Oversharing - Baby Steps: A Sister's Gift Of Surrogacy Ft. Emily Simpson

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

In this seventh episode of Baby Steps Season 2, Jordana is joined by Real Housewives of Orange County's Emily Simpson as she opens up about her fertility journey, including the decision to have her sister serve as her surrogate. Emily shares the emotional highs and lows of multiple miscarriages, the legal complexities of surrogacy, and the profound bond she shares with her sister. From the joy of welcoming her daughter, Annabelle, to navigating the process of finding a second surrogate, Emily delves into every facet of their fertility journey and offers insights into finding support, coping with financial burdens, and maintaining mental well-being amidst fertility treatments. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome back to Baby Steps. I'm Trudan Abraham and as always I'm joined to introduce our guest with my sister licensed clinical therapist Dr. Naomi Bernstein. Hey, Jodj, excited to be back. These episodes are amazing. Who do we have up this week? This week we have, I'm personally a big fan of hers. We have Emily Simpson from Real Housewives of Orange County. I love her on the show. I think you'd really enjoy her too. She brings like a very my opinion, like logical perspective to the chaos that is Real Housewives. I do. That's, that is always my favorite character on a reality show is like they're just, because it reminds me of myself, like I kind of like, you know, engaging with people in that way,

but I also like kind of bringing that dose of, you know, rational thinking into a chaos. Like that's my wheelhouse. bringing rational thinking into a chaotic situation. Yeah. And she does it very well. And it's hard, you know, it's hard to be asked back on these shows if you're not contributing to the drama. Yeah.

So I, it's impressed with her ability to, um, last long and, um, bring a new perspective. But I had heard on one of the episodes, I reached out to Emily after I heard in an episode that she was talking about how her sister had carried her children. Oh, wow. Okay. which was a very interesting twist on on like the surrogate stories that I've heard and you know like I was very interested to find out like what that was like for the two of them for their relationship how that happened I mean like I think people talk about this sort of maybe like in a lighter way

when they don't really know what the what actually entails but it's such an amazing thing to be able to do for someone to carry it and she says you know I saw it I think on her mother's day post where she's like, I'm just forever grateful that my sister's like given me these kids. And she has an older daughter and then two twin boys that her sister carried all three of them. Right. You know, at face value, it really sounds so sweet and almost like a perfect scenario because that's the aunt. So it's like then the aunt has this extra little bond with their nieces and nephews. and they're going to be in their life forever.

And it feels like it is this very just like kind of a perfect way to go about it. But I'm assuming that there, did you guys talk about any ways that it was difficult or complications or jealousy or. I think because her sister lived in a different state than her, maybe there was like not as much of that. And she says they've always been very close. And basically that her sister had seen her like have multiple miscarriages. She had miscarriage. I think it over 20 weeks and the most recent one with twins. And her sister saw her and she was like,

I just can't let you like do this again and offered to carry her kids. And I think that's like not something someone says to you. And then you're probably like, but don't say that if you don't, if you don't mean it. Like don't that's like a don't, don't just throw that out there if you don't mean it. Right. But she meant it. And she did it. And she said it was interesting because she was talking about how she had,

her daughter and then she wanted more children and I think her sister was like I think I'm like I'm okay now right I'm done right I'm happy to have done that for you but I don't think I want to do it again and then she started the process of looking for someone else and it was just a lot more difficult to find and more expensive and like just a lot more to the process of finding someone who you don't know to carry for you and then I think she went back to her basically towards the end, she inevitably, like, did agree to do one more. And I don't know if she, she knew she was going to have the twins at that time. It seems like an even bigger ass. Totally. So I thought it was such a beautiful story. Like, you imagine a way that would bond you

to your sister in more of a way than carrying their baby. Totally. I do think, I mean, on the surface, without hearing any complications of, you know, it really does sound pretty awesome. Was this, did she go into her fertility journey? Was it like she had a specific issue that required a surrogate or she had just tried everything else and she was like, let me just try this because nothing else is working. Yeah, she had just tried everything else. She had multiple miscarriages and then one that was really far along and it just didn't feel like she was going to like her sister was basically like, I can't watch you to just keep

doing this. Right. Oh, yeah, totally. And yeah, agreed to character. for her. And it was it was just like a really amazing story. And just to hear out even like when she's telling the story you'll hear she still brings up like all these emotions of all this like trauma that she had gone through to even get to that point. Yes. And another thing we talked about, which I would love your perspective on is like, and I think we've touched on it in the oversharing episodes,

