Oversharing - Breaking An Anxious Attachment Style

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Jordana starts off this episode by asking Naomi about how she feels now that her kids have cell phones. The Oversharing email of the week is from a listener struggling with anxious attachment. Jordana shares her own similar experiences and how anxiety creates the illusion that everything is personal. They answer a Betchicist about feeling bad for ghosting a situationship. Which leads to the bigger question of, how plugged in should we be? Then, they offer an intention for an “Unlikable Betch”. How do you overcome the feeling that no one likes you? Finally, they rate some Triggered scenarios about a gift withdrawal and a harsh critique from a supervisor. Check out our latest promo codes here: https://betches.com/promos Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Gervana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And happy New Year.

Happy New Year. You're back from down under. I am. I'm back for our final recording. in real time of the year. By the time it airs, it will be next year. But I had a great trip. It's very fun, short and sweet. And yeah, I felt like you would have, you would have enjoyed this kind of trip because it was like a lot of, like, I feel like you're like very athletic. It was like serping and like being inside and a lot of seeing cool stuff. It was, it was very cool.

I also kind of felt it felt very like California-y. Yeah, totally. I feel like, I feel like Australia was number one on my list of places to visit until I had kids and I realized that it probably like wasn't in the cards for me to go to the other side of the world. But it does look really awesome. Surfing and the best, my favorite, well, there are two pictures that I thought were amazing that I saw. One was you and was that a baby koala that was like the cutest average age? It was average. I think so. It was just, it looked so comfy in your arms. It was just sitting there like did not look disturbed. It was extremely comfy. It's a very soft animal. And it's funny, they were saying like koala's sleep like 18 to 20 hours a day or something. So it kind of reminded. I felt like they were like the stoners of the like animal kingdom. Right. They were just like, because they had so many of them there. They're all just like literally sleeping in trees all day. Oh my gosh. That was. was so cute. The kids were insanely jealous. They were like, why does Jojo get to go to Australia and

hold a koala? I thought they were just going to be focused on like how adorable it was, but they were they were overcome with jealousy. I will be honest. Oh, well, um, they'll have their chance, but I have to say I did feel like like, like, um, to make you feel a little bit less jealous. I do feel like you could get besides the animal part, the rest of the experience, something pretty close to it in like California. Okay. That was the kind of vibe I got obviously like different culture, interesting accents, little like, you know, there is a different culture. But generally speaking, I did feel like you could go to California and have a similar experience. Right.

I hear about the food. Was the food like different? The food is sort of like they have foods from all over the place. Like there's some slight different like native Australian foods, but they have a lot of different cultures. there. So we had like amazing like Chinese food there. Right. So like there wasn't. I would say the food wasn't that different.

We didn't have like the most authentic Australian food. Like we weren't eating kangaroo or anything. Oh, do they eat kangaroo? I thought they were like precious little creatures to them. I think it might be like a delicacy potentially. Okay. I don't want to speak out of turn. And they have like they have these things called.

I thought on the menu that it was like that they had bugs in things because they would call everything bug something. And then I asked and they were like in Australia they call like the like the shellfish like crustaceans bugs. Oh, bottom feeders or something. Interesting. Okay. So not as exotic as I thought. But it was it was definitely a cool trip. I had a lot of fun.

It was nice to be outside and a little bit more warm. And yeah, how have you been? I saw Lila got a phone. I meant to ask you about that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. I have to check with the mediatician, but we did, we did. We got these very basic phones. They have no apps. It's just calling and texting. I didn't know you could do that. Yeah. It's not like an Apple phone.

It's like a kid-friendly, specific phone that's like designed for kids. So you're very linked. Like you could tell exactly where they are. It tells you if their battery is dying. And, you know, it doesn't, it's very limited, which I like because, you know, I've talked a lot about the addictive nature. And even just with the texting alone, we got it two days ago. It's already kind of addictive. Like I'm sort of having, I'm not having regrets because I got it for them.

Like if they're, you know, they do activities. and if we're running late to pick them up or, you know, they're at a friend's house. Like we've had a situation where like if they're at a friend's house and they kind of want to come home. Right. Like they have to then ask the parent. Yeah. Right.

Can I call my mom? And then the mom's sitting there listening while they're saying like, I want to come home. So that feels kind of awkward. So we've had that situation. So I got it for them so that we can communicate when we're separated. But obviously they're obsessed with it and they're, you know, know, texting everybody. They might just be like binging on it because they just got it.

And then once the novelty wears off, like, I don't really think it's that much fun to be texting everyone personally. Right. So like maybe once they, you know, now that they like can have it, they won't be as excited about it. Or maybe they will. I don't know. You know what's funny is when I was their age, they had like, we didn't, I didn't really

have a cell phone at their age, but we did have AOL instant messenger, which they've discontinued at this point. that doesn't even exist anymore. So I feel like it's kind of cool that they can, like, I was wondering, like, what do kids use to speak to each other all day? Because we used to go on the computer. You used to just have to be on the computer. Yes.

And then you'd have to go to dinner. So you'd be like, you put your away message on and then you'd go to dinner and then you'd come back. Right. Right. Right. So, yeah, it's me, I don't, I don't mind that. If they want to chat with their friends, I just think, and this is my personal thing,

I have this like fear fantasy of everyone in our house hold like being individually on their own devices in the same space. Like that's going to become the norm. So I think when I see them on it and they're on it, they're each on their phones. And like I look over and like Jeff's on his phone and I'm on my phone. I'm like, I do not want this to be our existence as a family. So that's kind of like the ultimate fear. do think they're just binging on it right now. And they're enjoying connecting with, it's not like they're on, you know, Instagram or TikTok or, you know, social media or looking at, you know,

just watching endless, mindless YouTube videos. They're literally just, you know, they sent you a text. They're texting people. They're like communicating with real people in real time. So it is a form of connection. Totally. And I, I like that they're connected. I like that they can, you know, text you. But even things like they can't send, they can't send you a link. They can't receive a link. there's none of that stuff. It's just actual conversation. What about a picture? I think they can send, I don't know, actually, if they can send a picture. I think they can send a picture. I don't know. We'll have to try that out. Cool. But there's no internet. But yeah, so that was a big step. And it's cute slash a little bit scary. Well, I'm proud of you for, you know, for going out of your comfort zone and

letting you have a little tech. And I have to say, I think your worst fear, will probably come true at some point, not constantly, but like, I'm sure that will happen. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself if that's the case. Because like, because if you have to think about it, like, in a bygone era, everyone might just be locked in their rooms because they were like on their video games or on their, like on airwale and messenger. And you wouldn't even see them here at least. If they're distracted, it's next to you. Right. We could at least be like touching toes on the couch while we're on our individual devices. Yeah. Anyway, let me know how that goes as that unfolds. You got them for all of them? No, Brooks doesn't have one yet. He's, he just turned five. So I think he's also feeling a little bit

like, hey, you know, everybody has these devices and I don't have one. So he's feeling a little, I think, attention starved from them. Like they're more distracted. So he's adjusting to that. But we'll see if it doesn't, I mean, if it doesn't cool off and they're off also for the next two full weeks. So, or by the time this airs, it'll probably be a couple more days. You know, we'll see how it goes. And the beauty of it is I can always just take it away. I was going to say, now you have something to take it. Now you have some more power.

