Our Ancestors Were Messy - The Emperor Jones: Our Ancestors' Favorite Play

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

In 1920, Emperor Jones was a bona fide Broadway hit. The controversial play’s lead is Charles Gilpin, the first Black man to head up an integrated cast on the Great White Way. Gilpin enjoys fame, accolades, and universal acclaim…but he does have a note for his playwright Eugene O’Neil. A note that will make and break careers and change the course of Black history! Starring Dr. Chioke I'anson and Amaya.Support this independent production and access bonus content at https://ourancestorsweremessy.supercast.comStay in touch at [e-mail] the show on Instagram at @ourancestorsweremessyFollow the show on TikTok at @ourancestorsweremessyLearn more about the show at https://ourancestorsweremessy.comListen on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@OurAncestorsWereMessy SOURCESThe Emperor Jones by Eugene O'NeilPreserving African-American Cinema: The Case of The Emperor Jones by Jennie Saxena with contributions from Ken Weissman and James Cozart"The Truth About Haiti: An NAACP Investigation" by James Weldon JohnsonCharles Gilpin. The Kennedy CenterJackson Ward and its Black Wall Street. National Park ServiceBeyond Tulsa: The Historic Legacies and Overlooked Stories of America's Black Wall Streets. Time MagazineThe Richmond Planet is digitized and stored at The Library of Congress.

The Secret Adventures of Black People Presents. Our ancestors were messy. Wow. Whoa. What is going on? How are we feeling? Today we're heading to the theater to check out a play taking the nation by storm. This is like an episode of Atlanta.

And creating a very high-stakes dilemma for its lead. I feel like in the moment I would have been upset and I would have done what he did it. This episode stars the homie and my research producer and the person who usually does this voice announcer part. My name is Chioki I Anson. I ride motorcycles. And his very cool 14-year-old daughter. Hello, I am Amaya is a har. I recently started the ninth grade.

I ride horses obsessively, and I like art and to read. And me, your host, Nicole Hill. He says, so long, white man, and then he leaves. We recorded this back in the summer of 2024 when the world looked different. You'll see what that means. This is Our Ancestors We're Messy, a show about our ancestors and all their drama. The desperation in your voice is killing me. Where are each of you from, and where are you now?

I'm originally born in Montgomery, Alabama, and now I'm here in Richmond, Virginia. So I was born in the first capital of the Confederacy, and now I live in the second capital of the Confederacy. Congratulations. How does that feel? Oh, it's so great. It was really really. great back when the monuments were up. Aren't they bringing those back, though? I don't think it's going to happen. I think that what'll happen is that they'll just be like an epidemic of renaming schools and other places, Confederate things.

Oof. Okay. Amaya, where are you from, where are you now? Well, I was born in New York City, and then I lived in Virginia for a lot of my life, like back and forth from Virginia to Uganda. And now I'm just here, a lot. A lot. Do you want to stay there? No, I don't. But this is where I'm going to be for the next four years. Okay, and then where?

Where are you going? And then college, I don't know, maybe far away from this country. Oh, out of the country, not even just out of state. Oh, yeah. That sounds like an amazing tuition situation. Yeah. Okay. Now, what kind of black would you say,

each of you is. What kind of black? Um, I don't know. Am I a history black? Am I a quiet borderland black? Borderland. I don't know. Yeah, borderland like I went to a black college,

but I interact so much with non-black people that I can kind of see the boundary and the border. And I often find myself either like helping black people deal with white people or helping white people leave black people alone. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. But, you know, I was also a professor of African-American studies. I was a person who, or I am, a person that really cares about the development of black minds. I think I'm probably like a Gen Z black because I feel like in my school,

and with like kids, like race is something that's seen, but you don't really talk about it. So I don't know. Okay. Are there a lot of other black kids at your school? Oh, yeah. There are a lot. Like this year specifically, I'd say it's like 60%. Wow.

But you all just like don't talk about being black. Do you make like jokes about being black where you're like, oh, you know how black people are. Like that type of stuff? You do. Okay. Definitely. Yeah. But you don't have to like talk about the experience of being black.

much. Yeah, because it's very hard for kids to, like, talk about, like, deep things in that way. This will matter more later on, but I'll just ask it now. How do we feel about the N-word? I'm fine with it. Totally fine with it. I mean, like, it, the original use of the word was a thing that black people came up with to refer to one another in connection. So I think it's totally fine. Everybody at my school is saying the N-word. Even white kids are saying the N-word? Yeah.

It's, yeah. It's bad. I know. Are they nervous? So that's not okay. No, no, that's not okay. Don't worry. It's bad.

I've seen a lot of kids that be like, and I'm like, whoa, like children, like chill, please. I know. That's wild. It is wild. I don't even know because, like, it's not. even really in my vocabulary. Like, I don't say it very often.

And yet, like, white kids will just be, like, saying left and right. And I'm like, you have to go out of your way to, like, you know, use this in a sentence. You know what I mean? Because, like— How do people react when they say it? Yeah, because, like, you know— Well, I guess, but not really. If I'm going to be so for real with you, like, people don't care.

What? You would have got jumped at my school, like 100% jumped. I mean, I'm sure there's lots of places where you would get jumped. Yeah. Yeah, I never got in many fights in school. Yeah. But I can tell you that when I did get in fights, it was because a white person called me the N-word.

