sort of realizing, oh, this atheism is because I read a Richard Dawkins book when I was 19,

which was great. And I'm glad I read it because it made me question things I'd accepted as a child, but that if I'm just stuck there, I'm not getting better, I'm not learning, and I'm no better than people I might be criticizing for their own, you know, not fought out police. And so, like, I think one of the things I've experienced

is I've gotten older as I've read more as I've become successful is like, is just a kind of an openness and a, like, less rigidity in my beliefs. And I think that's a theme in the Stoics is just this idea of like, yeah, someone can prove that you might be wrong about something or get you to consider some question that you previously thought you had the answer to. They're doing you a huge

favor. You know, even if they're knocking down a whole structure that you've been living your life, they're doing you a favor because like that was built on unsteady ground. Yeah. And so yeah, like seeking that out, embracing it, appreciating it, not presenting it, not reacting against it has been, I think that's an important practice. I'm Jay Shetty, and on my podcast, on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of

the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oh, pro. Everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant. The results don't really matter. It's the figuring out that matters. Kevin Haw.

It's not about us as a generation at this point. It's about us trying our best to create change. Lumin's Hamilton. That's for me being taken that moment for yourself each day, being kind to yourself, because I think for a long time, I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity

to learn. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw, real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on-purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon.

Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh wow, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao, the tree that gives us chocolate. But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen, or tasted. I've never wanted us to have a gun, but you saw this tax of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate.

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And we've heard all sorts of things that, you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all this for a damn bar of chocolate. Listen to obsessions, wild chocolate, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Debbie Brown and my podcast deeply well is a soft place to land on your wellness journey. I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your journey. From guided meditations to deep conversations with some of the world's most gifted experts in self-care, trauma, psychology, spirituality, astrology, and even intimacy. Here is where you'll pick up the tools to live as your highest self. Make better choices. Heal and have more joy. My work is rooted in advanced meditation, metaphysics, spiritual psychology, energy healing, and trauma-informed practices.

I believe that the more we heal and grow within ourselves, the more place to land to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well is available now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Big love. Namaste. Yeah, I agree. That's beautifully said. Do you think it's enough? What I find fascinating about all of this is when you're an early, whether it's an early atheist, theist, early adopter of a new diet or whatever it is, we developed this sort of like ego around being this evangelical ambassador of it. And you're like putting everyone in a place, trying to school everyone.

Is that coming from what would be the stoic or the wisdom answer from? Because for me, it's like, it's almost like a protective mechanism. Yeah. It's like, what you're saying to others is what you want to say to yourself. Sure. So it's like, if I've just started waking up at 6am, I'm now the biggest proponent of like, yeah, yeah. You wake up at 7, like, oh, you're slacking, right? Yeah, yeah. You don't wake up to 6.30 or if someone works 4. You're like, oh no, that's too early. You become this false ambassador.

Tell me a bit about your thought pressing around that ego of that. Yeah, yeah, it's like a projection. You're so insecure about it. You gotta convince other people about it. So then you're, yeah. No, and I think as a public figure, if someone writes, you're definitely more prone to that. When I look back at my early writing,

the one thing that invariably makes me cringe is like how certain I was about stuff that I'd like literally just learned about, you know? Like is that like I'd known this to be true for 30 years and then I was writing about it? It was like literally like I'd heard about this like the day before and that's the stuff that never age as well.

Yeah. I heard this great expression like it ages like milk, you know? That's so, yeah. That's so bad. Yeah, right. That's so bad. And like one of the weird things like when I look at obstacle ego and stillness is like okay, obstacle is like 50,000 words.

Egos like 55 and let's say stillness is 60 or something like that. And and I was like are these books getting longer because like I'm just more full of myself or actually know it's like now when I read back, obstacle I think one of the reasons it works is that I'm saying things very emphatically, very clearly, but also with no nuance. And as I've gotten older as I've experienced more,

it's like it's more complicated than that. And so actually it's like as I've gotten, as I've experienced more, it's like, it's more complicated than that. And so actually, it's like, as I've gotten, as I've gone out on my career, I'm less comfortable saying things in black and white terms. I want to, it's not that I'm hedging, but that I'm just not going to say that this is, I'm not going to say this with noocation, because you can't actually know that. And that, again, emails I've gotten are things that are, it's like, oh, you know what, I may have,

I didn't consider what it's like to be, a single mom with three kids, and that maybe it's not, it's easy for them to get up at 6 a.m. or whatever it is. You just realize that you're being flipped because your experience is limited. And so I think as I've gone on and gotten older, negative capability, it's from teats, I think.

And it's the idea that genius or real intelligence is the ability to hold opposing ideas in your head at the same time. That you don't actually have to simplify things down, you don't have to make them black and white. You can embrace like paradoxes, right? Like people will go like, oh, you know, in this chapter you're saying this,

but over here you're saying this, that's a contradiction. It's like, welcome to the universe where sometimes you have to do this. Yeah. And sometimes the opposite is what's called for. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. In my book, you reminded me of something for me.

