Oversharing - Are My Friends Committing Tax Fraud?

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

This week, Jordana and Dr. Naomi discuss changing social attitudes towards mental health, and the balance between resilience and self-acceptance. Our Overshare comes from a Betch who feels invalidated by people who underestimate the severity of her husband’s illness. Today’s Betchicist goes out to a listener who is irked at her friends’ cavalier attitude towards tax write-offs. Dr. Naomi writes an intention for travel companions who cancel plans due to hypochondria. And, in our “Sweet Release” segment sponsored by Angry Orchard, we’re feeling triggered by remote therapists who leave the Alexa on during sessions and partners who make unhelpful comments during late night baby feedings. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. I feel like we haven't spoken in a bit, but it really hasn't been though.

Yeah, you just miss me. You know. I do. You just miss me. I'm going to see you soon. I'm excited. I am so excited. for that. That's going to be a blast. I hope

everything goes smoothly. We'll welcome you to Texas. The weather's great. I hope it stays that way. What's great there? Like 70s. Between 70 and I think it's going to be 80 on Friday. Wow. So we're that's nice. We're cooking on all burners here. So come on down. Yeah, I'm excited about that. I had come across this interest. I think it was fed to me on like Instagram or TikTok or something. And I had come across this video by a therapist that I had sent to you. And if you guys want to check this out before we talk about it, the handle is Raquel underscore the underscore capacity underscore expert.

So I'm sure if you look at Raquel, the capacity expert, you can find her on Instagram. She is basically a therapist. and we were looking at her video about, basically about what she calls the destigmatization of mental health and how it may have maybe like swung too far in the other direction. I really like this. There's a weird balance between like setting boundaries to protect your mental health and acceptance. of like we have no control over other people and the world.

And, you know, I know a lot of people are into like the let them theory now. Like that's like a big, you know, like if somebody's going to do this, let them. And I like that because it's like acceptance. But on the flip side, I think a lot of people go to therapy sometimes or just like take on, give themselves like she talks about like everything's a diagnosis when it's like, Right. You know, I, like, I have anxiety, people will say. Like, this isn't good for my anxiety.

Like, as if your anxiety is like your little pet that you like bring. Right. Your child. Yeah. I bring around my anxiety with me. And that thing that you just said is not good for my anxiety. So it becomes kind of this crutch that allows, like, accepting that we have anxiety or whatever it might be, this crutch that like, you may not disturb me.

And you may not do things that are not good for my mental health or my anxiety. And I like what she's saying, which is like it's swung so far. The superpower that we want to achieve by going to therapy or becoming more mentally healthy is resilience. It's not like we're so boundaryed that we're living in this box that we've created for ourselves where we cut off anyone that says anything that triggers us, where we cut off anyone that, um, you know, doesn't, you know, that, that just kind of makes us feel upset versus what real mental health is is I can handle that. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, I think it's very

interesting sort of like the theory or what she's posited, which is basically like, okay, like 50 years ago, it's very stigmatized to see a therapist, the idea of therapy, probably you're seen as weak. And there's just, I think, a little bit more of a tough it out mentality around all things. And then I think there was a correction to that. And I mean, I'd love your take as a therapist and what the capacity expert is pointing out, I guess, in that an effort to destigmatize therapy and to make therapy more socially accepted. we've almost like over-accepted it as in the sense of like, oh, and then this is sort of like a memeable thing about like men. Like if he's not in therapy, then he's, you know, he's not a good catch or he's, uh, or again, like I think random people throwing around therapy terms where it's not necessarily like their true meaning.

Like you might be dating someone that breaks up with you and you're like, oh, he's a narcissist. or, you know, a misuse of the attachment styles or something like that. It's almost, and like, like, like you said, like an over, like weaponizing therapy to almost just not do anything that makes you uncomfortable. Yes. Or to avoid hard truths. Yeah. Like, you know, in a dating example, like, oh, he's such a narcissist because he didn't

care that he broke up with me the day after that. It's like. St. Patrick. Right. Right. You know, it's kind of like there is such a superpower in being resilient. Like this person broke my heart. I feel really sad.

He didn't like me that much or he didn't like me as much as I like him or she didn't, you know, want to continue dating me with the seriousness that I wanted to continue dating her, whatever the thing. And it's like that hurts my ego. But mental health is like being able to recognize. that your ego has been wounded, cry, feel your feelings, do the whole thing without projecting this like control. I think a lot of these terminologies are ways to feel like more in control of the outside world. Like this one's a narcissist, this one's not respecting my boundaries.

And to victimize yourself in a lot of ways, which again, I think like makes you the right one and the aggressor the wrong one or if you don't want to do something, again, protecting your mental health does feel you can't really, it's hard to come back at that. Like if you know, if you tell your boss or someone like, I can't do this, it's about my mental health. Like, it's hard. What are you going to say to that? It does feel like you can overuse these things. But I think it's hard because it's like, you know what I mean? It's a pendulum, right? We just said that. Like, there are things that you should do to protect your mental health or there are things that boundaries that you should put up. So it's hard to know where the line is between like,

this is one I think we can figure out how to get through versus like, oh, you actually don't have to do that. I think we, we kind of do a pretty good job. If I'm, if I'll say so myself, on a lot of these topics where some things were kind of like, you can breathe through it and you can do that. And other things, it really is like case dependent. We're saying, no, you don't have to do that. Yes. It's okay to, to not. you know, I think we were, the one that comes to mind most clearly is the woman who had her son had died and she didn't, she felt uncomfortable going to baby showers and funerals.

And like that seems like a case where, you know what I mean? Like one person might look at that and say, well, you can be uncomfortable and go. And another person might look at that and say, no, that's not something you have to do. So I don't, I think it's hard because there's no kind of line in the sand over like, this is traumatic. You can opt out versus. is you're kind of using this as an excuse to not do hard things. Yes.

And that's a great example. On the flip side, there's, you know, the one where the woman didn't really want to drive in the car with her boss because maybe it was like a little bit of an awkward situation. And, you know,

she was feeling some social anxiety. But I do think, you know, on something like that, it's good to push yourself to grow to be like, I'm resilient. I can be in an uncomfortable social situation. and not have to, I mean, it's pretty clear that avoidance doesn't help when it comes to getting, you know, being able to move through anxiety and specific.

