Oversharing - Baby Steps: Finding Courage Through Grief Ft. Sarah Herron

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

In this fifth episode of Baby Steps Season 2, host Jordana Abraham sits down with the Bachelor's Sarah Herron for an intimate conversation on her journey through IVF and the heartbreaking experience of pregnancy loss. Sarah shares her story, recounting the profound loss of her son at 23 weeks and the subsequent waves of grief that engulfed her. With raw honesty, she reflects on the emotional and physical toll of pregnancy loss, highlighting the importance of seeking support and finding solace in community. From grappling with the complexities of mosaic embryos to the unexpected joy of discovering she was pregnant with twins, her story serves as a beacon of strength and encouragement, reminding us all to remain open-minded and courageous in the face of infertility. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome back to Baby Steps. I'm Jordana Abraham and I'm joined once again by my big sister, clinical therapist, Dr. Naomi Bernstein to introduce this week's episode. All right. Happy to be here. So who did you have on the show this week? So this week's episode, we feature Sarah Heron, who was on The Bachelor. I know we both watched this season.

We were big fans of the show and her specifically. Do you remember Sean Lowe's season? She is, she was one of my favorites. It's first of all, Sean and Catherine live in Dallas. So I'm always like interested and I kind of keep tabs on what they're up to. So I love them as a couple. But I loved Sean's season. I hope she's over it.

I think she's moved on. She's moved on. But yes. It's been 12 years. Can you believe that? That's crazy. Yeah. So hopefully she's moved on.

But I loved her. I always thought she was such a sweetheart on the show. So I'm glad that you got a chance to talk to her. So what's going on with her? Yeah. I mean, Sarah is someone who's overcome so much adversity in her life and her pregnancy journey was no different. She told such a powerful story of, you know, she struggled for a couple of years to get

pregnant. She had diminished ovarian reserve and then had to do egg retrievals. And then, you know, finally got through that phase. She got pregnant on her second transfer with her son who, she had to deliver at 24 weeks and did not make it. And just to hear her tell this story was just like such a powerful, a powerful story about like overcoming and dealing with grief and and really just like figuring out how to move on after such a terrible tragedy.

You know, she talks about the days and just like the weeks after having, having delivered her son and just like, you know, that whole grief process, figuring out how to move on, eventually she does do another transfer. And now she's pregnant with twin girls. Currently at this very moment. Yes. At the time of our interview, which was a few weeks ago, I think she was 22 weeks. So she's past the point of her last pregnancy. And I'm so happy for her. We talk about everything, including like becoming pregnant again after having dealt with with this loss. of like a baby that you felt so connected to. And then trying to stay connected in this new pregnancy while still honoring,

you know, the child from your last. And it's just, it's very, um, you know, as someone who's gone through pregnancy loss, I think it's,

there's similarities, but there's obviously a lot of differences when a child makes it as far as her son did. Mm-hmm. So she really just talks about like, you know, it's uncommon, but it's not that uncommon.

I had spoken to Emily Austin and apparently like one in a hundred 60 births are born in this way. Wow. Which is a really horrible statistic and you don't really hear that much about it. So I'm so thankful for her for sharing this journey with us. And just hearing her story, I think, is really inspirational. It's really hopeful. And she's just a great person to follow.

She's so strong and she's overcome so much. And she really can tell you like the steps, the concrete steps that it took her to be able to overcome something that was just really, really awful. Yes, and I feel like just for the listeners to hear not only, you know, the, you know, a lot of the episodes, I'm sure there's a lot of details on what you have to do and the processes and kind of the, you know, the more concrete aspects of fertility treatment, but to hear someone who's like, okay, and this is how you, or this is how I dealt with the emotional part of this journey.

And I'm curious to hear kind of what she said she did, not that there's any right or wrong way to grieve, but just whatever her way was is really interesting for the listeners to hear how to go through that. And then obviously being currently pregnant, I don't know if she spoke to that, but I'm sure once you experience a pregnancy loss, especially in that type of traumatic way, that there is some anxiety moving forward. Does she talk about kind of how she's currently doing emotionally with like fears, you know, fears or anxieties about her current pregnancy? Yeah. And I think, you know, I happen to speak to her at such a critical time in her pregnancy, which is when she was really like rounding the corner of when she had had such issues with her last pregnancy. And I think to get to that point and just sort of like the issues that she had, was saying and connecting before then because you'd feel so afraid to connect to something for fear that you'll you'll lose it but it really is truly a story of hope I hope it inspires a lot of listeners

and Sarah is really great at just telling the story and I'm so thankful that she told it because it is it is a really hard thing to relive and you'll hear that and see that when you listen to the episode totally and I'm sure that she is like the poster child for resilience just based on the little bit that I know of her from being on Sean's season. She just presented, you know, she had a disability, but she just presented as so confident and, and, but not cocky, like confident and kind. And so I'm sure that she's been working on her resilience for a long time. So as hard as it is for her, it seems like this was kind of, this was the journey that she was meant to be on. And I'm hoping that she has two beautiful, healthy girls very soon.

