Oversharing - Baby Steps: Overcoming The Stigmas Of Infertility & Surrogacy || Season 3 Ep.6

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

After two episodes full of information on infertility, Dr. Naomi and Jordana are together in studio to get personal with virtual guest, host of the podcast Ladygang, and actress/singer/dancer: Becca Tobin. Becca has been very public with her infertility journey, but today she goes deep about how this experience helped fortify her relationship with her partner and prepare them both for the challenges of parenthood. She also talks more about her use of a surrogate, and how that decision challenged her emotionally and physically. With wit and humility Becca opens up and shares how her path to motherhood was a challenge worth taking. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Baby Steps. I'm Trudana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And today we are joined by Becca Tobin. Becca, it's so good to see you again.

I know we had previously done Lady Gang and you have done you up. and just an excellent podcaster. Thank you. And so it's so great to be back here with you talking about pretty different topics than we talked about last time. Yeah, slightly different, you know. Less unhinged, hopefully. We'll see. Sometimes we get a little, you know, unhinged.

I feel left out. What was so unhinged about the last one? Well, the Lady Gang podcast is just all, like the three of us are pretty, I mean, we've been doing it for 10 years. So at this point, it's like we forget anybody's listening. Yes. You know, and it's just us talking and we're out, you know, we're a little crazy outrageous and we're all very different personalities. And it's just, it's fun. And we had so much fun on you up.

Like, it was a really fun time because we've a lot of single ladies that listen to Lady Gang and the three of us are all married. So it was nice to get like the male perspective and Jordana's perspective and really like dig in on the dating world because we don't go there often. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. We went through like all like just funny stuff about. and everything like that and kind of what led us to where we are, which leads us to where we are, right? We are. So I'm looking forward to hearing about like your story because I think it's going to help

a lot of the listeners on, you know, we talk about on baby steps any kind of like unsuper conventional path to parenthood. And you had one. And I remember hearing, I remember you kind of touched on it very briefly on the show. And I really wanted to hear more. And I was like, I almost thought about damning you. But I was like, maybe we'll just have her on baby steps. And she can hear and she can give us the whole story.

So yeah, can you take us through like when you first thought about having kids? Like, just take us through the whole story of how you got to conceive your son. So my husband and I got married in 2016. We both were very eager to become parents. You know, I turned 30 like a month after our wedding. and it just felt like the right time. We waited about a year and we started trying and I got pregnant right away. Like first try, I was so excited.

You know, my mom and my sister had had really good luck also getting pregnant and successful pregnancies. So I just kind of had this idea in my mind that mine would really replicate both of theirs, even though I was probably like 10 years older than my mom was when I started trying. And then my sister was, I think she was like 25 or something. she's she was a little bit younger as well so i didn't really take that to consideration with like how much older my eggs were at the time and so i got pregnant um and we found out um after the nipt test um that we had a chromosomal abnormality we did a CVS to confirm um and we decided to

terminate the pregnancy um it was just a and that's obviously a very personal decision and i think that there's no right or wrong decision. It's what's right for a couple and a family. And I actually had some family friends. I was really fortunate to have had some family friends who had siblings with this chromosomal abnormality, a very wide range on the spectrum. And it was really valuable to talk to somebody who had firsthand experience with it. And we made the choice that, you know, these tests exist for a reason. Sometimes it's to prepare you for what's to come. And sometimes it's to empower you with information to make a choice to that's best for your family to continue on with the pregnancy or to try again.

We did that. It took me years to be really honest about that choice. Like I called it like the, I think I used like really interesting ways of saying like that pregnancy ended or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But now I feel it's really important to be really just upfront and honest about it because I felt so much shame around it and I really was worried about judgment. but the shame and the judgment comes from all these people out there who are just not talking about it. And not everybody needs to.

I mean, I'm in a position where I have a pretty thick skin. And I feel very confident in the decision I made. I have no regrets. So I was like, this is, I have a platform. I have experience. I'm just, I'm going to do it. And it feels good. I mean, it's still really scary.

Like, I'm sure when this comes out, I'm still going to like, you know, clench my butt cheeks and be like, who's coming after me? You know, who's, like, going to scream at me with some sort of like, mama love Jesus. lover whatever in their profile. You know, it's like a, that sounded really condescending. But it's always the people who are very, very, very religious who come after me for the decision decision that I made. And it's tough. But then, long story short, I tried again.

I had an early miscarriage. And then my OBJN said to me, I think that this earlier miscarriage usually means it's again an egg quality situation. Like I think that you should go. She said, financially you can afford to do this. most people cannot take advantage, make embryos. Because if you don't want to go through all of this, you know, over again, you want more than one child at this point.

You are over 30. This exists for a reason, just like all these tests. So my husband and I just decided to make embryos. And we did that. It was actually like a pretty not easy because nothing and this is easy. It's all relative. But it was actually, I was very scared to do it. I didn't know what to expect with my body.