Like when we avoid things that make us anxious, the anxiety grows. So I do think there are situations where there's like deep trauma or, you know, PTSD that you're working through, things like that. even if it is like severe depression or but yeah it is hard to know when it's okay to set your boundary and when you should be pushing yourself but i do i really like what she's saying because i think there is a lot of merit to the idea that you know like it's okay to just like cancel plans last minute because you know you just needed like to stay home and take a bath because you had a rough day at work. It's like, no, get dressed, take a couple deep breaths, have a cry, you know, whatever you got to do. And you made plans. Like, get up and get there and push through. I agree. There's, there's a lot of value in learning that you can do hard things.

Almost by like misusing these terms or throwing them around or using that kind of thing as a mental health thing, you sort of like weaken the meaning of it for people who actually. are going through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I really agree.

I'm glad that I'm glad that you sent it over. And I think, you know, if you're out there and you're listening to this, just being mindful of, you know, are you pushing yourself to handle things that are difficult? You need your toolbox. Like, that's what therapy should be. Therapy should be like there's a, there are hard things, but I have this toolbox and front of me. And when I approach the hard thing, I don't just retreat back and say, that's too hard. I can't do it. I open my toolbox and I start going through them one by one. Okay. First step, I'm going to try some deep breaths, that I'm going to try my affirmations, that I'm going to try

a meditation, that I'm going to try exposure therapy and just get out there and do it. And, you know, you're kind of moving through the steps of how to become more resilient, not how to hide and blame and and all that. So I thought this was was a pretty cool, you know, just to make us all aware, even like comments that people make, you know, like, oh, I don't like that she comments on what I'm eating. And it's like, okay, could you cut off the friendship because you don't like that they're commenting on what you're eating? Sure, then you won't have to deal with that, with those comments. But what's going to make you stronger is being able to sit there and be like, okay, I know my truth about how I feel about what I'm eating or not eating and myself.

And I can certainly voice my opinion. I don't like the way that makes me feel. That's one of the tools in your toolbox. Like asserting yourself. Use it. Yeah. So, yeah. You know, this brings us back to we talk about this in our feedback episode about like the people who get mad at us.

Because they don't agree with our advice, which is, fine. Right. But again, even being able to have that conversation, right? Like, it makes me uncomfortable that people don't like what we have to say or that we hurt somebody's feelings or that that genuinely makes me uncomfortable. Even, you know, sharing your opinions on something that might be unpopular is uncomfortable. But being able to have that dialogue is that's part of building resilience. Like I can hear what you have to say about me. I don't like it. I might even have like a little bit of a pressure on my chest or a little bit of a lump in my throat or whatever that is. Like I can handle that. I can breathe through it. I can handle it. I can get to the other side.

So yeah, this is a good. I do think the pendulum has swung and, you know, it is great to try to become a better person. But I talk to my groups about this all the time. Like, you know, people are in group and they're, they come to group because they're trying to work on themselves, right? And you come to therapy because you're trying to work on yourself. But sometimes there is this place where you're sort of, you know, the other side of the pendulum is like, what if I'm okay just as I am?

Well, then you're out of a job. No, but like, if you come. come in and you say, there's this, the people that are showing up to therapy, a lot of them, are trying so hard to be different than however they are. Maybe it's because they want people to like them more, or they want to get a partner, or they want to get a different job, or, you know, just this kind of pushing, pushing, rather than saying, like, I'm just going to accept whatever this is, wherever I am right now, sometimes I'm comfortable, sometimes I'm uncomfortable, but I don't need to make any like major changes in myself in order to feel or major changes.

I mean, what we're talking about here is like major changes in other people, but I think it can also refer to making major changes in myself. Like maybe I will, you know, if I, if I change, if I work out more, if I, if I'm more of a people pleaser, maybe I'll find a, partner sooner or if I, you know, it's almost like just letting the world unfold, realizing that there's going to be ebbs and flows of moments where you're going to feel really uncomfortable. And I, right, and you don't need to do anything. You don't need the outside world to change. You don't need your inner world to change. You just need to relax and breathe and it will pass whatever that discomfort is, whether it's, I need someone else to change or I feel like I need to change to make my life feel better.

Well, but I guess I'm a little confused when you're saying, like, the idea that you can accept yourself just, is that sort of like a different thing of balancing, like, your need to be the best person you can be and just accepting yourself as you are, flaws and all? Well, I think, let's take anxiety for example. Like, a lot of people will come in to therapy, like, you know, I have anxiety. I don't want to have, I don't want to have anxiety anymore. I want to work on my anxiety.

And sometimes what makes people have like anxiety slash depression is this idea of like, I've tried everything and I still feel anxious instead of kind of being like, okay, sometimes I'm going to feel anxious. And that's okay. Like I'm just going to tolerate this feeling of anxiety instead of feeling like I have anxiety and I need it to go away. like I need to work towards never having this feeling ever again, which probably won't happen. So maybe it's probably be maladaptive to never having something.

Or like, you know, certain times where it is adaptive. For sure. Anxiety is adaptive. But I think a lot of people will kind of diagnose themselves with whatever it is. Like I have anxiety, for example. And they're going to keep working on themselves. to the point of trying a million different therapies and reading every single book and watching all the TikTok videos about all the things that you can do to not have this feeling anymore.

And sometimes I think the best thing to do is just kind of be like, I'm not going to label this. I don't need to diagnose it. It doesn't need to be pathological. It's just a wave of life that I kind of have to learn to tolerate instead of treating it like it's in some cases an illness that needs to be treated and eradicated. You know, like anything else that you become fixated on, it sort of like hinders your ability to do less of it because you think about it all the time. Yes. Yes. And then you're kind of obsessively like, I can't be happy until I get rid of this

anxiety. And now it's like a project and it's like a challenge that you've created for yourself when maybe the answer is like life is imperfect and it's going to be uncomfortable and sometimes you're going to feel anxious. Right. And then you just, then the anxiety eventually passes through and you can get back to finding another moment of joy or neutral, you know, emotion or whatever that is. So I, yeah, I think there's something to the idea of like pathologizing a lot of things and trying to find a cure for them or trying to handle, you know, all these things with action versus

just handling things by just breathing through it, letting it come, letting it go, and not writing an entire narrative about an emotion that you're having. That seems wise. And how can they, can they join your groups to help you them get to that point? Yes. I would love to help you get to that point. And look, we, we do techniques to help. help with anxiety. But I think sometimes, you know, there is a place for just kind of like,

this is never going to be completely gone for a lot of people. And like you said, probably a good thing. But if you would like to join my groups, Naomi Bernstein.com, check it out. All the info is on there. I have plenty of space. It's rolling. So when you join up, just a little bit of info, I ask you to commit to four sessions just so that people aren't coming and going every single week. But come try a month see if you like it if you don't like it you can you know discontinue at any time but it's a really fun community i mean i just got off my group sessions for the day and it's just such a supportive community and if you're suffering from loneliness this is a great place to go because you know every week you have a place where the people that are showing up there want there's there is healing

