On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Stuck in a Creative BLOCK? THIS 3-Minute Practice Will Unlock Your Creativity (This Quick Daily Act Will Help You Feel Inspired Again!) With Amie McNee

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

Today, Jay sits down with author, artist, and creative mentor Amie McNee for a heartfelt conversation about reconnecting with the artist inside all of us. Known for her honest take on creativity and self-expression, Amie opens up about her journey, from battling self-doubt and shame to finding her voice as a writer and artist. Amie shares real stories of rejection, depression, and learning to embrace imperfection, reminding us that art doesn’t need to be perfect, it just needs to be real. Jay and Amie explore the common myths that hold people back from creating. The idea that creativity has to be profitable, that art must be perfect to be valuable, or that we need permission to begin. They discuss how shame, perfectionism, and fear of judgment often silence our creative instincts, and how practices like journaling, self-mothering, and small daily acts of creativity can help revive them. They also reflect on the emotional vulnerability of sharing your work, the importance of protecting your inner artist, and the delicate balance between wanting to be seen and creating for the pure joy of expression. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Reclaim Your Creativity Without Shame How to Make Art When You’re Struggling with Self-Doubt How to Start Creating Even If You Don’t Feel Ready How to Deal with Fear of Judgment and Being Seen How to Turn Jealousy into Creative Motivation How to Promote Your Art Without Selling Out Whether someone is writing a novel, posting their first poem, or simply daring to call themselves an artist, this conversation is a gentle yet powerful reminder—they are on the path, and their voice matters. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:49 Are We Born Creative or Can It Be Learned? 02:12 Why Everyone Is an Artist in Their Own Way 03:50 What Happens When You Suppress Your Creativity 06:37 How Journaling and Self-Compassion Can Heal You 08:30 You Owe Everything to the Past Version of You 13:03 How to Move Through the Fear of Being Judged 16:07 Why Art Exposes Both Light and Darkness 17:25 Let Go of Needing External Validation  19:30 Everyone Just Wants to Be Seen and Heard 24:31 Stop Dismissing the Parts of You That Want More 26:28 Stuck in the Wrong Job? Try Small Creative Steps 30:56 How Perfectionism Fuels Procrastination 33:11 Embrace the Beautiful Chaos of Art 34:17 What the 30 Circles Test Reveals About Creativity 36:44 How to Share Your Art Without Losing Yourself 39:07 Real Artists Are Meant to Break the Rules 40:29 What to do When No One Sees Your Art  41:54 If You Hate It, Stop Doing It 44:19 Don’t Chase Virality, Make Meaningful Art 46:40 Yes, You Can Make Money from Your Art 50:10 Every Creative Act Has Value So Honor It 53:12 Charging for Your Art Is Not Selling Out 57:39 Oversaturation Is a Myth, There’s Room for You 01:00:53 Your Voice Is One of a Kind Use It 01:02:25 Use Jealousy to Guide, Not Derail You 01:03:49 How to Inspire Others by Owning Your Path 01:07:12 Amie on Final Five    Episode Resources: Amie Mcnee | Website Amie Mcnee | Instagram Amie Mcnee | Facebook Amie Mcnee | TikTok Amie Mcnee | Books We Need Your Art: Stop Messing Around and Make SomethingSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. I was dead for 11.5 minutes. In return. It's a miracle I was brought back. Alive Again, a podcast about the strength of the human spirit. Listen to Alive Again on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Maren Morris is here. You came out of a marriage. You came out of quote unquote country music. And you had a huge growth spurt from what I can tell.

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And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here.

If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast. Literally, the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped. And everything changed because I allow creativity back into my life, shame free.

I think so many of us are creating, but we've got so much shame around it. We're not good enough, it's not making enough money. My parents really think I should give it up. There's so many narratives that come with creativity. So many of us are just being held back, kept small. I want you to find out what happens when you take perfectionism out of the equation and you just let yourself create.

The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to sit down with for so long.

I have stalked her on Instagram, shared a ton of her stuff, showed her work to so many of my friends and family members because it has deeply impacted me. It's a page that I turn to when I feel like I need someone to give me a bit of guidance, give me a steer, give me a direction to think in. And I can't wait to introduce her to all of you. I'm speaking about author, artist, creative, and poet, and so much more, Amy McNeese. Please welcome to On Purpose, Amy.

Amy, it is so great to have you here. I'm such a huge fan and I can't wait for your new book, We Need Your Art. I think it's going to be life-changing for so many budding creatives, people who are just starting out, up and coming, and at the same time, established creatives who are trying to rediscover themselves.

So as a fan, thank you for being on the show and so excited to have this conversation. Jay, I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for your art. I'm so grateful that you make the things that you do. And I'm just very excited to be here. It's... I'm trying to remember when I first came across your work, and I can't remember the exact moment,

but I remember the feeling I had of swiping through, reading some of your work. You were holding up your pieces of board or card, and, you know, with your thick marker, handwriting. And I was reading it and thinking to myself, how can someone be saying things that are so sometimes difficult, uncomfortable, hard to say and hard to hear, but doing it in a way that was so clear and so powerful? And I wanted to start off by asking you, how do you see people? Are people born creative or can people become creative?

And is everyone in some way creative? Because I think a lot of people listening right now are thinking, Jay, this episode isn't for me. I'm not creative. Not an artist. What do I do? I know. When I say, and I say it a lot, I say, we need your art.

And I worry about the amount of people who are like, oh, not my art. But I'm like, your art. And I think we have a real, we can really pedestal the term art as to what it is. And we think it's, oh, it's fine art or, oh, it has to be photography or a certain type of art. But art comes in so many different shapes and forms and we all have a capability and a desire to create. It's just that it looks different for all of us. So when I say we need your art, like I mean,

we need your art. Like we all have a drive and a desire to make stuff. It's so innate. It's so human. So I think we really need to take art off the pedestal. It's not just for fine arts, although obviously it is, but it's this, it's podcasting, it's watercolors, it's writing, it's planting, it's gardening. It's makeup tutorials. It's makeup tutorials, it's book reviews, it's cooking, like creativity, like it sinks into all aspects of our lives and we all have a thirst for it.

And so when I say we need your art, I'm talking about you. Yeah, and I love that you're broadening the definition of art. Yeah. Because I think you're so right, like growing up, I wasn't good at drawing. Yeah. And so I always thought I wasn't artistic. Yeah, it was so funny. I remember when I was finishing primary school, elementary school,

and I remember we did this reflection exercise, and it was like, what's your favorite subject and what's your worst subject? And I put my favorite subject being math because I thought I was a geek, but I wasn't. And then I wrote down my worst subject was art. And then when I went to secondary school, high school, and when I finished, if you asked me

what my favorite subject was, it was art. And if you asked me what my least favorite subject was, it was math. Because I had an me what my least favorite subject was, it was math. Because I had an art teacher called Mr. Buckeridge at QE Boys School in Barnet that expanded the definition of art from day one. And it became about color. It became about juxtaposition. It became about meaning.

It became about collage. It became about imagery. It became about my passions. It became about all these other things. And I then, uh, made him feel really upset because I, uh, sold out and didn't study art at university, even though I, I'd kind of fixed... But in so many ways you have studied art, you know? Like you kept that going in all aspects of your life.

Yeah, but you've broadened that definition for everyone. I think that's so needed because you are right, podcasting is art, writing is art, cooking is art. Yeah. The way we dress, you know, the way we express. Like, you can't not create art. And I think we need to reclaim that word for ourselves. It is mine and you are an artist in some way, shape or form.

What happens when we stifle ourselves? So what happens when you hold back? Sometimes, today people even know they're artistic. Maybe they even had a little skill when they were younger. Maybe they were passionate. Maybe even now in their spare time. But they're blocking themselves. They're stifling themselves because they've heard things like,

well, that won't get you a career. That won't pay the bills. That's not going to make you money. That's not a real job. And by the way, I heard all those things growing up. So it feels very familiar to me. What happens to us when we stifle ourselves and block ourselves?

