Oversharing - Am I Losing My Friend To Her Baby?

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

This week starts with an audience response to Naomi and Jordana’s previous conversation about customer service, including some practical tips for how to make sure the interaction goes smoothly. Then they dive into the difficult topic of trying to maintain a meaningful relationship with a friend when they begin to have kids (and you don’t). The Overshare email of the week comes from a listener who feels left behind by a friend who recently had her first baby. Is it okay to feel resentful of the change? Then a listener sends in a challenging Betchicist question: should you call out a friend who is the “other woman” in a relationship, especially if you’ve been cheated on in the past. To close the show, they play a round of Triggered about backhanded compliments and feeling drained after work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your position or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to the Oversharing podcast. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. So great to be back with you.

Again, it's been so cool to see everyone sort of like as this podcast has gotten into its groove. I think at the time where we're calling, there's two episodes out. And the response has just really been incredible. We have so many emails. It's very hard to choose. Yeah, I love getting the real actual. In the beginning, it was tough because we didn't have real listeners. Now that we have everybody's stuff to go through, I'm really excited. I love hearing the feedback and just hearing what's going on with our actual listeners so we could tailor the topics to what is going on for you guys. I know. And there's so many different types of emails. So that's

really, really cool. And I mean, since we've aired the episode where I was complaining about my customer experience, I think it was with Chad. Was it with Jet Blue or my moving company? It was my moving company. I think it was a little bit of both, actually. You had two. You had two on one day, which is why I think we needed to have a little impromptu session that morning. Yeah. And we put out like a call to action from those on the other end, the customer service reps. And we got like a bunch of emails from people. It's funny. Like I feel like, those people really came out of the woodwork. What did they like to say?

They had a lot of thoughts. So I mean, we probably got like 10 between 10 and 15 emails and I got a few DMs from people who are in customer service. And it was actually really nice. I actually don't know anyone who works in customer service. So it was interesting to me to hear like the other side of it. And they all kind of said a similar thing. And we have one in our triggered section later today.

But we had it. I just thought it would be great to just read. a little response from someone who works in customer service because they all sort of had this similar sentiment to the one I'm about to read. So I'll read it. Yeah, go. Okay. Hi, obsessed with a new podcast. I work in retail for a telecommunications company. I routinely assist customers in person and also act as a mediator of sorts between customers and our core customer service team since not everything can be taken care of in store. Frustrating, I know. There are many days when we feel like whipping posts as we try to solve issues that neither of us caused for customers

who want to put the blame on someone. That's me. I'm customers. There are days I go home drained. What helps keep me going is the reminder that 99% of the problems that I'm solving aren't ones that I've caused. Sometimes this has to be communicated to the customer if they're rude. By attempting to solve the issue, I can do no harm, only good. Now, the 1% usually I know what went wrong and know exactly how to tell the phone rep what happened and they get it fixed right away. Either way, I don't take a customer's frustrations personally. Working in customer service along with motherhood has gotten me to a place where I don't take shit personally anymore. Keys to success when working with customer service in person or over the phone. Be prepared to prove that you are who you are,

ID security panic account number, social security number, fraudulent activities on the rise. Our paychecks are on the line if we don't verify you before delving into the problem solving aspect. To me, That means that, like, people get really mad at them for asking for, like, their social security number or, like, to repeat their address one more time or something. Yeah. I've been there, too, where it's like, I wasn't prepared to talk about, I don't have all this information. I just want you to solve my problem. But yeah. Okay. Good tip. Just do it. It'll make everything go more smoothly. Especially if you know you're calling, like, an actually registered number that is not like some. Right. 100%. Yeah. Don't give your social security number if someone calls you and asks you for it. But if you call it. But if you call it. them, I think you can give it. Right. And then she said, kiss, keep it short and sweet. Tell the rep the problem and what you need. Don't tell the entire novel of what happened. The shorter the explanation,

the faster. The interaction will go. The less frustrated everyone feels. If we need more details, we will ask. I just had a great idea on that because I think what happens is everyone is kind of looking for like a little therapy session there from the customer. Like they want to feel validated by the customer service rep. They want to tell the whole story. They don't want, they want to just fix your problem. But you kind of want to like vent all your feelings and frustrations. So while you're waiting, they should just let you have a recording space where you can just let it all out. And then when the customer service rep comes on, you can get to the kiss. Keep it short and sweet part so they can actually help you. It's like a like a recording journal where you can just vent out all your feelings.

But to me, that wouldn't really work because I need so I need like a target for my rage. Do you know what I mean? I can't just scream. If I want to scream into the void, I'll just like tell my husband all, like be like how, you know what I mean? How messed up is it that they're doing this? So I'm, you know,

I'm never, and then I say all my outrageous threats that I never follow through on, like to him. Well, what if they said you're talking to Erica, your customer service representative? And they just gave you a virtual target for your rage.

Do you think that would help? I think I would need someone to like answer me to, to validate like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. It only works if I, like, infect the poison from how I'm feeling onto someone else. That is so true. Maybe it could be like a robot that sounds a lot like a human and that would make me feel better.

Yeah, all right. We'll work on that. And then they said, just be nice. We are more than willing to go above and beyond for you if you're using manners. Thanks for reading. Can't wait for more of this awesome podcast sincerely doing the best I can, betch. So, yeah, we get a lot of those. Some people were like, you know what I mean?

like that, again, but that was the overrunning theme is that if you're nice, they're more likely to be able to help you or to want to help you, which I'm usually nice until they say no. Right. And then I am no longer nice. Yeah. Because I'm like, okay, the nice part didn't work. Now I have to like threaten a lawsuit or something. Right.

Unless they're like the third person that you're talking to, then you might start off not so nice. Right. Because you've been nice twice already, not realizing. This is a brand new person that hasn't caused this. From the other end, I like what she says, because I have a lot of people with work issues with this type of thing where she says, I remind myself that the problems I'm solving aren't ones that I've caused. I remember I had a patient who was struggling a lot with work and feeling like she was

just overwhelmed and couldn't get anything right. And she would just say, I'm leaving this better than I found it. And that was like her mantra of how she could move along and not take all this stuff. So personally, so I like that for her. And I understand why it would be like a very stressful job or it's like you become very drained. And we'll get to that later and triggered because we have one that's kind of related to that too. But it also kind of, you know what I mean?

Like it is not, unfortunately, although these people don't aren't the ones who are causing the problems. They are the, your only link to the company. So it's like you can't, if you could yell at the CEO, you would do that. But they don't really like give you that number on the. page. Right. Right. So it's kind, it is kind of a tough job to have where it's like you have to be, you're the only representative that that person has access to. So sort of like, where else are we supposed to take our intense feelings about an issue with your company than the person,

the only person you give us access to? Right. No, I hear that. I just, I, like she said, when you're not, it's almost like you just have to put more positive energy into the world and then positive will come out. So I think if you have to vent, maybe the great idea is to just vent before you get on the phone and then get on the phone and try to be as kind as possible, realizing that. And she said, did she say that? Well, she's just saying, like, she didn't cause this issue. So maybe even just acknowledging that. Like, yeah, I know that, you know, you didn't create this problem. I really appreciate your help in fixing it. Like, just giving them a little bit of a positive injection might help them and also help you because then they're going to be nicer to you

and do more to help you. That's true. I think that's the way to go. Someone suggested saying something like, I know you don't get paid enough to deal with this, which seems a little condescending. Well, yeah, I guess because you don't know how much they're getting paid. Right.

Or plus, like, I know you're poor. So, like, I'll, you know what I mean? I'm not going to, like, berate you. But I think your way is probably a little bit, like, sort of a version of that where you're like, I know that this isn't your fault. Right. Yeah. They're the ones fixing all the problems.

You know, so they didn't, they didn't create it. But some acknowledgement, because that is a human. That's the hard part is realizing that almost if it was a video call, I bet people would be much nicer than like a regular phone call without a face on the other end. Oh yeah. I once did like a customer service thing where I was like, you know, like the little widget that's on the computer that you can like type to. And that's when you're the meanest. You know what I think they do to make it people nicer?