in supporting others. So you know there's a place where people want to hear what you have going on. They want to be there for you. And it is going to be healing for you to spend the alternative week being there for somebody else and kind of getting out of your own head and giving yourself some perspective. So Naomi Bernstein.com. Check it out. And also you can subscribe to oversharing, get the episodes day early, ad free, and two bonus

episodes a month. So you can subscribe, subscribe.bethges.com or you can subscribe on Apple podcasts. And if you want to leave us a voicemail, you can leave us a voicemail at 646363, 6294, or you can email us at oversharing at betches.com. Let's get into our first email. I'll read it. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, my husband has stage three cancer. This is his second cancer diagnosis with the first being stage two in 2023. I struggle with people thinking or acting like it's not a big deal. For context, he has melanoma. My frustrations are with people who think it's just skin cancer and nothing serious or life-threatening. I can understand this as I didn't fully grasp the situation the first time he was diagnosed either. However, it is serious. When advanced,

melanoma is just like any other cancer in the sense that it can invade your lymph nodes and spread to internal organs. So far, my husband has had his entire left ear removed. and reconstructed, and underwent an extensive seven-hour surgery that left his neck looking like Frankenstein. He also receives immunotherapy, infusions every three weeks. In a nutshell, this could kill him, and I get so down when friends, family, and coworkers treat the situation as if it's a simple mole removal, or say things like, he'll be fine, it's just skin cancer. When in fact, this has completely changed our lives, including my husband's ability to work and interact with our children, and I find myself wondering if I'm going to be a single mom in two years.

How can I remain cool, calm, and collected when people don't understand what we're going through? Is it something I even need to explain or should I allow them to brush it off? S. Cancer is a batch. P.S. Duranna, please wear sunscreen. Honestly, this email has definitely gotten in my head about that. And this sounds awful. and it does actually make me think twice before not applying sunscreen. So thank you for the reminder. Yes.

Yes. This is really hard. I mean, I'm trying to think of like how what the context is that people are saying this. Because as she's saying it, it sounds kind of unbelievable that people are. I would say it'll be fine. It's just skin cancer. Right. The reactions seem kind of crazy to me and insensitive.

I guess there is a sense. of like you do hear relatively often, not all the time of people getting like, like pre-cancerous moles removed or things like that. Pre-cancerous, like getting a precancerous thing removed and that being so commonplace is maybe what is causing. Because you've seen that a lot, I'm sure, right? Like a lot of people I've heard of have, have getting that. And I think maybe people are mistaking it with the serious.

I mean, if someone told me that they had, they are their. husband had stage three cancer, I wouldn't have the same reaction. Yeah. I believe her. I'm sure this is happening. Yeah. And I think it's probably happening because people are uncomfortable and it makes them more comfortable to think about it that way and to try to be positive. And that probably makes them feel better about the interaction instead of the alternative, which feels also kind of awkward, just kind of saying like, wow, that is really scary. So, sorry you're going through that. Totally.

And I think this happens a lot. I mean, with all sorts of different things where like people assume that things are fine or you'll be fine or like you said, they want to say something positive to sort of like move the interaction along and maybe like not sit with the discomfort of it. Or a lot of times people just really don't know the extent, like the, how extensive the treatment things are or how much they're really affecting your life. life. And that goes for all sorts of things. I mean, I've had that with like the fertility stuff. It's like people don't really know what that entails or what goes into it. And so in their

mind, it's not as big of a deal as it might be for you because they don't know the day to day of it. They don't know the ins and outs of it. And they're never going to, I mean, you know what I mean? Empathy is like when you have, when you put yourself in someone's shoes, but they don't really necessarily know what that even looks like if they have an experienced it or if they don't know someone who's experienced it. So I do think there's a little bit of, I assume most people aren't trying to be mean or minimize something. They might just not understand just how big of a deal it is. I think the fear is that they don't want to make, they don't want to give you a face or an expression or whatever that makes you feel like, oh my God, this is really bad. Like, wow,

this is a big deal. Right. But you already know. know that it's not good and it's a big deal. So, you know, it's almost like the idea of like if someone experiences a loss, you don't want to call them and saying like, how are you doing since your, you know, parent died? Like if they're not thinking about it, you don't want to make them think about it. But so I do think that depending on your mood or what you're, what kind of interaction you're open to having, I think you can be like, actually, it is really bad. this is what it's like and these are my fears and depending on the person and the interaction. I think that's okay or maybe even actually, do you mind if I explain a little bit more about

what actually is happening here? And then explaining a little bit more about what's actually happening so that they are aware. I think it's probably hard for this listener to do that because she's going to have to sit in that uncomfortable moment of. of like, wow, you're really going through something really hard and scary. And I don't know how to handle it. I don't know what to say. If it's your friend or your family member that you want to have an intimate relationship with,

I think you can easily say something like, you know, when you say it's going to be fine, I feel like that kind of minimizes my experience. Like it's actually been really difficult. Here's why. Yes. But I think that that brings you closer to someone and they, and lets them into an experience that they might not know. But I can't imagine if you told someone that your husband's ear needed to be removed

and reconstructed and parts of his neck, like I can't imagine someone would still have that. Oh, it's no big deal with skin cancer. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, yeah, I, I completely agree. And I think you can, you know, and it doesn't even matter who it is.

If somehow this conversation is opened and you're in the mood to talk about it or you feel like you would like to clarify or you feel like you would like to clarify what's going on here, go for it. And just kind of, you know, you can ask permission if you want. But if the conversation is open, the permission is there just to say exactly what you just said. And that being said, if you're not in the mood to go down that road, I think, again, just like breathing through it and realizing I know the reality of what this is. I don't need this person's approval that I can be, that I can be scared, that I can be worried that this is my reality. You're living it. So I think this is a good example of like I can use the tools in my toolbox to kind of ride through, you know, this moment of discomfort.