Yeah. I mean, if you will indulge me, I'll tell you a bit of my story because I feel like, and exactly as you said, you've experienced this. Like all I wanted to do was tell stories. Like it's all I wanted to do, whether it was through acting or writing,

I just felt like driven to express myself through storytelling. And once I left school, I was like, okay, I'm gonna take this seriously. Like I really want to commit to this. And from the age of 18 to the age of like, really recently, like I was inundated with, it's childlike,

it's irresponsible, it's foolish to take the creative arts seriously. And I ended up with severe depression. I was so low because I was so embarrassed by this extraordinarily strong desire to tell stories. Like I just wanted to tell stories. And I felt so ashamed about it. And I felt like I couldn't be a real adult.

I couldn't grow. And so I withheld my creativity and I felt incredible amounts of shame. And I felt so embarrassed and I didn't wanna talk about it with anybody. And it resulted in me being ridiculously depressed. I was so low. I had such low affect.

I had no motivation because there was like a war going on inside me. And half of myself was like, I have to tell stories, like I am here to create, to make art and to impact the world with my art. And then the other half of me was like, this is so irresponsible, why can't you be a real adult?

Why can't you just grow up, like get a real job? And that duality and that wall within me left me like broken. And it wasn't until I started journaling and I started seeing the stories that I was telling myself and I was like, this, I cannot live this way. And so I started rewriting them like with my pen on the pages of my journal

and I allowed art back into my life, like shame-free art. And like since literally the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped and everything changed because I allow creativity back into my life shame-free. Wow, I love that. I love this on a shame-free art. It's so important. I think so many of us are creating,

but we've got so much shame around it. We're not good enough. It's not making enough money. My parents really think I should give it up. There's so many narratives that come with creativity and so many of us are just being held back, kept small. Yeah. We need shame-free art.

How did you get the courage to allow art back in? Especially when you're in a dark place, like you're saying you're experiencing depression, you're hearing all this negativity around you about the relevance of your art and the value of your art. How do you in that place go, I'm going to turn to art because it's the one thing that's been villainized and made to seem negative? Yeah, it was through journaling. It was a complete narrative shift.

So I would write out the stories that I was telling myself. So why can't you get a real job? Why do you think this is possible? This is so embarrassing. You've got hundreds of rejection letters from publishers. No one's listening to you. And then I would write it all out so I could witness the stories I was telling myself. I needed to see the amount of shame I was in because, and it would shock me.

I would reread what I was writing and I was like, my brain is a place of just violence and vitriol. I'm speaking so terribly to myself and to my inner artist. And then at the end of my journaling session, I would be like, okay, well, how do I want to sound? And I call it mothering myself. It's like a re-parenting exercise. And I would just be like, you know what? And I would treat myself like a baby.

And I'd be like, baby girl, you are here to tell stories. I am so proud of you. I'm proud of the way that you are showing up. I'm proud of the way that you were rebelling against society's expectation. You are being put on this earth to make art, to create, and I'm so proud of what you're doing." And so no matter how much I like spewed out crap and there was so much inner critic rubbish on the pages, I always ended it with this voice

that was like, okay, but I'm actually really proud of you. You know, you are here to make art and you're on the path. I used to tell that to myself all the time. You're on the path, you're on the path. And so yeah, it was through words, which is so appropriate, I guess, for me as an author. Yeah, but it's so interesting that that wasn't a learned technique or it was something that came... It just happened. Yeah, something that came from within, but now it's a practice people can follow through. And I love that repetition of you are on the path because I think that's so,

so true in that we think that we're either off the path or on the path. And we think that we're either going in the wrong direction or the right direction, rather than just recognizing that you're on the path either way. And I've, I've done this often and I've, I've seen a lot of people do it where we go, you know, up until last year, I was, it was just a mess and then I figured it out, which basically devalues all of that experience, all of that pain, all of that stress, all of the amazing journey you've had that brought you to that point that actually inspires and powers this path. But you're like, now I'm on the right path.

And so we have this way of devaluing past experiences. Even when we say, oh, I had this light bulb moment and then everything changed. And it's like, well, no, all of that got you to the light bulb experience. Yeah, I love that, Jay. Something I say to myself is that, I mean, again, I repeat it all the time.

Like you are on the path, you are on the path, you are on the path, but it would have been so easy for me to say, oh, I figured it out, now I've got the publishing deal, now I get to have an audience, and now I figured it out. But I actually owe everything to the girl that navigated silence, to the girl that navigated rejection, to the girl that had so much shame. When I think about how I got here, I owe everything to her. And I tell that to artists all the time because, you know, so many artists, we are navigating, you know, we're sharing stuff on social media. No one's seeing it. No one's liking it. We're,

you know, daring to put our art up for sale. No one wants to buy it. We are learning new crafts. We're being so vulnerable. And you, your future version of yourself owes everything to you for daring to be brave, for being courageous, for taking up space, even when no one else is listening or no one else is watching. Like I, right here on the Jay Shetty show, owe everything to the girl who was sitting at a cafe, extraordinarily depressed, but saying, you know what?

I'm going to dare to write today, even though nobody else wants me to write. I love that. I so love that because you made me think of, I remember when I started out and I think the first two presentations I gave, pretty much no one showed up. And then for years I was doing events for five people, 10 people, and I loved it. And actually I was so lucky because social media kind of kicked off a bit later than when I would have done that. I loved it. And actually I was so lucky because social media kind of kicked off a bit later than when I would have done that.

So I never even had the pressure or the belief that more than five to 10 people could come. Because maybe I'd seen 20 people in a room or 50 people in a room or 100 people in a room. And so to me, 100 was a big number. And I was talking to someone just a couple of days ago and they're a creator and they were saying like, yeah, I just feel this pressure of scale. And I feel this pressure of like not enough people have seen my work.

And I was just thinking, you know, whether I had five people in the room, 10 people, a hundred or, you know, whatever it is now, I was always just happy and grateful to be with whoever was in the room. And so now I feel that say, and I know it's easy for me, it sounds easy for me to say it now, and it's hard for me to reflect back from the external view of whether people believe me or not, but I can honestly say that I remember just wanting to spend the whole evening with the five people who turned up

and answer their questions and share with them insights. And it was so beautiful and valuable and meaningful that that's what gave me the practice. It's what gave me the ability to understand different people's challenges and stresses. And everything that I've been able to create here is only because of that experience. It wasn't that I'm different now and I'm better now and I mastered something. It wasn't that. It was all part of the same path. Yeah. We owe everything to that version of Jay. You know? And we get to experience you now because you dared and you enjoyed and you loved doing that work earlier on.

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I feel like so many people are probably listening to this right now going, Amy Jay, I have an idea. Yeah. Like, I have something in my head that really makes sense. But I'm scared to put it out there. And I'm sure you hear this all the time, but I see the fear of judgment and the fear of your art being shamed and the fear of people thinking it's silly, not

good enough as being such a blocker for people. And I wanted to ask you, how do you help people overcome that fear? Because it seems to be the biggest wall in the way of people and their dreams. I mean, there's so many different ways we can look at this. First of all, I'm so excited that you have an idea. Like, this is so exciting. Let's cherish it. We need to take care of it. I like that.

I'm really being serious. Like, we need your art. We need your expression. We need you to take up space. There are people out there in the world who need what you have to create. And if you choose to withhold it, they will never get to experience it. Like, you are a one-time phenomenon

that will never, ever be seen again. And if you choose not to take action on this idea, then that's done. That idea is done eternally, will never be seen again. I just want to really enforce that because it can be so easy to be so flippant. Oh, it's just an idea. It was never going to go anywhere.

These ideas are so precious and we need to take care of them. The judgment thing, misunderstanding, the, oh my God, what's that dude from high school going to think of me? It's so valid because art is so vulnerable. Creativity is like pouring a little bit of you into an external thing and giving it to the world. Like that's super vulnerable and so I want to validate that feeling of, oh my god, what will people think of me? Art is a courageous exercise. It is so vulnerable. It is so scary and it's okay that we have these feelings. I think there are several things that

we can do. I think the first one is come home to a truth is that you will be misunderstood and you will be judged and it's still worth making the art. I can't let some random guy from high school stop me from doing my work and I almost did. When I decided I wanted to really start taking up space as a writer, I was like, okay, I'm going to start like an Instagram, I'm going to start sharing my words and I was like, no, I can't, it's so cringy. And I was like, that guy from high school, like Ben from high school, or like, I kept thinking of these random people, they're going to see me and they're going to be like, who does she think she is? And it stopped me on my

tracks for ages. And I just love that version of myself, because she was so brave. And she decided, no, I want this life. I want to tell stories. And so I started Inspire to Write, started my Instagram, and I blocked every single person I could find. And I sat there for hours being like, they would stop me showing up, they would stop me showing up. And I created a cocoon for myself to become the artist that I needed to be. And so I think, first of all, we do need to understand that we will be misunderstood and that it is safe to be misunderstood.

