On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Zane Lowe ON: 3 Tools for Navigating Social Anxiety & 3 Ways to Change Your Relationship with Your Ego

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

How do you deal with social anxiety? Do you have tools in place to help you overcome anxious thoughts? Today, Zane Lowe sits down with Jay Shetty for a conversation about success in career, marriage and parenthood, and how to navigate social anxiety. Zane is a grammy-nominated producer, executive, and radio host. He is Apple Music’s Creative Director and the flagship anchor for Apple Music 1, part of the award-winning Apple Music Radio.  In addition to hosting his daily show, Zane curates original programming and oversees Apple Music's artist-led programming, which features shows hosted by Lady Gaga, Billie Eilish, Lil Wayne, Justin Bieber, and many more.   Zane opens up about his lifelong passion for music, which was ignited by a chance meeting with Split Enz. What's truly remarkable is that, despite his immense success in the music industry, He remains a devoted fan at heart. He reminds us that our passions can be a driving force in our lives, and when we put our focus on manifesting what truly matters, we can create space within ourselves for the good things. As we dive deeper into this candid discussion, Zane shares his insights on maintaining a balanced life in the face of distractions and the importance of cherishing the simple things. He highlights the value of creating communities and experiences that inspire others, shedding light on how therapy played a pivotal role in preparing him for parenthood, and the essence of love as an unspoken language, the secrets of lasting marriages, and the true meaning of greatness.  In this interview, you'll learn: Why you need to focus on what truly matters in your life How to create space for positive things The power of shared experiences in a community How to love deeply and more meaningfully How to be in-tune with your ego How to maintain a healthy balance in your life How to have impactful and inspiring conversations In the end, we are reminded that the most inspiring conversations often happen with those who have no intention to sell, leaving us with profound insights about life and purpose. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss:  00:00 Intro  01:29 How A Life-long Passion For Music Evolved Into A Successful Career  07:36 We Manifest The Things We Focus On  10:06 Dedicate Your Focus To Things That Feel Authentic To You  14:19 The Importance Of Creating Space Within Your Mind  16:30 The True Purpose Of Music Is To Inspire and Create Community  20:55 How Therapy Helped Prepare Zane For Parenthood  24:55 What Kind Of Father Do You Want To Be?  26:30 Why Is Love Considered An Unspoken Language? 29:36 You Need To Grow Together If You Want Your Marriage Can Last  33:44 Navigating Social Anxiety  36:26 True Greatness Comes From Knowing How To Access It  42:06 How To Recognize A Genuine Connection With An Individual  45:37 What’s Your Relationship With Your Ego?  51:30 Do You Manifest? How Do You Practice Manifestation?  53:23 How Do You Manage Ambition And Still Maintain A Balanced Life?  58:46 You’ll Miss Opportunities If You’re Only Focused On Speed  01:01:00 Practicing Healthy Routines  01:04:07 Undoing Habits And Practices That Society Built For Us  01:11:03 What Is The Difference Between Working And Working Hard? 01:11:55 The Most Inspiring Conversations Are With People Who Have No Intention To Sell 01:17:25 Zane Lowe on Final Five Episode Resources: Zane Lowe | Twitter Zane Lowe | Instagram Zane Lowe | Facebook Zane Lowe | TikTok Zane Lowe | YouTube The Zane Lowe Show Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The purpose of Jay Shetty. How do you describe what do you do? How do you like to choose? Because I feel like when you have a role that is public, like I always get asked, what do you want your low-affirte to say? And I don't like being defined by the lists of roles and titles. So how would you describe what you do or what you believe in?

I agree. I mean, I think roles and titles make it easier to work with other people with roles and titles. But I think in life, it's different. In my life, I'm just a fan. I'm just a fan. I'm someone who discovers something very early on in life that stuck with me. I knew it was going to be very special and important

to my development, to my identity, to helping me find my way in life. And once I kind of made it a singularity, rather than one of many hobbies, it just, I just tried to immerse myself in as much of it as possible, like almost obsessively. And so I'm just a big, big fan of what I love, which outside of my family and friends is music. I'm just a big, big fan of what I love, which I saw in my family and friends' music.

So I'm just a super fan. That is, I love that. That's such a great, cool way of defining yourself. With that, you've sat down with obviously so many incredible artists and beautiful interviews. I've watched one of my favorite interviews as yours with Harry Stahls, actually. I thought that was brilliant.

But when was the first time you felt like a fan when you hadn't met someone? Like when was the first time you felt like a fan when you hadn't met someone like when was the first time you felt like a real fan When you didn't sit opposite that person and you didn't know that person and do you remember that moment? You mean like at a concert and stuff at a concert or like when you bought your first record or like Where was that experience of your first moment? What a beautiful question out the gate, bro Like what an amazing question. Um first time I really, I really realized that it was chemical. It wasn't really something by design. It was reactive. It was

probably going and seeing a band called Split Ends, which is arguably New Zealand's most influential and legendary band. They were around predominantly in the 70s and had a lot of success in the 80s. In the late 80s, they sort of splinted off and Neil Finn left to go and form crowd at house. And of course everyone knows crowd at house and Neil Finn don't dream it's over. And you know, he had a huge, he's had huge success in a huge career. Has if other members of that band, but in their heyday, when I went and saw them as a kid with my mum, I think being in that crowd and reacting the way I did to the music, which I don't really remember. My mum always told me that it was almost like an out of body experience. Like I was like I was in church or something.

Like I wasn't listening to the music in the same way that she'd seen me at home or she was looking left and right. I was somewhere else for the entire... Yeah, in a way, in some kind of trance. And so that's when I think she realized, oh, this, it grabs this kid. And then I think also going and seeing, stop making sense, the movie by talking heads was when I realized like, I wanted to get as close to, because it was different with split ends, they were right there on the stage, but seeing talking heads on that screen, and I made

my mom take me to that movie two days in a row as a young person, but a little bit older, that was when I was like, oh oh how do I get to them? Like they're on a big movie screen right now. How do I get to them? Split ends is down the road but talking heads is somewhere like them as will be on Mars. You know. Yeah that's a beautiful answer. Yeah I love the I love the idea first. I remember I think the first movie I saw in theaters was Cool Runnings. Yeah I love the idea of firsts. I remember that I think the first movie I saw in theaters was Cool Runnings, which I loved. And I got such a great first experience of the theaters, and I was like, well, I don't know anyone who doesn't love their film.

I know, it's just such a great first experience. And then my first album that I properly listened to, so it's weirdly, I haven't talked about this a lot, but it makes sense talking about it with you. Like I grew up in a home where I was encouraged to learn how to play instruments, but we never listened to a lot of music. Interesting, so it was more disciplined

than an enjoyment level. Correct, it was more like an extracurricular academic activity because it would look good on my resume when I applied to a better school later on. And it really hampered my ability to love instruments. And so I grew up playing the piano. I did great up to grade four in the piano. I did grade five theory. I played percussion. All the while not really knowing what listening to music, the feeling is. Yeah. There was no feeling. And then I turned 12 or 13 when I kind of stopped doing

that. And I was introduced to M&M for the first time through a friend of school. So you went from studying an instrument and not really being exposed to the enjoyment of music to listening to M&M? Yes, literally. That was it. That was exactly it. We don't want you eating any sugar in the house and then eventually look, here's a six

tier chocolate dip cake, decadent and delicious and just yeah. And I remember getting from a guy at school and he had the infinite album too, which was awesome. Yeah, the first one. And I remember putting it on and feeling like such a fan where in a way that I've never felt again maybe and that first is so important. But with you, what do you think's changed about

your relationship with being a fan? You said you're still a fan, but like, what was it like being a fan back then and what is it like being a fan, you said you're still a fan, but what was it like being a fan back then and what is it like being a fan back now when you're so close to the industry, you are the industry in so many ways, you define what takes off, what doesn't, you're so close to it all, what has changed in being a fan? A lot and nothing, the simple question is very little, the distance between who I was and that concert and who I am today is very, it's a very short distance. I still get the same sense of,

I can still find myself in that space where I'm lost. I can still put on music and my headphones and go for a walk and end up in floods of tears quietly on my own. It's something that affects me deeply. And I even had to work to hold on to that. That's how I know I'm in the right place in my life, you know. In terms of the industry side of it, that's a whole lot of the conversation. I mean, everything's changed there. And I think finding myself in any room or in any seat or

behind any microphone or in any conversation or in any studio, to me was always a privilege. I didn't know how to get in those rooms. I didn't know how to do that. I didn't come from a background where the kind of music industry I wanted to move into or the area I wanted to move in my life made sense. My dad is from a radio background. So okay, you can say that makes more sense. But that wasn't my intention as a kid. I didn't wake up and want to follow my father's footsteps. He knows this. I wanted to be in recording studios and make music my whole life. And I didn't know how to get there. And I didn't know what a music industry was. And I mean, there was no music industry really in New Zealand.

