Oversharing - Baby Steps: Deciding To Become A Mother On Your Own Ft Amanda Freeman

Episode Date: November 24, 2023

Jordana sits down for another episode of Baby Steps, presented by BetterHelp, and this week she’s joined by the founder and CEO of SLT fitness, Amanda Freeman, to talk all about finding a sperm donor to get pregnant on your own. They dive into Amanda’s path to motherhood, including how and when she decided to go the solo route and visit a sperm bank. She also gives tips for what you should be looking for in a donor, how much information the bank will actually provide, and just how many vials you need to purchase. Plus, she tells the story of subsequently having a second child with her longtime partner, and shares the biggest lessons she’s learned about balancing work and family life.  Thanks again to our presenting sponsor, BetterHelp! Visit BetterHelp.com/BABYSTEPS today to get 10% off your first month. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Baby Steps presented by BetterHelp. I'm your host, Jordana Abraham, and on Baby Steps, we're exploring the various paths to parenthood that lay ahead when starting a family doesn't come easy. With the help of weekly guests, I'm taking you on my own fertility journey and asking the questions that need to be asked. Trying to have a baby, especially when you experience obstacles, can be a huge emotional and mental challenge. And that's why I invited BetterHelp to join us as the presenting sponsor of Baby Steps.

If you're thinking of starting therapy, I recommend giving better help a try. It's entirely online, convenient, and suited to your schedule. Just go to BetterHelp.com slash baby steps today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, HELP.com slash baby steps. Therapy can give you the tools to navigate the difficult transitions in life, and the path to parenthood is definitely one of them. My guest today is Amanda Freeman, founder and CEO of SLT Fitness, to talk all about finding a sperm donor to get pregnant on your own.

But before we get to Amanda, as always, here's my sister. and the host of the oversharing podcast, Dr. Naomi Bernstein. Naomi, welcome back to the show. Thank you for including me in this. I'm excited to hear about this next guest. Yeah. So the next guest, I loved, loved this conversation because basically she's the founder of SLT, which is in New York.

It's like a really great reformer Pilates studio. She went to Harvard Business School. She's just like a super accomplished woman. We were really basically talking about how she had her daughter, I think, seven or eight years ago. She says in the show, we actually recorded this on her daughter's birthday. But she had her daughter at 38. She was single. And a big part of what we talked about that I know you would love and that I think that is really important. She talks about, you know, before having, making this decision to have this baby on her own, she talks about like grieving the

life that she thought she would have. And that was like a really, that was like almost the hardest part of it for her. Totally. Yeah. You kind of said in your mind. what you think your life is going to turn out like and then adjusting to something that just feels different and accepting that, you know, and allowing yourself to be sad. I don't know if that's what she talked about, but what did she say about grieving? Like, yeah, well, she talks about, you know, she had her 38th birthday and she was just really miserable. Like she was feeling disappointed that she hadn't met someone yet, but she also wanted to have a baby. And I think, you know, like to get to the mental hurdle for her of having the baby. She just had to like mourn that that idea of what her

life would look like, that she would, you know, that she would do things maybe in the traditional way, find someone get married, have a baby. And instead she really just took matters into her own hands, which I thought was kind of amazing. And I think a lot of this fertility stuff is really a lot about mourning the way you thought it would go. Yes. Yes. You know, like mourning the idea that you have to be doing all of this stuff is almost more, it's almost more upsetting to think that you, you know, the story of your life isn't going the way you planned it than going to all these appointments and making these decisions. Yes, totally. And I love that she's talking about it, like from the other side. So when you're in it, there's almost that moment of like,

am I going to give up on the perfect fairy tale story that I thought was going to happen? Or am I going to just keep trudging through to try to make this thing happen in the exact way that I thought it was going to happen. And I'm really interested to hear what someone has to say who kind of went through it. And at some point said, okay, we've got to take a left here and do this in a different way. And now she has, you know, a daughter. And I, you know, I can only imagine that she's madly in love with her and thrilled that she decided to do what she did. Yeah. And another really inspiring part of the story is that she, you know, she has her daughter, but she also, she talks about this reconnected with an ex. And now she has a son with him. And so it's kind of like, I think that people think

when fertility, a lot of single women may think, you know, if I have a baby on my own, I'm now eliminating any, any chance of having a life that I previously thought I would have. But you could totally have it. And I think she's sort of a prime example of that. You could have it in a different way than you imagine, but you could still have it all. It's not the order that you wanted. it in. Totally. And I think people sometimes play the tape forward so far that they feel like when they're making a decision that they have to then accept like a whole series of imaginary events in their mind that are going to happen as a result of this decision, which is clear in this person's case that that's not what happened. She, you know, you make this one decision and all it means

is that you're making this one decision. It doesn't mean that then, you know, even like for you, if you decide, okay, I'm doing IVF, that doesn't mean that when you want to have a second baby, that you're necessarily going to have to do IVF. Like, who knows what's going to happen? You're just making one decision at a time, but we try to, we want to be so in control

that it feels like we think we have to pretend like we can play the whole thing forward based on a decision that we're making, which is just not true. So hopefully it's a good reminder of, you know, get unstuck, make your decision, and that's it. And then just let the universe do its thing. And then when you have to come to another decision, you'll do it. But you don't have to have the whole pathway paved on day one. Exactly. I think that's a great way to look at it. So I'm