They give the widget a name. So like if they say like it's probably just some person that, you know, whatever is not going to give out their real name perhaps. But they're like, okay, this is Marian. She's going to be your assistant. You're like, okay, Marian is a person. She probably has like a mother and a father and, you know, and then it makes you. But it doesn't work. You said your widget.

Yeah. Yeah. The meanness I would say probably like the how angry I would get would probably start with. I'd be the meanest on like a chat, a customer service chat, slightly. less mean on the phone. And if I saw someone in person, I think I would feel very, like you said, I would feel like pretty bad about yelling at them. Although you do see people in stores yelling at people in, then they're like face to face. For sure. I mean, it probably helps a little bit to have a face, but just I think the more you can each just kind of realize that nobody's trying to fight and you

don't want to, it's not their fault, then everyone just is nice and does the best that they can. But yeah, you leave the call, like what you had with your jet blue thing or whatever it was, where they were just basically like, nope, sorry, there's nothing we can do. You should have called, you should have waited on hold for two hours. Yeah. Then I can see. There's not, you know, it's not their fault, but I guess that is their job is to have to cover for their company doing the wrong thing. Or they're not allowed. And then you're kind of like, oh, okay, how can I like escalate this? And then it's like, oh, I'm going to sue, but it's like, what are you going to sue over like, a $200 flight.

Like no one, and then you're kind of like, I sound stupid even when you're saying. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Well,

I guess it's take every, every situation is unique, but I agree. Like if both, if both the rep and you can sort of like have empathy for each other's situation. Yes. Um,

it probably goes a lot further. And if they could be a little, I mean, on their end, right? So I'm really happy that, that some people are writing back telling us what's going on on their end. Maybe.

if they could be a little bit more genuine when they're like, oh, I'm really sorry that that happened. Let me see what I can do versus like, oh, wow, really? That sounds so frustrating. Let me see if I can help. If they gave a little bit more of like a genuine, oh, that sounds pretty, you know, awful that you had to do that. I could see why, you know, I guess they're being recorded. They don't want to give too much, but. Yeah, that's the other thing, I guess.

People are, it's not like they can like sneak you a thing under the table if they're being recorded. Right. Right. But just a little bit more genuine, just a little bit in the tone even might go a long way versus, you know, when you get someone and they're like, okay, sorry, we're very sorry for your inconvenience. I will look into that. It's like, no, you're not really that sorry for my inconvenience. You don't sound that sorry. But if they were like, oh, wow. That's, right. Exactly. So maybe on their end, if you could tweak and be a little bit more genuine in your validation, that might help. which I can imagine is hard to do if one, it's like your 20th call of the day. And two, if like the person's screaming at you, you probably don't feel.

And that's kind of true. It's funny because it really all relates back to every interpersonal issue where it's like, if anyone, even if they're your friend or your husband or your sibling is screaming at you, you're much less likely to sort of like come back with empathy and much more likely to be like, not my problem. I'm going to like just try to leave the call as soon as I can. Yes, calm bodies. Calm bodies create much better communication. So even for the customer reps to just take a few deep breaths in between calls, if you have a chance, you know, before you just rush to the

next one, like breathe, calm your body, calm your mind. And for the people that are calling to, just be better for everybody. So yeah, all right. Well, thanks for writing in. I was really excited to hear the other side. All right, George, what are we talking about in today's overshare? Today we are talking about kids and how that affects friendships and how, you know, I think the expectations around having your own kids and how you think your friends should react and just like such a loaded thing. There's a lot of different, I feel like, issues that arise, especially among friendships when you have certain people with kids and certain people without kids and whether or not those people want them or not. So we're getting into that. Yeah. I mean, I, it's funny,

I've had a lot. I've had a few thoughts about this just in terms. I mean, I have three kids, just my background. So I've been through, and my oldest is 10. So I've been doing this for a decade. And I can see it from all sides. I think it's not just friendships. It's like even family relationships with family members that have kids versus

family members that don't. There's like this interesting split. And I was just reading this article about it. There's like a very kid-centric culture. where people that have kids, I think, are kind of isolated in this kid-centric world. And then it's like that, it's either that or it feels like it's this freedom of the rest of the world where you can like go to bars and go to concerts and do things and just kind of live your life. And I think what came to me, I had this moment.

This was probably, I don't know, five years ago. And I had some pictures printed up like of my kids, like, you know, actual paper print. of a photograph. Like in a frame? No, just like a stack that I had printed from one of those websites where you could print like all the pictures off your phone. Okay. And I was going through the pictures and they're like, there were a bunch that just like

weren't that good. And I went to like throw them in the garbage. And then it almost felt like, how can I throw this picture of this beautiful, like perfect little being in the garbage? Like it felt almost like sacrilegious. And then I was like, what is wrong with me? This is not a God. this is just a child.

But I had that moment and it really made me think about why people are so, there's like such two separate cultures between people that have kids and then everybody else. Because I feel like there's a thing where kids are just treated as almost like these little godly creatures that you have to dedicate every single moment of your thought process and your life to them. And obviously, if that's the case, it's going to really. affect your ability to connect and have, you know, other relationships with people that are not

worshipping the same God that you're worshipping, basically. Right. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, it's totally true. And I think that, I mean, I'm in a, I don't have kids at the moment. And I'm in a phase of life where, like, that's the big divide in the friendships that you have. It's like, there's people with kids. And then, and they have their own chats and they have their own, like, you know what I mean? Like culture around the kids. And then, their own language in a lot of ways. Like I don't even, I don't know what the products that they're talking to each other about or like the,

there's like a whole, there's a whole world, especially like conception and all that. Like even, even fertility, there's like a whole language around that. And then there's people, you know,

on the other end. And it just kind of feels like those people, me, like they don't get it. And you don't. Like, you know what I mean? I have a lot of friends with like new kids and they have a whole different

life than they did when they were like. me a year, a year ago, you know what I mean, six months ago, a year ago, whatever it was. And it's just a whole, I mean, I don't know if I haven't done the other end, so I don't fully know, but it seems like it's just like an entirely new set of priorities, an entirely new life, an entirely new schedule. Like, and I think it can cause a rift because it's just like you don't, a friend is usually, for me anyway, it's like someone who kind of like gets you and understands like you're for me at least my friends have always been sort of in the same place in life as me and they kind of understand like the ins and outs of what you're going through where

they can relate to you and then it becomes and I can imagine this almost more for for me to them than for them to me is like I don't understand what they're going through at all right I don't know what it's like to to have a new baby and so yeah I'm probably not the person you have a few friends I'm probably not the friend that you will or maybe even should call when you're like, this is overwhelming. I'm really stressed. And here's all the changes that I'm going through because I don't get it. I don't know what the best.

I don't know what to say to make that situation better. I mean, I can relate to feeling overwhelmed, I guess. But it just seems like. And I think that a lot of the times those friendships can feel a little distant for a bit. Right. But I'm also kind of like there doesn't, I don't know if there's anything wrong with that. Like maybe it's kind of like every, you know, every friendship has a time and a place and maybe there's like, this is a moment in time where you aren't as close.

Maybe you'll be close again in a little bit. And to me, that's okay. So some people that doesn't feel, I think it feels a lot more dire. Right. If that makes sense. Yeah. But although if you never have kids, are you never going to be able to have that friendship again, you know?

So like that's. Right. I think there's something to be said, and I'm not, you know, I don't know how you would go about this, but there's something to be said for like creating balance where like, again, the idea of like worshiping your kids and that has to be everything that you're thinking about every second, it makes it so like, okay, I don't really need to call this kidless friend because most of what I think about most of the time is how to be the best possible parent and how to enrich my children and how to, you know, deal with X, Y, or Z about parenting.

it might, you know, if you notice that that's happening, it might be an opportunity to check your balance. Yeah. I think it's more, and maybe it's because I'm like fully in this zone of like, and you're, I'm around a lot of people who are like in their first three months, six months of being a parent,

which I mean, that's why I'm kind of like, okay, I'll give you some time. It's kind of like, I do think there's a sense of, okay, in those first three months after you have a baby,

I'm pretty sure that's like all you can focus on. Right. I would just imagine. And then, you know, you right now, you have a five-year-old as your youngest kid or four-year-old. I'm sorry, four. I knew that. I'm sorry. Just kidding. You have a, he's four and a half. Now that you have a four and a half year old, I think that you have a little more breathing room. It's not like you're like, I need to burn her to nurse him every two hours

and change his diaper. Like you can have, you're working. You can have like, you can go out to dinner. Like there's a sense of you have your life or your routine figured out. And maybe you have more time to connect on those friendships

that you didn't in literally the immediacy after. And I just happened to be in a phase where that happens all the time. But I've had people who have been upset with me for not, you know, not checking in enough for not being as proactive, like, in terms of maintaining a friendship when they've had a kid. Okay. I've had that, I would say a couple times.

