Our Ancestors Were Messy - A Love Story For The Ages!

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Nichole, Zakiya and Emmanuel read three drama-filled love stories from historic Black newspapers and select the one that they believe could stand the test of time. Starring Zakiya Gibbons and Emmanuel Dzotsi.Support this independent production and access bonus content at https://ourancestorsweremessy.supercast.comStay in touch at [e-mail] the show on Instagram at @ourancestorsweremessyFollow the show on TikTok at @ourancestorsweremessyLearn more about the show at https://ourancestorsweremessy.comListen on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@OurAncestorsWereMessy SOURCESSupport the reporting done by the legendary Oklahoma Eagle still in print today!Check out The Colorado Statesman, archived at the Library of Congress.

The Secret Adventures of Black People Presents. Our ancestors were messy. Okay, we're all archivists. Today, two future ancestors sift through archives to find the perfect love story. Ideally, it'll be timeless. It'll have some message that the children, the citizens of 2030, will be like, thank you so much. It's all so clear to me now. Okay.

This is what we're looking to do. Oh, I love this. The only question is, can they agree? I'm biased. I would say my story. You don't say I do say This episode stars

Podcast hosts and producers Zika Gibbons How do I say this without Completely putting all my business out there Emmanuel Jochi Different raised different time But it's giving Mr. Wickham You know what I mean

And Nicole Hill What do you think the story's saying about love This is our ancestors Were Messy A show about our ancestors And all their drama Oh my God, yes Okay, to start, can I have both of you introduce yourselves in whichever way you feel represents your essence and who you are?

Wow, my essence. Your essence, yeah. I usually, like, jokingly, I'm like, I'm a chaotic bisexual based in Brooklyn from Atlanta. I don't know, I just feel like that's me in a nutshell. I also work, I'm a podcast host because I don't like leading with, like, my work. Because I'm like, I'm more than my job. I was going to say, that's like the description of, like, every other, like, locked up black woman in Brooklyn.

I love it. I was just like, Bajax, your podcast, I'm from Atlanta. Yes. Period. Yeah, I'm Zakiya. I'm not even that into astrology, but I do feel like my big three

does perfectly encapsulate me. I'm a cancer sun, Libre Moon, Sagittarius Rising. So I'm emotional and chaotic. Perfect. Perfect. A perfect intro. Both of them.

How will I pick? How will you follow it up? Oh, it's not going to give what it's supposed to give. But yeah, my name is Immanuel Jochi. I'm from the UK originally by way of Garner and Dominica. And I live here in Brooklyn. I'm a podcast host and producer. And yeah, that's it.

What kind of a black are each of you? Oh. I forgot this was a question. Damn, I wish I thought about this. Oh, man. What kind of black am I? Mm-hmm. What kind of black are you?

I mean, I'm British, but I'm not really like a dance and Idris Black. I'm like, I don't know, I'm part of the legion of like, bald, slightly bearded, short of than six foot, but actually 5-11 black men you see walking around Brooklyn. You know what I mean? What about like the, like, category of black? Are you like a skater black? Are you like a...

I'm like a... I'm a skater black. Well, no. I'm trying to think. I like a Neo-Soul black. But not one of the Hotepi ones Yeah, yeah And that's important to differentiate

To that's important I don't claim them Okay All right, Zakiya, what about you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, what about you? Oh, goodness Well, I'm from Atlanta So I feel like that says a lot

I am like a Throw That Ass in a circle Kind of black I am Talking really loudly in the movie theater Screaming at the movie screen kind of black. Also, okay, my friends, they tease me lovingly. I

had a group still really close with them group of black girlfriends, but they'd always tease me for listening to quote unquote white people music sometimes. Like, I'd be you know bumping DMX and all that. Me goes, but then I'd also listen to Animal Collective. Who among us? I mean, what are you going to do? Oh,

you like me are a suburban black? I was going to say, are we all suburban black? Yeah, that's what it is. We're suburban black. Yeah, suburban black. Suburban black. Have you ever made a time capsule or been part of the making of a time capsule? Yes.

Yes, I have. Okay, what? Tell me his story. So I spent part of my childhood in Belgium and the school I went to there in like the year, to mark the millennium like 2000, decided that we were all going to put something in there and bury it. And I went back to that school for the first time in like years and years, like maybe two years. like maybe two years ago and the school doesn't exist. It's a housing development.

They've built over it. I'm never getting that. Damn. Oh, no. Do you know what you put in there? Do you remember? Yeah, I do. It's kind of embarrassing.

You know how like teachers used to ask you to like write letters to yourself like years later? Yeah. Nobody asked me to do it, but I just did that. Oh. But what was embarrassing is I do remember what the first line was. It was pretty bad. It was like, hey, Manuel, if you're reading this, this may be the smartest thing you've read and cried sometime.