And yeah, I can't wait to hear this. Of course, yes. And I mean, anyone who's listening, just a little warning, there is a little trigger warning if it's tough for you to hear a story about loss, especially at a later stage. I just want everyone to know that going into this so that they're mentally, you know, prepared because it is an emotional story. And let's bring Sarah on right now. And we are back with a very special guest.

I'm so excited to have her today. I was glued to my TV when you were on Sean Lowe season of The Bachelor, and I've been following along ever since. Please welcome Sarah Heron. Thank you. I know 12 years ago, glued to our TV screens, right? Was that 12 years ago? Yeah. Oh, my God.

I know. I know. Sorry to make you and anyone who remembers watching my season feel really old all of a sudden. I feel like that was maybe one of the best seasons, and you were so great on it. I would agree. Thank you. Yeah. And then, I mean, Paradise was like more recent.

But yeah, Sean's season was 12 years ago, I think. I hope I'm not dating myself, but I think 12. Yeah, I mean, that's, I feel dated now too because I'm like, oh my God, how old was I when I was watching? I know. So thank you so much for coming on. I know you've been so public with your fertility journey, which has been so helpful for anyone going through it, myself included. I think it's so important to hear other people's stories. So I'm so excited to get to speak to you today.

And I think the listeners are going to really benefit from hearing your story. So I guess to kick it off, could you just tell me about like, you know, like go way back to like even thinking or deciding that you were thinking about having kids, like the very, very beginning just to like take me through the whole journey. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it all really started during before COVID lockdown. But I was with my partner at the time. His name's Dylan. And we had been together for about two and a half years, I want to say.

And we were just having so much fun, like traveling the world, adventuring. And I was learning so much from him. And we were just like, you know, it'd be really great to like share this life with kids and grow our family. And so I just had this like awakening one day where I was like, like, I feel very sure that I want to have children. And I hadn't been sure up until that point. I was always, like, very on the fence considered freezing my eggs because I was just like, I don't know if kids, I don't know if the light bulb's going to go off for me. And then it did. And when it did, I was just very sure. So I went to Dylan and we weren't even engaged yet. But I was like, I really want to

have kids. I would like to have kids with you. Is that something you are into? And if not, like, I would love to know. And he was like, no, it sounds great. Sounds fun. Let's do it. Amazing. Yeah. So it's kind of just like off to the races. And we've never are, like the timeline of our relationship has never been very traditional anyway. So we started trying to conceive before we were even engaged well before we were married. And the very first step we took was we went and had it's called like a preconception appointment with my OBGYN. And I don't know where I got the idea to do that. I think she had just said at one point like when you're ready to start having kids, like come in for a preconception appointment. And what did that entail? Basically, I think the reason,

and she probably suggested that was because at the time I was 33. And so she knew I was like kind of inching towards that age of, what do they call it, like advanced maternal age now. Geriatric pregnancy, as they call it. Yes, very flattering term. Yeah. So when we had this preconception meeting, basically it was very straightforward. It was just like an office visit where she says, you know, try for six months.

If you guys don't have any luck, come back. We'll run some fertility tests. And it was just kind of basic, like giving you the rundown on how conception actually works. And there's actually really only a couple days out of the month when you can conceive. And so she told us some apps to download and to track my cycle. And I had already been off birth control for a couple of years. So we didn't have to worry about that. And then she just said, yeah, if you don't have luck, come back. We'll talk in six to seven months. So sure enough, six months went by, never got pregnant. However, my cycle was very regular because I was tracking in the app. I was doing all the ovulation test strips, everything.

Everything should have been working like clockwork, but it wasn't. And then I started to have these like intuitions of just like, well, it is kind of odd that I've never been pregnant. Like never even had a scare, never even had a blip of, oh my gosh, my period's late. Maybe I'm pregnant. And so I was like, let's go back. Had you been on birth control before that? I had been on birth control, but not for a crazy amount of time. I mean, you know, I started taking it, I think, towards the ends of high school, like a lot of millennial women.

And but I came off of it pretty much as soon as I graduated college because I just didn't really like it. And truth be told, I wasn't in relationships. And so I was like, I don't really want to take this pill every single day with no reason. Right. So I came off. So, yeah, I didn't really, I knew there wasn't like a hormone factor related to birth control that was messing things up. And so that's when I just started to feel like, well, that's kind of weird that I've never gotten pregnant. Never even had a scare.

So we went back in for the testing. And she basically was like, yeah, let's just run some basic fertility tests, hormone tests, test your AMH, your FSA, you know, get your follicle count, all the goods. And pretty much within the, within like a week or so of getting all the results, she was like, yeah, you have diminished ovarian reserve. And conception is going to be really challenging for you, basically said, And we can try to do, you know, some IUI treatments a couple times, but they're not very successful with people in your position. So your best bet would be to go straight to IVF.