And, I mean, I get that. I'm looking back. Do you feel like you're doing the whole thing? Like, I think you said once, like, people were avoiding you when you were on your honeymoon. Like, I don't want to disturb her on her honeymoon. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of assume that's totally it, I think, in some senses where I'm like, okay, they just had a baby. The baby's healthy. So I don't feel the need to like, from everything I've heard the baby's healthy. The baby's doing okay. So I'm in my mind. I'm like, okay, let them be in their like newborn cocoon. And I'm not going to like bother them by like being like what's up and how are you doing and like making small talk when they're very busy and they're very like stressed. And then like if they need help, obviously if someone called me, I would be like happy. to give a listening year or like if they said they were struggling, I would obviously be there. But I think in my mind, especially in the beginning when my friends started to have kids,

I was like, okay, like let them go off and do their thing. And then when they feel like settled, we can like chat and hang out. And like, I don't think a lot of people like that. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, look, again, it's this communication thing where it's almost like you're on your honeymoon. You're saying you're like, I'm kind of bored. I wish someone would, you know, text me while I'm sitting on the beach here.

I could have like, you know, something to do. It's probably the same thing. But I get that, you know, it's almost like you said. If you don't relate, then you don't know what you would want in that situation in terms of, yeah, maybe it might be nice while you're nursing to like text with your friend and talk about it. And maybe that would bring you into the fold a little bit more, you know, like, right, where they could just be telling you about their daily, you know, oh my gosh. this baby's on my boob for the seventh time in the last like three hours. I can't,

you know, whatever. They might be able to tell you something where then you kind of feel like you're in their world a little bit and that might ease the disconnect in some regards. Like maybe that initial space kind of sets the tone for like you're, now we're on different pages, you know. Right. And that's very possible. And I think what I've learned from having undergone that a couple times is like it doesn't hurt to check in proactively. And you can make a little thing. Like if you're super busy, no, don't even worry about responding to this. Or like if you're overwhelmed, like, I'm here. You don't have to, you know, text me when you can. Right. Right. It might be a good thing. And then I think the other side of it is also like, okay, your life just changed so much. Right.

And maybe your personality in some way has changed a little bit too. Maybe you're like, have a whole, maybe you're slightly different person than you were before you. had this kid, which I hear happens as well. But I haven't changed. Right. So I'm kind of like... Right. I don't know how to deal with the new you.

I don't know how to deal with the new you. I haven't changed. And if you... And I've always also been someone who's like not a big texter, let's say, right? I don't like text a ton of people. I'm not like texting. I like seeing people in person, but obviously that's harder for someone like that. But it's kind of like, okay, how much do I have to change to accommodate the new.

new you versus you sort of having to innately understand who I am and maybe I'm not the friend who's going to be the one who's super proactively reaching out. Right. Well, there's also, at least to the next question of like when there's a new baby, what about the in-person hangouts? You know, like I think sometimes people, and especially because of COVID and like, you know, germs and you don't really want as many people perhaps around your baby and then you're not you're not melding the two worlds like you know i was saying earlier there's kind of like this kid world where you're like going to the playground and going to like the kid friendly parade and doing all the kid stuff and then there's like the adult world so it's either like perpetuates this feeling of like you coming over

and just hanging out with me and my baby and like sitting here while i'm living my regular life somehow doesn't like I think a lot of times it ends up being like okay we're I'm either getting a babysitter or my I'm leaving the baby at home and we're going to go pretend that we are exactly the same as we were before right this the baby or I'm going to be isolated in this house doing my family thing so maybe there's something to be said for trying to kind of um meld the two worlds a bit more that's a great point as well where it's like again like I think that's kind of how it winds up becoming. It's like when they're when they're ready to like kind of like go out and pretend that they're like the same person they were or like or or it's more like be in

that role. Right. Then you're the one who's maybe there and more in that capacity. But I mean it's to me it's kind of like it doesn't necessarily feel like a problem so much as something that just is. And you just wade it out and and you'll come back to where you. Yeah. So let me ask you a question. When you have these new friends that sort of feel like. there have been overtaken by motherhood in the beginning. Does that make you feel like I want to get in this? Like I want to do this and be in that group with them? Or does it make you feel like, whoa, this is a lot.

I don't know that I want to give up everything for this. I think it's a little bit of both, but it's more the I'd want to get in there with them kind of thing because it's also, I think there's the sense of one, the more people do it. It's one friend, it's like, okay, that's her thing. But when it's like most of your friends, then it's like that's what, no one, there's not that many people to do the non, non-motherhood things one.

Right. And then like that pool becomes less and less. And then there's also the sense of, okay, like when I do that, I want to be doing it with these other people. I don't want them to be done. And then I'm doing it and I'm alone. And like everyone's already been there, done that. Like I think part of, especially for women,

And part of this whole thing is like we're doing it together. We're going walks for walks with the babies together. We're like experiencing the same things. And that creates a lot of bonding. And you see that among a lot of new moms. I feel like no one is trying to reach out to people in the same position as them as new moms or just like want someone who's going through the exact same thing that they can text about, you know, what does it mean when the baby is doing this or that? And like, that's a big resource for people who are going through it together. And I don't want to do that by myself, like that, you know.

Yeah, totally. Well, look, I mean, I think if they, if they've already done it, then they're going to be there and be able to, you know, be there for you, whether their kid is three when yours is born or their kid is five when yours is born. They've been through it. They could probably really still relate to a lot of the stuff that you'd be going through. But I do think there's something. I mean, if we're going to, you know, talk about what can we do about this break and then maybe

we can get to the email. Get to email, yeah. Just like, you could go for a walk with her baby and her stroller and you can just walk without your baby in your stroller and like still kind of do those things. Like I think there's something about melding the two worlds that might make this better. And I do that. And I also like, I'm into that and I do do that as well. I just think it's like.

Oh, that's nice. That's good. I don't think I ever really did that with, you know, when I was going through that and I had friends that had kids and I didn't. I don't remember ever walking alongside somebody else with their baby in this trailer, but that's great. Thanks. You're such a good friend. It's time for today's overshare email of the week presented by BetterHelp. Relationships take work, especially the most important one you can have in your life, your relationship with yourself. That's where BetterHelp comes in. Check out BetterHelp and get matched with a licensed therapist today. All right,

Joy, do you want to read today's email? Yes. Okay. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I've enjoyed your first few episodes, and when I heard you asking for interpersonal relationship questions, my current situation came right to mind. I'm in my early 30s in one of the few remaining single females in my friend groups. I'm hoping to one day find a husband slash life partner, and although I've always pictured my life with kids growing up, the older I get, the less I picture that for myself. So unsure at this point whether I want kids one day. While I have some woes me moments thinking about missing out on getting married and having kids on the same timeline as my friends, I'm generally very happy with my life and feel sincere

happiness for most of my friends going through these experiences. I say most because one friend in particular seems to be getting under my skin lately. And I can't tell if it's their behavior is causing this. My insecurities or maybe a combination of both. In my experience, many of my friends who have kids will disappear for a few months while they adjust to their new mom and change priorities. But they still find time to check in and we make time to see each other. However, one of my closest friends and former roommates had a baby about six months ago and things seems to be changing more than I'm used to. Her world seems completely consumed by the baby and I rarely hear from her. Early on, I would reach out to check in, but eventually got tired of being the only one to initiate

a conversation only to ask her questions about her life and not get any questions in return. The last two times I can recall hearing from her first was when she needed something to get out of the house and needing a babysitter for a few hours. When I do see her, our conversations revolve around her baby. In the rare moments when she asks about me, I feel like pity questions. How's the single life? Or unintended demeaning comments. I would never now that I'm a mom.