Yeah. Like, that's a fightable, that is a fightable offense. Yeah. All right. Well, let's get into our story. So today, I'm going to tell you about the first ever Broadway play to star a black man in the lead role and feature an integrated cast. There is no way to talk about the history of Black Broadway,

or even actually the history of Black Hollywood, and not discuss this play. In its time, it was a phenomenon. But from the very beginning, it was the source of fierce debate and controversy in the black community, with some calling it this enormous step forward when it came to positive representation of black men in media, and others calling it like just another racist caricature.

This debate still continues among theater and film historians to this day. So we're going to see what y'all think. This is the story of the lives and careers that were made and destroyed by the play Emperor Jones. Have either of you heard of this play? Emperor Jones. The first thing that comes to mind is like an emperor like penguin. but I don't think we've ever heard of Emperor James.

No, not Emperor Penguin. Is Paul Robeson in this play? He is connected to this situation. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. I've heard of it, but I don't know it. Okay, perfect. All right.

So we're going to go in the time machine. We're going back in time. The year is 1920. So the roaring 20s have just begun because the war is over. We just call it the war. We don't call it World War I won yet because we're like we would never.

It's the great war. It's the great war, the only one we'd never repeat that. It would be, everybody's feeling good. It would be nihilistically prescient to call it World War I. Right after it ended. You two live in Richmond, Virginia at this time. You do, you just so happen to be living there. It's very segregated.

As shift has already said, it's the one-time seat at the Confederacy. So there's all these really strict Jim Crow laws about no mixing ever. You can never be chill, you can never have any fun if you are in the presence of white people. It's so intense. But you live in Jackson Ward. That is the all-black segregated community. Yeah, so, Maya, as you know, Jackson Ward would come to be known as Black Wall Street. It was the place where black people first started to do big-time financial stuff.

you've studied Maggie Walker, of course. And it was segregated in this interesting way because, so Jackson Ward is on the north side of Broad Street. That side of the street was black and then going up north. But the south side of Broad Street was white. And so you have to imagine in the 1920s that there's these two streets. You can look right across and the black world is right across from the white world just separated by like, you know, 25 feet of cobblestone.

Right. And like Chioka said, on your side of the street, it's Black Wall Street. One of several that you would have been reading about in your day-to-day life. There was one most famously in Tulsa, of course. But there are others by other names in places like Chicago, Durham, Atlanta, Little Rock, Jackson, Mississippi, Washington, D.C. But Richmond holds the distinction of being one of the first areas to ever use. the monocers, and you're very proud of that. And you're also very proud of the crown jewel of your community, the hippodrome theater. I'm assuming we know the hippodrome. Okay, I've been to the hippodrome a couple times, yeah. What do you think of it? Well, it's pretty cool because even now, it looks old school.

Like, if you look at it from the outside, it does not seem like a contemporary building whatsoever. It feels like a place where you would go to see Duke Ellington. And that's exactly what I'm everyone was doing because you had like the hippodrome and then all around it you have black wall streets you can go perform there and you can go stay in a black hotel and eat at a black restaurant and be relatively safe so it becomes this major stop on the chitlin circuit and everybody who is anybody performs there they call it it's like to uh Harlem what the apollo theater is that's what it is to richmond and kind of like the south am i the chitlin circuit is like the underground music and entertainment tour scene for black people.

Right. So you could make it big on the Chitlin circuit and you could be black famous. Why is it called the Chitlin circuit? Well, one of my favorite foods that you don't like is Chitlins. Nobody likes. No, that's so. Chitlins is, it's good. It's the intestines of a pig prepared in a particular way.

Now, it was a food. that was effectively discarded. Like white people would not eat the intestines of a pig, but black people were like, maybe we can make that pretty good, actually. And so it became a food, like, most closely associated with black people, including my grandma, who would make chitlins. Yeah, my grandpa.

Yeah. And whenever you made chitlins, it would stink up the house. The whole house. So you literally had to sit outside while the chitlins cooked. Like you couldn't be in the house. Yeah, it smelled real bad. But then once they were made, they were pretty good, though. I like mine with mustard.

I never even, they smell so bad. I couldn't. But like all the older people in my family. Oh, so you've never even tried them. No, because the smell is so bad. Yeah, but that's only when they're cooking. Sensory. It gets better.

I'll never know. The desperation in your voice is killing me. You go to the hippodrome a lot actually in 1920 because you're both art and theater critics. However, you are rival. art and theater critics. And you both work. Why are you turning around?

I'm just trying to remember what is the there are in fact a couple black newspapers Well, this is the thing. You both work for the Richmond planet. This is the black newspaper of the town and your rivals

because Chiogi's all old school. He wants to do things the Victorian era way. But your news You are like flappers, jazz. Very reflective. Yes, exactly. Just how it is now. So you two are always trying to undercut each other,

one up each other, scoop each other. Your editor's name is John Mitchell Jr. And he calls you into his office, the office of the Richmond Planet. And he's like, enough you two. There's no time for the games you're playing. We've got serious work to do. He reminds you both that the Richmond Planet

is where the city's black community goes to read local, national, and international news without the racist slant. And he says, this is hallowed ground. The paper was started by 13 formerly enslaved people. And then eventually John Mitchell Jr. was brought on. He is 21 years old. He's idealistic.