And in some might even argue that there is, but it's specific to that environment. It's not London, it's not New York, it's not Tokyo, it's not Germany, or wherever. So that is a journey that I can't even put into context myself. I think you know there's more than anyone, right? Like, stay in the moment, absorb the situation, learn and move forward. And I think I was doing that without him realizing it because I couldn't have charted this path.

Well, that makes your journey even more fascinating to me because you're right, you didn't grow up in a space that naturally landed itself to the career you're right, you didn't grow up in a space that naturally landed itself to the career you have today. Do you remember if you could track back for us even before what consciously comes to mind, what was that first step you took to say, I'm going to pursue this because I feel today it's really fascinating that there's even more choices in one sense, there's even more access, but people who are listening today, even myself a few years ago, I found myself having the limiting belief and the hopelessness almost of my dreams

really far away. I don't think it's possible. Those kind of things don't happen to people like me. I'm not set up to succeed. Well, because I think in that moment in time, and I've felt that many times in my life, I think that what happens is we're at our most effective when we have some kind of singularity to focus on, you know, it's like, this is what I love.

This is who I love. This is the person I most want to have this conversation with in my life right now. This is what I need to do to be healthy. And I think when we're focused on things that are ultimately giving us purpose, we manifest without even realizing it. And I think when we get into that place of hopelessness that you've been and I've been and others have been in RN, it's when we split that singularity up into 55 things, 100 things, 1000 things and million things. At best, they contradict each other or counter each other at worse, they actively fight for your attention.

And you can't give your attention to everything. And so that's where you end up just standing still. Questioning your own purpose, your own abilities. Because it seems hard just to take a step forward. Because there's so much noise that's around you. When I've been at my most effective and best for myself is when I've been least affected by that noise and the most focused on what I know is moving me emotionally and inspirationally in my life. Yeah, that's, I've never heard it put that way, but that resonates

deeply. I remember I sat down with one of my spiritual teachers probably when I was, I don't know, maybe like 10 years ago, and I said, I've got all these ideas, I wanna do all these things, but I don't know where to start. It was what you just described that, like fragmented, distracted, yeah, static.

Static, yeah. And I said to him, I just, I don't know where to start. And he said something beautiful to me, he said, he said, open every door that you possibly can. And then he said, the doors that close, let them close, and just keep walking through the ones that remain open. That's amazing. And it was the best advice I've ever got in life.

Yeah. Because I felt like all of us were just standing at one door or ten doors just trying to open all of them. You know all my wife says to me when I get like there, she's like, pull it not literally, and maybe sometimes literally, but she says, pull the car over. And what she means is is that just pull the car over and what she means is is that

Just pull the car over stop driving in a direction that you think you should go in because you're directionless right now And you're actually possibly driving yourself further away from where you should be Pull the car over stop let all the cars drive past you and don't worry about where they're going let the traffic go past You don't worry about it just to enjoy the fact that you're actually stopping, ignore the traffic, ignore everyone else, focus on where you want to go, choose your direction and focus on it. Because right now, and this is, I mean, when she's at her most lol, she's like, because right now you're veering all over the freeway. You're like, you have no idea where you're going. And, me, it speaks to similar truth, which is, we're all in everyday life, entirely capable

of being distracted and distracting ourselves and allowing ourselves to be distracted. And it's a part of life because it's noisy. It's really noisy. And especially the older you get, the more you see, the more you absorb, the more you try to own, the more you try to define yourself through the things you own. This is an awesome space, but you've got stuff in here, right? At some point, if you leave, you've got to figure out where

the stuff goes, you take it, do you leave it, these are all decisions, right? Everything's a decision. And I think that, you know, when we're probably most capable of making the decisions that ultimately charter a path of true, holistic and spiritual, and also just ambition level value is when we're focused on simplicity, simple things. Yeah, it's true. Simple doors. It's true. Yeah, and it's what I found really attractive is a peaceful mind and an internal simplicity allows for navigation of external chaos. It makes us more capable of moving through that thrash, yes.

Correct, yeah. I've always thought about what I've tried to work on a lot and I work on every day because I'm not there yet, is to refine my internal intention to be so simple and clear that then the external complexity which naturally comes with being an entrepreneur and running a business and everything else that comes with trying to make an impact and trying to provide for your family and the people you love. But it's like the reason for doing it

is just one little dot. Oh, I do. When I live my most intersisive, I probably had a few nights drinking some wine. My work is really busy and I'm not really seeing, I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the playbook for that week. And someone can call me and ask me

the most simple thing and I can't make that decision. And it's because to your point, I've clouded my own ability to be decisive. And sometimes it's not my decision. Sometimes it's just stuff going off around you. I mean, the thing is as well about trying to find that internal balance, that clarity internally,

is that that's where the most noise is. I mean, this all pales to that. Like, think about every experience and every memory and everything, and whether it's trauma or joy that we're absorbing all the time. Like, that's why I love therapy so much. And if you can do it and you can afford it, it's something that you would are willing to try.

I'm a big believer in it because it's, to me, it just creates space. It just helps you like down like 30% the trash. And now I have space to fill it just creates space. It just helps you like, down like 30% the trash. And now I have space to fill it with stuff based on my learnings and what I truly know about myself that is a value to me versus the stuff that I either inherited that I never wanted in the first place, or stuff that I thought I wanted

that is not actually good for me. Like just get rid of all that, right? And it's a great way to clear out and because that is to me the noisiest, for me, that is way noisier than what's outside the store. Way noisier. So you say you're not there yet, I'm never gonna get there, Jay.

But I love the process. Yeah, it's the pursuit. But I like the way you describe therapy as a clear out because I don't think that's how it's often always seen. And it's really interesting, right? We all know I need to clean my wardrobe out and you need get rid of some of my clothes and it feels good when you do And it feels good when you do but we don't think about our thoughts that way Yeah, and we have finite we have finite space. I think we have finite ability to be able to process

certainly emotionally and way that we process information and how it makes us feel A lot of our feelings are wasted are waste yeah, because we get driven by ego We get or takes us back to a time of our feelings are wasted, are waste. Yeah. Because we get driven by ego, we get, or it takes us back to a time in our life, we won't happy, or it triggers something that we're, is unresolved and, and our feelings then dictate our actions. But, if we're not creating space for us to be able to fill ourselves with good things, then our, then our feelings, sometimes again, our feelings just won't be, they won't honor us anything. Wow, yeah.

You've reminded me of a study that I read a while ago that said, and it may be different now because of just how fast things are changing, but it was saying that the human brain has the ability to compute like 74 gigabytes of day or a day, but we are just filling it up with, like, we're easily consuming that much. That isn't selected, cleared out, curated. It's just being filled up with what's coming to us.

And we're always going to have to because we can't, like, controls fallacy and we can't dictate how our life works in terms of who gives us one information and how we process things and who tries to, you know, how we unload energy on each other and that's just part of being a human and living in a society. But what it does allow us to do is to be conscious of that and to allow ourselves. The way I always look at it is like a meter in the red, right? If you look at this old kind of like, I don't know if the guy got a gigameter or whatever you got the needle here. And the last kind of 10% is red.

It's always red. Yes, yes, yes. The rest of it's white. Everything's great, bad. Oh, good, bad, right? And if you haven't got the ability to be able to process it properly, then even if you wake up in the morning and you sort of back to sort of 30, because you're restless and you've got some anxiety when you wake up,

if you haven't got the space figured out, the smallest thing in you back in the red, sort of 30, because you're restless and you've got some anxiety when you wake up. If you haven't got the space figured out, the smallest thing in you back in the red, what I try to do is have it go like that and then when it gets to about 70 figure out how I get it back down to 30. So if it does get in the red, I've just, I've got more of an ability to process and to manage those feelings. Yeah, yeah, definitely. One of the things I wanted to go back a couple of steps with something you mentioned that was beautiful where you described your trance like experience almost of being lost. And it reminded me of the visual, which I think, Baz Lerman did a great job of in the

new Elvis movie, like when you see a young movie. I like the movie. Yeah, I really liked the visual storytelling of it. I thought, and the music was spectacular. Yeah, yeah. I thought the scenes of young Elvis having those trans-like experiences was really, really special. And I wonder, what did it feel like when maybe you were DJing, you were creating that you saw people

having that kind of experience to you? How was it like almost being on the opposite end? Well, the reason that I chose to DJ the first place was because I think there's always been a performative part of my nature that I sort of turn my backs to a stronger term. But as I found myself in the media side of things, I guess, connecting the artist to the fan, which I love to do, it meant I didn't really have so much of an outlet for that until I got to radio.