One of the tools is I can correct them and explain it and look for some intimacy here. And one of them is I can breathe and know that I don't need this person to validate my experience in order to know that it's true. Right. Yeah. I like that advice. What is the proper thing to say to someone who tells you that, you know, let's use this because this is the example given of someone who says my husband's, you know, actually

dealing with skin cancer? Like what would, what is, I think people don't know. Right. So they default to that, oh, like, I'm sorry. I'm sure it'll be fine, though. It's just getting canceled. Right. Right. Like what is the, what should you say? Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard. I don't think there's any right answer, but I think something like, you know, wow, that sounds really hard. I'm really sorry that you're going through that. I'm really sad to hear that you're going through that. I think sometimes even offering, depending on the context, like, do you want to. tell me more about what's going on is a good question like just asking um you know seeing if that is something that you know maybe she is in the mood to kind of share what's happening um the i'm so sorry i know that that aggravates some people because it's like you hear it so often um but what i think that means or another way to say it is that that makes me really sad to hear that you're going

through that you know that's kind of like what i'm so sorry means So I think just leaning in, it really depends on the relationship, the context. I think sometimes like a hug, depending on who this person is, might just kind of be like, I don't have the words, but like I want to show my care and like love for you. Like that's kind of a nice way to handle it. But yeah, and just asking. I think it is nice to ask, like, do you want to tell me more about what you've been going through? Might be a great opening.

And sometimes people say not right now, but like maybe later or like I'll call you or it's, I think it is like just that person's discomfort when they want to brush it off. Oh, at least it's just skin cancer. I could see people saying that sometimes like, oh, at least it's just skin cancer and it's not whatever, some other kind of cancer. whatever, which, yes. I validated. This is really angering because it does sound like a big deal. So I feel for you.

I know that I could see on your face that you do too. And yeah, definitely thinking of you and hoping that treatment's work and you guys can get to the other side. Yes. Hopefully this helped. And again, hopefully this helped anyone listening who. Doesn't know what to say because I think that that is a very common thing. And I think if more people knew what to say, knew what to say, they would have better interactions

and other people would feel more supported. And yeah, so hopefully this helps. All right, let's do a betchaicist. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, love the pot and recently became a subscriber. Awesome. Thank you. You are my comfort show and you bring such a calming presence to my ears. Now for my question, which is related to tax season.

A few years ago, I formed a good group of girlfriends, and we're now all in our 30s. Some of them are self-employed to some extent, either owning their own business full-time, doing it as a side hustle, or working as a contractor. I love surrounding myself with other motivated, hardworking women. But there's something that they all do that really bothers me. They lie about their tax write-offs. I learned they are writing off things that really shouldn't care. in my opinion and probably not in the opinion of the IRS either.

They say they can write off a coffee meeting as work related when it's really just brunch with the girls. They write off all their manicures and workout clothes for quote personal appearance expenses. Another friend dropped off bags of old t-shirts to a thrift store and had them write her receipt of $300 when it was really worth almost nothing. One friend said she goes on vacation with her boyfriend and write some stuff off as a business trip. I've been on vacation with them and they joke that our dinner tab can go on their card as a write-off. They even write off swimsuits, which makes no sense to me since their businesses are completely unrelated.

One friend said by the end of her write-off calculations, she's reduced her taxable income so much that she owes, quote, almost nothing. I once asked if it was considered fraud, but was told that their businesses are so small that it's unlikely the IRS would ever find out. I understand that this can be a way to take advantage of the system and I definitely do some things to reduce my own taxable income myself, like contributing to a retirement plan and making charitable donations. But this seems to go too far. It always bothers me to catch people in a white lie, but I notice that I really hate it when people lie for money. The same friends have stretched the truth to get other gigs or side hustles, and that doesn't sit right with me.

It's not that I feel jealous. It just feels a little scummy. I do think there are some things that aren't that they aren't considering. First of all, if they're spending most of their income on frivolous things, that's one concern. I also think this could come back to bite them if they ever need to prove their income for a mortgage or lease as their income will be much lower on their tax forms since they write off so much. This really has nothing to do with me at all, but it still bothers me. I'd probably rated a one or two on the triggering scale myself, L.O.L. But I thought it might be an interesting ethical discussion this time of year.

Happy tax season. Yeah. To all who celebrate or don't because they write everything off. I thought this was an interesting question. You know, you hear about this a lot. There's definitely a range of things that people write off that are legit to not legit and some are more absurd than others. I can see how if she's working like for a corporation and nine to five and she sees all these people doing this, she probably feels a little jealous.

She probably feels. And I think she didn't say that. But I think that's a little bit of the emotion that she has under there. Maybe it is the scammy thing. I'm sure there's a little bit of jealousy or a feeling of things are not fair. Like some people have to pay more when others are getting away with paying less when it's not legitimate. One thing I will note, though, is that no matter how small your business is, you can get audited at any time. And that's a risk that they're taking when they're doing these things. They're taking the risk of this audit.

They're taking the risk of, I guess, potential fraud charges or whatever the tax evasion thing is. And that's a risk they take every time they do one of those. write-offs and they're living with that risk. Right. Yeah, hopefully that I can make her feel a little better that it is fair. Like hopefully that hopefully they get audited and she feels a little better. Yeah, I think there's a part of it that is like if she's working for a company and the taxes are just straightforward and it is what it is that it's unfair. There could be a part of this that just feels like if you are capable of like she said in there something like it does bother me when I

catch people in a white lie. So like there might be a part of this just makes her feel like she doesn't really fully trust them. Like if you can do this, then what else are you capable of doing? Do you think you would feel the same way? I don't because I think there's a different. I think people, myself included, feel like there's a difference between the way you treat like a nameless, faceless entity like the IRS.

Right. Right. It feels like a victimless crime. Right. Even though it might not be, but you're not. Right. You know, seeing any real victims in your wake. Right.

So it's almost like I would feel this way if I heard that someone was being sketchy or scammy with like a customer in their business or like if they left even if they left like a 10% tip. I would feel like maybe a certain way about them because there's a waitress who's a direct person that you're Right. So I think that's almost what makes this more generally societally accepted is like, especially if you're like feeling angry at the government or you're feeling like this is like a little silent rebellion in some way or what I, you know, it's almost it does. I think people find it more okay because it's. It's not, doesn't feel like it's an actual person.

Yes. And you hear about like people who are like billionaires doing this on a much larger scale all the time. Yes. So it kind of feels like if everyone's doing it, then, you know, why am I going to be the order? Yes. Yes. I see why it could make her feel uneasy. I personally don't think I would feel uneasy if I found out a friend was doing this in this.

in this way. But I think if I found out they were doing this in this way with anyone that had that was not like a nameless, faceless entity, I would feel like, hmm, this is just making me second guess, like how I can trust you. Right. Yeah. They didn't get a secret Santa gift for someone in the group. Yes.