It's like, I talk about the need for routine and spontaneity. Totally. And it's like, in one sense, and I remember tackling it when I was writing, because I was like, oh wait a minute, and I'm like, no, but I believe in both. Yeah.

And I believe one leads to the other. Yes. And I believe that there is a space for both. And I, I mean, encouraging people in my own way to embrace polarities more. Yeah. Because I feel like we always like, what is the one way to show this?

And I'm like, well, sometimes I can be affectionate, but sometimes you gotta be assertive, and sometimes you gotta be this. And that is like, you don't have to be every one thing all of the time. Yeah, I think I talked about this in obstacle, like Arthur Ash, his sort of motto was like, physically, tight, mentally, loose.

And so it's like, it's not a contradiction. Actually, no, they fuel and feed each other. And the world is complicated. I think that's definitely something that the Eastern philosophers get better is that they're sort of embracing paradoxes and nonsensical sayings and like, like you're supposed to go, you're supposed to sit with that. And maybe even get comfortable with the fact that it is irresolvable. Maybe that's the lesson, whereas people are like,

no, because invariably, and interviews people go like, oh, and what is the five step framework for overcoming obstacles? And it was like, there isn't one. There's no obstacles the same. And no person is the same. I think what there are are fundamental principles or ideas that if you equip yourself with, it will become clear which to use in which situation.

But people want, they want like a roadmap. There is no roadmap. No, exactly. When you were writing the book, was there anything, was there most, what was the most intriguing way someone finds stillness that you've experienced, even if not in the book, was there anything, was there most, what was the most intriguing way someone finds stillness that you've experienced, even if not in the book, but people you've spoken to, like something that you were like, whoa, I didn't like someone, you know, skydiving

or like whatever, like how does that give stillness? So I'm fascinated with Churchill and Churchill wrote a book called Painting as a Pastime. And I was like, what, why would, first off, I don't think people think of Churchill as a writer, but that's how he made his living. And you don't think like Prime Minister, the guy that stands up to the Nazis, you're like, and he must have loved water colors. Or I think he was more oil paints. But the point is, like, he has this nervous breakdown after the second, after the First World War, and his sister-in-law gives him her children's paint set and says,

like, hey, this might help you relax. And he'd always been ambitious, always had an insane work ethic, always been busy. And this was the first time where he was doing something only for its unsafe. And I was just in London, and I went straight from Heathrow to Chartwell before my meeting because I wanted to go see his painting studio and you're like, oh, this is what kept this guy sane amidst incredible stress, fear, anxiety, responsibility, you know, people not doing what they're supposed to do. Like he would paint. And so he would talk about he was like the most important thing that a powerful person can have. He said, is like one or two hobbies. He's like, what are your hobbies? And for him, it was painting and writing was sort of one of them.

And it was, so he had this, you know, a state in the country side. It was like, it was the opposite of his work basically, right? And you have to have that. The Prime Minister, a generation or two before a William Gladstone was like, he had this big property, he would just go out and chop down trees. Like he just liked chopping down trees with an axe.

And like, I live on a small farm outside Texas and people, isn't that a lot of work? And it's like, it is, but it's the opposite of my actual work. And so it's actually very restorative. And so I think the power of hobbies is like by the thing I was most excited to write about. Yeah, and also sometimes the power of like,

I feel like simple, quote unquote, mundane tasks. Like the, I remember, you know, when I lived as a monk, like we did so many mundane tasks, like cleaning or potwashing or taking care of the farms or cows or whatever it was. And it was like, a lot of me coming from London and being educated and all the rest of it was just like, this is such a waste of time.

I should be reading or studying or teaching or changing the world. I've always been like that. But then I started to, and I was forced to do it because they saw value in it. It wasn't just like we need someone to clean stuff. It was like, no, there's value in it for you. Right, there's a Gazette story. I tell on the book, I'm forgetting who it was,

but these two students go to the Zen Master, they visit him on his farm, and they're like, will you please show us the way of Zen? And he's like, yes, of course, will you just open the farm for me this morning? Like do all the farm chores. So they sort of muck the stables and they milk the cows or they let the animals out.

They just go through this whole process. As the sun is coming up and they're going through it and they come back and they say, like, master, we've opened the farm. What is Zen? And he just goes, that manual labor, that experience being outside, experiencing nature, watching the sun come up,

that is it. And that's that idea of like chopwood, carry water. Like just do the thing. One foot in front of the other, follow the steps. Don't try to make this into something just appreciate it for what it is. It's really great. Like yeah, fixing fences on my farm,

going out to feed the cows, going out of walk, just watching the animals. That is the experience. And it's so the opposite of sitting at your computer answering emails that it's really, even if it's stressful, even if it's hard work, even if it's exhausting, it restores the mind in a different way. That maybe it's like, if I just went and sat, all my mind might be doing is thinking about those things that I left at the computer, whereas when I'm doing the task, it forces you to become so present and lose,

and you can't think about anything else. Being in the, now that you mentioned presence, being present is, you know, we've heard it a lot, people have talked about a lot, the power of now. I mean, it's in all the stoic and Vedic texts too, like of being in the moment. Like, what's your favorite way of being present? Or what is your favorite way of explaining to people

what that genuinely means? Or what it means to you? Yeah. I was talking about Robert earlier. When I was thinking about becoming a writer, I had this sort of like, you're left on a, basically, I had to stay in American peril for another year. I remember that.