But second of all, that we can take precautions to make sure that we are, that we have spaces to create and that feel as safe as possible. But creation itself will never be safe. It's inherently risky and that's why it's inherently rewarding. I love that. I love that you actually had a physical way of having to block and create those boundaries. And I think we don't think about it that way sometimes. We think that we should have got over that feeling first.

Like, I should be over the fact that my parents think this is a bad idea before I create. And it's like, well, no, you're probably going to have to create while they think it's a bad idea. Oh my God! We can't become fully actualized before we create art. And art's going to reveal all of your lightness, but also a lot of your darkness. So there's going to be so many things that come up

as you dare to do the brave thing and create stuff. Like you're going to see a lot of narratives, you're going to see a lot of insecurities, because again, making art so vulnerable, you're just going to see a lot of the hard things within you. And you can't wait till they're healed to begin creating. So yeah, do what you need to do. And for me, I needed to block every single person I could think of.

And now everyone's unblocked, but I needed that space away from eyes. I didn't want their perception of who they thought I was to interrupt my journey of who I was becoming. Yes. And so I claimed space for myself and I invite artists to however it looks, put boundaries in place so that you can do this work and you can feel as safe as possible. And no, you can't protect yourself entirely so that you can do this work and you can feel as safe as possible.

And no, you can't protect yourself entirely, but you can do a little bit so that you've, you know, feel a little more comfy, a little more cozy as you do the brave thing and start, you know, making some ideas. Yeah. I feel some of us have this feeling of I wish the people who loved me believed in me, right? And I feel as artists, because you can have a softer heart,

you're more empathetic, you're more in tune with some of these emotions and feelings, there's a sense of why don't you believe in me? And if you believed in me, I could do it. And if you believed in me, then I might get there. And if you believed in me, then I'd feel better about it. How do you let go of those kind of expectations that we often have of the people around us?

There's a heartful part of that, but really it's a hurtful part because it stops you from starting. Yeah, it's so hard. I speak to so many creatives whose closest people aren't backing them. I think when we commit to art, we often trigger a lot of people

and we trigger the artist within them that they squashed down and that they repressed. And so when we say, oh, I'm actually being incredibly brave and I've decided to write a book, we trigger a little part in them that says, well, I never let myself write a book. I thought you needed permission to write a book and here you are just taking up space writing a book. And I don't know that they necessarily know that that's what's happening, but I feel like when we commit to art, a lot of people find that confronting. And so that's important for us to realize is it's not us. It's often there in a child that just hasn't had a chance to express ourselves, because we don't live in a world that really encourages art, that encourages creative expression.

It's something to do when you're young and it's something to do when you're young, and it's something to do when you're retired. And when we dare to do it now, you know, in like the middle of life, like, I think it's, people are like, oh, well, who gave you permission to do that? And it's like, well, I did. And a huge part of my journey has been permission giving. Like, I thought I needed to wait for permission for the gatekeepers from publishers.

I thought I needed someone to say, you are now allowed to make art. One of the biggest revelations, and again, it came through journaling was, well, no, I'm just going to give myself permission. And I didn't need it through my parents. I didn't need it for my friends. I just needed to literally be like, I give myself permission to take this seriously. And it was the most profound permission slip I could have ever given myself ever.

I remember that as well for myself when I started to create videos eight years ago. And it was that same sense of feeling that before I did that, I was asking people to give me a job to do what I wanted to do. And I knew there wouldn't be an exact job for it, but I was even willing to sacrifice my art to take on a job that might evolve into the artistic version of that. And so I remember pitching myself as a trainee video producer at lots of companies in London and being turned down because I didn't do communications at college or I didn't do video production at college, university.

And then same thing with trying to meet editors of magazines and say, oh, maybe I can get in this way. And again, getting rejections. And then it was actually Raj who messaged me. I think it was like, gosh, like 2015 Christmas time. And he was like, yeah, you've been giving a lot of talks. We should get out there and just, you know, maybe we should record some stuff.

And I was like, I don't know. I haven't really made a video before. And I was like, I haven't really got any scripts. And he was like, let's figure it out. And so I scribbled some stuff down that I've been thinking about. And then we just went out there and we shot these four videos

and then we released them later on on YouTube. And it was the best feeling in the world. Like I've never, I wish I could bottle up that feeling and give it to other people. And well, well, you can with the work you're doing. Your book is that, we need your art. That's what the book is going to do for people. It's going to give people that feeling of freedom.

And it was the first time I felt free because I would constantly been waiting for someone to give me a job, give me a title, give me a position, give me an opportunity and a break. And you're so right. Like as an artist, you're constantly waiting for someone to say, yes, your art is valid, it's valuable. And it's almost like, how do you get to a point where... I want to ask you this because we almost oscillate between two ideologies,

which is like, you should just be happy making art and you shouldn't want anyone to see it. And then on the other end, it's like, well, you have to make sure people see it, otherwise, what's the point of making it? And so people get scared. And this is partly why I love your work, because I think it really gets into the nuance of that. Yeah.

There's this feeling of like, well, it's weird to promote yourself. So I shouldn't promote myself, but then no one sees my art. And then I'm a starving artist, but maybe that's my badge of honor. And that's what makes me credible and valuable. And then there's the other side of, I'm just going to sell out and make what everyone else wants me to make. I'm going to go with the clickbait trends and I'm going to do whatever it takes. But then I don't really like myself at the end of the day because that's not what I set out to do. How do you make sense of that when you're starting in the beginning and you're like,

gosh, I don't know which way to go. I don't know how to figure it out. How do you help people think about that spectrum? Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. What happens when we come face to face with death? My truck was blown up by a 20-pound anti-tank mine. My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel. I just remember everything getting dark.

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I'm like, oh, my God, it's go time. You actually sent it. Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast. Every Wednesday. On the Black Effect podcast network. The iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast. And back to our episode. This is such a nuanced conversation.

I'm so glad you said that because it is so complicated and it's so very valid to want to just make art for art's sake, to just want to play and create. In fact, I think that's an imperative part of every artist's journey. Like, have fun. Like that's so important for us. But there are so many narratives around, you know, how to do art properly and how you're meant to be an artist and you should make a certain amount of money and you should be showing up in this way. There are so many stories that I think

mean that we start feeling it can be incredibly stressful. Being an artist on social media is so stressful. How do I put myself out there? How am I meant to promote myself? Do I, should I want to promote myself or should this be a private practice? I think this is an intensely personal thing that you need to sit with and decide where you're at. But for me, my calling is to be seen. And I love supporting artists who want to be seen. And I think there's a weird amount of shame that comes from a creative who wants attention

for their art. And so my new thing at the moment is to say, I create art for the attention. Because I create art to connect with people. And I think a lot of artists do. Like we create because we want to show you. And it's a really beautiful thing to do, to make art and say, here, do you see yourself in this?

Like I made this, what do you, how do you find it? And so I want to really validate creators who are creating stuff because they want to connect. I think we've got this other story that is again a very valid story that says, you should only want to make art for yourself. Like Rick Rubin talks about this a lot and I love what he's saying

because if we do get too focused on the external and we start thinking, okay, well, I'm gonna make art only for other people and can really muddy the waters. We get very confused and we start thinking, okay, well, I'm going to make art only for other people can really muddy the waters, we get very confused and we lose our internal like compass of what it is we want to create. But I think there's this balance to be struck. Because yes, we have to love the process, we have to love the the act of art of creating. But at the same time, it's okay to want to connect with other people.

It's okay to want to have a relationship with audience. It's okay to want to be seen. It is so human to want to connect with other people. It's okay to want to have a relationship with audience. It's okay to want to be seen. It is so human to want to be seen. And I want artists to feel very validated that that is a beautiful and normal, almost holy part of this. I love artists that are out there asking people, hey, can you witness me?

