Our Ancestors Were Messy - The Revolutionary Black Loyalists! Live with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Thousands of our ancestors escaped slavery during the American Revolution, fought for the British on the promise of freedom, and left an outsized legacy in the US, Canada, and beyond. Starring writer, sociologist, and MacArthur Fellow Tressie McMillian Cottom taped live on Juneteenth at the Institute for Contemporary Art at VCU in Richmond, VA.  Support this independent production and access bonus content at https://ourancestorsweremessy.supercast.com Sign up for the newsletter and learn more about the show at https://ourancestorsweremessy.com Stay in touch at [e-mail] Follow the show on Instagram at @ourancestorsweremessy Follow the show on TikTok at @ourancestorsweremessy Listen on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@OurAncestorsWereMessy  SELECT SOURCES The Black Loyalists of the American Revolution Enslaved by George Washington, This Man Escaped to Freedom-and Joined the British Army Black Loyalists Exodus to Nova Scotia An Account of the Life of Mr. David George from SLA given by himself George Liele Thomas Peters The Black Loyalist Heritage Center  

I'm back with another bonus episode made possible by our community of donors known lovingly as the household. It's their support that pays for this independent podcast and actually what gave me the idea to release these two episodes together. They get a lot of bonus behind the scenes content and they heard one story told twice to two different people and their response to it let me know that maybe this is something everybody would be into. Anyway, if you would like to become a member of the household and support the person, the show and get all the behind-the-scenes goodies, you can visit our AncestorsWemessi. com.com. To learn more, the link is also in the show notes. For this story, I traveled to five cities to tell one story about a group of revolutionary ancestors who made history in ways that I think it's very important to remember on America's 250th anniversary. Thank you to my guests

and to everyone that came out to see a show in Toronto, New York City, Charlottesville, Richmond, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. You are going to get to hear two of those shows in your feed, but if you'd like to hear takeaways from every city, check the link in your show notes. There'll be information about how to sign up for the newsletter, and that is where I will tell you everything. But for now, here's one of two cities.

I really hope that you find hearing history from two different perspectives as illuminating as I did. Okay, enjoy the show. The Secret Adventures of... Black People Presents, Our Ancestors Were Messy. A band of war-weary vets embark on a quest to find the Promise Land. Along the way, they'll face obstacles that pit them against the elements,

the unemployed, and each other. This episode stars New York Times columnist and 2020 MacArthur Fellow, Tressie McMillan Cottom. Your host, Nicole Hill. Live from the ICA at BCU, this is our ancestors were messy, a show about our ancestors, and all their drama. I love this. I love this.

Tressie. Hey, girl. Hey. This is so wild to me. So we'll just do a quick backstory before we get into it. I have been following Tressie just obsessively and like just every day refresh, refresh as Tressie said anything. What are we going to do?

What's the direction we need to take for years now? And for the past, since the show came out last year, people have been like, you know, Tressie knows about your show and she wants to come on. I've been like, that's not true. That's not, it's impossible. Not only did I want to come on. I don't think I've ever campaigned for anything in my life. I kept everybody I would cross past was ever like, hey, you heard, you heard this show.

It's about the only one I really, you know, and I really enjoy it. And I really like, which is very true. By the way, I told you the same. I really like this threat. of two things that are very important to me, which is our cultural history, but also to see us in context where we get to be our fullest selves. That's what the mess and the drama is, because those things to me aren't antithetical. And I love the show, I love the setup that was so creative and brilliantly done. And I was like, and I listened to about two or three times

where I was like, why am I not on this show? And so I started saying to people, or I want to be on it. And it worked. I only had to bully her to do it, but we made it. And my last Pits thought was, I think Jason Reynolds is the one who got this done, by the way, because we were backstage at a thing, and I said, hey, look, I'm going to do this show. He's like, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing Nicole tomorrow. I said, well, you tell her, I would like an email, please. And he did.

He did do that. I said, I don't believe you, but shout out to Jason. That's right. And Chioki, because he's the one who finally texted you. Oh, yeah, that's right. Are you kidding me, one of my favorite human beings. Shout out to Chioki. So thanks to Chioki. Yeah, thanks to Chioki. All right, let's get started. Okay.

All right, so my first question to you, how many generations back can you trace your family history in America? Do you know? That is a great question. We are not deeply literate in my family until my great-great-grandmother's generation. Despite that, we have been able remarkably to go back. I think we can do six or seven generations all in eastern North Carolina. So part of the reason why we can trace it so far is because we didn't move. And so we still have the oral history.

So again, you know, those parts before we have like great records and are very literate, but we were very grounded in Robeson County, North Carolina. And so actually, yeah, we can go back pretty far. Okay, next question. How has the black church influenced your identity as a black American, if at all? Ooh. I feel a bit like an alien with this one. A big part of my personal story is despite looking, I know what I look like.

I know I look like the South. I like that about myself. So it's cool. My family was not particularly religious. And where we were from, that's significant. Now, we went to church. The church is more than, you know, faith. It was our cultural institution.

It's the educational institution. And so there's a church right on the edge of our family land. We seeded half of our land for the building of Prospect, Amy. Shout out to Prospect. I mean, I think we got 19, I think you got 1920 members right now. It's a poor small county, y'all. That's how it is. So certainly we have the ritual.

So the way I like to say it now is that I am culturally. Yeah. Black, Southern Christian. But I was not raised, for example, and I think it was really important for me because what I didn't get was like the sense of natural deference to power. Because my great, I mean, it was very, it was very uncommon for. for her time, but like, I remember my great-grandmother saying, I ain't listening to no man on no stage, tell me nothing.

And I just really took that to heart. If you can believe it. Yeah, I know y'all don't really struggle to believe that. But, so, like, we participate, but there was a certain, she always kept this sort of distance, and I think that was handed down to the women of my family. All right, one last question. What kind of black are you?

I love you because, first of all, I don't know if anybody would be bold enough to ask the quote, but also for you to be able to, because I know exactly what you mean. I don't think I'm, I think there's a, has been in my life. Like, there's a gap between the kind of black folks think I am and how I see myself. Yeah. So it's so funny you say this. I don't think I've ever said this publicly, but okay. I can tell you what, I ain't, I ain't a black elite.

I ain't talented tenth. Wasn't raised to be it. went to a couple of meetings, didn't like it, came back home. The meetings. I respect it, and I know why we have it. It's all fine, but I was like, yeah, I think I'm good on that.

But I accept that, like, a lot of things about my life had changed. So I'm careful to say I know people don't see me as regular black. But in my mind and in my house, I am a regular black person. What is a regular black person? A regular black person to me

is one who does not look to other people to define their place in the world. So I have a saying, say, I know whose I am. Right? I'm not confused. No matter what room I'm in, I know whose I am.

I know the people who give me meaning. I know the people who give me social, my real social status, the kind that can't be taken away. Yeah. Right? I never want to lose my facility to speak to and with those people,

I don't want to sound like anyone else, right? So for me, that is, I know whose I am. I know who brought me here, as the saying goes. I know who I'm leaving the party with. Yes. I know if it pops off. I know which side I'm on. I'm very clear on these things.

We all have to be clear on that. Very clear. Yeah. All right, well, we're going to get into it. I've been so, okay, go. I've been so nervous, slightly worried about it. I wonder who we got. Okay, go here.

Oh, because, you know, this story. I'm so nervous. Okay. Okay, let's get into it. Here we go. Okay. All right, so we're going to picture this like a movie. Okay. It is 1775. We're in the Philly home of one of the most famous Americans in the world, Benjamin Franklin. In the living room behind closed doors,

Benjamin is fighting with his beloved only son, William Franklin, and here's why. At the moment, there are around 2 million largely European migrants living in the 13 colonies. Native Americans would call these people illegals. They're pretty diverse, different languages and religions and cultures, but some say you can divide everybody up this way. A third, Benjamin Franklin included, are like, we're done with the British.

We're called patriots, and we want to do the American Revolution. Another third are like, we hate politics, leave us out of this. And the final third, including William Franklin, this is, oh, thank you so much. Chi Yuki-I insin and everybody. And the final third. including William Franklin, the son, are like, we need to stick with the British. We're called loyalists, and we're going to stop this American insurrection.

In the movie Benjamin Franklin is yelling at his son, he's saying, you're going to be a loyalist slave to the British, because calling people slaves for fighting with the British, you know this. This is the whole thing. That's right. Even though they have slaves, it's just cognitive dissonance. I know. It's just very, every time I'm reading this stuff, I'm like,

blows your mind, doesn't it? I know. So he's like, okay, you're going to be a slave. you're going to go with the British, and William is like, Dad, why are you going against our king over the Boston massacre? Only like five people died. That's not a massacre. It's fake news.

These two will go on to fight on opposite sides of the war. Afterwards, despite William's attempts at reconciliation, Benjamin Franklin will die having never forgiven his son for siding with the British. America was a house divided from the very start. But this is not a story about the Franklin's.

In the movie, listening to this fight just out the living room are Joseph, Jemima, Peter King, Othello, George, and Bob. These are all the people that Benjamin Franklin enslaved in his lifetime. They turn to each other and say the thing that's got to be on the minds of the 500,000 enslaved black people across the 13 colonies. Whose side of this are we on? This is the story of our ancestors' revolutionary quest for a promised land. Here we go. So our ancestors had to make all these choices. And y'all will also have to make some choices along with Tracy.