He is the loudest, proudest defender of Jackson Moore in the black community. He tells you that as the paper's new editor, he is about to, and this is a quote, hurl thunderbolts of truth into the ranks of the wicked. So he's very serious. Am I? Why are you making that fake? Yo, that is hard core. Because, you know, the normal way that you described journalism is like, was it comfort

the afflicted and afflict the comfortable or something basic like that? But he's like, oh, no, no, no, no. We're going Thor. Yes, that's what he's doing. And so the paper mainly covers segregation, lynching, the KKK voting rights. You two have noticed, though, John Mitchell Jr.'s been getting. and impatient with the pace of change. And more and more, he's calling for black people to maybe arm themselves and physically

fight back against racism and discrimination if the government isn't going to do anything about it. And this is leading to the paper being read by more and more people. Your readership is up to 5,000, and this is a weekly paper. So your audience is into the subversive right now, and maybe that's why he wants you to go see this play. all your critic friends have gone when the play was in their city and they've been telling you they never seen anything like it. It's so wild.

Your readers are dying to know what all the fuss is about and what Chioka and Amaya, the theater and art critics of the Richmond planet have to say about the show. So y'all are in John Mitchell Jr's office and he tells you these are the three things you need to know before going to see this play. One. It's called Emperor Jones and the lead is a black man. and he's saying and doing things in this play that no one can believe. Two, it's written by this, like, radical white playwright named Eugene O'Neill. He made it for black and white audiences alike. Even though the lead is black, it's for everybody.

So it's kind of unusual in that way, too. And three, you two are to go to the play together, review the play together, and then have your review on his desk first thing in the morning. No delays. The thing is, I'm not really a morning person. I prefer afternoon. Wait, so are you going to be like, no, I'm not going to go? I prefer afternoon.

No, I am not because John Mitchell Jr. was a firebrand. Like, his legend reverberates even today. And you just got to do it. You got to go hard whenever he says so. I'll carry your, what's that teeth thing that you put in your mouth when you have, like, fake teeth? You need, like. How old am I in this scenario? Oh yeah, you're indentured.

I'll give them in my birth. Something to note too about this time. It's like pretty wild. You're not allowed to depict slavery on screen. Like at all. It's not to be discussed. It's very impolite. And yeah, if you put it in a movie, they would censure it.

So nobody has seen anything like slavery. They don't have any concept of this. And nobody's seeing black people be anything other than like menstruals up to this point. Yeah. So this notion of removing slavery in this way is itself a form of propaganda, right? Like they're trying to encourage this generational forgetfulness of one of the greatest sins of American history. The Texas House Bill, like 1969 or something. It's where they're like you can't talk about critical race theory in public schools in multiple states currently, which is pretty insane.

Yeah, it's like the general idea is that the best way to address the greatest of sins is to forget about them. So now we're going to go to the theater. All right, well, I'm going to put on my good suspenders. So here we go. Yes, oh my gosh. And you're going to put on like your flapper dress. Oh, my God. Yes.

Open on my hip-a-drip. You take your seats. The lights dim. The play begins. Act one. The play opens and it's nighttime. We're on an unnamed island nation. We're in an unnamed island nation.

The islanders are all black and we're in a palace. Specifically, we're in a throne room of a king and a man enters. He's one of our two main characters and his name is Smithers. He's white and British with a cockney accent. So it's like, hello, governor. One z, two z. You know that accent? Yeah.

Okay, just to be, Idriselba is a cockney. Okay, but not this guy. Like a non-hot cockney is what we're thinking of. They describe him as middle-aged, bald, with an Adam's apple that looks like an egg. He's sunburnt, unscrupulous, mean, cowardly, and dangerous. Smithers is in the throne room of the palace at night. He's questioning a black woman about why there are no other islanders in the throne room, or like anywhere.

And she's like, I don't know. And then she leaves. And Smithers is like, I know why. There's no black people around. It's because they're staging a rebellion. I should go tell Brutus. Enter Brutus. He's described as tall, powerfully built, full-blooded Negro of middle age.

His features are, is it typically negroid? So, like, he looks like a black person. Like, he's dark skin, he has big lips. He's got the black nose, like the hair and all this stuff like that. His face has an underlying strength of will, a hearty self-reliant confidence, in himself that inspires respect. This is our Brutus. This is our Emperor Jones.

He's wearing a light blue uniform, gold buttons, bright red pants, boots with spurs, a pearl-handled revolver in his holster, and he's meant to feel like really royal and hot. Like it's not, it's like opposite of a menstrual. This is the vibe. Smithers hates Brutus.

Immediately out of the gate, you can tell, but he's trying to hide it, but he barely can do it. He's like, Brutus, I need to warn you that I, I think there's going to be an uprising. And Brutus is like, oh, say more. And so Smithers is like, oh, you're so dumb.

You didn't even notice that there's no servants around, and you didn't even notice that they hate you. You're the emperor, and you're supposed to be so smart, and you're like, all high and mighty, you put on these airs, and you didn't even know what was going on. Like, you can't even hold it in. And so then Brutus grabs his revolver. And he's like, you better watch the way he talk to me, white man.

And then Smithers is like, oh, my God, oh, my God. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. My bad, my bad. And so then Brutus is like, okay. I accept your apology. You may continue. Around you in the audience, people are sort of like, uh-oh,

because this is not how it's meant to go. Right, because this is a massive change in power dynamics and media. Yeah, most fictional characters are not going to do this. In fact, audiences are used to, as you say, like these very kind of racist depictions of minstrels in film and other productions. Now, who do we think could play our emperor job? I'm thinking Michael B. Jordan. I was going to say Aldous Hodge.