And then I guess that started to come out of the way I broadcast and the way that I played records. It was very sort of like, and I still am, but very much during my time at the BBC, I was very active with the music. I liked to use effects and reverbs and sing along with the songs and pull them up and explode them and end them early. And I just saw them as things to kind of play with

rather than just press play, sit back, think of something to say, wait for the song to end, say it, press, that is actually the most respectful way to treat music in the media. And my favorite DJs do that, not all of them, but some of my favorite DJs, are the ones who pull a song up and play it five times in 30 minutes and scream over it and get me excited

and make me connect to the music in a different way. That's an example of the performance of side of who I am. And so I started to get that outlet and radio and then I was like, well, you know, I miss. And so I started to get that out in a radio. And then I was like, well, you know, I miss being on stage. I miss that being in front of crowds. How would I carve up space for myself as a DJ? And when I started to carve out my identity as a DJ,

I was trying to do so in a way that was built out of the kind of chaos that I love about music, the genre, an indefinable genre, violence of the clash. Like, I don't know what they make half the time, right? The way the bomb squad made public enemy records and ice cube records and just like, whoa, is that a chainsaw? Like, what's going on? Like, how the, what, like, what do they just do?

They stopped that. The way the Beastie Boys did it with pause boutique, you know. You know, done, but done, and I got on my stuff. I'm going back to New York City. What the heck? I do believe I've had enough. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Like, what are they dropping in?

Where are they going? What's happening? Why is this happening? What's going on? Like, it's just full of surprises, left turns, right turns. The whole thing is just completely unpredictable. And I tried to do that.

So I sail that to say that I had to learn how to put people in a trance because most of the time I think I was just hurting them. There's sensibilities at least, you know? I was just like, that was like, whoa, and some kids got it and we're like, this is awesome and some kids were like, man, I just want a house mix.

Like you can just like mix something and blend something, you know? So I mean, for me, like the joy I got out when I was DJing and watching the way people reacted to music was just realizing that in that moment in time, whatever else was going, and I'm sure every artist would tell you this, who gets to step on a stage and do anything in that environment, knowing that in that moment in time, whatever else has happened before or they're worried about

happening after, doesn't really matter. That as far as being in the moment is concerned, you get to share in that with people and you get to try to create an environment with that matters. And every DJ that I've ever played with or toured with, the greats of all time right through to, you know, my friends, that's what really is that if you boil it down to it's primary source, I think it's about creating a community experience that exists in the moment that is free of the thrash of life and is really there to just inspire people to, um, yeah, go into that space that I was in as a kid.

Yeah. That and not have to socialize with people, which if you're socially anxious like me, then be a DJ. It protects you. Yes, it does. You never have to speak to anyone, again, for the rest of your life, you don't want to, you know what it expects you to. I was going to ask you that, you talked to the importance of therapy and you were saying

that's worked for you. What was it initially that guided you in that direction? A, why did you specifically choose to therapy as a modality to support you and whatever you look at? And what were you looking for from it? Our parenthood. I became a father and um I realized in that moment that I was ill prepared to beat to to share my best um and so I had to do the work in order to be at my best and

I'm incredibly grateful to my wife and to my friends and my family for encouraging me to do that. At the time, at my lowest point, I think. And it was really hard. But in doing that work, my life just changed for the better in every way. And ultimately, you know, gave me the ability and the tools to be able to like and love myself enough to love the people that I love more than anything in the world completely. And without compromise. I think if I hadn't done that work, I think I would have always either felt compromised in my ability to love others, certainly love my kids and my wife, and be loved. And I think that, you know, that is the thing that really ultimately makes me the saddest is thinking back to that alternative and how that feels for people. I think to be loved and to love

completely is the purpose. I think that is it. Someone who is feeling that sense of love and commitment has to let go for us to exist. And we have to let go to move on. And somewhere in the middle, it's just about the ability to be loved and to love. Do you think that you fell out of love with yourself or that you were never in love with yourself in the first place? Woo! I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know.

I don't know. I was definitely loved. My mom and my dad and my brother, I mean, I come from a very loving family, but I think that it was a compromised environment in terms of it was a divorced environment. So you see sides of relationships and life and the family structure that are shocking to you as a kid and it's hard to figure out what your identity is to yourself let alone what you need to be for

everybody else. I wanted to fix it and I couldn't. I didn't have the tools. I was too young. I didn't know what to do. And I guess some were along the line. I just let's let's touch with the simple ambitions of life, which are like which is try to put yourself in an environment which is as joyful as possible around people that you love and just try to find as much balance as you can. And I just think, yeah, I don't know, man. I definitely came from a background that was, it wasn't as similar to in terms of the cause and effect

as billions of people. I mean, relationships, start relationships, and I love my parents. In the end, it was the right decision for them. It was very tough for me as a kid at that moment in time. And I think what I had to do was take responsibility for that, rather than either ignore it or project some kind of really pointless blame on a scenario that was completely out of my control.

It's like, okay. And so the only way I could really sort of, the only point in my life I could do that was when I realized that I had something that was more important than the blame or more important than the ignoring. And that was being a dad. He was like, all right, like, I need to take responsibility for how I'm processing this or not. Otherwise, this beautiful future is, I'm not going to get the most out of it in neither of

that. What kind of dad do you want to be in? Why? I want to be a father that, and hope I am a father, that provides our kids with a sense of unconditional love, a very trusting father who really leans into the principles that I hold dear, which are just love and support and honesty. I just want our kids to know that and they do that I'm happy if they're happy and I want them to work hard and I want them to be focused on if they're lucky enough to find something they love, which both of them seem to have done. I want them to know that there's no substitute for the graft and for the work and, you know,

for the dedication and being respectful and of your opportunities and making them most of them and keeping a keen, very sharp radar for when the door opens ever so slightly, know how to walk in and know how to stay. But equally, I just want them to be happy. And I want to be someone who they they feel like I say, they feel unconditionally understood. That takes a lot of work on your part. Well, especially considering that I didn't even understand myself. So, but I'm very lucky, I mean, if we're going to go there, I will just go there. Like, you know, I have this incredible partner for life and my wife who has been, I don't know how to tell you, man, I mean,

she's just incredible. Sounds it for sure you man, I mean, she's just incredible and... Sounds it for sure. Yeah, I mean, you get it. Even through the advice that you said. But you get it, but you get it. You get it. You find someone in your life that makes you better, and then you start to figure out how you can make them better

because it can't go one way. And then you've got some special. Yeah, my wife is exposed to me, flaws that I would have hidden for so long from the world because I could. And then all of a sudden, in a very non-judgmental and non-critical way, someone helps you realize, not even it's so subconscious as well. It's not even like a teacher. It's not like having a coach or a guide or someone who's telling you or showing you. It's just someone who effortlessly reveals to you parts of yourself that you know they're the only one that sees it. Well, love is an unspoken language lot. I mean, that's why families, if you have a very loving

unit around you, you're able to communicate with us saying anything. And I think in a different way when you develop your own family, your own relationships that ultimately grow with you over the course of your life, it becomes more of an individual experience that builds from within that out. The language changes again, but it's still an unspoken thing. How did you meet? Oh, wow. I mean, Cara and I met when we were kids.

And I always say it was love of her sight for me. It just took her like 10 years to figure it out. But we weren't together for that time. We just, we're just using it on small and we knew each other in certain circles. And we were just kids growing up and running around. And then I moved to London and she followed about six to eight months after that, just on her own and just looked me up,

because we knew each other from back in the day and back home and she didn't really know anyone out there and she's like, hey, I'm out in London, if you wanna get a beer. This is a true story. We went for a beer at a pub, which I think is called the famous cock. I mean, there's a lot of cocks in London.

The surf beer, right? Yes. There's famous cocks and there's roosters and cocks and there's like, you know, the tems on Henleycock and there's lots of cocks. So we went to one of those cocks, I think on Regent Street and it was me and I host Shazamami telling you this,

but I'm sure she wouldn't, because it's a great footnote in our story. It was me and a good friend of ours who still is a good friend of ours called, host and cat Deely who I knew from MTV. Who's just getting her break in MTV and doing some great stuff as a young person on TV. And so we went for a pint and that's how I reconnected with her and then from there our story started to unfold and would have to drink wine to tell the rest of that. But it was just long and brilliant and unique, like everyone's story. But yeah, I've known who's, I mean, I always joke I had to move halfway around the world

to marry someone I'd known most of my life from home. When you've known someone for that long, I always wonder how you allowed that growth on both sides, because I guess when you've known someone for that long, you've been three different people, or at least more of who you are, and she's becoming more of who she really is. How have you continued? Because you said you've been over together for over two decades, something like that. Yeah, nearly 24 years. Yeah, 24 years have been married, you said, exactly, which is a really long time. Congratulations.