Totally. Give me that phone. Yes. For sure. I think I already threatened that this morning. Right. So it's, uh, it's working. Well, good luck.

Thank you. It's a new, a new chapter for sure. I guess let's go into our show for today. So, and guys, if you want to write into the show, you can email oversharing at Betches.com or you can call us and leave a voicemail at 646363, 6294. Let's get into the overshare. Should I read it? Yeah, I read the first one. Okay. Dr. Naomi and Jordana, first of all, I wanted to say I'm a huge fan of the podcast and really appreciate all the advice and insight you both provide. I'm hoping you can help me overcome an issue in my relationship. For some background, we have a really great loving and healthy relationship. We have been together for a year and a half now and have been living together for about six

months after doing long distance for quite some time. We met right before we were both about to move to different cities on two different sides of the country and because of this, we did break up for a few weeks before moving. Right before the breakup, I felt that he was emotionally distant, which made me extremely isolated and alone. Once we decided to do long distance, he put in so much effort. to overcome this hurt that I had been carrying and it was really appreciated by me. However, sometimes I still feel as though he is not as emotionally supportive as I'd like him to be. There seems to be one

consistent theme, an argument that repeats itself over and over again. And no matter how many discussions we've had about this, it has continued to occur about once a month or so. It usually starts with something small and spirals into a larger argument. The common theme that repeats itself is essentially this. I feel as though he is not being as emotionally supportive or empathetic as I'd like him to be, and he feels as though I'm being overly critical and that no matter what he does, it isn't good enough. For example, I noticed that lately he hasn't been texting me while he's at work to check in with me on how my day is going. I brought this up to him and he said, sorry, that he gets busy, and he didn't think it was important as he sees me at home every evening. I explained how it would be

nice to just hear from him once during the day as I work from home and I tend to get lonely and appreciate hearing from him now and then. He did agree, but I felt that he didn't seem to care or feel badly that I was feeling a little bummed out about this. From there, this is where the argument starts to spiral. I say he doesn't care about my emotions. I start crying, and I become way too worked up. I can recognize afterward that I should not have spiraled like that, but can't seem to stop myself in the moment. He was a response to me crying always makes things worse for me, as his frustrations with my criticism of him cause him to shut down and become somewhat aloof with me. He doesn't come from me much when I'm crying, and this makes me more and more upset.

He explains that he shows me he loves me in so many ways, which I do agree with, and know to be true. He feels like no matter what, I'm always finding an issue with him. He has said that if he doesn't react or respond in a way that I've scripted for him to respond, then I get upset, which I can agree with. We both always apologize and do our best to discuss the whys behind each of our sides of the situation. For example, with this particular, you never text me at work fight. I'll explain that it's not about the text. It's about my insecurity that things are changing between us and he doesn't feel the same way about me. Or that our relationship is going to start to become flat or boring as time goes on between us.

My overcriticism is an attempt to make the relationship as perfect as I can make it. He explains that he has a hard time comforting me when I'm crying because he's frustrated himself and feeling over-criticized. I realize I have the ability to stop this from happening if I can overcome my feelings of anxiety. I see that my anxiety is hijacking a lot of these situations that could otherwise be avoided. My question is, how can we break this cycle? Jordana, have you ever experienced something similar with Mike? Dr. Naomi, is this something you've heard of before? I'd love to hear your professional recommendation as well.

Thank you both. Anxiously attached, Betch. All right. I think this is a very common dynamic. 100%. I was going to say, I've had this fight in early, especially early in my relationship. Okay, so how did it go and how is it going? It definitely used to be like, I don't really have this fight anymore at all.

And maybe that's because I think that's like you said like because or we've discussed because I feel a lot more secure in the relationship now. Like I don't really have fears of being left like I used to. I think partially obviously that's due to like being married now and just feeling like confident in the stability of the relationship. but I think it's like this big fear. But also like, I mean, I also, I would say Mike is not the most like overly emotive or overly checking in kind of person.

And like now it's so much less, I still remind him to, I'll still ask him to do that stuff more, but it's so much less like heated. Now it's like a friendly reminder. Like when I went to Australia, I was like, before I went, I was like, you know, it would be like so great. if like randomly on this trip you just like when you're thinking about me you just like text me how much you miss me just like randomly what I least expect it yes and he'll like do it yes but it's not like in the beginning of our relationship where I would be like you know if he would like fall asleep and not text me before he fall asleep and I was like away with friends or on the road I would like freak out

that he was like you know not checking in or not caring enough or not like or going to break up with me or it meant something so much bigger than it did. So I can totally relate to that. And I don't want to say the answer is to get married. Right. That seems a little far off. But I do think like, she even says it herself, like the anxiety in itself creates this thing where like it's not even just about the thing. It's about how heated you are around getting or not getting the thing. Yes. Yeah. And it comes down to what we always talk about, which is like, having that calm body and like recognizing that your anxiety is living in your body and not necessarily acting on it until you can sort of calm yourself and calm your nervous system down a

little bit. But I guess in hearing you share your story, maybe it can give her a little bit of confidence that just because your partner isn't doing these things naturally and that he does need some reminders doesn't mean that you're not going to end up staying together forever. You know, because there's a lot of people in your position that were like, it wasn't like Mike was just naturally always like wanting to check in with you and naturally if you were upset about, you know, him not doing that, that he was, you know, hugging you and saying, I love you so much. I don't want you to be upset. I understand like leaning into the, when you were upset with him about it. Because I think that's a common dynamic. And I'm sure it's helpful to hear your story that

you were in a situation where this wasn't coming naturally in the relationship in the beginning, all of the reassurances that she needed. Because I do think she's calling herself an anxiously attached batch. And I think that there probably is an anxious attachment on her end. And she is trying to take responsibility for her part of it, which I think is great. And there's definitely a lot that she can do there. Like you said, aside from getting married just to, you know, calm herself, to know that just because he's not texting her, it doesn't mean that their relationship is falling apart. Just because he's not like necessarily, he's getting defensive in those moments when she's saying

you didn't text me doesn't mean that he doesn't love her anymore or he doesn't care. He's just having his own reaction to being criticized. Yeah. And I think I definitely relate to that whole like, oh, the person winds up. giving you the opposite of what you need because they're feeling like you're just like angry at them all the time. And so instead of leaning into you, they kind of want like more space and days from you, which is the complete opposite of what you need. And like you said, like to give it space and to come at it in a much more calm way, which is very hard to do in the moment when you feel like triggered by like

a lack of text or a lack of something. But I think that what the, I also think, you know, they were doing long distance. They're only six months living, they're living together. So they're really getting to know each other in a lot, in a different way than their relationship has been before. Right. And they had a breakup too, which is, I think for her was probably slightly traumatic and maybe really, if there was already some of this anxious attachment there, it probably

solidified that. Right. Because they did break up. And she even said that he was like being a. emotionally withdrawn prior to the breakup. Right. So now she's like unheightened awareness for any signs and symptoms of him pulling back emotionally. Yeah.