I made this thing. Will you see me? Like it just sets me alight. I'm like, yeah, I do want to look at you. I want to see you. I want to give you my attention. Yeah. And you're so right, so many artists, and I know I carried this at the beginning. There's a sense of shame and guilt in, well, am I less than if I want my art to be seen?

Am I doing something wrong if I want my art to connect with people? Am I... And I agree with you that that can be such an excuse for us to not create and for us to not make. Or we create but then we play small and we hide and we kind of keep our work very separate because we want to... Or we say things like that where we say,

oh yeah, I mean, you know, I don't really care about followers. I don't really care about how many likes it gets. And inside it's eating us. Yeah. As opposed to accepting and saying, well, maybe I do care and I don't really care about followers. I don't really care about how many likes it gets. And inside it's eating us. Yeah. As opposed to accepting and saying, well, maybe I do care and I don't care. There's two sides of me. And I think I've always,

I feel that balance that you speak of is so true because there's a part of me that cares about everyone listening to this podcast right now because I want to, because I want to have a connection. I want to create something of value for you that benefits your life and changes your life. And you'll listen to this podcast right now because I want to, because I want to have a connection. I want to create something of value for you that benefits your life and changes your life. And you'll listen to this and it will be the reason three years from now you'll say,

I listened to that episode with Amy and I started creating. And all of a sudden I'm writing a book and my art's in a gallery or whatever it may be for you. I want that feeling, I do. And at the same time, I don't care because I just want to have a conversation with Amy. And so both of those things are true. But when we start denying parts of ourselves,

it's almost like we start lying internally to ourselves. And when you do that, you then really disconnect. There is such a duality to being a human being, and especially in being a creative, and I love that. Like, I care about my art impacting people, but I also want to make sure that I'm making art that I want to make and that I'm not making art just for an audience. And these two things can be true at once.

And we can honor both the fact that, yeah, I make art for the attention and I also make art because I just love to tell stories. And these things are true at one time. And we've got to honor both those parts of ourselves. You've done a lot of different jobs on the way here. I believe it was like you were a waitress at one point. Yeah, very bad waitress. You were a trainer.

You've done financial planning. I want to hear... I wouldn't say I did financial planning. I was a personal assistant for a financial planner. So I was financial adjacent. Terrible at that job too. But I want to hear about that journey because I think that's what I find fascinating about artists.

Like as an artist, you're always having to pay the bills, finding a way to solve this until your art becomes, you know, enough, anyone who's I'm doing air quotes next to enough to be recognized, et cetera. Walk me through that part of your life where you're like doing things that keep you afloat and at the same time, trying to keep your art alive. What was that like? Because I think a lot of people listening right now, they may be working a 12-hour job a day, they're working three jobs a day just to survive, but they're like, they've got this skill in art and really when they get home at the end of the day, they just want to switch on a TV show and escape and switch out. Like, how did you keep

both alive when it wasn't your main thing? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that makes me angriest is how much life robs us of our time. Like, I want so many of us to have the time, the energy particularly to come home and to create, but for so many of us, it's just, it's not possible. And balancing a regular work and a creative life is hard. And I really want to validate any creative who's navigating this

because I think we get a bit of the hustle narrative where it's like, just make it work. It is hard to balance your creativity and your real life job and caretaking and being a kid and just being an adult in general. Like, I can, it's huge. And I really struggled with it. I was waitressing because I was doing all these little jobs because I was trying to fit art around them.

So I was waitressing because I could then I could work after 3 p.m. maybe. I was a personal trainer because I'll train clients in the morning and the evening and I try and write in the middle of the day. Like I was trying to choose jobs that would work for me but it was exhausting. And especially because these jobs were so like

the antithesis of Amy, like I'm not made to serve people coffee, I can't hold the skim milk situation in my head, like I don't care, so I don't pay attention, so I'm not a very good waitress. I'm exhausted by the end of my shift, then I get home to my writing and I think, okay, well, I've got to write two to three thousand words. This is too much. And so I would let myself down. I would feel like I betrayed myself and I would get in patterns of constantly feeling like I've betrayed my inner artist, I've betrayed my dreams.

I can never reach up to this level. And I think I see it all the time. Like artists are like, okay, because I didn't write it all this week, okay, I'm going to weekend, I'm going to do, I'm very biased to writers, but any sort of creating, I'm going to create for like six hours to make up for it. And then they can't do it because they're exhausted.

And then in this pattern of self betrayal, and they start not trusting themselves that they're going to follow through. I had a real breakthrough when I decided that I was only going to write 300 to 500 words a day, just baby steps, small steps. I realized that that was a promise I could keep. 300 words could be done in like 20 minutes, 15 minutes.

They could be crap. That was another big thing. I think we demand huge amounts of time for our art when we're already exhausted and we're like, and they better be perfect. It's so unfair, so unfair. And also it's a recipe for absolute disaster. And you're not gonna be able to finish your creative projects

because these working conditions are horrendous. So it was 300 shitty words was my bare minimum. I also had a bare maximum so that I couldn't keep going. So I could contain my energy. So I wasn't allowed to write more than a thousand words. And that's how I wrote my books. That's how I still write my books, 300 to 500 words a day. And it's so doable.

And when you come home from an absolutely hectic day, you can say, okay, 300 words, 300 potentially crappy words, or 10 minutes on the guitar, or I want to take three pictures with my iPhone, you know, whatever it is, it's just really small, really doable. And then you start accumulating wins. So if you've done that like three, four times a week, you're like, okay, maybe I could do that again next week. And by the end of the year, you have a portfolio of your creations,

and you've become, you've improved as an artist, you've got something to show for yourself. Some of you will have a finished book if you've chosen to write. We ignore the magic of the baby steps so frequently because I think we're just such a go all in or go home culture. Yeah. And that you're so right that, you know, go all in or go home culture.

Just it blocks us the most because it's also this comes from like a bit of ego where it's like, I want to be the best at this. Like this has to be incredible. And it's almost like, well, maybe I'm not going to be the best at this the first time I try or for the first year or maybe for the first 10 years and that's okay because I'm just trying and I'm just learning. But that requires a sense of detachment and egolessness to be like, it's okay to make bad stuff.

And I know you are the biggest proponent of this. Shitty art. Yeah, and that's really been validating for me. Like every time I read you say something like that, or write something like that, I'm like, yes, thank you, Amy, for giving me permission. Walk me through how we... Because I think we oscillate between procrastination and perfectionism.

And so this kind of solves both of them, really. But walk me through that. Yeah, they're so closely related, procrastination and perfectionism. One causes the other and such a... Perfect perfectionism will mean that you procrastinate. So my ethos is, like, shitty art. Like, if you can't point to a giant pile of shitty art that you've made recently, then you're not doing the work. And I think so many artists see that as a sign of failure,

but to me that is a sign of, like, giant success. We have to connect to that messy, playful part of ourselves when we create. That's when the best art is made. I watch artists finesse and finesse and they're trying to get it so right. And they're like narrowing and narrowing their point of view and they're getting so constrained and they're losing, I think, their own creative voice almost by these huge restrictions to be perfect. Whereas if you just say, make shitty art, and I often do this at workshops,

I say, I got three minutes, just make something shitty. And the cool stuff that comes out of that, shitty poems, shitty drawings, there's also that little element of magic to it. Because when you just let yourself play like a child, it's so fun. There's a lightness to it. Ideas come in, likeionism is rigidity. And we think perfectionism is the answer. It's like, oh, if I'm a perfectionist,

that will get me to where I want to go as a creative. It's the one fault that we're allowed to have. But perfectionism will destroy your creative career. It will destroy it. We need mess. We need play. That is when you will become the best artist you can. Yeah, and that's actually often where I find the seeds of great ideas come. Yeah.

Like you did something bad, you did something random, but there was one word or one line in it or there's one dot or whatever it is for you. There's that one thing that you go, oh, that was the real thing. That's the thing I want to create now. And all of a sudden it sparks it. But if you didn't allow for that messiness, it was never going to happen. You would never have seen it.

You would never have found it. And that to me is, is definitely why I crave more play and more messiness in my life, because there's a sense of the profound will only come from playfulness. It's not going to come from trying to be profound or create something profound. It doesn't, it doesn't originate that way.