Like how was that conscious and intentional or you've both just been flowing to stay together that long? To stay together, but more importantly, it seems and it sounds from what I'm hearing that you've kind of grown together during that time and allowed the growth. I think you can stay together unless you grow together. Otherwise, you grow apart. Well, you know, we got married quickly, you think you can stay together unless you grow together, otherwise you grow apart. Well, we got married quickly. We were together and it was like,

oh, this is meant to be. And then for one reason or another, our marriage was really dictated by other things. It was like a visa issues and she'll have to go home. And because we didn't have a, I could stay in London and she couldn't. And so, really came down to like look, if there's a future for this, then could stay in London, she couldn't. And so, you know, it really came down to like, look, if there's a future for this,

then this has to be the only way forward. And so we got married and it was a registry office and with two witnesses, you know, and it was short of telling our parents, which we did about two weeks beforehand. I mean, it would have been a lot, we would have a load. I mean, it was so fast. And, you know, I think both of us felt like it was forever,

but I think it's kind of too simplistic to say that we were did. I think we were just trying to keep it going. Yeah. I think we were just like, look, this is really great. We don't know what the future holds, but if you have to leave and I stay, it's gonna make it that much harder for us to find out.

And in a way, that works for the kind of people that we are. I mean, not to speak for her. I'm very conscious not to do that because she's her own person. But I think both of us just liked finding out, and we're still finding out. And I think that's what's cool about it is that we didn't go into it with some kind of major pressure with no disrespect. I've been to some incredible weddings, and I think you should be entitled to celebrate your union however you want. But for us, not feeling that there were sort of

150 pairs of eyes on us, you know, like, this is for life, everybody, like, I mean, it just suited us to just get going, just get to work. Like, we just work at one day, we're like, let's just get to work. And we have, and we've been working at it ever since, and it takes work, but if someone said to me once, you know, even the days when it seems like it's really hard work the next day, like anything in life, the hard work pays off. Yeah, absolutely. So just so you know, we had 400 people outweighting and I'll tell you why, because in an Indian household, your parents are obliged to invite every person that's ever invited them to their kids wedding. So it's so you could literally you could start the ball rolling early

and just invite everybody with you know them or not. And then just be like, I am set for the rest of my life. I have so many great experiences I'm gonna have. Literally, and they only get better, right? So it's like literally my parents and my wife's have a list of people that have to be invited to the wedding because they've been to their kids' weddings. Love that. And so half the wedding list is people that have to be invited to the wedding because they've been to their kids' weddings. Love that.

And so half the wedding list is people. You're like, who are these people? You don't know. My wife still talks about it. We're like walking around our reception, take a look at my wife's like, I have no idea where these words are. And that's small for an Indian wedding. I have friends who had like 500 to 1000 people at their wedding.

We were somewhat given the way. It's not as similar because it's not like you're signing like some kind of emotional contract for these people. You know, it's not a dream. It just comes down to the union, to the team. And it's like, it either works or it doesn't. I don't hold my parents. I don't have any, oh, will again,

to hold my parents or hold them responsible for the end of their marriage. It just, it's ceased to exist. Yeah. And it happens all the time. I've got good friends going through it right now. Same, yeah. I just think for us, we try to keep things really simple. We make each other laugh like a lot.

And if it's not the same thing, it's at each other. It's at each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She gives that to me. Like, she really dishes out a lot. You know, like, you're a moron, kind of stuff, you know? And I am. She really dishes out a lot. You're a moron. You're kind of sad. And I am.

So it's an easy joke. And then I think beyond that, we like each other's company. And we know that we're not always going to agree. But we know that it's not going to get in between the simple principles that keep us together. She's just smarter, better, way hotter. You know, she's just, I definitely married her. It's beautiful.

You talked about having social anxiety and being a DJ and talking about how we were joking about how it's easier to get away with that. But obviously in your career, there's been so many opportunities. As you said, with your children, you want them to be able to walk through the door and stay there. And that requires one to kind of negotiate

through that social anxiety sometimes. I'm sure you've had to walk into the rooms and pitch yourself and hold your own and negotiate and then stand your ground and whatever it may be to talk to lawyers and you know there's so much to it when you're in and I feel like there's so many people who are listening and watching where social anxiety is at a point where it cripples them. It stops them from walking to room starting that conversation. What was what were you saying to yourself? What were you working on in order to move through some of those uncomfortable experiences?

I got to stay in an Airbnb on one of my recent travels and it definitely added a whole new layer to my travel experience. I got to explore the neighborhood and I tried the amazing restaurants. It really made me live like a local during my trip. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even knowing. Maybe you have an extra bedroom or in-law unit where friends and family come to stay

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That's awful. And I should have seen it coming. This case by case, my friend was having a function the other night, beautiful function, a total, a reason to celebrate. And I nearly was like, a reason to celebrate. And I nearly was like, I can't go. There wasn't any valid reason for me to not go in my mind from a cerebral kind of, oh, that makes sense. None of it made sense. And then there were times, and you know, I'm skipping out the door. It just depends. I mean, for me in terms of like

breaking it up into two things, because you make, you made some good points. Like in terms of like the social side of it, I try to be kind to myself. I try to allow myself the space to make a decision that's as pressure free as possible. And then more often than not, I find good valid reasons to continue forward. I feel that if I apply too much pressure on myself, most of it's unreal. And then I'll end up just not going anyway. And then I'll feel bad because the unreal will evaporate, and I realize that I made a decision

that wasn't based in the real. So I try to, I know myself enough to get ahead of that, and just be like, you don't have to do anything. Don't go. And once I just tell myself that, I'm like, oh, well, there's a couple of good reasons to go. You know, and I start to bring myself forward on that. In terms of the work side of it,

and getting in the room, I don't know what to tell you. I mean, a few times when I know that I've had to step up and do something that's ultimately helped change the shape of my journey and therefore my family's journey or whatever, that's when you start getting into the intangible a bit for me, into the sort of the magic of the moment

and what makes performers athletes, surgeons, I mean, I'm going lofty, but anybody, I mean, heroes, people do out of body things. It's nowhere near on the same level and I'm not trying to put like getting in a room and pitching a best shit at the same thing, but it exists in the same space of like, I don't quite know why, what's motivating this extra gear, but I'm using it. And I think true greatness comes from people who know how to access it more consciously than I do at this point in my life.

You know, you're talking about, you know, the Michael Jordan's of this world, who can, the Beyonce's of the sword, who are like, I can, you know, they don't shy away from the occasion, they level up, they see it, they know what it is, they understand, and I'm just talking about the arts now, respectfully to everybody else, like if I start going in and apologizing for every other outlet or occupation or thing in life,

it's more important than the arts to everyone else, then I'm just gonna end up in the like the future position and this podcast is gonna be over. So I'm just focusing. No, based on your background. I know how it goes, I know how it goes, there's more important things in life than music and the arts, I get and this podcast is going to be over. So I'm just focusing based on your background. I know how it goes. I know how it goes. There's more important things in life than music and the arts.

I get it and I respect it. But for me, that's the word I'm in. So I'm just going to focus on it. So in the performing arts, you know, I watch, I watch people all the time step up further than they have before. And I just think it's something in us that is there. And sometimes the occasion requires it and sometimes you meet someone who has found a way to harness it.

And that is when you start dealing with the greats, like the people who just, they see it. They manifest it, it happens, but then they recognize that it's happening and then they recognize the feeling and then they remember that feeling and then they recognize that it's happening and then they recognize the feeling and then they remember that feeling and then they practice that feeling and then they get the ball in with 0.3 seconds to go every time. And that's like, that's when you're dealing

with just another level. I don't know, there. But I've had a few moments of my life when that gear's kicked in and I love it. I mean, you know, the job I'm in now, I mean, I nearly got on a plane and flew home because I just was like, I don't know where this is going

and I'm unhappy. I don't think I don't feel like I can do this and I had a big meeting in the next day and I went in the next day and I had a great meeting and it changed everything. So, who knows, man? I mean, it just comes out nowhere. But I'm more interested in the people

who just somehow know how to like kick that shit into action. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they exist. Yeah, absolutely they exist. Yeah, absolutely. They exist. Yeah, there's a beautiful book called Flow. Don't know if you've ever come across it. I forget the author's name. It's like, me, hi.

I think it's a name. If I mess it up, everyone, please do not be mad at me. I think it's Cheek Sent Me, hi. I think that's how it's said. Me, hi, Cheek Sent Me, hi, the book's called Flow. And that's what you're describing. This Flow State that people experience where you see free stylers, me, Hitch, sent me, I had a book called Flow. And that's what you're describing, this flow state that people experience where you see freestyle as rappers, musicians, you know, athletes, artists where time stops, but it's really fast and no one knows what's happening.

Like, it almost feels like time slows down and speeds up at the same time. I've had a couple of conversations in that state, usually, like on the record, like interview situations where it's like there's been such a nice mood in the room. And I feel there's such a strong, like, two and fro going on and just the question, the answer, and then the question, the answer. And it's just being, I'm like, wow, and then someone's like, okay, time, it's been going for like two hours. I'm like, it was like that. I mean, you must have done it, too. It's lovely. It's really cool when it happens like that too, because it's human experience for somebody else, so it feels really nice. I also, you know, my social anxiety, I think, I think it's unique for everybody.