And I think that, I mean, it sounds like she's doing her best to communicate it. I think if you give it like, like you said, give it some space, but also come at it from less of an angry position and more of like a like she said expressing. like sadness or just or like a gentler position because I do think if you're like yelling at someone for not texting you, it doesn't make them want to text you. And I'll repeat this book that I read that my psychologist had recommended, which was don't shoot the dog. Right. Which was about much more about like positive reinforcement instead of, and it sounds weird to be like trading your boyfriend. But instead of, you know, instead of yelling at someone when they don't do what you want to be like

positively reinforcing them when they do. Because people, are just much more likely to like come towards you in that way. So, you know, the next time he did send you a text at work, be like, oh, I'm so hot. That made me so happy. Thanks for whatever. Instead of like, and you only checked in once this week. And I think we talked about this like as an example for when, let's say you call your mom and you don't call your mom that often. And then when you do call your mom, she's like, and you never like, finally you called me. Like you never, you'd be like, oh, I'm not calling you anymore. Because this is as opposed to if you called her and she's, she was like, oh, I was just like, this made my day.

This is like when my dad answers when I call on, you made my day. This was like such so amazing to hear from you. Right. I'm so glad you called. You're like, oh, like, that felt a lot better. I'm going to keep coming back to do this. Totally. There's the positive reinforcement.

And then there's also this feeling of like, I'm not being controlled by your anger, which nobody likes that feeling, you know, like I have to act in a way to avoid you being upset with me. So yes, I agree. And I think, you know, what you mentioned earlier, I think is also an important part. And, you know, even 15 years into a marriage, sometimes there's just certain aspects that don't come as naturally for somebody. So if he's, when he's at work, if he's like digging into his work and he's, you know, focused on that and he's not really thinking of texting you, I think you can give him the gentle reminder without the feeling a lot of people feel like, well, I don't want to have to ask you to do it or check it. Right. Or in the guy, it's probably like, I don't want to be like checking in so that like I don't get yelled at. Right. It's like another thing on his to do list that he has to, you know, make sure to message you. But I do think that if you can say to him maybe the night before or that morning, like, I'm going to be working from home all day

tomorrow. If you have some time, I'd love to hear from you just to kind of plant the seed in his head. Give him a little reminder. And then maybe he can actually go ahead and do it. is waiting for him not to do it and then getting angry with him for not doing it. And I do think the way that she approaches him not doing it is really important. Her waiting until she's like all pent up and then kind of coming at him and starting to cry. He just sees that as you're a bad boyfriend. This is what he's hearing. You're a bad boyfriend. You don't care about me. You're not doing these things that I keep asking you to. And so he's not responding well to that. So I think think it just has to be something like, I really missed you today, like you said.

You know, because what happens is he's trying, if you read this back, he's saying things like, okay, yeah, I'll do that. She asks him to text her. He says, okay, sure. And then she continues with, but now you don't care enough, then I'm upset about this. So it's kind of like, what do you really want? Do you want the text? Or do you want him to give you. you a hug and say, I'm sorry you felt lonely today. If that's what you want, then that's what you have to ask for because you're asking for the text. He's saying, okay, and then now he feels like, okay, you're mad at me about the text,

and now you're mad at me, and I said I would do it. And now you're mad at me again because I didn't like give you a hug when you were telling me you were upset and say, I'm sorry, you were lonely today. But you, so now he just feels like you're doubling down on he's a bad boyfriend. and that's when he's pulling back. I agree with that. And I think that when you say it actually can feel like, oh, like, I'm like now forcing this guy to be romantic or I'm forcing this thing that's like this guy that he doesn't

really want to text me and making him texting, which is another thing in your head that she's probably like going over, over analyzing repeating too. But what I've actually found and what I've come to terms with is I actually think it's more romantic when someone does something that is not in their nature because you ask them to and it makes you happy. Right. Like I think that's almost like nicer than like, oh, he's texting everyone all day. Like and. And I'm just one of them. Right. And I'm just one of those people that he texts or like he texts. He does this. Because you know, the thing that comes most naturally to someone is the easiest thing for them to do. So even if it's something you like, it's still not like it doesn't, it doesn't show as much

effort as someone doing something that's not in their nature or something. And to me, it seems counterintuitive, but to me, those are the most romantic things. Like when Mike, when I got him to start writing me really nice cards on my birthday or a Valentine's Day or an anniversary, like to me, it means more because I know when he writes it, it's like not, it doesn't come that naturally to him. And now he like tries really hard and it put, you know, he puts in a lot of effort because he knows that that means a lot to me. And that is almost more romantic to me than if he was just like he was you know constantly writing romantic letters to every girl he's ever dated right totally and you have these little like nuggets of gold that you know

are just for you and just between the two of you and something special that's come out of communication between the two of you so yeah I totally agree and I think if in that moment when you're feeling upset and he says, yes, I'll text you. If you want a hug, just say to him, you know, I can really use a hug right now. If you want him to come sit closer to you and like, you know, do the validation thing, like you might need to say to him, I just need you to tell me like you understand that it must have been hard to be lonely today. Like I think that's some of what you need. So he sounds like he's really trying to do what you're asking. I think you need to just ask for it. If what you want in that moment is some physical affection or him to lean in before you start

crying and getting even more mad, then let him know that. Because him not, I'm sure he would be more than happy to just give you a hug in that moment and say, I'm sorry, you were lonely. Like, I'm sure he would be thrilled to do that if he knew that that was going to make it better. Yeah. And also because, like, when you say stuff like, you don't care about me or like you're not a good boyfriend or like, you know, you're not invested in this. Then the person, or at least in my, in my case, he would always be like,

what are you talking about? And then he would like list all the things that in his mind he does to like support the relationship and support me and to make me feel loved. And then I'm like, and then Ned becomes like, I don't think that's helpful either because then it's like, oh, like are we we going tit for chat on these examples of you know, on what you think is... Who's doing more? And then it just ends up...