is this idea of like people who stop reaching out to you after a while to like, it's sort of like there's people who check in in the beginning and then like kind of assuming it'll be resolved soon and then it kind of gets to a point where those people just kind of assume that it's like not working out so they kind of avoid you because they don't want to make you uncomfortable but then you kind of feel like you're just isolated and like that no one's there but I can also understand the other perspective

so I was I thought it was a really interesting topic to just you know, lightly touch on with you. Yeah, totally. And it is hard to know. I mean, I think you can always reach out. And if the person, they'll give you their vibe, right? Like, they'll give you the vibe of like, I'm interested in talking about this. Let's set up a phone call or let me call you or just kind of start getting into it. That would be my perspective is I don't think, you know, we've talked about ways to reach out that isn't like, are you pregnant yet? You know, like that might not be the best way to do it. But I think you can do it in a way that's like, hey, just wanted to catch up. Right. And then like leave it open and it and see if the person wants to share with you.

Exactly. Because I do think asking directly is like you could catch someone at a moment where they're not feeling like talking about it and that could be annoying. But just letting someone know, my door's open. I think is always a good way to go about it. Totally. And I mean, it's hard as the person who's going through it, I think, to reach out to other people. people to like say you need like you'd want them to help you or to reach out to you because it is the kind of thing where it's like you don't always want to talk about it but you don't want to have to ask yeah in some some ways you know what I mean it's sort of one of those things where it's like you can't win yes and I and I do wish and I guess this is for you or for myself or anyone who's

going through anything is I think you know the people that are always going to be there for you Like you know the people that like anytime day or night, if you're like, I need to talk or I want to talk, like, yes, let's do it. Right. So I think, you know, on the other end of it, if you're the person on the receiving end of like, you know, let's catch up or how's it going or whatever to just, you know, I want to embolden people that you know your people. And I think when you find those people that you know, like we said before, the past is a predictor of the future. if they've always been there for you and they've always been interested and leaned in and wanted to hear, then I wouldn't hesitate to send that message like, hey, are you around to talk or I need to talk or, you know, that type of thing. But I get the feeling of like I want to feel thought of and

cared about and all of that as well. Especially when it's been a while. And then you're like, I don't want to be this person who's just like, like who's like a downer all the time. Yeah. But I also need support. So it's sort of like a, again, it feels like a bit of a catch. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can see that. But I don't know unless you and you have to have some introspection, but unless you're

like daily every single day like calling and talking about like, you know, kind of depressing things, then I, that's what friends are for. Right. No, that's a good point. I feel like what you, like if you have the self-awareness to think you could be too much, you're probably not too much. Yes. Yes. Exactly that. I agree. So that's a good lesson to cake from this conversation. And again, just another really inspiring story. And it made me wonder, would you carry my baby? I'm just kidding. Okay. You can cut that. If my uterus wasn't 45 years old,

I would like being pregnant. So if I know, your uterus doesn't age. So honestly, I like being pregnant. I do. If your doctor says I'm a good person to do it, let's do it. I'm down. We'll talk after this. I'm just kidding. All right. Well, let's get into the episode and let's bring Emily on. We are back with a very special guest, Real Housewives of Orange County's, Emily Simpson. Emily, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm such a big fan of the show and of you personally. So thank you so much for coming on. I'm like. Like I live for Real Housewives in Orange County. I feel I've watched since like season one.

So it's very cool to have you on the show as a fan and also just to hear your story. Like one of my favorite storylines of yours on the show is really like you and your family and your kids and seeing all of that. And then I recently, you know, I didn't even really, I guess until I was going through my own fertility journey, didn't even like pick up or like I guess I probably saw it in an early episode and didn't think about this. But I came across an article or clip. and about you talking about your kids and that your sister had actually carried them. So I was wondering if you could just like take me on your fertility journey sort of like all the way from the beginning like when you first sort of thought, decided that you wanted kids. I'd love to hear your story.

Okay. It's a long story. So feel free to jump in any time. If you have questions or anything, it won't bother me. So I married Shane when I was 32. And I was a lawyer at the time. We worked together. And I had always wanted to have children. That wasn't something that I was like contemplating. Like I just knew I always wanted to have kids. I remember even being young and like, did you ever doodle like names of like what your kids would be? You know what I mean?