I think so many of us think that art is like a child thing. And so we're trying to be like adults creating. And adults would create in very structured ways. Like we'd have rules, you know, we'd follow an expert and we'd do exactly what they say. And we try and make art a very responsible and neat thing. But art is like that in a child playing. And art is messy and it should be a kind of a chaotic experience.

We've got to invite that back into our lives. Yes, I do this activity that I got introduced to many years ago. It's known as the 30 circles test. Don't know if you've ever seen it. So it's basically a A4 piece of paper with 30 circles printed on it. And I often hand it to executives at corporate coaching and corporate clients

that I have. And the task is you have to uniquely fill and complete and use 30 circles in 30 seconds and the clock starts and everyone starts scribbling away doing their thing. And then clock stops at 30 seconds. And I asked them, what have they done? Over 50% of the audience will have done one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight to 30, or ABCDEFG to Z, Z to ABC again. And so they will have done that.

That's what over 50% of the audience has done. Some of the audience has done squiggles, just random squiggles, nothing there, maybe knots and crosses, or they've, some people have done emojis, and some people have done like footballs and soccer balls and pizzas or have done like footballs and soccer balls and pizzas or whatever, like using circles.

And that's generally runs the gamut of 99% of the audience. And maybe in the adult side you'd get one, but they also did this with lots of 10 year olds, and I tried it out with 10 year olds as well. And some of the stuff that comes out is unbelievable. And so this one girl had done all this like intricate shading on it. And when we asked her what it was, she said it was a chess board from a bird's eye view. And when you ask another kid what it was, they had put like a line around it

and put a little thing on top and they said it was a bag of marbles and they put five dollars on the bag of marbles. And this was my favorite one. Someone had done all this intricate shading, this little girl, and put all this curves and all this stuff. And when I asked her what it was, she said it was bubble wrap. Oh my God. And it was so creative.

It's a genius. Yes, it's genius. And it's so interesting. What you're saying is so true that when adults hear 30 circles, 30 seconds, we go logical brain structure completion deadline. So we switch off the part of our brain that has any... Yeah, you can imagine how many of those adults are thinking, there is a right and wrong way to do this. And I'm going to be marked on it.

Whereas these kids are just like, it's so beautiful, so playful. And when we talk about creative genius, I think we often think of some of the greats like Mozart or something, but like look to the kids, because they are finding out fun stuff. They are the creative geniuses. And we have that within us. It's just that we've been told to squash that part of us from our culture, really.

How do you start to structure and strategize art and promote it in a way that then it does allow you to... Because it's almost like we're trying to become adult about our art, not adult about how we market, promote and strategize our art. If that makes sense. Like it's almost like the art should remain playful and messy and truly creative, but then how we get that art out there should potentially have structure and strategy and focus. Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you.

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Now let's dive back in. I think there's a lot of room for mess, for playfulness, for the chaos, the traditional creative chaos in marketing, putting your art out there. I think we get really stuck on, okay, well, I've made my art, it's incredible, it's beautiful, it has my inner child infused within it. Now I'm going to market it, and now I need branding colors, and I need a social media scheme, and I need to be doing, you know,

four to five consistent posts a week and three reels and all of a sudden that like, I see it, like artists just shrivel. Like we don't thrive under those kind of circumstances. I think there's so much room for, I think marketing is an art form in itself and therefore I think that when we put our art out there, when we promote our art, there is room for mess, and there's still just like shitty art should still be a part of it. Like we should still be playing around, seeing what works, having fun when we promote our art as well.

I think artists feel so claustrophobic when they feel like they have to niche down or they feel like they have to, you know, neaten up their Instagram grid. Like be messy in the promotion process. Like we're out there looking for real humans to connect with, not brands, not companies. I want to connect with artists who are real human people. And so I want to invite artists to bring that mess into the marketing process as well.

But I think it's very easy, like for our perfectionists to flare up when it comes to sharing our art. Because not only have we just done the bravest thing, which is make art, now we have to share it. And so perfectionism is going to flare hugely because we're like, I've got to protect myself. Because this is a moment where I put it out there and people are going to see me as the artist.

They're going to see my art. They're going to judge it. So we start trying to structure it really heavily in order to feel safe. And I just think we lose so much of the magic when we do that. I want to see the artist. I want to see the human. I want to see your mess.

I want to see you playing. I want to see, I just want to see grit when it comes to promoting. No, I actually agree with you. I actually agree with you. I definitely, when I was doing my structure and strategy, maybe I use the wrong words, I definitely don't mean, definitely don't like the idea of people having to, you know, like you said, choose brand colors and be organized. Yeah, very neat.

No, not in that way at all. And I couldn't agree with you more that often that's the stuff that stifles even more creativity because you're now playing a game that you hope to figure out. Yeah, I see artists, you see it everywhere online, especially in the space I'm in, because I'm so in the creative space. Artists are just so tired of having to show up in specific ways online in order to please the algorithm. Like, there's a weariness that I see in creatives that's so heartbreaking.

And I just want to say, first of all, I know it's hard to navigate these systems, but second of all, break know it's hard to navigate these systems, but second of all, break all the rules, rebel. Artists are inherent rebels. We break the rules. We've already broken loads of rules because we've created stuff in a world that wants us to stay small and compliant and silent. Now it's time to break the rules with how we put our art out there.

Do whatever you want to do. Do what makes you happy. Do what feels creative rather than constantly obeying what feels creative rather than, you know, constantly obeying what's going to go, you know, what, what we think might go viral or what reels are preferred by the algorithm, this stuff is making us feel like shit and it's not, I don't know that it's helping us. And how do you feel like if someone's doing that, but then they're also like going months and years without feeling like their work's being seen.

Yeah, it's so hard. And then they're battling the other side. Yeah, it's so hard. Yeah, it is incredibly difficult. And there's nothing, to me, there's nothing more painful than when you're sharing your art and nobody is seeing it. Like there is an exquisite pain

when it comes to that silence and navigating, like putting something out there that you've just created and having no one respond. Like for me, when I was navigating that, like I was very, very upset by it. And I felt almost ashamed by how upset I was by it. Again, it's that idea that artists shouldn't want attention. But I wanted attention. I wanted people to see and read my books. I wanted to be witnessed. So when artists aren't seen and when we're like, okay, I'm going to break all the rules, but it feels like by breaking the rules, you get missed or you get put to the side.

That can be incredibly difficult. I think there's a way to kind of toe the line and play the game, but at the same time, make sure that it feels good to you. Certainly for the way that I like to share my art, I don't want to do what's going viral, but I will still consider like, you know, how it's going to impact my audience and what people have enjoyed of my content lately. Like there's a game that I'm playing and it's a balance that I like to, there's a line I like to walk that makes it so it's still creatively fulfilling for me. But I'm not going to obey whatever the next niche thing I have to do

in order to be big on social media. Yeah. Do you find that like in terms of your creation? I mean, totally. I mean, we, in the beginning, you know, for me, the videos that I started with were me just freestyling almost kind of rough words, poetry on topics that I loved. They went viral by chance.

Like they weren't crafted for a particular time length or a particular editing pattern, because I didn't know them. I was just making videos. And they went viral and people loved them. And then I made more of those because I enjoyed them. But the day I stopped enjoying making them, we stopped. Yeah, beautiful. And then we created a new format where I'd seen a lot of comedians

who would do sketches and they'd be hilarious sketches of real life. I was like, well, what if I did sketches of real life? Like, what if I was to create real life experiences as dramatic performances with messaging? So we did those and I loved it and those went viral. And then there was a day I didn't enjoy making those anymore. I felt like I was trying too hard to come up with storylines. And then, so we stopped doing that.

And then I started the podcast, which I'm still doing today because it feels like the most realist fluid form because there is no set structure to make an interview go viral. It's truly a deep conversation. It's far less, there's not a science to that as much. And if there is, I don't enjoy it because I choose not to ask. I have a rule that we have of not to ask gossip-based questions, clickbait questions, because that's how we protect our art

in that I want the conversations to be true and genuine and sincere. But basically when I've stopped finding something fulfilling as art, I've stopped doing it because I've found that if I keep doing something I hate, I'm going to end up hating parts of myself. Oh my God, yeah. And I'm going to feel disconnected from myself.