This is why you have a decision board. I'm going to guide you through five. Okay. And you have bells. Can y'all ring your bells? Oh, I didn't give you a bell, but you got a mic. Okay. Okay.

So when you want to decide one way, we'll have you ring your bells to go one way. And when you want to decide the other way, we'll have you ring your bells to go the other way. Now, I've been able to do this in five. This is the fifth city. Everybody gets really stressed out in the beginning. I would say don't be stress. Okay. It's going to be really fun.

You know, a bunch of teacher's pets in here. I'm like, I want to hand out with the instructions. Okay, okay, okay. I'll trust the process. You can trust the process. It's going to be so fun. And what we're going to be doing is, you know, I think that maybe now is a good idea would be to introduce yourself to your neighbor

because you are going to need to make some decisions together. I don't want you guys judging one another. I want this to be all love. So why don't you turn to your neighbor, introduce yourself real quick. Say hello. Hi, neighbor. Beautiful. We're doing it like black church style.

I was just about to say, I knew exactly what this one. Turn to your neighbor. All right. Now, here's the most important thing. Please look at your neighbor and say, I will not judge you. Okay. I will not judge you. Safe, safe, safe, safe space.

All right. All right, I can get covered everything. Okay, that's that. All right, y'all ready? Okay. It's still the colonial era. But now we're in Essex County, Virginia, with our ancestor, David George.

Every historical account I've read describes him as a charming, charismatic survivor. We will be casting him later, so just keep that in mind. You know the castor. That's right. He'd been born enslaved to a sadistic person will call the cruel man.

David sees this man torture his family, and he's terrified that he's going to be next, so he runs. Before our ancestors running was only the beginning, because people that traffic in humans don't just let them go. They own businesses where the labor is free, and if you build a whole country with free labor, it'll be competitive on the global market in no time. So industries evolved to keep enslaved people enslaved.

After David runs, the cruel man chases him across Virginia. He's bought and sold a few times by other people, always with a cruel man on his heels. Eventually, David is sold to someone down in Silver Bluff, South Carolina, and he escapes the cruel man for good. On this new plantation, David meets and marries a very brave, a very resilient-sounding woman named Phyllis. So based on what you've heard so far, who would you cast to be our David George and who can be our Phyllis? Okay, so you said charismatic. Charismatic, very charismatic.

Clearly was brave. Enterprising. Got himself a woman. He did. He was romancing. Okay. So he's got to be attractive. A little bit.

Yeah. So I'm going to go with, this is so bad. I'm so obviously a black woman of a certain generation. I only know one. Are you going to say, Dineau? I mean, that's all my brain can, like, process. I'm like, is there another one? I don't know.

All right. So it's like the question of what year, Denzel. That's the only question. But, okay, so if we take Densel. Zell off because admittedly that man has done enough. I like some of these young actors who are

Do somebody say Michael B. Jordan? Wow. He's already been cast. Oh, Sterling Kay Brown. I like Sterling Kay Brown is a good one. Oh, the bells have been wrong. And he's got those soulful eyes where I think he could do that. Okay, I'm going to, I like Sterling Stirling, we like Sterling.

Yes. The bells have spoken. All right. Okay. Now Sterling needs a wife. Who's going to be our Phyllis? I know. I like them so much.

I said his wife, and that was my first thought, because we liked them together so much. Now, the only thing I am going to throw out there because I think there is something to her that we haven't quite scratched the surface up, I really, really like the direction Quinta Brunson is going in. I do. There's something there that I don't think she's gotten the perfect vehicle for us to see. But there's something behind that girl's eyes.

Yes. Oh, we like Quinta. We like it. Okay. All right. This is fun. That's our cast. That is surprising. We haven't had Quinta cast before. Give it to her. Here we go. All right. So everybody, picture Sterling and Quinta.

So David and Phyllis, Sterling and Quinta, have a child. and his situation seems calmer in silver blood. This new enslaver isn't violent like the last one, or he isn't as violent. But David does fall into what sounds like a depression. Now, today we'd point to the family separation, the escapes, the captures, knowing his child had just been born enslaved as like the triggers for the depression. But at the time, he's just like, I don't know what is wrong with me. You know, they're obviously not thinking that much about mental health. They don't have all that kind of stuff.

So David, he'd never really gotten into Christianity before, but he decides to try praying. It doesn't help. But he keeps at it, and eventually he does hear God say, I will send you deliverance. Could this be a sign that he should try running again? It's time for our first major decision. Okay. Imagine you're in his shoes.

You tried to escape slavery before. It hadn't worked out, but you're miserable right now. And you do believe that God has just told you, deliverance is coming. Knowing that you have a partner in a child, Let's imagine the kid is like under five. Would you try to escape again in hopes that maybe you can solve this terrible feeling? Or would you try to figure it out and stay where you are?

I'm going to ask Tressy and then I'm going to ask the crowd. And you can talk us through your decision making. This is such a complicated one because I think because we carry like this deep epigenetic shame of having ever been enslaved, I think we like to imagine ourselves as always, I would have always chosen to run. I would always like, right, tried to kill my enslaver, right? Not realizing like the whole system. Right, okay. Oh, you don't imagine that one.

Okay. Mr. Ms. Morales. Right. So we like to think of that, but I do think, you know, just like statistically that underestimates, one, how hard that is. Yes. And it also casts the people who stayed as somehow deserving of having been enslaved. I just always take that personally, a person from the South, a lot of people who didn't move a lot, right?

The idea that you stayed because you were meek or feeble in some way, I've always struggled with that. So I think I'm going to, again, regular black person over here. I love to think I would strike out on my own. And I actually think as the mother, I'd be more likely to. So I think if I'm Quinta, I'm more likely to run because I'm thinking of the child. But I think if I'm the man, I think if I'm David, I think I try to stay. and make community, especially if I've now started turn into religion, maybe a church,

because that's what we did. We create a space. They can enslave us in a place, but in a space we're free. Right. You know, in our minds and the stories we tell and the hymns we're seeing. I can imagine if I'm smart, try to want South Carolina is a whole lot further away from freedom.

Yes. Okay? And South Carolina was brutal. And I'm thinking if I don't make it, my God, what would have? happened to me. I think I'm staying and like trying to build a church or community maybe. Yeah. All right. If you are staying, let's hear it. Ring your bells. Thank y'all for not leaving me out there by myself. I appreciate that. And if you're running, let's hear it. Also fine. Yeah. I feel you. I feel you. I do.

I get it. I get it. I think we have, it's more people running like about two thirds. Would you say I would say so. Yeah. I'm sorry, two thirds are staying. I'm sorry. I stay. I'm sorry. Two thirds are staying. Yep. And about a third. I have always thought reading their accounts, something that always comes up is their family. And I'm like, if you had my family, if I'm enslaved with my family, you don't need chains. That's it.

Where am I going to go without my mother? That's right. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, all right. You all made it through the first decision. Well done. That wasn't so bad.

All right. So let me tell you what David George decides. He decides to stay. Ah. Yeah. Okay. But he is miserable. Yes, of course.

He keeps trying prayer. He keeps looking to the horizon for deliverance. And he says that that starts to make him feel better. Then a Black Baptist pastor named Brother Lyle stops by the plantation. During the colonial era, Baptist and Methodists were welcoming to converts from the laboring class across race, but in different ways. Just keep that in mind. Got it. So Brother Lyle's preaching and he's like, y'all, God said, come unto me, all you that labor, and I will give you rest.

And David is like, God likes laborers. I love that. So in addition to praying, he learns to read. He starts scrolling through the Bible. He's like, like, like, like. He and Phyllis join Brother Lyle's congregation. And eventually, David has offered the position of pastor. Yep.

People just like him. He's very, you know, sterling. You said he was charismatic. That's why I thought I think he's standing. He's making a church because that's a preacher. And that's what he did. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

So he actually gets invited to be the pastor of this. church that he joined and he's like, no. He doesn't think that he's fit. But eventually he says, okay, he gets their enslaver to give them a barn for their services. And they name it Silver Bluff Baptist and it becomes one of the very first black churches in America. Wow. Under David, Silver Bluff Baptist grows from eight to 30 members. That's impressive.

That's more than our little church left than prospect. They're doing better than us. David. It was good. His congregation is made up of our ancestors, fellow captives. They're all likely to have experienced violent assaults and to have witnessed their loved ones being violently assaulted. But I imagine it's Silver Bluff.

They get to enjoy, at least for a little while, a sense of safety. Everybody say safety. Safety. In that safety, they tell each other Bible stories. Historians note that black folks across the colony seem to love one story in particular. It's there. I want to dance with somebody. They're living on a prayer.

their return of the Mac. It's the Exodus tale. That's right. Mm-hmm. Of how God sided with enslaved laborers over wealthy pharaohs and eventually sent deliverance. Everybody say deliverance?

Deliverance. In the form of Moses, who parted the seas and led them into the promised land. So in the movie, everybody's in church, getting down, they're having so much fun. David is preaching.

They're so into it. In my movie, he'll lead his congregation in singing one of our people's most powerful hymns. Okay, so the song was Kirk Franklin's revolution. I can't play it now for licensing reasons. But you should go listen to the chorus and then laugh, laugh, and then come right back.

Yes, that ancient Negro spiritual. That ancient spiritual, we all know. Kirk Abraham Franklin, nice. So they sing that in all the books. It's not in the books. They don't want you to know. And then the American Revolution arrives in Silver Bluff. All right, so in 1779, they hear that the red coats are coming, and David George's enslaver just runs away.