Right. I remember doing that like, you know, on a spiral notebook like Ashley. And so having kids was just always something that was just going to happen. Anyway, married Shane. He has to two older girls. So when we got married, they were seven and two. And I remember having a conversation with him because we got married very quickly where I was like, do you want to have more kids? Because if it's no, then that's a deal breaker for me. And he said that he would love to have more children as many as I wanted. So I was like, perfect. As many as you wanted. Love that. Yeah. As many, well, he changed that later. But at the time, I do remember him saying that. Like, as many as you want, it's fine. So anyway, we get married and we start trying to have kids immediately because I'm 32. I've graduated from law school. We have a house. Everything's good. And I get pregnant very quickly within just first getting married. And I remember being so excited and then having a miscarriage early on. And then getting pregnant again, having another miscarriage. And by the time I had the third miscarriage, I was like, okay, this is like I this is, like I this is a, this is

there's probably issues, you know, because I, I have family members like my mom had told me that she had had a miscarriage and then had my sister and me and my aunt had had a miscarriage and then had children. So the first one or two, I was like, okay, it happens. It's happened to a lot of women. By the time the third consecutive one came around, I was, oh, I was just defeated and I thought, okay, now there's a serious problem here. Like, this is not, this isn't good. So I actually went to a fertility doctor in Utah. We were living in Utah at the time. And this is what I think is very important for women, too, is you have to be very comfortable with your fertility doctor or your specialist or whoever you're working with. I just never felt a vibe with him. And I never felt like

I got clear answers. And I never really understood what the plan was. I felt like I had a lot of appointments and spent a lot of money. But I felt like every time I walked away from the appointment, I was like, I don't, I don't really know what the plan is. I don't really know what we're doing next. So I became very frustrated by that situation. Do you know what, was there a reason they were giving you or like, what were they telling you? You know, I had every test imaginable. I can't remember the names now, but I did, you know, sonograms and the hydrosanograms and the blood work and everything. that you possibly could have done, I had done. And there was no clear answer, which is very

frustrating. So then my mother-in-law, who is in, we were living in Utah, but Shane's family was in California. And my mother-in-law's Persian. And she had a connection with a doctor in Beverly Hills, who was very well known. He was a fertility doctor, a specialist. And so she made an appointment for me with him. So Shane and I ended up traveling from Utah to Beverly Hills, meeting with him and he suggested in vitro. So I went through the whole in vitro process. I did the egg retrievals. I actually did a couple egg retrievals in Beverly Hills. In Beverly Hills. And then we did the implantation and we did a boy and a girl. And I actually made it to four months pregnant. And then I lost them. It was at Costco.

And I was living in Utah at the time, and we were at Costco shopping, and my water broke in one of the aisles. And because I was so early along, of course, I knew immediately that this is not good at all. So Shane took me to the emergency room, and I lost them, ended up having to stay the night in the emergency room, ended up having to have a blood transfusion because I lost so much blood. It was a horrible ordeal. I remember being so just devastated at the time that I remember telling him. I was like, I can't do this again. Like, I'm done. I'm tapped out.

Like, I just can't. Yeah. I'm sure. You just 20 weeks? Yeah. Around that time. When you think you're clear, I'm sure. Right.

And there was, I had several ultrasounds by that point, too, where there were heartbeats. There were strong heartbeats. Everything was great. Everything looked good. No reason to worry at all. Can I ask your previous three miscarriages that you had, how bar along had you been? You know, those were always, those were very early. I don't remember exact weeks, but I probably like five weeks, six weeks.

And then there was actually, I think the third or, I actually believe I had more than three before I went to a specialist. Sorry, my kids are older now. So I'm recalling this all. But there, I might have had four miscarriages before I. actually went to the specialist in Utah. I think it was the fourth one where I actually made it to eight weeks and there was a heartbeat. And that one was a really tough one. But they'd all been early. So after I had done in vitro when I lost them around four months, that one, that was just, that was really difficult to recover from. That was devastating for me. I just felt like the world

crashed in. I was living in Utah with Shane. I had no family around me. And I, I just, I remember laying in bed just, I don't know for weeks probably, not getting up, just being like, I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go from here. You know, it was a really, really dark time for me. I had to go to therapy. I made Shane buy me a horse. Just because, yeah, because I needed like, I needed some form of like something to look forward to. I'm sure, yeah. Was it, was there a feeling of like, how did he take it? Was there a feeling of like your experiences were different because he had already had his own biological children? Was there like...

Yeah. That's a very good question. I'm just going to be honest about that. I felt like I was kind of carrying the load of the emotions alone because I felt like he already had two children. So he just kind of went on with daily life and he had a custody schedule and a visitation schedule with them and everything. So he just went on with life and picked them up and did things with them and still was a dad. I felt like I was grieving alone a lot. And so it was really a difficult time for me very, very hard.

I'm so sorry. The horse actually was very therapeutic. It was just, I realized that my mind just revolved around having children, how I'm going to have children, how am I going to do this, what's going to happen 24-7. So having a horse taking writing lessons. I mean, I know it sounds, it might sound stupid to someone, but it gave me, it gave me somewhere to go. It gave me like an animal to be connected to. I get emotional.