excited to get into the episode. I think you guys are going to all really enjoy it. We are here with the founder of SLT and Stretch, our very special guest, Amanda Freeman. Welcome. Thank you. Great to be here. I'm so excited to have you on the show. I was just saying I had interviewed you about SLT, which I am like a religious fan of, I think maybe eight to 10 years ago for the Betches.com website. So it's very cool to be like full circle back with you here today in person. I love it. Both of our businesses were babies. Yes. Exactly. And so I'm I remember it's funny because again, this was like 10 years ago. And I remember hearing that you had a baby on your own. and talking to my friend who was also like an SLT fanatic,

and we would just talk about how cool that was. And I think it was very inspiring because as like just single girls in our 20s, it was like just another example of a different path that you could take to motherhood, even if you didn't find a guy in the sea of awful New York City men. Yeah, it's not that unlikely that you don't find a guy in New York. But I would love to hear about your journey because I know we have so many. listeners who are young single women who really want to be moms and who want that no matter what. And so I think it would just be really helpful to hear more experiences of people who have done that.

And just like what your path was to motherhood. So if you want to just start by telling me, like when did you first think about the idea of having kids potentially on your own? Like when did that come to you? Well, even to back up more, I would say growing up, I was not the person that dreamed of my wedding. I was the girl that dreamed of having a lot of kids. I used to say when I was younger that I want six kids with six different men. I mean, I don't know where I got that one, but I seriously did. I never focused as much as some people do on like, I want to get married.

I want to be a wife. So that is my backdrop. I always knew I wanted children. I really got obsessed with it when I was about 37, 38. And when I turned 38 is when I had my like breaking point, which I think most women have to have in order to actually go do it on their own. Because I think as much as I was comfortable and not so focused on getting married, it's in all of our minds that there is an order of things and that you have children with someone,

right? Like that's just like tradition and how we think. And I think in order to break past that and be truly comfortable, with having a child on your own, you have to first mourn the life that you thought you were going to have. Because if you don't get through that, then you're going to struggle with living the life that doesn't look like you actually thought you had it. So when I was 38, I remember my 38th birthday. My family was taking me to Sunset Beach, honestly. And I remember like saying, I don't want to go and crying and being like, I don't want to celebrate.

this birthday, like, not happy with where I am in life. You know, I was single. I was doing well in my business, so that was great. But, like, you know, I'm the kind of person that doesn't focus on one aspect of my life too much. I like to have it all going on at once. I'm not one of these, like, one track mind. Yeah, I'm not that at all. No matter how busy I am at work, I still eat. Like, those people who are like, I was so busy I couldn't eat. I'm like, what, you can't do two things like I don't understand. Right. So I never, I can't just be happy in the one thing that's going well if the other stuff isn't going well. And I'll actually, there's one other story I feel like I should tell. So I went to business school and when I was in business school, I took a class

that was called women building businesses. And I was not a women's person at this point. I was 25 when I went to business school and I wasn't into like the women's clubs and all that. Now I weigh more M, I just kind of thought it's like, okay, you know, why do we have to separate ourselves so much? But I took this class because it was the one class where you could do a business plan as part of the class. And the class was basically a woman CEO who was running a Fortune 500 company would come in and speak to us. And she would give whatever talk she meant to give. And then at the end, we would get to ask her questions. And in every Q&A, somebody raised their hand and said, what is slash was your work life balance like depending on where they were in their career.

And the way I remember it, one of my best friends remembers it's slightly different. But the way I remember it is that every single one of these women, when asked about their personal life, started crying. Oh, my God. And my friend said it wasn't every single one, but that was my takeaway. And it was either because they never had kids or they don't speak to the kids that they had or they never got married or they didn't, you know, their marriage was a mess because they gave it no time.

one of the women said that she had decided early on in her life, in her career, that she was going to do less, comma, better. So that she was going to be really good at the things. She was going to focus. Yeah. Focus. And so she focused on her career and not her personal life. And at the end of the class, the last day, we went around the room with reflections. And I raised my hand and I said, this class has made me less ambitious.

If it, if running a Fortune 500 company means that I am going to be standing here 30 years from now crying because of all the things that I didn't get to do, I don't want to do it. I said, I have, from here on in, my philosophy is more, comma, worse. That I want to do the things, all the things. Right. Medium. Yeah. And be like, okay at them. Like, just be good.

Like, try to be good. don't try to be amazing or great or the best or anything. I just knew I wanted the things. And I'm a big, like, live life with as few regrets as possible person. And so this, you know, all these things like went together. And so I was 27, let's say, when, when I was in that class, because it was probably my second year, 26 or 27. Fast forward. Back to the 11 years later, when I'm 38, I have a great career. He's probably in the back of your mind this entire time. I have like somebody made me actually for my baby shower when I eventually got pregnant. I had one of these like cocktail part.

Like it was like a party. It was at night. It was a cocktail party. It was men and women. It was like a rager. A cool baby shower. Yeah. And somebody made me.