I mean, I have no problem walking in a room and being around people, but there's a difference between being present and fitting in or playing a role that you think is going to serve a purpose for that environment or that party or whatever, and just being able to be comfortable in yourself. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not always and very often entirely comfortable. I just have figured out how to maintain. There's always something in me that's felt I feel that like my skin's a little

bit too tight or my brain's not really focused on what someone's asking me and I'm, yes, I guess that's where I'm, that's my form of social anxiety. Yeah. And I think I find that most people at events, especially in the entertainment and the arts feel that way. I don't know many people who don't feel that way. Yeah. That's good to hear. I mean, I definitely do. Yeah, whether it's out in a award show or whether it's out of red carpet or whenever I speak to people behind the scenes, that's the number one emotion that people are experiencing. And everyone's feeling it in a different way. So what do you think that is?

I think it's because the way events are organized, they're not crafted for community and connection. Yeah. So the challenges that the way it's been built is not set up for people to come in and feel. So I went to one place that was, I went to Cannes Lions last week. I'd never been to the Lions Festival before. It was my first time to have been to Cannes. And it was crafted for community.

Like I felt like you could walk into any space, you'd connect with people, you could hang out with people, you bumped into people walking in and out of staff, no one had an ego where people were like, you know, on a high horse or like- Maybe that's part of a evolutionary state. I mean, we were sort of- That's 75 years of that first thing. That's what I'm saying.

And maybe we need to actually just start looking at every single micro experience rather than like, we're all gonna evolve, like, something's gonna happen, we're all gonna evolve, we're saying maybe we are, and maybe it is just like, right down to the smallest thing, like an event like that, where being able to walk in there

and for you to feel connected to people and like you came away with something that was meaningful not just valuable, maybe that's gonna inspire people to do it in multiple different places. I mean, I would like that. I've gotten better at just maintaining. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when you're younger, it's like,

oh my gosh, everything rests on this night. And then after a while, you're like, can we go? You know, that's exactly what it is. You're spot on, that's exactly what it is. Like when you first, I remember that when I first moved to L.A., I went somewhere, I was like, oh my god, if I don't make this move right now, that's the end of my career.

And then like, yes, later you're like, actually, it didn't affect it. So I was a friend of mine who was working with at the time, so one of the industry was like, is that any of the freedom to success when I first got to LA because I wasn't in 65 parties a night running around doing an everything? And then, yeah.

And my goal has become very clear to you that my intention is always like, can I find one person tonight who I can bear myself? Like, you have one person that I can fully be myself because then that, then I've fully been myself. So how do you know who that person is? I know it could be changes, but is there a constant to that? You can get a sense pretty quick. Obviously, and like we're saying, it's

respective to what you personally are interested in. So for me, I'm hoping that I can have a conversation like I'm having with you today, which is meaningful. It's purposeful. It's vulnerable. It's open. It's thoughtful. It's about growth. It's about being better. Like, but when I walked in the house today, we met for the first time and we sort of hugged each other's gaze for a second. And it was like, all right, cool, we've got this moment here. It's more than just like transactional.

All right, if we're gonna do this, let's do this, and let's start and see where this relationship goes in the future, right? It's not just gonna be like, good to be on your podcast next. Yeah. Is there a technique to how you find people? I wouldn't say it's a technique. I think it's more of an intuition.

I do believe it's energetic as opposed to like, ask these three questions. You know, like I don't think I have a like a formula like that, but I feel like you can usually tell by someone's language, body language, and emotional languages to whether you're on the same frequency or vibration. I find over time, I've been able to sense that. And I've also realized where your ego wants to force it with someone Because there's personal gain or Big sets big suffer winds Yeah, you can tell when it's like oh there actually isn't a frequency, but I'm pretending there is or hoping there is or Trying to manufacture it because I think this person can do something for me or I'm useful to them or I feel significant because I'm being useful to them.

Yeah, I think also realizing that you don't want to be that to someone, but also someone's trying to be that to you. Correct. It's really important for anybody going into any area of life and it's something that I think people should try to develop that radar from a young age because we'll save you so much time and energy. And also, it's fine to acknowledge that you're doing that to me and I'm doing that to you because we're in a trade. That's totally fine. Great work, great things come out of that.

But friendship is different. I'm really realizing how important my friendships are. And there are multiple types of friendships. There are people I love to just hang out with and sometimes some of them I like to talk industry with and music with. And then not the people I'm gonna call up and have a hard to hard with about something else.

And there are others that, you know, I know I can call up when I'm at a low point or they can call me and there is that. I think it's just understanding that, you know, we all serve a purpose. And if you're in someone's life, you've got a purpose, just understand, try to understand that purpose.

That's what being thoughtful with your thoughtfulness is to me, like, maybe I'm not the person to pick the phone up and check on someone's wellbeing because that's not the kind of friend I am to that person, but they have those friends. Doesn't mean I'm not their friend. Correct. Yeah, we have different relationships

with different people in our life that serve us in different ways and we serve in different ways. And knowing how you do that for someone is so important. It's really important and yeah, that's a big stuff for me and this lesson, I think. Tell me why to figure that out. I was always trying to be all things to everyone, I think, for a lot of my life, trying to fix everything, be all things, be there's be that, be funny, be caring.

Sometimes just be funny or not. Just try. That's a great boy. I love that. Yeah, that's actually really powerful to think that. Like, I think you're so right. We want to be all of ourselves to everyone. Yeah. Well, because we're covering all the bases.

Yeah, covering all the bases. Yeah, and there's that sort of legal in like, we want to be considered funny and this and smart and this. But how do you manage your ego in a situation like this, where you, I mean, you said at the very beginning, you have the number one health podcast in the world. Congratulations, by the way. Like, that's a real thing to have a number one of anything,

but to have a number one in an area where you're adding some value and supports the people. But the very nature of a number one, anything, is really that's just like, you know, bourbon for the ego, right? It's like number one, anything, is really that's just like, you know, bourbon for the ego, right? It's like, number one is like, by its very nature, is connected to an ego experience. How do you continue to build around success, but manage what's your relationship like with your ego in this environment? Yeah, it's a, I would say it's a constant conversation on a daily basis between my conscious self and my ego self.

I think that it's something I have to be vigilant of on a daily basis because of the world we live in and the environment we're in. Just someone that I mentor message me this morning and he's kind of having a real moment in his career and things are going well and he was saying the same thing to me goes, Jay, I don't think this is healthy for me. Like, I'm worried about my ego and I was like, this is amazing. The fact that you're even aware and you're conscious and you're, because 99% of the time, you have the success and then it falls apart

and then you think about your ego. And so for me, I, there are a few things that I do. The first thing is that I always look at how I compare to the work I really want to do. So the impact I really want to make in the world is not just downloads or views or whatever else or numbers. It's actually, I'm trying to create a journey for everyone that connects with my work, from entertainment through to education, through to personal enlightenment in how they define that term.

And to me, it's like, I'm trying to create that journey by building steps that I know from the journey that I've been on, the journey that I'm still on, and the journey that I've learned from the greats, and trying to put those building blocks in place for people. And my goal is, unless I'm helping people walk that journey, the number is insignificant. But the beautiful thing is, because by the way, I'm not anti-ego. Like ego serves an important role.

No, this is a great conversation. You know, there's ego and ed, and those two things need to be managed in a way that, like I said, a sense of self-awareness and understanding of what is gonna press your buttons, both positive and negative, but what I'm interested in is like, it's interesting because because you're building this thing internally from within your own vision, your own, what inspires you, it's come from this tiny little fire that you're building into this beautiful thing that helps people, but you can't help more people without your ego serving

a purpose or role. Yes, absolutely. And so I think engaging it and being aware of it, the only two options you have, because I think that when you try and ignore that, there were probably even times in my life where I tried to suppress the desire to do and make an impact because you think it's ego, not realizing that then it's just brewing.

And now you're envious of everyone else. So that's why there were humility so interesting. Because we kick around humility all the time, like it's a really important positive part of our makeup. And it is. It can be. There's a time to be humble. And there's no universally positive humility. There's no universally negative ego.

Complexities cross both of them. But it's interesting, isn't it? Like you can find yourself if you deny your ability and what you love and your talent and your ambition too much, you find yourself in a false state of humility. Yes. And you can't help the people you want to help. So ultimately turning your back on what you should be doing.

Yeah, and to me, ego, when it gets dangerous, is when you feel better or worse than others. And so I feel like there's a difference between doing what you think you're meant to do and doing it well, then thinking you do it better. Like I am friends with so many people in this space who are number one in their fields, and even in a similar field in a different way.

