Oversharing - Baby Steps: Finding Happiness When Your Infertility Journey Sucks Ft. Tara Lipinski

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

During hard times, sometimes laughter and understanding is the best kind of healing. In this second episode of Baby Steps Season 2, presented by First Response, Jordana is joined by Tara Lipinski, Olympic gold medalist and host of the podcast Unexpecting, to discuss Tara's fertility journey and her emotional rollercoaster of going through multiple miscarriages, surgeries, and IVF treatments. Together, they explore the mental and emotional toll of infertility and the importance of creating a community that understands you. Then, Tara offers words of encouragement to those experiencing infertility, emphasizing it's possible to find light at the end of the tunnel and that sometimes ... its ok to just need a joke, not pity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by First Response. First Response recognizes that not all pregnancies are the same, and neither is the road to get there. The First Response brand is fervently committed to supporting, sharing, and empowering all pregnancy journeys and providing accurate information, especially to those struggling with infertility, loss of a baby, and maternal health inequities. With a variety of tests that detect pregnancy hormones early and often, first response is there for you every step of the way. All First Response pregnancy test products are available for purchase at all major retailers in store and online. Be sure to pick one up today. Hello and welcome back to Baby Steps. I'm Jordana Abraham and I'm here with my sister,

clinical therapist, Dr. Naomi Bernstein to introduce today's episode. Hey, Jordana, so excited to hear about this next guest. So today's guest, I'm sure you've heard of her, an amazing, amazing person. A, I would say an American hero, some might say, Tara Lipinski. Ah, awesome. Yeah. So I'm so excited to introduce my episode with her. It was such a good episode. It was such, I mean, well, here's the thing. So Tara just had a baby via surrogate, but before this and while she was going through it, she recorded a podcast about her like struggle with infertility. She hosted with her husband. And they basically take you through their entire fertility journey, like in very specific details and really just go through on her podcast, like the like nuanced feelings of like every

single part of this journey. And she had multiple miscarriages, multiple failed ag retrievals, multiple failed IVF transfers and so many like surgeries and procedures and things like that that. I kind of felt like this was the first story I had seen with someone with like almost as an extensive of a journey as me. Or maybe more so. I mean, she's been through it for five years. She's definitely got more time than me. But I thought, you know, I was prepping for this podcast.

I was listening to hers and I just couldn't stop listening because I was like, this is someone who like fully understands these like micro moments of like pain and anxiety and is describing them in such accuracy. I was like, felt seen and heard for. the first time. It was such an incredible show. I was so excited to talk to her about what she's doing and just how amazing it was that she really took everyone through this entire journey with her. Yes, I can imagine. And I think that's what's amazing about what you do and about what she does, which is just take something that can be so isolating. And just like the little, like you're saying,

like someone who feels like they're in that doctor's office with you or they're in that back. bathroom with you or they're in that moment with you when you're going through something that's so painful and like they've been there. I can't even imagine like just how like connected. You could feel to someone. I only imagining, you know, that you've never met before because you have such a shared experience. Yeah. Totally. And that's what she said. She said like anyone who's gone through this, like you immediately feel such a connection to them. And I mean, I mean, it was, to me, like, really highlighted the importance of, like, representation for everyone, you know, in, in so many different ways. Like, there's, because, like, how many, I mean, it's one thing, obviously, like, many people experience miscarriages, but to experience, like, multiple and to have, like, so many of these procedures and to have this ongoing for so long is, like, such a very specific kind of, like, its own torture, I would say, or its own, like, pain points that are really,

hard to understand. And I like it made me really appreciate things that that like people make for for like minority groups like to represent them so that they can feel so seen like it made me realize how important it is to feel like there are stories out there that reflect your own and there are journeys out there that reflect your own. And maybe that's something. I mean something I've thought about and like sort of appreciated but I think now being in this like sort of small subset of people who have had like these really like up and down experiences just to realize like yeah it's not like there's going to be like millions like millions of people who relate to this but for the people that do to have like a story represented does feel it just makes you feel so much better to like feel like you're not

as alone in your thoughts and feelings not just in like the in like the things that have happened to you but in having someone articulate those feelings yes yes yes because it's not just the physical like I've been through this. I had this result. I had this miscarriage. But like the way that you felt the, I'm sure and I'm excited to listen to the episode, like the, you know, the excitement and the disappointment or like the little nuanced pieces of how you kind of have to emotionally roll through this.

I could see that being really amazing for you firsthand, you know, talking to her, but for all the listeners that I'm sure are going to have the same experience doubly because they're hearing you and her. I wonder if she spoke to like what we talked about on oversharing around like the resilience, like kind of how how you work your way through like one and then the next and then like all these series of disappointments, like what that journey is as well. Like the first time you have a miscarriage versus like the fourth time you have a miscarriage, like how that. Right. Yeah. And I mean, her story was very inspiring too because I mean, she's like an Olympic gold medalist, right?

So she's like kind of used to just like, I think it's like in her bones to just be like, I'm going to keep going until I like get it. Like I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep going and going. And like I'm not an Olympic gold medalist, but like I have this feeling of like pushing through things and like sort of like strong arming your way through them. So I definitely could relate to her a lot in that way. And just like, just like even just like again. like talking to someone whose body has done such incredible things like again like how many people

win a figure skating gold medal right but also like the other edge of that it's like where you've had this relationship with your body where your body has been doing what you've wanted it to do for like a certain point in your life and then it gets to this point where it's and you and it's doing something that nobody's body does right nobody else can do that this regular thing that seems so that everyone Right. Yeah, that everyone seems to be able to do so easily is like so elusive to me. So it was just so much so interesting on so many levels. And I admired her so much for making the show. And the first part of the show is really like before she even like knows she's going to have a baby. So she's like in the thick of it. But there's also like she's doing this with her husband and they're recounting their whole. It's been five years. So they've been like recounting the earlier stuff. And they're still like laughter and they're still like lightness to their banter. It doesn't. doesn't all feel like very intense and heavy. It was such a good podcast. It's called Un Expecting. And you guys should listen to it before you listen to this episode or if you want to listen to it after. We talk about like a lot of the themes in there. But such a good podcast. Never seen anything