Right. That's annoying. I've tried to keep my feelings private because I don't want to gossip about a close friend, but I know at least one friend who is struggling with this also. This friend has said she's not totally surprised because the friend who just had the baby has always been self-involved. Her words, but I have to agree it's not her best quality. this friend was also going through a tough family situation and it hurt that the friend who had the baby had no clue what was going on because she doesn't take the time to check it anymore. I'm beginning to notice feeling resentful, not because I don't want to hear about the baby, but because it's not the only thing I want to hear about. While I don't think this resentment is solely driven by jealousy since I still feel genuine happiness for my other friends, I also recognize there could be some underlying feelings I don't recognize or playing into this. So is it me? Is it her or is it a combination of us both? Am I completely?

naive to what she is going through, not having gone through it myself. And should I be more empathetic? Could I be feeling more hurt by this friend because we were so close? And perhaps I'm feeling a bigger loss with her. Do I bring this up somehow or accept this as normal life change and recognize friendships change over time? Looking forward to your thoughts, childless, resentful batch. All right. Tell us how you really feel. Yeah. You know, again, I think, as I usually come back to, I think this is a conversation. This is begging for some communication. But I think, I mean, it does sound like if she's getting along well and feeling genuine happiness for the rest of her friends, this friend might just be maybe even in some ways,

like suffering a little bit, even if it's not suffering like your usual definition of suffering, but just like in like a ton, like having tunnel vision about her life and her baby where she's having a hard time, you know, stepping out and seeing that there's more world out there. So I'm sure she's not probably intending to do this. But sometimes it just does take, you know, somebody bringing it up or bringing it to your attention to make you realize that. Because like you said, it is very overwhelming. And even starting off, if you are breastfeeding, it's like sets this tone that like every minute of every day you are at this baby's back and call. So it sometimes is hard to take a breath and step out of that and realize that there's

other friendships happening. But I think with a little bit of just awareness and focus and realizing that she needs a little balance, hopefully she can put some energy into the friendship. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. I think I mean, it seems like her friend is not, I totally would understand the idea of like I just had a kid and I'm completely immersed in that. And maybe it makes me a little bit limited to see other people's what they're good. It sounds like her friend is just like lacking a little bit of like a self-awareness or like is a little bit more just like involved in her own feelings and thoughts. Like I agree with you. It doesn't sound like she's trying to make her feel bad.

But maybe like someone else, maybe she has her other friends feel the same way. But they are a little bit more of the like wherewithal to be like, okay, this person isn't in this world at all. And so I'm going to talk less about this. I'm going to talk more about my baby with other people who have a baby, and I'm going to talk more about what this other person might find interesting. So to me, it almost just like indicates maybe a lack of awareness of the other person. Right. And look, you know, you almost don't want to fake it.

Like, let me bring up a topic that I think would be interesting, but just asking her some questions about her own life and then spending some time talking about that. Because I think I can remember having that feeling where it's like, okay, really, if you're staying, especially if she's like staying at home and just taking care of, she's a stay at home mom and it's just this baby, she might really not have that much else on her mind. So it's hard. I remember kind of feeling like, what can I bring up that's going to be interesting to this person aside from my kids?

Because I, you know, I had some awareness of that at the time. You must have done that around me. I don't remember. Did you ever feel like it was just, you could be honest, like just all. baby all kids all the time? No, actually. I mean, like, it's funny. It has been a bit since you were in that phase. But I remember when my friends were getting a little upset with me about not reaching out enough for doing that. I was kind of like, I don't think I ever asked my sister how she was doing. Sorry about that. Right. I never felt like, I mean, obviously it was a lot younger than you.

So I'm sure, again, for you, like, for you and me, let's say, let's bring that up. Because that's a, that's sort of of like a almost exaggerated example of this because I'm in a, I'm in a 10 years younger. So I'm in a very different, when you were having kids, I was probably like graduating college. Right. Or something like that or like in very different place in life. And so I'm sure with that, like you weren't expecting me to be the one that you were going to like call to talk about what was going on with your kids. Totally. Yep.

And it probably did create a bit of a distance or a discontest. connect more even like I even remember just speaking of a different kind of at my bachelorette party you guys were like probably in not even 21 maybe I don't know it was like 19 yeah right so it's like my bachelor at party but you're not really legally able to drink and I remember even feeling at that point like there's kind of a little block here like you're so much in a different phase like I was like in like bachelor at party mode and you were more in um Like, I guess you were, I'm sure, when you were 19, you were drinking. But, like, you know, it just, there's like a little bit of a distance.

So I think that it does create a little bit of a disconnect. And I'm sure I have a feeling that, you know, once you have kids, if that's what's in the cards for you, it's probably going to create a closeness because I have been through it. And so I think there's part of it that's just natural that if you're in the same stage of life, that you're going to feel a little bit closer to one another. Right. So then I guess the question is, and I think this could go for any varying stages of life. There's friends who are getting married and other friends are still single.

There's friends who are married but not have kids and other friends of kids. And I think it's always going to be, there's going to be a little bit of that. But I do think that new motherhood is a very unique time specifically because I do think it's like particularly. And again, I don't know any one besides you with like older kids, but from what I observe about you is that you do get a little bit more room for other things once you're over that initial phase of like, I just need to be tending to this child every two hours. And so part of me does feel like, okay, like maybe you can both kind of like ride that out a little bit.

Ride the wave and just wait for it to settle. Yeah. And I think there's in the very beginning, there's like hormonal stuff too where you're like literally your personality is different because you're maybe a little anxious or a little depressed or a little, you know, you're really going through some. physiological changes that can make things just feel very different. Totally. And do we need to force closeness at all times?

Like can't we just accept that maybe like at this exact phase, maybe it's like this for this woman six months or like even a year or like in that phase, maybe this isn't the year that you're closest. Like I do believe all relationships, not just romantic relationships, do have like moments where you're feeling more connected in closeness and close. where you're feeling maybe a little bit like on a different page. And I do think there's something to be said for making an effort to close the gap. But I also think that some level of that is like okay and normal and doesn't necessarily have to indicate that anyone is a bad friend.

Totally. I agree with that. I don't think there's anyone who's to blame here. But I do think that just some communication, especially because it's six months. It's not, I guess like months, two months, three months, you know, it's the first three months, I think, are like the most intense where you're kind of like, you know, I would reach out like you said and just be like, hey, I'm sure you're crazy, but I'm here, you know, I don't feel free to answer or not, you know, whatever. That could be like the first three months. But then I think by six months, if it's still feeling like there's not a lot of closeness there, I agree with you. And maybe the end result is I'm just overwhelmed with this or like, thank you for reaching out, but I really, you know, whatever it is, I do think the communication

can't hurt to say, I miss you, whatever, not in like a guilty, I miss you, like, what, you know, you're not being a good friend kind of thing, but maybe even just an offer to hang out like with the kids. Like I always, I think it's a great idea because sometimes it feels like, okay, if we're going to hang out, I have to ask my husband, get a babysitter, rearrange so that we can like hang out in the way that we're accustomed to hanging out. I think there's something to be said for like hanging out together with the kids. But I guess then that begs the question and maybe you can answer this. Does it make you uncomfortable to be like always hanging out with the kids around?

Like do you prefer to see your friends with kids without the kids or are you just as cool to be like, come over and I'm just going to do my parenting thing and you can just kind of be there with me for it? I'm really usually down to do either or both to some extent. But I think what I find for myself is that the parents that I'm around want to see me without their kids because they want to lean into the aspect of themselves that they want to go out and have a bunch of a few drinks and like talk about like stuff that doesn't have to do with their kids. And this is like they see me as like the break from that.