Oh, my God. Just to know that that letter is underneath the housing development right now. Keep it buried. So we are in the 1920s. Okay, this is like also the time period of like finger wave, hair. Oh. Prohibition. Flappers.

I was going to say, like, we're talking full on pimp suits. Yes. Like, I love it. So, 1920s, we've got the vibe. We've set the same. Okay, we're all archivist. You're an archivist in a flapper outfit, Zakiya. You're an archivist in a pinstripe pimpsuit.

Okay. Like, Emmanuel, we've got the vision. And we have been tasked with putting one item into a time capsule that is going to be opened in the year 2030. Ooh, okay. Somebody else is going to do the civil rights part. Don't worry about it. Okay. What we, the archivist, have been tasked with,

is figuring out the one right story to include that will demonstrate how black people thought about love in the 1910s, 1915s, 1920s. Ooh. This is meant to be representative of our approach to love, and ideally it'll be timeless. It'll have some message that the children, and the citizens of 2030 will be like, thank you so much.

It's all so clear to me now. Okay. This is what we're looking to do. Oh, I love this. Okay. Okay, yeah. All right, so we're both on board. All right, we have before us three love stories that were published in turn-of-the-century black newspapers,

and we're going to read all three and then select just one to send ahead of us to 2030. So what are we looking for in our ideal stories? I'm looking for some, like, great micro-grimbinger. long distance, like... Oh, we want drama. Love and duty, go in the way type stuff, you know? Like, yeah, that's what I'm looking for. But also, yeah, also some steam, you know, a little heat, you know?

Prohibition, people dancing, the jazz, and doing all kinds of shit. I mean, I feel like this is a cop-out because this show is called Our Ancestors' Ramesi, but I'd want a little mess. I want to clutch my pearls a little bit. I want to gasp, like, oh, oh, you know? Some steamyness would be good I love a twist, I love a turn I also love a villain

I don't know, someone where I'm like oh I don't know about you you know Okay so we want like the future citizens of 2030 to be entertained We're like attention black community lean in Here we go It also maybe like a lesson to be gleaned

Okay All right I like it So our letters are coming from one of two papers today The first being the Colorado statesman. So let me tell you a little bit about this paper. Yes. The Colorado statesman was officially founded by two men. Founder number one was the first black man to be admitted to the Colorado bar.

His name is Edwin Hackley. Founder number two, Joseph D.D. Rivers. Ugh, the names. Everybody always has such a good name. He also studied law and he ran a real estate business and he was a journalist. Because back then you needed to be like three to four things. This is a talented 10th. Their job is to save us all.

You cannot have one job. Their parents were slaves. Nobody is impressed with one job. I feel like we kind of do that now. At least I'm a host, story editor, writer, Dog Walker, blah, blah, you know, I feel like we've been staying on that tip. This is where we got it.

Yeah. So they found the paper. Now, these other two aren't officially credited by like historians, but both men do credit their wives. So that's Mrs. Richie Rivers and the famous opera singer, Miss Azalea Hackley. Ooh. Wow.

Okay. So the Colorado statements based out of Denver, and its purpose was to serve the black community of Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, and New Mexico in the 1890s. That's when it started. And they were serving them some of the only news that they could access about the fight that black communities across America were staging for civil rights and for equal justice and for like common human decency. This is how they find out about it because the white press, of course, is not going to cover that. So that's on the front page. The rest of the paper is one of my favorite ones to like. read for fun because I feel like these two dudes or these four people were just looking around the earth and being like, what a time to be alive.

Like, wow. Just look at this new tech in Cleveland on the docks. Can you believe it? I was opening all these libraries. Wow. That's like a lot of what I read in there and I just think it's sweet. I feel like that's how I feel. We love a gratitude practice.

Love that. Yes, exactly. And they have that. Now they're very respectable and like stuck up. But then they're also, if you read between the lines, they're just being like, like, wow, what a country, you know? So the couples, they've launched this paper. They're also launching mutual aid organizations all over Denver.

They're doing, everybody has to be doing everything they can for the community at this time. Yeah. But Azalea is our famous opera singer, and she can't be in Denver all the time. So sometimes she goes away to Europe and all around America and she sings, sing, sing, sings. Oh, wow. And Edwin's like, boy, am I lonely. Uh-oh. So he starts writing letters to a friend that he's made.

Chicago's premier investigative journalist and a fellow newspaper editor herself, Ms. Ida B. Wells. Oh, okay. Everybody's like, you guys are sending each other a lot of letters. Like, maybe at first they were about the business. Obviously, they're both in the newspaper, journalism business.