Yeah. Y'all don't know Aldous Hodge? No, I know the name. He was in the TV show Underground. He was on a TV show Leverage. The guy's great. Neither of us know him, so I think it has to be Michael B. Jordan. Unbelievable.

Well, let's make this story more enjoyable. I'm sorry. Okay, so picture Michael B. Jordan. Sorry, it's she okay. The next scene, Brutus is going to like casually recount his whole life story as you do. So here's what we learn. Back in the day, before coming to the island, Brutus had killed another black man during a craps game. And then he went to prison.

And then when he was in prison, he, quote, split the head of his white prison guard. Smithers is like, you can't kill white guys in the U.S. They would absolutely lynch you. And Brutus is basically like, you can't lynch which you can't catch. So he's like, I was on the run. and then I got on this boat and then the boat docked on this unnamed island and that's how Brutus got there.

So then once he got to the island, he meets Smithers and Smithers is corrupt and he's scamming all the islanders by charging them more for things than they should be. It's just like a bunch of little scams. And Brutus is watching this and he's like, you know what? I used to be a Pullman Porter.

Oh, yeah. Do you know what Pullman porters are? Okay. Go to work. work. Let's do it. All right, kid. So by the time in this part of the 20th century, the main former travel is trains. And people are taking these like long trips and they're getting on like sleeping cars. These are like white people. They're getting on like sleeping cars. Okay, so there's this guy, I believe, his name is Charles Pol. And he's like, yo, I need people who can be like attendance

on these trains. And I think that the best population to do this is black people. And he, like, he has all of the racist reasons for why he thinks black people will be good for this job. He's like, well, you know, they were previously servants. They're good at serving, you know? Okay, so then he hires a bunch of black people to be porters that is, like, train attendant type people, right?

But what's interesting is that these train attendants, these Pullman porters, they travel kind of for the first time throughout the country. Right. You see what I mean? Yeah. And so then they pop up in town and maybe they're like stopping off, like waiting for the next train to leave, et cetera. They go into the black neighborhoods and now they're carrying the news of the black world across the nation. You see what I'm saying? And then they start carrying publications.

and then they unionize. And so, like, it's a real interesting story about how people who were hired specifically to be in a position of servitude actually find their way to, like, a portion of political power and influence. Right. Do you know what this whole, like, you, like, you know, doing that, like, explaining reminds me of, in drag race, there's a queen named, um, named, um, named, um, named, um, you know, Sasha the lore and like every other episode there would be a moment where she would just like dive deep into like gay like history and they would just have like a whole like segment on Sasha and she would be like the like you know educator on the season and it was my favorite part. Well now you're getting it here too. Maybe we can give you the Sasha edit. Like whatever the music is underneath Sasha. That's what it can be.

Chokey Valor You can be your drag daughter Nice All right That sounds good actually I'm down Shh Back to the play

So he was a Pullman Porter And something that the Pullman Porter's Were kind of famous for Is they would like Be watching white people And be like What are you guys getting into? What are you guys talking about?

They're learning about all kinds of business ways And what Brutus is picking up He says When you run little scams Like what Smithers is doing he's like he make a little bit of money that's cute but and this is a quote when you rig the whole system they put you in the hall of fame

so he's like I need to run a bigger scam than these little trading things that Smithers is doing and so he's like okay how do I want to go about this he comes up with this plan he convinces the islanders his fellow black people that he's a god and that he can't be killed

and they all believe him and they start worshipping him and as their god, he increases their taxes and gets super rich. Then later he adds, like, not only am I like a god, the only way that you can kill me is with a silver bullet, and I have to be the one to shoot. I have to kill myself with a silver bullet. Nobody else can because he's like,

I want to be able to go for walks without being assassinated. So now he's able to go for walks in peace, and to ensure, you know, he's like, he's raising all these taxes. He is not very nice, but to keep people on his side, He's like, I'm Baptist, but for the islanders benefit, I do go to their witch doctors, and I'm louder and prouder about anything having to do with, like, their religions than even they are, so that they will super believe in me. So this is bananas.

It's giving, like, pharaoh vibes. Well, yeah, except, well, yes, but you could argue that in those old systems, those rulers also believed their message to be true. Whereas this guy Brutus is like, oh, I'm scamming. I'm scamming my way to the top, baby. I got mad power and I don't have enough. Let's go. Exactly.

Okay. That's exactly where we are. And he's pretending, but he says, like, I am a Baptist. But then Smithers is like, but you don't tie it. He's like, never mind about that. And Smithers is what exactly also? He's the advisor to the emperor. What is Smithers doing here?

Smithers is a small-time scammer, but he just trading. He's, he, like, is in charge of, he's bringing all the exports to the island and then upcharging the island. He's an unscrupulous import-export guy. Exactly. Yes. So this is, we learn all of this, and he has this revolver that he had grabbed previously when Smithers was talking wild to him. He's like, I've got five bullets in here that are made of lead. That's for trouble.

And one silver bullet. And that's for myself. And he's like, I'm the only one who can take myself out. everybody believes him. He has been anticipating that eventually things might go left for him on the island because he, he's like, I am a dictator. I do recognize that I'm doing dictatorship here and that people get tired of that. So he's like, don't worry about it.

I have a plan. And this is what his plan has been. When he's going on these walks, he's actually surveying the jungle for the best escape routes for a day just like today. So he's confident that he's going to be able to make it across the island under cover of darkness without the islanders finding him. He's going to get on a boat that he has waiting for him offshore. He's going to sail to Martinique, which is where he put all his money so that the government can't touch it.