And he was like, so he's like, there's two kinds of time in life. There's like a lifetime and dead time. Dead time is when you're like, checked out. Here's waiting for things to happen. You know, just like burning the days basically. And he's like is when you're like, check it out, here's waiting for things to happen, you're just like burning the days basically. And he's like, a live time is like,

what will you make of this, right? And so for me, I was, I was, I actually wrote, I have a note card on my wall that I wrote, you know, seven or eight years ago now that just says, a live time versus dead time, a question mark. And I think about that, like what I'm, what I'm thinking about is like,

is this gonna be a live time or dead time for me? So like, yeah, yesterday I'm flying here, the plane's delayed, I've got a dinner that like, you know, tight window, I gotta get my rental car, drive, go to the dinner, don't wanna be late, like LA traffic, and you can spy or really quickly, like, after this, this got it. And then what you're doing is not sitting in the chair

that you're in, reading a book or FaceTiming with someone that you like or just not doing anything. What you're not doing is being where you are. And so I try to always come back to the present when I try to remind myself is like this moment is enough. You don't actually have to be able to do anything to do with your mind or yourself, it's like this moment is enough. You don't actually have to be doing anything else.

You don't have to go to that thing later. You don't have to be on time. You just have to be here. It's not something you intellectually know and then automatically do. It actually has to be kind of like a mantra in your life that you're repeating all the time. That's why I have it on my wall too. But you know, because it's so easy to forget.

So easy to forget. And the funny thing is, it actually drains so much energy when you live in the future. Totally. If you're constantly planning or like, what I've got to do next, or if I'm doing this podcast and thinking about all the things I have to do now, which I've not been thinking about until this point, when I'm thinking about it, and I just looked at all the slips I'm signing from podcast and thinking about all the things I have to do now, which I've not been thinking about until this point where now I'm thinking about it, and I just looked at all the slips I'm signing from my book right now, the stack in the pages.

That's great. Yeah, there's the inserts. And so it's like, now that I just looked at that, and when I start thinking about it, well, I've started on a anxious because I know how many I'd have to get through, as opposed to when I was just sitting here and being present.

Totally. And then what I remind myself is that it's arrogant. Like doing an interview is hard. Writing a book is really hard. Driving is hard. Hitting a pitch and major league baseball is hard. The idea that you are so good at this, that you can do it while not 100% being focused,

I just remember, like that is arrogant. Like it is too, like you are competing, like I said to myself, like you're competing against the best writers in the world and you're competing against that kid, man or woman who wants to break in more than anything. The idea that you're so good and that people love you so much that you can do this with only 37% focus is arrogant and that's when you lose. That is a great

point. I love that point. That is brilliant. Wow. Never looked at it like that. Yeah. No, it's fun. I get it. Like in baseball, you have 400 milliseconds to decide and swing at a pitch. The idea that you can be thinking about your last one or your next one in that moment is insane, right? It's insane, yeah. Like I think, now we ask this question because we're so politically charged, we ask they would go like,

if you win, are you gonna go to the White House? Are you gonna accept it? And it's like, you should not be thinking about that at all. You should not even have, it should not even be a question. Like cross that bridge when you come to it. Think about the fact that you're in the Super Bowl tomorrow. And the other team wants it really bad too. So the idea that you can spend one millisecond,

not focusing, is nuts. That's brilliant. I love that. I'm never going to forget that. That's awesome. No, no, that's such a unique point of view. And yeah, I love that. That's brilliant.

And then I think it's not just personal success, right? Because I think what you talk about a lot, it's like, how do you apply this thing as to relationship? Like the idea that like your wife is loves you so much that you can only be 80% present, you know, or that your kid is, your kid can do with 32% of a father.

Like, you know, it's like you promised to be there. And the idea that you can do this and be on your phone or you can do this and be mulling over your meeting tomorrow or whatever, like you're stealing that from someone. Yeah. Now, when you talk about focusing that way, though, I feel like I feel like stillness and silence and all these kind of like, they're so rare now. Yeah, sure. And so we're almost scared of them. Like we're scared of what's rare. Yeah, of course. And we get scared of things that we don't do often.

And so like, when people talk about like, when you have an awkward silence, like, there are no silences in this conversation because it's genuinely back and forth. But if I didn't know what to say, I would be silent. But if you did that in a date scenario, if you did that in a interview, like, I remember, yeah, you've just

spotted when I was interviewing for a role in my company, I was interviewing people and none of them would stop to think. Yeah. Because I think they expected to have an answer straight away and I had one person who would stop and say, can I think about that for a moment? Yeah. That's always so impressive. Yeah. And I was so impressed. I hired that person. And when I hired them, I was so scared because I thought two things, either they're really stupid, or they're really smart.

And thankfully, they ended up being really smart. Right. But it was like that point of just like, we're so scared of stillness and silence. What have you, have you seen that? Have you noticed that? And like, yeah, yeah.