Yeah, totally. Which isn't helpful, I think, as a way to argue. But I think when you do that, because in their mind, when someone's being attacked, their immediate responses usually to defend themselves. But that's not really where you want to go. So I think if you lean in with more like, this is how I'm feeling, this is about me, not about this is what you're doing wrong. it leads to a much more productive thing where people want to and again this is the main thing with it

I think is like getting the person to lean into you rather than lean away from you and if you lead with like your own feelings of like soft sadness which was not my instinct at all I'm even saying it even just saying it now makes me uncomfortable no it's funny I remember my therapist being like being like yeah if you like scream at someone like you're the instinct is for them to like want to get away from you but if you said like oh like i was just like sitting here so sad and lonely today like just like it in here i just felt so sad sitting in like there you almost don't even like they they they'll want to like comfort you because they're not it's not about you're not making it feel like it's about them totally yep i i agree with that and i think that he's going to respond much better it

sounds like the crying, you wait for the crying part until it's like now I'm crying because I'm frustrated and angry that you're not, you know, leaning in. So again, and not to sound like a broken record, but I think the actionable step here is to pause and calm yourself and spend a little bit of time alone before reaching out to him, before communicating to him, reminding yourself of all the ways that he loves you, reminding yourself of all the reasons why your relationship is stable and affectionate and caring and calm your body. Because there is some trauma here that I think has probably is what's leading to this

anxious attachment. We don't have any information on childhood stuff, but at the very least, they did break up for a while. So I think that if she can kind of rewire her mind, body connection around this idea that him showing any distance is going to lead to them breaking up, which sounds like the ultimate fear. So I would just set a timer on your phone when you're feeling like this, remind yourself of all the ways that you're connected, calm your body,

take some deep breaths, and then come and have the conversation. And I also wouldn't have it while he's at work. I wouldn't be texting him paragraphs at work about how upset you are, wait until he comes home, be calm, give him a hug, reconnect physically, and then see if you can approach it more softly. That's a great practical solution. And I also think the more you get it, the less you'll need it. Yes. And this is sort of that self-fulfilling prophecy because he's like, he's, you know, he's not giving

it. She's not feeling it. So she's getting more angry. He's pulling back more. And once you inject it in a positive direction, I think it'll start to come back around. And as someone, again, just speaking from experience, if this helps the listener, like, I used to be like that too and very overly analytical and very anxiously attached. And I do think as you see that someone is there and this is just like their way, it's not like personally everything.

I feel like when you're anxious, everything feels so personal. Like they don't, they're doing this because they're going to break up with me or they're doing this because instead of like, this is just the way that they are and it becomes less personal and it becomes so much less heated and like almost like the less you demand it the more you get it too right right totally it's true because nobody likes to feel they're giving someone something or else they're going to you know i think a lot of typically men end up feeling like if i don't like this thing if i don't answer in the exact way that you want me to answer, it's not going to go well. Like almost like, just tell me what to say and I'll say it.

Kind of thing. You know, like nobody likes to feel like they're being squeezed into a, you know, a conversation that doesn't feel like that's how they want to react. But I do think if you come at it with softness, it's going to come more naturally for him instead of him being like, if I don't exactly say I understand what it feels like to be lonely, I'm sorry that you felt that way. I too feel lonely sometimes. I'm laughing because I've had that exact argument with Mike where he like did something that I thought was wrong.

And then he like apologized in a way that I didn't like. And I was like, no. Mike apology, take two. I was like, actually, this would have been a better response. He's like, well, that wasn't, I guess, do you want to apologize to yourself? Right, right. Totally. So nobody likes to feel like they're in.

that situation. And I think all these conversations are going to go well when you can calm yourself first. So that's a big part of the anxious attachment thing is just, you know, being able to find that calm body and then be able to communicate what you actually want. So, well, good luck. Good luck. All right. Well, do you want to read our betchesist for the week? Yeah. Yeah, let me read that one. Okay. Is it rude to ignore a past situation ship's DMs? Some backstory. I went on a couple of dates with this guy and after the second date I was having second thoughts about our connection and the speed at which the situation ship was going, if you could even call it that at this point. I vocalized this to him and he agreed to pull back and take it slow. Ultimately, I determined that we were in a match and

let him know it wasn't going to work. He appreciated my honesty and told me to let him know if my feelings were to change in the future, they wouldn't, cut to months later and he continues to react and respond to my stories on Instagram. Every time I go through this internal back and forth thinking, should I respond to be nice, but if I do, it will give him false hope. I haven't responded, but I can't help but feel like an asshole while also being annoyed that he keeps putting me in a position where I have to reject him. Sincerely, not a mean girl.

That's funny where she's like, I have to reject you over and over again. This is terrible for me. I thought this was an interesting one because I thought, I mean, it's good. It's an interesting one for this scenario, but also just generally if people are like DMing you or responding to your DMs. I always wonder what the, what do you owe anyone? Right. What's your responsibility to respond? It's so, I mean, to your, to the point of our initial conversation about giving your kids phone, it's so easy to contact someone now.

Right. you can contact them so casually and so easily. And I think it becomes like stressful to have to answer or feel like you have to answer. I sometimes feel this way about like the family chat. We're our sibling chat where I'm like, do I need to like, do I need to go like this picture? Do I need to go respond to this comment? Like I'm not really like, sometimes I'm like, I don't really want to be engaging constantly. And is it rude to not?

And with this scenario in particular, I think that's also a good question. What do you think is the moral obligation when sent a DM or a text or anything? Right. Well, I think in this particular situation, she's ended it. She told him it wasn't going to work out. I don't think she needs to respond to him anymore. If she never, like, really had a communication with him where she said, I don't think we have a connection, you know, he's the one that went back and said, if my feelings were to change, I would let him know that I should let him know. And they haven't. So she's

not. Right. He's trying to like basically, I think, keep himself in her head so that if she does change, she can be like, oh, there he is. Like I remember if he can find you at just the right lonely moment. Yes, lonely moment. He's trying to sneak in. I agree. I don't think she needs to respond to him anymore. If he wants to continue to, you know, I don't know what exactly. what type of communication. If he's actually writing to her or he's just, you know, liking things. But it sounds like he's like responding to her stories or.

Right. Writing various things. And I do, like, I agree. If she has no desire, it sounds like she has no desire to maintain any sort of connection or relationship. This is why it's also annoying when people follow each other on like Instagram when they're not an established thing. Right.

Because then it's like, right. Because normally in the world 20 years ago, if you went on two days, dates with someone and you didn't go on a third, you just never saw them ever again. Literally never saw their face again ever. Right. And I think that's the more natural route. Like, we don't need to be constantly in contact with someone we went on two dates with three years ago. Totally. So yeah, I agree. So, but you bring up an interesting point about like a group chat or a family chat or, you know, what are the ethical obligations to responding? if somebody sends, like if I send you a picture of, you know, the kids and I catch you at a time,

it's like not a convenient time for you to come up with a response. You know, personally, and this is just me, there's so many people on the chat that I don't notice who's responding. As long as someone responds. Like if there was crickets, I'd probably be a little bit hurt. That's always the saddest thing in a group chat, especially like for me and my friends, if someone's like, hey, is anyone around tonight? Like, I would want to get dinner.