Every time I talk about this, I'll be 80 and talk about this. I'll still cry. So did they give you an explanation at this point for anything? No. I mean, I went back to my doctor in Beverly Hills. I probably did more tests. I don't even remember exactly what was done at the time, but I know that there wasn't really any way to determine the reason why. I know he did tell me that possibly there was an infection that caused the placenta to burst.

Like maybe there was a little infection, which caused a small hole, which made the placenta open, which made my water break and made me go into labor. I mean, I never knew exactly what it was, which is such a frustrating thing as a woman, especially, when I've always been the kind of woman that has had goals and met them. Like, I went to college and I graduated and I went to law school and I graduated. And it was like, now I want to have kids. And then not to be able to just fulfill that goal. And it made me feel so helpless. And I didn't know that feeling because I've always been able to accomplish anything that I wanted to. But to not be able to have children was there aren't even words that can articulate that helpless feeling of, not being able to do that. Yeah. And IVF, I feel like gives you this sense of like, okay, I can control it or I can do this or, you know, if you get embryos, then you feel like you're in the clear when a lot of the times it's just, there's a lot more to it than that. You really, even with that process, which feels like it gives you more control, doesn't necessarily do that and can feel even more devastating because you're like, I control. Like you said,

I'm kind of like that too, where you're trying to control as much as you can. And then there's really nothing, absolutely nothing that you yourself can really do. Exactly. That was very challenging for me. So after I lost them, that was in 2011. And it was right before Thanksgiving. And we were still living in Utah at this time. And my sister and her husband came to Thanksgiving at my house in Utah. And I was talking about what had happened because it had just recently happened. I lost them maybe just a couple weeks before Thanksgiving. And I was telling my sister, I was like, you know, I don't know where to go from here. I guess I, you know, I guess I'll try again.

And she said to me, I'll never forget. We were in the kitchen together. And she said to me, please don't do that. There's something like your body's not responding. I don't know what it is. But she said, I'll do it for you. And I was like, are you for real? Because be careful of what you say because.

Don't say it if you don't mean it. Right. Right. Like that's like, yeah. Right. So I was like, are you being serious? Like, is this something you would do? And she was like, yeah, I would totally do that for you.

So can ask a few more questions about that? Yeah. Sure. Does your sister have kids of, of her own? She does. She has one daughter. And so her daughter was around three or four at the time that she had offered. And she had had a very normal, easy pregnancy.

Okay. So she, she mentions that it was at this point, I mean, obviously it's only two weeks. since you lost. I'm sure you weren't thinking about anything. But had you thought about surrogacy in the past or at any point up until when she had mentioned that? You know, maybe because I am such a planner. I did always say to Shane when we'd have these conversations, I'm like, well, what if it never

works with me? Like, what if I can just never have kids? Like, maybe we have to use a surrogate. Maybe we adopt. Like, I needed a plan A, but I also needed a plan B and a plan C. Like I needed to know that once we exhausted this option, like there was this option. And once we exhausted that, there was this. Like I was bound and determined to make it happen.

I just didn't know what pathway was going to lead me to having children. So when she said, I'll do it for you. I was like, okay, if you're being serious, then this is like, this is what we're going to do. And so shortly after that, I did reach out to my doctor in Beverly Hills. his name's Dr. Najmabadi. And I said, you know, my sister offered to be a surrogate. And he was like, great. That's better.

He said, great. Okay. Yeah. I have heard, I've just anecdotally from like speaking to some doctors that sometimes if people are a little scared of having like the someone who's like that genetically related to you because they might have the same issue that you have. But it sounds like your sister, I guess, already had a very easy pregnancy. So maybe that was why they felt like that wasn't an issue.

issue. Right. I think, I mean, he, I don't remember what questions he asked, but clearly he asked if she had had children already. And yes, she had. And then she did have to come out and meet with him and he did all the testing with her. And I don't know. I don't remember exactly, but he said, this is the better option because she's already had a successful pregnancy. And you haven't. So if you want to do like a risk analysis, I have a higher chance with my sister as a surrogate than trying to. myself again because I've had multiple loss, multiple losses, and she hadn't. Oh, definitely. And then that's when I just had to get over the fact that I just physically couldn't do it.

And I just had to be okay with that. That just wasn't going to happen. It wasn't in the cards for me. Because I've had so many people ask, well, isn't that weird for you? Like, don't you want to be pregnant? Don't you feel like when you're pregnant, you bond with the baby? I mean, I get that. but I didn't have that choice.