I think we're afraid of what the silence is going to reveal. Like, I think we're afraid to look in the mirror. So we distract ourselves. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, we know that the silence will reveal the emptiness, right? And so that's why we're always doing, doing, doing talking, talking, talking. Listen, like the amount of people I know that it's like, they're listening to audio books, like tweeting, watch it, like just like can you just sit there? Like sometimes I'll remind my, oh yeah, I'll get

somewhere early and I'm just gonna sit here. Like I'm not gonna do anything, I'm just gonna sit here. And actually, yeah, like that the nothing is the something is hard for people to do. You just realize people are like, now if I turn my mind off for two seconds, I might realize that I hate my job or that this relationship is over and I gotta leave it. Or we're afraid of the truth that we're afraid of the truths

that we're gonna find out. And so that's why people are glued to the television, glued to their phone, glued to consuming, consuming, consuming, so they don't have to create, they don't have to face, they don't have to think. And that is, I think, yeah, that's the problem of our time. Yeah, and that's the mistake, too, because it numbs us from the reality that we're experiencing. Yeah. And then, five, 10, 15 years down the line, you're now like, oh, I should have known this before.

Well, I talk a little bit in the book about the Cuban Missile Crisis. That happens over 13 days. Just the idea of allowing that to happen over 13 days, now it would be like, I've got a tweet out of response like right now. You know, like just the idea of letting something unfold, going like, I'm not sure I have all the information. You know, like Kennedy's expression is like, I wanna use time as a tool, but not as a couch.

So you're not like, it's not silence, it's not retreating, it's not thinking because you're afraid of facing it. It's that you're like, no, I'm gonna deal with this, but I don't wanna deal with it like half cocked or only partially informed. And so having the discipline, but also the confidence to do that is really important.

And I think, so I think at the end of the day, a lot of these emotional reactions, a lot of these instantaneous reactions, a lot of the chatter is rooted in like, insecurity and fear and anxiety and actually the more... Like, if you walked into a martial arts studio right now, the highest ranked person would be the slowest moving, the most chill, the most welcoming, you know, and it's like the newbie who's like all wired and aggressive and, you

know, and so I think ideally as you get better, you should be getting more chill. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's time as a tool, not as a couch. That's genius. Yeah, that's brilliant. That makes so much sense because most of us use time as a couch when we're scared of something. Yeah. We're like, I'm not going to think it or I'm not gonna talk about it for like days sometimes or procrastinating or overthinking. Yeah, and we're not using time as a tool either. So we're like, I have everything I need to know. I'm ready to go.

But it's like actually, did you really study this? Did you ask for all the advice that you can? Did you walk through what could go wrong? Did you get information from people who disagree with you? Have you actually done that? I would say most of the conflicts I've gotten in are professionally, creatively. Most of the, it came from me rushing in.

I'm thinkingly escalated or, you know, pushed ahead when like, maybe I could have ignored it. Or maybe I could have slept on it. Or maybe I could have written the email, deleted it and rewritten the email. You know, like Lincoln was famous, he would write these letters. Like, you know, someone would piss him off

and he'd write this like, you're just light them up. And then he'd put it in piss him off and we're doing it. He'd write this like, you're the, he would just light them up, and then he'd put it in his desk and he'd never send it. And just that idea of like, okay, I'm gonna say what I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna wait before I send it. And just not doing it out of anger. People think that the Stokes didn't have emotions.

That's not what it is at all, because the Stokes are human. The Stokes didn't have emotions. That's not what it is at all, because the Stokes are human. The Stokes are like, no amount of wisdom can reduce, can eliminate our human impulses. He's like, no amount of training can make you not blush, or not cold, or not feel adrenaline. But what the Stokes is striving to do is not be driven by those emotions when they make decisions.

So it's not that you wouldn't lust after something. It's like, are you going to blow up your life for five minutes with a stranger? Right? It's not, should you strive to be the best in your sport or in your field, but it's, are you gonna do it because you love it, not because you're trying to prove your dad wrong? Or, you know, like, just doing it from a place that's not, the stillyx, now we're talking, I said, find your passion. The stillyx were like, passions are bad.

You know, passions are like these demons that possess us and they say, we're not doing that. What I found in most of our emotions, because a lot of people would be like, oh, and if I meditate, do I get rid of stress completely? And I was just like, one of our teachers, like thousands of years ago, there's a teacher named Yamuna Chari,

and he would talk about, he was a renunciate. So he would, and he was free from sex life. So, you know, and his risk, he would always say, like, I have a, it's not that I never have a thought of sex or lust. He was just that I have my response to it, and his response is now shortening the time of how long he entertains that feeling.

Yeah, I think your frangles, like, there's stimulus and there's response. And what you're trying to train is that space between those two. And I think early on, there's no space, it's like this. And you're just trying to, if you can add a half second, do you know what I mean? To just even, like, to just even be like,

no, I'm not gonna do that. Totally. Or I'm gonna do it this way instead. Or maybe I'll do tomorrow. Like, you write the letter, but do you have to send you write the letter because you're so angry, you're going to go do, but do you have the control an hour later not to put in the mail? Yeah. That's my, my thing with that is I'm always just like, I need to sleep on stuff. Yes. I need to take the day, think about it, stretch that moment out.