Right. Right. And you're okay with that. Yeah. which is fun for me. That's exactly how he was staying up before. But I would also be okay with, I also have done situations where I've gone over there and, you know, either like I see the kid and then the kid goes to sleep and then we like hang out

in their apartment or they're there. But I don't think they're like, I don't think I'm the one that they're like, let's hang out with the kids. I think that they prefer to do that with the other moms because like it just feels more natural. But I've done it before too and I think it's fine. I'm usually down for whatever, especially, it's kind of weird, too, because it's like, especially when you're the one without kids, it's like, I have a super flexible schedule. So, yeah, I mean, I think, again, as the person in this person's closer to this person's

situation, and I think maybe I'm a little, I probably understand it less than her, because to her, she's kind of like, I don't even, she's sort of, and I think this is another part that we haven't really touched on about the emailer, is that she's also dealing with her own internal struggle of like, is this something I want? Right. Whereas I'm like, I do know this is something I want. I'm just not there yet. So I don't get like triggered quote unquote by like seeing other people in that scenario.

I don't feel like absurdly jealous or I don't feel like absurdly like I know it's something that feels in the cards for me relatively soon. So to me it almost feels like a peek into a different window of like what's to come. Right. And so it's more than I think having the issue with me as just someone who's maybe on a friendship line of not keeping in touch as much. But I think for this person, there's an added feeling of irritation about it because she's like, and I think she has to acknowledge that when she, when she asks us, she's like,

is this something about my own feelings or says it's about her. And I do think that probably is part of it where she's like. Right. Am I never going to be, is this never going to come back because this is not the life that I want? I think that's part of the fear. Right. And is this almost like the, my looking at like what my life could be like, if. I chose that path.

And is her obsession with this sort of in, I think that might be something which she didn't say, but I kind of inferred as like, is her obsession with this baby and this child sort of, a comment on my potential decision to have a childless life. Right. Oh, I wonder if you're saying,

if she and the friend have had that conversation? I don't even think they've necessarily, they've had the conversation, but I think she could be inferring it. Like, because the fact that she relates everything back to the baby or she only talks to the baby, or she says things like,

what's it like being single out there? Like it seems she's probably projecting her feelings of her friend judging her or like thinking her life is better than hers because she's, you know, she has kids and she's settled and her friends. How's the single life over there? Or like as a mom, I would never,

she probably, and I don't know if her friend is actually judging her or if she's just kind of like projecting potentially maybe an insecurity about maybe this, she'll never have those things. And like, is that worse or better than what she is? And maybe if she's feeling like, oh, I might be really, there's a part of me that would be upset. If I didn't have this, maybe she feels like her friend is sort of speaking to that part of her.

Right. That's a great point. I think you're right. I think there's definitely something there in terms of maybe feeling, you know, not judge because I don't think she's doing it on purpose, but it's bringing up her own stuff about where she wants to go with her life and like what is my value and where, what direction am I going? in if I'm choosing not to be obsessed with this, you know, new life. And that really comes back to the conversation about like how I just think culturally, you know, I was thinking about this when I read this email. There's like this big cultural push towards the most important things that you can do

in your life are get married and have children. You know, there's like baby showers and bridal showers and people traveling for weddings. Right. And there's no like promotion showers. There's no, I pass the bar shower. There's no, I got a dog shower. You know, these are all like big life commitments and things that you're doing that are really important to you that have nothing to do with marriage and family.

So I do think that there's like a big cultural, it's almost like this everything is, it's like a big stream, like a big swarming mob push to the altar and to have children. And that's kind of like where everyone's going. And if you're kind of like, wait, I think I'm walking the other way. Like, I want to go against the stream here, perhaps. And then what does that mean about me? And is that going to be accepted by people and how am I going to fit in in the world if I choose not to do that? Yeah, totally agree.

And I think there's like an underlying competitiveness a lot of the times among women of like who can reach those family milestones like first or like a sense of that's everyone's goal. it sort of feels like it's like the, that's the default is that it's like you assume everyone wants that anyway. So I think to me the best, like you said, either asking her to hang out or even if you want to go a step further in establishing intimacy, what I would say to her, whether like if you're hanging out or on a call or something is like share that with her. Like I'm feeling a little. And I think that's really what makes you close to sharing your vulnerabilities.

You could say like, yeah, maybe like I've been maybe if she is single. and she's having her, I've been having kind of a hard time with it. And sometimes, like, when I see you with this baby, like, it kind of makes me think that, you know, I'm unsure about what I want. And whatever the feeling is, I'm not going to say what her feeling is about it. But it kind of brings out an anxiety in me about never having that and not even being sure if I want it. But like, and she can talk that through with her.

Like, if she's a friend, the whole point of having a friend is that you can talk through whatever you have going on your head with them. I love that. I think you were the therapist on this one. I think you did a really good job with that. I love that. I love both of those. One, that it's her insecurity and two, that it is begging some vulnerability on the part of the listener

that she could just, you know, first of all, have the self-awareness to realize, like, what perhaps is this? And then what are you really talking about with your friend? Maybe it is a little fake right now because she has a baby. And you just be like, oh, my God, that's so cute. Oh, my gosh, that's so cute. Yay, what did she eat today? And you're like, that's not what you really want to care. Right.

Right. But what you really want to talk about is like how all her and all the rest of your friends have. And I think that's something that I think a lot of listeners could probably benefit from hearing where like if you're feeling on the outside for some reason, whether it's all of your friends have boyfriends and I don't have a boyfriend or all of your friends are getting engaged and I'm not getting engaged or all your friends are buying a house and we're not ready. whatever it is, like sometimes just bringing up that elephant in the room and having that conversation of like, I'm so happy for you. And I really, you know, the truth is I really want those things too. Or I'm not sure if I want those things. And here's my process as I'm experiencing our friend group and these life changes and just

coming down to the vulnerability. And it's just that one conversation on that one day, I think can create, can like be a stepping stone in your whole friendship to bring you to the next level where it's like, we can talk about this. We do not have to avoid this. And then you feel better because it's like you're not just pretending like you don't care about something or that the thing or that her talking about her kid is the thing that's irritating you. The thing they really get to know you on like an actual deeper level like what is the insecurity here. And then oftentimes when you do that, the other person will share a more real sense of what's going on with them. So maybe to you it

kind of looks like to her like she's just like obsessed with this baby and having an amazing time and doesn't care about you. But maybe that would lead her to feel comfortable sharing with you that, you know, she's been so stressed or she's been so anxious or she's had this problem with her husband or do you know what I mean, this or that thing? Because people, I think people tend to only share the good things when they don't feel a closeness because they're like, I don't know if I can trust you with this information or my feelings because I don't know how close we are.

But like when you feel a sense of intimacy with someone, that's when you really get to like a real friendship when you're like, oh, now I really understand how you're feeling. Totally. And I think there's also something like, again, about this whole like child worship thing where maybe it's like you don't want to speak out loud like that you're not happy or that the child is overwhelming or that there's something negative about this child or there's something negative about your marriage or there's almost like once you're in this thing, I'm married and I have a child.

You have to put on this front that everything's perfect because this is what I've been working for the whole time. And I love these people so much and I don't ever want to say anything bad about them and, you know, speak negatively to another person. But that sometimes is what creates the disconnect is like that inability to, you know, speak your real feelings to friendships or to friends in those situations. So yeah, that's a great point. And I think it can go across the span of everything because there's nothing that's going to disconnect you more from a friend than being fake and pretending that everything's, you know, not. whatever. I'm not saying you have to like drudge up negativity, but just not really, um, being honest about your real feelings. It's definitely going to create that disconnect. And even if she

just shares it as like, you know, I've been thinking a lot about like my own self and it's seeing everyone with these kids is making me kind of feel a certain type of way. If you don't feel like even like to find the feeling, you could just talk about like almost like you would with the therapist, you know, this is, this is what's happening with me. And this is kind of like how I'm feeling and I don't even know exactly what I feel. But like, and then if, if they're a good, if they're actually a close friend, like she said that she thought they were, that conversation should feel like it brings you closer.

But if one person doesn't really give in that conversation, then maybe you're not as close as you thought you were. Yep. And then it's like I always say with dating. Like, be you, be vulnerable. And if that's not what that person's looking for, then they're not the match and better to find out sooner than later. If like your real feelings are too much.

much for someone, then that's it. Then they're not going to be, you know, then maybe you're not as close to you know, right, exactly. And as you get older and you only have room in your life for so many people, it's a good way to kind of say, okay, if I can't be myself here, this is just going to be wasted energy. Great point. I love that. I think we helped her.