And that was like one heck of a call to get. Yeah. I feel like anyone on this journey can kind of like remember that first moment where they're like, oh, this is not going to be just easy. This is like, I'm not, you know, it's not going to happen the way you always thought it was going to happen, which is like, you know what? Surprise-ish. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So that's, I definitely recall that for myself, but that must have been a tough thing to hear.

Yeah. I'm sure. Yeah, it was really hard. It wasn't what I was expecting at all. And certainly not to just be like handed some pamphlets of IVF doctors, you know? I was expecting, oh, there will at least be like some sort of interesting. intermediary treatment or plan that we can do before going straight to IVF because my perception of IVF was just that like this is what you do. This is like a last resort effort. It costs

hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is not something that is going to happen to me. I'm not going to have to pursue that. So it seemed so far out of my own reality. It was just hard to grasp right away. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like a mountain. Yeah. I think when it's first. presented. Yeah. And you're kind of like, why would I? I'm not one of the, like, that's fine. That's great for them, but I wouldn't need.

Why would I need to do that? Right. So I've definitely, I definitely had similar feelings, I think, going, going into that. So she recommends a different, a fertility doctor, I assume. Yeah. Yeah. So we got started right away with some consultations. I wanted to meet with like three different doctors just so we could get a range of different

approaches, different bedside manner, see what was going to be the best fit for us. And so that was March when we found out about diminished ovarian reserve. And by May, I began my first IVF treatment. Oh, wow. Okay. So pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah.

It was like, don't want to waste any time. We chose our amazing doctor, Dr. Amy Avazadei. And we live in Colorado. She lives in California. So, yeah, we just didn't really want to waste any time. We knew there was going to be like the added expense of travel. travel and just even like I think a lot of people have this perception that as soon as you start IVF, that's going to now immediately translate into baby, you know, within the year.

Right. And that's not the case. It's like from the minute you start IVF, it's now unpredictable. So I just like didn't want to waste any time, wanted to get started. And ultimately chose Dr. Amy for a multitude of reasons, but one was. that we could just be super proactive and get started. Can I ask, so at this time you're still, you're not engaged yet? No.

Was there like discussion around, okay, we're going to make these embryos and like what happens if it doesn't work out? Like, did you want to do some eggs on your own without him? Like, how was your, what was your thought process there? Great question. I mean, the first conversation was, do you still want to stay together? because my biggest, like, you know, self-deprecating feeling was he's going to want to leave now that he knows it's going to be challenging and expensive to have kids with me and it's not just going to be

quick and easy. Like, does he want to even stay? Is this something he wants to pursue? And, you know, I have, like, a lot of abandonment issues. And so that's why my brain went there. But we had that conversation and he was like, no, I'm like, of course, I'm in this with you and we're going to do it together. So then there was never really a question of, like, is it weird to be making embryos with someone that I'm not engaged to yet? It just, like, Dylan and I have always felt like we were, like, we just know we're together forever. But I did consider, like, should I freeze some eggs for like reassurance, insurance reasons, I guess. But really, the reality is I just didn't really yield enough eggs to do that.

So we chose not to. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. And I think that's another, you know, that's something people think about when they're going through it too. It's like I don't, because they say that the embryos are much more viable than like the eggs or they're, you know, they're less fragile.

I don't know what the correct technical term is. But so it does seem like, I don't know, you'd have to like be a little bit in my mind, even going doing it married. I think I had my thought was, you know, I'd have to have real doubts to like not want to put it towards the embryos. But I can understand why people do also. It seems like a very safe. Totally. Totally. And I think like no one should quote me on this because I obviously have not, I'm not like the egg freezing expert. But I think typically they want to bank around like 20 eggs when you freeze your eggs.

And we were nowhere near that if we want to because with embryos, they say you want to have about three embryos per successful pregnancy. Right. So we just weren't like it, we just didn't have the kind of numbers to have the option to do both. Okay. So you do this round of egg freezing. Yeah.

So we did our first egg retrieval. And it was like shockingly successful. I think in terms of the attrition rate. Oh, gosh, I should back up and mention that like when we had started the whole egg retrieval process, we found out along the way that Dylan and I are both carriers for a genetic disorder. So that also now... The same one. The same one. Yeah, we're both carriers, which is extremely rare, not unheard of, but rare. And so that now added further complications to our embryo creation because it meant one in four. four of our embryos would be affected by this genetic disease. So we're like, okay, great.