And he's going to live out the rest of his days in peace and tranquility. That's the plan. Sounds like a plan. Yeah, but a hustler on this scale cannot know peace nor tranquility. He says he's going to do it. And Smithers is like, yeah, the revolution is coming. So you need to get out of here. So he's like, okay.

Now, a note, Brutus is only referring to the islanders with the N-word, and he puts, like, all these different kind of variations on it, but this is the only way he refers to them. He looks down on them. He thinks that they're stupid. He thinks he can really easily outsmart them, and he uses the word a lot. Like, a lot, a lot. Like, so much. So we're, like, we're in the audience, and you're like, huh, that's a lot. Yeah.

Okay. So Brutus has just recounted his whole life history, his plans for trouble. and just then, this drumming starts. And it can be heard. It's very faint. It's in the distance. It's coming from the hills. And it matches a heartbeat exactly.

And you're going to hear the drumming throughout the rest of the play. So everything I'm going to say, just picture some faint drumming in the background of it. So Smithers tells him, this is the Islander's bleeding ceremony. That's what they call it. So they're calling on their demons

and their ghosts to come after you in the jungle tonight and they're going to have a war dance to get up their courage. and that's why the drums are going. And Brutus is absolutely not faced. He's like, I'm glad they're getting up their courage. They're going to need it. So then he puts on a little Panama hat,

and he like cocks it to the side, and he says, Smithers, he says, so long, white man, and then he leaves. And so after he's gone, and Smithers is sure that Brutus is gone, he calls him the N-word, and he's like, I hope they catch them.

And then he starts looking around the throne room for like stuff to steal and do his little selling scams with. And that's the end of Act 1. How are you liking the play so far? This is a weird play, man. This play is weird. Quite strange.

What is going on? All right. Act two. Brutus is running through the jungle and he's nervous. He's like, why am I so nervous about these dumb N-words? And then he starts calling himself the N-word. This is the first time we've heard him do that. And he's like admonishing himself for being so scared.

And then he's hidden food for just this occasion all throughout his route to the sea. He looks for the food. He can't find it. He starts getting really frantic and he lights a match. And then he's like, oh, my God. I'm going to show them exactly where I am. This is crazy. Why am I acting this way?

Calls himself the N-word. The drumming gets louder. It gets faster. It's getting darker. He starts to run. And then these things appear on stage. They're called little formless fears. And they're like so weird.

So they're, I saw a production of this. They're head-to-toe. They're like in a head-to-to-black outfit. And all you can see are their eyes. And we can see them, but he can't see them. Brutus can't see them. And they're like five or six of them, and they start laying on the ground, and then they start laughing.

And Brutus is like, where's this laughing coming from? He gets his gun out, and then he shoots it. And then they stop laughing. And he starts feeling a little bit brave again. But that is one of five lead bullets that he has for trouble. And now he's just shot it. He starts running again. Brutus keeps running.

It's getting darker. He slows down a little bit. And then he starts to monologue. He's like, I need to stop being so afraid. I need to get away from them. I can't find my hat. He did lose that hat. And then he turns a corner and he comes upon the scene of a black man shooting dice.

And he's in a Pullman Porter outfit. The guy shooting dice is super rigid and his movements are like very mechanical like he's a robot. Brutus doesn't seem to notice this. He gets really excited. He's like, oh my God, Jeff. I'm so happy to see you. I'm having such a bad night. Jeff is ignoring him.

He's like, all the people are chasing me, I don't know what's going on. Jeff isn't paying attention. He's like, Jeff, hello, why are you not paying attention to me? But then he's like, wait a minute, you can't be here because I killed you. That's why he went to prison because he killed his friend in the dice game. And so then he's like, oh my God, are you a ghost? And then he takes out his gun and he shoots Jeff and Jeff disappears.

And now Brutus is feeling really, really big again. He's like, yeah, I'm not afraid of a ghost. But then he's like, oh, shoot, I shot my gun twice. The islanders are going to know exactly where I am. I've used two of my five lead bullets. I need to stop doing that. The drumming gets louder, gets faster. It's getting darker.

He's really worn out. He takes off his blue uniform jacket, gets rid of the spurs. He's so tired. The drumming keeps getting close. It just feels like it's getting closer and closer. He's seen this ghost. He's calling himself the N-word a lot. He's like, I can't even believe that.

I think I saw a ghost because I'm a Baptist. I don't even believe in ghosts. And then he starts praying and he's like, God, could you please make me not see any more ghosts? He keeps running. He comes upon another scene. This one is of a bunch of black men on a chain gang. They're in striped uniforms.

And there's a white guard with a whip. And Brutus gets super, super scared and starts cowering. And then the white guard spots Brutus and he points to him and he says like, he's signaling to him. He's not talking, but he signals to him that he needs to get on the chain gang and start digging. And so Brutus sort of joins them and everybody's digging in this like really mechanical way. The guard comes over and starts whipping Brutus and then he just walks away and Brutus gets super mad. So he goes to grab his shovel and go after the guard but then he realizes that

he doesn't have a shovel. So he turns to the other men on the chain gang. He's like, y'all, give me your shovel. I need to handle this man. And nobody is paying any attention to him. So Brutus takes out his gun and he turns to the guard and he says, kill you white devil and he shoots him the scene disappears the drumming gets louder gets faster so he's in a he's in a trial in the dark forest this is like an episode of atlanta when you know what i mean when you when who is it was the guy uh uh is it is it is it is it erne or alfred which one was the rapper, I forget, who like ended up in the, in like the woods outside of Atlanta. I haven't seen Atlanta. And like had, wow. I know. I didn't want to. I was hoping I could like, fake it. You haven't seen it.