Totally. Because yeah, your initial reaction is usually fueled by ego or, you know, if you're responding to something or reacting to something. Yeah. And I see that myself all the time, but you have to give yourself that space to allow you eager to feel it, give yourself that space to feel the fear if that's what it is. Yeah. And then yeah, I love that.

I love that. And today we're just in this send culture, right? That's the challenge. You don't even think about sending a million messages a day. Yeah, and Sena Kits point is like, look, it's okay to be afraid, it's okay to grieve when you lose someone. But it's like a year later, if you're still crippled

by that thing, you got to do some work to walk through to, so it's like, I think Miss Cimta Lab was, it's not about the elimination of emotions, it's about the domestication of them. A dog is the same as a wolf, but it's been trained and some of those things have been bred out of them to a level that allows them to function in society.

But there's still a little bit of that wild animal in there. You gotta keep it on the chain. Yeah, I love that. Let's dive into it. We've been talking about for all of you who are listening and watching a Loving Discoversation. Stillness is the key by Ryan Holliday. It's already number one New York Times best seller.

So make sure you go grab the book. But there were a few pages that I just turned in. I remember we did this for the Daily Star Lake too. The best things about Ryan's book is they're just, he's a great storyteller. The stories are unique, fresh. I've never heard any of their stories about Churchill and was it Gladstone?

Yeah. Yeah, that I ever before. And so, yeah, he's a great storyteller. But this one that I picked at, you can either tell the story or people can read it in the book. But it's the story you tell from the Let Go chapter. It kicks off the Let Go chapter

and you talk about the story that Kenzo once told of his student. Yeah, if people haven't read the Zen in the art of art tree, it's incredible. But like, you know, he's talking about how when he would train his students, he was like, don't even think about hitting the target. Just think about form, right? Like, get lost in the form, get lost in the process. And that's actually something I kind of try to focus on my books is like, okay, whenever, and I know you have a book coming out, so that we can talk about this a little bit. Whenever I hear someone have a sales goal for their book,

I'm like, you're lost. You know, like you, you've already thought about this the wrong way, because at the very best, your goal should be to sell in a limited, like the idea that you're like a million copies is success means you've like, because what if you sell zero copies, but you change the world? What if you sell 10 million copies and then it's disproved? You know, like, it's not about that.

It's not about the end state. It's about the process, right? It's about, it's about the impact. It's about doing it right because that's all that you control. And so we think that it's all about goals. And certainly, there are people who would be improved by having goals, because they lead an aimless life. But actually, for a really ambitious talented people,

it's actually about removing goals, because those are outcome oriented and focusing internally on process and form and presence, especially with something like archery, where archery is kind of like golf, where like the harder you try, the worse you do at it, because you've, instead of being present, you're thinking about all these other things. And so, yeah, he would like, he'd be like, bad shot, forget it. Good shot, definitely forget. Yeah. Like, the form, the form, the form, and it's smooth and slow and and and and effortlessness.

That's actually what you're trying to get to. And I think writing is like that music is like that. Acting is like the harder you're trying to be to. And I think writing is like that music is like that. Acting is like the harder you're trying to be a good actor, the worse of an actor you are. Yeah, yeah, you have to get lost in it. Yeah, totally. And that was, I've recently started, I got a tennis coach recently.

Yeah, tennis is also, yeah. So tennis was something that I used to play a lot as a kid and a teenager, but never was trained. And I picked it up and I'm competitive so I could play. But then when I went to get trained, I was like, no, I want to do it properly. So I was like, I don't want to pretend I can play. And so we've trained now for the last four weekends. We have not played a game of tennis yet.

So he's just getting my form right. And it's the same. He actually doesn't care where the ball ends up on the other side. It's just all about my form and the swing. And we're doing back hands and forehands and and it's so beautiful. Like it's actually such a fun way of learning. Yeah. But I can imagine if I was taught that as a kid, I would have been like, I just want to

play the game. Right. No, there's a famous story about Lamberti and he walks in and he's like, this is the green Bay Packer. So obviously they're all great football players and he opens the season with like, gentlemen, this is a football. You know, like he starts at so the basic level, but it's like that's actually where we need to focus.

Tell you is, we have all this stuff in our head. And if you're running down the field, think where's my route, what should I be doing? What did Coach say, you are doing it the wrong way. You gotta get actually out of that and into your body, and into the process, and into the form. Yeah. The time when I really felt that was a couple of years ago, two, three years ago, I tested like seven different business strategies. Okay. So seven different businesses, ideas,

concepts, revenue streams, whatever you want to call it. And the interesting was that all seven of them worked financially, but I only enjoyed four of them in the process. Yeah, sure. So financially, all seven worked. They all reaped rewards, they all made money, but actually only four of them actually made me feel happy when I was doing this. Sure.