She actually worked at Facebook and Cheryl Sanders had written her book. And lean in. Yeah. Yeah. And there was like something she said, you know, like this person framed one of Cheryl's comments. And then my like more. like more worse comment and I have it like in a frame in my house right now. So this is my guiding principle, the more worse always that, you know, when I get mad at myself for like half-assing

something, I'm like this is your goal. Like your goal is to half-ass everything. Because you, but I think it's kind of inspiring because it's like just do it. Yeah. And then you'll figure it out. Right. Instead of feeling like you have to be like the best at doing it. I also want to say, clearly you're not trying to brag, but you're talking about Harvard Business School. Yes. Yes. So clearly you're on like a a very ambitious career track. And I think that's so relatable. And it's funny because I remember like Googling at a younger age, like female CEOs and like, you know, when they had kids and if they were in relationships

or if they ever got married or like anyone famous like even famous like actresses just trying to see like to feel like you could have it both ways. And most of the people you find are like a little behind in one area. Totally. Yeah. Or like it's not what it appears. Right. You know, you read all these things. Oh, you thought they were happily married. They were living separate lives. For sure. So, yeah, I think it's hard to do. Some people say, like, you can do everything but not all at once. You know, they've got all these philosophies, but I want it all at once. So if I want it all at once, it's got to be like, I can't be that good at any of them. Like my, one of my children prefers my caregiver to both myself and my boyfriend to put him to bed. And always, like, I'm second sure. I say like I'm second favorite for both my kids amongst the three adults in the house.

So I'm good because on average like we're all basic like we're all second favorite here. And everyone's like, are you not so upset that like he'd rather your nanny put him into bed? And I'm like, no. Yeah. And then I'm more worse things. I can go back to like work. You know, like. Right.

You know, there's pros and cons of it all. But you just can't be everything. To everyone at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. But you could be a little bit to everyone at the same time. I mean, I try my hardest, but at a lot of things. Right.

I actually really like that because it kind of gives you this sense of you don't have to, again, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be, because I think everyone, especially for things like having a baby on your own or, you know, starting a business or anything like that, I think there's this feeling or everything has to align perfectly in order for you to jump into like making that choice happen for you. Yeah. And that really holds you back because then again, you're just not going for it.

Totally. And like you don't know when your career is going to be at its, have the best opportunities. You don't know when you'll be able to get pregnant or not. Like you can't control all the things. And I am a big controlling person. And fortunately, there are ways to control getting pregnant for people, you know, if at worst, adoption, you know. But you can't control the timing of it all. So you do sometimes have to like take actions into your own hands.

For sure. when the timing doesn't align. So I'll go back. So yeah. So now you're, I'm crying at my 30th birthday party. They made me go to sunset beach. I was happy I went.

I remember the sunset that night. But that was my real like breaking point where I was like, that's it. I'm just having, you know, I'm not waiting for someone to fill that void to then enable me to go have the child that I just know, I've always known I want to have. And like now 38, like, now that I'm. a lot older and people are having babies in their mid 40s now. I'm like, oh, I was kind of, I kind of jumped the gun a year maybe or two. But at the time, I was like, that's it. Like, I'm not waiting any longer. I can't wait for, you know, Prince Charming or whatever it is.

And so I actually had a friend who was a little behind me in similar thinking. And we went to go to Tony Rob, to like a Tony Robbins thing in person. Yeah. I mean, like when you're kind of, kind of vulnerable. If you're feeling lost. Yeah, you're like looking for inspo or something to help guide you. I went to a Reiki healer. So I think that I'm totally on board. But, you know, let's see what sticks.

I just did like a journey. If you ever want to talk about that. And I'm the most controlling person on planet Earth. So it wasn't for me. But anyway, so we went to a Tony Robbins thing. And she like left that thing being like, okay, I am doing this. And I actually, this is maybe TMI, but like, I was on a medication that you cannot be on to get pregnant. So it took me like, I had to wait three months.

She went with me to this thing and was like, that's it. I'm doing this. And the whole sperm bank thing is super fascinating. It's like online dating. But so she was like three months ahead of me at this point. So she actually went. I met with a bunch of people who had done this. There were a few women that I knew who had had babies on their own.

own. And I take them to coffee like a job interview. And one of them had told me, oh, you have to look at this one sperm bank because you can see pictures of not only the guys when they're babies, which is what most sperm bags have, but you actually see their adult photos. And it's like, everybody's a cute baby, but not everybody's a cute adult, right? She's like, once you see this, you will go look at the other sites and be like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I now need to know how this turns out. Right. So my friend actually took a first pass at looking at the site and she kind of whittled it down for me. Oh, for you. Okay. She was like so organized. It's like someone taking your, your like dating app. Yeah. When your friend takes over and is like, let me do this for you.

So she narrowed it down to like, let's say eight that she thought were the best. I went through her eight. We picked our favorites. And some people pick based on like IQ. Do they give you like education, all that stuff? Very general. They're not going to tell you what college they go to because in these days, like you can find these people. Right. And this is really supposed to be anonymous. But you do get like GPA and what they majored in. You like see family diseases, all those things.

But, you know, we both were kind of like, we want to pick someone who we are kind of attracted to. Like you would in. Yeah. Right. In a regular dating scenario. Yeah. And like we're both Jewish. And so we were like, we should probably have no one Jewish because there's all these like Jewish

diseases. Yeah. Then we can avoid all that stuff. And then we were like, what if we pick the same person? You know, like, what are we going to do about that? Fortunately, we picked different people and she was like doing great with her healthy child. But she was three months ahead of me? Was there a part of you that thought that would be kind of cool to like have your kids have

a sibling? Totally. Have siblings. Yeah. And I've had friends like since I've had, because I still have some sperm. I've encouraged another friend of mine who was thinking of doing it. In the end, like, she's not doing it. But I was like, you should use my sperm.