He's a lawyer, so they're probably talking about cases. They're both heavy into mutual aid. So maybe it started out professional. Oh, they're heavy into mutual aid. Well done. Well done. Thank you. I was waiting.

I was lying. I was like, there's an opening here. There's a joke to be made. Here I go. So people are whispering. And Azelia hears about this. And she's like, I hate Ida B. Wells. You know I don't want you talking to her.

What are you doing? Beefing, beefing, beefing. Eventually they split. And Edwin's like, you know what? I've been more of a playwright this whole time anyway. So he moves to Philly and does that. And he's like, Joseph, you take the paper from here. Wow.

So Joseph and Richie keep the paper going for the next 40 years until he passes away. And then the paper continued on until 2017. So that's a 132 year run. Wow. Wow. Talk about legacy. That's incredible. Yeah, they change hands a lot.

They change names. But with these black papers, people, like, really do try their best to keep them going for as long as they can. Huh? Yes. So that's incredible. Also, I'm just still stuck. I'm sorry, I'm just still stuck on someone having beef with Ida Buells. Like, I just did not ever imagine that.

Azalea did not like her. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So our editors, they're clearly hardworking. They're activists, but they also had love lives. And love stories do regularly appear in the paper, like the one we're about to cover. So, without further ado, Emmanuel. I said adieu because you're British. No, I appreciate it.

I appreciate it. You're welcome. Okay. This was published Saturday, October 25th, 1913. The headline is, after many years, by Janet Reese. Many times he had proposed, and just as many times she had refused him. But they remained good friends. It was just after one of the offers and refusals that, half-gestingly, half-seriously, they agreed to meet in a favorite roof garden,

10 years hence, so that each might know what the other had reaped. The girl declared that they must put the finishing touch to a romantic situation by wearing red roses and the youth laughingly assented. Even if he married, he was to keep the appointment. It would be but a meeting of one old friend with another, the girl said. She, of course, would be readied to none, not with her glorious career to follow. Five of the ten years passed, and the girl had. girl and youth were now man and woman and had married each other.

Fame had come to the woman, misery to the man. The woman had found it necessary to dispense with the man or the career, and it was the man who had been told to go. Damn. Sorry. That wasn't ruined. That's this to me. Five more years, alternately slipping and dragging away,

brought the night of the engagement, made ten years before. The man had not heard of a woman for a long time. The last he had heard was that she was on the continent. She had written some books. He'd heard of them but had not read them. They had been the cause of his desolation. With a low, mirthless laugh at his own foolishness, the man took the elevator to the roof garden,

a red rose nestling in his buttonhole. and with an odd, choking sensation, he sought and found the little corner which she had liked, a corner screened by drooping palms so that the two could be alone with the stars and music. He came with no thought that the woman would be there. No doubt she had forgotten the romantic agreement of ten years ago. But it pleased his fancy to keep the appointment.

Besides, by closing his eyes, he could almost see her on the other side of the table, and imagination appeases the hunger of loneliness for a while. He even ordered the dishes she liked best, remembering with a reminiscent smile her fondness for ice cream. For what seemed like a long time, he sat there. The dinner grew cold and the waiter cleared it, and a large tip away,

with a curious look at the generous patron. At the far end of the garden, an orchestra was playing, and perhaps it was its heart rending Kady, which made him dream of the girl, so alluringly near did she seem that he reached out his arms towards her. But the little table intervened, and she seemed to smile mockingly at his vain attempts.

It's only a dream, he told himself bitterly. And surely the gods were cruel to torture him so. Strange, when he looked again, she was still there. Well, when he tried to crush her in his arms, he would find but thin air as one dozen dreams. Yet ah, it was true. As he held her close, he felt the beating of her heart, the cling sweetness of her lips.

Only the waiter saw, and he merely smiled. For many strange things happened in a roof garden. Batman was down bad. Oh my God. That riveting, Emmanuel. Oh, my God. It was written dramatically. The person, who wrote that, Janet?

Janet knew what she was doing. I was transported. Janet knew what she was doing. Wait, so was that a Janet, so this is fiction? Janet wrote that or this is a retelling of a true story. They just put them in there. So I don't know if it's fiction or not. It could be a dramatic retelling of a true story, but it could also be totally made up.

Oh my God. It felt so real the way you said it. Right. Do you think she was there? I was literally on that show my seat. Was she there? Do you think she was? I don't know.

I think she's, this is mighty. I think Janet reads. is the woman. And I think she is, she knows that she stood in love. And so she's writing, it's like fanfic about her own her own curving of this guy.

Wait, no. That's what I think it is. That's what I think it is. Wait, that's brilliant. I see that. Wouldn't that be, I think that's what it is. That'd be brutal. Wow.