But I guess maybe that's like a, you know, a blessing in disguise, like why we're here so that we don't pass on this disease. And so when we did our first egg retrieval, it was, you know, as good as we could have hoped for, we were able to yield good amount of embryos from the eggs collected and like half of them came back unaffected. So we were like, great. We have, this is like a great turnout and we felt confident enough. I think we had, I think we had three embryos. So we're like, okay, if she says three for one live birth, let's go forward. And we moved forward with our first embryo transfer by like that subsequent November. So it did all move pretty quickly in that first year. Right. So how long after the retrieval could you,

did you do the transfer? Let's see. The retrieval was in May and then I did my transfer in end of October. And then I knew by November that it was not successful. Was it just a negative or was it? It was a chemical pregnancy, which means there was implantation. So when I went in for the first beta HCG test, there was HCG serum in my blood, but not enough to sustain the pregnancy. So this was, in my eyes, obviously devastating because you get the first test and you're like, oh gosh, I'm pregnant. Right. All my problems are. Yeah. And I've had that feel like. Yeah. And then they're like, come back in two days and we'll repeat the test because we want to see that levels are rising. And then they, of course, dropped and I lost the pregnancy completely.

So it gave me some reassurance because I was like, wow, that's the first time I've been able to actually be pregnant. This is a great sign. It shows that my uterus is capable of receiving the embryos. And so for me, as devastating as it was and as crushing as it was, it was still really, like, hopeful in a weird way. Right. And just kind of felt like, okay, well, this is a huge setback because now we have to figure out plan B. But I'm grateful that I know I can get pregnant.

Right. I'm sure that was reassuring. And what do the doctors, what do they give you a reason why they thought it might be chemical? You know, there's no real reason. Just because you create a uploid embryo, which means genetically or chromosomally normal embryo, doesn't guarantee that it will implant. That's the other thing. Another big misconception I think people have about embryo creation and genetic testing is that just because you have an embryo doesn't mean it will work. And even if like everything's perfect, your uterine lining is perfect,

the embryo is perfect, it's still just like one of those things. It's up to biology. It's everything has to be perfectly aligned in order for it to work. And there's no real reason of why an embryo won't stick as far as I know. So it was nothing I did wrong. It was nothing wrong with the embryo. It was just we were kind of on the wrong side of statistics on that one. Right. Just unlucky. Okay. Yeah. So then you do another one, I assume. So then we're down to two and Dr. Amy's recommendation was she suspected, well, not suspected, but one, she was like, I want to make sure you don't have endometriosis. And I want to rule out that that could have been a potential reason that embryo was not able to stick. So she was like a couple things. I think we should do another egg

retrieval and create more embryos. And then I think we should do exploratory, like a laparoscopy, to rule out endometriosis. So that kind of is where things really, like the timeline started to slow down because now we're talking about I had to schedule with a completely different surgeon to have endometriosis laparoscopic excision, which is a mouthful. Turned out I didn't really have any endometriosis, so we could kind of take that off the table. There was a little bit found on my ovaries, which could have suggested.

the reason for diminished ovarian reserve, but it had nothing to do with my uterus or my uterine lining. And then we did- Did you have any symptoms of endometriosis? No, I've never had any symptoms. The reason we went forward with the laparoscopy was because there's kind of like a diagnostic test you can take that will tell you if you are showing, like they take a biopsy, essentially, from your uterus, and they test that. And from the results of that, they can say there's indication that there might be endometriosis,

but truly the only way to diagnose is going in for a laparoscopy. Doctors have to actually be able to see it. So, yeah. But the biopsy showed that maybe, potentially that it was an issue. Yes. For anyone listening who's familiar, the score, when you do this test, it's like between a 1 and a 6. Six being you have very strong, like, highly likelihood of endometriosis, one being zero or being unlikely.

And I was a two. So it wasn't like you don't have endometriosis, but it wasn't super, super concerning. But Dr. Amy, you know, what I love about her is she just likes to rule everything out. She's like, I would rather rule things out now than, like, be chasing this forever. and you spending money on IVF after IVF when we could cross a lot of things off on our checklist. Smart. Yeah.

Okay. So you go in and it shows that's not really the issue. Right. Seems like. Right. However, there's like some like some opinions out there that say after you have a type of procedure like that, it kind of like refreshens the uterus and makes it a little bit more receptive because essentially they're like scraping out.

out any tissue that could have endometriosis in it. So this was in July, and then we were kind of all over the place here now, but I did have another embryo transfer after that. And I do think it helped with the implantation. Okay. Yeah. So, but to back up, I did go forward with two more egg retrievals per her recommendation, because the first one was a complete bust.

And so that was like, you go from the first one, which was like, that was amazing. We got a decent amount of eggs and it turned into 50% embryo attrition. And then the next round was nothing, like complete bust. Right. And I don't think, I think that's another misconception about IVF is that like, I don't think people realize how common it is for people to get no embryos. I think that's something I've heard from so many people. And I think most people think, I mean, the idea behind IVF,

seems to me to give you a sense of control. And I think once you've done it or once you're in it, you realize you're actually like not really that in control. Exactly. Exactly. So that was shocking and devastating for everyone. And Dr. Amy was basically like, I think we should do another one. Like let's just go straight into it back to back because they say also like the way ovaries produce eggs is it's not like bookended. It's not just here's a batch one month, here's a batch the next month. It's kind of like a wave. So you can catch eggs that were created like at the beginning of one cycle and then they're more mature by the next cycle, if that makes sense. So the reason we went straight into another retrieval was because she was like those eggs that weren't mature enough