Yeah, I hope so. That's it for today's overshare presented by BetterHelp. Better Help online therapy wants to remind you that you matter just as much as everyone else does, and therapy is a great way to make sure you show up for yourself. BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist, so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. Give it a try and see why over 2 million people have used BetterHelp online therapy. Oversharing listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash overshare. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P-L-L-C-O-Sash.

Let's do the Betchesist, which is, again, our ethical email of the week. We're going to to tell you what the right ethical move is because, you know, we know all. And if you guys have either an email or an ethical question or something that you're triggered by, email us oversharingupetches.com, oversharingapetches.com. And we will hopefully break it down for you. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. Love the sister tag team looking forward to getting your perspective on all of life's uncomfortable situations that get thrown your way in this podcast. I'll get right to it. My best friend is sleeping with a guy who has a long term girlfriend and I have no clue how to balance being a supportive friend and also totally

disagreeing with what's happening. The guy and his girlfriend are going through a super rough patch, which my friend will often reference sort of like she's trying to justify what they're doing. She'll send me screenshots of sexual messages from the guy saying things like, oh my God, I can't believe he's saying this to me when I can clearly see in the messages that she's egging it on. I don't think the guy is going to break up with his girlfriend and I think my friend is going to end up left in the dust at some point. So far, I've been approaching it with things along the lines of, I'm not judging you, but I don't think this will make you feel good long term. But it's still going on and making me so angry with her. I've been cheated on in the past,

and it's hard to shrug this off. Is there anything I can say without coming off like I'm on a high horse? How do I keep this from getting in the way of our friendship? Thanks, the other woman's confidant. This is a tough one. Yeah. I've actually seen this. a few times with your patience, patience and just in life with, you know, people that I've met that have, you know, a friend that's going through this type of thing where it's like you can't, you can't control your friend's decisions, but also she's been cheated on. So I think this probably, I'm sure for her, begs the question of like, this friend is no better than the girl who did this to me. And she's my good, really good friend. So like, how can I, you know,

come to terms with that. So that's a tough thought. Yeah, I agree because it's like on the one hand, you're like, your friend isn't coming to you for judgment. They're coming to you. I don't even know what she's coming to her to share her life, I guess, because I mean, it sounds like the friend has justified it in her own head by saying they have issues or whatever it is. So it's kind of like, at what point in, and I think this could apply to a bunch of different things, like at what point should you insert your own judgment, even if it's not asked for, versus like blindly supporting or being loyal to your friend?

Like, what do you owe your friend in this scenario? Right. Yeah, I mean, look, I think the truth is the best way if she's going to approach it, which I don't think she would be wrong if it's bothering her, is to make it about her. You know, like, I've been cheated on in the past. This, when I hear you talking about this,

It's really upsetting to me. Obviously, I don't want to tell you what to do. And she could even say something like, I don't know what I would do if I were in your situation. And she maybe feels like she does know what she would do, but she literally hasn't been like born and lived in her life and done all the things that have led her to the point where she's making this decision. But she could phrase it in a way that comes off as really non-judgmental, but just basically saying, I don't like having these conversations. I don't, I feel uncomfortable. I got cheated. on. I'm sure if they're good friend, she probably knows that about her. Right. So you can say when X did this to me, like, it was, it was devastating for me. And so I can't help but put myself in the other

person's position. I want to support you and I want you to be happy. But it's really hard for me, like you said, like it's really hard for me to hear about this. Right. And it sounds like, you know, I think she's probably telling her just like almost in like a gossipy, like exciting way. Like look at like, look at what he's saying to me. where it sounds like she doesn't realize that the friend, the listener is taking this as more than just like a fun, exciting, like gossipy thing.

This is like making her feel really bad and making her feel really uncomfortable. So she might just need to bring that to her attention. She can do it in a non-judgmental way. But then there's the question of like, as your friendships grow and you guys go through life together, could there be something that happens that makes you feel like, I don't actually really want to be friends with. with this person anymore because of this decision that they've made.

Yeah. That's a whole other, I guess that's a whole other part of it too, where it's like, do I not respect your values? Do I not respect your choices? Do I respect you less than? And I mean,

I think this can happen with any kind of like fight. Even if, like, even if, in this situation, the friend isn't betraying her, but she's kind of betraying someone else, right? So like,

even if it didn't affect her actual friendship with her, there is a sense of like, okay, this is something I know you would do. Right. And now I've banked that in my head as like, this is one more piece of information about you that I'm now noting. Right. And if she gets a boyfriend one day and one day they, you know, happened to get to the bar before she gets there,

she's going to probably have doubts with how she might handle that situation, you know, like the two of them alone together or spending time without her. Like she probably wouldn't trust her around her boyfriend because there's, It's clearly not a boundary that she says in her life. Right. And that doesn't mean she should have no friends or that like, you know, everyone needs to abandon her or that she's an evil person.

But I do think that to think that that would have no bearing on your friendship, just the idea that you know, you know what I mean? Like what if your friend was committing like fraud or like a little crime here? You know what I mean? Your friend was like stealing stuff from like stores. Right. Right. Right. Again, it wouldn't necessarily have to do with you, but you're like, this is something they do.

I'm placing that into the bigger picture of how they see them as a person and as a friend. And like to say that it would have no effect, I think would be unrealistic. Right. And look, and there's going to be things that are more personally triggering than others. So like because she's been cheated on, this probably touches a nerve that say if she was shoplifting, it wouldn't touch the same nerve. be like, all right, whatever, like hope you don't get caught. It's not really my problem versus this is a bigger issue for me. Right. And then she might not, but I think if she just tells her how she feels,

she might not actually change. Like she probably, I assume her saying that that's not going to affect whether she's doing it or not doing it, especially just because no one, anything anyone tells you is going to stop you from doing it. You have to realize it yourself. Yes. But you could maybe have like a slightly more distant friendship with her. And she could then know, you're not the person.

to bring this to it. Yes, exactly. She'll find a different person to send the screenshots to, and she'll know that, like, you're not going to be the friend for that. And I think that's all you can do. All you can do is set your own boundaries, which basically what you're, what you've told her to do is do that is like, this is how this makes me feel. You can do whatever you want. It's your life. But I prefer to not be involved at all in it. Right. Yep. And you're right. She's not going to change. I think no matter what you say or no matter how you handle it, I wouldn't expect that she's going to cut things off with this person because she obviously must really like him or like something about this situation. And it might be more than just, I like this guy.

There might be something that makes her feel, you know, more desirable that he's willing to cheat on his girlfriend with her or whatever her underlying reasons are that are keeping her connected to this person. You're not going to change that, but you also don't have to be on the receiving end of the snapshots and, you know, the communications with him. But yeah, that's a good point. I don't think the behavior is going to change until she's ready to change it or he ends it. But you don't have to necessarily hear about it.

I think that's an okay boundary for you to set with your friend. I love you. Let's go out to dinner. Let's continue our friendship. But I just don't want to hear about this particular thing. And she could just say it's triggering for me because I've been cheated on unless she really does feel like it's changing the way she feels about this friendship. And she can't trust her. And she does not want to be close to her anymore.

That's an option too. but if she feels like, okay, I just don't want to hear about this, but let's continue on as usual. I think that's a fine boundary to set. Yeah. And I guess that's for her to figure out internally, just like asking herself that question, how much, you know what I mean? Like, what is she won in a friendship? If she's okay with like having her to an extent in her life, I agree.

Like, that's the way to look at it. And she can also just play it out and see how she feels. You know, like have the conversation, say, you know, do what you're going to do. I don't want to hear about it. and then just like be around her and see how it feels. If she feels like she can't stop thinking about it every time she's around her, she's just like, you know, imagining what's happening or feeling like it's different or she can't trust her,

then there's your answer, you know, just like live it and see if it makes things better between the two of you. And if it doesn't, then you'll have to decide from there if this is a person that, you know, is bringing joy into your life or someone that, you know, is making you feel, you know, constantly, you know, obsessing over her character and whether or not you can trust her. So I think you just have to live it, do it and see how it plays out and then take it from there. Agreed. Well, I think we solved this ethically.