That would be brutal. Wait, okay, wait, I had questions. I got very caught up. Okay, what do you think the story's saying about love? Oh, well Also, one, it's interesting They did get married

And I just think In any love scenario Or love so scenario Where you were talking about Hypothetically getting with somebody You're basically Are really with them Yeah

I think all of us Have like a number of great loves in our lives And you know You have those ones that every once in a while You can picture them And it feels so clear What they meant to you or whatever They're not in your life

And I think everybody has a little one of those. Little heartbreak somewhere within. And unfortunately, this man, his, has him hugging thin air and broad daylight. Damn, fuck. He was. He was. The waiter's like, sir, are you okay? Legitimately.

What did it say to you about love, Zakiya? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I agree with you, Manuel. Like if there is some kind of pact, it's like, just get together. You all like each other. Like, just do it. And I feel like that kind of situation ship messiness, but kind of like romantic messiness, that is timeless. And it brought a smile to my face knowing like, oh, people were like this even way back then, you know?

And I also, I kind of love to see a man down there. It is. I do. Yeah, I do too. Who does it? So that also kind of was like, L.O.L. Okay, are we worried about what this says about black people? Like, how do we feel about what this will make the future citizens of 2030 think about black people?

Do we care? Are we pressed? What do we think? What does it say about black people? I don't know. The thing that I like about it is it makes us, if this was your representation of what black people are, you're like, wow, these guys really were kind of whimsical, you know? Like, in a time when a lot was happening. people were fleeing, like, real racial violence. Like, you still have time to, like, you know, go to an expensive restaurant where you don't even know the other person's going to show up. You can still travel abroad and be somewhere on the continent, so to speak.

Like, I don't know. I think it's pretty good. I appreciate that this man is vulnerable enough to be like, I'm going to show up to this meeting spot, and I'm going to openly pine. I will have my arms outstretched to thin air, you know, and be open to rejection. I feel like this man was ahead of his time. And you don't see a lot of that kind of representation.

And I don't know. And they just seem also just so classy. Like imagine just like being like, oh, have you read so-and-so? Have you heard this book? It's like, that's my ex. I don't know. That just feels so like. It's a good look.

Classy and cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? I don't know. It's just kind of giving like high society. but also intellectual, but also kind of artsy people. I don't know. Are you just talking about yourself at this point?

Yeah. Okay, so this is a maybe. We've got a maybe. I, okay, if I say yes, does that, then I'm voting against mine. It's too soon. But this, I will say this is very promising. Like, I would put this, it's dangling above the opening

of the time capsule. Okay, okay. Let's go to story number two. is coming to us from the Tulsa Star. Let me tell you by the Tulsa Star. It started in 1912. It operated out of the Greenwood neighborhood in Oklahoma on what we call Black Wall Street. Yes, indeed. Its editor was A.J. Smitherman, who was also Justice of the Peace and an attorney. We've discussed this. You cannot just have one job. He was seen as a leading influence in both connecting and speaking on behalf of the 11,000 members of Tulsa's black community and then across

all of Oklahoma. They call the paper their voice. So, Smitherman used that voice to advocate for self-reliance and to celebrate anything that any black Tulson or Oklahoma did at all. Like if you hosted a nice tea party, birth, trips out of town, your mom came to visit. Like, if you would put it on an Instagram story today, he would publish it in the paper. When the paper is talking about the outside world and everything that's going on, they're denouncing mob violence and lynchings across America. and they're criticizing Tulsa's city administration for their discrimination against black citizens. AJ Smitherman hires a managing editor,

the pioneer journalist, Theodore Bowman, who'd worked across Texas and Kansas and was now in Oklahoma. So together they grow the paper, and it becomes like the town square of the black citizens of Tulsa. Everybody loves it. I like to picture the two of them,

like, in their offices, overlooking Black Wall Street, suspenders, obviously toasting each other, being like, wow, here we are. We're really doing it. Wow. But Theodore was not content with just being a managing editor. He's an ambitious man.

So he's like, I got to go, AJ. And then he leaves and starts a rival paper called the Oklahoma Sun. Oh, no. Then on May 31, 1921, a white mob descends on their community, and they target AJ and his home in the Tulsa Star offices. They destroy them both. and the black press across America reports on the violence in real time

and they call it, as we come to know, the Tulsa Race Massacre. Yeah. AJ survives all of this. So I like to picture him going to Theo's home who'd also survived. And Theo's like, AJ, what are you going to do? And AJ's like, I have to leave

because the white press and the mob is saying that they burned everything down and killed everybody because of me. Like they had a lot of reasons, but they said in part it was because of the star and because he was running his mouth and that's why they targeted his house and that's why they burned down the paper

so he's like yeah what are you going to do and Theo's like I'm a stay before he leaves AJ sells his one-time friend one-time rival the Tulsa Star and then AJ moves to Buffalo and he starts the Buffalo star oh

Theo goes to the ruins of the Tulsa Star and he finds their printing press and he takes that and And with that, he starts the Oklahoma Eagle, and with the help of the remaining black citizens of Tulsa, they keep the paper alive. And today, it is the oldest continuously published black newspaper in Oklahoma. Wow. Wow. Should we sing the Black National Anthem real quick?