Like I know a phenomenal set of scientists in this space who are doing incredible health and wellness work, and a number one in the way. I know a phenomenal set of scientists in this space who are doing incredible health and wellness work and a number one in the way they do it. But it's like I have my own version and I have my own way and method and that's what I'm excited and have an ego about, I guess, is the idea that I'm doing what I'm doing, but it's not a, I doesn't make me better than someone or worse than someone. And I think- So interesting, isn't it though, because growing up, like, in music, there is an innate competitiveness of wanting to be the best. And in sports, you want to get the high one, the coach that will look you in the eye and

tell you that that attitude is going to get you to be the best in the world, right? So it's so interesting how we relate to this thing that I think we know very little about. Yeah, which is what I think some of the best athletes, like I know that Cristiano Ronaldo, who's the biggest football and soccer star in the world for anyone as well. Is he though? I mean, him and Messi.

Yeah. Yeah. We just did a little Rolling Stones beat us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. The world is divided. My TikTok feeds me Cristiano Ronaldo. My one feeds me, miss it.

There you go. We're a complete human being. And now we're in the US. And so Messi, everyone's excited because Messi's coming to India, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm saying, I have to think that way in order to perform at my best. So he's dividing it into a mentality versus a reality. Correct, yeah, exactly. That's beautifully said, yeah, exactly. And I think that that's what's so fascinating that if you sat down with Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant

who I had the pleasure of interviewing or today LeBron, it's like, I'm sure they have to feel that way, but it's whether like if they were, all things said and done behind closed doors, you know, I'm sure they have an opinion on stuff that you can say when you retire too, that you couldn't say when you were playing.

Are you a manifesto? I would honestly say I've been an accidental unintentional manifesto. So I don't believe that I ever set out to say, okay, I believe in manifestation. I know how it works and I'm gonna do it. I don't think that I ever set out to say, okay, I believe in manifestation. I know how it works, and I'm gonna do it. I don't think I ever had that. I've just had things happen in my life where I can track back when I first visualized in my mind

and then it came to fruition, but I never intended for that to happen. And so when that happened, did you ever have the intention to try to kind of do it more or master it or anything else? Or we just like, I love the curiosity of that. I like to have that. I love the curiosity and I love the magic of it because that also makes me realize that

it's beyond me. And I like that. I love that. And yeah, the mystery of it is that's cool. That surrender of it that I don't, I love the idea that it's happening and it's happening in my life so subconsciously. Yeah. That it also

makes me recognize that there is more than me to this. I was saying that I'm more like you than I am like some of the other people who I know who are continually searching for that feeling that they can then end with some success. Again, yeah, I know people who I consider to manipulate material energy. They have that ability and I don't. Ryan Reynolds. Ryan Reynolds is a master manifesto. I'm so sorry, but you cannot take Rixam and do that

unless you know how to bend energy systems. Yeah, absolutely. That's the point. I sell billion dollar telecom companies. Oh yeah, that meant, yeah, I, and I don't think there's a right or wrong again. Like I don't think so many focuses on manifesting in the, in the sense that the way it's been packaged

or marketed is a bad thing. It's just not the way I function. Can I ask you another question? Is it a cool fast food question? Of course, it's a real conversation. It's a loving thing. I want to talk to you about ambition, like what your relationship is with your ambition

because you've already built something massive and you want to continue to reach more people. So how do you manage your ambition into something that is balanced with your life? I think it's evolved over time. So I've always honestly said that when I first started, I was working 16 to 18 hour days and seven days a week, but I never missed meditating. And that was always my grounding practice. I was like, I'm going to meditate and I'm going to work my socks off because I kind of had that moment of, or at least what I've heard when you were saying that about your kids, like, I remember the first time I felt the door open and I was just like, I never

believe this door would ever open. Like, I have to be so grateful and responsible for this. And that was through meditation. That was no, no, no, that was, oh no, spiritually that had happened. I mean, like externally with building a platform. God, I got it. Like when you realize like, wow, I have a shot. I have an opportunity to do this, you know, like I was happy and content. And anyone who knows me the back then would verify this.

Like I was happy and content doing what I do today for the 10 people that showed up every week for 10 years. And I was so happy. I didn't feel like, oh, there's not enough people or like, oh my God, I'm not like, I just felt grateful and happy that even 10 people would show up. And I loved it. And then at one point, I did feel I was like, I feel this message matters. The people that are coming are having great success from it. I think it should reach more people. So I should attempt to. And when I attempted and I had that first glimpse, then I was like, wow, I'm so grateful and I should be responsible for this. And I shouldn't take this, I should take this as a gift. And I should give my heart and soul to it, not just live off this momentary, you know,

success. So for me, that's, to me, the graft was me expressing my gratitude back to the universe to say, I see that you've given literal me a shot. And I feel my only way of expressing my thanks and appreciation back to you for this gift is to show you that I'm willing to work to make the most of it. Correct. So that was like a couple of years where I did that. As soon as I started doing that and things started to grow externally, I started to realize, all right, this is not sustainable, like on an energy level. And so then I cut back, so then I was like, I'm going to go out five days a week. So I took my weekends back.

I was still working evenings. Now I'm at a point where I've taken my weekends and my evenings. Because that to me is like, that's the crucial moment where perhaps some maturity and some life and some distance between youthful ambition, the desire that I've got to go and take every opportunity I can, versus where you were at that moment in your life, really served you. Because that's the moment when I think it can consume people and relationships get hurt and get torched.

And we chase something so far down the road that we forget where we wanted to go in the first place. Totally. So yeah, I mean. That's a really great point. And I think for me, it was like, I was a turning point for you that month. Yeah, and at the beginning,

it was just like, all that matters is this and my wife. Like those are the only two things that matter. I don't really have time for anything more than that. And now I'm at a point where I'm working backwards where I only work, I have the privilege of only working 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. and don't work evenings or weekends. And now I can't take care of my wife

and my friends and my friends. Because you're in the era of no. Yeah, and I think there was an era of complete yes and there has to be, and there has to be. There has to be, and I don't wanna lie about not, like, perfect balance. You can't get to know without figuring out like where your line is and you can't figure that out

unless you push yourself. And that's what work is. That's what the working era is. Like when you just grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. And, but yeah, I'm a fan of balance. I was talking to someone about this year, the day about ambition, cause I have friends of mine who are never gonna stop.

And I love them for that. And they just to them, to them, it's all out there. And why would they ever not grab every opportunity or explore the next thing and no numbers too big and opportunities too far away? And I love it and I've definitely been that in my own way. But I'm reaching a point in my life, which isn't a saying I'm going to turn down opportunities or I'm wanting, I'm reaching a point in my life, which isn't a saying I'm gonna turn down opportunities or I'm not sending it down. I'm not semi-retirement mode. I wanna do my best work over the next 10 years.

But I wanna do it in a way that is joyful. And to your point, really make gratitude like the number one driving force. I think to be truly grateful, you need to allow yourself space to be grateful. I think we kicked the word gratitude around a lot. I know I've been definitely the kind of person who's like done a hundred things in a day,

and then what I've had two minutes in a day gone, I'm really grateful. Ah, thank you so much for all the, and it's like it's not a checklist item. Like, you gotta feel it. Yeah. And I think to do that, and I guess that's what meditation for, I'd never been able to find the space to meditate

and calm my mind down enough. I know I will. I just can't force it. Yeah, you have a naturally zen energy though. That's cool. Yeah, it's like, I would have thought you were a mediter. That's just quite nice. Yeah, which is cool. Yeah, you have that.

I always said like, I mean, Kobe Bryant did meditate, but he was the most, like he had the most gravity around him of any person I've ever met. Like he was just like, time, like things stood still when he spoke and there was that, but he did meditate.

But I feel like you have a real, like there's a piece around you, even though it's not, you know, if it's not from that, which is really beautiful in an honest, hard-earned piece. Yeah, hard-earned piece, yeah. But I though it's not, you know, if it's not from that, which is really beautiful in an honest part of the piece. Yeah, hard and peace. Yeah.

But I think it's true. Like I think also, you know, it's what we're saying about the yes and no, there's also a different time in life for sometimes it's scale, sometimes it's speed, sometimes it's strategy, sometimes it's sincerity, sometimes it's, you know, like it's, I think what you realize is that if you just go speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, that doesn't actually make any sense. Well, you miss your opportunities more than you actually grabbed on my thing.

Yeah, you think about like being a Formula One racer. It's not speed at every turn that helps them master the track. Speed's a massive part of it, but... Only when you need to go fast. Only when you need to go fast. Like round the bend if you just go fast, because you're like, no, no, no, I just got to beat the other guy. You could potentially turn over and throw the race away.

That's why I love boxing so much. Like I've just started like, like, to boxing training and stuff. It's my wife boxing. Ask the most fun. It's the greatest exercise I've done. I've struggled with exercise my whole life. Fits and starts like everybody else.

No pun, well pun very much intended. But yeah, this is a whole other level, I love it, right? And the reason I love it is because like my mom has dementia and she's in the latter stages of dementia, I feel, and it's been really tough to witness, but I've also watched her sort of want to hold on to memories and the whole cognitive awareness thing has become very present for me.