We get a lot of bitter artists when we have, you know, a practice that we're doing, whether that's in the creation process or whether it's when we share it. If we don't like it and we keep doing it, we are going to become bitter. We see a lot of bitter artists out there who are just so angry at what the world has made them do. You know, whether that's to sell their books or sell their art or be seen on social media. And they're so pissed that they had to sacrifice

their creative integrity in order to be seen. And it just cannot be worth it. I just, I want creatives to create with what feels good. Exactly like you, Jay. It's such a beautiful example. When it stops feeling good, stop doing it. Try something else. Yeah, because it did feel good at one point.

Of course, yeah. And it was new and fresh and it was created. And the funny thing is, it parts of me that want to go back to some of those now. Yeah, in return. Because I'm like, I used to love those videos eight years ago. Maybe if I reconnected to them, I'd come at them from a really genuine place.

And so I can now go back home feeling happy rather than go back home feeling bitter because I feel forced to be there. And so I feel like when you let the algorithm dictate what you make, you feel forced to be there. And it's almost like your parents forcing you to come to family dinner and you don't want to be there. And I love what you said about artists being rebels

because I remember when I wrote Think Like a Monk, my first book, and 14 out of 17 imprints that I took meetings with at different publishers told me not to call it Think Like a Monk because they were like, Jay, who wants to think like a monk? No one wants to do that. And it was this big thing that I remember this conversation. And we were talking earlier about when you're writing your first book, you don't know how much to push for and how much not to.

That was something I pushed for wholeheartedly. And I'm so glad I did. I'm so glad you did. And you know, it's so interesting because same with my second book, I was like, I had this view of an artistic cover and I pushed for it again because I believed in it so deeply. And I could have gone for the cover that they thought would sell the most or whatever. And it was never that. It was always like, I want to create something that I think is beautiful and

powerful and builds a movement. Yeah. I think we've been taught to, we've got to create the thing that's going to go the most viral. But what if we create something that impacts, you know, a hundred people? Like that's still incredibly worth it. I think we're always aiming for virality. We're always aiming for like, again, what's that go big or go home?

Like what if we make art and share it in a way that, no, it doesn't go viral, but it connects and it impacts and it maybe only finds one or two people, but it does its thing and it resonates with them. I feel like artists are always told, you know, go viral, be Taylor Swift or be a starving artist. And it's this binary that doesn't serve us. I talk a lot about like, I want this to be the era of the middle-class artist, where

it's like, we don't need millions and millions of dollars, we need a stable income and we get to enjoy a stable income. We're not the starving artist and we're not J-Lo, but we are thriving, joyful, you know, financially secure artists. Like that's what I want for us. And I think it's much more possible than we realize. You just talked about how you want this culture of middle-class artists, which I love that.

Like that's such a, such a great vision and such a great mission that you're on. Like I really like that. Because like you said, I think for so many years, we've been told art's not a real job. It won't make you a living. What's the point? And we've subscribed to that. and then you do a safe job and then you realize you left your dream back there. Yeah.

Or you got lucky enough and art did become a really big thing but then maybe you lost touch with the art you wanted to create and you felt like you sold out. And I've always described it as the selfish artist or the sellout artist. And it's like the selfish artist only creates them for themselves, but then they don't ever get to feel what it feels like to share their art. And the sellout artist only creates for the audience

and then they never create what they truly want. And the balance is in between. Yeah. But when it comes to monetizing your art, I feel like people are scared of asking for money. We're scared of valuing our art accurately, and then at the same time, we're struggling to pay our bills at points in our life.

How do you encourage people to think about monetizing their art and becoming a middle-class artist? There's so much shame around, for all of us, whatever we're doing, there's so much shame around money, but I think for artists, there are so many narratives. There's this almost glamour around being the poor artist, and then as you say, then there's the glamour around being like the super mega famous artist.

And there's no healthy story about an artist who gets paid for what they do and can live, you know, a sustainable life. And, you know, there's a value exchange and it feels good. And the exchange of money feels good. And I feel like for me personally on my journey, like it's been the most beautiful thing to realize that selling my art has felt really good. And I feel like for me personally on my journey, like, it's been the most beautiful thing to realize that selling my art has felt really good. And selling my books has felt

so aligned. I know that my stories are going to serve them. And there's a value exchange and they pay me for my stories or they pay me for my words. And it's felt really beautiful like a very, like a relationship. It's felt very intimate, it's felt very aligned. And I always thought that it was gonna feel icky or it was gonna feel yucky or that I was gonna feel like I was taking advantage of them or manipulating them. But I found a space where it feels good and I want artists to understand

that selling your art can feel good. And so I want artists to start getting comfortable with the idea that art is valuable. And perhaps that's maybe the part of the problem, like we don't understand that art is valuable. People think, oh, you know, food is valuable because it feeds me or, you know, I need a computer because I need to do work on it, but we don't really understand the value of art. And it is incredibly hard to put a monetary value on art.

I mean, I have so many conversations with creatives being like, how do I put like a dollar sign on my art? And that is hard. It can feel very arbitrary. But art has value. Art brings so much value to other people. And the artist needs to learn that. Because I think there's too many creatives going around out there thinking,

oh, I'm just, I'm making decoration for the world, or I'm just doing something so silly. I'm telling stories, I'm making movies, but it doesn't make a difference. Art makes a difference. And we're getting some very cool research coming in about how art impacts us physically, how it impacts our mental health,

how it impacts our communities. Art changes us, but artists don't recognize that. And we still think we're doing something frivolous, when in reality we are doing something incredibly profound that is making real change, political change, personal change, biological change to other people around us. You deserve money for that. That story needs to sink in

and then that value exchange is going to feel so much better. So powerful. I'm so glad you made it so easy and clear. And it's so true, I have so many friends who are artists who do something, and it's quite easy for them, or it's effortless for them. And then they're scared, and there's this beautiful old made-up story that I heard a long time ago where it's not true at all, but it's got a nice message. And Picasso walks into the marketplace, and this lady sees Picasso,

and she says, Picasso, will you draw me a portrait? He says, sure, I'll draw your portrait. So he grabs a pen and paper and he draws a portrait of her and he gives it back to her. And she says, Picasso, that took 30 seconds. Like, and he's like, it took me 30 years to do that in 30 seconds. And it's like when you're working as an artist, you're almost recognizing and reminding yourself that when you're putting a value in your work, you're putting a value in all the training, all the pain, all the stress, all of that that went into that piece.

That's maybe have taken you 20 hours, maybe took you two hours, maybe took you two minutes. But there's so much experience that went into that piece. And so whether it was a quote on Instagram or whether it was a piece of art, we're always valuing how long it took us to do the thing, not how long it took us to live what it took to do that thing. I also think we think that because art can be joyful or easy to make, that it shouldn't be worth money.

Yes. Because I had a really good time writing my book, I should give away it for free. Yes. Which is ridiculous. I think we always feel like we've got it too good. Could I love the process and be paid for it? Yes, you could because your art has a lot of value

and you deserve to be paid for it. Again, I want artists to understand that what you are making has value. You deserve money for it. Yeah, no, and I think about it all the time. Like, there's also this feeling of if you're doing something truly to help people, it should be absolutely free. And that's a really interesting one.

Oh, go on, you have a reaction. I can see your reaction to that. So like. I think it happens for artists a lot too. And I get a lot of creatives telling me that, oh, their family members are asking for free art or, you know, if you really wanted the world to change, you would give it away for free. Lots of narratives, again, constantly asking artists

to work for free, devaluing creatives, devaluing artists. And it's so painful because it's kind of a seductive narrative. I actually really want to hear what you have to think about it. But this idea that it's only generous if there's not a value exchange is just so cruel and it leaves artists, first of all, it perpetuates the scarcity story and the artists are poor, we have no money, which means we end up not creating that much, which means we don't have the money, which means we're working multiple jobs, which means we can't create the art.

If we don't support and nourish artists with money, we lose artists. So we need to be paying our artists. If you want more art, if you want an art, a world that is filled with books and movies and creations and musics and beautiful gardens and good food, we need to support our artists. And I still think that when we put our art up for sale and when we sell it, it is a profoundly generous act, especially when we ask for money for it in return.

