Oversharing - Baby Steps: The True Cost of Surrogacy Ft. Brian Kelly (The Points Guy)

Episode Date: November 10, 2023

Jordana returns for another episode of Baby Steps, and this week she’s joined by The Points Guy himself, Brian Kelly, to talk all about becoming a single father through surrogacy. Brian walks us through the entire process of having a child of your own as a single gay man in America, starting with picking the right fertility doctor and surrogacy service – you might be surprised which one he thinks you should find first. He also shares some of the pitfalls of the process, including why he ended up choosing a different surrogate than the one he was first paired with. They talk all about the options for picking an egg donor, how much control you really have, and what it was like to help deliver his own child. Plus, Brian gets real about what it actually costs to go the surrogacy route when you add everything up. Thanks again to our presenting sponsor, BetterHelp! Visit BetterHelp.com/BABYSTEPS today to get 10% off your first month. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Baby Steps presented by BetterHelp. I'm your host, Jordana Abraham, and on Baby Steps, we're exploring the various paths to parenthood that lay ahead when starting a family doesn't come easy. With the help of weekly guests, I'm taking you on my own fertility journey and asking the questions that need to be asked. Trying to have a baby, especially when you experience obstacles, can be a huge emotional and mental challenge. And that's why I invited BetterHelp to join us as the presenting sponsor of Baby Steps.

If you're thinking of starting therapy, I recommend giving Better Help a try. It's entirely online, convenient, and suited to your schedule. Just go to BetterHelp.com slash baby steps today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, help.com slash baby steps. Therapy can give you the tools to navigate the difficult transitions in life, and the path to parenthood is definitely one of them. My guest today is Brian Kelly, also known as the Points Guy himself, who is here to talk about becoming a single father through egg donation and surrogacy.

But before we get to Brian, as always, here's my sister, Dr. Naomi Bernstein, Welcome, Naomi. So happy to be here. Yeah. I mean, I think you're going to love this episode. I loved talking to Brian because, you know, we talk a lot on oversharing about, you know, how like limiting beliefs maybe hold you back. And I think especially for someone like Brian who's, you know, a single gay man,

there's not a lot of things in society that you see around single fatherhood. I mean, you see a lot around single motherhood. And you really don't see that much about men trying to have babies. on their own. So I think what he's doing is like really amazing, not just for the visibility of it and really showing people and normalizing that as something that you can do, but just kind of like, the really cool thing to me about his story is that he just like had this goal and then he just did all the little steps to get to this goal. And as a, as a man without, you know, like a uterus, it is hard to, you know, you have to do a little bit more than say a woman who wants to have a baby

on her own. There's like a whole process of like not only do you need to find an egg donor, but you need to find a surrogate to carry that baby too. So it's like a very complicated process. But I love that he kind of like made it seem easy in a way just like because like he really broke down all the different steps. And he's also he's the points guy. So he travels for work all the time. And he just made this life where he has this baby and brings this baby everywhere he goes. He just like really made it happen. And to me that's so incredible because there's probably so many reasons to say, I can't do this or I shouldn't do this or or it's just too big of a of a hassle to do all of these steps to get the life that I want. Yes, totally. And I think this is,

first of all, I love the fact that he's, you know, just doing it, figuring it out and doing it and doing it. And it's, I think, can be so inspiring for everyone single gay men out there, you know, coupled gay men out there. And even, you know, single straight, women out there who are kind of like, I just don't, I don't see this happening. I think what blocks people a lot of times is like, I had an idea of how this was going to happen. And it's not happening that way. So even for you, like I think I've said to you in the past, kind of like, you will have a baby. It's not going to, might not happen the way that you wanted it to happen or the way that you thought it would happen or the, you know, the easiest path. But if you want it to happen, like it will happen.

And I think this is a perfect example of if you want it badly enough, you can make it happen. Totally. And I think that like when you can make it into a positive thing of like, I'm just going to figure it out and there'll be some, you know, there'll be some probably roadblocks along the way. But if I just keep going and I have a plan and I just keep and I stick to it, like I will achieve my goal. And sometimes it gets really hard to believe. and I think that that's why the visibility of other people's stories can really be inspiring. Yes. That's why I'm so excited and happy for the world that you're doing this series and having

people like this on to talk about there's so many different ways that this can happen. And I hope start to normalize it so that there's more community around people who are trying to do single parenthood or trying to do things in a bit of a different way that they can kind of feel like this is possible because not only do I know this one person that did it, but even like for little kids. Like maybe there's a sitcom television show that starts to show more of this stuff.

So it's just normalized and people don't feel like this is such a stretch that this is something that's incorporated into society at some point, like different types of families and different types of parenthood. So I'm so excited that you're doing this. Thank you. Yeah. I think you guys are going to love this episode. And you also just get to find out like what it takes.

what it takes to become a single father, you know, in in 2023 and all the obstacles you have to jump over to get there. But that it can be done. So let's just jump right into the interview and we'll welcome Brian. We are here with Brian Kelly, founder of the points guy, father to Dean. Baby Dean. Baby Dean. He's turning a year and he's now walking. I'm like, slow down, buddy. This is a game changer that I was not quite ready for. Is it like everyone says it is that it just goes by extremely fast and you're like, I can't believe it's been for sure. But I also, I mean, I go both ways with it because everyone like maniacally told me like enjoy every second. So like I intentionally like I took two months paternity right away and then what I would recommend to other parents is potentially don't do all of your paternity in the beginning because they're sleepy heads and they're just like sleeping all day every day. And like that time certainly good to bond. But I am so thankful. I saved one month for when he was six months old. I spent the month in Portugal for my 40th.