That option, yeah. Right. Right. So was that like a morning period for you of just kind of like, I think that there's always this point in even in any part of a fertility journey of like, whether you're morning, even just having to do IVF or just not having and not happening in the way that, you know, you're sort of taught to believe that it'll happen where it'll just be like a fun night and then everything works itself out.

So I mean, but there's a bunch of different levels. And so like the idea of not carrying yourself was that. that was that hard for you to come to terms with or you just kind of just felt like you couldn't do this again and it was just seemed like a very clear path. Yeah, I think it was disappointing. But like you said, when you're going through IVF and you've had multiple miscarriages and at this point, I think I'd been struggling through this for about four and a half years, five years at this point that once my sister said that she would be a surrogate and my fertility doctor was like that's the better option, then I just, I went with that. And because at the end of the day,

the end goal was to have a family. And so whatever steps I needed to take to get there, I just had to be okay with that because it wasn't a traditional journey by any means. So at this point, it was like, okay. This is what we're, this is what we're just going to do. Were you worried about your sister changing her mind or like, was there like legal? Was there still legal paperwork with with the family member, I don't know how that works. Yeah, there was. Actually, in California, to have a surrogate, it's very, it's very complicated. I had to have a contract. She had to have a contract. She had to have an attorney. I had to have an attorney. And then the contract had to be in place. I believe my fertility doctor had to have the contract with both of assigned by independent

counsel prior to implantation. So it was, it was complicated. And I remember the contract, Oh my gosh, I think it was like 75 pages or something. I mean, it was crazy. Wow. I remember going through it and there was, I mean, it's very detailed. I remember it was like, you know, the surrogate won't, you know, ride horses or jump on trampolines. And my sister was like, are you kidding me? And I was like, I don't know. It just has to be in there. So just sign it. Right. Yeah. I'm sure there's all. I mean, I've heard also like there's there's things where, you know, sometimes if people have a surrogate, they try to maybe be a little bit more particular about what they're eating or was. That kind of micro stuff, especially as your sister where you have such a level of comfort. Was there any of that of like maybe you shouldn't dye her hair or something? I don't know. No, not at all.

Like my sister and I, it's just the two of us and we're super close. And she's just, she's very healthy in general. She's just a healthy person. She eats very healthy. She works out all the time. So I didn't feel like I needed to micromanage her in any way, shape or form. I just let her proceed through the pregnancy. you know, there were, she actually, I might be jumping ahead, but she actually carried Annabelle

and Annabelle was born in 2013 and then she carried both of my boys. So she had all three of my children for me. And, you know, I just felt like for her to carry my children, that was such a gift that the last thing I wanted to do was micromanage her in any way, shape, or form. And at the end of the day, she's my sister. And these are, this is her niece and nephews. So, like, she was very invested in like taking care of herself and being very diligent about the pregnancy. So I didn't worry about any of that at all. That's great. So you, they did the implantation.

And then was that it was just successful or how did that go? So they actually the first time. So they actually implanted a boy and a girl the first time around. And she was, she thought for sure she was pregnant with twins. And so she went to her first ultrasound. And now my sister lives in Ohio. So I can't go to her, her, you know, prenatal appointments and everything with her. So she goes to the first appointment and there's only one embryo. And she was devastated for me. She called me crying. She was like, I was so sure it was twins. I thought that they both took. And I was slightly disappointed a little, but just knowing that there was one healthy one there. But the interesting thing was because, we implanted a female and a male and then we only had one.

We didn't know what the sex was. So that was. Okay. So, you know, I mean, yeah. I mean, actually it was kind of interesting to actually have a surprise because, you know, when you do in vitro and you pick the sex and all that, there aren't a lot of surprises. So this was actually turned out to be a surprise. So when she did her 16 week or 20 week or whatever ultrasound, then that's when we found out it was a girl.

So it seems like you transferred to, like. like a couple of times. Was that just because you wanted to like maximize the chances of at least one sticking or is it because you did want twins? No, it was because I wanted to maximize obviously what I remember asking the doctor like, how many should we implant? And he would never do more than I don't remember if it was two or three, but he was very conservative.

And so we did a boy and a girl hoping that both took. And then we would be done with the process. Because I think if I would have had a boy and a girl, we probably wouldn't have gone on to try to have more children just because it was so, it's such a just emotional and journey. Like, exactly. But then, you know, when Annabel was born in 2013, I just, I wanted to have more children because I always wanted to have more than one. And so we ended up shortly after she was born. born because she was around two when the boys were born. So shortly after she was born, we wanted to do the process again. My sister actually said no initially. And I, and I respected that. I was like, I get it. You gave

me one child. You gave me a daughter. And, you know, like, that was an amazing thing. So then I had to reach out to, like, I don't remember what it's called, but something that my fertility doctor put me in touch with where you have to match with a surrogate and they pick you something like that. Right. And so it was such a daunting process because with my sister, it was so easy. I mean, she was like, I'll do it. And then she had a baby. And then now I'm like, oh, like someone has to interview. Yes, like someone has to pick me and I have to, you know, like show family photos and pictures of our house. And I don't know. I was telling my sister about this process. I was like, there's a lot of, this is really complicated. Like I didn't know it was like this.