Yeah, you asked my opinion on it. It's similar to yours. I remember at one point in my life, I was, I had a hundred million views and I was four months away from being broke. And I was starting to think, okay, I'm going to have to go back to work. I'm going to have to get a job again. And I know that the job I would probably get would be demanding because that's the job I'd get with my education and everything I have.

And therefore I'd probably not be able to do much of this anymore. And that means if I can't make this anymore, but the hundred million views, I have the comments and everything I'm reading, Jay, this really helped me. This changed my life. I shared it. I like all the comments I'm reading are like people are benefited by this, but I'm not going to be able to do that anymore because I don't know how. And I remember going through that whole process and I was thinking,

well, wait a minute. And at that time I was shaming and guilting myself for even thinking that I could charge for something. And I was like, well, how do I do that? And like, but people are getting value from it. But then I really want to do it for free because that's how I was trained to always. And obviously with my monk background, it's like everything was for free and everything was charity work. And so I really had that conditioning. And then I thought to myself, well, if I give up what I love, that helps people and serves people,

and I can't do it any longer, is that the world I want to live in? And it was a really clear answer where it was like, well, no, I want to live in a world where I can do this forever. I can help more people do what they want to do. We can even create teams that will all be living a purposeful life that they want to live in. And we'll be able to, hopefully, impact so many more people who will create amazing journeys for themselves. And I'm so glad that despite any criticism, shame, guilt that comes with that path, I'm glad I made that choice.

Because I'm far happier having pursued that than I would have been if I just went, okay, well, I'm done. I'm done now because I can't afford to do this anymore. What a huge loss for the whole world if you would have been like, I'm done. And for myself. And for you, yeah. And the creative of like, just also just not just thinking about, well, I can't make more if I don't have enough to make with.

Like, who am I going to pay to edit the video? Exactly. How am I going to film this? And how, all of this. And there was even, even with the podcast, which is free, and I always thank everyone for us allowing to have our sponsors and our ad partners, which is the way we're able to do this.

And we're so, I always say this to everyone. Well, not everyone. I say this to my friends behind closed doors. I'm like, we're so selective over which brands we work with, which companies we partner with in order to present that to our community. And we probably leave more on the table than we even make because of that desire to get it right. And I'm not saying that to sound holier than thou or sound...

What I'm saying is, everything's done intentionally. And I think if it's done intentionally, there's a heart there and there's a truth there of wanting to serve and wanting things to be good. Yeah. And the podcast is absolutely free, but there are certain things that may not be if that person wants to hold that integrity for themselves.

I love that. No, it makes a huge amount of sense. I think artists are just constantly... People always want to call them out for selling out. And I don't know why we're so vulnerable to that narrative, because you don't go up to your accountant who's doing important work and say, why are you being paid for this? We don't go up to, we don't ask other people, why do you want money for your job? But we ask artists that all the time, we ask creatives that all the time.

And it's interesting, and I don't fully understand the narrative there, but I question it. And I want to like double down, like we deserve to be paid and we deserve not to be questioned about that as well. Like, of course we, we bring value. We deserve money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's because, and that's a great point. It's like wanting to understand that. I think it's because emotional and spiritual exchanges are not valued in society as deeply, right? Like you can't, we all know there's people you meet that energetically make you feel better. Because you're not known to pay for that as an energetic exchange. You almost think it's impure if you had to pay for it.

So we see money as impure and we see art as pure. Yeah. And we don't like them touching. Correct. Whereas I want to very gently suggest that art is like messy, human, like not pure at all. It is holy and incredible and the most important force ever, but it's messy and it's human and it's ugh. Same with money.

It's like, you know, none of these things are impure or pure. They're all very human ideas. And I believe art and money belongs together. No, I love that. I want to ask you a few more about some emotions that artists often go through. I think one of them today is oversaturation. Oh yeah. This feeling of it's oversaturated.

Like I was looking at someone the other day, a friend of mine said to me, they said, Jay, I feel like you were one of the first podcasts. And I was like, I think you must be kidding, right? And they're like, no, no, no, I think you you were one of the first podcasts. And I was like, I think you must be kidding, right? And they're like, no, no, no, I think you were like one of the first podcasts. I was like, I launched my podcast in 2019 and I pulled up this chart. I Googled it. There were 336,000 podcasts that existed in 2019. And of course there are so many before that that were well known and big as well.

And it was like, but to them, because I was the first podcast they'd discovered, I must have been the first podcast. And I was like, it's rarely the first thing of anything that takes off, has lessons, is whatever. Today, I think there's over probably. I was about to ask, do you know the number? I think I could be wrong. So, but maybe like 2 million maybe today.

Yeah. And so I'm sure it's high because it's been five years. I still, I want to say though, like 2 million isn't that high. Not for the world. There's 7 billion of us. People like, I couldn't start's high because it's been five years since we've learned. I want to say though, like, two million isn't that high. Not for the world. There's seven billion of us. People are like, I couldn't start a podcast, it's saturated. I'm like, it is, there's two million podcasts. There are so many of us, there are billions of us.

I think we can kind of get the scale a bit confused sometimes. Totally. But yeah, whenever anyone says, I can't, it's oversaturated. No. Plus there's no noise like your noise. There's nothing that you, again, you're a one-time phenomenon. You're never going to be repeated. You have something to say that's never been said. You have a viewpoint that will never be replicated.

You almost have your own market. Yes. There's so much. I see that more and more when I see creators come up and I'm like, there is so much demand in the world. We're so hungry for art. Yeah, for art and to be seen. And you can make people feel seen in a way that no one else can.

And that's your superpower and that's what's so beautiful about you and that's what's needed because you're going to make someone feel seen, heard and understood in a way no one else can, in a way I can't, in a way you can't, in a way this- I love that. Yeah. I really, I often use this example when people talk about oversaturation and art,

because I think art sits in a really different space to other products. So for example, like a toaster, I only want one toaster. Or I could maybe want two, but basically I want one toaster. But I want hundreds of books. I want, I can watch so many films. I can have so much art around me. Like I want so many different types of plants for my garden.

I want, you know, to try different types of food. Like we have a really, really big appetite for art. And so when people come in and say, I couldn't possibly be a writer, there's so many writers in the world. I'm like, I can't have enough books. Like I'm mainlining them on audio books, like just all the time. Like art is not toaster. It's not a fridge. We don't need just one of them. We have a much bigger market than you realize.

And I always feel whenever a creative, I very gently say this, when a creative comes to me and says, I can't, it's over saturated. I go, there's got to be another reason. Yes. You're playing small, like, cause it's a, it sounds great. It sounds like a perfect excuse, but we need your voice. There is no noise, no noise like your noise. Start taking up space. Yes. And like 2 million podcasts, 7 billion of us.

I don't want more podcasts. I listen to new podcasts all the time. Totally. And most people I've found listen to a collection of podcasts. Totally. And people was me that, like, how do you feel about so many other podcasts coming up? And that's the funny thing. It's like that's the conversation when you're established

and the conversation when you're new is there's too many. Yes. Everyone's like, oh, and I'm like, I love it because most people are listening to like two or three different podcasts at the same time. It's how we... We don't all go, I only watch Netflix. It's like, no, I like shows on Apple and I like some shows on whatever else there is here.

Sorry, I only know the channels that are American. That HBO and Hulu and whatever else there is. It's like, you don't just go, oh no, no, no, I only watch this one platform. I only watch YouTube, I don't use Instagram. Like it doesn't work like this. No, and like on Instagram, it's like, oh, there's an oversaturation of poets.

I'm like, give me all the poets. Yeah, exactly. I'm not just following one poet on Instagram. Totally. And there's a renaissance for so many art forms at the moment because of social media, because we have this like connection economy, and there is more space than ever before. And it can feel like there's a lot of noise because of these spaces. And because when you scroll through Instagram, you can see a lot of creators,

but it's because we're hungry for it. And more than ever, we're hungry for very vulnerable, real connection. We're hungry for art in a world where we're showing a lot of, you know, listicles or like viral content. Like we're hungry for human expression. And so it's time for artists to step up, take up space, share their art, make things because we're desperate for it.

So yeah, I really won't hear anything to do with the saturator market. I will shut that down. Another emotion I think a lot of artists experience is jealousy. If we're being really honest, jealousy and envy of like, I wish I had that. I wish I got those views. Yeah. Why is that happening to me?