Atlanta. You haven't seen Harlem Knights. What? Well, Harlem Knights is acceptable. Atlanta is not and I do recognize that and I will watch it. Okay. All right. Well, the, the point is that the idea of like trials of the conscience in a dark forest. Like that's pretty, what? well established. And so it helps us understand Brutus's initial villainy a little bit better to see him go through these trials now because, you know, like, so that was a direction that it was going. So that seems okayish. Let's find out what happens next. Yeah. All right, act three, our final act. Brutus makes his way through a clearing. He's exhausted. He sits down on a stump. His pants are in tatters now. He looks wild. He starts praying. He says, God, I know. I know.

No, ghosts aren't real, but I keep seeing them. Could you please make it so that I don't see any more ghosts? And he's like, and I'm also, I guess you probably want to hear that I'm sorry, and I am, that I killed Jeff, and that he made me kill him because he was using loaded dice and cheating, but sorry that I killed him. And I'm sorry that I got so mad, and then I killed that guard, even though he was whipping me and beating me and treating me bad, but I'm sorry that I did that too.

And I'll be better. If you could just please make it so that I don't see any more. and make that drumming stop. Amen. Now we've got no boots on. We're like kind of wild. He just finished his prayer. And then all these people, all these white people appear. And they're dressed like they're from the 50s. But remember, this is 1920. So they're dressed like they're from the 1850s. And this is a time in which slavery is legal. So they're all like hanging out doing something. Brutus is like, what are they doing? Where are they doing? And then the black woman appears with all of her children. And she goes up onto an auction block. And an auctioneer comes out and starts trying

to sell her. And he realizes, oh my God, this is, I'm witnessing slavery. So he starts yelling. He's like, stop. Like, what are you guys doing? No one will pay attention to him. So he jumps up onto the auction block and he's like, stop doing this. We don't do this anymore. And then the auctioneer starts to sell him. And so then Brutus gets furious. And he says, This is a quote. He says, what are y'all doing, white folks? What is all this? Why are you looking at me?

Is this an auction? Are you trying to sell me like they used to do before the war? And then he looks at the auctioneer and then he looks at the guy who's trying to buy him. And he's like, to the auctioneer, he's like, you're going to try to sell me? And then he looks at the guy who's trying to buy him. And he's like, and you're going to try to buy me?

I'll show you both. He takes out his gun. He shoots them both. He's bullets four. His bullet's five. The scene disappears. Brutus can hear the, Islanders chanting, drumming is getting faster.

It's getting louder. The crowd in the hippodrome is going to be going a little bit crazy because Richmond, Virginia was, like, the place that had the auction house for enslaved people, and it's not far from Jackson Ward. And so, like, cats are going to be a little bit. They're going to be a bit live. It's a black audience, after all, so they're going to give a bit live in the theater. Brutus, his pants are now so tattered that he is, like, in a loincloth.

He's got no shirt on, he's got no shoes, and he is like, lost his mind. Then all of a sudden, all these other black people appear who are also in loincloths. And he's just mesmerized by them. And they start swaying back and forth. It kind of looks like the sea. And then he just sits down and starts swaying with them. They kind of get up and do like a little dance. He's just following all of their movements.

And then a witch doctor appears, and Brutus starts following the witch doctor and, like, doing all the movements with him. and the witch doctor brings out a crocodile head and starts coming at Brutus with a crocodile head and Brutus snaps out of the trance and freaks out and he takes out his gun and he shoots his last silver bullet at the witch doctor. The scene disappears.

We cut out of the jungle to Smithers. So Smithers is sitting just outside the jungle and he is with a guy named Lynn. Lynn is black. He's in a loin cloth. He's super chill. Just like unfazed, super bored by the... everything that's happening around him. Lynn and Company have been hunting Brutus on Smithers' orders.

And so once the silver bullet is shot, all Lynn and his men, they all crouched down, and they get in like a little semi-circle. And Smithers starts freaking out. He's like, okay, that was the last bullet. Go in there and kill him. And Lynn is like, no, it's done. He's dead already. And Smither starts freaking out.

He's like, you're so lazy, you're so scared. Like, what do you mean he's dead? He could get away. You always need to go in there and get. He's, like, jumping up and down and foaming at the mouth. And Lynn is like, he's dead. Like, just relax. What do you want me to do?

No, he's completely unbothered. All of a sudden, we hear a bunch of bullets go off. Just like tons and tons and tons of shots. And then Smithers is like, what was that? And Lynn was like, he's dead, okay? He gets up, walks away. So then Smithers is following him, and he's like, no, no, I don't understand. And so Lynn tells him,

the drumming wasn't drumming, we were making a bunch of silver bullets. And I gave all the villager who's silver bullets, and then they all shot him. And Smithers is so upset that this plan worked, and he's like, it doesn't matter about the silver bullets, you guys are so dumb. Like, he just needed a bullet. You don't even know anything. He's just going off, going off, the black people don't care. They walk away.

They bring his body out of the jungle. It's kind of like Jesus-like, like on the cross. They carry him out. Put him down in front of Smithers. Smithers calls him the N-word one last time, but to his face this time, because he can. And that's the end of the play. Wow. What is going on? How are we feeling? Yeah, tell me your thoughts.