And then you look back two days later. You're like, oh, my God, nobody ever responded to that. Because everyone's like, oh, someone who wants to go will respond. I don't really want to go. Right. But then the person feels like shit. So. Right.

Totally. So maybe there's a moral obligation in the sense of like just if it's a friend or a family member and like nobody's and you notice it's almost like if, you know, an old lady falls in the street and you see somebody else go over and help her up, then you're like, okay, somebody's helping. I don't need to run over there. But if she's laying there and nobody's helping, maybe you do have an obligation to respond. So I think, I guess that would be my perspective on it, that like, you know, if it's someone

that you care about and you notice that they've sent a message and, you know, nobody's responding, then that might be a good time to jump in and say, okay, how cute or sounds awesome or I can't tonight or whatever. Well, I also have that, I mean, that dilemma too, just because I'm, you know, semi-public figure. So I have a, sometimes a good amount of people in my DMs who I don't really know who are often either saying something in response to a podcast, even this show, or just something generally in response to what I'm doing. And I'm kind of, and part of me is like, oh, that's nice. I should like engage and I should respond and like that's nice. But sometimes you're kind of like, I don't like, every response is like a mental.

energy of and to bring it back to our last email it's like but i guess then you're if you're looking at it if you read it maybe you should acknowledge it like is it and then i'm like is it rude to just double tap and like the message does it need a fully formed response like what's the line between being like rude and being like just a normal person with their own daily life who doesn't how sad have all these people sending you uh no it's i mean i don't mean to sound cocky. And I see what you're saying.

It's like a nice problem to have that people care and people want to engage. And I think it's very nice. And I think that's very nice about like our sibling group chat that people are sending things. But I'm always, but there's a lot of communication. As I said, like there's a lot of communication just everywhere.

And if you don't want to be the person who's sitting with your whole family in a around the couch all on your phones, like there is a limited amount of time in the day. Yeah. So I think that it's a. that's almost maybe leads us to a larger internet question of like how plugged in should one be? Totally. I know. I agree. And I think maybe one solution is. And this is one of the things I told my kids just yesterday. Because, you know, Lila's so cute. She's very conscientious. And her grandma was texting her when she got this new phone. And I told her to go take a shower. And she's like, well, you know, Bubby's texting me. And I said, I'm going to tell you this right now.

unless it's me or daddy, you don't have to answer anybody. Unless it's me. Yes. Yes. Unless it's me or dad, you don't have to answer anybody. I mean, eventually answer them, but you don't have to answer them like in the moment that they text you. If I text you or daddy text you, yes, I want you to answer immediately.

Other than that, answer when you can. So for you, for example, if you get all these messages, I don't think that you need to necessarily answer them that second. But let's say you're at an airport and you're bored. Instead of going on Instagram, maybe you go, you know, and like scrolling, maybe you go through and you answer some of these messages that were from a week ago or from four days ago

or when you have time and you're carving out some time where you're not engaging with other people and it's not going to be like a stressful thing where you're sort of getting to it when you get to it. So that's the part about, cell phones and instant access to all of these types of communication that I think are difficult is this need that that's going to take priority over whatever I'm doing in my actual life in that moment versus saying, okay, it can sit there. I can maybe somehow have a system in my mind of how

I keep track of needing to look over this stuff and get back to it when I get back to it. But when you're bored and you're not around anybody and you're doing nothing, instead of doing other stuff that might be unhealthy for you, like just randomly, you know, looking at TikTok for two hours. You can go back and answer some of these messages that people have set you, where they're sending you like, I'm assuming, like, kindness and love and positive, you know, feedback on what you're doing. That's probably a better way to spend your time than some mindless scrolling that I'm sure you're going to have time for at some point. Or I would tell Lila, like, you know, instead of watching Bell,

and the Bulldogs reruns for the fifth time is some show that they like to watch. Instead of watching that episode again that you saw four times already, why don't you go check your phone and get back to some people who texted you yesterday that you didn't have a chance to respond to? That's a good lesson how to prioritize these things.

I'm going to try that. Yeah, it doesn't need to, just because they, and even I told her this about her own grandmother, which I want her to have respect for her grandmother and I want her to, you know, get back to her, but she doesn't need to be stressing out that her phone is buzzing when she needs to take a shower and get to bed or do whatever it is that she needs to do. Like, whatever that is, if it's an emergency, they'll find another way to get in touch with you.

That's a great lesson in boundaries. So always respond to your boss. I'm the boss. In this case, you're the boss. Or like, if you wouldn't be like, oh, like, I'll get back to my, Like if you're working, you wouldn't be like, I'll get back to my boss when I like have a moment. And like there are certain things or certain times or certain people that are that need preference. But generally speaking, I think that's a good way to do it. I'm going to take that with me into the new year. Because for me, it's like I do have this sense of and this was a really good, I think, entryway into our intention segment of like, is everyone mad at me that I'm not. Like is everyone noticing that I'm not answering immediately?

What are they? How are they internalizing that thought? Is everyone talking about how rude I am? Are they going to tell everyone else that I'm rude? Totally. So I think this is a really good segue into our intention segment. So if you've dealt with this issue, which I think is super relatable, you're probably going to enjoy our next intentions letter.

I'll read it. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I'm such a huge fan. and I could go on for paragraphs about how much oversharing in you up have helped me. Please keep up the awesome work and thank you for helping others like me. I'm looking for help in setting an intention. A couple of the intentions have really resonated with me. The thing I really struggle with and that I have gone to therapy for is people pleasing.

I am a child of divorced parents and often played a middleman role between them, really chaotic childhood. I was also bullied by my best friends when I was in middle school. My therapist and I have gotten to the conclusion that these two things have had a dramatic effect on me and have made me feel like I need to fix things all the time and that they are likely why I'm so nervous about people being upset with me. I've gone to therapy on an offer a couple of years to work on anxiety. I'm so happy and proud of the progress that I've made, but for some reason I can't kick the habit of feeling like no one likes me. If I'm honest,

I constantly feel like no one likes me. I used to have thoughts like this all the time about if my friends secretly didn't like me and I still do time to time. I often think my boyfriend secretly doesn't like me, even though he willingly spends almost every day with me and we're basically live together. I'm a teacher and I often worry my students hate me after I have to be stern with them, even though most of them seem to be pretty happy in my class and progressing well. After interactions with friends or coworkers, I usually feel like I was really weird around them and that they probably don't like me anymore. When I say no to things, I immediately feel guilty and feel like the other person is disappointed in me. Nine out of ten times, I have zero proof to indicate

someone is ever actually upset with me or something I said. I would really like to set an intention in my day because this is so frustrating and exhausting. I have the perfect job, the perfect friends, a perfect boyfriend, and I am so happy with where I am at. It would be great if I could stop feeling like no one likes me or that people are upset with me. Thank you in advance yours truly, an unlikable betch. Yeah, this is a good one. I think, you know, she's in therapy and she's identified a couple of these past traumas. that, again, are probably still lingering for her.