done like this that really just goes into this much detail. And I'm excited for you guys to listen to our conversation. Me too. All right. Well, let's bring her on. And we are back and I'm so, excited to introduce our next guest. She is an Olympic gold medalist and broadcaster. Welcome, Tara Lipinski. Hi, how are you? I'm good. I'm so excited to have you here. It's so surreal to be here speaking to you. I remember watching you win the Olympic gold medal. I must have been like eight or nine years old and you were such like a hero to so many young girls. Like so inspirational. Thank you. Yeah. And that's, this just feels like a crazy full circle moment because, you know, you were a hero back then for like a certain reason. And now I feel like is someone who's going through infertility, you were like

an adult hero for a very different reason. Very different, very different journey. Yes. And I mean, it's funny. Like I usually start these with having people tell me their story. But, you know, prepping for this episode, I'm listening to your podcast. And you give the most incredible detailed story with your husband, Todd, of your fertility journey, like beginning to end, you give all the details. And when it comes to fertility content when you're going through it, you're kind of like in the mode or not in the mode. And I've lately been in the mode of like, I don't really want to see anything. But you were coming on the show and I wanted to obviously prepare. So I listened to the show and I figured, okay, I'll listen to an episode.

So I'll get like the gist of it. And I started listening to the first episode. And then I couldn't stop. I listened to it. I must have listened to 10 hours of it yesterday. It was such a good podcast. Oh my God. I felt so seen. I felt like obviously our stories are not like identical, but they're similar enough, the experiences that you were describing, you know, going through miscarriages, going through pregnancy tests, going through surgeries. Like I felt like you in a way that I had never heard before were just like articulating exactly how I felt. I'm sure I'm not the only person to tell you that. I'm sure you've heard that from other people. Yeah, I mean, it's like really nice to hear that. And I feel like an instant connection to you when you're like,

I feel I felt seen and heard because I feel like in a way it also made me, even though I was the one, you know, telling my story. It made me feel seen and heard to speak it and to then create this community where people message me and say the same thing. Like, oh, I was nodding my head. I felt this so deeply. And I think it's been one of the most. more fulfilling things I've ever done in my life, really, to create this conversation, this community, to just feel not only myself feel seen, but, you know, it's like one of those things, until you walk in those shoes, you don't really understand that deep feeling, that ache, that sort of just like, you know, craziness in a way of what infertility and IVF journeys and miscarriage, you know, does to a

person. And so to find someone who you connect with and you feel bonded with is so incredible. And I just feel like, you know, I've had, you know, a big circle around me of family and friends. But truthfully, I almost feel closer to the people that reach out to me or, you know, even just hearing you say you've been through something like that and you got it. I feel immediately connected in this really interesting deep way, which is kind of mind blowing to me. You know, I guess that's what. the amazing thing about community, but it really, it is special. And I mean, to me, that's like the most incredible thing about what you've done. I mean, I started this show to hear people's stories.

But on these episodes, usually, like, we do an hour and you get like the top level information, which is like good. I think that's helpful for, for again, destigmatizing and getting like, you know, getting multiple stories that aren't just like, you know, we did IVF and here's the baby and you can see it on Instagram. Right. But with your story, I think. think you've taken it to another level where you really like get fully into the details of like

this was how I was feeling before like I looked at the portal for these results and you know this is the moment that you get the you know you go into a scan and there's no heartbeat like I cried listening to that I was just like this is again like you were saying like no one I've never heard anyone described that moment to me because I don't know anyone who's been through that moment and to hear you explain those feelings just like exactly to that. the tea. You go over like so many different components of this process, which is really incredible. And there's really nothing else out there like that for like the fertility or infertility community. So I just want to say thank you. Well, thank you. I mean, we had no idea. You know, we just like self-published

this. We were just, you know, doing this in a way, I think, for us to heal a little bit. And we knew that there's obviously a community of people out there. And I just, you know, I had followed so many people on a fake Instagram account and felt part of it like in a very removed way. So there was a part of me that was really wanting to open up because for so long I was so closed off. I really didn't want to talk about it. I didn't really open up to anyone. And then, you know, finally after five years, I think I just got beat down so much that I was like, screw it. I don't care. But it was really interesting because we had no idea what it would be like to record these episodes.

We, you know, we were doing them in, in quote, quote, quote, real time, really. Like, you know, if you picked up on the podcast when we already had our baby, like, that's way beyond the fact. Like, we were going down and it was like very emotional, you know, like we would go down and talk about after the surrogate was having a bleed and was at the emergency room. And I'd be like, what am I doing? Why am I putting this out into the world? Like, you know, and you're just sitting there still just feeling all these scared feelings.

But, you know, I think it was just really healing for the two of us. And then like I said, you know, I think, you know, this story is not unique to me. And it just goes to show with all the people that I've like connected with that the feeling of, you know, loss and grief through infertility and IVF journeys and all of that is is a very specific unique feeling that we must all feel this very like this very same feeling, which is incredible to think about. And I, didn't know that, right? Like I thought, am I overreacting? Am I just feeling these feelings? So it's, you know, it's been nice, like I said, not only to share my story, but I think it gives me a little confirmation that I wasn't, you know, crazy or alone or too much. Right. Because I think especially,

like, I mean, obviously, like, infertility is like pretty, is not uncommon. You do hear about it here and there. But I think once you get into, I think there's different ranges of it. And there's people who maybe like, you know, they try for for five, six months and that's a form of infertility. But then there's people who are like, you or me, maybe who are doing this for years. And it feels like it's just a different level of like intensity. We talk about it on the podcast. We call it levels. You know, there's different levels. And everyone's story is, you know, obviously, whether it's a month or a year or five years, it's, you know, their story and their feelings to feel. But I do think as you progress,