I don't know that I like the play. I think that probably I, maybe I've been waiting this whole time after seeing all the menstrual shows. I've been waiting for, yes, a powerful depiction of a black person. a black man, but I wanted there to be a more positivity to it. Yeah, perhaps not so much. Like I'm still, like, I'm, I'm waiting for, I'm waiting for the future when, like, Sydney Poitier shows up. For the hero. I don't, but I don't like, I don't like this.

I don't, I don't, I'm not feeling so great about this. What about you, Maya? I don't know. I feel like it needed to have come after, if that makes sense. Like, there needed to be, like, you know, this, like, black, like, hero that, like, comes and, like, saves, saves. the day in order to like fully enjoy the complexities of this play i think yeah like it's okay listen we made michael b jordan the yeah we made michael b jordan yeah literally i was expecting

in the end like a victorious shirtless killmonger you know what i mean well okay let me tell you what happens. You all leave the play. You're, you go to the Miller Hotel across the street and you order Shirley Temples. She's not born yet, but you're not drinking. Either of you, obviously. Well, cheer because you don't and it might because you can't. So you're over there, you're like, I don't know what to write about this. And then a reporter from New York comes by. And it gives you a little bit of insight into what's going on with this play. So earlier that year in the spring of 1920, the NAACP, which at this point is 11 years old, is like, we've been watching this U.S. occupation of Haiti after their president was assassinated. And America's saying it's fine, but I don't know.

We don't know at the NWACP. We're wondering if it's actually fine over there in Haiti. The U.S. has been there for five years to help maintain stability and restore order, and that's what they keep saying. like, we don't know. So they call James Weldon Johnson, the writer of the black national anthem, big time civil rights advocate and editor of the New York age, the black newspaper up in New York City. And they're like, can you run down to Haiti and just check see what's going on? So Johnson's like, okay, and he goes over there and he publishes a series of reports about what is happening in Haiti with the U.S. government. And it runs in black papers, but also in white papers across the United

States. To know the reasons for the present political situation in Haiti, to understand why the United States landed and has for five years maintained military forces in that country, why some 3,000 Haitian men, women, and children have been shot down by American rifles and machine guns, it is necessary, among other things, to know that the National City Bank of New York is very much interested in Haiti. So Johnson spells out how the National National National. City Bank, which is now City Group, went to President Woodrow Wilson, and they were like, Haiti is out of control. You know, this Black Nation, they don't know what they're doing, and somebody should help them. And Wilson is like, somebody should. So the bank is like,

they have $500,000 in their bank, which is today $7 million, and it's set aside for education and infrastructure. We should take it and keep it in New York, and just to be sure that it's safe. and Woodrow Wilson is like, you should take it and keep it in New York just to be sure that it's safe. And so by taking that money, they kind of de facto have control over the banks and the islands. And the U.S. is there to protect that investment and this like little scam that they have run on Haiti. So Eugene O'Neill reads James Weldon Johnson's article and he's inspired by it. he's like what an excellent premise for a play i see okay so the play itself is a subversive text meant to like raise the general awareness of what's happening in Haiti

yeah i mean it you know the well the the the the funny thing about subversive texts is that they ring differently across the time period and so it's possible to encounter them and be like, I have no idea what's happening here. It's possible to encounter them and see super clearly what's happening because you're so intimately connected with the context. I appreciate that it's an allegory. I will raise questions about whether it's an effective allegory.

Yeah. Well, listen, it worked for our ancestors. They adored the play. They loved the actor that plays Brutus. His name is Charles Gilpin. There's, of course, some controversy because the black person killed a bunch of white people in it. But other than that, black and white audiences pack theaters.

This is Eugene O'Neill's first big box office hit. It establishes him as a successful playwright. They tour with the play for two years. They have hundreds of performances all over America and overseas. People cannot get enough of it. And it turns Charles Sidney Gilpin into a star. And you all can't help to be happy about that because Gilpin was born and raised in Richmond, Virginia. And...

As a matter of fact, there is a project named after him. What do you mean? Oh, really? Yelp in court. Yeah, you don't want anything named after you. Yeah, it's rough, I know. Yeah. But he doesn't know that that's going to happen yet because he's just enjoying his celebrity.

This role has led to him getting prestigious theater honors that no black man has ever had. He's honored by the NACP. He goes to the White House. He becomes one of the first black performers to appear on the radio when he does a reading of the play. Everybody loves him. Everywhere he goes, he's a hero. there's just this one problem that he has, which is how much he has to say the N-word in this play.

And we've already established. He says it so much. So he goes to O'Neill, and he's like, this is crazy, the amount that you have me saying it. I don't want to say it that much. And O'Neill is like, no, I had this one black friend, and that's how he talked. So this is how you guys talk.

And Gilpin is like, no, it's not. So he goes on stage and he'll substitute the word with Negro. And O'Neill is like, stop doing that. They start to have a lot of friction. They get really, really angry with one another, but he won't stop doing it because he's like, I don't like this. And also the black papers are talking about it. They're like, it's such a good play. We love the message. People are just so excited to see. You've never seen anything like it, like a picture of Michael B. Jordan just like having all that swag. And in the end, the only thing that could really, he was defeated by was

his own mind. So everybody loves it. It's just the use of the N-word is too much for people. So we starts changing it and saying Negro instead. Him and O'Neill are beefing, beefing, beefing. Finally, O'Neill is like, you know what, you're fired. And he brings on Paul Robeson. Wow. Do you want to explain who he is?