Yeah, I think so too. It's a tough one though. Like that, I hear that all the time. I have a friend who's involved with a married person or a person who has a boyfriend or something like that and I don't know how to handle that. So yeah, I'm sure a lot of people undergo that. I mean, do you hear it as a therapist or mostly just like a yeah as you know just people saying you know I have a good friend I know she's doing this and I don't really know how to handle it like I don't you know I don't want to be judgey that's the thing I don't want to come off as judgmental because this is my good friend and I don't want her to feel like alone but I also really don't agree with what she's doing and don't know how to tell her right it's almost similar to the one we talked about where the she was like you know speaking not

nicely to her husband or boyfriend or whatever it was it's like I don't want to be judgey but like I really don't like this thing about you. And every time I'm around you, it's overtaking my thought process. And I can't enjoy our time together. Well, I think what you said is one thing that you said is key is like to bring it up in terms of how it makes you feel. What about you? And not like, it's wrong that you're doing this. You're a bad person.

You're a bad person. You're like, this is immoral, whatever. That's a judgment. But it makes me feel like this is you can't really argue that. That's not judgmental. And you're entitled to. your own boundaries in that case. Right. It is what it is. But yeah, I think we solve that ethical dilemma. Let's do a round of trigger. You ready? Sure. Let's do it. Okay. You want to read the first one?

Sure. A man tells you, a female, that you have a quote unquote strong personality. Context. My friend is in the military and a male in the military said this to her. I feel like many women who present themselves as confident may get a comment like this. I know I would be pretty triggered if someone, especially a man, said this to me. I would love to know your thoughts. Y'all are great. Keep up the good work. I love everything. Betches. Hmm. A man in the military says this to her. Let me think. I'd give it, I'd give it a six. I could see how that would be triggering in that context more than even like the regular context. Because the military is, I would think, male kind of dominated place where like, you would imagine

a strong personality would almost be like encouraged and I could see why it might be taken as like sort of an anti-feminist thing. Right. Like an insult. Right. You know, it's interesting because strong personality in and of itself is not a bad thing, but it's kind of come to be like a cover for your like a hard, aggressive, unyielding person, right?

That's kind of how it's. but just by itself, I know that there are a lot of people enjoy being around someone who's right if it really is self-describe themselves as that. Right. Yeah. So I think if you take the idea that it's kind of like a like a hidden insult, that it's like a, you know, they're trying to say you're a bitch without saying you're a bitch,

then it feels really bad. But maybe he really likes women that have strong personalities. I mean, you see it all the time. I see couples where there's women with what I would say are like the negative aspects of a strong personality where they're like pretty unyielding, pretty demanding, controlling all of those types of things. And they're married to someone who sort of enjoys that and feels like maybe they need a little bit of a push or they need a little bit of, you know, that kind of thing in their life. So I think in some ways it could be considered a negative thing if you're looking. if you have the association that it's negative. Yeah, I think it would depend how the person said it.

Like, if it, you know what I mean? Like, if it said, like, in a way that sounded like it was an insult or if it meant is like, it sounds like to me this person's kind of projecting that they mean that like, you know, well, if a man had a strong personality, then like he'd be, it would be good thing. But to me, because I'm a woman, I should be quiet. It sounds like what she's like sort of hearing from this. I don't know if it was said that way. If it was set in a context that made me think that way, I could see why that would be triggering, especially.

And again, I'm not in the military and I don't know that many people who are, so I don't know what the vibe is. But I can imagine that it's the kind of thing where you kind of have to figure out what it's like to be a woman in that situation can be kind of a thing where you're like, how should I be acting? should I be acting in a more masculine, traditionally masculine way? Or should I be, you know what I mean? As a woman, are they expecting me to be like quieter and more deferential? Right. So I can see how that would be, especially in that environment. In that context, yeah.

Right. Yeah. And look, I think going back to the idea of being triggered, as in most triggered situations, I always like the listener to kind of do some introspection and say like, okay, maybe you probably do have a strong personality. how do you feel about that? Like, do you like that about yourself? Are there aspects of that that you like?

Are there aspects of that maybe you would like to tone down a little bit? And I think if you can be honest with yourself and you really just are, you have a strong personality in all the good ways. Like you know what you want. You're not afraid to stand up for yourself. You, you know, feel like you have a valuable opinion to share with people. And so you share it with them or all the good things about that. If that's what you feel like is mostly.

coming off, then own it. And they probably didn't mean it in a negative way. But if you're introspective and you see, okay, maybe I'm a little bit pushy or unyielding or aggressive or rude, then they probably did mean it offensively. Yeah, I think only the listener can really answer that. Yes. She's going to be the real, the only person who's, if you are those things, he probably meant it.

I mean, look, there's a chance that he's just kind of chauvinist and doesn't like any woman that has anything to say. say. And so maybe she, you know, has a beautiful, lovely, strong personality. But yeah. And that's, again, for her to, like, take herself out of the situation, look at that, like, what is the truth here? What is the truth? Like, what does this person generally think about women or, like, me? Like, what do I infer there versus, like, what do I actually know about myself? Right. And I think that could, that's true for anything that could be seen as, like, an insult. It's not really about them. It's about you. Like, what is it?

touching in you and how do you feel about yourself? And it's funny to bring it back to like the first part of the episode where we're talking about like being a bad friend or being a good friend or like in the way that, you know, you support your friends who have kids. I remember talking to my own therapist about this and he was like, do you think you're a good friend? And then like, and like what do you think one would expect from you in this situation? What do you think personally like is something that's in your character to do in this

situation. And then sort of seeing like how those things line up really gives you your answer of like, okay, is someone mad, is someone, is this thing that someone's saying to me true? Like, what is the truth? Right. And also like, is it about their expectations? Are their expectations of you very far from like what you've shown in the past to be what one can expect from you? Right. Right. Right. You know, totally. I agree with that. Yeah. Let's do one more. Okay. And this brings us full circle back to the beginning with customer service. Hi, Jordan and Dr. Naomi, I'm a customer service rep and I had to weigh in with your customer service conversation because I'll admit I was a little triggered. Feel free to also use this for your triggered segment, L.O.L. We are. Thank you. I'm on phone calls and

live chats as a customer service rep at a tech company and it is emotionally and mentally draining when people call in just to get angry at you over things that are beyond your control all day. Not every day is like this, but the more aggressive customers that I speak to in a day, the more drained, I feel. I have to tell my boyfriend not to talk to me for like an hour after I I finish work because I just can't give any more of my energy to anyone until I fill up my own cup. I know I should be better at distancing myself from my work and not taking things personally, but it can be really tough. I would love to hear Dr. Naomi's tips on this. Anyway, love this new pod. I've been a betches fan for a while and I can't wait to see where you take this. Love a customer

service betch. Love that. I guess the trigger here is listening to a podcast where they're talking shit about customer service reps. And that is your job. That's why when we first discussed this, I knew that there were going to be a lot of people on that end. And I really do feel for them. So I'm glad that you're giving us your end of it. Because I, again, I also personally don't know a lot of people that work in customer

service. But I know there's only so much that people can take. And I can imagine that it starts to affect your personal life where she like has to, you know, just not do anything at the end of. day. I think any job where you're dealing with people with strong emotions all day and it's like an antagonistic type thing is probably really draining. But I have to say you deal with people who have a lot of feelings all day.

Maybe it's not directed at you, I guess, would be the difference. Right. But do you get drained? Yeah. Sometimes I do feel drained just in like, you know, the mental capacity and like the, you know, because I'm listening and I'm also thinking. and analyzing all at the same time. And so it takes a lot.

And then a lot of times it's emotionally. There's people that are really suffering. And so that's emotionally draining. But they're not coming at me. Like they're not for the most part making it like I've done something wrong. So I think when you're getting a lot of that like attacking or even there, I mean, speaking, they're speaking nicely to me. They're speaking kindly.