through, you know, like the length of these journeys, it does create another level of feelings that are just deeper and, you know, there's just more loss. There's more grief. There's, you know, more that you're carrying, the longer you go. And I think that that group is even more niche, right? Like so many people try IVF and maybe the second time around it works. But like, where are the people, you know, that do it eight times and have all these failures, you know, so. it was really nice to find those people. And I hope that they, if they listened, that they feel, you know, feel less alone from that. Yeah. And I think that's exactly what it's doing. And I think, you know, maybe a part of me was hesitant to start your show, which is called Unexpecting. And it's

everywhere podcasts are. So if you guys haven't, if you guys haven't listened, probably be good to listen to a few episodes before this one. But if you haven't, you really just, again, you just detail all these moments within your five-year journey. to have your baby. And it is crazy to like listen to it while in the beginning episodes you're like, and we're not, we're still not successful. And I think that's so hard. And I felt the same way kind of starting this show of like part of me was like,

maybe I'll have it figured out by the time I start recording or this airs. And it'll, I can put a, I can put a bow on it. And I can feel like, okay, like I can talk about it with a little bit more distance. But you didn't, you didn't do that, which is also so incredible because it is hard to find people who are talking about it in real time as opposed to people who are posting the birth because they feel like they can finally say something. And the difficult thing about, you know, there's not probably not that many people who have podcasts about their fertility. So I feel like we're even more niche group here. Is this feeling of this pressure like you were

saying with the surrogate and she's bleeding like, I have to like update people. People. Yeah. I was like, I don't like, how am I going to do this today? And, I'm glad that I was able to do it, but I have to be honest. Like I understand the flip side, right? Because that was me. For five years, I didn't want to talk about it at all. I went through the world where if someone peaked in on my Instagram, they'd be like, oh, great life.

Everything's cool. Like, meanwhile, I'm breaking down. And I think that, like, for myself, that's what I needed to do. Like, I had to put those blinders on. I had to just, you know, focus on getting through every day. like if I had released it to the world and had other information coming in or opinions or just, you know, more feelings from actually telling my story. I don't know if I would.

I was strong enough, like mentally, physically at that time you do that. So I always say that too. I'm like, if you are not able to tell your story, don't. Like, that is your thing. If you want to keep it close, if you want to tell someone after you've done a transfer and it's positive that you did a transfer, like that is what you should do. it really is so hard to get through it. I think the reason why I opened up wasn't because I'm so strong to be able to open up. Like, it took me five years. I just got to a point where I really,

you know, I think you almost have to accept and accept and accept once you reach all these failures. And that takes time. So I finally got to a different level of acceptance that I didn't have in the beginning. Right. So when you started the show, did you have like the surrogate lined up. Was she already pregnant? No, we were talking, you know, to, we started this after my fourth miscarriage. And then we did it very slowly because at that time, I was like really struggling. Just we decided to do it. But then it would be like we'd go down into that. It was all done in our basement. And I'd be like, Todd, like, I can't like tomorrow.

Let's do it tomorrow. And so we slowly did it after that. And then we ramped up towards the end. when we did have the surrogate in place to make sure that it sort of caught up to real time because we didn't want then all of a sudden to have the baby and it not makes sense. Right. But we started after my fourth miscarriage. Okay. And then after that, I had, I did one more retrieval while doing it. And then we got a surrogate in that time frame.

Right. It's almost like the universe is rewarding you for being so vulnerable. Right. gift at the end. I mean, it's, it, it must be like an incredible feeling after. I'm not up to this part. So forgive me if I'm asking you something. I can hear on on the show. I'm, I'm just up to the, you found, you found the septum. Yes. Yeah, you found the septum, which is a surgery I've also had. It's funny to like have another person where you kind of feel, because you think it's just you who like just keeps getting diagnosed with thing after thing. And you're like, how many things could I possibly

even have? Yeah. And I thought you, like, what's next? Like, right. And especially you, I think, as someone who's like an Olympic skater, like someone whose body was like, has done incredible things. And you talk about this a lot with your relationship with your body. Because for the first part of your life, you're probably like, my body is like sick. Like it can do things no one else can do. And then it turns around to why can't it do the things. that everyone can do. It seems like every person that I see can do it except for me. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. I just, you know, and I said it, I think, in the podcast where I was like, my body worked for me until it didn't. It was, you know, like my body was sort of this vessel that

I was able to, you know, live out my dreams of, you know, becoming an Olympian and winning an Olympic gold medal. And it was very, you know, there was a formula to it, you know, train hard, train harder success, you know. And then all of a sudden, I, you know, I. I, you know, go down this road of infertility and I thought I could just apply those same strategies of, okay, well, all right, clean out my kitchen. We do all glass and I, you know, I eat fertility shakes and I do fertility acupuncture and that is going to bring success. And it was, you know, really, I guess, enlightening to realize that when it comes to infertility, that that is not the case. Your body is in charge. It's going to do whatever the hell it wants to do.

And you have to eventually go with the flow. And that took me so long throughout our, you know, five-year journey to accept. You know, I was, Todd would laugh at me because I would always be on my phone, like, doing this. And he's like, you're counting again. You're counting the days till transfer. And then you're counting out what that will look like for the day five test. And you're counting out a due date. And I just counted, count it. And it became like a cruel joke eventually when it just was like every time I did that, every due date, every, you know, IVF calculator when I get excited for a transfer, it just was like a cruel joke when it didn't happen. So eventually towards the end, I just stopped. You know, I was like, I give up.

You win. Like IVF infertility, like clearly I can't beat you. So, you know, fine. Right. And when you say like I give up, does that mean just like I'm going to like not overanalyze every, every I think I had different emotions. Like I'm not, you know, if I'm being, and I tried to be as honest as I could on the podcast. Like I was never like a overly positive. Like, we're going to get this. Like we got this. Like I, you know, that was not me. Like I, I, I think I'm, I like, you know, I feel like I'm resilient and I love to work hard at things. So I think that's where sort of the persistent, you know, sort of Tara came in where I was like, I'm not going to. give up. But, you know, there were many times I thought I was. And, you know, when these things would happen to me, I was really scared. I would go into like worst case scenario. Like, it's never happening. Like, something's wrong. They can't figure it out. Like, there was so many of those moments. And then obviously, after the failures or the miscarriages, I would just be, you know, for like two weeks. I had like a definite cycle.