I got really spoiled with you. And then a couple of days later after that conversation, she came back to me and she said, you know what? I'll do it again. I just can't imagine like someone else doing it. Wow. Yeah. It's so amazing. You guys must be very close.

Yeah, we are. It's just the two of us. We grew up in Ohio. I like to say that we're definitely Gen X. Like we grew up during that time period when like parents basically just like left you to just raise yourself. And so that's what we did. Did this make you even closer?

I can imagine like the bond of like, you know, her carrying your children and you. Yeah. I mean the connection there. Absolutely. And then, you know, people would always ask me like, is it weird? Like, does your sister not want to give them to you? And I'm like, are you kidding? Like she's, she's like here.

Well, she also gets to be in their lives, which is like another kind of, I guess, difference between a regular surrogate and someone who's going to be there. She's carrying her niece and nephews. Exactly. So it was never an issue for her. Like she was happy to hand them over at the end. And obviously they have a bond and she sees them regularly. I mean, as regular as you can, she's in Ohio.

But, you know, she comes out to California. We go and stay with her in Ohio. And so they know that she's their aunt, but they all three kids also know that she carried them. I made that known from the very beginning. Well, that was going to be another question of mine. Yeah. I'll get to it. But also, so the second pregnancy was that you put in, so you put in two again?

We did. So when we went back, we put in two boys, two male embryos. And I remember the doctor saying to me, you have several female embryos that are all of good quality, you know, because they rate them. Right. And they give them A's and B's and first report card. Right. They get their report card.

And so I only. had two male embryos. And I remember him saying to me, this is your, this is your only shot to have sons because you don't have any more male embryos after this. And he also said, I wouldn't do an egg retrieval on you anymore. Because I think at that point, I was 38 or 39. And so I was like, okay, well, here's our, here's our one shot for boys. Did it feel like the second time was like a little bit less pressure because you already had Annabelle or it was still kind of you were not. No, you know what? The second time was a lot harder. Annabelle was very easy. My sister had no complications. The boys, it was more difficult. She had a couple scary instances where she went into labor a little bit.

I don't remember what that's called. I've never carried a child clearly. But there's something where I don't know. And you have to take Potocin to get you to stop having labor. I don't know. But do you know what I'm saying. Yeah, there were complications. Yeah, there were a couple scares. And I remember it was, so she was pregnant with both boys. It was around the December time frame. So they were born in February. So she must have been like far along, like six, seven months pregnant at that point. And it was Christmas time. And I remember I was so scared that I literally laid on the couch in the fetal position. And I could not move. I couldn't talk to anyone. I couldn't eat anything. I couldn't watch TV. Because she was at the hospital.

and I was just, I just remember laying there and just praying, like saying, please, please let them be okay. Please let them be okay. Please let them be okay. And thank goodness that it worked out. She took, they gave her potosin or whatever, which stopped the contractions. Right. And then she ended up going on to carrying them to 35 weeks. And then they were born at 35 weeks.

And they were okay when they were? Yeah. I mean, they were small. they were Luke was born first and I think he was five pounds and he went home with me when he was born. Keller was a little bit smaller. He was born second and he had to spend two weeks in the NICU because he had trouble sucking. Okay. For some reason. So, and I tell you, Annabel was two. We're all in Ohio. All my kids were born in Ohio in February. All three were born in February. So I don't know if you've from the Midwest, but can you picture?

Ohio. Yes. In February. And I have a two-year-old at home at my sister's house, a newborn that I just brought home, and another newborn in the NICU. And it is like blizzarding and like 30 below zero or something. So two-year-old and then twins. Wow. That's that's that's, I'm sure. It's own different kind of workup. It's a, it's a blur. People ask me how I did it. And I'm like, I don't, I don't have any idea. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. I know. I know. I know. I I mean, this is such an incredible story. It's so, I mean, it really gives a lot more color to, you know, on the show. You talk about how you really want Annabel to have a sister and how like that meaningful,

that bond was for you. But I think this story really gives it like makes me understand anyway a lot more about like what you mean by that. But do you feel like at the end like, I mean, now that now that it's all like in the past, do you feel like there's like a space from it and you kind of like almost forget and you just be like you have these like healthy kids or is there a feeling of still maybe like having a little trauma from the whole thing? You know, I would say that the majority of time I just look at my children and thank my sister. Like I always think about my sister. Like they're here because of her.