And I already was experiencing a lot of trauma left over from, even though I terminated the pregnancy out of my own choice, there's still so much trauma associated with having carried a pregnancy and getting bad news and then making decisions and having CVS's. And there's weeks where you're just in limbo and just, you know, it's, it was a bout of major depression. And I still carried that on. And I thought,

if I can eliminate any of that heartache or stress, making embryos sounds like a really smart thing to do. So I did it. I'm glad that I did it. I had a wonderful doctor in San Diego, Dr. Johnishman, and he held my hand through the whole thing. And he was actually pleasantly surprised that we did make some healthy embryos, which was super exciting. I went to transfer one of the embryos back in 2020. And I had a really, terrible reaction to the synthetic hormones that are that you take for the transfer of the embryo. So we had to pull the plug and cancel the transfer, kind of get into the nitty gritty of like what was going on with my body. There were a lot of tests.

There were a lot of specialists. There are a lot of people. It's like a hypersensitivity. And sometimes it's sort of like a phantom thing that there were ways to go around it. There were ways to try and see if maybe my body could accept the synthetic hormones, even bioidentical hormones. I'm sorry. I'm speaking like such weird terminology.

But what was, do you mind me asking? What was like the reaction you were getting to? So every day I would take the progesterone shot every night. And I think it was for five days before the transfer. At night I took it. And within five hours like on the dot, I would wake up shaking, convulsing fever. Like it was couldn't stand up straight. It was like, was it a contusion from the injection?

Like all of these things that we went through. And it was just turns out it's like, and quite honestly, it took me. me like going to Reddit to really like start to on like peel the onion back of what the fuck was happening. And it's just a very rare thing that can happen with with your body. And it's like a hypersensitivity to the hormone. And there was an option to do like an unmedicated cycle. But again, I didn't have many embryos. I was already 33, maybe 34. And it was like, am I going to waste, not waste, but am I going to risk putting an embryo into a body that's not really like believing that it's pregnant? Because the progesterone is what tells your body that's pregnant.

If I'm not getting that in my system, what's going to happen? I don't have a lot of time. I don't have a lot of embryos. So this is a really, really long story and a long way of getting to the point where I just threw my hands in the air and I was like, I'm so fucking done. Like I have tried. I have done the things. Am I being punished for the decision that I made? like the darkest thoughts that would go through my head. And finally, I had a very good friend of mine that I knew from living in New York doing musical theater together. And I reconnected with him. And in the 20 years that had been since we'd seen each other, he started an egg donor and surrogacy agency with his husband.

And it was just such a weird kismet thing where we're sitting and we're chatting. And I'm telling him about where I'm at. And he's like, babe, this is why we have these advances. there are women out there who enjoy being pregnant, who want to provide for their families, and either who want to have a double income and work throughout the year and also carry someone else's baby or who stay at home with their kids and want to have another stream of income for an entire year. And I was like, well, is this like Handmaid's Tale? I was so ignorant. And also people around me use that reference so often that I'm like, that's like the one thing when people

talk about it and who don't know anything about it. I'm like, just avoid. talking about handmade style. It's quite different. But I know you want to go there. Yeah. Yeah. We explored it. And actually my goddaughter was born via surrogacy. She's two two dads. And so it wasn't that foreign to me, but I just assumed that that was just what game ended because there was no womb to really put the baby in. So it was like a no brainer. And so for me, it felt like, well, I have this womb. Like we don't know, you know, is this is this like a, a weird thing to do. And it's really, it's unconventional for sure. It's getting more popular. I mean, this was in 2021 that we matched with our surrogate and did the embryo transfer of my son and he was born in

22. And since then, I'm so happy and so thrilled that more, you know, heterosexual couples are using this when and being vocal about it because I think it happened a lot in, you know, behind. the scenes and a lot of people didn't talk about it and a lot of people felt shame about it. And again, it's just one of those things that I've felt more and more comfortable and confident talking about it being very loud and proud in the way that I made my family. Were you open about this? Like how much were you, because you have a big platform, right, right? Between the podcast, Instagram, like everything like that. Are you sharing like this whole thing all along the way? Or are you sharing when he's finally here? Like, how did you decide how much to share of that with like

both friends and family and also just like people who follow you online. I'm the type where I will share everything eventually. I don't like to share when I'm in it. I think it's just a very raw place that I was in. And I didn't want any input from anybody that was a stranger. I was sharing with some close friends and family. But I always eventually come around. Like I can't keep secrets from it.

I'm like just an overshare, as you can tell. And I also feel like that's sort of this gift that I've been given. is like, you know, the thing that made me like really awkward at dinner parties is the thing that's given me this beautiful career. And so why would I not just have that spill over and whoever, you know, and having the platform that I do, I just feel like the positive feedback that I get from women who go through something similar, it totally outshines any of the trolls that come after me for whatever judgment that they have, not having been in my shoes. So I've just, I've shared it all. I'm going to continue to share it all.