Oh, my God. Yes. We're going to back up six years before the massacre, before the breakup. So Greenwood, Black Wall Street, they're thriving. Theo and AJ hand in hand, best friends forever. And in the midst of all their race business that they're attending to, they love to talk about love. And so each week they published a little love story

with an anecdote to entertain or maybe make their readers think. And Zika and I will be bringing you the next story. I feel like you should be Abigail. Wait, is that the daughter? Oh my God, I was actually going to say I wanted to play the mom. Okay. Because I feel like, but I can... We got parts. I love this.

But I can play Abigail. I can play Abigail. Okay, yeah. Because I feel like you could be, you can really bring the drama to your role. Okay. So, this is from the Tulsa Star. It was published Saturday, October 23rd, 1915.

This article is called Ended the Argument. I'm playing the role of Mama. Listen to me, Abigail, said Mrs. Wise to her daughter. Remember, please, that I'm older than you. wisdom comes only with age. Yes, Mama. Why are you so cold to Mr. Willing, so distant? He has my endorsement as a suitor.

Yes, he proposed. What answer did you make? I declined. But he said he wouldn't take that as final. Of course not. He'll persist with my consent, child. Why did you refuse to go motoring with him? That's like driving, because cars are a new thing.

Why did you refuse to go motoring with him? He is dissatisfied over your manner, which I fear isn't nice. Has he done anything to offend? He wanted to kiss me. And didn't? You refused? Child, when a man pays court to a woman to a girl,

and is serious about it, when his intentions are honorable, there's no harm in a kiss. But Mama, isn't a kiss something that should be mutual? Should a girl let a man kiss her when she has no wish to kiss the man? Certainly. When the man is a man of character and honorable purposes,

you mustn't forget that such a match as you can make isn't the fortune of every girl. If your dear father were with us, he'd advise you as I'm advising you. Is a girl to marry a man much older than she is because he's honorable and has money? Perhaps not solely, dear, but Mr. Willing isn't so old, only 45.

And I'm 20. You were 20 when you married Papa, weren't you? I think you told me so. Yes. And he was 22? Yes. And you were both poor and worldly goods, Grandma wanted you to marry a rich baker.

But my child, you don't realize that times and manners are very different now, very different. Now everything is money. Everybody wants money, and persons without money are absolutely submerged. But people fall in love still, don't they? Young people? They may think they're in love sometimes, child. But life these days dissipates romance. Look at the divorce courts.

But I'm talking about a man I don't care a box of candy about. When you were of my age, you... I'm sorry, saying that. Sorry. I don't think a box of candy about that. We got to bring that back. But I'm talking about a man I don't care, a box of candy about. When you were of my age, you no doubt thought just as I'm thinking now.

You've even told me you eloped with Papa to escape marrying an old man. You are in love. You aren't in love, and the situation is different. Yes. The situation is different, but I am in love with Charlie Lyman. That boy, with no money, no position, no... But haven't we money enough? What foolishness.

And I let you go to the tennis court with that chap yesterday. We didn't go to the tennis court. Where did you go then? We... We... We got married. Oh, shit. Damn.

She's like, Ma, I am no longer a virgin. I'm a wedding woman. Sorry, continue. She said I gave my box of candy to Charlie. I was gooped and gagged. That's the end. What a good ending, cliffhanger.

I wanted more. What is the saying about love? How do I say this without completely putting all my business out there? I feel like I understand. both sides. Like I said, you know, I'm an emotional cancer. So I usually love love. And so I

Abigail resonates with me like, oh, you know, who cares about money? It's all about love. Love is enough. But given the way this economy has been going, and in our industry, all of our layoffs, I'm single. I've been struggling so fucking badly financially that now I'm like,

I get it. Like sometimes, because I historically date unemployed stoners because I'm like, but I love their art or they're so funny or they're always available to hang out with my, you know, that's great with my freelance schedule. Yeah, let's get high in the park. The three lines out well with an unemployed schedule. Yes. I would love to get high at Prospect Park at 2 p.m. on a Tuesday. That's how I had been dating. But then just I've been, you know, these financial struggles are.

are real. And I'm just like, damn, it would be really nice to have a partner who makes money and can help me out with these bills. You know what I mean? You went from the stoner to let's build together real quick. Yeah, I went from stoner to capitalist, like, who's the other half of my power couple? And I hate that term. But I'm like, oh, my God, how the ties had turned. So I don't know, I feel like this story has everything. Also, the twist at the end that she was already married and like repeated her mother's footsteps. So, yeah, I was hooked. I'm a sucker for, like, you know, a little forbidden love story. I do think, yeah, I don't know.