And so I remember going, I am never doing those other three things ever again. And that might seem like a basic decision, but most people do the exact opposite. They're like, which of the seven made the most money? That's the right one to do. Yeah, but I know that. And I still say, now, like, the biggest satisfaction for me today is I get to wake up and do what I love every day.

Like to me, that's just like, sure. It's life changing. And, you know, I work with and coach, and I'm sure you do too. So many people who literally will come to me and be like, I just built this billion dollar business in 12 years, but I wasted 12 years in my life where I didn't enjoy it. One of the things that was really helpful to me, because I built this company where we work with authors

and do ghost writing and help build sort of the stuff we're talking about for people. And I kept noticing over and over again that the people that were coming to me had like built, yeah, billion dollar companies, huge brands, they've done this thing. And it was like, wait, all they want to do is be what I get to do, right? All they built this thing that's way harder to do than what I do. And now they wanted, and so I was like, I have to make sure it's so easy to get away from that thing

because you have all these other opportunities. It's like, wait, if the person becomes a billionaire and what they really want to do is write for a living, and I am lucky enough to write for a living without having had to be a billionaire, I got to make sure I protect that purity and that space and that privilege to do that thing that I have found what I love

and not be tempted away from it by what's more exciting, what's more lucrative, what's more bigger ego hit, whatever. Yeah, exactly. And I think those are such, they're such like a bliminoleures, and like, you know, just everything we see and you go for the shiny objects or the platform or the title or whatever it may be. I actually said that it was,

it's really, I'm really happy hearing from you. You've written what nine books now? Yeah, nine or 10. Yeah, yeah, no, you know, it's like, I'm happy hearing it from you because I said the same thing to my team and because we wrote a chapter on process and not result too, based on the bug with Giddok,

because they're used. And so when I was writing that, I was explaining that to my team. I was like, I'm not writing this, trying to be a New York Times best seller or a Wall Street Journal. I was like, that's not, I was trying to explain the concept through my own process.

I was like, I'm trying to make sure we write the best book we possibly can write and that I absolutely love and that I'm enjoying while I'm doing it. And look, you have to do that because it's inherently unpredictable, right? Like, let's say eight of my first nine books did not appear on the Times list, and they probably sold enough copies to

because the world isn't fair because somebody made a mistake because somebody had a vendetta. I don't know why, but like, like, is that gonna determine success for me? Then I've just handed over my sanity, my happiness, my success to an outside entity.

And then conversely, let's say you do get it. Well, what if I've gotten it, but actually I knew deep down the book was no good, right? Or that I cheated or plagiarized or had someone write it for me or that I bought my way onto the list, which you can do, right? Like I'm prefacing or preferring an outcome to process and missing the entire point.

Totally, totally. And as I think I messaged you when I saw the news that you now share something in common with Leonardo DiCaprio, where it's like the guys have to wait so long to get an Oscar. Totally. And as I think I messaged you when I saw the news that you now share something you can call me, we're laying out a decapture. Where it's like, the guys have to wait so long to get an Oscar. Well, look, the other thing, it's like three weeks after I hit it or four weeks after I hit it, like Donald Trump Jr. took the number one spot. So it's like, does it matter?

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you also have to remind yourself that like, it doesn't actually matter. It's just a piece of paper. It's just a random accomplishment. How many people have done it before you? How many people will do it after you? If it was meaningless when you were deprived of it, also have to remind yourself, it doesn't

really matter when you get it. It's just extra. Yeah, I love that. I'm so aligned with that. And yeah, let that blow your mind if it takes a bit of time, because I think it does take a bit of time to, we're always trying to move away from pain because we think we have to move closer to pleasure.

When actually, you mean different, there's still a sort of indifference. Correct, yeah. And in Vedic terms, it's neutrality. Yes. Like it's the same thing, but different, yeah, just that neutrality

in happiness and distress, in fame and infamy, in. So, one of the things, so like that indifference can feel like, okay, does nothing matter? Is that nihilism? And one of the way the still sort of navigate that, which I love, Senna could go, but there's also preferred indifference, like not indifference, C-E-T-S, right? There's things you are indifferent to, but you would prefer, right? So it's like it's better to be tall than short. It's better to be rich than poor or whatever.

It's better to hit the list versus not hit the list, but you also still have to not let it affect you either way, right? And realizing that, yeah, okay, it's good to get it, but it can't be everything to get it. I lived in New Orleans when I was writing my first book and they had this word that I loved there. Land, yeah, do you know this word? No, I don't know.

It means like the 13th donut. It means like the extra, like, so you buy 12 donuts and they throw in an extra donut. You're like, you paid for 12, you get 12, great. If you got 11, you'd say, hey, you owe me one. But it's the extra, it's like the cream, it's the bonus. And so for me, it's not that I didn't care

that I hit number one, it's not that I don't care that my books have sold copies that I've got to do cool things, that it's been lucrative, it's that that I don't care that my books have sold copies that I've got to do cool things. It's been lucrative. It's that that is extra on top of that I enjoy doing the work that I get to, you know, I get to do my passion that I know I, you know, it's extra on top. And then that way, you can take it or leave it. Yeah.