You know, like my husband and I are in the midst of like, do we have a second? Can we have a second? Have we tried to have a second? And has it been failing? I mean, that'll all come out. It's just in the middle of it all. I have to like sort through my own feelings and be with my own therapist and psychiatrists and all the people to like really support me so that when I do come out

and talk about everything, I feel pretty confident and firm, you know. The emotion that I feel like you're so wise in this and the emotion that comes up and I'd love for you to share with me and Jordana and the listeners around that shame piece because that's a really sticky one. And I heard you mention it twice, one in terms of, you know, terminating the first pregnancy and then this whole handmade's tale thing, which is, makes you, I'm sure, feel like there's this moral judgment around using another woman's body in this way. So I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about how you kind of, you know, your journey through that and how you kind of came out because the idea that you share it, that's the cure in some

ways for, yeah, for shame and sharing it on this level. So I would love to hear you talk more about if you are open to it, that process of how you got there. I always think about the times in my life, like in my early 20s. And, you know, I had an unwanted pregnancy at 23. I wrote about it in our book that we wrote. It was like personal essays of, you know, what of our lives and lessons learned. And And I had been trying my whole life since I was 10 years old to get on Broadway. And the day that I got the call that I was finally going to be on Broadway, I also took a pregnancy test and found out that I was pregnant. And it was definitely unplanned. It was, you know, it was pretty shocking.

It was like the best day and the worst day of my life. And I just, I'll never forget, like, I never wavered. I never wavered. And people do. And there's no judgment there. but I was like, I didn't just work my ass off my whole fucking life to get to this point of, I've reached the goal. It's like being,

going after to be in the NBA. Like if some guy got a call that he finally got called up to the NBA and men could get pregnant, nobody would ever in a million years judge that man for deciding to chase after that dream and, you know, make a decision to not follow in the other one. So it's, and what I did for a living was singing and dancing. And the show I was going into, I was playing a stripper.

Like I was in lingerie. So there wasn't even a world that I could take that job and also carry a baby. And so, and I'm of the mindset that I don't believe that is a baby. There is, there's just, that's just not, that's not, there's nothing that's going to change my mind about that. So it was a, it was a fertilized egg at that point that I decided to terminate. And the reason that I didn't waver and the reason that I felt minimal shame about it was because I had had a friend go through something very similar. And I remember her coming to me almost exactly a year before and saying to me, I got pregnant. I can't be pregnant.

I'm too young. I'm not ready. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just remember feeling like so much compassion and understanding and being like, of course. You don't even have to make any excuse whatsoever. If you don't want this, you don't want this. And that's why we have all of these opportunities. to handle something like this.

There was a place in New York City. I'll never forget it. It was like the most wonderful place. I wish I could remember the name of it. But it was like every woman in there, it was like hidden inside of some high rise. And there's no protesters. And every woman in there was like so kind.

And it wasn't, it was such a compassionate, empathetic experience. And I went with her. And I'm just grateful and lucky that my first experience with that, with terminating a pregnancy was that one. So that the year later, when it happened to me, I felt no shame because I stood on the other side of it and I watched it and I observed it.

And I was like, I didn't feel anything toward my friend or any of these people that was anything other than positive and understanding. So why can't I hold that for myself? So with all of this and even with, you know, the surrogacy part of it, there are still moments. I'm not perfect and I haven't done, like, I don't know if you ever do enough work for yourself to not have those little like

hiccups of guilt or shame or whatever, but I, I'm very careful with when my husband and I went through this process of matching with a surrogate, I felt and I, you know, I, I know this unless she's absolutely lying and is the best actor ever. Like, we both, myself and this woman and wanted this to work out equally. We wanted this so badly for her family. She wanted to do it for my family and vice versa. It was such a beautiful exchange that every time I feel judgment or guilt or anything, I always go back to like that internal feeling of like just warmth and

positivity and gratitude on both sides. I mean, what she's giving up is so much greater than any amount of money. Like, it's not lost on me that, like, it is an exchange. It is a transaction. And unfortunately, like, you know, there's no amount of money in the world that could justify a woman taking your baby, holding your baby, carrying your baby in her body and sacrificing all that that is and taking that risk. But as equal as it possibly can be is how it is set up.

It sounds like you have a really good relationship with who used as your surrogate. Yeah. And like, so when you were like, when you were like, looking for a surrogate, like, what were you, what was that process like? How was like, how did you, like, how did you come up with the criteria that you were looking for? So the agency, my friends who started this agency, it's called Elevate. And they do a really beautiful job of bringing women, you know, they screen all these women. And they said, for every hundred people that apply to be surrogates or gestational carriers, maybe one makes it through. You have to have had a really

smooth pregnancy, a really smooth delivery, like very minimal complications. You know, you have had to obviously carry your own biological children. And the stability, the psych evaluations, all of those things are done before you're even presented with any of the candidates. So I felt really comfortable in knowing that at that point it was just like a vibe. You know, it's like so silly to say, but I'm like, they did all the hard work. They knew what her deliveries were like they had all of her notes from all of her, you know, hospitals. And we got really lucky because the first woman that we matched with was we got on a Zoom. It was kind of COVID times-ish.