I worry for that girl. I really, really do. I think that man is trifling. Do you think Charlie is? You don't like Charlie Lyman? Listen, any man putting on my, you know, earlier 20th century hat here, you've got to come correct. didn't it? You've got to go to mom,

and ask for that hand. You've got to come a calling there. Yeah. You've got to call. He didn't do any of that. That's true. And he knew that he'd asked permission to go with her somewhere else and then got my bear loped. That's a no-no. She could be ostracized by her whole community for something like that. That is so true.

Wow. But I also, and you remember me of another point, I wanted to make... I also love this story because, especially for back then, I love that there's this young woman who has, like, a sense of agency and how she was, like, kind of, like, bringing up conversations around consent. But I didn't think about it from that point of view. It's like, what kind of man would just, like, be messy like that? And it's just like...

Hmm. It's giving, you know, different, raised different time, but it's giving Mr. Wickham. You know what I mean? Like, it's like... It's... Wait, can you explain who Mr. Wickham is? You know, pride and pleasure this bad villain guy, you know, out here, taking young girls away from their families, the laws of romantic promises,

disgracing them. Disgracing them. And being forced into marriage with them just to retain some shred of their societal dignity. Now we've turned on Charlie. Now we're getting similar to like, Charlie. I don't know what to believe. But Charlie was doing what her dad did. So Charlie is probably a lot like her father because.

they eloped. She was supposed to bury that as a baker. But then, but here's the thing. We never get to the answer. Why is the, what, why doesn't the mom want something different for her? Mm.

You know? And that, yeah. That's telling, you know. But, you know, I hear what you're saying, Zakiya. I do think there's a lot of self-actualization there

in a way that made me feel like Charlie could be trifing, but in the end, like, you know, she'll be okay. She'll figure it out. Like, if she has to keep him to the curb,

She'll be alright. She has to touch the stove to know it's hot. And that's just, I feel like that's just, how old did she say she was? 22? 22, yeah. Exactly. And men back then. The shit I was doing at 22.

Exactly. And men back then, back remember, we didn't live that long anyway. She doesn't even have to. If it doesn't work out, she's just going to last like another like 20, 30 years. That man would be dead. Like, it should be fine. We have got one last story coming out of the Colorado statesman again. But how are we feeling about this one?

Is it dangling? Is it out of the time capsule? What are we feeling right now? Listen, it feels real to me. You know what I mean? The other one is very romantic. This one is very like, here's what it was really like. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. The other one was giving like romance novel that you would find in CVS or the airport. You know what I mean? Like no shade. Mm-hmm. And it did feel very fantastic. Nah, it was, it was, it was given Hudson News. Yes.

Yes. It really was. It really was. It really was. It really was. Yes. Okay. Well, here's our last story. Out of the Colorado statesman

published February 10th, 1917. Title, Her Helpful Valentine by Lee Shippey. Feldon had found the one girl, Nellie Hastings. Nellie had great, lustrous eyes. When Felden recited his own poetry, she would gaze intently into his face with a rapt expression. When he finished reciting, she would be silent a moment. And then murmur, how exquisite. Felden's family and I looked on his romance with extreme disfavor, but he would brook no

criticism from his relatives. That was why he happened to be lodging with me in the studio temporarily. Being only a friend I knew Felden much better than his family did, and was wise enough not to show my disfavor. I knew Nellie, too, and felt sure her union with Felden would not be best for all concerned. Feldon was really a fine chap. He was original. He did not even imitate other men in their vices,

as most otherwise original men do. He had a fine scorn for philandering and excesses. I felt sure the girl for him would have to be a modern-day Athena, but that is just what he thought Nellie was. She has a wonderful soul, he would cry. It looks out of her eyes. Every glance is a lyric. Every steadfast gaze, a perfect poem.

When a man who tells you his love is too deep for words gushes forth like that, about 30 times a day, it usually ends in a life sentence. There's no saving him. Still, we tried hard, the family and I. The family pleaded and stormed and threatened. I tried sundry strategic. strategic moves, but all proved futile. Feldon and Nellie decided to marry in May.