Like how great for your child. child who's going to be alone. My daughter has a brother. So like it's even where I'm like, have them all connected. Yeah. And I'm like, your child will now have like, we'll all be family. How great will that be? I mean, I was very encouraging of it. I think she thought it was weird. I think you're like, what if one feels more fortunate than the other and they're like jealous and all that stuff? So that didn't end up happening. But you basically like buy the sperm. Yeah. So we had a, we had a joint account. So we're pretty confident they thought we were like a couple. And you, the like, Good ones go really fast. So she was so good. She would like call the sperm bank. She ended up on the phone

with one of the guys once. Like that's how friendly she got with like the people at the sperm bank. She's like one of those people that like charms everybody. And she's like, I want to talk to him. I want to hear his voice and like know what he's doing. And she ended up on the phone with him, which is like so outside. So outside the lines. I think of this stuff normally. So we picked it out. I was like, this is the one. Of all of them there was one. And I think probably because he reminds me a similar look. People tend to be like attracted to people that like look like them. Not that I was like, he looks like me, but I was like, he's my type. Granted, he's like 20 something and I'm 38. So we just bought it. You know, you buy like, if you can, you just buy like 10 vials because you don't know how

how many kids you're going to want to have. I don't know how many times it's going to need to try. Like I still have it just in case. And each vial is like for one shot essentially. Yes. And the place I ended up going, though, they actually had me come in two days in a row. Like, while you're ovulating. So I actually would use two vials each up, but not every place is like that. Can I ask what the cost is of like, is it like just a direct purchase?

Do you have to go through insurance? Is it like, no insurance, at least not for me? There was like, let's say a few hundred dollar membership on the site. Okay. And then it was probably,

I think it was around $1,000 a vial, but then there's storage. Right. So like these things are kept in like freezers somewhere. Storage fees, yeah. So like I'm still paying storage. my friend will, every like year she'll be like, you owe me $400 for like this year's storage because we like still have it going. Right. But I mean that even like it's interesting just because we had,

you know, a man on here who's had a child on his own and it seems like the process for to purchase eggs is a lot more expensive. Obviously it's a lot more like intensive process to get those from women than it is for men. It's like a surgery versus like a fun, a fun hour. Exactly. A regular day in the life. So that's good. I think that's kind of like encouraging to know probably. Yeah. I'm sure that wasn't. Prices have probably gone up. There's probably inflation. Right. And I mean, but this was like, this sounds like a top of the line sperm bank that you could see the adults. Yeah. Right. So. Yes. I mean, there are ones. Again, we chose a little bit based on looks, which some people were like, I would have chose based on intelligence. But like, again, it's like, I was

kind of like, I don't want to look at my child and be like, I chose that. Like, you know, it's like a different thing. And. Not that I'm that superficial, but I've grown up around a lot of smart people. And I think sometimes being like a genius makes you very sad. Right. I do not. Well, you want a little bit of everything, right? In an ideal world.

And I want my child that I'm like, I don't know. I was like, this is one of my priorities, whether you like it or not, I'd like a child that I think is cute. Right. I think most people, whether they'd want to admit it or not, feel very similarly. Totally. Yeah. So then you go, you've got to figure out your like. fertility situation. And I actually found out that I had cis on my ovaries that were like

benign, but that I had to get removed. So I did have like a procedure, which again, like delayed me behind this friend a little bit. And I was, you know, coming off my medication. But was there anxiety and feeling like it needed to go faster or were you fine with the case it was coming? Once you make a decision, you kind of want to get on with it. Right. So yeah, that was like a little annoying, but it does get you more comfortable. Like at that point, you're really. comfortable. Right. And you really want it to happen.

So like my other friend was she had made such a split decision and just went and did it. And she was a little hesitant. And then the first time it didn't work. Okay. And I was like if you're going to be upset, I'm like it's kind of a blessing that it didn't work because you could see a reaction. If you're relieved that it didn't work, maybe you're not ready. Yeah.

And if you're disappointed, keep going. And that's what happened to her. For me, once I was able to start doing, we did IUIs, both my friend and I, so not IVF. This was like squirt, turkey baster, you know, feet and stirrups. And my first two, I forget if it's three or two now, my first two I had what they call a chemical pregnancy, so where you get pregnant for like a week. For two. That's tough. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's like, it's what, it's not a miscarriage. it's not like you've been pregnant for two months. It's like... Right. You haven't had that long to get used to the idea of being pregnant to where it's like maybe potentially more heartbreaking. Totally.

And then when people get pregnant naturally, they don't get to see a doctor for like months. I don't think a doctor wants to see you until like nine weeks. Yeah, like two months or something. With this, they're monitoring you like every day. Right. So you know, even when you have a chemical pregnancy, you often know you're probably going to lose it because they know how strong it is. Like they can test your...

Right. And they'll give you people. progesterone. So like it's not shocking when these things usually happen. And then the third time worked. And what they say is like if after the third time it didn't work, they would have told you to choose a different sperm donor because there might have been something about the way you mix. You know, there's this chemistry thing in real life that like now is out of the picture. So fortunately the third time it worked. I did have to take progesterone because I had like the low levels and you'd have like spotting and be like nervous. But I.

I was very happy. I had a pretty easy pregnancy, and I enjoyed it. I ate a lot of hala and drank a lot of lemonade. Those were like my two things. Yeah. Peanut butter too. And now my daughter has a peanut allergy. So you figure that one out.

Interesting. I mean, so many kids have these these days, but like I was obsessed with peanut butter, so I don't really understand it. Yeah. I wonder. Do they say that has an effect? No. I mean, I was also obsessed with peanut butter with my son and he doesn't have the allergy.