Yes. Like, okay, just no one will ever know that it was me. And, you know, exactly. But again, like, the further the line is from like acceptable, the more likely they are to potentially be audited. Yeah. Which like they're not like they haven't gotten stamped that this is okay. Like there is still a risk. So if that makes her feel any better. Like let's say she's a, you know, whatever. She's an attorney and she works for a law firm and they're writing off manicures for their professional image. She's like my manicures make me feel like I have a professional. professional image too, but I can't write those off because I don't have my own business. I wouldn't look at this as like, you can't trust these people. I think if that's her fear that like they're scummy or they're not above board,

but I do feel this way with white lies. Like I've caught friends or people that I know in a white lie that has nothing to do with me. And I'm like, interesting. How white. Give me an example. Like saying that you. we're doing something on a night when you were doing something else, you know, like,

okay, yeah. I don't know, like someone asked you for plans and you said you couldn't because you had something, but you really didn't. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I just stepped back and I'm like, oh, okay, that was easy. That looked pretty easy for you.

Interesting. Noted. The white light or real person thing is worse than this in my, just my feeling on it. I also think the culture of, it seems like it's a few people in this friend group, right? So it's socially accepted among the friend group, which I think is a whole other part of it. Like you kind of are who you surround yourself with. If one person in the group said, oh, I'm in writing off this bikini and everyone else was like, oh, my God. But if everyone's talking about all the stuff they're writing off, it almost seems like, you know, part of the culture.

Like that's just kind of like what we do. But yeah, I would say you can keep the friendships. I could see why it would bother you. I could see why you'd feel a little like sense of unfairness or sense of jealousy to an extent. But, you know, that's life. It's not always fair. You're right. I do think there is a, because there's so many of them doing it.

Yeah, the cultural part of it, I think it's accepted by everybody. And you don't want to be the one that's like, hey, gaj, that's not right. you know I'm calling I wonder what the IRS would think of your so I'm glad that statement I'm glad you're writing don't say that I'm glad you're writing in here I do validate that like when people that you're close to do sketchy things it can take you a back a little bit um and also she doesn't know what she would do in their circumstances she hasn't had her own business maybe she wouldn't do that maybe she would and it's not your problem also like right to to wrap up like you're not the one that's going to get audited. You're not the one that's potentially some of these things are it's not worth the the stress of

the potential like they're willing to take that risk and that's their risk to take. It's not your problem like if they one day get a phone call from the IRS or a letter or whatever they're the ones that are going to be having like heart palpitations. So that's on them. Let's do some intentions. We have a voicemail this week. Let's roll the take. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I am calling in hopes to get an intention from you both around my friend who's a hypochondriac. So for context, we are both in our late 20s. We live out of state. We've been friends for about four years now. And we consistently plan fun trips together every couple of months or so. We'll go on like a ski trip or a hiking trip in a national park. She's a wonderful friend. We have so much fun together.

but I get so stressed on these trips sometimes because she is such a hypochondriac. She has been, you know, she's self-admitted that she is a hypochondriac. It's often, like, every morning she'll wake up and say she's nauseous or she'll have a headache or after, you know, we eat. She's like, oh, I'm so nauseous. I might throw up, like, all this stuff. And she's definitely more type B. And when we're together, I turn more type A and, you know, plan more of the trip and, you know,

kind of want to like get, I have more of like an agenda of like how I'd like the day to go. And I think I just struggled because I want to validate her feelings of like when she says she's not feeling well or she, you know, complains or things like that. I want to like empathize with her and be like, oh, that sucks. Like, want me to go grab you a Gatorade? Like, what do you need? Like, let me know. But also part of me doesn't want to validate these feelings because I don't want to like give power

to them and have them turn into a bigger deal. than they are on the trip and have that translate into, you know, us not going to one of the plans we made or skipping out on something because she's not feeling well. So, yeah, I guess it's hard. I've noticed that having an extra buffer, like an extra person on the trip has been helpful. So, like, our most recent trip, her sister was with us, which I found to be really nice, because her sister kind of would call around and be like, oh, like, you're being so annoying or like say those things that maybe I'm thinking, but I'm like, I'm not going to say that.

Like that feels mean. But as for sister, you know, she can say that. And, you know, I'm not her sister. I don't have sisters. I guess I get kind of nervous saying those kinds of things to friends because I don't want it to come off harsh. But yeah, I guess I'd love an intention around how to deal with a friend on a trip who is a hypochondriac. Thanks. Love you guys.

It's interesting because I like this because I think the hypochondriac is one example of this. But I think this happens in other situations too. Like validating someone almost feels like you're going to make it worse or you're going to validate them so much that then they're going to like get worse. Like take it and run. Like if someone has anxiety or keep doing it, they're going to get like positive reinforcement from this. Like I think I've seen this situation where there's someone who keeps like talking about their X or something or keeps talking about. a breakup and you're like, oh my gosh, like if I, if I am kind and nice and I lean in and I'm like, oh, tell me more about that or what did he say or show me the text or, you know, whatever,

then they're just going to keep going and going and going. And like, you're going to encourage this like negativity or whatever it is. Yeah. By leaning into it. But I don't know if that's the case. I don't know enough about the friend, if to see if like leaning into it and, you know, being empathic and doing all the things, if, if then that does end up with her, like, not going on the hiking trip that afternoon, then I would suggest one thing. If you leaning in and just being like, oh, like, I'm sorry, that sounds so hard, is there anything I can do to help?

Like, you know, maybe you want to lie down for it. Like, even if she says, maybe you want to lie down for a few minutes, if that's, if you're, if that really does turn into like five hours, then I could see why you'd want to kind of be like, you're fine, don't worry, it's not a big deal. Like you can get through it.

Let's just go or not even pretend you don't hear her or whatever you might. If you lean in, does she really end up like canceling the plans? But even if she does, my advice would be like for you to be telling yourself, I'm going, I'm going to go through with my day. If you choose not to come, I'm still going to go on the hike.

I'm still going to go out to dinner. I'm still going to do what I'm going to do. Then that might free you up to lean in and be a little bit softer and kind of be like, we can talk about this, but like I'm leaving for the hike at 9.30. I do think a lot of people sort of thrive off the attention that that's giving with them. And if they don't get that positive reinforcement, they'll just keep going. I have a friend who once did this where they were like, I'm uncomfortable. I want to, I'm leaving.

I'm going to, I'm going to leave. And they would do this a lot. And what I would say eventually was, okay, well, we'll meet you back at the hotel then a little bit later. Yes. Yeah. And they never leave. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Sometimes what people want to, and I'll do this a lot of times if I have a headache. Right. I'm like, I have a headache. I wonder if it's because I didn't drink enough water. Maybe it's because I didn't get enough sleep or I wonder. You kind of try to figure out like where it came from. And if she really is a hypochondriac, that might be what she wants is to like engage in an investigatory conversation.