I was living in Vancouver working on a TV show at the time. And my husband was with me. So we couldn't do anything in person. Like the border was closed. It was like these really crazy circumstances. So we zoomed with her and her partner. And I just felt this really calm feeling because obviously I was so. so anxious. I had never done anything like this. I still wasn't like fully, you know, sign on the

dotted line. I'm going to proceed with this transaction or this, um, with surrogacy in general. But I just felt really comfortable and she was a really loving mother and had a lot going on. And she lived really close to where we were living at the time. And not that that's, that's a bonus. because usually it's it's you can't really you can't minimize like you can't how do I say this it would be really hard to find somebody who lived geographically in a in a convenient place for an intended parent it's so it's challenging it's still something that you have to um accept that sometimes they're going to be across the country from you like sometimes there's going to be a woman carrying your baby on the east coast when you live on the west coast and that's sort of the norm um that you

you have to just be prepared for. And with us, we were like, how lucky are we that this person lives less than an hour away from us? And I don't know. I really, there wasn't anything on paper that I could say that I looked for or asked for. I just felt like, I felt calm. Like, I just really checked into my gut. That's great. I mean, yeah, it sounds like they did a pretty thorough betting process. So you knew anyone you were going to meet was like going to have a real background check. And this was the first person that you spoke with. Yeah. There really is. out to be like an energy exchange there. Like you said, even just the process of knowing and feeling like she wanted this to work for you and she was rooting for you and the baby. And even,

I don't know if you believe it, but there is like a literal energy exchange. Like you're in her body and like there is that exchange. So it's really, I think that probably was part of the healing of any of this like, you know, nonsense around making it just feel less transnational. transactional and more of like a relationship. Are you going to so because she lives so close, are you like, did you go to like all the appointments? Are you like, what was your like level of involvement there? Yeah, I got so lucky because really the, they laid the groundwork to be like, hey, you may not

be able to do this if she doesn't live where you live and you, you know, you kind of have to trust or fly in or whatever. You know, it's a lot of logistics. But I was able to go to, I did not go to the transfer of the embryo, which was so bizarre because I was still in Canada. I was like on FaceTime watching like our little embryo like travel down the tube. It was such a weird thing. And then, but after that I went to, we had a really mutual decision with where she was going to be,

you know, which doctor she was going to be seeing and which hospital she was going to deliver at. And it was really like a beautiful partnership. Like it was, I guess it was three of us, but you know, it's like women do everything. Of course. Yes. Also, my husband was really amazing. all of this because he was like, I'm going to defer to you. Like, I've watched you go through hell for the last five years. You deserve to have whatever it is that you that you want and we just want a baby.

And the goal is to have a baby. And so like, I'm going to follow your lead on how you want to have this baby. So he really got out of my way. And I see that sounds kind of shitty to say. But I do think that sometimes men insert themselves a little too aggressively into like how they're families are going to to come to them, you know? Right. And how and what and with their partners, the expectations. I think it's really, I mean, my husband just watched me go through so much. And I don't know. I was just very grateful. So totally. I mean, like when you, when you, I mean, because you said like you, when it didn't, when the progesterone wasn't working, you were like, I don't, I don't want to like experiment more with this. And like, yeah, that's

probably a pivotal moment where like he could have maybe tried to push you to like try it a different way. But it sounds like he was just super supportive of you being like, I'm done. For sure. And he had his normal feelings. Like he was entitled to feeling the grief of what that would be like to not feel your wife's belly and like feel the first kick. And, you know, he expressed that he was going to grieve those moments. And similarly to me grieving those moments. Like it was very much, it's not like he was like, yay, let's do it. I'm going to go and really execute this immediately. There was a period of time where we had to really be honest with one another.

And he was honest and he's like, I'm not going to tell you that this does not make me sad, but I'm also not going to stand in the way of or force you to do anything. He's like, I know I want to be a dad. I know I want to have a family with you. And if this is the way that we're going to do it, like I am on board. So it's, it's, it was a really amazing thing to do. And, and, you know, we both come from, I mean, we're both from Atlanta. We're both from the South. We are, we were born and raised in the Bible Belt. There's still people in our lives who are still very much, you know, into what that means

culturally. And so I have to give him a million props for standing in his power and saying, you may not agree with what this is. And it wasn't immediate family of his. His family was absolutely wonderful. But, you know, there's still people in your lives when you grow up in a place like this. Right. Who are going to have a lot to say. And it would have been really, really hard, difficult for to be, have been in his shoes, I think.

I think he shielded me from like a lot of comments and a lot of maybe some judgment. But yeah, we just did it. It felt. And really what goes, what happens in a marriage through fertility. is can be so gnarly. I mean, I'm not going to say that we didn't have the most horrible couple years. Like, it was truly something I felt so, like, cheated out of being a newlywed. Like, I feel like we are just now with a three and a half year old out of this, like,

craziness of being married for maybe a year and then getting pregnant and going straight into like what that experience was. And so we had to be like really in hindsight we could have been more compassionate with one another. Like what we went through is not really what most newlyweds are going through. And we had a really hard time. I mean, after my first pregnancy and the termination of that and then getting pregnant the second time. And even before I found out or even before I miscarried the second pregnancy, I hit a crazy, crazy bout of depression. a depressive state where I was going to a psychiatrist weekly and I was like,

what is wrong with me? I am pregnant. It's what I want to have happen. And yet I am not having, I'm not having suicidal ideations, but I'm standing here like on a street being like, I think it would be fine like if it just, if the car just kind of hit me.

And I was pregnant. And I was like, what the fuck is wrong with me? And I was going to the psychiatrist and thank God for this woman. And she really did save my life. But my husband was living with that. Like it's just, it was such a gnarly couple of years. I mean, we went to the doctor and we had our ultrasound.

It was seven weeks. And my doctor was like, I just, I don't see a heartbeat. And I started sobbing. And my husband started crying. And she left the room. And I was like, inside, I was like crying because I, not because we lost the baby. Because I had to start over again. Yeah.

Because I had to do it all over again and because I had been so miserable for the past couple years that I was like, I don't have what it takes to do whatever this is again. So if you could imagine like what that does to a marriage, it was pretty, it was pretty terrible. And I think that like where we're at now, I'm so proud, but a lot of couples don't get there. And I do not blame them. Yeah. Is there anything hindsight being 2020 looking back that you would have done differently with communication or between the two of you or he could have done differently that, I mean, there's no way around it. It's going to be painful. You're both going through grief. I always say that's when couples break when they're both drowning at the same

time. And they're both kind of like, I need a life preserver. No, I need a life preserver. And all you can do is keep treading water. But is there anything that you think you could, you know, words of wisdom that you can give people on like how you might have handled it differently or just kind of put your head down and go through it same way you did it the first time. I mean, I would say that it is such a like survival mode kind of thing. However, I think we probably, in hindsight, we should have been talking to someone together. We should have been with a therapist. We should have been with anybody who a neutral party who can just like hear both of us and translate for one another. And My husband's a typical male where he has a ton of emotion, but he doesn't even like know how to label it.

It's like, it's like, he's like, I'm like, he's like, I'm like, he's like, I don't feel well. I'm like, well, what hurts? He's like, I don't know. I'm like, how are men so dumb? So like, he's just like that. And so I think that he, I know, I know he was going through so much. But I didn't know how to reach him. He knew that I was going through so much. And I think sometimes men are so scared to, because they're like, I don't have a leg to stand on. I don't have a uterus. I can't carry a baby. I don't know what that's like.

I don't know what it's like to take, you know, whatever the pill is, not before a DNC, like to do the mitrope. I can never remember. Something with an M. Yeah, something with them. To, you know, have your body expel the embryo or, you know, to go into a, whatever. So, I mean, I had to, I'll never forget, I had to take that on a trip to Santa Barbara. And we were, this was after my miscarriage and my body, like, would not let go. Like, it was just

one of those things where I was like, oh, cool. So this is also part of the thing that nobody talks about. Like, you get the bad news. There's no heartbeat. And then everybody's like watching you to start, for lack of a better term, bleed. And my body's like, nope, you are, we're still keeping on. We're hanging on. Yeah. And so, you know, I took the pill. It's New Year's Eve. We're in Santa Barbara. And I'm like telling my husband, I'm like, just go. Go like, I'm going to be in the hotel room. I'm prepared for whatever this is. And, you know, go golf.

And like for years, I held resentment that he went golfing, even though I told him to go fucking golfing. Like, it's like stuff like that where we could have used somebody to sit there and be like, he listened to the words that you said. That's what men do. They are very literal. He couldn't have known hours later you would be like, you know, devastated in a hotel room thinking you were abandoned and like, you know, make up this whole story in my mind

that he didn't really love me. like I was a complete headcase at the time. And so I wish that we had had somebody come in and like hold our hands through it. Yeah. But I mean in some ways I would imagine obvious like there's something to going because at this point I don't know like if anything happened before that was ever like nearly as big or as heavy or as like traumatic as this. But do you feel like it at the end of the day like going through this you did learn these things about each other? And like because I felt that way too. like you kind of like, we're sort of forced to learn how to communicate on something you might have not learned for like years down the road when something else kind of like traumatic maybe

happened where it's like now you kind of know if something like if I need if I need help or if I'm in this place, I need to communicate this way or like just helping you become stronger and like know for the future whenever things get bad. For sure. I think that that's the silver lining. It's, you know, it's, um, we went through some hard stuff. early on and we did learn a lot about one another and like what to do what not to do and um you know and then you have like and then if you're lucky you have a baby and then you have a small toddler and it's like you know I feel like it can be challenging with my son and you know he's crazy and wild and we love him he's wonderful and he's what we wanted and spent a lot of money and time getting him here so I think

that that's also like part of why when my husband and I are in the trenches with this kid I look at friends who have who got pregnant first try and healthy baby, easy delivery, blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't, nothing's an easy delivery, but you know what I mean. And I see them really struggle, like really struggle with what parenting serves you once this kid is here. And the fact that Zach and I had been through so much emotional turmoil and physical and all the things, I think now it just makes us better parents and better partners. I really think, you know, we look at each other and we're like, we really wanted this. We've really fucking wanted this.

This is not a teen pregnancy that you're making the best of it. And like, you know, you can have regrets or whatever. It's like, this is what we both wanted. We're living the dream that we wanted and it wasn't easy. It wasn't pretty. But like what dream is. And so we have a very realistic approach of like what it is to have a family and be parents. And I think a lot of that is because of what we experience together.

Yeah. And it sounds like you said, you know, once you decided on surrogacy that he was able to communicate to you, grieving the loss of like being able to, you know, touch your belly or feel the baby move. And that's really big, I think, that he was able to say that to you because that's hard because that's saying something that might bring up something in you. So it shows right there, I think, even from the beginning, you know, him going golfing, you know, through that. Yeah, where he's able to really communicate. So I hear the growth in your story, which is really nice. Thank you. And I think like, when you were telling that story, what resonated with me is also you

were saying with the second miscarriage that like a big part of it, I think that kind of gets overlooked or gets overshadowed. Like you said, obviously, like there's like the loss of the baby. But then there's the feeling, which almost can feel like more daunting or more upsetting for, I mean, and you said it did. And for me, I've had that too where you're kind of like. like I'm back at square one. I have nothing to show for all of this like trauma that I've been through.

And like I have no idea if it's if I'm ever going to be out of hell. If it's just like and now I'm back at the beginning. So it's not even like all this like these seven weeks that you were like stressing out and like anxious and really sad. You're like at least there's you know you're buying you're like getting somewhere and then a feeling of oh my God I have to start all over again. I think is something that people don't really talk about, but does feel like really like a pretty significant part of like what's really upsetting is like I'm back to square one. Yeah. It really is such a.

I was surprised at that feeling that I had. Like I was like, wait, I, what, maybe I'm sad about this news, but the overriding emotion right now is like I have to start over. It's really. And you know, I have to say like a lot of us here as women like postpartum depression, postpartum depression. Like that's really, I'm glad there's so much. awareness there and that women are really getting assistance with it and we're doing so,

so well with, like, destigmatizing it. But I didn't even know with that second pregnancy that it was possible to hit a depressive state while pregnant. Like, I didn't even know that was a thing. I'd never heard of it. So I was like, okay, well, I'm so totally fucked up. Like, there's something wrong with me. This is like when I'm supposed to be so happy and so, you know, optimistic or whatever. I mean, barfing everywhere I can handle that. Like, it was, but the. emotional part of it and like the darkness of it was so shocking and that was something that I was like shouting from the rooftops once I got past that and and you know I got medicated like that's the other part about it my psychiatrist was like these things exist for this reason you know there's there

and right now especially like I'm I won't get political but like there's there's like an attack on these types of drugs that help women during pregnancy and I can't feel more passionately about it, that like there was no world that I could have considered continuing this pregnancy had it allowed me to without being medicated. Like there just wasn't. And whatever I was going through, and I think that that was the other part of it with my psychiatrist, she's like, you know, what you're feeling, this like darkness, this depression, this whatever, like that is affecting the baby.

That is, you know, you're not making this like wonderful and not that we need to have guilt associated with like how we're feeling and all that that can be dangerous. But still, she was like, you don't need to be a hero. Like you being happy and content and like not scared and not sad and all these things is the best thing you can do for your entire family. And so I just feel really, really passionately that like that's clearly I really love all of the advances in medicine. The test, the pills, the thing, the that. Like I love assistance. And I'm a pretty tough person. I'm pretty resilient, but I also spent too many years not asking for help. And once I did, I was like, what have you been waiting for? Like, there is no metal at all at the end of this that

you suffered. Like, there really isn't. Yeah. Yeah, I love that message to, like, get all the help. This is kind of an intimate question. I don't know if you're open to answering it. But during that time, when you were like, I'm pregnant, I'm supposed to be happy, but I'm not. Are you willing to share kind of what some of the content was of the thoughts at that moment because I think it might just help normalize because you had already been through so much. Was it tied into that or was it more general? You know, I think it was both. I think that, you know, my psychiatrist told me that once you've been in had a depressive state or an episode, you know, pre-pregnancy, that it is very common once you're pregnant to dip back in or hit that again.

Like it's something, I don't know if it's like the grooves have been made and, you know, it's like that the stage has been set so it's much easier to slip into it. And in my 20s, I had dealt with, you know, someone very close to me passing away. It was my boyfriend that I lived with for a year and a half and it was very sudden. And I, up until that, I was like a very charmed life. It was very like, everything worked out. I, you know, except for the like, you know, blip in my. day I made my Broadway debut or got my Broadway job.

Like it was like, that was the hardest thing I had been through. And then that happened in my 20s. And I definitely think that I, from that point on, was susceptible to depression. And I think that it wasn't like I was pregnant thinking about my late boyfriend. It was not that at all. It's just that like my brain remembered the feeling of being like, I don't care if I wake up. I don't care about anything. I would be fine if I, if, if I never woke up, I'd be fine if I got hit by this car.

I think it would be easier. I, I, these sounds like flippant statements, but that is really kind of the inner, the, the narrative. It was really just the, and I struggle with depression, you know, not pregnant still. I'm, I'm medicated. Like it's, and I go in and out. I go in and out of needing the assistance and I'm, you know, very closely monitored by my doctor. But it's, it's a reality that, that, that. I live with and I'm no longer going to like suffer through it anymore. And I think that that was a very,

I was very scared during pregnancy and depression. I was really, really scared that I would never snap out of it, that the pregnancy would continue. And I would be a mother and I would still not be able to find an ounce of joy, an ounce of purpose. I just, whatever that is, I just lost the kind of, I just lost whatever joy was there at all. That's so scary. I think, even that. narrative of like, oh, you're depressed. It's not good for the baby. And then now so now you're depressed and you're worrying about the baby and what kind of mother am I going to be? I think a lot of people have that too. So I'm glad you're talking about it. And like you said, you know, there's no prize for suffering. Right. And I remember speaking to a psychiatrist about this too, who basically

was like in the studies that they've done about like antidepressants or anti-anxiety medication in pregnancy, like the outcomes of those children and they've studied them and, you know, but there's more and more studies coming out. Like those children bear like much better than children whose mothers are severely anxious and severely depressed. Like if you're looking at like the long term studies of like those outcomes. So I think there's like a there's a huge destigmatization of that even coming, coming through like every day getting a little better, which is great.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean our government's trying to take it away. Well, besides the government. No, but I think it's funny because I think men, are like immediately, I think you're talking about like the way that men come at these things. And I think men are a lot of men when they're thinking about their wives being on these medications, they're very much like, oh, you should be like purely on absolutely nothing. And like don't do

do anything at all because like you don't know whatever. But like I think it's probably a lot of the men in government. But when you actually look at like the data, like it's okay. Yeah. That was comforting for me to hear as well. My psychiatrist shared that with me. and it did. Because you know, you just like, I mean, from the moment you get pregnant, like you just do, you do worry a lot about the baby. And sometimes you forget about yourself in the whole, like, you know, journey of what's the best for the baby?

What's the thing that I can be doing best for the baby? And the food and the this and the whatever. And I'm like, well, it's like the oxygen mask first thing. You know, babies are resilient. They are, for the most part, beautifully. resilient and women are not always, like not always. And I think that that's like so important to have compassion for yourself. And it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you a selfish person. It's just anybody who says that they, I don't know, I think, I think women silently suffer a lot.

To close out the episode, let's take a moment to recharge with a segment sponsored by first response. Every moment of the fertility journey is different for everyone and we all handle waiting for that positive test in our own way. No matter what you're struggling with on your journey to conceive, our friends at first response want to help you find some positive in the negative, whatever that looks like for you. Well, thank you so much for sharing this story. Is there anything like just having gone through this that you feel like really, you know, really helped you or kept you positive or kind of got you through to the other side, like in one piece. Besides, obviously, like medication seems like very helpful. But anything else that just helped your mindset or like that you kind of held

on to throughout this to that like might inspire a listener to get into? Yeah, I think I was just looking for the good news. You know, I think just in my community and luckily with the lady gang podcast, like we have this whole community of women who really open up to each other and are vulnerable and share their fertility journeys on our Facebook group. And I remember just going and there's like a trying to conceive subgroup and I'm pregnant group and all the things. And I know sometimes those things can be dangerous, like if you're in the throes of it. But there were times where I had friends of friends or in the Facebook group. It's like my friend has been through seven egg retrievals and you know, never had a regular embryo. And she just had, you know, she just had her healthy baby.

Not the miracles because it's, it doesn't take a miracle, but just the good stories. And even with my friends now that have since me going through my whole thing, you know, I just make myself really available to those people to be like, look at me. Like you saw me for five years. I thought it would never happen. You just have to find those people that you look at and you're like, okay, it did happen. It happened. And now this, and now my friend's bitching about her kid waking her up in the middle of the night. Like how quickly we forget. Yeah. So, you know, and that's the whole thing. And I also think something that's important to, with surrogacy, to call out, when I was deciding whether or not to go in that direction, I said to my friend who's an OBGYN, I said, I just want somebody to tell me you absolutely can't carry a baby. Like there's no shot in hell.

Nothing is going to work. Nothing. And he looked at me and he said, that doesn't happen. Like that just very, unless you did not have a uterus. Right. there are so few examples. He's like, I have patients who I've looked at and been like, if I were you, if I were your husband, like all, everything is stacked against you.

But sure, if you want to risk X, Y, and Z, it is your body, it's your choice. He's like, those are the people, you know, and it's up to you. He's like, you could continue down this road. You could go and go and go and go, but you're not getting younger. Your eggs are not getting younger. Your embryos are limited. like so I wanted I wanted to be told I absolutely couldn't because that would have been more helpful. It would have made me feel less guilt. It would have made me feel less shame. And it's just the reality is

is that nobody's most people are not going to be told that. And so you have to just step into your decision and feel like, okay, me myself and where I stand and what I've been through, I actually cannot. I've decided that I cannot. So this is me waving the white flag and saying that's the end of this road, not that we can't go back to it, but we're moving forward and this is what it looks like. That's such an amazing point. I think a lot of this just feels so like, like, I don't know if Ambiguity, Naomi, you would know more of like ambiguous loss pertains to this, but it does feel like you're kind of like, it's hard to commit to like a road in these kinds of journeys because you're like, I have no clear answer and I have no way of knowing like if it will,

I could keep trying forever and like maybe it would work. There's not no one saying you have no shot. but like only you can know when you've had enough. Emotionally, like emotionally, when have you tapped out? You know, like that's important too to be like, where's your kind of your stopping point? And it doesn't have to be physical. Yeah. And for you though, even, and I, you probably don't want to hear us from me because you're the one that went through it.