Amazing. And it was so much cooler. You really kind of connect deeper. I mean, in the beginning days, your child, you're not really getting to know them that much. So, you know, sadly in the U.S., we have such a little parental leave that I didn't even think of splitting it until someone else told me. So if you can think about it, especially if you have a partner kind of sharing it, doing it later on is awesome. I'm sure because you get like a real bonding where they like are awake. Exactly. In the beginning, it's just like they really just need a warm body, you know, like just in and milk and sleep. I know, that's what I, because I still travel for work. And in the, my friends were like, I was feeling so guilty in the beginning. They're like, with all due respect, your son has no idea that you're like

there or not like the bottle in his mouth like sleep, you know. Who's there or not there for sure? But to back it up, I guess, just because, you know, on the show, we want to hear all different kinds of fertility stories. And so can it take me back to like where you were when you just decided that you wanted, you know, wanted to do this and to do this alone at the time, right? Yeah. So, well, I've always known I'm, I was supposed to be a dad. And I think before I came out in the 90s, late 90s, like, actually, I didn't come out to like 05 or 6 actually. But when I was like a little gay boy in the 90s, I was that was my biggest. I was like, I don't want to be gay because I want to have kids. And like, it was a huge conflict in my, in my life. And,

You know, I came out after college and kind of came to grips with it. But then I would say like late 2000s, I was like 2011, my friend who was a single gay guy, very successful in media. He. Is it Andy Cohen? No. But my friend Nate Richardson, who, he used to run Yahoo finance and guilt group. And like, so I met him in like 2011. And he was like, I'm having twins via surrogate. And I was like, what? You're allowed? You know, like, because this was before Andy, before Anderson. And he had these twins. And he lived in a fifth floor walk up in the village. and he did it. On his own. On his own. I thought he was insane. I was like, you're at least going to move from the walkup. I'm like, I can't do a fifth floor walkup like by myself, let alone. Imagine the workout.

So I remember just thinking to myself because I saw it. And I think visibility, we all agree, like is so important when you see someone doing something like so different. Of course. Yeah. And that's why like today I'm so open about this journey. And I like have loved all of the feedback. Even from straight women who are really good in their careers, having found the partner,

want to have kids. And I'm like, do it. You know, it's possible. And like, screw everyone else's. Everyone's always going to have an opinion. We all know, you know, the saying about opinions that everyone has them. But like, if you feel in your heart, which is what I've like always felt, my journey was different because I started the point sky.

I was 27 years old. It was a blog. Like the Betcha's story is similar. I was like, you know, it was 2010. I started a blog for fun. Had a job on Wall Street where I was making like 70K a year in my 20s, which is basically living in poverty in New York. Like I remember I had credit card bills.

I was like, so I started the points guy just for fun to make like a little bit of side hustle money. I was basically a travel agent. You would pay me 50 bucks and I would tell you how to use your points. Never at a million years. Is that still you're going right? Yeah. A little more expensive now. It takes a lot more to get me out of bed these days, honey.

My life changed so rapidly at age 27. The points guy started at age 28, it blew up. And then I started making millions of dollars in affiliate revenue, which was just like literally overnight. Right. New York Times wrote about it. I got in all the credit card companies were like, this guy knows more about our programs than we do. Let's start paying him. So it was like, it was almost like winning the lottery where I went from just one extreme to another in a matter

of like two months. Right. Well, you're you're sort of like the expert in this very specific field and that's sort of like. And there, you know, there were a lot of other smarter people in me. There were points bloggers. Everyone's always like, the points guy's the first blog. I'm like, no, there were many others for many years before. Yeah. If you Google, you see others, but none of them are as good as what you do. But none of them like made a business. Long story short, like the points guy just blew up. It has been the most incredible journey. I ended up selling it in 2012 to a publicly traded company called bank rate.

They owned credit cards.com. They bought the points guys as tiny little asset. They're like, let's make a bet on like the upscale credit card market. Right. Which was my audience. And then we just continued. Like year every year, doubling in growth profit. So throughout, you know, from 2010 up until 2020, I mean, I jet-setted the world.

Saw it all. Yeah. good, you know, we went from five employees to 10. We were in WeWorks. And all of a sudden, we had our headquarters on Park Ave and then a huge headquarters on Fifth Ave. Like, it was such a fun ride. I was going 2,000 miles an hour. I always knew I wanted to have a kid. But frankly, like, I was not supposed to be a father in those years. Like just I was, because I didn't say no to anything. Oh, Hilton, you want to go to the Grammys with us tomorrow? You know, this event, that event. But I did want to have a kid in my 30s. So like the pandemic hits. I'm in a relationship that I

should not have been in. But the pandemic for me was like I decided like the day I was going to quarantine, I knew shit was going down. So I broke up with my fiance. You knew that that was not going to that was, you know, they said in in the pandemic, it was either like an accelerator or for me. It was like an immediate. And I'm still friends with my ex-fiance and we laugh about it. We're like, we were never supposed to get married. But life was 2,000 miles an hour. I never had a chance to think. And in my head, everyone, okay, I've done well in business. Let me get a hot husband who is really fun. Okay, he'll do. Like, let's jet in the box. I've proposed nine months later. But like, that was not the way

it was supposed to go for me. And I knew that deep down. So like pandemic hits, go to therapy. I'm not even travel. I can't travel. So my addiction to travel was pulled off. And it was this unbelievable moment to reset, spend time with family. Well, it's almost like you find out who you really are when you're not, when you take away all those distractions. And it's like I had this beautiful home in Bucks County and New Hope. So anyone less, It looks amazing. Horses. Looks beautiful. I learned, I started riding horses in July of 2020 because I was taking my nieces.

And I've always loved animals. I've always loved horses. And I remember being like, I'm 37. Can I start riding horses? And my train was like, get on that damn horse, you know? So now I have five and live on a horse farm. I know like it's, but so 2020 was like the ultimate reset button. And it was the biggest, my friend and owner of Red Ventures, my current company just said to

me is like never waste a crisis. Like when you're in crisis, like, you're in crisis. just there are so many opportunities to use it to your advantage even when you like it's inconceivable to think that way. Yeah. That's actually an amazing like thing to hear I think. And especially for, you know, there's people listening to this who are thinking about, you know, having kids, but also in the midst of maybe like trying and it's not working. And I like that idea of like when you're in crisis, take advantage. Yeah. And like push yourself outside what you never thought possible. And if you're going through fertility, you know, there's so many ways to create families. And I think in our heads

and our family pressure, you know, and I know there's cultural, like, against surrogacy. I know a lot of my friends and, you know, with strong religious backgrounds are like, oh, I would never be allowed to do that. And I'm like, says who though. Right. You know, like, define your own path. And I know that's easy for me to say to someone who's like, you don't know my family. But like also like in this, we have one life to live. Like if we live our whole lives based on. on other people's standards. Like, it's just not the way. Yeah.

And there's like, there's so much stigma around anything that's not just like the normal path. And it's amazing to me how much people don't know about IVF and surrogacy. Like most smart people I know are like, wait a minute, your surrogate, what, it's not her egg? Like that, I would say 85% of people assume it's like the surrogate is the same one. They're like, but how do you know it's your baby and can take it home from the hospital? I'm like, you don't understand.

It's a fully, egg donor is 100% separate, you know, plus. my sperm in a laboratory, we made embryos. You probably know more than anyone who's had a baby quote unquote naturally. Yeah. I have seen my son. And actually the most, well, his birth was just, we can get into that in a minute, the most amazing day of my life. But I, when we transferred the embryo and I saw, you can literally see from a petri dish,

they double check your name, you know, social security number. I'm in the room with my surrogate who I loved. Oh my God. And she was a lesbian. Her wife's in the room. We just hit it off. like love, love, love them. And then, you know, I see my embryo. It's a nine-day-old embryo in the petri dish, you know, gets put inside. And I saw the embryo land in like the wall of her uterus. And I just

start sobbing. I just like in that instant, I knew I was going to be a dad. Right. And it's not, it's never guaranteed. You know, they say. It's like 60 or 70%. Yeah. And actually my doctor, so highly recommend Dr. Saeed Donishman, Dr. D from San Diego Fertility Clinic. Incredible. Like top notch. Yeah. So I, my surrogate ended up being in LA and I use. So even though I live in New York, I interviewed.

My other tip is this. Like when you're going to do surrogacy, don't go to a surrogacy agency first. Go and find the IVF doctor that you connect with, that understand your needs. That has done. If there's a specialty that you need, you know, if you're LGBTQ, highly recommend doctors who are very familiar with that. Dr. D. He's like the top LGBT doctor in Europe. because most European men, most people around the world have to come to the U.S.

I've heard that. It's crazy. Even in France. So super progressive countries, illegal to have surrogates. Right. I heard in Germany, it's illegal to test the embryos for, to see if they're like genetically normal. My friends in Canada, I was able to choose Dean's sex. Like, you know, because once you do your genetic testing.

So basically your odds of the transfer increased dramatically because I did, you can do genetic testing, which they can literally score. each embryo based on the strength and like all these different genetic markers of like the success. So I used my A plus embryo, my first try with the very solid surrogate who has had recent successful births. She was 29. Oh, she's done this before. Yeah. So this was her fourth child. And like the biggest, one of the biggest factors of choosing a surrogate is recent successful, uncomplicated births. So she had three in the last like six years. Okay. So that's and she's 29. Healthy. I was kind of naive. I was like, okay, you know, anyone will do sort of, but it's funny.

After my, I think I was also in denial because I didn't want to further complicate it because there's so many hoops to jump through that. But my friends who I've recently had discussions with like actually finding a surrogate, a lot with your child is determined during gestation. So like if you are, if you are really stressed, hungry, you know, exhausted during your pregnancy, that can have real negative impacts on the development of the child. So you want someone with good vibes. Good vibes.

You want someone in a stable home who has, you know, a stable job. Right. And I will say, you know, surrogacy is amazing what these women do. But there are surrogacy agents. This is a big, big business. Big, big, big business. Yeah. It's unregulated in so many ways.

Was the process overwhelming or was it kind of straightforward? Well, I got really lucky because my surrogate was amazing. We connected. Right. I didn't really rely too much on the agency. Once I connected with her, you know, it was like we were on the other sides of the country, but, you know, daily texting. how you're feeling, what are you doing?

Oh my God, you're feeling kicks now. And, you know, she'd be like, I have heartburn. I think he's going to have a full head of hair, like all these. But I'm also the mindset, like this was her fourth child healthy. Like, I'm not a micromanager. She knows what to do. She knows what to do. Don't mess with like a good thing.

So. Right. But I know for, and I'm also just not a control freak in that way. But I do know a lot of people who are like, no, no, no, like they have to eat these certain, you know, I'm just not like that in life. Like, right. I'm just kind of like, all right, this point, we got to let the process play out. She's an expert in human birth.

Yeah. She's had these healthy children. I know nothing. Right. But to back up like when, in terms of you said the egg is not her egg. Correct. Okay. So let me just back up to this process. So 2020 hits.

Okay. A couple months go through the pandemic. I'm like really having a clear mind. I'm like, okay, I really think I want to have a child. So I had one to my primary care physician who's gay and had kids. And he connected me to a surrogacy agency, like this tiny one in like Minnesota. Long story short, like I just didn't vibe. with the woman. And she was like really short with me in emails like, duh, you idiot. Like not, I'm a

first time father, you know, single dad. This process is so emotional. You would, you know, it's nice to bring some level of stuff to it. She was just a brat. Like there were emails where I'm like, am I miss. And what I will say to anyone in this process, like having a child so emotional, do not team up with people. You're not vibing with day one. You know, like put in the time in the beginning. I think that's an amazing advice because I think also it can kind of feel like once you've been with someone for a bit, even if you're not vibing, it can feel like, well, I've already, they already know my whole story. They already know the whole background.

And I will tell you now, once you see those warning signs, and if you don't like abort mission, I mean, not to use that term on this podcast, but, um, but no, seriously, like, it's never too late. And even with surrogacy agencies, like you, so I ended up, I was so lucky. Then I went to a different agency and they're like, okay, it'll be three to five years. There's a huge waiting list. So I'm like, so in the end, this is my. advice. First, find an IVF doctor you love because the IVF clinics work with all the surrogacy agencies. So getting in with the surrogacy agency helps get the process started. So, you know,

find your doctor that you like. They'll recommend agencies they work with seamlessly because that's what you really want, like a seamless connection between your IVF doctor and your surrogacy agency. Ideally, they have worked together before because there's so much like information that needs to be. Yeah. And I feel like if the further remove they are from each other, the longer things take, the more things get the communication sort of can can falter. And I do agree it makes the whole process. Yes. Even me like I've gotten blood work on Long Island and I see a doctor in New York City and it's still like there's a little bit of like a weird lag. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Our like medical systems are not as interconnected as it should be. So but then get in with the surrogacy agency. So the big ones like circle. I interviewed with all them and they're like, you know, it could be two, three, four years before you get a surrogate. And I'm like, I'm impatient. You know, and I'm like in the airline. world. I'm like, okay, where do I buy elite status to jump the line? And they're like, you can't do that.

It's, you know, human life. How many points? How many points for a sergeant now? But like, seriously, where's the priority boarding line? So luckily, the circus agency that I worked with, focus on LGBTQ families, elevate, love them. They actually DM me on Instagram because I opened up in an interview about how I wanted to have a kid. And they said, oh, we actually, if you ever want, we focus on LGBT men, single men, specifically like we work with a lot. And by the way, for anyone, you single people, especially gay, single people. There is a lot of like discrimination still. Even when you go to look for eggs, there were eggs that I would, like egg donors.

I'm like, oh, this is a perfect match. And then it would be at the very end stipulations. No gay people. Oh, wow. I didn't know that was even legal. And especially no single gay men or, yeah, totally legal to fully discriminate based on sexual orientation and single. Are a lot of the, you know, the surrogates or gestational carriers, I'm not sure what the term is.

Are they in like the West? Or they, it's another part of it. So, so yeah, so viving with your doctors and surrogacy agency. And then the surrogate itself is really important. And I have, you know, so I hit the jackpot. My surrogate, multiple, she had done it multiple times. She lived in LA, lesbian, awesome person, vaccinated, cool, loved her. Like in California is really expensive to do surrogacy.

However, it's the best state to do it because it's like there's so many protections for the parent. Like I had Dean's birth certificate ready to go before he was even born. All the legal work, paperwork, no questions asked. My friend who did it in 2011, he did it in Nebraska and a local judge wanted to be an asshole and literally just wouldn't sign the birth certificate for weeks. So he's in Kansas with his twins, single dad, trying to get home and, you know, an ass just decided to make his life hell. He eventually had to.

That stuff you don't even think about when you think about all the little things that go into. And to further complicate things today, you know, with all the Roe v. Wade happenings, with that being overturned. you know, if you want the ability to terminate a pregnancy due to, you know, irreparable harm to the mother or if like the embry, you know, if you want to have that option, there's a lot of states now that like you can't. And now there are certain states that will punish a woman for traveling out of state. Like it's getting really dicey. So my advice, of course, you know, my dad always told me cheap as expensive, you know, and I fully get, we haven't even talked about the money side yet, which is diabolical. So I've heard. But if money's not an object, you really want to

work in a state that's, you know, friendly towards women and surrogacy in general. And funny enough, New York State was vehemently anti-surrogacy up until a couple years ago. Yeah, Andy Cohen's second child was one of the first, if not the first baby surrogate from New York State. I did not know that. I didn't know you had to like. Yeah, it was really funny. It was blocked by a super liberal lawmaker. She was feminist. And from her perspective, surrogacy was like anti-woman. Exploitative. Exploitative. So she blocked surrogacy for years. she somehow was able to. So finally, New York State, one of the most liberal states now supports a woman's right

to choose to be a surrogate. If a woman wants to be a surrogate and give the gift of life to someone, it should be the woman's choice. I would imagine. I would imagine. I mean, that's the same thing with egg donation, right? Yeah. You should be able to choose, you know.

Right. Because you can also choose to donate your embryos. Totally. You know, like if you have any left is another, and they make you sign the form of like what, you know, what you do. Yeah, because you, most of the time, it's like either. You can't just give them away to people. You know, you either have to use them yourself or you could donate them.

Yeah. Right. Or they destroy them, I think. Yeah. Okay. So you found the surrogacy agency almost before you found the. Well, so in the end, my first surrogate company who I didn't end up using, she did introduce me to Dr. D.

So that was my blessing from that relationship, even though it didn't work out. Dr. D and his people, like immediately when I went there, I just, like, loved everyone. Like, they're just good people, top notch. and they at the same time I got a DM from elevate and I verified it with Dr. D. He's like, no, we love them. We work with them a lot. So that was like, okay, good.

Great. So my surrogate who was in L.A., she was able to drive to San Diego. So it was like the per, even though I had to fly across the country, I mean, who cares? I'm the points guy. Right. Yeah. It was a little bit annoying. I was really busy.

And one day I had to fly to L.A. for four hours and fly to Miami right after for an event. But it's like, so what? I'd rather be inconvenience than my, you know, surrogate who's. pregnant and during COVID traveling. So she was able to drive, which was a really added benefit. How did the process work with the eggs? Yeah. Oh, so the eggs, that's a whole other process. So the eggs, you can, you know, if you're interested, you know, today, you can sign up at egg agencies and they'll, a lot of times you have to email them and they'll give you a login. So there's two, so there's a lot of egg agencies that will only show you baby pictures.

And, but if you pay a premium. Like pictures of the, of the donor as a baby. Okay. But if you pay premium, there are agencies that will show you adult pictures, which for me was kind of important. I'm a visual person. And it's wild. I mean, I was in my house in my home theater and like I would pull out my phone and like airplay it to the screen. And we just go, I mean, you can search for height, ethnicity, religion. Yeah.

Education. Education. Health. You know, for me, what I looked for was like my gut instinct with this person. So like the egg donor I ended up choosing was like just seemed compassionate. healthy. I have family members who struggle with depression and mental illness, which is like, I don't, as we're learning more and more about that, like there were, and there are a lot of people who are very open like schizophrenia or this or that. And I'm like just for me, because

that I've, you know, I've seen. Well, I mean, that's, that's why is it's kind of like if there's one person with that and there's another person also with that, that's when it's more of an issue than it's just one person has that in their background. So, so anyway, so you can, you know, it really tests you as a person though. You're like, what do I? And some people, you know, know, how the health looks. You know, I did struggle with my weight a lot as a kid. So I was like, let me try to use someone who's like, you know, frankly, skinnier jeans, you know, because I look for a taller person or sure. That's a really interesting thing. So I'm six foot seven. I'm freakishly tall. Like, I'm too tall. Like, I love my height. I wouldn't give it up for the

world because I can walk into a room and I've used it to my advantage of my whole life. Like immediately, no matter where I go, it can be annoying. How tall are you? Do you play basketball? But also like, especially earlier in my career, like getting to know people. Like I really have this ability to leverage it to my advantage. So being tall is part of my identity. So I want my children to be tall. However, like my dad's 6.3 and my mom's 5, 6.6. And I ended up 6 7. I have a brother who's 6 6.6. Wow. My oldest brother's 6 foot. I wonder how that happens. I know. So I'm like, I also don't want it too tall, right? I don't want a 6 foot 9 son. I mean, honestly, I would love a 63, 64. Like that's a great.

amazing height where you're like, but not freakish hitting. Like I hit my, I have indentations on my head. Still, to the day, like hit my head on things. So, so, but you never know, right? Like my, so, but yes, I tried. I think my egg donor was 5.7. So. And my son is really big.

Like, he's going to be a big boy, which I don't know. I'm just kind of like, that's my life experience and I kind of wanted that for him too. It's kind of amazing how rat. It's funny you talk about like the egg choosing process. It's like a kind of amazing how rational you can be when you, you take like a love out of the equation in that sense. I know what I mean? You could really just think about, you know, like what you want the kid to be like aside

from, you know, this person's so annoying, but I love them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Or they're short, but I love them. And you can just get a vibe. I think, you know, as you get older in life, you kind of get like look at people and judge them. You, a lot of times are kind of right in terms of like, this person just looks annoying and

they're like, they actually really are. I don't want an annoying baby. Literally. So I basically, so I wanted like healthy, skinny, like healthy athletic and chill. I think my egg donor was a nurse and loved animals. And you never know whose genes are going to take over. But like my son is literally a carbon copy of me. It's like crazy. He's like. It's like. It's almost like you cloned yourself. It's everyone who meets my son is like he's literally you. Like he's so charismatic. He's on the go. It's like my mom is like he is exactly as you were. Like he eats everything in sight. Anything you give him. But he's a handful. Like he's, so, you know. Now you know what it's like to raise yourself. My mom is like, good luck. Because I'm like.

So then when you, if you have another one, can you choose the same? So this is what I do. So when you get eggs, you can buy like a single egg. You can buy like a batch of three, six, five, whatever. However, what I would recommend to people is just buy, especially if you want multiple kids, you can essentially pay for a cycle. So where the egg donor, you like choose your egg donor, they go through, they get hormones and everything. Retrieval process. You should retrieve an entire month's worth of

like anyone who goes through IVF does. I ended up getting like 30 eggs, which is awesome. That's great. Yeah. So she doesn't, it's not like the eggs are already there frozen. Some are, but when you defrost eggs, my doctor was like, you lose some. Right. It's it, they're more viable if they become embryos faster is what I heard. Correct. And my understanding is when you retrieve the eggs, you inseminate them all right away. Okay. And then they all live, all the embryos live for nine days until they hit blastocysts, which is like when it's like, okay, this is game time. These are the eggs that will actually be viable. And then you can do-

It's like the hunger games of just- So if you do genetic testing, you can then get the grading on each. So I had 30 eggs, 16 embryos. And then after genetic testing, I had six like high-quality embryos. That's great. Okay. And actually seven. I think one is kind of like on the edge, but would probably be fine.

Right. They all have like- And they say you should have three embryos per child that you want to have just. to be safe. Right. But if you do genetic testing with the top surrogate, my doctor's like, it's really an 80% success rate if all the stars align and you do the genetic and your surrogate's like primo ready to go.

Right. And also like, I mean, I think a lot of people doing IVF have preexisting conditions and issues, which maybe makes that rate a little lower. But in your case, in my case, when it's like genetically tested top notch embryos with a top notch healthy, perfect surrogate candidate who's, you know, and they time the science behind it like they know the exact second to do the transfer the day the you know they do so much up until the transfer the embryo they're checking every single day blood work and they know exactly like the right time to do it yes and you and the and the donor and the surrogate are all like reproductively

healthy so it probably again increases that right even with my my semen they put it through an obstacle course so basically my semen had to go through this crazy obstacle course where only like the very strongest survive. So they only use the very, very best. X-E-E-C-E-C-E-C-E. Yeah. They call it? Yeah. I speak in very unscientific terms, but yeah, so like they're, you know, through the process, it's kind of amazing. You're hopefully getting the very best, healthiest possible embryo and then child. This episode of Baby Steps is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's almost the end of the year. And this time, while it can be exciting, can also be really stressful. And a lot of people feel a lot of sadness and anxiety about it. And it's not

just the stress of finding gifts, but it's also the stress of seeing your family, of it starting to get cold, a little seasonal depression. But adding something new and positive to your life can counteract some of those feelings. And therapy for me is always something I go to when I'm feeling anxiety or stress around anything, whether it's the holidays, winter, or just like things that are going on in my life that are not going as I planned. I've been to therapy for over eight years now, and nothing has helped me quite as much as therapy has overcome whatever obstacles come my way. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just spell out a brief questionnaire to get

matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find your bright spot this season with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash baby steps today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-LP.com slash baby steps. We transferred the embryo and my egg donor. We hit it off. She's like, I'm not supposed to like tell you anything until I go for my checkup in 10 days. But she's like, my last three pregnant she's like, I knew within three days. She's like, I know being pregnant, honey.

And she's like, she's like, do you want me to text you what I think like this weekend? I'm like, duh. And she texted me over the weekend. She's like, Brian, I don't feel anything. Like, doesn't mean, but she's like just FYI. Like, I'm not feeling what I felt for the other three. Okay. So it's kind of like, you know what?

what's to be will be like you can't you know this is Nate yeah right you have more right you have more so I'm fortunate like and then um the next night I was at dinner with my parents I remember exactly where I was and I just get the pregnancy test and it was positive oh wow and I don't get chills thinking about it now and oh my God what a feeling like it was just like incredible I'm sure and then of course you're still like trepidation it's it's five date you know it's technically like two weeks because right embryo had nine days. But yeah, luckily, every test, everything was good. The pregnancy was awesome. I flew out for all the major appointments. Although now it's really amazing with technology. They have clinics

where, and actually, I think my favorite checkup was the 3D scan where actually I stayed at home and I watched on my computer. They can live stream. Oh, really? Yeah. And it's the 3D facial recognition one. Right. So I'm like, see the baby's face. So I would, you know, so it was actually, I got a better experience being at my computer screen than if I was in a room trying to hunch over at a TV. You know, so. So it sounds like the whole process went like pretty smoothly for you. It was, I'm very, very fortunate. So it was like I transferred the end of January.

So then she and she's like I came, she came a month, a week or two early for all of her babies. This was her four. So I'm like, oh, this baby's coming early. So I, my plans are to stay in L.A. for like the last month, which was fine for me. September in L.A. Like, and she, she was north of L.A. So I ended up like getting a place in Montecito.

So I had my little Oprah moment. So I rented an Airbnb or. You started your paternity leave early. I did. And I mean, because it was work. I still work from home. So I'm working from Montecito. I'm going to Orange Surrey Fitness every day.

I like really got into like beach walks, baby watch. You know, I'm just staring at my phone all day. I've got all the alert set up. So then she's like, oh my God, like three weeks. It was like September 15. She's like, oh my God, I'm like dilating. When was she do? She was due October 11th.

Oh, wow. Okay. So I'm like, oh, you know, I actually had just gone to the shark, Barbara Corcoran's a friend. And she was like, come to the shark tank premiere. So I'm in Studio City. I arrived to the Shark Tank premiere and literally get a text. She's like, I'm going into labor. I'm like, and she was like an hour and a half north.

And this was rush hour. You came out that early though. And then so she's like, I'm four centimeters. She's at the hospital. She's like, I'm at four centimeters you can't get. She's like, they told me to go home. She's like, I'm having spicy food for dinner. So I'm rushing up to Ventura County where she was.

And I mean, it was the most crazy experience. But she ended up being four centimeters. and then nothing. Like day after day. So she went home. So she's like still four centimeters, but she's like no contractions really. We went weeks where I was just on eggshells.

Like every night going to bed, I'd be waking up in the middle of the night. Like God forbid I'm missing because I, my friends. Do you go with her to the appointments? Yeah, yeah. But like at that point, they were just like,

I'll come back every other week or is every week. I'm like every week, but she's four centimeters. Like let's go every day. And they're like, Brian, like of course I'm so excited because it's my first. Yeah.

No, I'm sure it's like. But it's so funny because when you go to these appointments, I'm sure anyone who's listening who's at kids, like, you think the world's, you know, because you're having a kid, but it's like so routine for these offices. They're like. Right. They're not as excited as you are.

And I don't even understand force. I mean, I know that we had to get to eight or 10 or whatever to like really. And they'd be like, okay, just check. I'm like, don't you want to probe inside? They're like, no, because probing inside could like force labor, you know, like. I'm like, okay, Brian, stop giving suggestions on like what the medical community could be doing. But I was like, you know. So he didn't end up coming to October 8.

Oh, wow. But that's probably better for him. Oh, it's great. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, stop as impatient as I am. I'm like, keep baking, you know. How much did he weigh? He was 8 pounds 15. Oh, wow. And he was broad. Yeah, she had an epidural. And luckily, so she ended up getting induced because he was like, and, um, right before. So my friends are doulas. So I met with doulas before, which I highly recommend to anyone, just like understanding what's going to happen during labor. I heard. It's like a, it's sort of like a coach. Coach, yeah. So my friend Louisa Birch, she's amazing. She's like an independent New York City Dula. So she's like, you know, so she explained to me like skin to skin. She's like immediately do skin to skin. It's so good for the baby. It's so good for you. It'll bond you. Telling me about all the benefits. So my goal was just be in the room and hold him immediately. I didn't want them to wash him, weigh him. Nothing. He comes out. And he's done to me. Yeah. So the hospital was like, absolutely, no problem. And then the doctor was like, hey, like she's induced. she's starting to push.

And the doctor's like, yeah, like, he's like, you're not squeamish, are you? Do you want to deliver your child? Oh, wow. And I was like, what does that entail? Like, yeah, sign me up. And my surrogate was like, Brian, go for it. Like, so he's like, I didn't even put scrubs on. The doctor's like, oh, just put some gloves on.

And lo and behold, and she, it was like a 15, they induced her. She got her epidura on like 15 minutes later. My son was born. And you delivered him. And I delivered him. So I here I am. That's incredible. Gay man.

I've never had sex with a woman. staring. Yeah. How was your introduction to the vagina? You know, it's an incredible, incredible. I mean, so I've always had respect for women. But after experiencing childbirth, and my mom's like, I've never seen childbirth like you have.

Yeah, I'm sure we've never seen a vagina like you have. It's unbelievable. Like, and my surrogate was pretty petite. I actually was worried in the beginning they wouldn't let her have my child because I was a 10-pound baby. But they wouldn't let me put two in. They were like, one, yeah, she'll be fine. This is our fourth, you know.

Right. But it was amazing. Do you want to put two in? I'm sorry. No, no. That seems like a lot. Twins isn't for me. I mean,

all my friends who have twins amazing, but I just. Seems like a lot. One was good for me. Right. But yes, head started to come and the doctor's like, just put your two fingers on his forehead. And he was just like coming.

I'm like, how is he breathing? You know, like? And the lone before he came out and I pulled him out and just there's all these I posted one photo. So her wife videoed the whole thing, which was so cool.

So I have it from like my surrogates perspective. And I just, he just comes out. And I just start bawling hysterically, like looked at my surrogate. I'm like, thank you so much for like, what a gift. Like surrogates are angels on earth. Like she, you know, yes, they get paid, but it's nothing compared to the amount of stress. And like it really is such. Right.

The gift to give to someone. Literally. I mean, birth is dangerous. Like you could still even at per, you know, there's still a lot of risks that these women take to like make people's lives come true. and the nurses in the hospital, first of all, they were like, we've never had a single man pregnancy.

You know, so they were, all the nurses were like, this is the first time ever experiencing this. With a single dad. Yeah, like having a surrogate, like with no,

no mother. They're like, well, that does seem like to be almost a relatively new thing. You see like Anderson Cooper. Yeah. It is.

I mean, I went to the post office to get his passport, like, which I highly recommend everyone, like, once you're home from the hospital. I mean,

you're the points guy. He should have been born holding a passport. Just get it. Just get it. done, but I went to the password and they scream at me, excuse me, we, you know, because it says everywhere both parents have to go. Like online, it's like 88 places. Both parents must be there. So I go in with Dean and they scream at me like in typical post office fashion. We told you

online. Bring your wife and come back again. And I'm like, uh, excuse me. Like I'm a single father. And they were like, what? And they were like, everyone come here. We've never seen this before. They were like, really, huh? How do we do it? You know, it was like, it was really funny. They like kind of apologized. You must feel like a little bit like a pioneer. Yeah.

I mean, in a way, I, now I think it's so normal because we see Andy and like, but it's actually very recent. Yeah. And it's actually very rare. I mean, the hospital, you know, but the hospital was amazing. Like, so what I would tell people is like, like, you kind of think there could be discrimination, especially now traveling always, I always travel with this birth certificate because with child trafficking, I went to Belize.

with him last year and they were very strict. And I had read online, but luckily I've had no issues. And luckily, too, I'm like, you can Google me. You know, like there are new stories now about this, like where I have some like credibility if people ask. Because it, you know, child. Yeah, but that must be tough for anyone else who's, you know, an normie, so to speak. Yeah. Like, you know, that is something to think about. Yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, I have trepidation going to certain countries where LGBT rights are not even accepted. So, you know, so I'm I'm like still, Dean's been to 10 countries in his first year. He's an amazing traveler. But there's what I would say to anyone is, but it's don't let your like discrimination or like,

it's still possible. You can do this. Like it's not as hard as you think. Can you talk about like the finances that go into this thing? Because let me have a cocktail. That seems to be like a big. It's crazy. I mean like took my breath away. So basically, I mean, you're looking at, I'm thinking about having my second and I to the agency I was like can you send me the list of costs because honestly the first time around I almost was just like turn away you know like I'm having this I have no choice it's like check check because it's not just like the egg donor there's so many fees and there's insurance fees and then I have like executive amazing insurance but I had to pay cash $41,000 for the birth pre because my child wasn't in mind because like if I would have knocked up on a

one-night stand my surrogate, 100% covered everything forever. But because I am gay and had a surrogate that I intentionally wanted to have a child, my health insurance wouldn't cover him until he was born. That's very frustrating. Yeah. And there's actually a bunch of lawsuits going through like state employees of New York, like it's discrimination. So eventually that I'll get sorted, but, you know, it's up to companies now to really. So let me just pull open like the list. And I mean, again, you're a successful guy. So if this number made you flinch, so just, I can only imagine. So the global estimates for surrogacy, if you do it in the U.S., it's basically two to two 72. Oh, wow.

So basically. All in. Yeah, all in. Like, what's the bulk? What's the biggest cost? What's the biggest cost? So the biggest cost is agency fee. Well, no, no, no, the surrogacy.

So surrogates get between 50 and 90. Okay. The agency gets between 50 and 90. And why I say 50 to 90, the agency, the one that I had been talking to, has a normal program. for $50,000 or you can pay 90 a VIP program where you get to see all the surrogates in the system. As adults. No, no, no, the surrogates. So basically most surrogacy agencies will do one-on-one matching.

Like when we decide you get someone. But if you want to see all the surrogates in their system, you can just pay double. Oh, wow. So you can select which one you want. And this is after like for most agencies, I'm sure, have their own waiting list already. Correct. And then it's just like the IVF is like 30. well IVF is 36 to 43 legal is another huge 20K right you would imagine because IVF is covered by a lot

of people's insurance it should be you would think that's also something that they should be changing yeah so it's fregan you can go to Mexico um you can go to other countries to get the cost down but it's huge and even what they I would just say recommend to anyone whatever the agency tells you budget like 20% more at least right that's not even talking about you you you know, baby nurses and all of that. I mean, it's been, I'm so, I'm lucky I waited until I had the funds to do this. Being a parent is the most amazing thing in the world. Like, and I've, you know, but like I'm so fortunate to have help.

I really had to sit and think, like I love my son so much, but not having help. Like, is. Yeah, especially I'm sure if you're doing it alone as you. Yeah. And as a working parent. But so many people do it. You figure it out. But I mean, I'm super fortunate that I, you know, from day one, I've had, I had an amazing

baby nurse for the first three months who like taught me so much. Was there any any issues that you encountered like kind of have, you know, were you dating while you were waiting for him to be born? So I stopped dating when I was waiting for him to be born because I was like, I can't possibly be in a new relationship and in a new relationship with my son, who's going to be my number one priority, no questions asked. Like it's just like I knew I just wanted to put everything. And so I stopped dating before my son was born.

And then for the first three months, I mean, I was like, I'm not going to go on a date. I've got my son. And then I turned 40 this March and I spent a month in Portugal. So then I was like, let me just start dating when I come home from Portugal. Okay. Because I didn't want to start dating someone and then like have this really, I had like a bash in Portugal with like. You wanted to be single.

Yes. Yes. So I came home from Portugal at the end of March, the March 25th. And then April 1st, I was out in Philly like with the first friend's birthday and like met my current boyfriend who's like the sweetest. It's been like six months now. How did he feel about?

I told, I mean, I was just straight up. And that's what I was like having a baby. I'm like, look, great. This is the ultimate equalizer. Like, I tell everyone straight in the beginning. Great, don't waste my time. I won't go on a date with someone who doesn't want to have kids. Right.

And he's younger than, he's 10 years younger than me, but he wants kids of his own one day. You know, he is so good with my son. My son, like, loves him. So we'll see. That's great. And I think that's a great way to go about it because I'm sure, you know. I could not imagine. Being a new parent, everything that you know is upside down.

Like everything is like challenge. Your schedules, your like friendships, your family relationship. Like factoring in giving someone else a lot of your time to make sure they feel special. And like no. Right. I'm sure it can be done, but I don't, I couldn't have done it. And also just I feel like that's such a confident way to go about it. Because I'm sure there's people who have, you know, kids on their own because they want them who kind of worry, you know,

will people be turned off by the fact that I have this child or that I did this. this, I didn't wait for, I didn't wait to meet someone to do it with them. But I think the way that you're describing it is so much more empowering where you're just like, this is like if you're not buying what I'm selling, then I'm not interested in even going out with you. Correct. And I think, I mean, if you tell someone I had a baby as a single parent, like it shows you a lot of things. Like, A, you've got the ability to follow through on something to move mountains to get what you want to, you know, be, I'm not dedicated. I'm not waiting for anyone. I'm not waiting. You know, like, which also could, and I'm sure for single women, that could be a turnoff, but also like you want to be with a

strong man anyway who's going to support. So that's my thing in life, whether I tell people like, should I come out or not? What if my family doesn't? Stop caring about other people. Like it will fall in the place. Make yourself happy. Focus on your own health and energy and what you want in life. And the rest will follow. But don't be, you know, if you really want a kid and then you wait so long and then, you know, sitting and spending the rest of your life, what if when that opportunity passes is way worse than doing it. Right. You know, we make in our head these like scenarios that. that are worst case. Think of the best case.

Like having a child, if you wanna have a child, there is no other, there's no boyfriend or, you know, like there's no feeling you can get like when your child looks at you and like the cutest way or when you see them make these huge milestones and you know that like the love you're giving them is like you're bringing this next generation onto this earth.

So I say I'm all for like supporting people to do it your own way. Right. You'll figure it out. When you become a parent, you just learn to figure shit out. That's what it seems like. And no one's doing it 100% right.

Like, you know, being a working parent, like, you're always going to feel guilty. Like, am I spending enough time? Am I, like, but the beauty of parenting is like, no one is doing it fully right. But, like, I think just doing it. If you believe in your heart today, you want to have a kid. And with IVF and stuff, everything takes long time. So you don't have to make the decision today. Like, start the process of checking your fertility.

You can, you know, start interviewing doctors. Like, the process takes a while. How long would you say it was until when you started looking into this to when Two years. Two years, which is actually pretty quick. Yeah. So I started October 21 and I had him October 23. Okay.

And I had one false start. I had an egg donor that, so you will have issues. You know, most like, you know, I had an egg donor that like lied and said she didn't smoke. But when they did her blood work, she had like all this vaping, you know, she was a vapor. And I'm just like, well, she lied about that. What else did she lie about? Well, can you trust her to like. So then I had to stop, go back to scratch.

And then, you know, it takes a couple months to like ramp up a new donor. So luckily mine was pretty. I had a very good process. I know a lot of people who have not. Even with your good process, though, it seems like they're still still. I have a good friend who once I had my dean, he was like, and he's super, super, a very successful business person, single gay man, early 40s. He's like, you inspired me.

So he used my doctor and my agency. And in one year he had a baby. One year. Yeah. And because he's just like, he's an A type corporate type. He's like, no, like he trucked through the process, expedited it. Like he was. What a time to be a lot.

that you could have a baby probably in less time than most people who are just like, you know, a married heterosexual couple might have one. If you're like, you can do it in a year, don't let people, you know, you find one agency that says, no, there's a three-year waiting list. There's always another agency. Like, don't take no for an answer. Right. That's amazing.

Thank you so much for sharing this whole story. Is there anything I didn't ask that you feel like would be really helpful for anyone to know? I think we covered a lot. No, I think we covered a lot. I think the core of any IVF journey is like just getting the doctor and like the office. that you feel really supported by and like they can help guide you through the rest. I think that's a great thing to note no matter what kind of like fertility thing you're going through is to just make sure that you trust the people because your,

the whole plan is really in their hands and there will be ups and downs. And so you need to kind of feel like you trust their process and their skill level. And because we're not doctors, but yeah, right? You have to trust so many people. You have to trust a surrogate. You have to trust, you know, like. Bives or everything. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for coming on. I think it's so amazing what you're doing. Also just invisibility for, you know, anyone who wants to be a single parent, but especially like a single dad. I think that that's, you know, not something you've seen at all. Up until the past three, four years, I hadn't seen that anywhere in pop culture. So I think it's amazing what, what you're doing. And thanks again for coming on.

Thanks for having me. And yeah, it's been the best decision I ever made. Amazing. Well, you heard it here. Probably not first, but also. Thanks again. We'll see you next time on Baby Steps. Thank you again to Bron.

Ryan Kelly, so amazing to have you on. And thanks again to our presenting sponsor, BetterHelp. I hope this episode has been a help to you on your path to parenthood. If you want to get started with therapy, I highly recommend trying BetterHelp. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Baby Steps today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Baby Steps. Betches.