Like, why do I have the headache? If I can figure out what happened that caused the headache, then I know that it's not like a brain tumor and I'm going to die, which I think if she's really a hypochonoh. That's the fear. That's her fear. Right. I was like, I have this symptom. I don't know why. And so a worst case scenario comes into my mind about why am I nauseous or why do I have a headache.

If you're a hypochondriac, do you actually have a headache? It's almost like if I can explain it, like if you're sleeping and you have like a itchy sensation on your arm. Oh, you might think there's a bug in your bed or something. Where you're kind of like, this actual sensation isn't that bad. I could probably just ignore it and go back to sleep because like it's not really like a terribly itchy sensation. But what if it's a bug? And then now you're like, now you feel it even. Now it almost feels like more like it almost gets worse because you're fearful of it.

it being something more than just like a little itchy sensation on your arm because you're thinking worst case scenario there's like an insect in my bet this type of thing is very interesting when we talk about like our our reality is what we pay attention to so like when you have this problem where you're worried about the sensations in your body being a bigger deal you pay more attention to these sensations in your body and then they actually feel worse because you're paying attention to that. Right. It sounds exactly like what we were talking about the beginning of this episode.

We were talking about it with anxiety. Right. You know, like if you're so fearful of your anxiety, if you feel like there's anxiety and all this, and you need to get rid of it and you need to get rid of it, that actually makes the anxiety worse. Yes, yes.

And I think it's the same thing with like physical ailments in this regard where it just, it can snowball because you're paying attention to it. That's why it's a thing that like, you know, like people cough more at night, right? If you have a cough, you cough tend to cough more at night when you're trying to fall asleep because like you're, there's nothing else to distract you. You're like paying attention to that little tickle in your throat.

And now you actually need to like cough more to get rid of that tickle in your throat, even though maybe you had that tickle in your throat in the middle of your day. But you were distracted by like answering the phone or, you know, going. to work or doing a project. So it is a good example that this friend is probably just hyper-focused on these things. So distraction might be helpful. It might, you know, maybe if she does want a little bit, like if she wants a 10-minute conversation about why she feels nauseous and that you think that's helpful, I would just

maybe like try out these things. And if you already have great, try out like doing the investigation thing with her and see if that helps and makes her be like, okay, I scratched that itch. Like I kind of figured out, oh, this came because I had a, you know, cheese last night and I forgot that I did. Great. You feel better. You know, it's not like a stomach tumor. You ate cheese. Move on with our day. Try out, like you said, just kind of not giving it attention and seeing if it goes away and she still goes on the hike or whatever it is. But whatever you do, I think it, it's, it's, it's, it. It's, it It won't matter if you can feel confident that you're going on the hike.

I get it's tough because I think she said it was like her long distance friend. They live out of state. And I guess that's how they see each other. Right. It's annoying because if they lived in the same state and they could just get dinner, she wouldn't have to like she maybe not she doesn't like like five day in a row, Sarah. Yes. But she.

Yeah. But it's hard because they don't live together. So I get how she's like, oh, these like, kind of you need to need to do these trips. Yeah. Or maybe it's more in your head too that like this fear of if I give her the attention she's looking for it's going to make it worse. She's not going to go on the thing instead of being like, okay, I can give her like we did this even with the couple that was the guy was obsessed with work and like obsessed with his business venture. And the advice, you know, It was kind of like, you know, when you listen to him or you lean into him talking about it,

you think it's going to make it like he's never going to stop talking about this thing. But sometimes it's like, okay, I'm going to give you 10 minutes to talk about this thing. And then I know that like it's not going to take over our lives. Like I'm going to lean in. I'm going to listen. I'm going to be empathic for 10 to 15 minutes. And then I'm going to go on with the rest of my day. So you don't have to be.

reluctantly caring or reluctantly empathic. You can be genuinely empathic because you don't fear the consequences it's going to have. So the intention that I wrote for her is I can make space for her discomfort without giving it power because I think that's her biggest fear is that her discomfort is going to have some power over their day, their trip, their plans. And there might be a chance that if you just listen to her, she'll get it out of her system and move on. I don't really know. Yeah.

Maybe try to bring a third on most of the trips, just in case she does do that. So you can go do the thing with the person who's not feeling ill. Yeah. The other thing you can do, which is advice that we typically give, is like, if she's admittedly if she's using the word hypochondriac and admittedly saying I'm a hypochondriac, you can just have this conversation with her. Yeah. This is something that you know,

you know this is something that you do. A lot of the times you might overthink this. Right. We both know I think you're going to be fine. Right. Or even like the meta conversation about like, I don't know how to interact with you when this happens. Like there's a part of me that I really want to be empathic, but I also don't feel like I fear that giving it too much attention is going to fuel it.

Right. And I would say that when she's not in a state, I would say that like in a regular moment. Right. So that she's because she's already activated in that state of probably her fear and that wouldn't be a helpful time to do it. So I would maybe bring up that discussion before your next trip. Yeah. Yeah. And if she's admitting it, she might be. be open to like you could say like how does your you know I guess her sister handles it by being like

shut up you're fine. Maybe that's what she needs. I sound sister sounds like me. Yeah. So she might say like I heard your sister kind of handle it this way like is you think that's how do you feel about that? Like is that the best way to handle it because I feel like that's insensitive. But maybe that helps you just like snap out of it. So maybe even that might be a good entry point too is. being like, this is how your sister handles it. Like, how does that work for you? Yeah. And I think you can use this for any situation where someone has like a repetitive,

intrusive thought that's kind of hindering on your overall experience. Like, bring it up when they're not activated. Ask them how they want to be, talk to about it and then go on about the rest of your day. Or one strategy that I use with my kids, which could be helpful, is like sometimes I'll get like just like chronic incessant like complaints throughout the day, which can be really draining. Like my toe hurts or like I don't like this thing or this person said this to me today. And I didn't like the way that. And instead of like having it coming at me like at all random times throughout the day, I'll just say,

okay, we're going to have like worry time. And during worry time, I'm going to sit down with you for 10 minutes. and you're going to tell me all your worries, and I'm just going to listen to your worries, and I'm going to be super empathic about your worries. Meanwhile, if I'm getting the worries, like just being like bombarded with worries randomly throughout the day, I'm a lot less empathic.