I'd go through where I would just lay on the couch, pity. It's never working. We're giving up. I'm never doing this again. And then slowly, you know, I think as cliche as it is, it's like time does help things. So it's then, you know, you fast forward and eventually I'd wake up and I just have that like little seed in my gut where I was like, all right, call the clinic, like make the appointment, figure out what's next. Right. So that kept happening. I don't know if eventually I would have. give it up, give it up. And that would have been okay too. You know, I think that's something I always like to say because I'm sure there's so many people listening in the podcast that haven't gotten to that end point yet. There's so many people that have moved on. And I mean, IVF,

infertility, not everyone can afford this. This is insane, the amount of money and, you know, resources you have to have to continue a journey. So there's so many people that move on to a child free life and are quote unquote successful because, you know, they've learned something, they've gotten to a point where this is their life. And I never want someone to feel like without a child or still in the journey that you're not successful. Because again, like the whole body athlete thing, there's no winning or losing in IVF. You know, they're really, it's just a really hard, you know, it's a hard journey to be, to be on to have gone through. to have succeeded in, to have moved on in different ways.

I think, you know, that's my biggest concern when I had Georgie because I just didn't want people to think like, oh, like she won. Like she got this. Like I'm, you know, I still felt so deeply for the people still in the trenches of it. And also for the people that moved on to never feel like, oh, like, you know, I think that I won. You know, there's no winning in this. Right. They've won too. Like just sheerly getting through IVF or infertility, you've won.

Yeah. Right. And I think that can, I mean, that's almost like you get, you know, you're so happy, especially if you hear someone's been dealing with infertility, you get like, you're so happy for them when they finally get there. But there is this feeling of like, shit. Now am I the only one still here? Like in the, in the trenches of this. Am I the only one left? Like, I do think there's that, that feeling of like, I don't want to call it jealousy, but it does. does feel like I'm jealous that you don't have to talk about this anymore. And Todd kind of talked about that a lot on your show. Yeah, we're very sensitive to that because I really had a lot of those emotions. And it was hard because I always questioned, like, what do my friends think? What am I, like, what does my family think? Like, you're not jealous. I think what it is. It's really, like, you're having like two, you know, feelings at once. And that is okay. You're happy for whoever it is, a friend or a family member that's pregnant. But at the same, time, it's just bringing up all of that baggage, all of that trauma you've been through. And it's

putting it in your face of like, why can't I get there? Like, will I ever get there? Like, all of those thoughts flood you. And I think that's the hardest part when you're going through infertility is just like dealing with the emotions. So for me, I really became sort of honest with everyone of like, I, I'm struggling to be around children. I'm struggling to go to a shower. Like, I just personally for my mental health, I am so happy for you, but I can't do it. Like I even had trouble watching movies that were like about families because then I would, you know, hamster wheel it all night of like, that's never going to be us. Like we're not we're going to, what is life going to, you know, you just go on a million

different black holes of what life will look like. Right. It's like this longing for something that you don't, you never fully had, but like the feeling that you might not have it is kind of terrifying thing. And you're faced with that. And especially, I mean, you talked about this too. I think like so many, you talked about so many things that go on when you're dealing with this for so long that so few people have articulated just like the feeling of, you know, you started an egg retrieval at the same time. A friend got pregnant. And then like there, they've got like a three-year-old and you're still, you know, still doing it.

Still doing what you were doing. And it can feel like really, just like the existence of this person can feel like a little depleting. It can. It just like it's in your face when you realize when you really have to take that hard look of what you're going through. I think that's the thing. That's why I didn't really open up about it in the beginning because I wanted to distract. I wanted to pretend it wasn't happening because it was going on for so long. And there was so many answers that weren't being answered and questions that weren't being solved and all of these things that, you know, I just sort of felt like maybe I'll never get there. And then when you see someone else there, it's just right in your face. Right. And I mean, you talk about how you were like really intensely online.

Did you find that that was more stressful for you? Like, was there a part of you? Because for me, I kind of, I did that in the beginning. And then I felt like I was just bombarded with like a lot of half stories. And maybe there's some people who do like more intense documenting. But part of it did kind of stress me out, like when it didn't work for people? Yeah. Yeah. Well, because you would be like, oh, my goodness, like you, I think what it is is like the scariest part is IVF is not an exact science. Like, you want to believe that when you go in of, oh, I'm doing my first retrieval. I'm going to have like 12 babies on ice and everything's fine. And that's just not the odds. That's not the statistics. And then the more you're like a quote unquote long hauler, you realize that some of it is really just.

I mean, it's just chance. It's just luck. It's like you don't always have an answer, which is terrifying, right? Because you want a doctor to say, like, I know what it is. I'm going to fix it for you. Right. And you've got this. But you start to realize that that's not always the case. So when I would see people stories and it would be like, I'm on my sixth transfer and it still didn't work. It just, it did. I understand what you're saying. It would make me nervous. I'd be like, well, I'm like her. Like this is us in this small category that no, one can figure out what to do with. And, you know, it was almost, it's funny because then you'd see someone succeed. And of course, you'd be like, oh, I want to succeed too. But then you would at

least think like it worked. Like they figured something out after all this time. So it can happen for me too. And sometimes they didn't figure anything else out. And you talk about this phenomenon a lot where it's like you keep doing the transfers or you keep like having miscarriages and it can feel like, you know, what's the definition of insanity that you hear? It's like doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Right. And then you're kind of like, am I just like, am I like a fertility junkie? Like, am I just addicted to to doing this? Is anything going to change? Or is it just going to be the same hamster wheel? Well, you start to feel a little crazy, right? You know, obviously you rely on your doctors to like tell you if it's like time to stop. I think that I always

relied on that. And my doctor truly, we couldn't figure, you know, you'll hear towards the end what we eventually figured out. But, you know, for so long, we really just had zero answers where it was like, you look great. Like everything's fine. It should work. It might have just been chance. It might have been the subdom. It might have been this. Like, you know, there's all of these variables. But eventually, you do get to the point where I even felt it from other people. Like, you feel the pity, right? You feel the pity of someone talking to you and you're like, I'm going to go for another transfer. And they're like, oh, okay. Right. You kind of even think that they don't think it's going to work. Oh, they already know it's not going to work. And they're, you know, oh, like, and do you think if this doesn't