He just, like, leaves everybody there. White plantation owner in South Carolina, that's exactly what I expect. That is literally exactly what I expect. They're like, oh, my God, okay. And now our ancestors and Tressy and all of you have some decisions to make. Okay. So, black folks, they're meant to be in this information blackout at this point in time, enslavers worry that all the talk of all men being created equal will give them ideas.

They already have the ideas. But there are all these whisper networks across plantations. For example, black people who are forced to deliver the mail from plantation to plantation would also drop off news and gossip to black folks. And maybe that's why, or maybe that's how everybody heard what was going on in Virginia. Let me tell you about it. So picture, maybe we're going to have Quinta doing this part. Quint is going to be doing a little exposition dump.

She was going to, but guess what I heard. Oh, I can totally hear her saying that. You could see her doing it. She would be so good at it. Uh-huh, uh-huh. So in 1775, Lord Dunmore, governor of Virginia said, listen, enslaved people,

I proclaim that if you fight for the British, you'll be free. Right. A guy named Harry Washington from a plantation called Mount Vernon was like, Bep. Now, he tried escaping this plantation before,

but his enslaver, George Washington had always hunted him down and dragged him back. Right. But then word gets out about Lord Dunmore's emancipation proclamation, and Harry escapes for good.

He dons a red coat, he fights for the British. There was also this other guy, everyone calls Colonel Ty. He escaped slavery in New Jersey and joined the British, where he got command of a guerrilla unit specializing in raids, ambushes, and assassinations. The papers say that men like him serve in uniforms with liberty to slaves written across their chest. That's so attractive.

Mm-hmm. Isn't it? I don't know. I mean, I really like that disposition. I like that. show up with, yeah, liberty. I do. I'm looking at that. Liberty and slaves. Yeah, look I'm standing there.

I really like that. I don't know what that says about me. With a bloody. I don't know. I'm a little into it, but fine. I like that. Oh, should we cast. Well, we don't really need to cast him. But if we did have to cast him, who could blame him? Oh. Now that went right, because I think he does fierce well. I will go with Michael B. Jordan. I will allow that one on this.

Yeah. Yeah. Does somebody say Aldous Hodge? Oh, that's what you said. Who? Aldous Hodge. Oh, yeah. Okay, also. Also.

Okay, we could have them both kind of audition for the role. Well, yes, it's hard work. It's hard. But I let them come and audition for me. We're willing to allow. Right. Yeah. Okay, so just to catch us back up,

the kind of question is, would I go fight for the British? Right. They've just offered me freedom in exchange for service. Now, maybe you're wondering, How does anybody know that the British will actually free them after the war? I was just about to say that would be my thing. I mean, how do you trust? There's so far, that's a distant master.

Yep. As opposed to the master I know. Yes. And like, free me where? Like, am I going back to, I just, I would have so many questions about the logistics. The logistics, 100%. Yeah. And unless they had someone there to explain those logistics to me.

Yes. I'm like, man, I don't know you. Well, this is what they can, this is what they can offer. Um, they promise. Oh, that was it. That's the end of the offer. I literally waiting. It was getting ready to show up.

No. It's just they promise. Girl, please. They pretty promise. Okay. So now, Tressie and then all of you, whose side are you going to choose? Are you going to fight for the American Patriots?

Or are you going to fight with the British loyalists? Yeah. There's a murmur in the room. What will draw? Trustee choose. Again, there is no question in my mind that there is one of the inherited values from my people that I get is the devil you know is better than the one you don't. I have a, there's an expertise in slave people have at this point. They know white people better than they know themselves.

I know where they live, they sleep, I know how they eat, I know what their fears are, right? That's power. Information is power. Yes, this is true. I don't have any way to know about the British, right? And the literacies I would need to even start, you know, I have been denied me. I think I'm going to lean into my expertise. I know those white people.

I think, I just, I don't think I would trust the British. And I would be thinking what I know about my enslavers is too powerful. I'll fight with them, but that is also because I know. I'll know how to resist them. I'll know how to maybe even kind of control them a bit. Wow. And if I've been enslaved, even a little bit of control... It goes a long way.

It goes a very long way. So I think that would be my choice. Not because I love the idea of America of freedom, but because I don't know those people. Right. All right. If you would fight for the Americans, let's hear it. All right.

All right, teammates. It goes down at noon. And if you would fight for the British, let's hear it. Oh, it's kind of 50-50. I will say from what I know of this, like the Loyalists were better outfit. Like if I'm hungry now, I'm going to it to Loyalists because they apparent, you know, they had rash. They were better. Yeah, the Americans were starving.

That was also a lot of the appeal, right? Their camp, they were healthier. You get clothing. You get food. So I totally get. I think there are lots of reasons. But yeah, okay. Fair enough, loyalists.

You surprise me. 50-50. I know so many. I love it. Is that because you were in Virginia, maybe? Maybe. You know what? So I've done this in Toronto, New York, Charlottesville.

Uh-huh. What's the other? Washington, D.C., now Richmond. This is the first time anyone has ever chosen Americans. I think it's because it's... That is fascinating. Yeah, and the majority of the room also chooses the British. Yeah, this is the first time it's ever gone this way.

Okay, we're going to have to unpack that later. to unpack that later. That's fascinating to me. Yeah, yes. I was like, oh. That's true. Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, so what do we think that is?

Is it just identifying with at this point, maybe the American brand is so tarnished? I think the way that you are also breaking it down of like the devil you know versus the devil you don't. Versus the kind of the, I don't know, the hopefulness or the kind of feeling of like, I just, maybe that will be better. Let me reach over there. Got you. I think that also kind of isn't doing the way we're thinking about it. But this is the first time it's ever happened. I'm going to be thinking about that for quite some time.

Yes, me too. I'm like, how do I summarize this? On the 250th anniversary of America, right, to also be thinking that way. I do. I think that says something about how we feel about this country. And that just if we'd taken another fork in the road, maybe we could have gotten it better or there could have been a better solution. And maybe you're thinking, then you also aren't built on this foundational contradiction, right?

Building a democracy on top of slavery. which that's the fundamental. That's the only contradiction that America cannot resolve and why it cannot be what it needs to be. So I can see thinking, okay, we didn't resolve. We messed it up. Let's go the other way. But what an interesting thing to be thinking on my 250th.

Mm-hmm. All right. So 5,000 to 8,000 enslaved and free black people fought for the Americans. 15 to 20,000 black people fought for the British, including the members of Silver Bluff Baptist Church. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

You don't say. Yeah, they really did it. And we don't really know how many really tried to escape to get to British lines. I read all kinds of wild estimates that I can't include here. They're like, 200,000 people tried. And it's like, well, you know how many people. Exactly, yeah, yeah. But we know how many went.

And it's 15 to 20,000 versus the 5 to 8. And this is this promise of freedom and the hope that it's true. Yeah. And they are more powerful, too. Yeah, and no one would have ever thought the Americans would win that war. That's right. Yeah. So America and Britain, oh, wait, no.

So Silver Bluff Baptist, they're with the British. They're stationed outside Savannah, Georgia, and when they get there, they run into Brother Lyle. This is the God digs laborer's message. And it sounds like America's first two, well, they're one of America's first two black pastors. They're among the first. They stay close.

They keep their congregations close. They look out for each other as they navigate the horrors of war. I'll just say black soldiers. I know I talked about Colonel Ty. You know, we got the whole Michael B. all this kind of showdown thing going. Most of the soldiers are doing like civil engineering projects. People really don't want to give black people guns.

Yes, that's right. That is it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That really is it. It's very real. Yeah. This elite squad, this G unit has guns, but for the most part, people are doing like, not that G unit.

Civil core of engineering. GG unit? Not that one. Thank you very much. But yeah, okay. That, yeah. Most of them, it's like building trenches, building forts. These are civil engineers.

These are people who know how to get these things built really, really well. They've been forced to know. So that's what most people are doing. Okay. So they are navigating the horrors of war, but then in 1781, the British surrender at Yorktown and our Silver Bluff Baptist congregations learns that they had picked the losing side. Yeah. No.

So America and Britain meet up to negotiate their divorce. George Washington is like, I want all our property back, including those black loyals. Yeah, he's a Harry Washington. Where is he? back to me. That's so bad. You know how that is. Sir, Guy Carlton is the lead negotiator for the British, and he's like, well, actually, the black loyalists are free because we promised. Okay. That's on me. Okay. I never said you should follow me. Okay. Because fair enough, fair enough. They say that this is about an honor. That's right. Honor among thieves, huh?

Also, the British know how crucial slavery is to America's economic model. They just want to like stick it to the one last time. They want to stick it to one. That's right. Yeah. So George and Guy fight and fight. But eventually Carlton offers a compromise. He's like, all right, so listen. These don't usually work out for us.

So hold up, a compromise. Here's a compromise. He's like, I'm going to take a bunch of the loyalists, including the black ones. You are a tax now, girl. You are a taxed. Okay. Including the black ones up to. Nova Scotia.

This is a nearby British colony. Yeah, yeah. That's where that came from. For them, it's just like going to another state. I know for us it's like, whoa, Nova Scotia, but it's just another colony. Right. Right. Another British colony.

So it's like, we're going to take them there because they're the nearest colony that hasn't betrayed us. And we'll tally up the value of all the black people that we take and then we'll like send you a check or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry about it. George Washington is like, I know you're going to pay us. Exactly.