for the last cycle will be mature enough now and they've been going through all the stimulation And so there's sometimes some increased results if you do back to back. I didn't even know that, but that's helpful for anyone listening. Yeah, it's a lot. It's pretty physically demanding on your body to do two back to back. But if you feel okay and if you're, I think, someone who's a little bit more of a low responder to IVF stimulation, it's good. If you're a high responder, if you're someone with PCOS, or if you yield a lot of eggs, probably not good for you because you're at higher risk for ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome. And so you don't want to do back to back for that reason. Right. So was the second consecutive retrieval? Yeah. So that was successful. And we got two or three more embryos. So then we were like, okay, weird. We want to be done with egg retrievals. I don't want to do those anymore. Let's move forward with the laparoscopic excision and then the transfer immediately following.

So we moved forward, did the surgery, did the transfer in August, and then that was successful. And I got pregnant with my son, Oliver. So we finally had a successful pregnancy. It was great. And just like, wow, okay, you know, it just seemed too good to be true. Like it worked right. You know, like a charm. Yeah.

And obviously things took a turn. Up until things took a turn where they go, were there any signs of something was wrong? No. I had a great super, well, I was really sick, but I had a wonderful, normal, uneventful pregnancy with Oliver. And unfortunately, we just lost him. So it was a late term loss that we just didn't anticipate. coming and the things that no pregnant woman ever wants to consider happening,

rightfully so, does happen to a lot of women. And it's just not something you ever anticipate. Like myself included, I always was just like, don't think about it, don't look at it, don't look at content about that, because maybe superstitiously it'll happen to you. And then it did. And I felt. felt like, yeah, just like no one prepares you for that, you know, so late in your pregnancy. Yeah. And I mean, you have a name. You have like, you know, I'm sure a very intense connection. How did you even like go about grieving and dealing with what happened? Well, we got started working with a grief counselor immediately. Like, one, I will just say,

say, like, the hospital came together to support us. Like, they offered us so many resources. They put us in touch with a nonprofit organization that provides support and resources, and they, like, took care of funeral arrangements and all the things that no 23-week pregnant woman ever thinks about needing to do. And then that allowed us to just focus on getting into grief counseling and working with my therapist. So, um, You know, you go into an immediate, like, bereavement period. We both took off work. Physically, my body went through postpartum because I was far enough along in pregnancy

that I still experienced all the postpartum symptoms of pregnancy, I guess. Right. Yeah. And that's another thing. Like, you never think about that happening. You know, like, why would you – you don't have – I didn't even have a breast pump. yet. Like, you know, so how am I supposed to know what I'm supposed to do? And thankfully, I just had friends that came together. They gave me their breastfeeding and pumping and postpartum

supplies and they stocked my fridge and they just did everything for me so that we could just focus on physically and emotionally healing. So like I said, we got started in grief counseling right away and kind of just went through the motions for the first like six weeks were pretty just a blur in blackout phase. Well, yeah, I can't imagine what that must have been like. I mean, it sounds like having the support system or like, you know, people rallying around you was kind of like, to me it seems like a pivotal part of what got you through that. Yeah, 100%.

And I mean, I'll say, like, everyone came together and put a meal train together. So we just had like hot meals that were getting dropped off to us every day. And we watched a lot of the office. Just like, you're just numb, you know? So you're like, I don't, you can't like watch anything. So you're like, just put something on to distract me visually and like kind of try and make me laugh. And yeah, other than that. that I like truthfully just don't really remember a whole lot for those first few weeks.

It's pretty wild. And then I slowly got into like spirituality and healing and I went on a yoga retreat and just started connecting with more women who had been through late-term pregnancy loss. And it just significantly helped to be able to connect with people who had been through it. Totally. I think, you know, that's one of the goals of this show itself is just, because it can feel, because a lot of people have like a miscarriage or, you know, maybe have trouble having a baby. But I think that it's really hard to find people who understand your specific point.

Yeah. Of grief and pain because it's like every infertility story is kind of unique and dealing with it in whatever, you know, whatever stage or capacity it's at. And like you were saying like even finding, it wasn't, I'm probably like, I'm sure like you could relate to someone who's had a miscarriage, but to relate. to someone who's had a late-term 20-plus weeks miscarriage is probably the whole new level of feeling like understood or connected, I would imagine. Yeah. And you are just like, at least me, I'm in such a, like I connect with people. I need connection.

And so I was in this phase of like people would be like, I can put you in touch with my friend Katie or like I'm making names up. But you are, I was just so desperate to talk to someone else who could relate and who had been through it that I was having like Zoom calls with total strangers. I was talking on the phone with total strangers just to feel like we weren't in it alone. And that would be a word of, you know, advice to anyone who's listening if you have been through something like this or if it happens to you, God forbid, you don't have to go through it alone. And I would say like the first important thing to do is to get grief counseling and to connect with a woman who's been through it. Because even if you don't know someone personally, someone you know knows, so like if you can

have the courage to talk to a best friend and say, do you know anyone who's lost someone or a baby late, just put the feelers out and try and connect with someone. And then as far as that grief counseling goes, it's really important you work with with someone who specializes in grief and loss. I've heard it's just like a different type of support than regular therapist. A regular therapist. Just like a general psychologist. Yeah.