I love that. Okay. This is from the chapter called Healy in a Child, which I thought was fascinating because take it or leave it. Yeah. No. I love that. Okay. This is from the chapter called Heal the Inner Child, which I thought was fascinating because I've never heard you talk about that before. I don't feel like that. I don't think I've really heard you mention that. Tell me where that idea sparked from for this chapter and why it was such a focus.

I mean, part of it, like, to be perfectly honest, from, like, therapy, right? Like, you realize that a lot of the really strong reactions and feelings and things that you have are not you as an adult, they're you at whatever age you're stuck in, right? So it's you, the 13 year old, whose parents got divorced. It's you, the 11 year old, who is humiliated in front of math class, right?

Or it's you, the six year old who had to wear glasses and you didn't like it. Or, you know, we all have experienced trauma and pain and deficiencies and problems. And there's a part of us that is that age that needs, that needed something then that we didn't get. And now we have to do the work to parent that inner child because, yeah, an 11 year old or an arrogant 17 year old is not going to cut it in the world of publishing, right? Because like, you're going to have to be an adult, you're going to have to be the bigger person, you're going to have to be responsible, you're going to have to be mature. And so just the act of deciding to parent that inner child, to reassure them, to comfort

them, to be what you didn't get from the people who should have done it when you were that age is really important. And if you don't have that, if you cannot settle that inner child, you will not have stillness, you will not have success, or you will end up destroying that success because you're not capable. You're not mature enough to deal with it. And so, yeah, like, like, you're not going to meditate your way into healing that inner child. Like, you got to go to therapy or you got to have some unpleasant conversations.

You got to look in the mirror. You got to do some work there. But, yeah, I think it's an important part of getting better and getting healthy. Yeah, I recorded a podcast last year called Why We Need to Develop the Emotional Skills Our Parents Didn't Have. And it's also about that compassion that when you go through that process of building those skills, you realize how hard it is. Oh totally. And to display it and to express it and for people to feel it and to be able to learn how to do it for yourself. And I think that's what therapy or meditation really is, is your ability to

parent yourself, your ability to give yourself what you feel you need from others. Yes. And becoming aware and being specific about what that is. And just making sure your life is not ruled by these emotional reactions or issues, that it's not your fault that you have them, but it is your fault if you don't deal with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And it'll blow, if you don't, it'll blow up your marriage, it'll blow up your work, it'll blow up your, you know, it'll just make your life not as good as it can be. And yeah, taking the time to, to, to do that, like inner

work is really, really important. Yeah, absolutely. So Ryan, we've got these two segments now that we end with. You're, you're probably, you're the only second person after my wife to have done this. Okay. So it'll be fun to do it. It's called fill in the blanks. Okay. So you have to end the sentence. And you can do it with more than one word, but you end the sentence. So good writing is never easy. Stillness is similar to...

Well, I would say nothing, right? It's a singular. What I love about stillness is that like, it's very hard to define, but everyone knows what it is. You know what I mean? Like everyone's experienced it might have been in it. For me, you know, not for me, but it's like for one person, it was, you know what I mean? Everyone's experienced it might have been for me, not for me, but for one person,

it was watching the snow fall for the other. It was playing the piano and for the other, it was, who knows, right? It's a totally different thing. But it is this singular unique thing that what I love about it is that it appears in every philosophical school and religion. There are very few things that that's true for.

It's true? Absolutely. All right, I love that. Ryan Holiday loves. Family work, like family writing, like family craft, and life. Having a farm helps me. Relax, disconnect, and be active. I have no tolerance for too many things and unfortunately, you know, the expression of suffering fools.

Like, I have problems realizing, like, not everyone holds themselves to my standards and that they're my standards and it's totally unfair to expect other people to live up to a promise they never made. I've always found that hard. I can totally relate to that one for sure. And I've been blown away. And there's probably only two people in the world whom I my monk teachers that I know that don't have that. Yeah.

And when they first displayed that, I was just like, wow, like they're like the hardest working, they made the most sacrifice, they meditated for the longest time, they wake up the earliest, they do more than everyone. Yeah, they do have not, do not have that expectation. That was Kobe's big problem, right? Yeah. He's like, he couldn't understand that not everyone was Kobe. That they were great, but not at his level.

And I think great leaders figure out how to work with people who are not like them. Yeah. And it's hard. I think that takes the most. Totally. Most. Okay, that was good. You performed really well.

That was awesome. All right. So we end every interview with the final five, which is our rapid five quick fire rounds. These are one word to one sentence on. Okay. They're a bit deeper than the other one. The last ones are fun. So this is, what question do you ask yourself the most?

Does this matter? Ooh, nice. Okay, the book you're most proud of and why? I actually think conspiracies my best book, because it was most... One of you is that I haven't read. It was the most outside my comfort zone. And weirdly has done the worst. And so I also love that I can be proud of it for intrinsic

reasons. That's how I feel about some of my favorite videos. Of course. I think every creative person is like, you have to learn how to separate best from most popular because they're not the same. They're not the same. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree with you. Okay, question number three. What question do you wish people asked you more often?