Because he knows he wouldn't pay them. He knows he wouldn't pay them. Yeah. But Guy Carlton is like, no, GW, I promise. So, word goes out to the black loyalist that if they can, make it to New York City, find the right location, get their name and a ledger called the Book of Negroes, collect the certificate of freedom. I knew. I knew that was fine print. The many you said the word compromise, I was like, these do not work out for my people. You got to get to New York.

You need to get to New York. You need to find this bar, Francis Tavern. It's still there. Girl. You need to get your name in a ledger. You need to collect a certificate of freedom, proving your military service. There's a certificate involved. There's some paperwork. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then you've got to get on a ship. And then you can stay free. And I'm getting on a ship. You got to go to Nova Scotia. That's the only way. That's how I got here. That's how all this started. That is how all this started.

I don't go on a cruise ship now. Okay? That close to the lived memory of a ship. Uh-huh. It's only one way. Ma'am. You're going to have to do it. Maybe.

Or not. We'll see. Okay. We'll see. David George and Phyllis and Silver Bluff are in South Carolina when this plan is hatched. So I'm sure they're wondering, how are we going to get to New York City, how we're going to do all that stuff. But then they find a loophole because people love David. Somebody's like, David, I got the hookup.

There's a boat that's leaving to Nova Scotia straight from here in South Carolina. But you have to hustle. Yeah. So in the movie. David and Phyllis tell everyone, all right. We got this boat to Nova Scotia. Everybody, get ready. Hurry up, hurry up.

So we should picture them. They're in the tent. They're frantically packing. There's a little tap at the door. It's Brother Lyle. And some folks from Silver Bluff Baptist Church, and they say, Brother David, we're not going to Nova Scotia. Brother Lyle found a ship that will take him and his people to Jamaica.

Well, brother Lyle. You know, when you first mentioned him, I almost said, okay liberation theology and here we are now Jamaica is again it's another colony and it's a slave colony they would have known that

but still that's where he wants to be that's where him and people go you do? I get it. Yeah? No but I mean if of my options for them where they're trying to avail themselves of this like opportunity to be free if those are my two if you tell me it's Jamaica

or is Nova Scotia I do think I like to think that what partly he was responding to is, again, just like that, almost a genetic, biological pull to, that's closer to home. Yeah. I don't know. And that's, I think I'd be thinking that. So that's where he decides he wants to go. Silver Bluff Baptist, they've decided they want to go back to Silver Bluff, which is the home that they know.

Okay. Okay. In the movie, everyone will say, Brother David, Sister Phyllis, Nova Scotia. How do y'all know that this isn't a trick to re-enslave you? Like, why would you trust the British? And David will say, well, because the British promised. So now at a time for major decision number three, are you going to get on this boat to Nova Scotia without any of your friends,

or are you going to stay in America? Try to figure it out. Oh, sorry. Thank you. I thank you. Somebody said, where is the Jamaica option? I know. People always ask about that.

There's no Jamaica option. Okay. Brother Lyle said, no, we fool. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And, you know, in the movie, I feel like they have now known each other. And Brother Lowe was like, no, we good.

I don't know why, but I just feel like something. Sterling, I'm tired, yeah. But, okay, so whether you go, I am still so doubtful about believing the British that at this point, again, so which one is the more imminent threat, right? I know for a fact if I stay, I go back. I know the system I'm back in you. So that's, to be clear. Okay. So then the great unknown becomes a little better because anything I'm thinking is better than that.

Right. He has already tried to escape before. Yes. Has a family now. He's got a family. Yeah. Has developed literacy. He can read out.

He can figure it out. Yep. And listen, there's no greater, I think, power than knowing that whatever happens, I can handle it. Yes. And I think that's one thing, literacy. gives us. Well, drop me there. I can figure it out. There'll be a book. There'll be some instruction, you know. And so I think if he's got that, if I got that, I think at that point I go to Nova Scotia. You're ready? You're going. You get on the boat. I think so. All right. If you are

going to Nova Scotia, let's hear it. Really going to Nova Scotia. All right. And if you are staying in America, let's hear it. Okay. That's fair. All right, we got a few. All right. It was overwhelming majority for the audio later. Overwhelming majority. They're going to Nova Scotia. Yeah, we're playing a lake side on the way out the door. We're gone. And there is a kind of a thing to think about,

which is that these are religious people. Yeah, they've got this story now. Yes, exactly. So when you have that to follow. That God will protect us in the wilderness. That maybe that is where we're going. Exactly. But that is where God calls you.

Yes. And they've got a story. This is why stories are so important. Stories are the only thing that change. the world, man, and this is why. Because when you're faced with choices that are bigger than anything you could actually probably just settle for yourself, it's bigger than anything you know. Yes. All you've got is, well, I got a story that says if I step out there, and that's why people move. That's such a great example to me. We are in church right now. Wow. Wow. I'm like,

All right. So when I got all kinds of caught up in what you were saying. Here we go. When the members of Silver Bluff Baptist return to South Carolina, they are likely re-enslaved, but they keep Silver Bluff Baptist going and it is still in operation today.

I wondered. I wonder. Wow. They keep it going. We got a legacy. Look at that. 270. When you are black in America, we just don't get those kinds of numbers attached to our history.

That's just so stunning just to even see that number. Yes. Okay. So they keep it going. When Brother Lyle makes it to Jamaica, he becomes an indentured servant and then eventually he's free. He opens Baptist churches across the island that teach countless black children and adults to read at great personal risk. They say like 10,000 people, but I'm like, I don't know. Yeah.

I'm always suspicious of historical estimates too. But he had such an impact on literacy. on the island and that's what he was doing for both enslaved people and free people. That's amazing. That's his legacy. After the American Revolution, 20,000 loyalists, black and white, choose to relocate to Nova Scotia.

David George, Phyllis, and their kids are among that number. So they're on the boat. All right, David and Phyllis. In the movie, we'll see Sir Guy Carlton on the docks in New York City. His General Birch approaches and hands him the Book of Negroes.

This contains the names and escape stories of 3,000 black loyalists. Birch will say, Sir, I've totaled the value of all the black loyalists in this ledger so that you can pay George Washington back like you promised. At this, Carlton will laugh and laugh and say, imagine paying reparations for slavery. I'm sure the Americans will just let it go.

Everybody say let it go. Let it go. All right. Wow. By way of intermission, I wanted to talk about the Book of Negroes a little bit. Yes, please. Yes, yes. So we're actually going to hear from it.

This book contains the first and last names of the people who went to Nova Scotia and a little bit about their escape story, how they got free. The descriptions are very disrespectful, so I took those out, and I adjusted some of the language to make it very clear. But Chioka is going to come up, and he's going to read a few of those entries. These are all the people, our courageous ancestors, who manage to survive slavery or war, make it to New York City, find the right location, get their name in the ledger,

collect a certificate, and make it onto a ship. to freedom. When I tell you, now, I told you I'm not religious, that though, that's my religion. Amen. That's my faith. Amen. That's, if I came from that, I mean, who couldn't be against me? That's amazing. Seriously. Brother Chioki. Harry Washington. Harry Washington. 43. Fine fellow. Formerly the property of General Washington left him seven years ago. Francis Brough 18

Stout Fellow Black Born at Grenada from whence he was taken by General Arnold He left the general at Quebec and is now free Chloe One month Born free within British lines Phyllis Sparrow

Phyllis Sparro 28, Milato formerly slave to Charles Sudan of Brunswick, New Jersey, left him seven years past with Nana Sparrow, 11. Nass Sparrow. Suki Sparrow. Suki Sparrow. Nine.

John Sparrow. John Sparrow. Three. Jane Thompson. Jane Thompson. Seventy. With a grandchild, four years old, says she was born free, live with Colonel Tucker of Norfolk, Virginia.

Left him six years ago. These persons appear to be the property of William Wilson, they having fallen to him in a marriage settlement. Ginny Bruce 15. Fine girl, three-fourths-white. Betsy Bruce. Betsy Bruce. 13, fine girl, three-fourths-white. Hilly Ivy.

12, fine girl, black. Harry Jackson. Harry Jackson. Eight. A good boy. Let me just say this. I go through all that. I make it.

Bureaucratic hurdles, conniving geopolitics and unfaithful statesmen, only to get there and have you write down that I was stout. And I mean this. I think I will haunt you from beyond the grave. for the rest of your lines life. You would deserve it. Yeah, they would deserve it.

All right, let's bring our bells for Act 2. All right, so this is a little fun fact to start us off. Until more recently, when Canadian students met the colonists aboard those ships leaving America, they did not meet them as traitors or losers. They know them as the United Empire Loyalists, the principled, genteel, wealthy, all-white heroes of the American insurrection. So it looks a little different in Canada. So it's the summer of 1783 now.

We're back in time. 20,000 loyalists have begun arriving on a rocky little peninsula up by Maine called Nova Scotia. There's a large white population already there that's mainly ex-Americans. The First Nations would call these people illegals. Everyone starts spreading. Oh, yeah. Did you all see where Nova Scot? Yeah, you see where it is.

So everyone starts spreading out across the province, but 10,000 black and white people head to a town on the southern coast. called Shelburne. Everybody says it's pretty empty. We don't know why. Don't worry about it. The loyalists... Okay. The loyalists vets expect to arrive

and receive a plot of land with rations waiting for them. The black loyalists expect all that too plus freedom. Everybody say freedom. Freedom. Okay, so when I'm researching, I'll read just like this one line of something.