But you think if someone ate it like, in the womb, like they wouldn't be allergic to it. So did you want to do I, like, IUI was just sort of like your first, like what made you do IUI instead of IBF? It was just like less invasive and less expensive. I'm like very needlephobic. The fact that I even got through and like pain averse. The fact that I even got through labor is crazy. So you never froze your eggs. No. Okay. It also wasn't. So until around that time, I think egg freezing wasn't that sophisticated. And when people went to third. thaw eggs out. I don't think they worked that well. I remember I had a gynecologist that was like,

he was kind of against it until he felt like the technology was, he thought it was false hope. Okay. Because people would put their eggs in the freezer and then find out that they weren't good. The technology did not get sophisticated until like 10 years ago. Right. Now it seems like it's great. Everywhere. Everyone should do it for sure. Yeah. But no, I hadn't done it. And I did, I was going to go to IVF if I had to. I think they would have had me try like six IUIs before IVF. Okay. When you're trying the way I was at that, at my age.

I think if I was 42, they might have been like, go right to IV. Okay. And did insurance cover any of that? No. Okay. No. I think when you're like, yeah, when you're trying on your own, I think insurance cover, certain insurances cover it once you've had like six failed attempts.

Like, there has to be a build up. before you get to IVF or something. Yeah. Or to be covered. Like the first stuff is like out of pocket. Right. And yeah, I mean, I've worked at like startups for the, you know, for most of my career. And we don't have the good insurance.

You know, we have like the basic insurance. Yeah. Because that's the insurance when you were employing like 10 people. Yeah. It's like expensive and not that good. This episode of Baby Steps is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's almost the end of the year. And this time while it can be exciting can also be really stressful.

And a lot of people. feel a lot of sadness and anxiety about it. And it's not just the stress of finding gifts, but it's also the stress of seeing your family, of it starting to get cold, a little seasonal depression. But adding something new and positive to your life can counteract some of those feelings. And therapy for me is always something I go to when I'm feeling anxiety or stress around anything, whether it's the holidays, winter, or just like things that are going on in my life that are not going as I planned. I've been to therapy for over eight years now. I've been to therapy for over eight years now and nothing has helped me quite as much as therapy has overcome whatever

obstacles come my way. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find your bright spot this season with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash baby steps today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash baby steps. So you get pregnant and then like how did that feel like going through that when you finally were pregnant? Was there a sense of like just excitement or like were you having any issues like processing that or? I thought it was fun and exciting and I didn't feel that lonely.

And I think people would expect or I didn't feel lonely at all. I think because I also have had like a busy thriving social life. It didn't really stop much of what I was doing. I remember my like baby moon. I just asked like this random guy friend of mine. I wanted to try this hotel in Nicaragua. I mean, it's so random. Awesome.

But I wanted to check it out. And like this just random guy friend of mine. I was like, do you want to go to Nicaragua? He's a surfer. I was like five months pregnant and we went to Nicaragua. And I just read the only thing I had to worry about there was like the food eating something that like was bad because I was in Nicaragua. Right.

So I was careful about what I ate. But otherwise like, it was great. Yeah. And someone who works for me just had a baby on Monday. And she was like, I just want to have this baby already. I just remember being like, keep this in me as long as possible because I had so much to do. Right. I was not in the rush to get the baby out where like most people are.

I was like, I'm not ready. I won't be, you know, like my life, like there's still so many things to do. I also did not take a maternity leave. So it wasn't going to dramatically change my life. at all. Like literally probably, I didn't go to the office for 10 days. And that includes like the day I went to the hospital. And you're in the hospital for three days.

You were physically recovered enough to. I mean, to like walk to my office. Yeah. I mean, literally I like lived on, you know, three blocks up from here and I work four blocks down. Right. And I'd bring like my pumping stuff. I did the breastfeeding for a very short period of time. I say the world is black and white when you're, when I was breastfeeding.

and the minute I was done, it was like color again. Like color came back. I like hated it, but some people love it. Like that's many people's, most people's experience that I talk to is much more in line with yours. A friend on one shoulder who was like, I say she was like the angel of breastfeeding. And then my sister on the other shoulder being like,

why are you doing that? My friend would be like, let me buy you things to help you. It's so great. And then my sister would be like, why are you even doing that? Like she had a baby and then like went out to dinner that, you know, like left the hospital and was like out at dinner. with her husband that night. I'm not kidding. Like when you don't breastfeed. Right. There's much less of

a need for you to be there all the time. Yeah, you might have like a diaper on, but you can go to dinner. Right. And I was also, I was running my own company and my COO had resigned like two weeks before I had my baby. So I didn't have the luxury. And I was happy. Honestly, I don't love like change. I like like normalcy. Right. So I was kind of happy to have the normalcy. I mean, otherwise, other than just like pumping. in the office. Yeah. I feel like you were a like quintessential New York businesswoman. Yes. Having the baby emailing probably from the hospital like the whole thing.

A hundred percent. And then you, the other joke about giving birth in New York is like, I had a list of things to do from the hospital. One was like send an announcement, whatever. The other was like signing up for this one class that your kid can start when they're like six months old. And you got to put yourself on like the wait list of the day they're born. And I swear I like made that call.

Like I'd like to put. Flynn on the list. And then at first, for that first, like, 10 days, I tried to do the, like, work from home or, like, have my nanny, a baby nurse, bring my baby to my office for me to feed or whatever. And I did not like that mixing of, like, the two worlds. It was, like, pretty early on where I was like, when I'm at home, I'm not going to work. I'm going to deal with the baby. And when I'm at the office, I'm going to, had to pump, but I'm not, like, bringing my baby to the office. I needed that separation. Other people like the only way it works for them for various reasons is if they can like bring the worlds together. I still like them kind of a part.