You know, being bullied, I know there's like a, you know, in the more recent years, there's a real push towards preventing bullying. And I think it is a huge deal. And a lot of people, even as adults, are still suffering from the effects of bullying, whether it's in elementary school, middle school, high school. So I think that voice, because when, when you're in that world in middle school, school and you're alone without your parents all day trying to function, trying to, you know, study. And there's these, you know, her best friends that turned on her and bullied her.

There's a real, that's very traumatic emotionally. The feeling of being on the outside, being alone. I think it triggers that, you know, do you ever see in those documentaries about the, I think they're like racist monkeys or there's some kind of monkeys that have this intense. hierarchy in their, like in their family and the tribe. And the monkeys that are on the outside are sometimes like either they're pushed out to like go live on their own somewhere else, find their own food, or they're even sometimes killed. So I think I'll send it to you. They did a documentary. And I think there is, humans have that in them, not that they're going to necessarily kill somebody, but needing to be accepted, not just accepted, but in this

case bullied and pushed out and by your best friends is really super traumatic. So I think that that probably became part of her sense of self is being very sensitive to having that never happen again. Right. And also like you would lack a feeling of like safety because she said I was bullied by my friends, which is almost like a different kind of situation being bullied by like random people on the playground or something. Like these are your friends. So you're kind of like, I don't, There's really no way to know if anyone likes me. Yes. These are my friends and they're being mean to me.

And maybe it's me. That does happen. Yes, that does happen a lot in middle school where the worst bullying comes from like, there are these groups of girls that are really tight. They're all best friends. And all of a sudden, there's one that's on the outside. Right. That's like, and everyone's jumping on the bandwagon and everyone's being mean to them.

And these are people that you were friends with. And then the next year, six months later, three months later, there's another one that's on the outside. So yeah, it does create this feeling of I can never let my guard down. Because these were people that I was like hanging out with and we were all cool. And all of a sudden one girl said that I looked at her crushed the wrong way and now everyone hates me. Everyone hates me. Right.

So it's like there maybe was one incident where she did one thing that some, you know, girl with a little bit of power decided she didn't. like and now she's probably in one of the worst states of mind that she's ever been in at the age of 13 or whatever it is. So she probably did have one experience where her, you know, she felt like she wasn't hypervigilant enough and it turned out really bad for her. So now she's extremely hypervigilant in order to prevent that from happening again. And she has divorced parents. Yes. So then there's that other one where she's, she's probably, you know, had to be on edge for a long time not to upset one parent or upset the other parent and, you know, really watching what she's saying and having to be very

finely in tune with other people's emotional reactions. So her sort of that fight or flight part of her that is designed to protect us from actual physical danger for her is very heightened just in terms of social danger. Right. Very strong survival method, which is helpful to an extent, especially if you're in that, if you're in that environment, then like, yeah, if you're like parents are like freaking out about what the other one does constantly, then it is helpful to be like on guard for what you're saying particularly. But if you're not in that environment anymore, I could see why that wouldn't be like serving you anymore, that's survival technique. Right. So I think part of an intention that might work for her is something that's going to separate her childhood self from her. adult self and what was very threatening in your childhood and even whether it's with friends socially or especially with parents who are like putting food on the table and providing you shelter and

you know providing all of your you know emotional needs in that moment yes that you really are very attached to what goes on with those people and how they're treating you but now that she has a perfect job perfect friends perfect boyfriend she no longer needs to be so hypervigilant about how all these people are reacting to her. So creating that separation between her childhood self and her present day self, I think, would be helpful. So is there an intention line that we're repeating? Yeah. Yeah. I can. So, well, one of the things that I just find helpful, and this isn't exactly like an intention line, like you're saying, that she can repeat to herself. But sometimes I find it.

helpful to almost create a visualization for those who've been bullied in some way or have a person in their life that has negatively affected their sense of self to create an image of that person or a name for that person. So whoever the meanest girl that was, you know, the leader of the pack that was being mean to you in middle school almost to name her. And when that voice comes up, That internal voice comes up of, oh, you know, Katie, you know, Katie's here again, like to kind of just say that to yourself, oh, Katie's here again, like your biggest critic or something. Yes. Like, it's not me.

It's mean Katie. Oh, here's mean Katie. And so you can separate. Like, this isn't really me who cares about if someone hates me after I said something or if I sounded weird after I made a comment. like to create that separation that this isn't your voice this is mean katie and that might be easier to like push it off to the side right because you're associating it with someone that you know is like irrational and someone who who you're looking back you're like oh that person wasn't like good

right and it's not it's not she's not good she's not nice and she's not me right so it's almost like you can internalize you know you always feel like you internalize someone's voice that's what that is like all of a sudden, this other voice that you've heard now, it kind of gets muddled with your own voice of your own sense of self. So that's not exactly an intention, but it is a mental exercise that she can do to separate herself. I mean, I've worked with people on this with eating disorders, for example, you know, like, you know, when you look in the mirror and you focus on the area of your body that you don't like or you feel like you're being mean to yourself about eating something, you shouldn't have eaten that, you know, we'll talk about that that's like your ed voice.

An ed, like eating disorder. That's like your ed voice. Like that's not you. That's this like infectious negative like internalized voice that's creeping its way into your psyche. Maybe it's like the person in your life who always was telling you that stuff that you can do. Totally. Some people would use my ed voice or some people would, you know, just say that was whoever it was. your mom or your dad or that's my dad's voice or you know just to be able to separate it out so you know

like this not only is this not me but this is someone that's like mean to me so I I can easily reject right those thoughts that's a great way to like separate the two things in your mind because it can see because it can feel like there's because you're constantly thinking and there's always stuff going on in your head that it's hard to be like I think it's if you name it it is a lot easier to be like categorizing things. And it's easier to not think of like to change your thought pattern. Totally. It's very hard.

Like it's funny because, you know, we're, we all seem to think we're pretty rational. And kind of most of the thoughts that come into our head, it seemed reasonable. So it is sometimes hard to literally like just reject the thought. Yeah. When it's when you're the one creating it. Because there is a part of your head that's like even if it's sort of irrational, you're like, well, this could be like, it's not like without total merit. Right.

There is an element of truth in that. Like, you know what I mean? Even if it's, maybe if you don't believe like the meanest possible version of it, but you're still like. Right. But yeah, maybe I could lose five pounds. Or like, do you know what I mean? Right. Or like there's like a, it's hard to be like completely rejecting the thing if you feel like,

even if in the you voice, like you're kind of like, even in my me voice, like maybe there's still an element of truth somewhere in there. Right. Yeah, and I think that part of it, the visualization that sometimes is, like, as I'm describing it to you, I'm almost picturing it as like a little like munchkin, like a little, even like a mean elf that sits on your shoulder, that like you're so much more powerful than this tiny little squeaky elf that's like on your shoulder right near your ear, squeaking really mean things in your ear where you can just kind of flick it off, you know, like flicking mean Katie off your shoulder. or whatever feels like there's a visualization that you can do. And I think that's whatever that voice is for her is what's keeping her so hypervigilant about what people are thinking of her. But I do have a few actual intentions that I wrote for her.

You can tell me which one. Let's hear it. And I think one of the cheesiest things that I do, and I'm not a particularly cheesy person. I'd love to hear some cheesy things you do. Is if I have a friend who's like vocalizing those like negative things, about themselves like, ugh, I look terrible or like whatever, like, I don't know, something like that or I'm, you know, everyone hates me or something. I'd be like, and again, I feel really cheesy even saying this out loud, but like I'll be like, don't talk about my friend like that. Yes.

Because it kind of makes it feel like someone else is saying it to them. And I'm like, would you ever, like, you wouldn't say that to someone else. Like don't like, don't talk about my friend like that. Totally. You've said that to a friend. I've said that to a, to a, to a, to a, to a, a friend and it's felt a little cheesy when I've said it but it actually just feels very accurate it's totally it's like stop saying mean things about my friend yeah and if though it's them saying it about themselves it's like you wouldn't let someone else say that to them yes and they wouldn't you know they wouldn't let someone else say that like they wouldn't say that to somebody else so it's kind of like you allow yourself to be so much more mean to yourself than you would ever be to another person

right which is just so ironic really Really, you know. I know. Well, let's hear the intentions for this person now that I have a shame overdose for being sappy. No, but I do really like that. Okay, so one that I wrote is intend to believe that others' negative opinions of me are no longer a threat.

So the idea that in the past, those negative opinions were a threat because you were like ousted to the other side of the lunchroom in middle school. and now they're not. So others' negative opinions of me are no longer a threat. Another one that I wrote is, when I'm triggered, I intend to return to my own sense of self. So noticing that trigger in her body, when she feels like she's getting worked up, that she did something that she feels badly about, I intend to return to my own sense of self. And the last one, which might come mostly from her divorce situation, I am not responsive.

for other people's emotions. So if she pisses someone off or she disappoints someone or they get their, her students don't like her because she was stern with them to remind herself that she's not responsible for other people's emotions. That's a good one. So if any of those are helpful, but I think, you know, and we taught, we had another similar one that was kind of along the lines a few weeks ago, if I intend to return to my own sense of self.

You know who you are. You have a, you have great friends, you have a good job, you have people that like you, you know, you do not need to rely on random, you know, characters in your life to determine who you are. And I think your visualization or your naming of your aggressor thing is probably helpful for like distinguishing just who that self is. Mm-hmm. And who it is not. Yes.

Probably more importantly. Totally. Should we end with some triggered scenarios? Yeah, let's do a couple triggers. Okay, I'll read this first one. Okay. My partner and I have been together four years and recently bought a house. My parents originally said they were gifting me some money from my end of the deposit

as my partner was putting in more than me. Then my partner receives a small, unexpected share of money from another property. And when my parents found out about this, they withdrew their gift to me. The share that he received was roughly the same size as the gift for my parents. It made me feel like my parents were taking advantage of my partner and not understanding how lucky I was to have the opportunity to buy a house. I live in New Zealand, and it's impossible to get into the property market here. I was so triggered that my parents withdrew their gift because I thought they would at least

contribute to the deposit as a type of thank you to my partner for getting me on the property letter. Is it shady that my parents withdrew the money? How triggered can I be? This is an interesting one. Yeah. My initial gut reaction was like that I thought it was weird that she felt like her parents owed her spouse something instead of like her. Right. Or she's like it made me feel like my parents were taking advantage of my partner and not understanding I was how lucky I was to have the opportunity to buy the house. Like to me this reads like a little juvenile. It's like, if you're an adult why do you're I would understand this need to give him a thank you instead right right like if we if she was like 10 and it's like her friend's parents brought her to

a brought her skiing or out to eat and they didn't feel like thankful for the get like I would understand that but this is kind of like it felt like it was a weird shift of responsibility right I could see that perspective but it's almost like well it sounds like they were were planning on giving her a start in that way. Right. And so he was really saving them from having to be the ones to give her the start because he was the ones, he was the one to give her the start in the housing market kind of thing.

But I get what you're saying. And that's an interesting thing that I think happens a lot. Like how much do your parents really owe you in terms of giving you like a start, whether it's like a wedding or down payment on a house or a college education or. or how much, I mean, she probably just shouldn't have mentioned anything about the small unexpected share of money. Right. Should have just kept it quiet.

Well, yeah, I don't know. I find it, I find it interesting because it's like, I guess for this, you'd have to look at like, what are the, what are the motivations for the parent? The motivations for the parent are probably that she is like, okay and settled, right? and to them they probably saw him getting this extra amount of money as like okay she's going to be settled so we don't really need to like intervene here whereas we would have before if she need if we needed to bridge the gap but we don't really need to bridge the gap right i don't think it's quite i can understand being like annoyed that like they're not doing it but i don't know that they've done anything inherently wrong maybe they they could have phrased it better i don't know what do you think yeah i'm torn on this too. I do see both sides of this. It's kind of like if you had it and you were wanting to give it to us, you should have just given it to us. But I also feel like she's not necessarily entitled to this money and therefore being angry about not getting it gives off an air of entitlement.

Right. Would you say anything? And if so, how would you say it? I think she could say to the parents. I mean, what I would do first is talk to the boyfriend about it, right? and see what he actually feels. If he's kind of like, yeah, I got this money, we don't really need it. Like it's all good, you know? Like, let your parents keep their money. They need it more than we do or what, you know,

that would be ideal. That sounds like a fantasy. I doubt he's gonna say that. But I would talk to the partner first and see how he feels about it. I think it's a great conversation for the two of you to have just to kind of feel out what he thinks. Maybe it's an insecurity for her,

this trigger around her not bringing enough to the table. Yeah. So that's why I would talk to him, to the partner first, he or she, like this is a great opener to starting this new life together and new financial intertwinings. Good way to see how they think about money. And if your partner's totally cool about it, maybe you just let it lie. But it does sound like she feels resentful in what she, you know, that not receiving a start like a, you know, from her parents.