work that you'd, like, think of a different option or what, you know, what is your doctor saying? Is your doctor, you know, and you just realize, oh, wow, you know, I'm at that point where people are just like, ooh, what is she doing over there? Like, totally. Yeah, there's like, almost like there's like a critical, like a critical mass point of like people are like rooting for you and excited for you. And then you feel like you hit a certain point where they're like, oh, now it's like that. Yeah. And they don't know what to say either anymore. You know, you don't even, they don't even know how to respond to you letting them

know it didn't work again, you know. Right. Yeah. Like what do you want, they don't even know what you want to hear at that point. Right. And you don't even know. It's funny. I feel like you don't even know what you want to hear.

You don't even know what you want to hear. But you also know that they're stumped. And they are probably thinking like, we've done this like seven times already. I've already gone down the road of giving you, like, hope. I've gone down. Like, it will work out. And it's probably not. I don't even know what to say to you anymore.

Right. Yeah. I mean, you talk about your like, your acupuncturist and like, I relate to you a lot in terms of like I'm very much like a pusher. Like I'm just going to like try to like get the job done. But I think through this process, I've sort of become a little more open to this like spiritual like because you kind of like when there's no answers or when you kind of feel like you don't know what to do.

you do want, I'm not like a particular religious person, but I've, you know, I've spoken to like psychics and ranking healers. Like, have you, did you get to that point? Oh, I got to that. And I think that's just part of who I am. I'm just like open to those things because I, I look back even as an athlete, I think I'm not that person. But even as an athlete, obviously, you know, superstitions are things that, you know, athletes will go down because they have such a lot lack of control over their, you know, sport that you try to latch on to anything. But, there's that same feeling of, you know, ooh, the magic of it. Oh, the belief of if I believe hard enough. And if I, you know, enter this other realm of spirituality, like that will help. It's,

it's like the secret, you know. So I feel like that definitely happened to me in my fertility journey, too, where, you know, if you asked me in the beginning, I would have been like, no, like, I was doing the astrology, like on the transfer dates, my acupuncturist. She was the main leader of this. She's very spiritual. And I mean, she is now a lifelong friend. And but even my doctor, you know, the last retrieval, she's bringing in her pink fertility crystal. You know, we were pulling out all the pensions.

We're like, something is got to work, you know. So I would have my fertility stone that I'd bring in for good luck. And, you know, it's just you do. You get to the point where. You have so little control and you don't know what to do that you have to believe and have faith and have hope or how would you keep going. Right. Do you feel like any of that stuff actually helped in some way?

Like even if it was just, even if it wasn't, yeah. It helped me. I mean, I think that's what, you know, I say when people ask me like, oh, should I do, should I do supplement? Should I do fertility acupuncture? Should I do, you know, Reiki, what should I do? and I just sort of say like, the real answer to me is that, you know, those things won't always fix the problem, right?

But they may help you deal during the journey. So for me, I don't know if the fertility needles, you know, help me in said retrieval. I just know the work that I was doing on myself when I was in those appointments, talking to Danica, you know, learning, acceptance, resilience, all of those things were actually happening through, you know, that medium of acupuncture. So for me, it was a place to let my fear out, to, you know, talk to someone. So I think that there's so many benefits from all of these, you know, supplemental things you can be doing during your journey that, you know, you don't have to 100% know that they're, like, scientifically proven because they're not. But it can just help you emotionally, I think.

That's a great point. I mean, mental health, I think, is like half of the game for this kind of thing. Like, obviously, it's physically taxing to go in and take the hormones and do the surgeries and do the procedures. But like the mental part, I think, is probably a lot tougher. It is. It's so hard. I mean, for me, that was, you know, the physical, you know, and I always try to, you know, think of everyone on this journey because there are some people that the hormones really affect them on a day-to-day basis. and it is really hard. But for me, the hormones, the physical part of it was tough, but it wasn't the hardest part for me. Like, for me, 100%, it was the mental, the mental, the emotional aspect of it all was the most devastating and hard, the hardest part of my journey. Right.

Did you ever think about taking a break? Yeah. I mean, every time I'd be like, I'm done. This is BS. I'm over this. I'm done. But like I said, I just always had that thing where it would just come back to me, where I would just get, I guess it's hope. You know, like I would think, let's figure it out. And I'd have the energy to do it again.

Towards the end, I was like really starting to hit a wall. That fourth miscarriage. I had two miscarriages within three months. And all the miscarriages were exactly the same. So there was always like this cruel, you know, I was like, mix it up. Give me a chemical, you know, give me, give me something a little different here. Like, same thing. It was almost ground. It was groundhogs day times 100. And it was to the point where it, the, I always said, I was like the first miscarriage was like heartbreaking, but the fourth, you know, just was, it just took me down.

It was the one that physically, I, I had complications after and bled for a while and became anemic. And I just was physically. at zero and then emotionally so angry and so tired. And I had a little fuel left in me. This, you know, the idea of a surrogate and one more retrieval was like what I gave it my all. And I was, I like almost, I could feel it. It was like this last push. And then after that, I was just exhausted. And I've been sort of dealing with the effects of everything. Like my, I have an endometrioma now that I never, you know, like, my body just was like, it's over. You are done. So I had that last little

sprint in me. Yeah, I mean, you talk about like, because I mean, there is this feeling like, again, we talk, you talked about the levels like there are, you know, even when you can get pregnant and then you lose a pregnancy, it still feels like, oh, well, some people can't even get pregnant. But then you're like, oh, but I get these, I'm pregnant and then I lose these pregnancies. And then I'm like, I'm like set back. Like, it's like you're going to a negative because then you're, you know, it has to come out of you. And it takes. a while and there's all these complications where it's like, would it have been easier to just never had it? And then when I had it, it was fine. Right. I mean, for me, and I, and this is just

my own unique view of it of going through it. So, you know, I always want to be sensitive to everyone. And like you said, it's so hard for people that don't see the positive pregnancy test. But I will say for me, because I've had failures where I didn't see the positive pregnancy test, But for me, it was way, way harder to go through a miscarriage. At the end, I was, I was praying when I would, you know, on day five, I would literally say, please, if it's not going to work, please don't let it be a line. Like, please don't make me go through this hell. And for the next, you know, seven weeks, you know, I would become so, I was just so anxious. so scared. I was going, you know, you're waiting for these HCG results every two days to see if a

number doubles and you're just like sitting on your couch for those like four hours waiting for that test result to come in. And it's either like, okay. And then you're Googling and deep hole, black hole of, you know, what does this number mean? Like it would have been way better if we just, you know, it just was a failure. I'm not, I'm nodding along the whole time. It's like if it's going to be a no, let it be like a real like deep full no not like a it's so funny because I feel like they used to tell you you know you can't be there was like a thing like you can't be half pregnant where it's like actually like kind of feels like you can kind of feels like you can kind of feels like you can it feels like you can see that you like have a stick that it says positive and yes but somehow

you don't have a baby so this is a weird thing right like I mean I've had I've had all the types of miscarriages and the chemical one is kind of like that thing it's like you know you see the thin line and it's so funny you're like I can tell just from looking at the line what the number is and where it should be at this point and how many days passed and like with the chemical it was like fuck it's like a little line it's like a little shitty line so yeah and you're like why and then you like still don't want to give up hope and then you're like waiting for the next day right that lingo I can say like is really one of the most mind numbing frustrating heartbreaking cycles to be a part of.

Yeah, it's definitely like a very unique hell. So when you were doing the podcast, did you like feel senses of regret at times, like that you were doing it or are you kind of like just here a little bit of putting it out there? It was really, you know, I've been in the public eye my whole life and been very open and honest and never never was that person that was scared to share things. definitely the night before the podcast went out, I panicked. I was like, no. Like, what did I do? Like, I had the weirdest, most uncomfortable feeling of just sharing this and wondering what people would think. And, you know, it's not something you want to be like, hey, guys, like, my body doesn't work for me.

Right. Yeah. There is that sense of just having to sit with that feeling of. you know, where your body feels like it failed you. But when I was doing it, I think because we were still so in the mix of it, I mean, really, the night before we went to the hospital to have Georgie, you know, I'm sitting there and still scared. You know, so it was really the whole length of it. The last episode was the only episode I felt truly happy and relaxed. You know, because you get to the point of, and again, levels, right?

Like, you have someone who's 39 weeks pregnant with a healthy pregnancy. That's a way different story than when I was back, you know, at the heartbeat scan. But at the same time, all of that trauma from pregnancy, I hated the pregnancy portion. I mean, I loved my surrogate, but I was, I lost 10 pounds throughout the whole thing, the scans, the appointments. I had gotten so much bad news for so long that it was still not, it was surreal when these appointments would go okay. And it was almost like it didn't sink in. And I was in that same cycle of what's going to go wrong. Something's going wrong. Something's going to happen. So, you know, even at that end point, you know, I was worried about stillbirth. I was worried about all of these

things that, I mean, I couldn't sleep at night. It was just a form of anxiety. That was really hard to deal with. And when, you know, it's funny, the birth of Georgie, my husband was like filming me from behind and I was like part of it. And I, if you watch it, I am sobbing like uncontrollably. It almost looks like I'm laughing, but I'm sobbing uncontrollably because, and it's not taking away from my daughter's beautiful birth, but it was relief. Like when she came out and was crying, I.

I was the first breath I think I actually took in five years. And I was crying so hard because I think there was a huge part of me that thought like as she was going to come out, it was going to be not okay. So it was so overwhelming in the moment when they were like, she's okay. Right. A healthy baby. But that's how messed up this whole thing had got me that I really, until that moment, I don't think I was. you know, relaxed or truly happy or present and all of those things. That's, I mean, an amazing, really inspiring story, I think, just to, you know, seeing her

probably for the first time and realizing it was, it was real. You said like it was the first moment I could be like happy. Yeah. And I think that's something that people in it kind of feel like they struggle with. And I think in the beginning, maybe I felt like this a little bit more, but this feeling of I don't think I can be happy until I get this thing. But then it's like, well, what if this takes me, you know, five, six, seven, however many years or never happens, am I saying that I'll just never be happy? Like, how did you have moments? So interesting. I find this conversation. I could talk

to you about this specific conversation and idea for hours because I've thought a lot about it and now reflecting on my life now and from before Georgie. It's very interesting because I did get a point like halfway through and especially with my husband, just my husband and I trying to find our own vibe together because, you know, he was a little more optimistic and he still wanted to live life and be happy. And I really was so, you know, to me, it was like an Olympic event. You know, I was training for this. It's like, don't, we're not going on vacation. We're not, no time for smiles. Like, get to the rink and practice. Like, we need a baby, you know. So I feel like, you know, we had very different approaches and we really had to come together for our marriage, for just,

again, being happy in life where I eventually got to the point where I was like, I need to enjoy other parts of my life. I need to find happiness somewhere. So while I was going through the end part of the journey, I really do think that at the time I thought I was coming to grips a little bit with, you know, my journey and being able to separate the two and still living life and still being happy. And I do think I made progress in that area. But what's funny is now with, you know, my daughter is almost seven months old. I like put up a post the other day. And it was really interesting to think about, I have never felt this kind of happiness. And it's not, and it's, of course, her beautiful presence and the birth of her has changed so much in our life.

But like I wrote, like the birth of her was almost like I was being reborn again. And, you know, I feel like in parenthood, everyone talks, oh, you lose yourself. And it really is. It is so hard to find who you are in this next phase as well. But in a way, I feel like I'm more myself than I've ever been because I lost myself so completely for five years. And I don't think I really understood that to just like a few weeks ago where I was like, wow, like, I thought I was doing a good job at being happy. But now, like, when I'm on a walk, like, things look more colorful. Or when I go on a date night, date nights are way different now.

And, you know, personally, just for me, like, put aside the baby, really just I'm more focused on work. I'm more inspired for, you know, thinking of work ideas. is I, I'm social again in a different way. And it's like all the things that like with a newborn, you probably would say I have no time for. But compared to my infertility journey, it's, it's way easier. So do you feel like you wish you had been like tried to be more happy before or just wasn't going to happen for you until?

Personally, I think I tried my artist. You know, I really tried to separate it. I really thought that I was doing a good job at that. I really thought I was happy. And I do think in a sense I really was able to do that. I think there was a difference. Maybe I was able to practice gratitude more because I really did feel that way. I was like, this is not unique to me.

There are so many people on this journey. You know, I had a friend die, you know, very young die of breast cancer during this time. And, you know, things like that put everything into perspective, right? Like, of course, you want a baby and you want a family. But, oh, my goodness, at the time, I still had a great job. I have an amazing husband, a good marriage, beautiful friends, you know, health, more than anything I had, you know, like I was healthy and I have good health. Like, you know, those things were always the thread of like how to be happy in my day because I really appreciated that. And I was able to see that this wasn't the end of the world.

But if you were to ask me, was I truly experiencing happiness? I would have said yes at the time, but now I think I really wasn't quite there on the happiness scale, maybe the gratitude scale and perspective scale, but really living in joy, I don't know if I was, if I'm being completely honest. I'd love to say that I figured it out, but I don't know that I did. No, I think that, I mean, that's very honest. And I think it's like there's a refreshing nature to that because I think people kind of feel that way and they feel almost like guilty for not being happy.

but I think that what you're saying is very true. Like grateful is almost like at certain points, like the best you can do. Right. And that's okay also if you're not, you know, feeling your best, most happiest stuff. Do you feel like this experience has changed you like positively in any way? It's so interesting. I've never been a person like everything's meant to be. You know, I wish this never happened. You know, like no one should ever. Regret every minute. I would never say like I'm so glad this happened because of this. I've learned this. Right. You know, hopefully I was going to be able to evolve as a person without this.

But I do think if there are silver linings through this, it's changed me so dramatically in positive ways of, you know, acceptance, like being a, you know, dropping into more feminine side of who I am and not just the masculine of like make it work, practice harder, you know. So I think that I've learned a lot about myself. I think that because of this, I feel this, I mean, again, the community part of it of connecting with all these people has been, like I said, the most fulfilling thing. I think there is something to be said about when, you know, if you do go on to have a child,

and I'm sure every parent that hasn't gone through infertility would be like, no, I'm grateful for my child too. Like, of course, like children are miracles and everyone is just so grateful and in awe and all of that. But I do, and especially connecting with people who have gone through long. journeys and then move on to parenthood. We all have that similar thread that that's, you know, you just, the level of gratitude is, I mean, overwhelming, you know, like, and it, and it lasts. It's not just the first day she's born. It's like when she's crying in the middle of the

night. And she literally is like pooping on me. And I feel, you know, and I think back to who I was before. And I feel like I'd be like, oh my God, why is, you know, like, okay. Like, and those emotions are fine too, but it is so strange that somehow I'm still so connected to the infertility part of me that I don't feel that. Instead, I'm like, yes, like, I wanted this. Right. It's happening finally. Like, I'm in like that hard mom phase.

Like, that's what I wanted. Like, this is amazing. So I do think, like, that is something that's come out of it. And I don't know if, you know, just getting pregnant on day one, what I, you know, would have been like. you know, through more difficult things. Of course, you know, like I said, every parent is grateful and excited for, you know, parenthood. But I do think there is this extra little excitement you get that you look at her. And I mean, sometimes I'm still like I'm not sure it's happening, right? Like I, and even after all I'm like, she really yours, right? Yeah.

Like this feels weird. I feel like I'm not like, like, is this a dream? Like, am I really living? this life. Right. And then, I mean, I haven't gotten this far, but I think I saw that there were some episodes in season two where you talk about thinking about another baby. Does that feel like the edge is taken off a little bit? Because you have Georgie? Yes. I think the edges definitely taken off. I think there was just so much riding on that last surrogacy journey because no one really had that many answers. And of course, we just thought I couldn't keep a pregnancy. But we really could have, you know, my biggest fear was we put the embryo into the surrogate and the same thing happened to the surrogate, which then would mean that our embryos are an issue. So there was just so much

riding on that journey. Like the stakes were so high for that heartbeat scan. Right. That now, you know, I definitely feel a little bit more at ease. But it's funny. It's like scary. Like sometimes I, like we're starting the journey, like finding a surrogate and all of that. And it's whenever I had to it, I realize I'm really like pushing it off because I think there is still some of that, you know, appointments and going back to that life of like, is it going to work and what's going to have, you know, and it's just hard to like ever really enjoy that again, you know, like. Right. Like I think, you know, the journey of my surrogate being pregnant, there were a lot of beautiful moments. But I can say like my miscarriage is my, my journey.

really took away the innocence and excitement around pregnancy. It really did steal that from me because I think you somewhat have to be a little naive, a little bit innocent going into this because if not, it's really hard, you know, to not look back on your own journey. And, you know, I didn't even want to listen to the heartbeat when she was pregnant, which is a weird thing because I think it was so tied into fear and even hearing it was like anxiety like made me anxious even though I should be excited to hear it. Right. I didn't hear it. But the appointments, the scans, you know, I think I was just always waiting for bad news. And it's hard to reframe that. And I mean, that's the crazy thing about IVF too. It's for infertility. Sometimes I'm like, you know,