And what I love about boxing is that it's really, it's 100% mind and body, and it's about strategy, and it's about, people just think you just bash stuff, it's so not. The most tiring thing I do when I'm working out boxing is the inside work. I'm not actually punching anything. I'm just trying to push this guy off.

Like that's the most exhausting thing out of any of it. Like that punching the mitts is like just rhythm. That's the driving fast. Correct, yeah. And that's what I mean. I think we just live in one mode of like speed or slow. We think those are the only two things to play with. Yeah, yeah.

And when you box or if you drive a car or whatever, and maybe you start going, oh wait, there's so many other dials to play with here. Yeah, yeah. And so I think I'm trying to, you know, I've realized that and I also realized that. And I also realized that it's the same as a hike, like getting up the hill is different staying at the top and getting down again and going deep into the valley. Like it requires a different skill set. And so I try and, you know, I try and live a very disciplined life, health-wise, in order to be able to

be high performing. And I value all of that, like the high performance world. Like I value all the things. You have cheat days, though? Do you rely, so for chance to slip out of routine? Always. I mean, you have to. Like this morning was one of those morning, so I was like, Well, you just got back off tour for a start, so you're all over the show, right?

No, no, no, no, no, I wasn't. That's the thing. I allow myself, like, small windows and then I go back, but like this week, I haven't missed a single workout, and this morning, last night, I told friends that I was going to work out with today. I go, guys, I'm sleeping in tomorrow. I'm not going to be there. I'm tired. So I woke up an hour and a half later than I usually wake up today with the best thing I ever did and I loved it. Do you sleep well? I sleep. Yeah, that's a big thing for me.

I actually read you. That's been something you've had to work through, right? Like, dude, I've never been. I've not a good sleeper. I mean, you sleeper. You know what's crazy and I was telling a friend of mine who's in a band about this this morning, because she was like, I'm just trying to kind of come down off tour. And I said, listen man, let me give you a bit of advice and I was going to work for you. And I'm telling you like, I read somewhere something ages ago where Rick Rubens said that he goes out every morning when he wakes up and exposes himself to natural light. Yes. First thing he does is expose himself to natural light.

And then I someone else said it, someone else said it and I was like, all right, this is like too many things pointing in this direction. So and I haven't had a good night's sleep in a long time. And so I started going outside and it was so strange. It was such an alien experience for me to stand out in my yard at like 6.30 in the morning, like in my box of shorts, like, I feel like a weirdo. This is really weird. And then the second day felt less weird and the third day felt less weird. And I started putting shorts on because I was like, you know, I'm going to enjoy this.

I have been sleeping like, like I wake up and my head is just like heavy on the pillow and I'm just rested. Like that works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the KDM rhythms thing? Yes, yes, I mean, it's crazy. Like, yeah.

Yeah, no, they're all ancient practices though. I know you do yoga too. And so the ancient yoga asanas called the Suriya Namashkar. So what that means is sun salutations. And so the ancient practice was the first thing you do in the morning is you salute the sun, which was that bathing and gazing and paying respects to the sun.

And that was what was happening. Like your circadian rhythm was kicking off. Now you're on that. And we said, and we read that and we think, oh, it's only a worship to the sun. It's all worship based. But actually, it can be worship based and it can also be lifestyle-related.

Exactly. They were figuring out how to get a good night's sleep. Exactly. Yeah, they were figuring out how to get vitality and energy as well. And that's what they were paying gratitude to the sun for and your day started with gratitude. But for everything, not just for being the sun, but for the light, the heat, the warmth, I mean, for everything that it provides, right?

So we have all this literature and all these opportunities, like even in this conversation, to be able to just dive into all of this, and there'll be the people who roll their eyes, and they're probably not listening or watching, and there'll be the people who are open and absorbing and really sort of try and make positive changes and help others further on the line. But where do you think we're going wrong? Like, if the ancient species were saluting the sun, increasing their ability to be able to manifest good things, understood the power of gratitude, understood the power of rest, understood what they needed in order to maintain that.

This is thousands of years ago. Why do you think we seem to be getting either further away from that or trying to get back to that, but we haven't actually gone on from that? Yeah, I mean, it's a big question. And one place I really experienced it beautifully was when I was in Hawaii and every morning we took. Which island? We were on the big island. So in Kona.

Kauai is like, I've heard, I need to go, I need to go. I've never been to a place where the energy, the ley lines and the oxygen coming up from the ocean is so amazing. I've heard, yeah. I've heard, yeah. I need to go next year and you'll have to give me all the recommendations. No, I've got no recommendations, it's not that kind of place. The beautiful thing is it's just pure local.

It's not like, go. The beautiful thing is it's a low. It's just pure local like it's like go here go here go just rent and just get a really awesome little air being being near the ocean. That's my recommendation. That's it. Okay good. And just barefooted to the coffee story every day. I love it. Anyway, so you know no no no and so I remember going to Hawaii we'd get like a kayak every morning one of their I forget the official name of this big like canoe kayak they have a name for it jumped in we'd go out they name for it. Jumped in, they had their own offerings, which I loved learning about, they'd offer it to the water. So what I find that where we've gone wrong is that we've unlearned and reconditioned to a new way of working so hard and so strong and for so long that undoing that and resetting our habits to be healthy for us

is the biggest challenge. So discipline is 99% of the challenge. And I think the problem is that because if you think about school, which was the only thing that had the opportunity to discipline us and parenting, those are probably the only two things that you have. Certainly our introduction to it. Your introduction to it.

As school discipline, you always knew what you were gonna do. You always knew what the next grade was. You knew what the next class was. It was all mapped out for you. You never actually had to discipline yourself. And so when that runs out at age 18 or 21, whenever you finish school, you now are left your own devices to figure out discipline.

And you've never actually been taught how to build a habit, how to break a habit, how to grow discipline, how to end discipline, right? You just, and that's really what's missing. Like my wife has single-handedly coached me to better eating habits than anyone ever has in my life and I had to live with her every single day, you know, for the past seven years for her to do that for me.

And I'm like, well, if I didn't live with her, I don't think I would be able to do these health changes. Like to me, eating pizza, burgers, you know, a sprite or a seven up. Like, that was my like, every other day. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, I married my wife and she's just like, you know, I'm sugar that as a big. Yeah, and you know, like, and I'm like, well, wait a minute.

It took that much coaching and guidance and steer. So I don't think anyone's at fault. I think it's more that society set us up to not know how to, the biggest skill you can learn is how to build a habit and how to break a habit. Yeah, because because one of the best things that we're capable of doing, but we tend to use against ourselves

as the ability to absorb and translate. Absolutely. And it's like, all right, if you can manipulate that, if you know how to put things in, because we're really complex, but also quite simple. Totally. Everything's a routine, right? Everything's a pattern.

It takes one person to do something cool, and we're quite a, we live in a singularity pretty quickly. It's just like, you know what I mean? It's just like, oh, that's cool, let's all do that. Yeah, right, we all do it. And so, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, I think you're right, we allow ourselves, and to your point about discipline,

we need to have the confidence in our own abilities and in our own determination to be disciplined enough to do what's right for ourselves. Right? Yeah. Because otherwise, I think we are susceptible to the shiny lights. Yeah, of course. And I think that discipline comes ultimately through going what is truly valuable to me goes back to what you were saying That that singularity of not having this fragmented approach to I want to be this and I want to be this for that person

I want to do that, you know, it's it's well What do I what do I care about you used to overwork too, right? Like that was a big big thing for you What did it lead to did you ever get to that brink of burnout and pain and that's what? Yes, absolutely, man. I had physical pain for like five years. What chronic pain, like? I wouldn't say it was chronic. It was a consistent, there were consistent pains. Where in the body? Like, arm, finger, neck, lower back hip. Wow, a lot, yeah, a lot of leg. A lot of pressure points and a lot of it really was, well,, yeah a lot of pressure points. And a lot of it really was, well,

there's a couple of things going on there. There was some stuff I had to process from one side of the brain to the other that I hadn't done. So stuck in my body. So once I actually started to work that through in therapy, and you did that all through therapy, that's it. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, my guy put me to sleep.

Once he basically broke it down for me, I was like, for 20 minutes, woke up and three weeks later things started to dissipate. But also, I was absorbing a lot into my body of the work and the stress and the overwork, because I didn't have anywhere else to put it. And so my body was trying to protect me. It was like, well, we'll store it.