When someone's speaking aggressively to you, I think that can be hard to not take personally. She said she's trying not to take it personally, but it can be really tough. And I think the advice that I have for her, again, and it's similar to the first one that we talked about, is really not only this, not taking anything personally, but I think for everybody across the board, you know, like realizing, especially after our conversation hearing this, it's not about you. We're not mad at you. Nobody's mad at you. It's not you. It's them.

They either had a bad day or the corporate. that you work for has systems in place that are not, you know, in the customer's best interest. Or there are just holes in the system and, you know, it's not working out, but really reminding yourself, this is not about you. You're not doing anything wrong. You're trying the best you can. And again, I love that mantra of like, I'm leaving this better than I found it. I didn't make this mess.

I'm trying the best I can to clean it up. But it is hard. It's only human nature, right? It's literally in our DM. that when somebody is coming at us in an aggressive manner, it creates, you start to get in that fight, flight or freeze mode where you want to like fight back, but you can't. I mean, and you're being recorded and like, you know, you really have to, I think that's part of what's very draining too. It's like you have to keep resisting that human urge when someone is being aggressive with

you to be aggressive back. Right. They should almost give you, like, therapy for that. Yeah. Here's how you, you know what I mean? Here's how you stay calm in the midst of someone, especially I'm sure, like, sometimes I think mostly when it's me calling, the person is rational. Right. And has, but sometimes they're not, or I'm sure many customer service people think that I'm being irrational. So I think, I mean, I get that's a great thing to do in terms of like, am I, like, what you said, am I doing the best I can?

Why do I feel like? And it's almost like the thing we just talked about where it's like, what is the truth here? Right. The truth is this person probably had a bad day. The truth is I'm the only person this person has access to. It's not, the truth is it's not my, I didn't create this issue. And is it like, as long as you can ask yourself, am I doing everything that I can to help this person within my control? Like, am I actually doing everything that can?

Then like, then the truth is that there are rage against me is unjust. Right. So I think a few tips. One is I think you could write some type of mantra that like speaks to that and post it up in your desk somewhere like whatever it is. You know, this is not about me or I'm leaving this better than I found it or, you know, I'm doing the best I can or something that you can come back to when you start to feel yourself getting physically. I'm sure you are getting physically activated as it. is happening. And if you pay more attention to it, you can catch it a little bit earlier so that you can kind of take those deep breaths and just recite your mantra and come back to a comp place. And I would also really recommend in between phone calls, like not going. I don't know what the pressure is like to get, you know, I'm sure people are waiting online and how long the wait times are. And I'm sure there's some pressure there to like bang out as many customers as possible in a short period of time. But I would do some self-care and make sure you're taking sufficient

breaks during the day to breathe and calm your body. And the more you calm your body, the more you can kind of, you know, calm the way you're communicating. So then the last one is sort of like what we talked about, which is if you can just genuinely validate the person on the other end in some fashion, it will take a lot of the steam out of their,

you know, argument or their communication. So if you're not taking breaks and you're not reciting your mantra and you're getting worked up, you're probably like, I'm so sorry that this is inconvenient. I'm going to do the best that I can. Hang on. And that's not, you know, that's not going to soothe them. So maybe if you're taking care of yourself and you can calm your mind and you can calm your body, then you can come back and be a little bit more validating, which I pretty much guarantee, even if you're doing the identical problem solving strategy, if you can value. if you can validate this person by just saying to them, oh, wow, that sounds so frustrating, you know, like I've been there.

Hang on a second. I'm going to see what I can do to help you. You know, just giving a little something that feels genuine, I think will take a lot of the steam out of people. But when you're exhausted and you're not taking care of yourself, you're going to come off as like annoyed and aggressive. And then it's going to ask. Just too aggressive people.

Yes. Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. And then, I mean, it's so hard to not just hold on to all the negative experiences. But I'm sure, and I've said this to customer service people, so I'm sure other people do too, where it's like sometimes the person you do get on and the person is extremely helpful and they just like fix up the situation or they give you something that you really like. And like, if you can channel those times instead of the times that the person was like screaming at you and hung up on you and threatened to like speak to your manager or something like that, if you can channel more of those and like it'll probably make you feel more. more passionate and at ease of like, okay, like I actually do help people.

Yeah. Sometimes we, I actually, this job is actually a really nice way to help someone out of a problem and I'm helping people in that way. Totally. I love that too. Coming back to like giving some meaning in your job where you probably sometimes feel like it's very thankless and pointless and coming back and saying, because I've definitely been on that end of it where somewhat like I had a call recently where whatever it was,

I had some bill. I didn't know what it was. I called the person and they were very helpful. And I was like, thank you so much. This was so wonderful. This was one of the best experiences I've had on customer service in a long time. I really appreciate you. Have a great day. And then you both end up feeling good. So yeah, I like the idea of almost maybe doing like a little visualization in your mind before you start your work day or in the middle of your work day about a call that did go well. and the idea that you really can, you know, inject a little bit of positivity into somebody's day. I like that. Visualize it and meditate. It's always the answer. Especially if it's something that really did happen and you can just like remember it in your mind and like bring it like where you focus your attention is where you live your life.

So if you're spending even 10 seconds thinking about something positive, you're going to feel positive for those 10 seconds. If you're ruminating about like something that went really poorly, that's where you're going to live. You're going to feel really poorly for the next 10 seconds or however long you're thinking about it. So wherever your mind is, that's where your experience is going to lie. So visualization works for that reason. I love that. I also, I told you last time that I was going to try meditating. Oh, right.

We didn't check in. So how did that go? I did try meditating. I did a sleep meditation when I was traveling for work because it was like easier to do that because Mike wasn't there, so I could play whatever you want. I could do whatever I want without having to, like, make noise for him being there. It was really nice. And I didn't hear the end because I fell asleep.

Yeah. Okay. So that's a start. And I think a lot of people like to start with sleep meditations because you're like, wrong. That's a great start. That's what I heard. No, sleep meditations are great for sleep and they're a great intro to meditation.

The problem is you can't be one of the benefits of meditating is like staying focused on your, you know, choosing where you want your mind to be. So when you're asleep, that's not really happening. But that being said, you did spend those moments before you fell asleep. Yeah, you have to like think about where your leg is, how it hits the street, whatever it is. Yes. I love that. So I'm glad that you did it. And I'm really not.

I think it's wonderful. And sleep meditations are great. and they can also have the benefit of helping you fall asleep. So do a bunch of it. Let's up the ante. You did one between last week and this week? Yes. That's what I committed to at the time.

Okay. I can try a non-sleep meditation, maybe like five minutes. All right. Let's try that. Let's try a five-minute non-sleep meditation. But do the sleep one also. How about that? Okay.

I'll try too. The annoying thing is then I have to get like headphones. Do you do to sleep meditations if you're like. Yeah, I do. I mean, someone else in your bed. sometimes Jeff doesn't mind and he'll just like let me play it and doesn't really mind listening to it. I did get this headband thing where it's like supposed to be soft and you can kind of like lie with it. But I don't know. I don't know if I would recommend that. Tell Mike that I said he should just

listen to it one night. It's cool. It's relaxing. Let him just try it. He might do it, especially if it's a short one. I mean, if he's like lying there and he's a, it's usually very not disturbing. Right. I mean, he usually falls asleep like immediately after he tries, which is right, very frustrating. Right. But so yeah, but he's also okay. He's better with like noise. So maybe he'll, he'll be okay with it. Yeah, just let say, at least try it one. I think you could get away with always saying, just try it once. Right. And if you don't like it, I won't do it again. I'll say it's therapist recommended. Yeah. There you go. Doctor, doctor recommended. But I think we did it. I'm very excited for us. We solved everyone's problems. Yes. Keep them coming.

Yeah, keep them coming. And guys, don't forget to rate review and subscribe wherever you're listening. A lot of you have already done so. The reviews are incredible. I love, love reading them and all of the emails that you guys send us. And let us know what you want to hear more of and the segments that you really like and any other suggestions you have. Hopefully they're positive. And send your emails to oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morelas Picoe, and Rebecca Souselma. Editing by Masselio Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to Oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches.