Oversharing - Baby Steps: The Ins and Outs of Surrogacy Straight From a Mom and Her Gestational Carrier Ft. Amber Nipper and Jessie Jaskulsky

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

In this fourth episode of Baby Steps Season 2, presented by First Response, Jordana speaks with Jessie Jaskulsky and Amber Nipper as they open up about their shared, heartfelt journey through surrogacy. Jessie recounts her challenging fertility path, while Amber shares her profound decision to become a surrogate. Together, they explore the highs, lows, and unexpected bonds formed during the surrogacy process. From initial connections on social media to the emotional delivery of Jessie's daughter, their story reflects resilience, friendship, and the power of support. Tune in for an inspiring tale of surrogacy and friendship. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by First Response. First Response recognizes that not all pregnancies are the same, and neither is the road to get there. The First Response brand is fervently committed to supporting, sharing, and empowering all pregnancy journeys and providing accurate information, especially to those struggling with infertility, loss of a baby, and maternal health inequities. With a variety of tests that detect pregnancy hormones early and often, first response is there for you every step of the way. All First Response pregnancy test products are available for purchase at all major retailers in store and online. Be sure to pick one up today. Hello and welcome back to Baby Steps. I'm Jordana Abraham and as always I'm here with my big sister, Dr. Naomi Bernstein, to introduce you to this episode of Baby Steps.

So happy to be here. So who do we have this week? This week was such a cool episode because I got to speak to Jesse and Amber. So Jesse has two kids be a surrogate and she started basically like kind of like a consulting firm to help. people who want to get surrogates sort of simplify the process. It's called surrogacy simplified and helps people like understand all the different layers and parts that go with finding a surrogate. But we also were joined by her surrogate, Amber, which was so cool to be able to get the firsthand experience of someone who had been a surrogate and to get that experience firsthand because I've never met anyone who's done that before. Oh my gosh. That is amazing. I'm really excited to hear this interview. It's even before you said anything, my first thought was like,

what is the relationship between the mom and the surrogate? And like how do they navigate that? Do they stay close? Like how does the surrogate feel through the whole process? Yeah, we get all of that information. It's so cool. And just to find out like on the other end of it, like what motivates someone to become a surrogate, what that experience is like to,

to carry someone else's child to give someone this gift of having it like all the misconceptions that she originally had about surrogacy and how they changed, you know, getting her husband on board, having her own kids before and after this. I had so many questions and they answered them all like beautifully and just like the relationship with each other. It was, it's such a, such a cool episode. I can't wait for you guys to hear it. Oh my God. I have so many questions and I'm sure that you probably answered them all, and I cannot wait to listen to this. This is really cool. Great idea. Thank you. So I'm just really fascinated to hear the experience. Did they touch on, like, I guess it's really deep. Is there like, were there any points where there were like

jealousy or hard feelings or like tension between the two of them around, you know, one's the mother and one's the surrogate and how they enter it? Like, were there? are tense moments throughout it for the two of them? Yeah, I asked that question, which is interesting because, you know, they walk me through like all the legal stuff that you need to do. And a lot of the contract that you drop sort of does preemptively cover a lot of these things. Amber talked about how she had, she had been a surrogate before she worked with Jessie and they had some back and forth about like her wanting to dye her hair or eating certain foods. And so going into it with Jesse, They sort of already had all those conversations and really laid it all out before they began working together.

Wow. And this service sounds amazing and very needed to kind of, you know, help walk you through the process of surrogacy, finding someone and navigating these issues, which you wouldn't even think about beforehand. Totally. You'll hear their story. They met in such a sort of like fate driven way. It feels like they met in like a Facebook group. and Amber was just like really taken with how Jesse answered like was commenting on someone else's post. So just the way that that these things seem to be brought together by fate, how it works out, the perspective of each side. It was such a fascinating episode for me to record. So let's just get right into it. You'll get to hear both of their takes. I interview Jesse first and then I interview Amber and then I interview them together. And we really like got into the whole process. It's so cool. Let me know if you guys have any thoughts on the episode. And let's jump right in. And we are joined today by two very special guests. Please welcome Jesse Jaskulski and Amber Nipper. Welcome to the show.

Hi there. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks. And this is such an amazing, unique experience for me because I'm very excited because Jesse Amber was actually your surrogate. So I'm excited to get both your experience of having used a surrogate and Amber's experience of being a surrogate.

I've really wanted to speak to a surrogate or a gestational carrier. I know people have different preferences for the name. But most of the time, it's a little bit more like secretive or private, or I assume there's rules around why it's not so open. But it's hard to find someone and then also hard to find someone who's willing to come on and talk about it. So thank you both for coming on. I'm so excited to speak to you today. Absolutely. So let's start. Jesse, could you just kind of take me through whole fertility journey? Obviously, it's probably could be like, a 10-hour podcast to take me through everything. But the high level, but also from the beginning of like when you, you know, when you wanted kids, just the whole fertility process from beginning

to end possible. Yes, absolutely. And since it is such a long journey, just stopped me if you want me to elaborate more on something that I didn't. But I actually became pregnant myself. I was totally a spring chicken. As soon as we tried conceiving, this was 2016. and had a really great pregnancy so great that my husband and I decided to go on a baby moon around 20 weeks after the anatomy scan. And we live in Maryland. We went over to Scottsdale, Arizona. We were trying different cuisines.

I thought I was starting to get some stomach pain perhaps from going to all of these different restaurants. Long story short, I began bleeding soon after that. And we rushed to the hospital out in Arizona. And once we got the triage, we could just really tell by the looks on the nurse's faces that something was just really, really wrong. And I was basically beginning labor. And they were trying to stop my labor. They were trying to do an amniocentesis to figure out what was going on. But unfortunately, they weren't able to stop the labor from progressing. And I delivered my son Luke at a couple days short of 22 weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you had gotten pregnant on your basically on your, your first try. Yes. Okay. And everything was going fine up until then. Absolutely. I was exercising. I felt great. I didn't even experience nausea. Just had a really, really smooth pregnancy up until that point. So it was a total shock. Wow. Yeah. Once we got home, about a month later, I was sitting on the couch with my parents that

were visiting and it quite literally, and this is TMI, felt like I was peeing myself. And I go to the bathroom and I was hemorrhaging. And I ended up having retained placenta. And it caused me to have an emergency DNC. And what I didn't realize at the time was that this was the catalyst for all of my secondary infertility to follow. You went to the hospital when you were on your baby moon and you delivered? I delivered. And I had a little tiny bit of placenta that did not come out with the delivery. And was he okay? No. He, he, yeah, he delivered. He was born at 20. 22 weeks and he was born stillbirth. Okay.

I apologize. I didn't know like what the earliest that you could possibly be okay for delivery is. I know it varies, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. And some, it depends on the state. Universally, it can be around 24 weeks, but I actually have a client right now that was able to help a 22 week or may survive, which is pretty unbelievable.

Wow. I'm so sorry. That must have been like completely devastating, especially. of nowhere with absolutely no signs. Yeah, totally shocking. And then, you know, I got home and I began to see a grief counselor and thought I would get pregnant again. And then once I started hemorrhaging and found out I had this retained placenta that I needed

to get a DNC to remove, that long story short, completely scarred my uterus and left me with what's called Asherman syndrome, which is pretty rare, although I'm finding more and more women then have it and it left my uterine lining really thin. So now I had these two sort of hurdles getting pregnant and staying pregnant. And I'm condensing like years of treatments and surgeries, you know, just for the sake of time. But at that point, my husband and I, we didn't feel like we were given really clear guidance from the fertility doctors, which was frustrating. I was sort of in this gray area of whether I should keep trying on myself or move forward with surrogacy. And we just really felt that it was time to remove the pressure off of my body and give our embryo truly the safest route to succeed and have a healthy pregnancy and a better outcome.

Did you do an embryo retrieval? At what point did you do that in this whole journey? We did a couple rounds of IUIs that had failed. And as we were gearing up for our first egg retrieval, we made the decision to create the embryos with the intention of using them for surrogacy. So you got diagnosed with Asherman syndrome. How long after you had had your son did that happen? I would say about a year. Okay.

And then we turned to surrogacy at the end of 2018. Okay. And we met Amber in March of 2019. So the issue seemed to be that your uterus, the lining was too thin and there was like scar tissue from the procedure that you had from the placental issue. Correct. And then from my loss, it was either preterm labor or incompetent cervix. And they sort of don't know which one it is or if it's a combination of both. So I had all of these issues to take into account and then decide, okay, surrogacy is probably the safest route for me to have a child.

Got it. Because was it at the risk of having it yourself, even if you could get pregnant, would just be like very great to you and the baby? Exactly. And I was just nervous of a potential for a hospital bedrock. rest. They talked about giving me a surclage, which is a stitch to keep your uterus tight instead of opening. And it just felt like it was going to be such a complicated pregnancy, even if it were to work. And then I didn't know how early my child would end up coming. Right. Yeah. No, that seems like a lot of pressure. And then so talk to me about this moment where you decided you were going to go with the

surrogate. Was that like a very difficult choice, but is it the obvious choice? Like how did it feel, if you don't mind me asking, like just emotionally to accept that you weren't going to carry your next child. Yeah. For me, I had this moment of relief where I felt like I was taking the pressure off of myself. And I know that for many women, it's this feeling of grief of not carrying. But I felt lucky that I did experience some of what being pregnant felt like I experienced kicks and, you know, how I am seeing my belly grow. But I truly didn't feel comfortable in myself and being able to carry a child to term that I felt really, really relieved that there was this option for me to still have a child biologically connected to me and just giving them a way better uterus that can hopefully bring

closer to term. Right. And how is the process of getting embryos? Was that relatively straightforward for you? I know some people have issues. Some people it's easier for it seems like that's not that wasn't necessarily your issue. Yes. I was fortunate and that part of the process was not hard, difficult for me. Okay. So you did one retrieval? I did one retrieval prior to meeting Amber. And then when I did two surrogacy journeys, I had two daughters. And for the second one, I created more embryos. Got it. So I know we're going to get into this when we talk about your agency and everything you're doing, but talk to me at the process of, okay, we decided, or the doctor probably recommends that you get a surrogate or you decide that you're going to get a surrogate. Like, what are the next steps? Because I think

people who are going through infertility kind of like you hear you know there's option of adoption or there's option of surrogacy but it seems like there's just like years of like work and paperwork and like understanding everything and like it's not like you decide it in the next day you have a surrogate so can you talk to me about the process of like once you've accepted that this is the route you're going to go on like what was the next step yeah so once we decided we started going through the motions of IVF and we were also looking into surrogate agencies. And we really wanted to use an agency to help us match with somebody. And we happened to know a lot of guys that use the particular agency and there was the safety in numbers. And we contacted that agency and they were really

kind and we felt really comfortable with them. And from there, we signed on with them. How long did they tell you the process was going to take from, okay, we're going to get a surrogate to like when your baby will be in your hands. It all goes well. They said anywhere from a year and a half to two years. From when you decide you're going to use a surrogate? Correct. Okay.

And then what were like, what was the prep that you had to do besides obviously choosing and finding a surrogate? I would say a lot of research just to truly understand the process and everything that goes on in it, which was definitely very overwhelming. And then, you know, figuring out ways to afford surrogacy because the cost is just so insanely high. And just, you know, thinking about surrogacy in general and the type of relationship I wanted to have with the surrogate, what I wanted the next year and a half to look like. I would say those are the main things that I was focusing on at that time. Got it. Do you mind me

asking what the cost wound up being? So for my journey with Amber, prior to meeting Amber, I was matched with a different surrogate. And she ended up missing. carrying. She had an undiagnosed issue that the IVF medication actually brought out, and she developed pancreatitis. And as a result, we had to break the match with her. And so we had lost money on attorneys, on her, an embryo transfer on a medical evaluation, psychological bills. So we had probably lost maybe close to $20,000. Oh, wow. And insurance doesn't pay for any of that, I assume. No. Okay. All out of pocket. So I, so my first journey was a little, you know, more costly because of all of these things that had sort of gone

wrong for me prior to meeting Amber, I would say comfortably we were probably at around 150,000. Okay. And then what kind of like testing does the surrogate generally have to do? Like how does it work? They kind of present you with a bunch of people and you pick or is it based on your medical history? And what's the process like for choosing a surrogate? It's different at every agency. some agencies, the parents will review surrogate profiles and see which ones they feel connected with. The agency that I went with, she read our profile and selected us. But I had actually met Amber on Facebook and had her apply to my agency. So my first surrogate, I met through the traditional agency where she picked my profile.

And then after my surrogate miscarried, I went on to Facebook and within some surrogate private Facebook groups. I connected with Amber on there, I felt nervous because it was Facebook. And she applied to my agency. So you met her on Facebook and then she applied specifically for you to the agency. Exactly. Is it the kind of thing and forgive me if this is like totally ignorant? Is it the kind of thing where like you could have maybe saved money if she just like went, you know, you didn't involve the agency and she just like went directly with you? I don't know how. Yeah. Oh, totally because you pay the agency to help with the matching process. although being a newbie at this time and coming from this, you know, like mental state of like grief

and heartache after losing my son, I, it would have been a lot to manage everything on my own, I think. Right. It sounds like you, like not using like a realtor to sell your your house or something. Like there's just a lot more probably like that you have to manage yourself, which seems overwhelming. Right. Right. Okay. So Amber, I would love to hear your take or just like your story, how you got into doing this like I know you have children of your own like what drove you to do this just if you could give me your your story I would love to hear and I'm sure the listeners would love to hear it absolutely so I'm a mom to six now and the reason I mentioned that is because when I but was a surrogate the first time we had two children one boy one girl and at the time we had the time we had the

we thought we were complete. Our family was complete. We were done having children. So I feel like as a mom, you kind of go through a period when you think you're done having children of being sad that maybe you won't carry another baby and just kind of grieving that stage of your life. And I think that's kind of where I was at that time. For your previous pregnancies, have you like, did you really enjoy being pregnant? Was it like a positive experience for you? I know many women a very mixed. At that time, yes. My first two pregnancies were very uneventful, very simple, very enjoyable. And also at that time, I had never, I didn't know surrogate, being a surrogate was a real thing.

This was 2013, probably a lot less common than now, I would think, at least in my part of the nation. So I had a friend on Facebook who was a surrogate and she posted her story on Facebook and I followed along with her. And that's kind of where the spark started with me. I was really intrigued by her journey. I followed along with her. So, and then that spark kind of grew over time. You know, the more I did some research, I spoke with. Her name was Misty.

I spoke with Misty over several months and just gathered some information and her experience. And I was just really intrigued by that. So I took a long time to do some diving into the research stage of being a surrogate, what that looked like. And I ended up contacting an agency in Chicago. And we did a very thorough interview where they laid everything out for me, you know, this is, this is all of the steps that you would take, all of the medication, you know, this is what your obligation would be as far as time and everything else. So I think going into it, when you have only carried your own babies, you're like, okay, you know,

it's just, it's going to be really straightforward, get pregnant, carry a baby, make a mom and dad happy end of story. And I was really, you know, it's just, it's going to be really straightforward, get pregnant, get pregnant, end of story. And I was really shocked to know that that is not, that wasn't actually what the experience would be. There's a lot. There's a lot to go into it. So you learned that in the interview they kind of told you that that wasn't, it wasn't going to be the situation. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So you probably thought, you know, much like probably most like you have the baby, you give her the baby and you know, that's it. And it's a nice thing and it's over. Yeah, happily ever after. So what surprised you the most about?

like what they told you this was going to entail? I think the biggest surprise for me was the timing. They weren't able to give me like, you know, this is how long it will take for your journey. Right. But they did prepare me. You know, you could be in contract with your intended parent for two to three years before being pregnant or delivering a baby. it could be a very lengthy journey because there was just so much that can possibly go into the journey

with the surrogate and with the IPs, you know, the retrieval, the everything that goes into both sides of the situation. So I was in research phase for a very long time before I ever even mentioned it to my husband. I wanted to sit on that and be sure that this is something I wanted to pursue before I brought that into conversation. So it was it was kind of a long process for me as far as the research stage goes. But that spark just kept growing and growing. And I don't know how else to say it other than I just felt called. I felt like this was just a calling that I couldn't ignore.

And it grew to a point to where, okay, I have to do it. So long story short, the beginning of this process for me was a selfish reason as far as, oh, I'd love to be pregnant again, experience everything one more time as far as pregnancy and delivery goes. And that really grew into something so much more than that. So anyway, I matched with my first couple via an agency in 2013. and we delivered, I delivered a little girl for them in August of 2014. And it was life-changing to say the least in so many ways. So many ways that you, that are unexpected, I think. What kind of ways were unexpected for you?

Like what surprised you about that? I don't know. It just changed me as a person. And it's so hard to articulate why. You know, I had never experienced anything on the side of infertility. I was very fortunate and was able to get pregnant easily and carried a term and have uneventful labors at that point. And walking that path with a couple who had been, I think that it took them. I'm maybe, this has been 11 years, so I'm a little lost on the details.

It was seven or nine years for them to be able to have that child. So walking with them on that journey just was a whole new experience for me. It opened my eyes. It made me more sympathetic, empathetic understanding and caring to that, you know, to the, to the population that has to endure that. Right. And I mean, you're giving, I guess it's like the ultimate real gift to be able to give someone a child that they really can't do without you.

Pretty incredible. So what made you like a good candidate did they say like for surrogacy? Because I'm sure not everyone is. Yeah. Actually, it's a lot more difficult than maybe you would think to be cleared to be a gestational carrier. At the time, I had had two pregnancies and deliveries, both without any health issues or complications. So ultimately what made me a good candidate at the time was that my pregnancies were both full term. There were no health issues. My labor was both deliveries were vaginal and uncomplicated. They do dive deeper into your health history than just that.

But in the beginning, that's what they're looking for, a healthy woman who has carried her own children without complications. Right. And what was your, if you don't mind me asking, what was your, husband's reaction when you said this is something I want to do. I'm sure that must have been an interesting conversation. He absolutely thought I was crazy. So like I said, back in 2013, this was not a super common thing, at least in Kentucky. You know, you didn't really hear of people in this part of the nation, at least being a gestational carrier. So this was a whole new world for him. and his initial reaction was probably very similar to other people who are unfamiliar with this process.

You know, you're not going to X, Y, Z. You know, people have a lot of misconceptions. You know, how does this happen? We can't have a baby, have our own baby, and then give it away. You know, so many things. So I had to really, my research stage really paid off because I was really able to sit down. with him and be like, okay, let's have an educated conversation and let me explain everything that happens. And we did. And we talked about it for several weeks. And he was really hesitant. I will say he was

very hesitant. He gave me a shaky yes. You know, like basically, if this is on your heart and this is something that you feel called and led to do, then I'll support you. But I still am really hesitant. So we were with a wonderful agency at that time, and we did a FaceTime meeting with the support staff there as a couple, and they were able to kind of answer the questions that I wasn't able to answer to give him the reassurance that he needed. But then when he met the couple that we were matched with, and we had that initial match meeting, and he got to. to hear their story, that was it for him. Like he, he was 100% in it. It's just, I think he was on the same wave that I was in the beginning as far as, you know, you don't really understand what people endure until, until you hear, you know what I'm saying, until you hear other people's stories and, or you have a close encounter, a close friendship.

somebody that maybe has walked that path. So once he heard their story and he was all in and it was just a beautiful thing from that point. That's amazing. So then you decide to go through with this. You know, you get pregnant. You have the baby. What is it like being pregnant just in your day to day life with, you know, your family, your friends? Like I'm sure you get a lot of questions a lot or people, you know, where's the baby that you were just pregnant with? Yeah. How did you like present it to just the people in your life? So I live in a really small area. And I gave that a lot of thought beforehand. Like how do I want to do this? Do I want to just be pregnant and keep the journey private and personal? Do I want to put something out there and let people marinate on it?

ultimately what I did is I made a Facebook post before I really got started and I let people know this is, you know, this is the path that Dalton and I are about to walk down. And I think I started a little blog at that point. Yeah, I started a little blog beforehand with just some basic information, some educational information so that people understood what we were about to do. So to try to head off the misconceptions that a lot of people have, I just went ahead and made a post and answered a lot of those questions up front. That actually made it a lot easier for me. So a lot of, you know, social media followers and friends at that time, you know, knew what we were about to do. They read the post. They understood. And I feel like I didn't get a lot of the, for lack of better words, kind of.

kind of rude questions and assumptions that that you can get along the way. You got ahead of it. Yeah, for the most part. I will say I did still have some people that had some drawback and had that were upset for one way or the other. I think it's maybe just lack of understanding or education. But it didn't, it wasn't, it wasn't all sunshine and roses. That's for sure. Was there anyone in your community that had been going through infertility that maybe you found out about through?

through talking about this or that you haven't really heard much about that. Yeah, actually I had quite a few people reach out to me and either just say some really kind and positive words to, you know, let me know, hey, this is what we're going through. I think what you're doing is wonderful. Some people reached out and said, hey, this is what we're going through. And I would love to get some information about what you're doing. So I do feel like, you know, I was kind of at, my husband and I are very different people. as far as being public with our lives.

And I tend to be an overshare, and my husband tends to be the opposite of that. And he was very hesitant about sharing our journey publicly. But in the long run, I feel like it was a positive thing, and it helped a lot of people understand and get some resources that maybe they wouldn't have had otherwise. Yeah, that's amazing. I feel like there's so many of these sort of like,

extra hidden benefits and costs like you're saying like not it wasn't all sunshine and roses but also just like you know letting talking about a subject that most people don't talk about and feeling like there's an outlet for some you know to ask a question or to hear someone else going through something when it's definitely much more hidden in society than you know maybe is ideal for people going through it okay so you have this successful experience with this first family and then take me to you know, what brought you to Jessie from your point of view? So the first, the first journey was mostly an uncomplicated pregnancy. I had some high blood pressure at the very end, at delivery, actually.

So after that one, I wasn't for sure that I would be a surrogate again. You know, we had this wonderful experience. It was very positive. I walked away, like I said, really feeling like a change. human for the better. And I felt like that was probably going to be the end of that part of my life. Fast forward, maybe two years we had another son of our own. That would be our third. And another easy, easy pregnancy, easy delivery. How old was Cohen when you met him, Jesse? Maybe two. Three. Was he three? Yeah, like two or three. Okay. Yeah. All right. So he was at all the appointments

with that. Yeah. A couple years later, I guess, I really don't know. I don't know what brought it up to me again. I think I was in some Facebook groups, some surrogate intended parent Facebook groups. And I just started visiting them randomly reading some stories of intended parents looking for surrogates. And Jesse didn't even make a post. We really connected so randomly. Like, I know the stars aligned, and I know that we were supposed to cross paths. But anyway, somebody else had made a post. Maybe asking a question. I think they were asking a question. And Jesse was in the comments. And she gave such a kind response.

I remember her response was so kind and so thoughtful. And I don't exactly remember what she said that made me want to reach out to her. Maybe that, do you remember Jesse what that comment said? I don't remember either what I was commenting on, but I remember you messaging me being like, you are so kind to all of the other women in this group because I, Jordana, I was like, I wasn't directly facilitating like, I'm looking for a surrogate, but I was like praying for a lot of women and like sending them goodbye. And I think Amber was seeing me kind of lifting other women up.

And you, so you messaged me like on a DM and said, you seem really nice. Are you looking for a surrogate? Yeah, so I just on a woman, messaged her and asked her where they were in their journey and maybe a little bit of information about what they were going through. And, you know, Jessie told me that they had just ended a relationship with their first surrogate because of the complications and that they were thinking of matching again. So we talked very briefly and I don't know. I hadn't met her yet. Keep that in mind. And I just felt this connection with her and we just took it from there.

And honestly, Jesse and I've become such great friends. I don't know. I can't give you a good explanation other than I just really think that we were supposed to cross paths and go down this journey together. So you felt this connection to her where like you kind of felt called again. So what made you decide, you know, it seemed like you were done with being a gestational. carrier at this once you had this connection where you like I could do it again for her or I could do it again in general or like what was your yeah we I had like I said kind of read some some some posts in the group over the last couple weeks prior to that and was giving it some thought

but was really hesitant I wasn't really sure if that's something that I wanted to step into again but then when I connected with Jesse I just I'm like okay yes I think there was a reason that I started, you know, visiting those pages again and we made that connection and there was no question for me at that point. Like I knew I knew that I wanted to to do this with and for Jesse. Okay. So then she refers you to the agency. You guys are a match, I guess. What was the, what was the process of figuring out if this could actually work? It was a little backwards. So normally you go through an agency and you tell them what you're looking for, maybe in your relationship with your intended parents and the intended parents, you know, give some guidelines

on maybe what they're looking for in a surrogate. And the agency typically will facilitate some choices for a lack of better word. They might give you some options like, hey, I think this one might be a good fit. You'll read the bio and decide if you want to proceed from there. So this was a little backwards from that. You know, we had already met. I already knew Jesse's story. We already made that connection. We knew we wanted to work together. So we went to the agency and she asked, let's see, I don't know, it was pretty brief. I think she asked, she collected some medical information just to make sure that there was no reason that we couldn't proceed together. We had a formal FaceTime meeting, I think, together to kind of go more in depth to make sure that we were

aligned in some views on on different things that you might encounter during a surrogate journey. Do those involve like, what if this goes wrong? Will we keep or terminate the pregnancy? That kind of question. Yeah. So a couple of the most important things when you're matching is definitely, termination is definitely, you got to be on the same page with that. I'm sure. Yeah. Because, you know, if you match with intended parents who might want to terminate for Down syndrome or they might want to terminate for other genetic issues or maybe they would want to reduce the multiple pregnancy down to two or one, they would really need to match with a surrogate who was also comfortable with those choices because ultimately it's tough. If you're not aligned in that big issue, it really becomes a really a tough thing to walk through together. So, you know, we talked all of those things out and we were, I think, 100% on the same page as far as all of the major issues that, you know, might come up. And then what happens from there? So from there, I think medical records probably went over to your clinic.

They do a thorough review of my health, my background with all of my pregnancies and deliveries. and then they, you know, let Jesse and Michael know, yeah, we feel like she's a good candidate to move forward with. And then at that point, we did the medical clearance. Was the medical clearance first? Or did we start legal paperwork? We did the medical clearance and the psych sort of hand in hand at the same time. Oh, you need a psychological evaluation. That makes sense.

Yeah. So we all do. Yeah. All of you. Yeah. Everyone gets checked, including like your husbands? Yep. Oh, wow.

Okay. So they're definitely a big part of it. Yeah. Yeah. We each did one like Amber and her husband, me and my husband Michael, and then we do a group one just to make sure like we're all on the same page. And it's like, you know, led by a psychologist who's like trained to go through some of those issues that Amber was describing and make sure everybody's on the same page with everything. Right. Okay.

So at this point, you still have, you haven't met in person, though. You met via FaceTime. We met in person when she flew in for her medical evaluation. Oh, okay. Got it. So everyone's cleared. Everyone passes their psychological evaluation. Can I ask, is there anything in these conversations?

It's just a thought in the back of my mind. Like, are you, Amber, are you asking Jesse, like, are you going to be, like, really annoying about what I'm eating? Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I got to talk about that. Okay. I always wonder that. Like, how, you know what I mean? How are you like? Is she micromanaging the pregnancy? Is that like a concern for you for who you're picking? Like how to say? Yeah, I actually do think that we had that conversation during that meeting because

my first journey was fantastic. The parents were fantastic. But we had a different lifestyle. Me and the intended mother and my first journey kind of had a different lifestyle. So we did sometimes had to have some really difficult conversations as far. as things that maybe I wanted to do while I was pregnant that she maybe didn't want me to do, you know, such as food choices or hair appointments, beauty products and things like that that we hadn't talked about in the beginning. So I do think Jesse and I talked about that kind of briefly, you know, hey, if there's anything that you're not comfortable with, let's get it on the table now so that we can talk it out and make sure that, you know, this is going to work.

That was probably an extra benefit of being the second person that you've done is like you've already done this. You know what you can anticipate what any issues might be. Yeah, it was walking into this journey was very different because, you know, I experienced the first journey. There were a lot of things that maybe I didn't know the first time, some things that maybe I didn't advocate for myself the first time. So I walked into this one a lot more prepared, knowing what kind of situation that I was hopeful for, what kind of relationship that I was hopeful for. And we really never had any issues or disagreements. Yeah, I think for me, my biggest thing was I wanted Amber to not find me annoying if I wanted to talk a lot. I had just, you know, had a stillbirth. So for me, I wanted to

be sure that whoever I matched with would welcome a friendship to hopefully organically develop. It wasn't necessarily me texting her like to micromanage, but just to feel like I had been coming. I came to surrogacy from this place of trauma and like would love to just touch base and hope that a friendship evolves so that we could be in touch and I could kind of and I could feel a part of the pregnancy. Right. No, that makes sense. Okay. So it seems like you guys are all on the same page, all the stars are aligning. I assume you do the transfer and was it just one and it was fine? Or like what was? Yeah, it worked the first time. Okay. And so from there, we just, you know, wrapped up at the fertility clinic. They graduate you at around eight weeks. And then she was seen by

her OB for the rest of the pregnancy. Okay. Great. So it seems like smooth sailing. Yes. on that end. So everything like, and that must have been kind of a major relief after having this really traumatic first pregnancy experience. And probably I would imagine, I'm not going to speak for you, but anticipating the worst or feeling like it's going to, you know, every part of this is going to be really difficult. Absolutely. And I'll let Amber speak to this also. But we, I ended up traveling in for some of the doctor appointments, which was really incredible. And then at around 30 weeks, Amber's blood pressure started to spike. and she was in and out of the hospital.

And at around 32 weeks, they admit her and say she's going to stay there until the baby's born. And at that point, my husband and I fly in and we're basically taking care of Amber and supporting her while she was on hospital bed rest. So her husband could take care of the family. And she delivered our daughter at 33 weeks, which was about seven weeks early. Was she okay? Or how did that turn out? We were really, really lucky. The doctors were able to give her two rounds of steroids, which I think really made a

tremendous impact on my daughter's lungs. And for being born as early as she was, we had a two-week-nicay. So we ended up living in Kentucky for about a month, two weeks taking care of Amber and then two weeks with our daughter while she was in the NICU. That must have really strengthened the friendship, I would imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, being able to really help her. So her husband could focus on the kids. I think, you know, we wanted to do that. And then also, I think it meant so much to their family unit, too, that they had that kind of support. Talk to me about this moment or kind of the experience of having someone else carry your baby. How does how did that feel? How did it feel when she was born? I was really incredible for me. Amber did such an amazing job of including me in the pregnancy. So she would tell me like if she was nauseous or if she had a food aversion or a craving. And so like I really felt. like I was in it with her. And, you know, she would send me little videos and lots of pictures and just really, really was sensitive to me. And, you know, if we were at an appointment and if I was there in person, she would ensure that they were talking to me as a mom, which they don't always do. She just really, really made it such a special relationship. And then when our, when my, when my daughter was born, I was so nervous because it was so early, I didn't know what she was going to look like, what the, you know, how much intervention she was going to need. And I remember I'm

holding Amber's hand. And my husband's right now. to me and our daughter is delivered and she gives like this huge cry and my husband and I just start sobbing. It was just the most like unbelievable moment. We couldn't believe after at this point it had been four years of just heartache that our daughter was finally here. Wow. That's really incredible. So then did Amber also give birth to your second child? No. So since Amber had the high blood pressure and delivered early, it ended up disqualifying Amber for a future surrogate pregnancy. But Amber will tell you she also went on to have more children. So you probably weren't wanting to do it again anyway. Amber, that was your last experience doing this? Yeah, it was. You know, we had Lily

and let's see. Was Lily born in January? Yep. She was supposed to be born in March, which was January 17th. Yeah. So Lily was born in January. And then January the following year, I found out that I was expecting twins very unexpectedly. So would I've been a surrogate again anyway? No, because of Lily's preterm birth. So having preeclampsia so severely, so early on. So I think I was diagnosed at 30 weeks. Yes.

That would automatically disqualify a carrier from going on to be a surrogate. again. Got it. Okay. So at least that was probably a definitive, like you don't have to think about this anymore. It was, and I do think that that was helpful for me too, like knowing, okay, this is definitely the end of this chapter of my life, which was okay, because it was still such a beautiful experience with Jesse and Michael. I don't think there is a gestational carrier out there who could probably be as fortunate as I was in finding. such a supportive, kind, intended mom and dad. We had such an amazing journey. That's incredible. Can I ask just my last real question for you, Amber, is like, after carrying the

baby and then you give it, you know, you give, you give her to Jesse. Was there a sense at any point of like, this feels really hard to not be taking home this baby that I carried for nine months? Yes and no. So it's not the taking home part. that was emotional for me. It was at first, I feel like as a surrogate, you really need closure on that part of your life. So for me personally, I can't speak about every carrier,

but for me personally, I was not sad that I did not have a baby to take home. When you're a surrogate, your pregnancy feels very different. Like you kind of just go on with your life and you've got this baby in your tummy, but it's not, it's not like this all-encompassing thing in your mind like your own pregnancies are like you're not

preparing a nursery you're not buying baby clothes sometimes i would forget i was even pregnant because it's just it's very different right so emotionally you're already really prepared for the end result i feel like because your brain is not on that wavelength of i'm about to welcome a baby into my home so anyway i was not sad that i wasn't bringing a baby home what was hard for me is this was, I don't think it was COVID yet. It was flu season, right? Two months before COVID. Yeah. Wow. So it was flu season and Lily was in the NICU and the hospital that we were at only let the parents back in the NICU, no visitors at the time, correct? Yep. Yeah. So initially, I was not allowed to. meet Lily. I didn't see her after delivery because they, you know, they rushed her off to the

NICU. And then I wasn't able to go back and visit with her. And I had a lot harder of a time than I anticipated with that. I felt like I really needed the closure of being able to see her, meet her, hold her, and say goodbye. Right. So at, I had a follow-up appointment with my amazing midwife at the time who you know she's like you something seems really off are you okay and I just broke down and I was crying in her office and I'm like no I'm not okay and she said you know what I have a friend in the NICU and I'm going to get you in there and we're going to let you meet Lily and say goodbye and she did so I got to go in and I got to spend some time with Jesse and Michael and meet Lily and hold Lily.

That was really soon or really close to when you guys got discharged, wasn't it? Yeah. And I remember we were fighting tooth and nail to get you in there. It was so crazy because we had originally Jordana envisioned Amber having this moment with Lily, having her kids meet Lily. Like we were even kind of discussing whether or not you would breastfeed just once just to like get everything stimulated. That like wasn't off the table.

We were like kind of going back and forth on that. Like we had this totally different expectation of what was going to happen once Lily was born. And have you sort of like seen, seen her since? Like do you, you know? We FaceTimed, but honestly, my life got so unexpectedly crazy. So with my first journey, they were from Chicago. So I got to fly up for that baby's first birthday and spend her first birthday with her. And that was just phenomenal.

That was just like the icing on the cake of that journey, being able to. celebrate her life. So I really, that's kind of what I had hoped for this time around two. But then I found out I was pregnant, had complications, and my own twins were born at 24 weeks. And we had an eight-month, Nicky's Day, and life just kind of never slowed down from there. Sure. So unfortunately, we've only been able to FaceTime, but hopefully one day we will all be able to get together again. Yeah. What an incredible story from both of you about being able to give Jesse this gift. For the next few weeks, we'll be bringing you a segment called Positive Reinforcement, presented by first response.

We know that waiting for the positive test is exciting, but also stressful. No matter what you're struggling with on your journey to conceive, we're here with a little positive reinforcement. The information provided herein is intended for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. always seek the advice of your position or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or the use of medical devices. Okay. Can you both offer some words of encouragement for people on this journey? Like, what do you feel if you're going through a surrogacy situation?

Like, what would you have wanted to hear on both ends of the equation? Like, what was something encouraging for the listeners? I would say it's going to be worth it. And I feel like that sounds cheesy, but it's really true. I mean, it's just so hard. It's so incredibly complicated and just to keep pushing. And it's just the most rewarding, amazing journey once you're in it. That's encouraging to hear.

Sometimes I'm sure you question as you're going through years and years of infertility of, you know, I just give up. This seems like very, very hard. So here at the end that it all is worth and it all kind of the stars align is really nice to hear. What about you, Amber? You know, I'm going to go in with something very similar and say, It's hard. On the surrogate side, it's really hard, too. You know, you go through a lot of, like, injections and hormone medications. And in the beginning, you're like, is this really what I want to be doing? It's tough. The end result is going to be more than you can imagine. It's going to change you as a person in such an amazing way. Really, the biggest advice that I have is lean into your support person as much as you can, whether that you can. your spouse or your mother or your best friend. I was really fortunate to have a really supportive husband and he, you know, really, really helped me get through the hardest parts. And yeah,

it's all worth it. It's going to be great. It's going to be amazing. Amazing. That's really encouraging for the listeners. And again, thank you guys both for coming on and sharing your story. I know it's not super easy to do. So thank you. And thank you to our sponsor First Response. For nearly 20 years, First Response has supported Resolve's mission to empower the infertility community. through providing resources and support for individuals and couples on their path to parenthood. Resolve.org is home to many resources for the infertility community, including free support groups, books, and more. Resolve is dedicated to ensuring that all people challenged in their family building journey are empowered by knowledge, supported by community, united by advocacy, and inspired to act.

All first response pregnancy test products are available for purchase at all major retailers in store and online. Be sure to pick one up today. And then, Jesse, I wanted to quickly get. to your agency, surrogacy simplified. Can you just explain kind of like where that came about and a little bit more about that? Yeah. So I am a surrogacy consultant and concierge and I knew that I had just felt like, as you probably heard in my our journey, so many roadblocks felt like there were so many obstacles. And I just felt the sense to fill in the gaps for intended parents. There's so much feeling of overwhelm and support. I remember like the dread waiting for

calls from the fertility clinic, being afraid I'd be in an important meeting and miss the call, like just wanting that support, someone to answer questions. So I formed my surrogacy consulting firm really to guide intended parents. So for those that might meet on social media or have a family member or friend willing to carry for them, I provide end-to-end coordination. So I manage the entire journey on their behalf. And then like it's almost like they feel like they have like this best friend involved too with them. Like I'm in it with them. They can text me questions. We meet weekly face-to-face virtually so that we can sort of project manage all of the things. And if it's a set of intended parents that need to work with an agency to match,

I don't directly facilitate matching. I will help them pick an agency based on their needs, whether it's cost, time to match, location of the surrogate. And then I'll work with them in tandem with the agency. When Amber and I went through the journey, the agency did a great job, but I still felt like surrogacy is so overwhelming. There was a million little detailed. Amber, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, that I filled in the gaps with, and it's

incredibly time-consuming. So my goal is to really take all of that off of the intended parents' plate and support the carrier and just make sure everybody has this really, hopefully, stress-free, amazing journey. So you're like a fertility, a surrogacy, concierge of sorts. Yes, exactly. I'm like, I went with consultant concierge, but I feel like it's like best friend, unlicensed, unofficial therapist.

There's like a lot of hats to wear. That's amazing. So you've been doing this for a few years now? I launched last year. Amazing. Okay. Yeah. That sounds great. I'm sure that feels like for anyone going through this. This is something that they can like have a friend who knows exactly what they're doing. You can answer all the questions because it seems like really overwhelming.

I think you hear about it as an option just like even in the air and it just feels like I don't even know where I would start with that. So it seems like this website and, you know, speaking to you're the person that they would get to speak to. Yes. I'm a one-woman show. Amazing. So where can they, where can they find you? If someone is listening to the show, they're thinking about pursuing surrogacy, they need more information or they know they want to do it. How do they find you? Yeah. So on my website, they can book a complimentary initial consultation. And my website is surrogacy simplified.com. I also would suggest if they want, they can follow me on Instagram. I post a lot of resources and tips for intended parents and surrogates.

And that's also surrogacy simplified. At surrogacy simplified on Instagram. Yeah, at surrogacy simplified. And they could also email me and it's my name Jesse, J-E-S-S-S-I-E at surrogacy simplified.com. I love that. Thank you for doing that for women out there who are struggling with this. Amber, thank you so much for sharing your story. So incredible what you've done and what you're able to provide.

It's really the ultimate gift. And it's been so incredible hearing your stories together and what brought you together and how you've created this child that like it's just you know i'm sure it was such a miracle for both of you so thank you so much for coming on and we'll be back next time baby steps is produced by me gerana abraham and shannon casonne editing by horhe morales pico guest booking by ali friedlander and be sure to follow at everything's fine on instagram thank you to our sponsor first response a lot of us test more than once that's why first response created the triple check pregnancy test kit, which includes three different tests all in one box.

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