It was early in February when they definitely decided on the date, and then the family and I lost hope. But a few days later, he came in looking so agitated, I felt hopeful of calamitous news. His hair was disheveled, his collar awry, his tie humpbacked. He paid no attention to me, but began at once to pace the floor feverishly, muttering unintelligibly as he walked and stopping frequently to claw his hair frenziedly. Finally, he sat and began to write.

I could not restrain an exclamation of profound disgust. So it's a mere poem you're working on, I sneered. I thought something had happened. A mere poem, he cried. This poem should be an echo and a light onto eternity. It should symbolize the most perfect love which ever existed between human beings. St. Valentine's Day is coming, you don't? That day, I am to pour out my heart in a poem to Nellie, and she, hers, in a poem to me.

I exclaimed, I didn't know she wrote such stuff. He said her every thought is a poem. For a week, Felden labored incessantly over that poem. He would hop out of bed in the middle of the night to change a word or to put in a comma. He revised it a dozen times every day. It was truly a beautiful thing when he sensed away by Messenger the morning of St. Valentine's Day. The same messenger brought back Nellie's Valentine. What sounded like the gasps of a dying man called me to Felden's Side five minutes later.

He had fallen back pale and limp on a couch. I propped up his head and ran for a stimulant, but he waved me away. Don't save me, he pleaded. Life is all too taunting a mockery. I thought I had found a soul perfectly responsive to harmony and melody and beauty and symmetry. but just look at what she wrote. He held up Nellie's Valentine and I read, This Valentine to you doth say,

I'm yours all the time forever and for yay. So when this you see, do not forget to remember me, your own Nelly. And like Nellie's like, Nellie, so that it's two syllables. Wow. And that's it? That's it.

That's the poem. You know what, honestly, fuck him a little. What a snob? Wait, no, the story keeps going, but that's the poem. Okay, so I'm like, that's the end of the story by bad. Sorry, continue. Feldon shamelessly deserted Nellie, leaving for an extended trip through the West

without stopping to say goodbye. Damn. Both his family and I felt greatly relieved. Shortly after I've married Nellie myself, and ever since then, the dear girl has made handsome living for both of us by writing lyrics for popular songs, The End. Wait

What? What? What? Wow. Wow. That man played himself. But I do get it. I do get it. Wait, what do you mean? It's not. Like, I don't know. This man was like, oh, I'm going to get such a wonderful poem.

I've written such a wonderful thing, whatever. And then, you know, the poem me got was corny. and it was pretty so he got the ick he did and he just says like nah fam but then not but he wrote it being like yeah so I married

that girl and uh that got made me a lot of fucking money um like I yeah I don't know I couldn't be with someone who's uh I don't respect

I feel like that's very different I don't know how you could navigate that. Like I want my person to be my biggest fan and I want to be their biggest fan. Like I too would fall out. And you'd be like, oh, ha, ha, ha. My friends were like, what's wrong? He's cringy! I have the ick!

No, getting the ick is debilitating. It is. It is. And it's like, it destabilizes you. You thought this was your person. And all of a sudden you're like, disgusting. So I get that. I get that dramatic, but I too am dramatic.

So, and for the best friend to swoop in, where did that come from? Like, was it, like, like, like, nowhere. No way. Oh, my gosh. I mean, have you ever swoop like that? Like, wait. Have I swooped? Yeah, well, I mean, swooped as in, like, you know, you wait a respectable amount of time.

And then you're like, well, you know, you got the ick. So, you've never done that? I've never, I've never, I've never, I'm saying, you're like, what's the big deal? You're a swoop. You're a swoop. Swooper. Who did you swoop? So I would not characterize this as swooping. But yeah, you know, I've dated people who've dated my friends.

We've done that. Have you, like, talked to your friend about it before? Did you give them a heads up? On one occasion where it was a serious relationship, yes. But the other times... You didn't. I mean, I told them they've been in my life. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm going out with so-and-so.

And the guy friends are like, go for it. Yeah. Well, they were like, oh. Okay, that's what you want to do. Oh, shit. Oh, my God. But not in a like, oh, our friendships at risk, more than just are like, I told you why I got the X, right kind of way.

And each time they were right, they were totally right. Oh, my God. Why did you want to swoop because they were hot? And you're like, maybe it'll be different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God.

I have so many follow-up questions. I wish it was more complicated than that. But that's, that's true to be it. Oh, my God. Yeah, I've never, I've never swooped. We do need to make some decisions. Oh, right. It is decision time.

Okay. We only get to put one timeless message to the citizens of 2030. That's hard. That is so hard. Because I do want the citizens of 2030 to know that you can swoop and make lots of money as a result. That's really important to you. It's important, man.