But after a while, that body gets filled up and then it starts to ache and hurt and the pain starts to happen. And I really, genuinely thought, I'm just going to live with these aches. This will be it for the rest of my life, right? As long as it doesn't kill me, I can live with it. Why would you want to live with pain? So I'm so glad that I was able to kind of start to unlock that. So verbal release. You're all the therapy you did was traditional therapy or there was more even just the concept that actually In my mind in my brain. I have been storing it in an area

Where my brain is telling me to put it all in here and what I need to do is to create space and here to put it somewhere Which has infinitely more ability to be able to process and distribute and remove and and and and release So I need to get it over there and it's simplistic because that sounds it just me. I mean, it was a concept and perhaps that's rooted in truth and perhaps it's not. There will be people who are saying, we're talking about another people who'd be like, ah, that's exactly right. But you know, the way that it was, it was, it was explained to me was that I had been storing it in my brain because I didn't have the ability to be able to deal with it emotionally. And so I didn't want to. So once I figured out that I didn't have anything to be afraid of, just talk it through, get it out, release it, let it go.

It started to transfer and the pain started to disappear. That's the first time I've heard about that in therapy. That's cool. But I was working through it, like working around the clock, because again, it's a great distraction, isn't it? Getting up and going to work is a great way to spend your time avoiding things that you don't really want to deal with, and it's also more productive. So how do you work them? Well, you achieve them. Well, you tell yourself you're okay. The more you tell yourself you don't really want to deal with. And it's also more productive. So the harder you work them,

the more you achieve them, the more you tell yourself you're okay, the more you tell yourself you're okay not telling it. Absolutely. So it's like, okay, you know. And the opposite is also true, which is why back to your argument of balance,

like the opposite is also true, where you have your true idol and there's no direction and there's no pursuit and there's no work. Oh yeah, for sure. There's an infinite amount of ways to do it. I'm just, that's how I did it. And, you know, there's a difference between working hard and working and working hard, right?

Like for me, it's like, I love to work and I love to work hard, but I don't have to work hard to be working well, right? I can do it in a way that is like, you know, efficient and good for my balance. Excuse me, good for my balance. My decision making got better, my ability to delegate got better. I became less stressed out about the things that I didn't have any reason and or right

to be stressed out about. I stopped feeling I needed to respond to every single email and every single thing and I started to trust the process. And I don't know, you have to ask my colleagues but I feel like I'm happier and better at what I do. So yeah, I'm a big believer in just because you put in the hours and doesn't mean you're actually getting the most out of it. Absolutely, absolutely. You've sat with so many of the, you know, most iconic artists of our time.

And this generation and, know you're a brilliant interview you ask questions you listen so effectively like it's it's fun to watch like genuinely fun to watch. Who do you feel was like wise beyond their years or like an old soul but because most of my young like a lot of a lot of them are very young. Who did you find was kind of like, you know, I find the conversations that leave me most inspired and feeling like something in my life has changed. And I've learned something new. Tanned to come from the people who reached a point in their life where they're not trying to sell

something anymore. And they don't have to do this. It's there's some value in the conversation and perhaps they're looking for a learning themselves. The truth is, more often than not, I find elements of that in everybody because I'm not trying to squeeze juice out of the lemon. I'm genuinely not trying to sell anything at this point in my life.

I love music, so it's easy for me to talk about it and to say it's great and to back and forth about it, but I don't feel any need and I don't feel there's any requirement for me at this point in my life to try to sell anything. When I go into the conversation and I don't have to answer your question, because no one immediately sprang to mine because I think I'm not I'm not existing in a hierarchy anymore. Yeah, that's a beautiful answer.

I'm not thinking like this person surprised me or this person was not charming or this person was wise beyond the years. If you'd asked me that five years ago, I could have given you an answer like that. That's a beautiful answer. I love that. But I'm trying to go into every conversation whether it's little yadi or Neil Young or Billy Eilish or whatever. I'm just trying to go into a conversation from a position just like us of what is the most interesting and human experience that I can have. And I remove as much of the cell as I can and I try to get into a place with people where I don't really have questions anymore.

And I don't really go in with a framework anymore. I just try to feel the music, retain how it makes me feel, and just get to that as much of that feeling as I can in the conversation. And so everyone is surprising, and everyone catches me off guard with their observations because I'm not going in with any prior observations or any kind of Premeditated framework. Yeah, I'm not coming in going. I think I know what you're like Yeah, and I will say that the one only time I've ever had a proper like long-form conversation with Justin Bieber changed That's what changed it for me because I I thought I was going to get a great conversation focused on an album that served the purpose that the label and the management and the artist wanted

it to serve and served the purpose that Apple Music wanted to serve and I would get something out of it too. And that conversation became something very different, very quickly and I realized that he wasn't interested really in selling anything either on that day. And that was the moment that I learned how to listen and stopped trying to control the narrative and gave myself the space to go with it and not panic. It's just a moment, it's just people, stay present, listen, observe and try and figure it out. So from that point forward, everybody that I've spoken to really, I get there with everyone in some way, shape or form.

Yeah, that makes sense. It makes so much sense. It makes beyond sense. I love it. Every time I have a conversation with anyone before that, I would come in with so many different metrics of, you know, questions and orders and this and that and expectations and whatnot. You know, if you ever get a chance to sit, if you haven't already opposite Neil Young, you cannot go into it with that. He has no interest. It's like, this is all that matters.

And if you think you're gonna be able to carve out some shape with him, then he's just gonna be like, look man, it's not what I'm here for. I'm not interested in it. So I really like this. Yeah, I like this. Yeah, I love that. Thank you for saying that.

I don't know what to do with the old method anymore. I used to have one. I was unable to do with it. And even though I thought myself falling into it, because I'm worried, and I can't stick to it, everything you need to know is in the answer, right? Every question you need. You have a structure when you're untrained,

and then when you're trained, it's spontaneous. It's like a... I just wasn't listening, Jay. Yeah, I was just going in, trying to figure it all out before it even happens. Which is very in line with who I was and who I've been to now. And I have people trained too, I think, sometimes, right, mate?

Yeah, I'm just terrified. I mean, a very anxious person. I got to know the, you know, my therapist always says, you know, anxiety is based on not knowing the outcome, right? You scared of what the outcome's going to be. And so, you know, I need to prepare for every outcome. And at the end of the day, what I really need to do is just start and listen. And it will be what it will be.

Then this has been such a special honest urban conversation. I've loved every bit of it. And we end every on purpose interview with a fast five. So these are questions we do ask everyone. And every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum. Okay.

So it's sure answers. So Zen load these you are fast five. The first question. Did they change every time? No. Okay. They stay four out of five, the first question. Did they change every time? No. They stay four out of five, stay exactly the same. Okay, hit me. Okay, so the first question which we've asked everyone

has ever been on the show is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Be yourself because everyone else has taken. Nice. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Eat that, it's not that hot. All right, question number three. Hot ones at me. Seriously, hot ones call me. My kids won't ever respect me until I'm on that show.

I love that. Question number three, what is the one thing that if you'd want your children to remember every day, what would it be? You are loved and you can love. Love that. Question number four, what's something you're trying to unlearn right now? That I don't have to wash my hands every time I touch a surface and I don't have to check the taps. I'm always trying to unlearn my OCD compulsions. How does that affect life? What is that? It's because being my life is so long that I'm, I think the most frustrating thing is I'm just, I'm used to it. That's what frustrates me the most.

If I ever stop and take a step back and realize and actually try to have a step back for myself and realize what I'm doing and what it must look like, not that I'm ashamed of it, or that I worry about why the people think of it. Just for my own sense of awareness, I get very frustrated and really try to tell myself, like, if you don't do this routine, the world is not going to end and I have varying degrees of success. That's hard. But I'm always trying to unlearn it. Fifth and final question that we ask every guest on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? That we would allow ourselves the privilege of listening to each other before we act.

That we would do our best to understand there are many points of view and that level of understanding and ultimately that knowledge would allow us to come together to fix things and not keep breaking things. So needed, Zanglo everyone, if you've been listening or watching wherever you are, whether you're walking a dog, whether you're cooking, driving, whether you're at home, whether you're at work, wherever you are. Thank you so much for listening and tuning in.

I hope that you'll tag me in Zang with the things that you love, the things you're going to talk about this week, because of this podcast, the things you're going to share with your friends and your family that resonate strongly with you. Please tag us both on Twitter or on Instagram or on TikTok or on any platform you use, sharing your favorite clips. I love seeing what connects with you all. And I hope this conversation is connected with you all as it has with me. So thank you for listening in Zane.

Thank you for your generous time and energy and presence and I'm really grateful that we got to listen and connect with each other today. So thank you so much. It's the same Jay thank you. Thank you. If you love this episode you will enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what, her thighs are cute. Okay, this is something that I've been waiting for and you are absolutely going to love it. My wife, Rady's book Joyful,

is launching on February 27th. I am so excited for her first book ever to be in your hands and be in your home and fill it with joy. So go to j-o-y-f-u-l-l-book.com to pre-order now for an exclusive video and a daily wellness guide made by Rady herself. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more.

On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. Hey, it's Debbie Brown, host of the Deeply Well Podcast, where we hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness around topics that are meant to expand and

support you on your well-being journey. Deeply well is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well with Debbie Brown is available now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Namaste. or wherever you listen to podcasts. Namaste.