And like I'm so happy that I have them and I look at them and just think like their little miracles. But, you know, the trauma that I went through definitely has subsided. I would say when they were first born and they were all small, I had a lot of anxiety. I always thought something was going to happen to them. I just, I always felt like they were going to be taken away somehow, like they were going to get sick or they were going to get ill. Or they, I think because I had so much trauma from so many losses for so many years that it was so difficult to be able to wrap my brain around. the fact that they were here and that they were healthy. I just, I had a hard time with that. I just had anxiety all the time, worried about them. Right. I mean, like, because it feels,

I could totally understand that. And then it was there a kind of age where you felt like, okay, like this feels a little safer, like they feel. Probably like here. Yeah, probably like Annabelle being 10 and being sassy and like talking back to me all the time. But like, I don't even think about it anymore. I'm like, oh, you're a lot to deal with. So funny. Now I'm going to ask you a personal question. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. Did you, did you pay your sister? The first time, no. She did she did it. She just did it for free. But I paid for all her health care and costs and maternity clothes and prenatal. And so anything that would be out of pocket for her, I covered. So it didn't cost her any money at all. The second time I did pay her. Yes. Okay. And then. We're like, and for the first time, I'm just wondering for anyone who's listening, who's thinking about using a, you know, a family member or friend or something like that. Were the cost because you didn't have to pay her? Were the cost just like mostly like legal fees? Like with, I assume there's still costs in her. Yeah. I mean, even if you're not paying her directly. Yeah. Even though the first time around she she did it for free, quote free, it costs a lot of money. I had to pay for, I mean, all the doctor's visits. I for her to travel here. because she lived in Ohio. So for her to go to my specialist, I have to pay for her to come

to Beverly Hills. And you didn't live there either, right? No. So we had to cover that. And the attorney was expensive. The contract was expensive. It just, it just adds up. Did she have any hesitation or share any kind of interesting experiences with you about being pregnant, you know, even around her friends in Ohio with like your baby? Was that was that something she encountered any issues? with. No, I don't think so. But she would say that her husband, because obviously her husband had to be involved, it was like, you know, we had to make sure he was okay with the situation. Right. But she said, her husband's funny. He kind of reminds me of Shane, but she would say anytime they would go out and someone would be like, oh, you're pregnant. Like he would always be like, yeah, and it's not

mine. It's some other guys. And so she was like, would you please stop telling people that? Like, he thought it was hilarious to always tell people that like she was pregnant with somebody else. this baby, but, which I, you know, I think it's good that they just had a good, you know, time with it. And, you know, she, she had really healthy pregnancy. She bounced right back afterwards. She looks great. So, I mean, I couldn't have asked for a better surrogate. That's for sure. That's great. Yeah. And Shane was he on board like this whole way or you were just kind of like, this is what we're doing? Well, I mean, clearly I was the, I was the driving force in all of it. No, he was supportive of everything. I mean, he had to be. We had to get his sperm. So he had to go to the doctor's visits and he had to go in like the room and everything. And I know he hated it. But, you know, he did everything he had to do. And then a lot of people asked me was Shane present when the kids were born because they were all born in Ohio. And he actually was not because he was in Utah with Annabelle and then California with the boys. But what we did was put.

him on speakerphone so that he was technically like there when they were born. You know, it was easier for me because I could travel out early and stay with my sister and be there for weeks before her due date. And that's what we did each time. I would go early. And I would stay with her house and, you know, I would go to her doctor's visits and I would take care of her. And then that way when her water broke and she went to the hospital, I was there. But, you know, Shane has a job here and his kids were here. So he didn't have the luxury of being able to just hang out in Ohio waiting for her to give birth. So he would be on the speaker phone during the actual delivery. And then he would buy a plane ticket and then he would fly in the next day. So right. I mean, all this fertility stuff takes so

much time and energy that I feel like people are doing the best they can, especially with like full time jobs. Right. Is just so hard to do everything and be at everything. So that I totally get. And like, did he and you, did you have any issues kind of connecting to the kids when they were, when they were born because you didn't maybe like see her, like live with her or open or him. No, you know what? That actually was a concern for me. I did worry about that. I actually worried that I thought, okay, so this baby is born and they handed to me.

You know, I didn't carry the child. So am I not going to feel anything? Is it, is it going to be hard for me to just be like, this is my child? It wasn't. I remember when they handed me Annabel, I literally just melted. I was just like, this is my child. I love her. Like there was an immediate bond and the same with the boys.