I never have a good answer to that question. Ah, I understand. Okay. I just don't think about questions that I should be asked. That's great. Because the fourth question would have been been I would have asked you that question Okay, if you could create a law based on the teaching you've learned for the world to follow what would it be? That's really good. I don't know and

It was sort of mandating some things or defeat the purpose of it, but like Man, that's really good. Take it down. I was talking to a shocker smart who's the coach at UT, the basketball coach. He's awesome. He's very zen, very philosophical. He's saying that he works as a coach. He never criticizes players for something that's not in their control. So like, it's not whether the shot goes in or not, it's whether it was a good shot to

take or not, it's whether it was a good shot to take or not. And so a lot of times in society you try to hold people accountable for the part after the ball has left their fingers. And so maybe there's something about sort of going like, hey, was this a good idea at the time you did it? Then you're off the hook. Was this obviously bad when you made the decision.

Okay, now actually come down with on you with full weight, even if it worked out. You know what I mean? I don't know maybe there's something there. No, that's brilliant. I love that. I don't know how you build a law around it. I don't either. Yeah, that's, I fully believe that. I think we're so, we so try and either predict how a decision is going to pan out. And that stops us from making a good decision right now. Yeah.

Or when the decision goes wrong, we stop blaming the time that we made it. Yes. And like, oh, you shouldn't have told me to do that. Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah, that's powerful. I really like that. Yeah.

Was it a good shot to take? Yes. Yeah, that's really cool. Because look, you know, you, a great cheater is only going to shoot 50 or 60% from the field. Yeah. So it's going to miss a certain percentage of the time. But if they don't take the shot, they're not going to make it. So how do you, how do you, how do you, it's easy to yell at them for missing.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's harder to go. You'll get it next time. Yeah. Exactly. Or you made the right decision there. Yes. Or you made the wrong, it wasn't the, it wasn't a mad that it didn't go in. Yeah. I'm actually more upset about the fact that you took a, you went for a three point win. There's like a famous story about John Wooden

where like a cream of Roger Barr or something made like a behind the back pass, worked out great, you know, worked out perfectly. And he was like, I'm mad at you because, you know, a behind the back pass, you know pass works 70% of the time, chest pass in that scenario works 80% of the time. The fact that you made the behind the back pass and it worked statistically does not make that a good decision or not.

You actually made the wrong decision even though you got the right outcome. Conversely, if you made the chest pass and it hadn't worked out, that doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. Yeah, yeah.'t mean it's the wrong decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. That's yeah, that's a fun one. I like that. Okay, fifth and final question of the final five

is what's been your biggest personal lesson in the last 12 months? The reason I wrote stillness was realizing like all the best moments in my life had some kind of stillness in them. And then going, why am I content for that to happen accidentally, right? like all the best moments in my life had some kind of stillness in them. And then going, why am I content for that to happen accidentally? So yeah, sure, there's a certain amount of sort of consciously seeking something out

can deprive you of it. But it's more like, how am I just going to make sure that I'm not making this thing that I actually want X. But are my decisions making X more or less likely? You know, and going, okay, so stillness is the goal. That's what the aim, that's what success is. But am I making decisions that create more or less room for stillness? And so just that, oh yeah, all the great moments are like this rather than just sort of hoping that you accidentally get what you want. That's been big for me. Absolutely. Ryan Holiday, everyone. That's been big for me. Absolutely.

Ryan Holiday, everyone. That was his final five. Stewardess is the key. Go grab a copy of the book. We will put the link in the biosection and all of the places. So make sure you go grab a copy of this book. Like I said, it's Ryan writes some awesome books. If you haven't read Obstacles the Way or Ego's the Enemy,

which are two of my favorites, then go and grab those with this one too. They're all the same size They're all perfectly they they look good on your shelf together, too Was it it was always men of the trilogy, right sort of it kind of happened okay, but it's coming out as a box set Yeah, oh yeah, it is. Oh amazing. I love that. Yeah, no, they're all they're they're perfectly designed I love it But go grab a copy for sure and Ryan, thank you so much.

Go and find Ryan on Instagram, where else would you like people to find you, Ryan? At Daily Stoke. At Daily Stoke. Daily Stoke podcast and then Daily Stoke YouTube. Amazing, yeah, make sure you go check it out on all the platforms, everyone. Thank you so much for listening.

What I'd love for you to do is anything that Ryan said that stood out, there was a ton in this. I mean, there are incredible stories of people that I've never heard before. There's some great Zen takeaways and the little nuggets of wisdom that are from the book. Tag us both in the Instagram post when you share them because I love to see what you're learning

and what you're gaining from as well, whether you're on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram, put them out there, make sure you tag both of us and thank you for listening to On Purpose. Awesome. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

Thanks, man. You're great. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. narcissism. This season we dive deeper into highlighting red flags and spotting a narcissist before they spot you. Each week you'll hear stories from survivors

who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and their process of healing. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War II? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books.

You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'm Munga Shatekler and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe. You can find it Major League Baseball, International Banks, K-Pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me, and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes

because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.