But the idea that you had what sounds like such an incredibly uncomfortable reaction and like that moment, fever is in chills and shaking where it's almost like a. blessing and disguise that that was that was the universe telling you like nope like you're not you're not going to go through the ringer on this like this is too much your body telling you this is too much that was kind you know I know you want someone else to kind of there's so many decisions involved in this like so many along the way of that you know that I could see wanting someone to just take that decision and tell you what to do it's really so true I think that that experience came at the tail end of the,

or it was after the, you know, depressive second pregnancy and the miscarriage and then my body doing that, it actually felt like when I talked to my doctor and he's like, well, we can't continue with the transfer because you can't, your body's going to reject whatever we put in there with it being like this. That was the closest thing I got to like a hard stop

and I took it. And I was like, fuck yeah. But you know what? It's like in hindsight, I didn't need it. It felt weirdly good and, you know, like freeing to hear that as frustrating as, it was. So yeah, it's, and I think, I don't know, I'm a little bit woo-woo. I think that this was,

I look at my son and I'm like, thank God I didn't try to put you in my body. Thank God, this little embryo didn't go in my body doing an unmedicated cycle where the chances are like, you know, not great or whatever the thing is. I'm like, the thought of him, this embryo having not been the one to have the most successful path forward, like that alone is like, fuck yeah. Like that was The best choice I've ever made. Yeah. Yeah. And then so, I mean, like, it's when you finally, like, meet your son, the exorget gave

his birth, is there any, like, lingering? Is there any feeling of, like, a strangeness? Just not, like, or did all, did not, none of that really matter, like, because he's yours. And, like, or was there any kind of hormonal thing that you kind of feel like you missed out on there? You know, I, I'm so lucky. My older sister had two children at this point.

And when I was going down this route, I was like, am I going to. bond like am I going to you know a lot of the bonding happens when the baby's inside of you she goes i don't know how other women are she's like but when i tell you i felt no connection to my baby other than being a pain in my ass inconvenience making me miserable for nine plus months right the fact that i did not feel anything until that baby was placed on my chest she said i'm she's like i swear to you i felt nothing until the moment that baby was on my chest that was my baby that was my moment. It was not when she or he was inside of me. And I watched both of her pregnancies and she was not the woman that was like, feel the baby, blah, blah, blah. Like she was miserable. And, you know,

people that do have that experience, like, God bless them. I'm so grateful. And I know people do bond while pregnant. Some women feel it the moment that they have a positive pregnancy test. And I am not gaslighting them. I think that that is true for them. But because I had my sister who's a wonderful mother who could not be more obsessed with her kids and bonded, like, knowing that that was an option for me. And that's really like how I felt. I mean, it's, it's also, let's be honest, like even women who carry this little being comes out into the world and is on your chest. And it's like, whoa, I don't know you. Like, this is crazy. You're suddenly my responsibility for the next 18 plus years. Like, it's a surreal experience. And breastfeeding was something that I had to sort of like,

not mourn or grieve, but I had to just be, you know, I'm not going to lie, I'm still super triggered by seeing people posting breastfeeding pictures and videos on Instagram. Who's posting breastfeeding pictures? A lot of people. You know what? I love you. I really feel like you are just saying all the things that everyone needs to hear about this whole experience that a lot of people don't say. Yeah, I really appreciate it from like all these little moments of like what felt like could be a tight, shameful thing that you hold in. Even that right there.

Like I don't want to see it. I'm like grieving the loss of that. Like I really admire you. I admire how open you are about not just, it's one thing and it's hard thing to be open about the process. Like that is hard. But you tell your story in a way that feels like just shedding the shame for yourself and all the other women that I'm sure that even that little bit there at the end that

just threw in as an extra, there's like thousands of women that feel that way, probably. And I'm sure I'm going to get nasty messages, but you know what? I stand in my truth. I think it's smug. I'm just kidding. I love it. I love that you come out at it with humor. I think even like on the, when we're on the Lady Gang podcast, and you said something about your son and I said something, I think assuming that you gave birth to him and you were like, and I remember this because I thought it was so funny, you were like, you think I gave birth to my son like an animal? Like one of those You were like that's barbaric

Like of course I didn't give birth to my son It was like so funny And I just think that like you know what I mean It like deflates the whole room And you just have an amazing way of talking about it And being so open And bringing a lightness to something that's really heavy Which is what we really like to do

So thank you again to first response The Pregnancy Test brand that is there for you No matter where you are on your journey When it comes to pregnancy and planning, first response supports and empowers women along their journeys because every test is more than just a result. Thank you so much for coming on. This was really amazing. Thank you guys. I'm happy you're doing this. Thanks. Yeah, great to meet you. Thanks for doing this. All right. Have a good one. Bye. Bye. Bye. Beches.