It'll be like, so-and-so ended up here. And I'll be like, why? Like, what happens? and what would lead you to make this decision? And it's just not in there. And so what researchers often do, the stories do, they sort of form a hypothesis and start researching the hypothesis. So I have formed a hypothesis that I'm going to take us all on a journey into

as to why this one line is in the archive. I love a hypothesis. Let's go. Okay, here we love it. All right. So we know that David heads to Shelburne while Phyllis and the kids stay in Halifax. This is presumably until David finds work in housing. Okay.

So let's imagine all the boat's docking. White folks start heading in the direction of Shelburne, but black folks head in the opposite direction, fourish miles and a river away. So we're picturing David, he's looking around, he's confused. Then he bumps into Harry Washington. So we know he'd survived the war. He made it to Nova Scotia.

David says, where all the black people going? And Harry says, to the promised land, follow me. Ooh. They head to a lush green community in the forest that the black loyalist named Birchtown. It's not the best spot in the province. It's right on the water. It's near a swamp.

But it is run by the elite fighters that serve under the late great Colonel Ty who died valiantly in battle. Colonel Ty is back. Colonel Ty's back. Okay. So these men, they aren't city planners, but during the war, they'd specialized in raids, ambushes, and assassination. They know they'll be safe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And rumor has it that when this G-unit, when they left America, they'd have to be. their guns. Yeah. So maybe that is why 2,000 out of 3,000 black loyalists choose to live in Birchtown. It's where everybody goes.

So Colonel Ty has passed away but his fighters and his memory still remain. So they have set up shop in Burgetown most of the black people set up shop there too. The living in Burstown is tough. The black loyalists get fewer rations

and supplies because science says that they are less human. They get to talk into the megmog indigenous people though and they learn that shellburn in the surrounding area, it's solid rock. It's completely unfarmable. The land's terrible. That's why it's so empty. The Mi'Mong are like, we wouldn't live here. We only come here in the summertime. What are you guys doing?

So the black folks are like, oh my God, the British. But the Minghbong are like, don't worry. We're going to help you out. We're going to build what I call pit houses, which is when you dig, they're dug into the ground and then you use pine trees to build the roof. Okay. And this is all they have to do it this way because the British won't give them lumber. Right. But the Minghbock are like, okay, we're going to figure it out. So they got homes. the black loyalists organized work crews and safety patrols and then I'm sure the New England blacks teach the southern blacks are like, okay, this is winter, it's coming, get ready, you know, that's tough for southern.

I'm going to tell you true, I was thinking so petty when you said they went south for some reason. I was thinking, yeah, it's cold. But no, I know. Every time I tell the story, this is why I was like, is it going to come up? Every time black people were like Nova Scotia, like cold? I don't know where it is, but it's cold. Our spirit feels that.

It's like, we're going to be all right. It's going to be too cold. Yeah. So, but the New England blacks know how to deal with it. So they're like, okay, you guys, get ready. So this is by no means a perfect scenario. But the black loyalists of Birchtown are now the largest community of free black people on the continent and likely in the world outside of Africa. So history only captures the misery of Birchtown.

But let's do an exercise. Let's imagine you're finally free for the first time ever. If you were in their shoes, what do you think you would do with your time now that it's your own? That's just it, whatever I want. Because that is the point, right? We were just talking about this earlier with Lisa. Like, that's the point that you can do whatever you want. I would expect that, again, we're just talking about human beings.

And based on the things we just heard, many of them still relatively young, I'm thinking I'm forming families, left and right. Right? The idea that you know you can put down the roots and, like, shoes, and you could, like, you know, all of that emerges for the first. time. I'm thinking what has been the through line for my people is that they start a school. I mean, you know, I will forever be stunned that, you know, what, three years out of slavery. And we have essentially a school system. That's just, that's remarkable. So I'm thinking in schools.

There's religion, obviously. So I'm thinking a church, right? And there would be a thriving. I'd be building a lot of faith communities. But yeah, this is fascinating. But yeah, I think I would just, they're choosing. Just making choices every day, whichever ones they want. What would you do in the wilderness? Yeah. What are you into in the out in the great?

Well, can't you tell? I'm such an outdoor girl. Can't you tell? You're just hiking every day. You love hiking. Everybody's always saying, look at that Tracy on another hike. So it's the thing. I believe it during COVID shutdowns, I did start hiking a lot.

because it was all you can do. So I will hike, but I'm not sleeping. I don't do none. I don't do none of the rest of that. But I'm going to say, these folks have been working hard. We're born to be units of labor. I'm thinking, I ain't hiking. So, like, my mother thinks I'm crazy.

She's like, you know how hard I work to never use an outhouse or anything again in my life? And you want me to sleep outside? Like, she thinks camping is like a pathology. She thinks it's insane. So, no, I don't think I'm doing that. But I can see, like, developing leisure. Like a leisure activity would emerge, right? And you're in, like, nature, I can just, I can't imagine, like, a lot of exploring.

I can imagine doing a lot of, you know, again, they bring a lot of skills with them. There's, you know, you've got people who know how to do plants and, you know, botany and to make things. I'm thinking that I would be doing that type of thing with the land. Yes. Since now I can and I have to worry about hiding it from a master. Yes. Right. All those things that basically I had to hide.

Yes. That's why I'd be thinking, you know, the, um, the sister in sinners, her house out there. That's pretty much me. That's what you're going to do. Yeah, I'm making potions. I'm doing, you know, but like freely, just out in the open. Yes.

Well, you did mention churches. Yes. And the black loyalists are super Christians. Okay. Religion is to them what the algorithm is to us. Got it. Brought to you by shady people you shouldn't trust, but yet you like, you engage, you follow. I am going to steal that so hard.

You have no idea how I'm stealing that. But that is amazing. That's really good. Their influencers are the preachers, and the equivalent of their phones is the Methodist Meeting House. They turn to it for everything. It's where the kids go to school, where people get married, and of course, where they have church. In my movie, Pastor David George heads to the Methodist Meeting House. He's going to go meet with their lead pastor.

So we'll see David in the sanctuary. He's waiting expectantly. Maybe there'll be like a flashback of Kirk Franklin, Revolution, the historical. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Our ancient hymn. And so suddenly, an old man begins making his way down the aisle with the help of a cane. He's blind. He says, Brother David, I'm so pleased the Lord brought you here today, but you can tell he's not pleased.

I was about to say something to this day. Preachers don't like no new preacher showing up. So the minute you said, he thinks they're waiting to receive this great. And I was thinking, brother, he, uh-uh. This is the first time it's happened, so he didn't know this yet. Okay. I've been to church. I've been to some church conventions, and I expected nothing less.

But okay. All right, Brother David. David George says, Brother Moses, what a blessing, but you can tell. Oh, that's shady. That's shady. Everybody always says that they're like, a blessing, shade. Yeah, that's shady. This is Moses Wilkinson, a.

A.K.A. Old Moses. He's a formerly enslaved minister from Virginia who'd managed to escape to the British lines during the war, make it up to Nova Scotia. And the way that he preached, the Exodus story, very legendary. People say he gets so into it that his congregants worry that he's going to have a heart attack. That's how hard he goes. Okay. And the movie David would be like, well, I mean, I also am very good at preaching it. I mean, you know, but people are worried about my heart too. But it's not the same. So David will be like, hello, Pastor Moses. I think I'm the perfect assistant pastor for you. And I also think that here in the promised land, black and white people,

can go to church together. Oh. Moses will be like, excuse me? Yeah. Interracial church is a colonial-era Baptist belief, but Moses is a Methodist. This is a Methodist meeting house. So yes, our ancestors have just survived slavery and a war,

and they're now some of the freest black people in the world, but Baptists and Methodists can't just go to church together. I think we all know that. This is not going to be okay. That's amazing. So I picture old Moses telling David, well, your application to the ministry is denied. This is Methodist country, and mark my words, black and white people go into church together will only lead to trouble. Now it's time for our next major decision.

If you're David George, would you rather live in Birchtown with your people, but you cannot do the thing that you love, which is preach, or would you rather live in Shelburne with a bunch of scary white people, but maybe, you can preach there. How much would you sacrifice for a dream? Okay. Okay, so my first thing is. Now, so here's my first problem. I know.

I'm hopelessly contemporary, and I'm projecting. I just want to admit that. And I'm going to tell you truth. I'm not sure Brother David is so much responding to a calling as Brother David wants to be important. Ooh. So, bells are ringing. I'm just saying competition is competition.

And I am thinking, you know, the young upstart smelling himself, as my people would say, he thinks it's his time, right? Some of these impulses are older than nations. That's right. So I'm thinking that I know what I would do, but I think I think that's different than what David would do. Because I actually would. If my people have just come through this, I want solidarity and safety so badly.

I will do whatever job you assign me. You're standing Burchdown. That's right. There's no way I'm going and putting myself back into that, which now may not be a legal separation, but we know there are lots of ways to create differences and impress people. I'm not going back up to shellburn and do that. The memory of that is still too fresh.

But I don't think that's what is motivated by the day. That's what Brother David's going to do? Brother David, I think, needs a pulpit and some followers and some faithful church ladies. I think he's like, if I got to go with white people to have it, I'll do it. Okay. That's what I think. Okay. Who is going to Shelburne?