That makes sense. So you can be sort of fully focused on each area. And work from home is like never my thing, still not my thing. So it makes sense that I would be like that back then. But it wasn't overwhelming to feel like you had this baby on your like you were doing it on your own. I assume you had help. I mean, yeah, I was going to say like so one of the reasons that I felt comfortable having the baby at 38 is I was finally financially stable enough to know that like it wasn't going to restrict having this baby was not going to restrict me too much. And I think I needed to know that too, that my life, not restrict in like this, it sounds terrible. But I wasn't going to have to like sacrifice too much of what I was already doing. I was financially able. It wasn't like I couldn't

join the gym now because I had a baby. I could do both of the things. And that was important to me. Like, I need to feel in control. That's like the theme of my life. And I felt like I could, I was in a great, a good position for it. And you had the resources to be able to work. Yeah. So I was able to get a baby nurse and she was amazing. I said she was my like wife the whole time. She was like truly amazing. I kept her forever. Okay. Literally she left after 15 months. And I was devastated when she did. 15 months. She like turned into a nanny. basically. But she was a baby nurse. That's the longest I've heard. Oh my God. It's crazy. And I'll tell you another funny little anecdote. So I had this couple that I was very close with and

they had a baby like a few days after me. And we took, it wasn't CPR. I think we took a breastfeeding class together like me and this couple and they're awesome. And the lady who was like teaching us, she kept giving me so much latitude. And like them, she'd be like, oh, you, because you're on your own, like you could do anything. Like not, we're not criticizing anything you do. And then to my other friend, because she had a husband,

she'd be like, well, you should, you know, she was way stricter with her. Yeah. And I was like, we, and my friend and I still joke about it. Like we, this woman and I are in a mommy group. I'm still in like a mommy. I say it's like mommy therapy group therapy group that we've been in for seven and a half years because all our kids are eight.

Oh, wow. And we still joke about it. We'll be like, we keep trying to think of her name, but like how mean she was to them and how like anything I could do is like perfect because of my situation. Right. Did you feel like people like maybe not just her, but generally, do you feel like people sort of like had a different attitude about you and and having a baby than maybe other people? I mean, I think most people probably felt sorry for me, which I don't want like the pity and

I don't want to be like, oh, that sad person who like didn't find someone and had to do it. on their own. Some people are. I think some people are like, whoa, like there's still a stigma, but the stigma is way more gone today nine years later. Like I got pregnant nine years ago or I was doing this nine years ago. It was different. It was less common. Now I know a lot of people. And so there's more of like a club and it's more just like bad luck. You know, it was like, oh, she just had bad luck. She didn't meet someone. It used to be what's wrong with her. Well, that's the case with like IVF also. Like it used to be like this kind of. You know, it was like this kind of like secret stigmatized thing. And now it's like, seems like everyone's, you know,

on social media, it seems like everyone has had some form of that. Yeah. And people are like skipping even like, it used to also be needed to like try naturally first than IUI. Now I feel like, and I'm actually surprised. I was with like someone, a friend over the weekend who told me she's trying to get pregnant like in her 40s. And I was like naturally. Like you're trying to do it naturally. Like what are you thinking? You know? Right. Now it's like an obvious first thought. I'm like, you're not taking anything. You're not like, I was like, see a doctor. Are you sure? Yeah. I was like, I don't know if you have a lot of time to just see if it happens. Right. Well, that's kind of the thing. It feels like there's these, you know,

there's these two senses of you don't want to alarm anyone, but then there's all, is this sense of like, you know, having been through a fertility process, like the earlier you start doing medical interventions, the better. Totally. So you have Flynn. And then are you, are you, are you, are you, dating at that point? Like how is, is dating different? Like, did you feel better about dating? Because I kind of took the time pressure off. Like, how was that for you? So I went on one date that was like a real, like first date. And someone had introduced me to their brother, to this guy. I forget who actually did the date. And I had, my daughter was like two months old. I'm not kidding. Like really young. And we went to the polo bar. And it was very fancy. Did you like let him know before that you have.

before and I was like, I wonder if he knows. He probably knows. Like, I know his sister. Right. She probably mentioned it. Yeah. But it wasn't, I don't think it was her that set us up. Like, I forget. I think maybe we met or he was a real estate broker and maybe he showed me spaces. Okay. And he was dating people when I met him. So we go out to dinner and I'm wondering if he knows and he knew. So he like brought it up right away. I didn't bring it up. He brought it up and it was totally easy and good. But context for this whole thing. So that was like the only date I went on like in this context. So in 2003, I started dating a guy. I dated him for five or six years. Six years. We broke up in like early 2009. He's a very like noncommittal type of person, just like indecisive in general. Very New York. Yeah, like I decide what we order to eat, you know, that kind of thing.

We were on again, off again, but mostly together for like six years and then we broke up. And I joke that like we've never dated again, but we actually started like hanging out. I'm not going to get too graphic, literally right around when I got pregnant with my daughter. Really? So when I got pregnant, he actually asked me to take a paternity test. Oh, my God. Yeah. But it wasn't his.

So for the most part, I like was basic. He was now like back in my life when my daughter was born. He was like really into my daughter. It was bizarre. And you were like kind of dating. Yeah. I mean, I went on this date. So like we couldn't have been like exclusive.