The young men of tomorrow need to know. that girl can make you rich we're losing recipes okay we're losing recipes honestly I'm gonna I can't believe I'm saying this out of that I'm gonna root against my own story

I'm gonna go for that one what I'm gonna go for the swoop I'm gonna go for the swoop the swoop representation her helpful Valentine your vote is for her helpful Valentine yes the helpful Valentine

for sure. Zika, what is your vote? That one's good, but I'm biased. I think, like, my story, because it is kind of a classic tug of the heart, you know, for love or for money, you know? That's, I feel like such a, like, a timeless thing. The mother-daughter of it all.

That also, so I like that. It's also not just like about romantic love, but it's also about a mother's love for her daughter and wanting better for her daughter. And how about love gets absolutely stumped. Yeah. And it's funny because we don't know how it ends, but we just know Charlie is not a good man.

Not just that, but also the daughter is like, I don't even love or respect you enough to, I just got married last night. Yeah. What do you think of that? But I love the messiness because mother-daughter relationships are messy like that. I feel like across like race, time, culture. It's just the mother-daughter relationship. Okay, let me ask you this, both of you.

Yes. Somebody opens this time capsule, right? We don't have time for dissertation, so you can't do a whole, this is the backstory, this is the context, this, da-da-da. They're going to read this paper and hopefully get curious enough to look into the history of black love and black people. Which story do you think will inspire all the people of 2030 to Google more and, like, really dig into?

the story of black people and lead them to like, this is who we were in the 1920s. Hmm. Well, I would just say, so if this is, or a time capsule will be open to 2030, our attention spans are only what, like, don't they say, like seven seconds? I will say that last article, I did get a little lost because it was very, like, wordy.

The other story, it was, like, clear, we had a clear character's, you know, clear narrative. So I feel like if the goal is to capture the attention of people in 2030 and get them curious enough to be like, I need to learn more, I would say, I'm biased, but I would say my story. You don't say. I do say. Man, what to say why.

You make a good point because, point because there's attention span in 2030, which I should know I'm talking about it like it's like something I'm not going to live to see but it's just a couple years away. You'll know. We have clues now. Yeah, like you said,

attention span's ready at seven seconds. It'll probably be three personally for me in like a year. So oh man. Yeah, the second one's poll. Okay. It's a key. I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

Have we made our decision? Yeah, yeah, I think we have. Which is crazy because, yeah, swooping is important, but, you know. Swooping is important. What was mine? Mine was the Tulsa? Ended the argument out of the Tulsa Star. I think that it sounds like that is our winner. Is ended the argument out Tulsa Star, our official?

Yeah, and the history of a Tulsa, all of this history is important, but the history of the Tulsa Star, I feel like is super, super important. Yes. Like I just given, you know, yeah, the historical context of Tulsa, Black Wall Street, I love how this story was on theme with that, like black people, economy, money, but like with like a twist. So I feel like it's also just very creatively on theme without being so on the nose because she's like, money's important, but what about them? So yeah, that's my vote.

All right. We have a winner. Emmanuel, you switch sides. We can't believe it. Nobody saw it coming. It's unbelievable, but it's done. I know, let's finish. I just love that each one of these stories truly was so nuanced and messy in a way that, like,

you know, messy the way that I like in the sense that it's like, we're not always just, you know, black excellence and perfectionist and martyrs and this and that. Like, it's really cliche to say, but I genuinely loved how multifaceted and relatable each story was. Black people. just I don't know I just love I love it

I love every part of it and I love the yeah like you said it like I love the mess and like yeah I don't know

it's just good to know that like people were swooping most importantly most importantly they were swooping most definitely people were swooping

this show was written and researched and produced by me Nicole Hill thank you to my incredible charismatic, gorgeous guests, Zakiah Gibbons and Emmanuel Jochi.

You can find their work truly everywhere, but to start, check them out on the podcast, Hang Up and This American Life, respectively. This is an independent production, but that hardly means I did it alone. Thank you to my executive producer, A.A. Hernandez, this week's incredible sound designer, Helena de Grote, my story producer, Martina Abraham's Ilunga,

my research producer and voice acting talent, Chioki Iyensen. My scripts were edited by my lovely little sister, Shantay Hill, and my show art is by the divine Asselika Smith. To learn more about the show, visit our ancestorswemessy.com. To support the show, join the community of donors that we lovingly call the household at our ancestorswemessi.com and leave a review on your podcast listening app of choice. All right, if you stick around this long, you know the drill. I'm not a historical. or an archivist by training, I am a storyteller, who stumbled across our ancestors old newspapers one day and was reminded of a quote from Ecclesiastes 1 and 9,

What has happened before will happen again. What has been done before will be done again. There is nothing new in the whole world.