Because it really takes someone who can like hold the space for you as long as it needs to be held rather than trying to like coach you out of the grief and make it better. It's like you just need someone to work, to walk with you through that grief. That's a great tip for anyone who's listening. And again, I don't think people realize, like when you said a friend of a friend or something like that, I just had Emily Oster on the show and she was saying how, I think in her new book, she talks about pregnancy complications. And she was saying actually like one in 160 births is a stillbirth or a late term pregnancy, pregnancy loss.

And really, like, you will, like, if you don't know someone, someone you know will know someone. I think that's such an important step to just ask for help. Yeah. I love that you got to chat with her. She's, like, my favorite. I subscribe to her substack. I just, she's great. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to her book.

I know it was announced, like, right after I lost Oliver. And I was like, why can't this be out like right now? So I'm really, I think it comes out. today, doesn't it? It'll be out by the time this podcast air. So anyone who's listening, definitely check it out. She goes through like so many different pregnancy complications that you could have and gives you a roadmap for if you, you know, how to start again. If you've dealt with this kind of thing, if you're looking for another to to begin like your second pregnancy journey or another an additional pregnancy journey. So shout out to that. But again, we've, we've had her on also. So at what

point did you feel like, okay, I think I can get back out there? Yeah. Well, I'm so curious to hear what Emily said about that. But I think women will have two different responses. There's either the I need to get pregnant again immediately to like fix my grief, which is fine. Like that is a perfectly acceptable healing journey. And then the second path is like I can't fathom getting pregnant again for a long time. And so for me, I was a little bit more of the latter. I was just like, I felt so connected to Oliver. I felt so just like in it with him still. I couldn't even imagine the idea of getting pregnant again. I didn't want to just like erase him or replace him. And so we waited six months. And then I felt like I was ready to go through with another

embryo transfer. And we did six months later. And it was not successful. I didn't even have implantation. And so that just like stirred up grief and trauma in me that I realized like I wasn't ready. I wasn't like emotionally strong enough yet. So hindsight's always 2020, right? Like how could I have known. I thought I was ready. And then it just was like, eke. Like, no, I'm not. And so we waited a couple more months and we took a vacation and we went, we rafted the Grand Canyon. And Dylan and I decided at this point to elope. So we got married on the trip. And then we said, okay, we'll come home and do another transfer. So at that point, we're like, it's our last embryo. We'll put it in. see what happens. Put it in in October. Was there pressure on this? Would you feel like or?

That's a good question. I think by this point, we were still feeling like hopeful, but definitely starting to fatigue. Like you, your shell gets hardened. You're like, I don't know if I really want to go through this multiple times, but we have the embryos, so let's do it. Right. So in October, we did another transfer did not take again. Again, no implantation. And at this point, we're like, what the hell? Like, now we're not even getting any implantation. So we'd had to have a real, like, reset of do we want to keep chasing this forever? Or is it time to start imagining a child-free life? And I was definitely drawing to that point of just like, I don't know if I can emotionally keep doing this to myself. Like, I, it's so painful. It's so devastating. It's so expensive every single time. It's consumed my life for the last three years. I kind of just like want my life back. I want to stop obsessing about IVF. And so we actually had two more embryos frozen that are mosaic embryos. Do you know what that is? Yes. I have some of those as well. Where they're like, you're not really sure. sure. Yes. They're like inconclusive basically, right?

Yes. So what it means is when they went off for their chromosomal testing, they came back not uploid, so meaning they're not perfectly chromosomally perfect, but they're not abnormal. So they're kind of like this in between. There's a great podcast actually on Dr. Amy's podcast where they talk about this. It's kind of like imagine the embryo is a soccer ball. And the white patches on a soccer ball mean that they're like chromosomally normal. And the black patches mean that they're abnormal. So we had two of these embryos that are like soccer balls. It doesn't mean they won't work. It doesn't mean they will work. They're just, like you said, a little inconclusive. But there's growing popularity in transferring them now

because what can happen is the white patches, the good cells, will actually push out the bad cells as the embryo continues to like multiply and divide. I've seen that. I've seen there's a lot of been a lot of studies about transferring mosaic embryos and they are very likely to turn out okay. Yes. So I joined this Facebook group that was all about like mosaic embryos because I wanted to learn everything.

And up until this point, I mean, I will admit, I was totally naive. I just kind of thought they were discardable. I didn't really consider them as like viable embryos. That's sort of how they present them to you, I think. Yeah. They're kind of like, well, if like every single thing doesn't work else doesn't work, like you can give these a shot. I feel like that's maybe the, and maybe wrongly, again, from all the research that I've seen on them. Right.