I'm jealous of you Jay. But I am. But I wish I got those views. Yeah. Why they have me today? I'm jealous of you, Jay. Yeah. But I am. But I see jealousy as a compass. I think it can be a beautiful emotion. If we let it fester, it can be toxic. I love the way you use your platforms. I love the art you make. I love the way that you use this podcast.

And then there is a definite, like almost, it feels a bit like jealousy. Like I want what you have. But I can use that in a way that is incredibly inspiring to me in my art. And I know where it is I wanna go. I can learn from you, I can be taught by you, I can follow in your footsteps.

And if we can use jealousy in that way, rather than sinking down into patterns of comparison. So instead of me sitting here and being like, oh, why am I not in Jay's position and like listing the reasons why, why and comparing two incomparable artists? I can use jealousy as a compass. I really wish that artists could see it in that way because, again, it's another emotion that can take us down. We can feel constantly less than, never enough.

And I also feel like it's an emotion that maybe doesn't go away. I'm not sure if that's been your experience. If you've seen that, like it doesn't matter how big you get. There's always someone who's got something that maybe you want or something like that. And it just, if you don't get a handle on it, I feel like it's not something that, yeah, it doesn't fade away with success. Yes. Yeah.

There's two questions I ask clients of mine when I'm coaching them. And the first question is, who do you envy? And there's no one that I've met, no matter how successful they are, that doesn't know that word on the tip of their lips, like that they know it. And I've found that learning to deal with envy and transform it is core to happiness and fulfillment in life, because you can't forget even how much you do what you love. Even if you did what you love every day and it paid you well, you'd still be unhappy if you had envy in your life.

Like envy is that force, that what you're saying to use it as a compass. And what I often do, and I said this to you the moment you walked in, because I love the way you write, I said to you, oh yeah, I probably need to take a workshop with you. And that's me saying I'd rather study with you than moment you walked in because I love it the way you write. I said to you, Oh yeah, I probably need to take a workshop with you. And that's me saying I'd rather study with you than envy you. I love that. Like that's the choice I get to make. I'd rather study you and your work and how you've learned that and study with

you and grow and have a relationship with a mentor than to envy that person. And, and want to never give myself the opportunity to grow and become, but only to unbecome and unlearn and kind of go backwards. That was stunning. I loved everything you just said so much. I feel like that's so beautiful. The idea that it's an opportunity to level up as soon as you feel that jealousy and envy. I think you've got two options. It's like you could really let this take you down or you could really let this take you up. So it's very exciting.

Yeah, it's similar with imposter syndrome. I have to feel like imposter syndrome is a sign that you've leveled up as well. You're in that new skin and it feels like uncomfortable. But yeah, it's an opportunity to say, no, I'm going to learn from you. I'm going to sit at your feet. I love that.

Yeah, absolutely. We Need Your Art is out right now. I'm excited for everyone to grab a copy of the book. Amy, is there anything that I haven't asked you that's really on your heart or something you wanted to talk about that we somehow didn't get to that you want to share now that intuitively is coming to you? Yeah, I mean, we could talk for a long, long time. I think I want to talk about how when I wrote We Need Your Art, it was not long ago, I loved that I got to speak to the creative experiences

from in the trenches, and because it can be such a challenging experience navigating yourself as a creative, there's so much rejection, silence, you know, imposter syndrome, comparison, like so much of what we've spoken about. And I love that I got to write this book in it. Like I'm still experiencing rejection, I'm still experiencing violence. Yeah, exactly. And I love that I got to, yeah, delve into this topic with everyone as we all navigate it. And yeah, I'm very excited for people to get to read this book

and for me to be on that journey with them. Like the greatest privilege in the world for me is to to read this book and for me to be on that journey with them. The greatest privilege in the world for me is to sit by an artist and watch them create. There's no greater honor to me. So I'm very excited for this book, baby, to be in people's hands. That's beautiful. Me too.

I really believe it's going to be that generational book that's going to inspire all these new creators and artists at a time when I don't feel ever since social media took off, we've really had a book that speaks to that dilemma of being an artist. And I feel like we need your eyes, that book. So I'm really excited for you and excited for everyone to have it. Excited to read it myself and have it.

But Amy, we end every On Purpose episode with a final five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So Amy McNeil, these are your fast final five. I've been preparing. I love it. I love it. Question number one. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

I love what Liz Gilbert says when she says, this world is just a school for endless learning. I love this idea. And I feel like you embody this so much. It's like, this is just a school for endless learning. I love this idea and I feel like you embody this so much. It's like this is just a school for endless learning. We just get to keep being curious, keep learning, keep making mess and then finding something magic within it. And I love taking that into each day because it allows for so much room

and it gives me, even if it's shitty or even if it's good, I love it. I love it. Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Honestly, like in a more general term, it's like, be careful. I wanted to recklessly pour myself into my art. I wanted to be risky and the words I kept getting was be careful. And it made me feel like I was doing something wrong, but I love the invitation for artists to rebel, to be the revolution, to just be

messy and recklessly like throw themselves into this creative life. I just got goosebumps. I was like, that's really like, they're so right that, that cautiousness, which is for safety, but always ends up feeling like it trapped you instead of keeping you safe. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that.

Uh, question number three, what is the worst instead of keeping you safe. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that. Question number three. What is the worst piece of art you've ever made? Oh man, you should talk to my partner. So we write books together. And so I'll write the first draft and then he'll read it. And watching his face as he reads my first draft, he's like, what is this? He's here right now.

Yeah, and it's because I pride myself on this. I write spectacularly shitty first drafts and I'm genuinely proud of it because I just word vomit. It's just la la la la la. There's so much magic in there, but it is difficult to navigate as an editor and poor James really has to wade through some shit.

But I'm incredibly proud of my first drafts. I love it. That's great. And what is the, your favorite piece of art that you've ever created? I wrote a fiction book called Regrettably I'm About to Cause Trouble. And it's just that, it's that don't be careful kind of vibe. It's a witchy historical fiction, like rebel book. And I loved, it was this reckless abandoned novel of just throw yourself in.

So she has a special place in my heart. I love that. Fifth and final question, which we asked every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create a law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? I want people to make some shitty art. I want you to find out what happens when you take perfectionism out of the equation and you just let yourself create. So yeah, make shitty art. That's all I want.

I love it. Amy McNeer on the book is called, We Need Your Art. If you don't follow Amy already on Instagram, inspired to write. Uh, Amy, it's been such a joy. I look forward to getting to know you so much more. I'm so excited for you to continue to create art in this world and we definitely need your art. So I'm so happy to connect you with your work and found it organically, fell in love with it.

And it honestly does work wonders for me when I'm struggling and figuring things out. And just go to your page and find something that resonates very, very deeply. So anything I do that helps anyone, you get the credit for it too, because... Yes! Because yeah, it definitely,

I wouldn't be able to do it without people like yourself. So thank you so much. Jay, thank you for your art. We need your art and I'm so grateful for you. Thank you. Thanks, Amy. If you love this episode, you will enjoy my conversation with Megan Treanor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.

My therapist told me, stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what? Her thighs are cute. Hey guys, it's Jhene, AKA Cheeky's from Cheeky's and Chill Podcast. And I'm bringing you an all new mini podcast series called Sincerely Janaye.

Sure, I'm a singer, author, business woman and podcaster, but at the end of the day, I am human. And that's why I'm sharing my ups and downs with you in real time and on the go. Listen to Cheeky's and Chill on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Tia Madison, coming to you live and in color from the Outlaws Podcast.

We're talking to Chaperone and Sasha Colby. We talk about the lovers, the haters, and the creators. In the Midwest, they told you, would you just be humble? Mine was, I think, wrapped up in, like, Christian Go. Oh, yeah. We definitely had, like, some Jehovah's Witness girls. Oh, yeah. We definitely had like a Jehovah's Witness skill there. Yeah. Wait, were you Jehovah's Witness? Yeah.

My family still is. Hey. Or no, hi. Ha ha ha. Listen to Outlaws with T.S. Madison on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, honey. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast.

I know how overwhelming it can feel if flying makes you anxious. In session 418 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, Dr. Angela Neal-Bornett and I discussed flight anxiety. What is not normal is to allow it to prevent you from doing the things that you want to do, the things that you were meant to do. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an iHeart Podcast.