Thank you, y'all. I see you after back there. We'll talk about this. We'll talk about this. Okay. And who is staying in Birchtown? Oh, wow. That's the room.

That's the majority of the room. But we did have a handful shout out to the people who are going to Shelburne. Yeah. We're not judging. Remember we said at the beginning? That's true. We're not judging. Now, I said that to you.

I ain't said everybody. And I will have a light meeting after this if you wanted to discuss that decision. All of your decision. All right. So this is all a hypothesis. Okay. This is, all of this is to get to this. One line.

David George chooses to live in Shelburne. Just like you guess. Yeah. So our ancestor gets to Shelburne and he finds that the British have prepared nothing. Of course. There's no infrastructure. There's no housing. Everybody's living in tents.

In modern terms... In modern terms, this is Fire Festival. That's good. That's good. And they say they have no culture. Look, what about this is the thing you pointed out? Because all the skilled people, like, the Lauren, they agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They don't have to do anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Oh, my God. All right.

So, the man who was in charge of getting the water, if you know, you know, is a bureaucrat from Boston named Benjamin Marston. So the governor of Nova Scotia took his job as more of a retirement gig. So he was like Marston. I'm going to empower you to handle all of this loyalist resettlement business. And I don't want to hear about any trouble. And then he goes and he goes golfing or whatever. We don't know. He's not really in the story after that.

So Marston is in charge of everything. And when he sees the loyalist, who history remembers, you remember, as like loyal and noble and genteel and all this, he's like, underwhelmed. Here's what he writes about them and his diary. Can I have you read that one? Oh, I get to do it. Yes. It's exciting. These poor people are like sheep without a shepherd.

They have no men of abilities among them. It's exactly, yep. They're shiftless and lazy. Yeah. Okay. But he's like, you know what? This is what I got. I'm going to do the best I came with what I got.

So I picture Marston showing up to work, and he's greeted by thousands of war-weary, unhoused ex-Americans. They're like Marston. Where's our land and our rations and our jobs? Also, we want income equality in this colony, but there better not be any racial equality. Oh, I've been to that meeting before. You've been to the meeting? Sounds familiar.

I've been to that reading group. I know who that is. That's great. Marston is like, okay, first of all, good morning. Next, announcements, three of them. One. We're going to give you land, but it has to be assigned one at a time. We've got to break it up into lots and give it to you that way. So can y'all form like a 10,000 person line, rich people to the front, obviously.

Two, we were going to bring your food rations in by sea, but American pirates keep raiding our boats. So now we need to build roads to bring them in by land from a town that is miles and miles and miles and miles away through solid rock and force. It is going to take a while. I hope you're good at dieting or whatever. Announcement number three. When the black loyalists were enslaved, they were forced to be. be carpenters and construction workers and civil engineers. And a lot of you white guys are poor ex-farmers. We are trying to build a metropolis here. So as you can imagine, the business

dudes of Shelburne have decided to give all the jobs to the black loyalists and just pay them next to nothing. This is not my fault. End of announcements. The white loyalists are furious. Of course. Divide and conquer from the outset, by the way. This is just 101. This is just proto-capitalism one-on-one. Well, we would give you all this wonderful stuff for those black people. people. Those immigrants. Those Chinese, they look, they showed up, they took your jobs, they're taking your stuff. I mean, this is 101, man. This is it.

This is exactly what they did. So they're like, Marston, this sucks and it's all your fault. And then they open a bunch of taverns and get wasted in them. And that's why out-of-towners come to call them the dancing beggars of Shelburne. No. That's their nickname. All right, so David

heads to the part of Shelburne where black people live that has been creatively named Blacktown. If we named it, I love it. If we didn't name it, I hate it. That's a very good point. That is exactly how I'm thinking about it. We would name it that.

That's what I'm saying. I just assume because we would do like... Listen, my people have been my people since we were my people. Yes, if we got an opportunity to call it Blacktown, we call it that. So I just assume, but you're right. I hope we did. Yes, yeah. That's true.

We did it. Boom, we hate that. Yeah. So it's also all tense. and it sounds like here David George confronts the enormity of his choices. He's separated from his family. Food is scarce.

The white loyalists have dreamt up what will much later call Jim Crow laws and they are forcing them on the Blacktown residents. Was this deliverance? I'm going to have you read what happens next. Okay. I began to sing the first night at a camp. Black people came from far and near to listen.

I kept on every night in the week. Then I appointed a meeting for the first Lord, Ward's Day, close by the river, a great number of white and black people came. And I was so overjoyed with having an opportunity once more to preach that I could not speak for tears. He's turning it around. Then, guess what? A white guy gives him some land and the community helps him build a Baptist meeting house. Black and white people start attending and he starts baptizing people left and right. Then...

The drunk people in the picture. The drunk people come. Praise the Lord, David. Praise the Lord. Then the governor hears about David George, and he's shipped extra rations. He's granted more land. And Phyllis and the kids are sent from Halifax

to finally reunite with him in Shelburne. David and Phyllis have homes constructed on their land for members of their congregation. They appoint church elders. The pews sound full. David is like, we are so back. Yeah. So do you have any advice for our ancestors in this moment?

Things not looking up. Listen, listen, far be it for me to question, because listen, I couldn't do a fourth of it. I just am deeply suspicious of this overnight investments in a single black person and black family. I think that what was happening in the other town looked more collective to me and this is starting to feel a little prosperity gospelish but hey, I don't know nothing. I don't know everything, Nicole, I don't know everything.

So I don't know. I'm like on the one hand, throw it again, yes, it looks like his choices are paying off and it looks like he has been blessed. But again, is that the way that God proves you're blessed? I don't know. I don't really like, yeah, I'm a little concerned. I'm a little nervous, but I am happy for them and their choice.

I'm really happy for that sister because he just left, I mean, where has she been in the story? She was up in Halifax with the kids. Yes, see, I'm very happy for that. Yeah. All right. Now it's summer 1784. Our ancestors have been in Nova Scotia for about a year. Okay.

The British government has failed to live up to its promises for about a year. Now, the loyalists could have united to hold their government accountable, but instead they turn on each other. Rich versus poor, Baptist versus Methodist, unemployed versus employed. So that's white versus black. And all the while, more and more loyalists keep pouring into Shellburn. So this is your classic powder keg situation. But for now, everything's fine. Marston writes the following about the loyalist in his diary. And for clarity, and Normandy means crime. So here's what he says about them in this moment. upon the whole considering who and what they are and the confused way they are huddled together it is much in their favor that we have had no great enormities committed amongst us yeah so he's like

these people are in this like the bottom of the barrel but they're not killing each other they're not working with much yeah at least they haven't turned to murder uh-huh yeah yeah so one day in july 1784, David George and his congregation meet up at the Baptist Meeting House. This is one in Shelburne. We're picturing excitement in the air because today is baptism Sunday. I don't know if it's actually Sunday, but that's the vibe, you know. White, all white, all that. So we're imagining singing and rejoicing and excitement as everyone heads on down to the river to witness people be reborn. Now the gossip around Shelburne is that an out-of-town couple named Mr. and Mrs. Holmes have traveled to the city specifically to be baptized

by David George. Okay. Mr. and Mrs. Holmes are white. This is a big deal. Uh-huh. This is a big deal. That fact might be why a group of white loyalists who are likely out of work,

broke ex-soldiers, also head on down to the river. Uh-oh. So everybody's there. I'm picturing the couple in David George stepping into the water while Phyllis keeps one eye on them and the other on the white loyalists.

So the vibe is very tense. David baptizes Mr. homes first and everything goes fine. No reports of trouble. But the wife. Then Mrs. Holmes steps up. Yep. Can you read David's account of what happened next? Oh. Okay. Okay. Mrs. Holmes' sister laid hold of her hair to keep her from going down into the water. Yeah, so she runs out there into the water, tries to stop this baptism. So you got a picture like these two white ladies thrashing about in the river. likely because the sister does not want him baptized by this black man. Well, this is a deeply intimate thing.

That's what I said. Yeah, it might be all right for it. But now a black man is getting ready to touch a white woman in public who will be wet, which is a level of transparency we think of, right? Like, yeah, no, that's huge. It's huge. Yeah. And he's just like, no, I'm doing it.

And the sister's thinking about her reputation and her, yeah, yeah. Okay. So somebody ends up having to call the law. We can imagine Benjamin Marston shows up. He's rolling his eyes because you already know what he thinks of these people, these white loyalists. He's like, the lady says she wants to be baptized. The letter be baptized.

So she's baptized. Okay. Everybody leaves. David George will be asked to give an account of this event later in his life, and here's what he says happened next. Several of the black people had houses upon my lot, but 40 or 50 disbanded soldiers came up with the tackle of ships and turned my house in every day.

one of their houses quite over. The meeting house they would have burned down had not the ring leader of the mob prevented it. So the white loyalists have formed a mob. They've destroyed David's home and the homes of those living on his land, but not the Baptist meeting house.

And here's how David responds. I continued preaching. They came one night and stood before the pulpit and swore how they would treat me if I preached again. I stayed and preached. The next day they came and beat me with sticks and drove me into the swamp.