Well, and what I'm learning is a lot of clinics, they pride themselves on their results. So they don't want to take the hit on their success rates if they transfer an embryo that is less likely to succeed. So a lot of clinics are not really proponents of mosaics quite yet, but it's changing. And as like the research and the studies are improving and we're seeing more and more success rates, I think more clinics and more doctors are warming up to it. So, yeah, Dr. Amy was like, you have these two mosaics. Like, I really want you to consider them as good as you ployed embryos. And we were like, okay, I guess we could, let's transfer them. And again, I was just at that place of fatigue where I was like, if we're going to transfer

them, I want to transfer both at the same time. I'm over this. I don't want to do any more transfers. I am like, this is my last shot. And they let you do that? Or were they, did there was their pushback on that? No. Dr. Amy understood. She was just like, I get it, you know, and I'll do whatever you want. So if you want to transfer two, let's transfer two. And then we kind of had like a little bit of

cold feet going into it and just got this like wild hair. And we were like, let's do another egg retrieval too because what of these two? I don't know. It was just like you get to the end. You get to the end of where you said your threshold was and you start to freak out. And so I was like, I want to do another egg retrieval. And then we're going to transfer these two embryos in. And then we're done. So we liked this strategy also because it was a completely new transfer protocol. So essentially, up until now, all of my transfer protocols had been medicated transfers,

which most people listening are familiar with. A lot of people also do like modified natural transfers. I had never done that. So in this protocol, what we did was ovarian stimulation, did an egg retrieval, and then five days later, we transferred the two embryos in. So this would be like a fresh embryo transfer if you were someone that was opting out of genetic testing and chromosomal testing. It wasn't fresh from this retrieval. It was previous retrieval is fresh transfer. Correct. So it's called a fresh transfer with frozen embryos. Super complicated. I hope everyone is listening is like following along still because it gets

in the weeds for sure. But so this was a fresh transfer with frozen embryos. The egg retrieval was good. It was pretty much on par with my other successful egg retrievals. I think we got two embryos out of it. And then we transferred these two mosaics and they both stuck. And I am now pregnant with twins from mosaic embryos. Congratulations. I mean, how far along are you? So I'm 23 weeks.

Wow. Yeah, right where we lost Oliver. And it's very bittersweet. It's just hard to believe. I mean, it's so many emotions. I don't know, kind of just like I pinched myself every day. I'm like, how are we here? How did this happen?

How am I pregnant with twins? Like, is there anything that you do to sort of like hold that space for Oliver while, you know, being really excited for this pregnancy as well? It's interesting. I was actually just talking about that in therapy this week because, as I said, I got pretty spiritual, you know, after my loss and felt very careful. connected to his spirit and I was going to a lot of Reiki and seeing a lot of mediums and spirit baby mediums and I always felt really, really like he was close. And in this pregnancy,

I feel sometimes like his spirit is a little further or I feel like he has gone on to his spirit's next chapter. And I think that like, like, that is beautiful and okay because I do feel like he's supporting me and these girls, they're twin girls. And I do believe like he's watching over us and he's our angel and he has given me the easiest pregnancy with them and they're healthy and growing. And so I feel that connection, but I feel like from a spiritual standpoint, I'm like he's on. Like he is moving on. And I know he checks in on us and I know he's with us every day. But I think he like needed to. And I'm like, to give me space so that I didn't feel so, the grief wasn't so heavy in my pregnancy.

That's amazing. Have you read that book, Spirit Babies? Oh, yeah. I have. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like anyone, I read that too. I feel it's very, uh, puts me a little bit more at peace or at ease.

Yeah. You know what's weird about that is I can get really woo-woo on all of this, but. You kind of become a little bit more woo-woo. I feel like the longer you're in this, the more you're like, I need something to hold on to. You do. You need something to, like, believe in and to latch on to when you're in times of, you know, when it's difficult. And so the interesting thing about the Spirit Baby's book was I actually downloaded it to listen the week before we lost Oliver because I didn't really know what it was about, but I was like, oh, I thought it was like teaching you how to like communicate with your baby in womb. And so I was like, I'm going to download this book and listen to it. And I listened to like the first chapter. And I was like, oh, this is like for more. more targeted for people trying to conceive to like call your spirit baby in. So I stopped listening to it. And then the very next week we lost Oliver. And I immediately finished the book in one sitting. And I do think that that was in a weird way, like his intervention of like, you know, just connecting

me somehow to some resources. So yeah, I got a little woo-woo. No, I get it. I have a Riki person as well. Yeah. Like, I get it. Yeah. And it, you know, you're kind of like, can hurt. Yeah. And it helps mentally, I think a lot of the time to feel like something is there for a higher purpose or there's some sort of plan or, you know, at the end of the day. I mean, you're going to have these girls and like, that's, you know, who, like, would they be here if not for everything else that you've been through?