Yeah. But we didn't live together. at that time, but he would like come over every day, see my daughter, like, come in the morning sometimes. I'd go to work. He'd go to his apartment where he worked. And then I'd come home from work. He'd come over. Like it was like this very interesting thing. He kind of came back in my life right around this time. And it was almost like he felt guilty that he wasn't actually the father, but he was so into her. I mean, he is my daughter, like flash forward today. He's my daughter's father. And then we actually... Sounds like a rom-com. I mean, it's crazy.

It's crazy. And then do you remember Zika? Of course. These were the days of Zika. And I was like, unsure if I would ever want a second baby or not, but you avoided certain places to go on vacation during Zika. And so we took, he came with me, my daughter and my baby nurse. We ended up going on a trip. We went to Hawaii for Christmas.

And I ended up getting pregnant, like naturally. Were you trying? Not at all. Wow. And how old were you at that point? He would joke that it was basically a mac. because there's like we know the exact one time it was it's only possible that it could have happened and my daughter was one like she was one in two months because it was

Christmas and she today's my daughter's birthday so you're like 40 today's my daughter's amazing happy birthday what a what amazing episode to be recording eight years ago but yeah so so I end up getting pregnant again he made me take a paternity test and I'm like I didn't do anything else like what is going on here less romcoming I mean it's very very I'm like your family is telling you to do this, aren't they? But, okay, so it's unplanned, clearly. Totally unplanned. Okay.

How did he feel about it? He was a little stressed. I mean, this is a person who like doesn't like to commit to things, having a child's very committal. Like he never bought a car. He never bought an apartment, a house, like nothing. Worked for himself, like, you know, all the things. So I think it freaked him out.

And then we were so complicated. Like, I live with my daughter in one place. He lives separate. We had no intention of living together. just because of it. Right. But I ended up like it was totally, it worked out. Were you happy?

Yeah. I mean, I was wondering if I, I didn't want an only child. I am so lucky. I have a brother and a sister. My parents both died like 20, 20 and 22 years ago, respectively. I'm so lucky to have my siblings. So I wanted my, I didn't want my child to be an only child. But was I going to have a second child on my own?

I did not know. Right. So the fact that this happened was like, okay, I'm having a second child. Great. Here's a decision made. Great. We lived close to each other. I'm trying to think like who moved when.

I think he moved down to be closer to my daughter and I. And then I had my son and I needed a bigger apartment. So we moved, but he did not move in with us. So he lived separate. I lived with the kids and a caregiver. And again, he would come over in the morning. Maintaining his own place. Maintaining his own place.

then we'd split up during work hours or whatever. And then I'd come home from work and he'd come back and we'd have like dinner with the kids. And then COVID, and that was how it was. And then COVID happened. And we left the city. I have a house in Amagansett in like Long Island. And we all moved into that. And then so we lived together.

And we ended up staying 18 months. So we didn't come back to the city until like a whole other school year, not the next school year. not the next school year, the one after. And when we move back, we're like, are we looking for an apartment together? Or what are we doing here? Right. Well, you've already been living together for a point in a house.

Right. You know, we were just joking about a New York City apartment. Like are we? Right. Can you handle living together in a much smaller space? Yeah, in like a box. And so we're like, what are we like, we got to decide what are we looking for?

Like, and so we ended up, we said like if we had a apartment, if we found a four bedroom, we would live together. And if we could only find a three bedroom. I'd live in the three bedroom with the kids and he would get a one or two bedroom close, you know. So we found a four bedroom and we all live together. I told you the bedroom situation is fascinating. I get the master. He has a separate room.

My kids share a room because we also have, I have a live in because I work, you know, I work a lot and I need the flexibility. Like Saturday I'm actually going to watch someone teach a class in New Jersey. And just, again, I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford. it and that was a priority for us. And so, you know, we're one big happy, messed up, you know, I think it's amazing. I love it. I love it just because it's so non-traditional and it works so, it seems like it works so well for you. And I think it's just inspiring to do your own thing, not feel like you need to get married, not feel like you need to, you know, wait for someone to have a

baby. And when did he adopt your daughter normally? Or he's just kind of like, she calls him dad. She calls him dad. When she was young, she called him Michael. And then it switched. I think probably when, no, she probably only started talking around when my son was born. I was going to say, she started calling him daddy. I don't remember when. And at first I was like, I'm a very literal person. And I'm very into like the truth and like precise about things. And so I at first didn't want her to call him daddy. But then obviously I went with it and they're like she, he is her dad. Like and he's known her since she was born. Oh yeah. I mean, he was in the hot. It came to the, you know, he was in the hospital waiting outside when she was being born.

And it's a little complicated now with like my son and my daughter of like what's the different, you know, like. And there's like Mike's relatives, my boyfriend's relatives do see my two children slightly differently. Like one is their actual grandchild or nephew and one isn't. So it's not like simple. I'm sure. But it's not horrible. you know, there are worse things.

And everyone's always like, does she know the situation? And you're not going to like, pound it into someone's head. Like how often can you tell someone like, here's the deal, know who you are? And I told her at one age. And then everyone,

I was like wondering, I don't even know if she remembers or like gets it. And then I actually listened to her tell a friend. Like the story, she'd be like, my mommy had me. And then daddy came, you know, daddy came into her. lives is how she tells it and mommy and daddy had archer and i mean she doesn't know about sex or like

right how babies are made so she seems to get it in theory i actually need to talk to my like experty person about how i like when i go into it again right yeah when i like when you re-explain the whole situation well it seems like it's almost like a cleaner situation than if you had you know dated her father and then he was maybe like you know what i mean if you had a contentious or bad relationship. This seems like a much clean, like I come from a family where like both my parents have kids from their previous marriages and that's like a real mess. Yeah. So this seems like a lot cleaner to me. In some ways. But like that's more normal. You know, it's more traditional. Yeah. Where you can point to a genetic dad versus like this is a difference. Like she thinks I had

her alone right now. You know, she doesn't understand like how it works. For sure. But yeah, I mean, that's why in some ways like it's easier to. raise your child by yourself than with another person because, you know, as silly a thing as like, you don't have to compromise. Right. Like I was almost like, oh shit. Like now I have to compromise. Now if I want to make any move, like I need to rent it by someone. Right. Or anything. So obviously like I'm going to say the pros outweigh the cons. But there is something to be said for being fully in control of how you want to raise a child. Right.