Like either I don't even respond or I'll just be like, it's fine. Don't worry about that. Like it's no big deal, which doesn't feel validating. Yeah. So like during, I like that.

During worry time, I validate. I don't try to fix it. I don't try to tell them why it's going to be okay. I just like am in it with them. But some people just want you to be in it with them a little bit. So like, but maybe you have to do that in a way that feels like within your own. I love that.

You should patent that worry time. I'm going to make Mike do that instead of, you know, he walks in the door and I'm throwing him all the issues of the day. I like, no, I do like that because he's like, You know, we've talked about this in our own marriage where it's like, you know, you want to be able to show up for the person. You want to be there for them. But some, but the context really matters. So worry time. Copy.

T.M. Yeah. I love that. 10 minutes. Is that an appropriate amount? Yeah. I mean, I try to do 10 minutes. There's only.

Well, you have three kids. Maybe I can get 20. Right. Yes. I think two adults with like, you know, I think you could get 20. worry time and it's also i think the other important part that i do that i have to remind myself when we do worry time is like i can't try to coming back to like the skin cancer thing like i can't do the thing where i'm like don't worry it's fine like you're going to be fine this is not a big

deal like to sit with them you have to sit with them and like be in it as if you're also worried about it, like that you're being in the worry with them. Don't give advice and worry time. Don't try to fix it at worry time. The rules of worry time are simple. You just have to almost act like you're crawling inside their brain and like going through it with them in that minute. Okay.

So maybe your friend needs a little worry time. Love it. I think that's a very tangible piece of advice people can take from this episode. All right. Cool. Let's do some trigger. We are not keeping anything bottled up, and neither is Angry Orchard, our sponsor for today's episode.

Angry Orchard is here to shake things up by sponsoring our triggered segment, helping you guys get that sweet release. Whether it's a petty annoyance or a full-on rage spiral, your feelings deserve to be felt and then let go. Write or call in and tell us what you're triggered about this week and we'll help you uncap all the feelings. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, love the podcast. I'll get to it.

I have been seeing a therapist and mostly see her. in person, but occasionally we'll do telehealth slash Zoom sessions. On weekends, my therapist sees patients out of an office setting, but during the week, she sees patients from her home on Zoom. I was in session the other day on Zoom, and while bearing my soul, the lights went dark on my therapist's end. Instead of getting up to turn the light switch back on, my therapist asked Alexa to adjust the lighting. Amazon's Alexa was listening the whole time. Should I be triggered? What are the ethics of this? I don't have recording devices in my own hands. I don't have recording devices in my own house and certainly don't feel comfortable knowing that all my therapy sessions are being listened to

by Amazon. How triggered should I be? Sincerely overshared to Big Brother, Batch. Interesting. I could see being bothered by this. I could totally get that. Alexa is a little creepy. I could see how it would go in the back of your head, that feeling of like a mistrust.

But I don't know. That stuff doesn't bother. me personally. I'm never like, I'm like, what are they going to do with the recording of me talking about how my sister's being a bitch? Like, I don't know. Is that going to the IRS or the, FBI? I do like, not, again, not that it's like, oh, if you've nothing to worry about, like, you shouldn't care. But I don't, I'm trying to think of a nefarious reason that a therapist would record. No, I don't think there's any. nefarious reason.

I think she just like happens to have Alexa in her house. But I do think if it's upsetting her, I think she could say I'd prefer that you turn the Alexa off during our sessions. I think that's reasonable. Yeah. That seems like a very reasonable ask, totally. And if she said no, I could say how that would be triggering. Yeah.

She wouldn't say no. I mean, I could almost see how this could happen if you're not really, you don't think about it like that. And I agree. I'm the same way. I'm like, the IRS or whoever, the government has bigger fish to fry than hearing me complain about my life.

Aside from trying to sell me stuff, that's like really what is going to happen. But they're trying to sell her stuff. They're going to. It's her Alexa. Yeah, she's probably getting all the, you know, items on her, you know,

web browser that, that you're, that you're talking about. But yeah, I think this is as simple as, telling her, tell her it bothers you. If this was me and I had a patient that came to me and said, I'm really uncomfortable having Alexa listening to what we're talking about. I would, it would be a no-brainer. No problem. I'll turn it off before our session. Right. Is this unethical? I don't. I mean,

I guess, I mean, it is unethical to record. It's not being recorded, I guess, or I don't know if it would constitute as recorded. But like, no, you're not supposed to record sessions without, someone knowing and I guess it is a good does it record I don't think it records but it sends it somewhere listening yeah I mean it must be recorded somewhere because somewhere there's an algorithm that then is like spitting out kitchen cabinet doorknobs to you when you mention

that's true cabinet doorknobs so that information is going into some database somewhere yeah so I agree. Wouldn't be that triggering to me, but perfectly reasonable request to ask for that to be off. And you could say, if you could check if any of our previous sessions have been recorded in any way, I would appreciate you finding that out and getting rid of it. Right. It would also be, I think, a reasonable request. Yeah. Yeah, look, if this was me, I might not be aware of it or even think about the idea that Alexa's listening. But it's a good, I'm glad you wrote in because, and I don't have Alexa in my office, but like if I did, I'd probably get rid of it right now without even anyone complaining because I see, I get what you're saying. And I don't think it's necessary.

Is it different than having your phone in your office? I guess that's true because your phone does like listen to you and probably does like search for some kind of keywords that it takes down. I mean, maybe we'd need to get an IT person to really explain. explain this. And I'm sure it's more like key words that your phone is listening for versus like entire conversations. But I could be wrong about that. Yeah. I'm not sure what the, the tech functionality is. But is it triggering? I guess if you're very concerned, if you're the kind of person who really is a little bit, I don't want to say paranoid, but

anxious about that kind of thing. I could see how this would be like, if that's, if your proclivity is like, I don't want the government having any of my information or anyone having any of my information or any websites having any of my information, I could see how this would be like a five or a six. Right. Yeah. If it was me personally, I think it would be like a two. Yeah. Yeah. I could agree with that. If you're of the mindset of like what nobody cares what I have to say. So, like, like nobody's really listening, then yeah, definitely like a two. But if you do, yeah, I would agree with exactly your rating.

I think if this is something that bothers you, like some people do really find Alexa listening all the time to be kind of creepy. So I get that. And you want to feel like your therapy is completely confidential that there's no one else getting information. But yeah, I would have. agree with that. I would give it, I'll give it if you do have that proclivity to being like a little bit concerned about this type of thing. Yeah, four or five. Okay. Yeah, I hear you.