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So it's definitely like pregnancy after loss. And certainly pregnancy after late-term losses, who, not for the faint of heart. I mean, it's a very, very tough journey. But, yeah, I don't know.

It's just I feel you go through waves of like I didn't feel connected to these girls for a very long time. It's like it's not Oliver. I just want my pregnancy with Oliver back. It's very hard to feel excited sometimes, especially in those early days when you don't feel them moving yet. It's just, it's a head game for sure. And so anyone who is experiencing pregnancy after loss, again, I recommend you get connected with a support group or someone else who's been through it because it just sets you apart. You don't experience pregnancy the way a first-time pregnancy woman experiences it. It's just – it requires a different level of delicacy and permission, honestly, like just permission that it's okay if you're not excited.

It doesn't make you a bad mom. Doesn't mean you're less connected to your babies. There's just things that first-time pregnant women won't be able to relate to you on. And when are you due? Do August 7th. Amazing. I'll be following along. And I'm so happy for you and I'm so excited for you.

And is there a sense of like, you know, after having gone through all of these things, like, when I have it, like, I'll appreciate it more like a thought of that or like a feeling of like, you know, because I'm sure a lot of people would be like a little intimidated by the thought of twins. But is there something that feels like a little bit more okay about that knowing that, you know, how hard it was to get them? Yeah, I don't know. Like, I'm not going to lie. When you transfer two embryos in, you sign off on all this paperwork that's like, are you sure? Like, there is a higher risk of multiples when you do IVF alone. So now you're like really increasing your chance of multiples. Are you sure you're okay with this? And that's why a lot of clinics don't want to transfer more than one embryo. And so, you know, but I was just like, they're not bold. going to stick. There's no way they're both going to stick. And so when we found out it was twins, of course, you're like, well, I knew it was possible, but I did not think it was going to happen. And I would say for like the whole first trimester, I was like, oh shit, like what did we do? This is going to be so expensive. Our life is over. I mean, I was a little doom and gloom. Like I was like, what did I get myself into? This is, I don't know. I was just being.

like flippant and now here we are expecting twins. And Dylan bless him is so amazing. He's like, our life isn't over like it's just starting. It's going to be amazing and it's going to be the biggest adventure of our lives and we're going to figure it out and things will look different, but it's going to be our story. And just before getting on this call, I was actually looking at a photo of him and I early in our relationship. And I was like, who would have ever thought that this is going to be our journey and who would have ever thought in the future we're going to have twin daughters. It's just mind blowing every day. So anyone who gets pregnant with twins, it's normal to feel that way at first. It does go away. And now I'm just like, I can't imagine it any other

way. I'm so excited for these girls. Just before we go, is there any sort of words of encouragement you have for anyone out there who's going through it, you know, one way or another? just like not sure where the end of the tunnel is. Yeah. Gosh, I could write a book on words of encouragement for whoever you are and whatever your situation is. But I guess my best advice is to surround yourself with community. Like really, I mean this, like plug into a support group.

plug into a few different people you can connect with. You don't even have to know them in real life. Like, just have someone that you can talk to. You know, and then in terms of figuring out, how long am I going to do this? Like, when do I break up with IVF? When do I break up with trying to conceive? That's a real juncture a lot of us face. And I think the less we can get scared of that junction in the road and like actually start to visualize it and and and see it as a as like a beautiful extension of just a different direction. It makes it just makes the next steps a little bit easier. Just to clarify what you mean by that, are you kind of saying like if you can visualize a life that comes out in a different way than the way that you had planned

and sort of wrap your head around that, then it makes the whole experience different. I don't want to put origin your origin around. That's sort of how I'm interpreting it. That's how I'm interpreting it. Is that? Yeah, that's exactly right. And it doesn't necessarily have to mean like child free or adoption or, but there's so many options, right? Like there's embryo adoption.

There's egg donor. There's donor conception. There's child free life. Like there are other ways to imagine like deviation from the very first idea. you had. And as soon as you can like start to either, I think like intake content around that idea really starts to help with your own grieving process through IVF because it can just feel grading. It can just feel like this is never going to work out for me. I'm doomed. I'm going to turn it into this like lonely old lady. But like there's so many people out there

who are demonstrating the different possibilities. So if you can get familiar and just warm up to different ideas of expanding your family and your life. It really makes the process a little bit easier. Totally. I think an open mind is sort of like the only way to survive. Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree with that. And thank you so much for coming on, Sarah. This is such an amazing, powerful story. And I'll be following along and so excited for you. Thank you. I know it was a roller coaster for anyone listening. There's, love, there's loss, but it's, thank you for letting me share. I am an overshare. So I appreciate it. Well, this is the place for you. Yeah. So I appreciate the platform.

Awesome. And we'll be back next time on Baby Steps. Baby Steps is produced by me, Jordana Abraham, and Shannon Sison. Editing by Jorge Morales Pico. Guest booking by Ali Friedlander. And be sure to follow at Everything's Fine on Instagram. Betches.