I never felt anything where I felt as if I had to struggle or try to bond with them. I just immediately felt like they were my children. Shane, I don't know. I can't speak for him. He always says he's not a baby person. So I think that for him, he just does the, he goes through the motions with babies like he's great he feeds them in the middle of the night changes diapers but Shane's definitely like the fun dad that bonds later when they get a little older and they walk and talk yeah then then he's

like then he becomes very like he becomes very bonded to them like Annabelle is a daddy's girl no doubt about it and if you did do it again would you use your sister or are you like kind of done no I mean I did want to have a fourth there was a time period there where I kept trying to talk Shane into a fourth I think my sister was tapped out. I don't think she would have done it again. So I would have had to find an alternative route as far as a surrogate. And so that combined with Shane not being on board for a fourth child. It was too much for me to figure out and to push. And so I was also like in my 40s by the time I was ready like by the time the boys were old enough and Annabel was old enough that I could picture a fourth. I was 40 something by that point, probably like 42 or something. And Shane was like,

because he has two other kids. So he had five at that point. He was like, I'm done. I have five. Like, that's a lot. And my sister was like, I had three year kids. I'm done. Sorry. So for me to be able to have that fourth child, I would have to convince Shane, get him on board and find another surrogate. And I mean, that became so that was like. Sounds like a lot of work. That was very over. Plus take care of the three I already had. like it was way too much for me to figure out so totally yeah so I had to just let that I had to let that one go wow I mean this is such an incredible story I mean your your kids came out beautifully I've seen them on the show they're all thank you so it seems like it was all fully worth it in the end do you have any do you have any last like thoughts or words of encouragement for anyone who's

listening who's going through multiple miscarriages or it's just not happening for them and they're on year two or three or four or five or you know anything that helped you i know you were talking about the horse before but anything else um you know i i also not only did did i get the horse but i also took the utah bar exam too because um because i needed something i needed somewhere else for my mind to go so i think that's that's a big thing that like that i would tell someone if you're going through this and your your head is stuck in it and your mind is stuck in it and And every day, it's the first thing you think about. And every night it's the last thing you think about before you fall asleep is to find things

that can give you some kind of mental release, you know, whether it's a class or therapy or a friend group or a wine night or a hobby or a dance class. Like anything that can help your mind just release from constantly thinking about that. I think that's a big help. And also, I think I would give advice to people who are the friends and family. of someone going through that. What was really hard for me is I felt like, now I get emotional. Sorry.

It was a hard time for me because I felt like people didn't know what to say. So they said nothing. Right. And for me, it would have been better and it would have been more helpful to people for them to say, I'm so sorry this happened to you. Are you okay? Do you want to talk about it? Because I felt like everyone just didn't know what to say to me.

So they just didn't say anything. And then I felt weird because I was like, well, this just happened. It was really traumatic. And then you feel like you're all alone because you're like, right, right. Yeah. Right. Well, I always like to say that there's like a almost like a like a critic, like a point. There's like when you're in the beginning of trying and it's not working, people feel bad and they're asking on you, checking on you in a while.

And then once it gets to like a certain point, they don't want to ask because they don't even really think it's going to happen for you. So it feels like you're just kind of like, okay, I guess it's just me in this alone now. So I totally relate to that. Like what would you? And I think there's a lot of people that feel like they don't want, like you said, they don't want to say the wrong thing. Right. So they don't say anything.

What would you suggest someone say? I don't know. For me and this is just me personally, I can't speak for all women going through this. But for me, it was more of like, I just wish that more people just ask me how I was. And we're comfortable just having me cry and say this really sucks.

You know? Because I just felt like I just felt like I. didn't have anyone to talk to about it. Yeah. No, I've definitely felt the same way. I think it's, it's a hard subject and it's, um, it can feel really isolating. So I think that's great advice for anyone who's listening who's going through it or knows someone who's going through it, more importantly to help them. Thank you so much for coming on. Is there anything I didn't ask that you feel like? No, I feel like I talked a lot. No, this was great. Thank you so much for being so honest and sharing the story. I know it's going to help so many people. It's helped me just

hearing it. And you're so amazing. I can't wait to watch the new season this summer. Oh, you're going to love it. I promise. It's a look. It's good. I'm excited. It's going to be a good distraction for me going through this whole thing. Yeah. That's what you need. Distractions. Yes. And that's it for us. We'll be back next time on Baby Steps. Baby Steps is produced by me, Jordana Abraham and Shannon Sison. Editing by Jorge Morales Pico. Guest booking by Ali Friedlander and be sure to follow at Everything's Fine on Instagram.