After the mob chases David into the swamp, they spread out across black town, looting, rioting, attaching ropes to homes and ripping them down, attacking any black loyalist in sight. Benjamin Marston writes about it in his diary. Riot today. The disbanded soldiers have risen against the free Negroes to drive them out of town because they labor cheaper than they, the soldiers. David George, Phyllis and the kids, escape with the rest of Blacktown

to the one place they hope that they will be safe, fourish miles and a river away. So now most of Black Nova Scotia is in Birchtown and likely bracing for attack. And here's what the mob would have known about their community. To get there, they'd have to make it across the river through a lush green forest and swamps

and undoubtedly all along the way there would be black men waiting for them. men like Harry Washington who'd escaped America's commander in chief and fought with the words Liberty for slaves written across his chest men who served in Colonel Tye's elite guerrilla unit

and specialized in raids, ambushes, and assassinations. And rumor has it that when the veterans of Birchtown left America, they'd kept their guns. That's right. The rioting continues for 10 days. The white loyalists carry out attacks

against government officials, the wealthy, and each other. town is destroyed. But despite all that chaos, there are no accounts of any successful attacks on Birchtown. The continent's largest community of free black people survive, the Shelburne race riots, which historians cite is Canada's first and one of the continent's earliest recorded race riots. And you know, it's unfair to Canada, because we brought that there. I'm serious. I'm serious. I mean, it's not that they are perfect or anything, and they got their own problem, speak to the indigenous peoples, but

like, we brought that. You know, you can't let us in your house. By which I mean, by which I meant, you know what I'm, the loyalism and whatnot. But yeah, I, again, the safety was never in being special. The safety was in being in the number. Yes.

That's what, this was exactly my fear. He was special, hyper-visible, in town where the class warfare between the poor white laborers and the richer white loyal. I mean, this is the only way I think they can end. They knew the safety was being together. That's why I'm going with them. That's why.

I don't care how uncomfortable it is. Freedom is actually, freedom is not being special. Freedom is being able to choose where you feel safe. So now we're going to fast forward eight years. It's 1792. When we meet back up with David George, he and Phyllis and the kids have left Birchtown. I imagine it a little bit of a huff. Yeah.

Because, I mean, you have to picture him and Phyllis show up to church after being at the center of the first recorded race ride in Canadian history. So, you know. And do you know what Phyllis been saying to him for them eight years? I got a clue. I know what I would have been saying to him. And now he got to come rolling himself on that hour. And every Sunday you're just there. And everybody's like, Brother Davis.

Are y'all inviting any white people to church today? Be sure you tell us next time. You like your house? Oh, you know. How's the house? You like it? Oh, you know. Church people, it's just like, oh, it's just brutal, right?

And it's all so sweet. Oh. Uh-huh. Oh. So happy to have you back, brother. Yes, what a blessing. Yeah. So the archive does not get into any of the drama.

It just says that David was able to preach house to house, but in the end. And he and Phyllis left Birchtown because he read the reason. Okay, okay. My own color persecuted me there. Now, Brother David. Brother David. You know, I know that the Exodus story is an important one time. I've got to tell you, this story is shaping up to be a much more, as instructive as that story.

I mean, this has everything. because now he's going to be Clarence Thomas Oh what, y'all scared? Y'all think Clarence can fight me? I said it. Everything. And now my own color

persecuted me. David. You know. Yeah, all right. David becomes an itinerant preacher. He's traveling from town to town. and his popularity just keeps growing. Okay.

So let's picture him returning home from a preaching trip one day. He'll walk through his front door and a man will be standing there in front of the fire. Phyllis will say, David, we have a visitor. This is Thomas Peters. In the movie, Thomas Peters will turn around dramatically

and he'll say, hello, David, George. I found a new, true promised land for our people and I can get us there, but I need your help. Everyone, it's time to make one final decision. Okay. Okay, so Thomas Peters, he was, he's rumored to be an African prince.

So here's the thing. He is, he's a descendant from a Yoruba tribe, which is Nigeria. He is a prince, so he is a Nigerian prince who is in need of help. In the way that one is a Nigerian prince, you know, I got it, I got it. Read the internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he's a prince and he needs some help getting back to his kingdom and only you can do it. But in a way that you can believe, don't worry about it.

Nicole, girl. So Thomas was rumored to be an African prince. He's kidnapped and enslaved in Louisiana. He fought for the British in the war, and now he's in Nova Scotia. He'd been going from town to town looking for work and land. And in the process, he's also gathering news from across Black Nova Scotia. He learns that even though the Black Loyalists were the labor force building up, up the colony. They were barely making enough money to survive. In the winter, they were freezing

sometimes to death, and they were starving year round. But their biggest issue is slavery. There were enslaved people in Nova Scotia before the black loyalists arrived there, and the white loyalists did bring 2,000 enslaved ancestors with them. Yeah. They never go far without bringing their enslaved people, yeah. On top of that, their former enslavers from America were coming up to Nova Scotia. and contesting black folks' legal rights of freedom. Some were being straight up kidnapped back into slavery. So our ancestors are being disappeared and they're terrified

and determined to stay free. So they had to plan. They put Thomas Peters in charge of executing it. So here we go. He gets himself on a ship sailing to London. Now, not all black people know each other, but in this case, it does seem like he ran into some black loyalists that he used to know back in America.

And so they're like, oh, my God, like what's the word? How's everybody doing over there? He tells them everything. They're like, oh, no, brough, because they're turning British now. And then... But you know what? I like brough. I like it when I say it.

Yeah, yeah. Indris Elba churned me on brub. I like it. I like it down. We like it. Yeah. So he tells them, they're like, oh, no. And then they connect him with the leaders of an abolitionist group called the Committee for the Relief of the Black Poor.

So this is a group of rich, well-meaning white people. Grandville Sharp is the man in charge. She's the guy in green. Okay. And they love music and helping black people. So Thomas tells them everything. And they're like, you know what? We've all been talking about this.

And we think that black people might always face discrimination in majority white spaces. It's just like a feeling we're in this or something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're wondering if the best shot y'all have is to be in Africa, where you'll be the majority. Yes, yep.

All right, right. We actually sent 600 black people to a British colony called Sierra Leone to test this theory, but they all died. Somebody said they needed vaccines and a brokered peace with the native tribes, whose land we saw, but we think the problem was that they weren't Christian enough. Yeah, of course. So we want to try the Sierra Leone thing again, but where are we going to find hundreds of black super Christians

looking to relocate right now? Yeah. And Thomas Peters is like, who! That's exactly it. So now he's back in Nova Scotia. In the scene, he's pitching David George and Phyllis on getting on one more boat and traveling to Africa. He'll be like, David, Phyllis, this time it's going to be so different. Yeah.

It's not going to be like all the other times before. The British government will give us land, rations, and freedom from slavery. For real. For real. It's going to be illegal. Slavery will be illegal there. Africa was the promised land all along. David, will you help me get our people on board?

I can imagine Phyllis interjecting and asking the question that I'm sure we all have. which is how do we know the British are going to keep any of these promises, or that they won't sell us back into slavery. And Thomas Peters will say, well, because the British promised, it's time for your final major decision. You're David, George, and Phyllis. Are you getting on one more boat to go to Africa? Or are you going to stay and try to work it out in Nova Scotia?

So I'm thinking, I know why Thomas wants him. because the nonprofit sent them to go get them. And, I mean, I just, I'm sorry, I've been in so many meetings that look exactly like that. Some of them even had on those outfits. So I'm thinking, you know, I know their commitments, I give them their interest are. I get Thomas's interest. He wants to be the one to facilitate. He's a dealmaker.

David likes to think of himself as somebody he makes deals and is being called. It's so important that the Lord would call him in a sense. something this great and this big. I think he's going to go. It's going to be a disaster. I would not go. If I'm Phyllis, I would tell him, go, send me a letter to tell me how it is.

They sent for me later. Yeah, that's where I would be right now. You're staying put. This man has pulled her from pillar to post. It's true. She can't make any friends. He's like, he's never around to help with that baby.

But that's what I thing, but I'm interested to know. If you are getting on that boat and you're going to Sierra Leone, let's hear it. Okay. And then if you're staying in Nova Scotia, let's hear it. All right. So the majority

of the room is staying in Nova Scotia. This is very Canadian of you. This is how Toronto voted. Okay. They were all like, we're done. Yeah, see, and I feel, I'm feeling some kinship there with them. Yeah, with the Canadians, yeah. Yeah. And you know what

I just realized, too, the other thing, all that nonprofit is giving Thomas in them is a god. They ain't got no guns. Oh, yeah. They're not equipping them to be safe. I've learned my lesson now here that like I need that, you know? But yeah, no, I'm with Toronto.

I feel Toronto on that. All right. David George and Phyllis decide they're in. Yeah. I was worth. I was worried about this. David agrees to help with promo and logistics.

They tell the church influencers the influencers tell their followers. Everyone's liking, everyone's subscribing, but then according to David. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The white people of Nova Scotia were very unwilling that we should go. Though they had been very cruel to us

and treated many of us as bad as though we had been slaves, they attempted to persuade us that if we went away, we should all be slaves again. Mm-hmm. Without the skilled cheap labor of black loyalists, the wealthy and the landowners will lose their investments and their influence. So the powers that be concoct elaborate bureaucratic roadblocks

and spread conspiracy theories that everyone that goes in this voyage will be sailing back into slavery. Nevertheless, 1,196 people board 15 ships and are out. Yeah. It sounds like more would have gone if there had been room. Yeah.