I always be like, oh, Murphy's law, but it really is like a cruel, joke that IVF plays on you when there's so much failure. And you almost think like I'm, I'm, like, that's time for a win. Right. I'm due for one. Not in IVF world. Like those infertility gods are like, no, no, we're going to give you like six failures in a row. And so then you just get so failing that it's almost, like I said, it's just so surreal. If they say something's okay, you almost don't believe it. Right. It's super like PTSD. Like the way you describe like, you know, even like again, you guys, go listen to unexpected. Like the way you describe this like, just the doctor looking for the heartbeat. Right. It's like a traumatic experience once you've

like had it. Just the silence of like a search is like, you know, again, something so pointed that you that you described in such like beautiful detail. I mean, it's like horrible, but it's beautiful. One thing that I do love though about your show. And again, I think, I was hesitant to, I think I was a little hesitant to listen also because like it just seemed so like intense and serious. But like when you listen, you, I love the like report that you have with your husband. I feel like you guys have like such a great chemistry and the show, even though it's about obviously like very serious, very intense topics. Like there's moments of laughter and light. And that's what I love about it because I really do think you can find like there's a joke in everything.

like even you talking about like your 40th birthday getting like your surgery and that you have a balloon inside you. Yeah. It's just like it's like a very niche. Like I get it. But like I don't know what I mean. Like so there's just like you have to laugh at a lot of the absurdity of a lot of this stuff. And I think that you have to.

There has that. Yeah. Yeah. You have to. And I think like for us, you know, and it's kind of back to that happiness thing, you know, analyzing of how happy I was, how not happy or sad I was. But I do think that with Todd, we were able to find the humor and the laughter and just laughing at how messed up it all was. Because if we didn't have that report, if we didn't have that release, it would have been, you know, so depressing.

And I think we wanted to infuse that into the podcast, too, for listeners. So it wasn't so heavy. And it wasn't so clinical. and we brought a lot of our own personal story into it too because that we really wanted to depict how our life was at that time. And of course, it sucks with infertility, but there's still funny, fun, you know, happy moments. Right. Yeah. It wasn't like they were in a cave for five years. There was still some things to laugh about even though obviously it's like a little clouded by the situation. So I just love the show so much. And anyone who's,

who's like, if you're going through this and you like, you're, you're scared to listen. Like it's such a, I was, I was a little scared to listen. It was such a good show. Everything you're thinking will be articulated. Like I now feel like, again, like that feeling of other people get these like micro kind of niche moments that you feel like only you would understand. I thought it was like such an incredible show. I laughed. I cried. It was like, you really are doing such a service for a subset of women. And anyone, who like even is curious, I think about infertile habit as a friend who's going in it. It's hard to understand. But I think your show really, really helps people understand. So thank you so much

for doing it. For the next few weeks, we'll be bringing you a segment called positive reinforcement presented by first response. We know that waiting for the positive test is exciting, but also stressful. No matter what you're struggling with on your journey to conceive, we're here with a little positive reinforcement. The information provided herein is intended for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your position or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or the use of medical devices. Before we go, because you just offer some words of encouragement to anyone who's in the thick

of it or going through it, whatever level they're at. I would say for encouragement is, you know, mainly the emotional side of it of I see you. I know what you're feeling. I am rooting for you and that, you know, for you to even be at whatever point you are in this journey, one thing I know, I don't know you, but you are so strong. So incredibly, physically, emotionally, mentally strong. And that's coming from, you know, someone who trained to become an Olympic athlete and views these two journeys of, you know, winning an Olympic medal and surviving infertility as incomparable, like Olympic medal infertility. You know, it is that hard.

that, you know, to get through what you're getting through and just surviving is you just have to take a moment to realize how strong you are. And that wherever your journey goes, you know, there is, and I hate saying this because for someone who's on the other side, it's like annoying, but there can be light. And, you know, I'm not saying it's always going to be that. maybe someone's story doesn't have that. But for someone who was in darkness for so long, where I really truly thought that there was never going to be light, that there was no answer, that there is sometimes an answer. You know, there is sometimes an avenue. Maybe it's not the avenue you originally thought. You know, I never thought I would not be pregnant. I never thought I

have a surrogate carry my baby, but you find a way. And there is light, you know, there is light. So I do think that, or I at least hope that anyone that's listening to my story, you know, either feels seen, validated, less alone, finds hope, whatever it is, because that's the least I could do to give back to this community because that's like, for me now, I am so passionate about infertility and IVF and everyone who's who's been through it. I just feel like my heart is just always so open and feels the ache so deeply. Like I'll get a message from someone. And I, I almost am taken back because I'm like, I feel that feeling like, oh my God, I just want this so bad for someone. And, you know, I do hope that now I can try to give back as much as I can

and help people through fertility grants and, you know, have the ability and opportunity to continue their journey for an opportunity because, you know, that's where I was very lucky is I had the opportunity to continue because if it was a one and done, it would have never happened for us. So I really hope that I can, you know, find ways to give back. Well, thank you so much for coming on. That's great advice and great, you know, just great motivation. I think that you've really like painted a great picture of the experience and even like the light at the end of the tunnel.

And I think it's a very hopeful story. Thank you to our sponsor First Response. For nearly 20 years, First Response has supported Resolve's mission to empower the infertility community through providing resources and support for individuals and couples on their path to parenthood. Resolve.org is home to many resources for the infertility community, including free support groups, books, and more. Resolve is dedicated to ensuring that all people challenged in their family building journey are empowered by knowledge, supported by community, united by advocacy, and inspired to act. All first response pregnancy test products are available for purchase at all major retailers in store and online. Be sure to pick one up today. So thanks so much for sharing that. And thank you for being a great role model, both, you know, in the Olympics and, you know, sports,

but also like to just a regular, like everyday women going through it. So this was awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. Of course. And we'll be back next time on Baby Steps. Baby Steps is produced by me, Jordana Abraham, and Shannon Sisson. Editing by Jorge Morales Picoe. Guest booking by Ali Friedlander.

And be sure to follow at Everything's Fine on Instagram. Thank you to our sponsor First Response. A lot of us test more than once. That's why First Response created the triple check pregnancy test kit, which includes three different tests all in one box. The kit includes the early results pregnancy test, one digital pregnancy test, plus one rapid result pregnancy test

that gives you fast results in just one minute on the day of your missed period or any day thereafter. Each test in the kit offers a different way to learn your results, so when the time comes, you feel as confident as possible. All first response pregnancy test products are available for purchase at all major retailers in store and online. Be sure to pick one up today. Betches.