Yeah, yeah, Daddy. Oh, man. This is, now, picture the music. This is Sasha Lord. Go for it. So, like, so Paul Robeson was one of the great early 20th century, black

actors. He was probably one of the first black movie star, if I'm not mistaken. And he had this like super deep voice and he was also a singer. And he was also a communist. And so, yeah. And so, well, yeah. So the, so he was like super famous with like black and white audiences. But as time went on and his communist views became, like, you know, more prominent, then he, like, lost some favor and had some political, like, issues and fallout, you know? But he was an icon in, like, from the moment he showed up, basically. But I didn't realize that the first moment he showed up was this play. Right.

That's right. So this will be the last little bit that I share, which is the fate of the two black men who made history starring in this play. So we'll start with Paul Robson. So he takes over this role after Gilpin is fired, and then all that fame and love and adoration transfers to him. They make a movie version of the play, and even though everybody hates it, including me, it does turn Paul Robeson into a movie star, the first black movie star. And he decides that the best way that he can lift up his people as he climbs the ladder of success and access is to use his celebrity to raise awareness for liberation struggles around the world. This is like the struggles of black people in the United States, but also,

people overseas, including communists. America hates that. So by the 1950s, the white public and Joseph McCarthy had turned on him and blacklisted him, but the black public continued to hold him down until his death in 1976. He was who the civil rights leaders of the 60s looked up to, and by then, nobody cared that he got his big break by agreeing to say the N-word too much in a white guy's play. As for Charles Gilpin, getting fired from the play, He starts drinking a ton. He becomes like an alcoholic. He loses all of his money. And then five

years later, he dies. He's buried in an unmarked grave for a time until his story is rediscovered. And then in 1991, he's entered into the Theater Hall of Fame and many programs and theater troops and buildings and projects, I guess, are named after him today. There's a lot more that happens. But for now, that is the story of the lives and careers that were made. and destroyed by the play Emperor Jones. Whoa. Not a penguin. Not a penguin. If you were in Charles Gilpin's shoes,

what would you have done? If you were like, I don't want to keep saying this word, I'm not sure what to do. That's a good question. I mean, okay, well, I mean, I guess it just depends on what I value, because if I wanted the fame and if I wanted the money and like the recognition and perhaps the boost to tell the stories that I want to tell, I would have like kept doing it.

But just because like, you know, there's like a sacrifice, I guess, in saying the N-word, like, you know, an uncomfortable amount to get the fame that I need to tell a story how I want to tell it. Yeah, I think that I guess I would have tried to shift. to become a person that has a message. Mm-hmm. Right? So I would get fired, but then you would immediately see me in the press. Yeah.

Like advocating for the rights of black actors. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard. It takes a certain ambition. And also I think that the conclusion, right, is like, oh, there's not going to be the kind of thing that I want to see until I make it. And, you know, and I'm not even saying that white people shouldn't.

write black stories. But I think that when you do, you have to be good. Yeah. And you have to listen. And it has to be like very recognizably black because of the input. You know what I mean? But also we could just have black writers. And, you know, and maybe they would succeed or maybe they would fail.

but I think that it's good to have that fundamental connection with regards to the creation of work. Yeah. Well, that's all I got. Yeah. Oh, my God. But it was like so much fun. I actually had no idea what I was going to do when I, like, came here.

No, like, my dad, like yesterday was like, oh my, do you want to come be on a podcast? I was like, okay, what is it about? He was like, it's with Nicole. I was like, okay. And they didn't respond to me. So, I don't know, dude. That was like a lot of fun.

Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad you're here. It's good to have like, you know what I really like? Yeah. Why I like this is there's something about passing these stories on to one another that I think it was really cool to watch Chioki teach you a bunch of stuff in real time. Yeah. I don't know how we learn these things anymore.

Like how you learn what a Pullman Porter was and how important they were and how you learn like the stuff about the Richmond planet like these specific super black things. Certainly not in school. Right, yeah. Because what do you learn about black history in school right now? What are you learning? Well, that's the issue. There's not a lot. It's just like very much slavery, Jim Crow present.

You know what I mean? they're like it's not very like nuanced i don't know and then a lot of kids just like don't really want to take any other history classes because you know nobody understands the importance yeah dang maybe you should go back to teaching history yeah maybe high school history class high school history they would hate you yeah i'm that's not my crowd if but if we could can put the Sasha Valore music under the history lesson. I know that's fine thing. Or even that because you're bald.

So like you, um, this episode was written, researched, produced, and sound design by yours truly. Me, Nicole Hill. Thank you to my fantastic guests, my brilliant, amazing, beautiful guests, Chioki Ayansen and Amaya Zahar. Thank you to my A team, which includes my executive producer, A.A. Hernandez, my story producer, Martina Abraham Zylunga, my research producer and voice talent,

Shogi Ainsen, my script editor Shante Hill, and the designer of my show art, Aselica Smith. To support the show, you can give a one-time donation or become a monthly donor for just $7 a month at our Ancesterswemessi.supercast.com. You can also support the show by leaving a review on your podcast listening app of choice. This actually does make a big difference, and I like to read them. To learn more about the show, you can visit our ancestors from messy.com. Before I go, I just have to say, I'm a storyteller by training, feeling more like a historian and archivist every day. And I started the show in part because when I found these old black newspapers, I was reminded of this quote by the philosopher Henry St. John.

History is philosophy, teaching by example, and also by warning.