Here's a few words about their story. 1792 voyage from David George, founder of one of America's first black church, a survivor of one of the continent's first recorded race riots and key organizers of one of the world's earliest and largest back to Africa expeditions. Gosh, stunning. Our passage was seven weeks stormy weather. There was great joy to see the land and the high mountain in the distance. Free town, where we now live, appeared like a cloud to us. I preached the first Lord's Day and it was a blessed time.

Can we make some noise for our ancestors? Amen. All right. All right, so let me tell you what happened to everybody with all these choices that you made. If you ended up at number 10, that's in Sierra Leone, let's hear it. All right. All right.

I'll visit. I would definitely visit y'all. So let me tell you a little about your legacy. The enslaved people of America term black loyalists of Nova Scotia turned Nova Scotian settlers once they arrived in Sierra Leone were colonists.

We honor them but we cannot ignore that fact. That's right. They end up having lots of beef with other Africans and the British and each other, more church drama. But they figure it out enough to make babies and today their descendants

are known as the Creole people of Sierra Leone who count among their number, Idris Elba and the late great Chadwick Bosn. How'd be doggones. Edwick, y'all. That makes me so happy.

They figured it out. And they came back home eventually. These children, they came back. Yes. Oh. Thomas Peters has a golden statue built in his honor, as in the end he was their Moses, who finally led them out of Egypt. David George continued on as a preacher, community leader, and abolitionist activist. And even Harry Washington moved to Sierra Leone, where he ended up taking a revolutionary stand against British influence in their colony.

All right. All right. Who ended up at number nine, you stayed in Nova Scotia? I'm so scared. That's us. Let's own it, everybody. Let's own it. Thank you.

All right, so this is your part of the Black Loyalist legacy. I feel like I ain't going to get no Chadwick. After the mass exodus of Black Loyalists, development in Shellburn stalls and the town eventually empties out. The Black Loyalist settlements lost half their community to the Sierra Leone expedition, but those that remain offer refuge to other African Americans on the continent, black loyalist towns become some of the northernmost stops on the Underground Railroad. See, you guys did it too.

An estimated 50,000 enslaved people in America escaped to Canada via the Underground Railroad, but we like don't know. I mean, it was a secret, you know. I am so afraid that I'm getting ready to get stuck with Drake, by the way, that I can barely hear a word you're saying. I am terrified. I'm not going to give you Drake. Okay. Don't worry about it.

That's all I've been thinking for the last three minutes that if I turn around and I see Drake, I am out of here. But okay, okay, okay, okay. Oh my God, okay. Today, Birchtown is home to the Black Loyalist Heritage Center who've welcomed me into their archives and have been walking me through this history since 2020.

So a very special thank you. thank you to Black Loyalist Scholar Graham Nickerson. He was raised in Shelburne, actually, and he never knew this history, but then he became a historian, and he starts working with them. And then through the Book of Negroes, he discovers that he is a Black Loyalist descendant from Virginia. No. Yes. Yes. We're family. We really are. Yeah, that's stunning. Yeah. All right. Did anyone stay in America? Oh, yeah. Okay, I remember there were two of y'all. Don't make me look in your direction.

But there were two. Okay. All right, well, let me tell you, there's a debate around how America has commemorated the black loyalist legacy. Let me tell you the point of contention. It's around the war of 1812. It was 20 years after the black loyalist left for Sierra Leone. That conflict saw the U.S. and Britain face off again, enslaved people fight for the British on the promise of freedom again.

they escaped to Canada again, only this time they were called the Black Refugees. Some scholars think that the Americans, possibly incensed by yet another betrayal by the people they'd enslaved, adopted an anthem with a verse that was a direct threat to the Black refugees and the loyalist example they'd followed.

Others say we can't know what this line meant, and maybe the Americans had let the escapes and the fighting for the British and all that go. Everybody say, let it go. Let it go. Here's the verse. no refuge could save the hireling and slave from the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave

and the star-spangled banner and triumph doth wave or the land of the free and the home of the brave. There's so much more that happened, but for now that is the story of the black loyalists and their revolutionary quest for a promised land. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. All right, so at the end of that story, how are you feeling? Tell us what's going on.

highs and lows of that. Yes. So again, so many of the things, I'm always struck about this when we do like a historical story, how little things change. Like the political economy changes, all those things change, but fundamentally our conflicts

are just so similar. Yes. Right? Competing for labor. Yes. Using the division of race in migration status to control. control labor, religion's role in both

helping people imagine freedom and in keeping them chained to the people who enslaved them. I mean, all of the contradictions. They're all there in this story, and I find that so stunning. And to think about it through individuals, because that's all we're ever

doing. It's just people trying to make choices. And what really struck me about us doing the choices there, all jokes aside, is like, there really were no good choices. Right. The freedom they had gotten

wasn't that there was something good necessarily waiting for them, is that they at least got to choose. Yes. That was the freedom. And that's as good sometimes maybe as we're going to get. That's it.

And I feel like right now, in the moment we're living in, that's very, I maybe need to know that and they remember it. That sometimes it isn't that there are any good choices, honey. It says at least I'm alive and I get to choose. And my people did a lot

to just be able to do that. To choose between a swamp, and the unknown. And that to them was freedom. And I don't know. That feels real important to me right now. But that's a heck of a story. So on this anniversary,

knowing that we're here, this is our country, this is where we live, this is where we're from. How do you sit with your American identity? How do you make peace with it? What's your relationship to that part of your identity? So you asked me at the top of the show

what kind of black person I am. And my answer was, I'm a regular black person, that's also my citizenship status. Like if you ask me what kind of American I am, I'm going to tell you I'm a regular black person. Because to me, in blackness, the blackness that I come from that is a sending here that gets created here, you know, black is the category, the identity that gets created here as a response to the creation of racism that is fomented and perfected in the American contradiction of democracy and freedom is that I am.

the most American in that sense. I only exist because America does, and America only exists because I do. So I just feel, you know, and I'm thinking about quite little, you know, because of the work I do, they keep asking me to, you know, contribute this to 50 things. I'm sure you like this.

You got tons of these. And, you know, I want to come read the declarative. No. Yeah, and I want to come. Even Frederick Douglass, who I do listen to his. No, not really, you know, Chiok has got a better voice for that and all that kind of thing. You know, could I reflect on where America is in 250? This is what I loved about this story.

What do you mean to reflect? You don't have to look. We're not different enough, I think, to be reflecting. What are we? What are we? We have the same Exodus story, whether it's the civil rights movement or it was going to Nova Scotia. Yes. Right?

You have the same class warfare used to pull everybody back in, right? to the story and the self-delusion. There's so much continuity there that what feels strange to me about being asked to reflect on 250 is, I mean, are we different enough to warrant reflection? Isn't it enough to just read the news?

If I can pick up the newspaper at any point in this country's history and see the same story, what am I reflecting on? Reflection is from when you have distance. Yeah. I reflect on a relationship once it's over. You know? We're still in it. What's the reflection? We're still doing the thing. We are. We really are still just doing the thing.

Oh my goodness, Tressy. This has been such a pleasure. This is the most fun. Listen, and I had high expectation. This was better than I could have ever imagined. And I want to say two quick things I've been holding this whole time. One, your family is too pretty. They are such an attractive little family. They're so cute.

They are. Look at them. I did. I've been wanting to say that for like an hour. And the second thing I wanted to say was when I think the inevitable happens, when you become a really big deal and star, will you just please? Just, you know, still, you know, send me a little invite to the show. No.

It is not just that this is good. You are good. You're good. So when the inevitable happens, just, that's all I ask. Forever. No, that's all I asked. Put me on an occasional little list somewhere. You're always on it.

You're always on it. Everybody heard it. It's official. It's official. Thank you. And thanks, y'all. Y'all were so fun. This was so fun.

Thanks for coming out. It's amazing. This episode was written researched, produced, and performed by me, Nicole Hill. Thank you eternally to Tressie McMillan Cottom for your wisdom and your heart. It was such an honor. It was such a privilege. Everybody, do yourself a favor right now. Follow her on all the social media, reader books, and her writings, listen to her interviews.

You will be a better person for it. Thank you to my eight team. That's my day one executive producer, Adriana Ambris, and the newest member of the team. You've actually heard him on the show before. He is known for so many incredible things. but what I love the most is his commitment to telling the stories of regular black people everywhere, all throughout time. He's been a tremendous champion of this podcast and of me. I am so thrilled to welcome our newest executive producer, Jason Reynolds.

Thank you to Davy Sumner for mixing and mastering and scouring music databases for gospel piano music. It's harder than it should be, but I appreciate you making it happen. Thank you to Martina Abraham Zulunga for story editing and Asselika Smith for show art. A very special thank you to Chiore. Iy Ayansen for research production and voice talent and for organizing this taping of our ancestors Ramesi at the ICA at VCU. Thank you to the entire team there for handling the logistics so beautifully. Thank you, Lisa Woolfork, for managing the slideshowers. Your timing was impeccable. Thank you to Jim Ambushki for fact-checking. A very special thank you to my guide through all this history,

Canada's own Graham Nickerson, Black Loyalist Scholar, and Public Historian. We are a completely independent show. If you would like to support us, you can join the household at our ancestorswemessi.com and get access to bonus and behind the scenes content and support the future of the show. To learn more about us, you can visit our ancestors were messy.com before I go. I'll just say this. I'm a storyteller by training. I'm a history curator in part because of quotes like this one from Ben Oakry. Stories can conquer fear, you know.

They can make the heart bigger. Happy 250th y'all.