That's tough. I don't know. We don't have a lot of information about how old she is or, you know, what the financial situation is there. So it's hard to say what, you know, if they have billions of dollars and they're not giving it, maybe that's different than if they're scraping together $10,000 to give to her and they really need it, you know. Right. And I think you see this a lot. Maybe with like, maybe it's a sibling comparison thing of like, you know, who's getting, who's getting what or the unfairness or something like that or I think there's a lot of it tied into like fairness with parents and money and that kind of thing because and a lot of it is entitlement but a lot of it is

historical so it's like what have you gotten in the past what do you expect to get in the future it's very tied into that but this with no context it is like you said kind of difficult to say just how triggering it would be so I'm going to give it a five yeah I would give it I would make it, it's tough because they said they would do it and took it back. That's the hard part. Right. Yeah. That's, but that part's kind of annoying to take it back. It's one thing if they were like, oh, like, it seems like you have gotten this thing. Would you, would you be offended if we took it back? Just because like we don't, how they communicated it. Like, if that's like, okay, I guess you don't need our, you don't need the money anymore. Like, that's great. Instead of like, how would you feel if we didn't

give you this now that you can afford it, we would like to put it towards this other thing. But if you still really want, if you still feel like you really would really be helpful for you, we could still do it. So maybe it's in the communication. I agree. I think community. And I'm glad you brought that up. I think communication here is going to be helpful for her not to feel resentful. She may not know a lot about their financial situation and why they felt like they needed to take this back or what was going on with them. So I definitely think she can just be vulnerable and say, I don't know if I have a right to feel this way, but this is how I felt.

You know, and just kind of be really open about her feelings on it and just say, I just wanted to open up a dialogue about it and see where you guys stand in terms of what shifted for you when you said you would give it and then gave it back. And maybe she would have a better understanding of where they're coming from. It's a good ethical dilemma too.

Like imagine you're one of your kids, like you saved money for them to go to college. and then they get a scholarship. And then you're like, I'll take the cash. Does that money go back? Right. Well, that's what I'm saying. Does that money go back to you or do you give it to them anyway?

Right. Totally. It is. I mean, no, that money goes back to me. I mean, but then maybe I would give it to them for like a house or a wedding or. Well, that's the thing. Is it like is it theirs and should it come to them in a different way? Or is that up to you?

Totally. There is a lot. It is interesting. like what a parent's obligation is to their adult children financially, which I guess some people would say nothing, you know? Right. Yeah, technically. I think a lot of that because it's like you've created the dynamic,

I do think the obligation is like to work within that dynamic at least. All right. Well, this was a good one. I do think communication would be great. And if you do, I'd love to hear if there's any explanation on their end. Same. Let's do one more. Okay. Jordan and Dr. Naomi, I love the podcast and have recommended it to anyone who will listen. I have a triggered scenario for the two of you.

For context, I work with young children, particularly children with special needs. I have years of experience and a graduate level degree and spend a good bit of my free time staying up to date on current research. However, there are a subset of people who believe that I have to be a parent in order to truly understand families and their needs. Recently, I asked my supervisor at work for advice on handling a situation with a particularly difficult parent, and she told me that I, I just couldn't relate to the parents since I'm not a parent myself. How triggered can I be? This is particularly sensitive to me as I really want to have children, but I'm always the single friend spending my weekends at weddings and baby showers. What can I do to keep these comments from bothering me so much? It's been over a week since she said that and I still keep thinking about it. It's interesting. I do think this is, I could see why it's triggering, but this is a her thing.

Because look, there are certain things that you cannot literally relate to when you haven't gone through it. You know, like if I work with somebody who's an alcoholic, I've never been an alcoholic. I don't know exactly how they feel. I cannot relate to everything that they're going through. It doesn't mean I can't help them. It doesn't mean that I can't have a general understanding and research and read about it and, you know, learn. about how they might feel and listen to people saying how they feel, but I have never been through that exact situation.

Right. And you would probably feel less triggered by someone being like, well, you don't understand what it's like you're not an alcoholic because that's not something you are aspiring towards security about not being. Right. You're not aspiring alcoholic. So with her, she's probably like, again, taking it a lot more personally because it's about this subject of something she desperately does want to be.

but isn't so it's like here's another reminder that that I'm not this and also also a note that I should feel less I should feel another sense of inadequacy around this thing where I already feel inadequate because I'm going to these baby showers and these weddings every weekend and here's someone else telling me those things so I think if she could separate it from like the aspirational side of it she wouldn't be quite as triggered by it right and I think that that would be the helpful piece is to kind of say that this isn't a dig because you're, you know, there's not, she's not saying you're a bad person because you're not a parent yet. Or there's something wrong with you because you're not a parent yet.

I do think it's touching. It's a perfect triggered scenario because it's like touching on this insecurity. But in and of itself, like I said, if I was working with a patient that said, like, you know, I get what exactly did she say that, that, that, I just couldn't relate. Like if I was working with somebody who was struggling with alcoholism and they said to me, you just can't relate. You've never been in my shoes.

I would say, yeah, you're right. So I think she has to realize that there are certain aspects of this that she can't relate to. I'm not saying it's not triggering because it's triggering her own stuff about wanting to be a parent. So I don't think that the person necessarily did anything wrong because she's just stating some facts about being able to relate. to what it feels like to be a parent. And maybe she could have said it in a kinder way. I don't know how she said it. She didn't really give details on that.

I agree. I don't know how she said it, but I think if she can just understand, okay, this doesn't mean that you're not, like I will still treat people that come to me struggling with alcoholism. Just because I've never been through it, doesn't mean that I can't help them.

Just because, you know, like you said, it kind of probably also triggered some sense of inadequacy that she related, She connected in her mind the idea of like if I can't relate to them, I can't help them. And that's not true. Right. You can still, like you said, you have a graduate degree, you work on this, you read, you learn. Someone who's in a helping profession, you're never going to be able to fully relate to

every single person that comes into your office. There are people that you can relate to more than others, but that doesn't mean that you can't help them. Otherwise, one of the requirements for being in a graduate program would be personal experience. Right. And it's not. Okay. Well, I would still give this one a little high because it sounds like she's just like a little bit on it. I could see it being in this position just feeling kind of triggered by it. I give it a six. I could see that. But I think she has to do all the things that we talk about. Be patient. If this is something you want, you have the power to make it happen, especially as a woman. You know, you'll get there. You'll make this happen. Just be patient. And I'm sure you're great at your job. So continue. focusing on that. Agreed. Well, this was a great episode. Happy New Year to all the oversharing listeners and to you. Happy New Year. 2023 is going to be a good one. I hope everyone takes all the little bits that they get from this podcast. And I do too. These are good reminders for myself and hopefully for

you to just choose your own mindset in 2023. And that will be where you live. Yeah. And go into the new year with the resolution to pause. Oh, love that. I really love that. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Picoe, and Rebecca Souselmaq.

Editing by Basilio Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches. Thank you.