I agree. Noted. I mean, I don't have Alexa, but if I did, I'd probably get rid of it right after this call. Let's, do you want to do our next one? Sure, I will read this. Hello, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I absolutely love the podcast. I'll admit, I've written in a couple of times. But even if my emails don't get airtime, it's always cathartic to write them. So thank you for doing a little extra legwork for my benefit. Yeah, write in. Get it off your chest. Yeah. Thanks for writing it. We get a lot of emails. And so if you write in enough, this email proves eventually you'll get on. Anyway, I have a lighthearted little triggered for you. We have a newborn six weeks at the time of writing. Of course, there are many newborn

struggles and much of them fall on me, the mother, especially because I'm breastfeeding. I also get parental leave, whereas my husband does not. But I get an odd ping of resentment and want to roll my eyes when my husband tries to commiserate. For example, last night, the baby was up four times throughout the night. Normally, she's up three times and I can handle that on my own. But this fourth time happens once in a while and it takes me out. My husband is always more than willing to get up to give her a bottle when I need to sleep instead. But practically every day, he'll say something like, I didn't sleep well last night either. I woke up every time you did. I've responded snarky with things like laying in bed awake is still a lot different than getting out of bed in the middle of the night in the winter,

or about how hard it is to keep my eyes open feeding her at times. But these responses seem to fall on deaf years. Sometimes I want to tell him to shut the fuck up about his tough night due to flee, monitoring my efforts sincerely, and I'm still more tired than you, betch. Okay. This is really funny. This is classic. Yeah, this is classic. This is funny.

I mean, I did hear somewhere that like once you have kids, you wake up in the morning and you both just like the first thing out of your mouth is like how terrible your sleep was and how tired. That's like you're, instead of saying good morning, you just talk about like how horribly you slept and how many times you were up throughout the night. And that's like your new way of saying good morning. Like a silent competition of like who slept the worst. Yeah.

I mean, that doesn't sound healthy. But I also feel like I hear about this all the time. And it must be we've talked about this too. Sorry about like how like you can get into that suffering competition mode and how that's not really helping anyone. Yes. But it's it's hard. I'm sure to not feel like. like you're comparing yourself to, I mean, there's two parents.

So I can see why you'd be like constantly comparing yourself to the other parent and who is more stressed out with this thing that is mutually yours. Yes. Totally. So I totally understand the urge and I can't say that I wouldn't be partaking. Yes. No, I totally relate. I think this happens. And it probably happens even when you don't have kids.

Like maybe if there's like a lot of stuff to do and you're super busy and there's like a lot of errands to run, it's almost. And I'll do this sometimes. You know, I like my naps. So sometimes like if I wake up and I don't sleep well, I'll kind of like plant the seed of like, and I'm going to need a nap later. So I'm just letting you know now by planting the seed of like how terribly I slept that at two o'clock when I say that I need a nap, you're going to watch the kids so I can have a nap. So I think there might be this little bit of him also planting the seed.

see that he's tired and might need, you know, some extra help throughout the day or there's a reason you guys are communicating this. Right. And it's harder to express gratitude, I think, when you're, when one person is also in it even to a lesser extent. Right. Like, it's easy. I think it's much easier to expect.

If I take on a project fully, Mike has nothing to do with it. He can so easily be like, thanks for planning this whole, like, if I plan a vacation, thanks for planning this whole vacation. We're having a great time. But if we're both like cleaning up after having people over or having a thing and I feel like I'm doing more, I don't think that he's going to be running to be like, thanks so much for cleaning up because he probably feels like it's not like he's not clean. Like then it becomes a competition. Totally. And I do think this is sort of this common couple issue where you're paying more attention to what you're doing.

Like even if you are getting up. And I totally agree because I was that. person. Like, you're the one getting up. You're the one trying to pry your eyes open while you're trying to feed the baby in the middle of the night. You're actually moving your body and he's just laying there awake. But his experience is, I'm not sleeping. So like, all things equal, not sleeping and waking up and feeling tired is also hard. I don't, I don't want you to come away from this thinking that I'm not validating. That is very annoying that he's complaining. that he's tired when he's literally just lying there watching you do everything.

Because that other thought of me is like, if you're up anyway, you do it. And I'll go back to sleep. Yeah. Right. And I've had that thought too. It's like you don't have to suffer in silence like lying here awake. You can just be like, hey, I'm up anyway. I'll take the baby and do the feeding and you can go back to sleep.

So totally validated, but I do think couples often get into this like martyr. syndrome where it's like who's experiencing the most hardship right now and that person wins. I think what they're what you're both really looking for and you're not able to give it because you're both in it is like, wow, that sounds really hard. You must be really tired. Do you want to take a nap? At least that's what I want is like, I want the offer of like arrest at some point later in the day if I need it.

So maybe he wants that too or some acknowledgement that he's tired. But it does make me think about that, that author that we had on about like the not bed sharing and how sometimes that can be helpful. So like sleep divorce. Yeah, sleep divorce. Sounds like you guys need a little sleep divorce. It's what every new mom wants to hear. Yeah. I think couples have a hard time when there's a newborn.

almost with like the taking turns like it almost feels like every we have to do all of this as a family like we have to you have to wake up just when I'm even though you have to wake up when I'm feeding the baby or I remember when we first got married so funny like the very first diaper change in the middle of the night like Jeff was standing there and we were doing it together and it was like we were changing this baby in the middle of the night and that was like the last time that that ever happened. Like we're rightfully right. Ridiculous. So like I do think with couples and babies, sometimes there is this feeling of like, I want you to genuinely rest so that I then can also genuinely rest instead of everybody kind of half being involved in every single thing

where it's like, okay, I'm going to be with you don't both need to be with. You don't both need to be with the baby at all times. Like, yeah, you can do your shift, I'll do my shift. And I know it's fun sometimes to be together and doing it together. But if it doesn't feel fun,

it both feels like you both are just having like a slow energy leak all the time. I would strongly recommend you get recharged, then let him get recharge. If there is another place to sleep and he's waking up, when you're waking up, maybe he should sleep there. So then he's rested. and then in the morning or the next day when you need a break,

he's well rested and he can give you that break. I would, I'd give this a five. I think this is triggering. I think it's triggering, especially when you're sleep deprived. I think everything is bumped up a couple of notches on the triggered scale regardless. So I'd give it a five.

It's an annoying thing to hear when you're up all night. Totally, totally. But good luck. Let us know good luck how that method goes if he's open to it. Trigger, trigger validated. This is a tough one. All right. That's our time.

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