I mean, you see a lot of couples break up. That's kind of the big benefit, I think. It's like you get to unilaterally make all the decisions and you have like the full custodial rights to. Right. But I went and complicated it because, you know, now I, you know, I want to. I can't like take her or what am I doing with my son, you know? Right.

So there's, that's why with other, with friends who are like debating it and I know they want like a, a man in the situation so much. I'm like, just so you know, you're pretty controlling and you're going to have trouble compromising. And, you know, so there is like, that's one of the benefits of single parenting. Okay. So it sounds like you, you know, to anyone listening who's thinking about doing this, it sounds like you are wholeheartedly like saying it was, I assume, one of the best decisions

you've ever made, right? Oh, yeah. You do not regret bringing life into the. this world and, you know, obviously children are a blessing. I mean, this time more than ever, we can all appreciate that. But I now have several friends who've done it. And everyone is in a slightly different situation. I think one of the things that women have trouble with is they think that if they go and have a baby on their own, they're completely throwing in the towel on ever meeting a guy. Right. Like they're like, that door is shut. No one's going to want to date me.

I think that's the fear. Yeah. And I don't think that's true. I mean, I just, you just heard my story. I knew him before. So that's like people would say, but oh, but he's like your ex-boyfriend. Like, it's different. But I have a friend who like met someone, like when she had a six month old or something. I think her baby was maybe even three months old or something. And then is with him and has a baby with him. I have, you know, several friends who they're still single, but they date and they're happy. And it's not going to be all good times, but nothing is all good times. Even if you're with someone, it's not all good times. Right. But I don't think any one of them really. would ever say they regret what they did. They were, you know, they did the best with the hand that they

were dealt. Right. And I think that like, again, dating or not dating, like you do get a benefit of, you know, people date with kids all the time, divorce people date with kids, widows date with kids. And I think the benefit here, I mean, to me is like, again, there's not an external additional person to deal with, which again, makes things a little, might make things easier in that way than if you were dating with kids with an ex that was very involved or, you know, dealing with other baggage. Yeah. And I have another friend who considered asking like a guy friend for his sperm and like doing that. And I thought that was going to be.

That's super complicated. But that's another option. You know, there are friends who are like, we both want to have kids. Let's just co-parent. Like that movie. Yeah. He's friends with kids. Have you seen that?

Yeah. I mean, I love all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's still very non-traditional, but it's less so in like major cities. And now there are just enough examples of like that it works that I think more people are seeing it,

more women are seeing it as a viable option. And I love you brought up, you know, how expensive it is for guys in the reverse. I think it's, you know, I've seen more guys do it, which I love. And I just met a guy who he wanted, he was planning to do it. And then he met a woman and he was like,

this is what I'm planning to do. And he went and did it and she stood by him and like they're together. But like he adopted these kids and it's working in like that situation too. I've never heard of a single straight man doing it. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I think I've talked to like another person who's like 50 and single guy and I'm looking at him kind of like, are you up for making the lifestyle changes?

Right. I think it's so amazing that you came on here and shared the story. thank you so much. I feel like, again, it feels like normalizing. I think it's really inspirational to, you know, take your own life into your own hands. And I think just wanted to circle back really quickly just about what you said about like the grieving process and then accept like the acceptance of, you know, where you're at in life and try. Because I feel like that's, it's kind of like that with all fertility struggles. It's like you don't think of your, the story in most people's lives is like, I'll get married and then I'll have a kid and it'll happen very easily. And then I'll just like,

have these healthy kids and it'll be fine. Yeah. And I think coming to terms with not having the traditional path, whatever way it may be is probably the hardest part, like you said, for anyone. It's so hard. Yeah. I mean, I have a friend who's going through an adoption process now and having watched her get to this place is so hard.

And I think the key is to keep your eye on like the goal. The prize. Yeah. Keep your eye on the prize and be like, my goal in the end is to end up with a child. And there's a lot of ways to do. it, but you do have to like push past the like your vision. Yeah. I mean, people, you have to like start a new vision board. It's like focused on this new reality and not what you always pictured. And it can be as

just as happy or even better than you might have imagined the old one to be. For sure. And from everything I've heard from people who underwent any of the stuff, it feels like in the end, once you have the baby, you don't really think about how you got there that much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you? Where can they find SLT? Where can they find stretched? SLT is at SLT, NYC on all the social media platforms. Stretched is at at stretch space on them. And then I am at Amanda Hope Freeman on Instagram mostly because I'm old and set in my ways. So am I. Well, thank you again. And we'll be back next time on Baby Steps. Thank you.

again to Amanda Freeman and our presenting sponsor BetterHelp. I hope this episode has been a help to you on your path to parenthood. If you want to get started with therapy, I highly recommend trying BetterHelp. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switched therapists at any time for no additional charge. Visit betterhelp.com slash baby steps today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash baby steps. Betches.