Oversharing - Can A Relationship Survive After Cheating?

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

Before getting into the heavy stuff, Jordana and Naomi begin the episode a convo about meditation. Naomi tells us about the importance of regular practice, while Jordana reflects on the difficulty of keeping it up. Then they dive into a discussion on cheating in relationships, and Naomi shares her thoughts on the age-old adage: “once a cheater, always a cheater.” They talk about reactions to cheating on both sides, and the importance of therapy in dealing with those emotions. This week’s Overshare comes from a listener who recently found out her serious boyfriend has cheated on all of his exes. About to enter a period of long-distance due to work, she questions whether her anxiety about his infidelity is valid, and how she can overcome it. The Betchicist email comes from a listener who is concerned her best friend’s boyfriend may be cheating. Should she bring it up, or let the situation unfold on its own? Finally, this week’s Triggered submissions address an airplane close encounter, nasty comments about an ex post-breakup, and being told you’re “punching above your looks.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Dredana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. Welcome back to us another week.

I get another week where I said I was going to try meditating and I didn't. Not even the nighttime meditation. I think I did a little bit of the sleep stories last week again to falls. I mean, I don't know if you feel this or feel like most people feel this, but all of my anxiety really comes to me as I'm trying to fall asleep. Like I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing during the day and like if I have a problem, I'll like move it to the, you know what I mean? Like I'll stay busy. I'll distract myself. Like I can do most things. But I feel like when I'm lying awake, when I'm trying to go to bed, that's when like all the intrusive thoughts get to me, which is why if I'm doing a meditation, it's the sleep meditation to try to like get rid of those. But I feel like what you're talking about is like a is a little bit more almost like, I feel like my way is like reactive and your way is sort of like a proactive way to like manage your thoughts and mine is like, okay, now they're overwhelming. Let me like do defense. Right. Exactly. Which is better than nothing. But it's almost like you said you can prepare yourself

better if you practice it throughout the day or when you're calm because then what ends up happening is you almost sometimes you can get like a bad association with it if you're like waiting until you're super anxious or your thoughts are racing and then you try it then you're like this isn't working this is stupid that I need to I'm going to turn on the TV or I'm going to pick up my phone and scroll and that's what takes my mind off of my worries and then I can fall asleep and then it kind of makes you lose faith in it because you're trying it when it's you're already in a difficult state of mind which is the idea you have to kind of practice it when you're okay and gain, you know, the skills and focusing your mind where you want it to go and then you can use it when things are a little bit

tougher. But it's not to say that there's anything wrong with that. Let's do it. That's, it's better than nothing, I think. Yeah. No, I see what you're saying. You're sort of like setting yourself up to not like it when you're only using it like defensively because you're already in a a negative mood. It's like saying, like, you don't like confrontation and you only do confrontation when like you're in a heated argument or about something else or something. Totally. And I love the idea of people doing like, you know, associations are so strong. Our brains are wired in that way, like sensorial association. So if you're going to try a meditation when things are calm, like aromatherapy and stuff like that. So you kind of have this association with this aroma and being calm and, you know,

feeling relaxed and then you can bring it in when you're not feeling that way and it kind of triggers that part of your brain that's like, oh, right, I remember this scent. I remember this sound, this audio track, this thing that you can associate with a relaxing time. That really does work. That's a great point. I mean, it's interesting just to give, I guess, a little overview. I like, the last time I did used to do meditation fairly frequently, like a few times a week when I was single and I would be very anxious about like never meeting anyone. I remember. remember like that was like a thing that kept me up at night just the idea that like I would be single forever and I would never meet anyone and it was like I would never do all the things that came along

with finding someone and then I found someone and I kind of stopped meditating because I was like that that was like my big like keep me up at night thought and then this week I had a really bad week I'll probably talk about it at some point not I think at this moment and it was the first time that I felt like I needed it again. And I wish that I had been doing it this whole time. So I would have. I get it. It seems like a lot of effort to put in for, you know, that one moment when you need it. But it really is going to change all of your interactions and just the way that you look at life and just finding more joy instead of focusing. It just changes your focus. You decide where you want your mind to focus. Do I want to focus on the stressors and the unknowns and

the things that I want to try to control? Or do I want to focus on the stuff that I know is here? that's right in front of me, that's also really good. And it makes sense. I mean, like, you wouldn't, the point of, like, for example, like a security system in your house is so you know that it's there if you need it. It's like you can't just get a security system when you're already robbed. Right. It's like not that helpful anymore.

Totally. Or afterwards, it would be like, exactly. Like, it's much more, you know what I mean? It's almost like an insurance policy against those things. And they do come up every now and then. Well, start with sleep and move from there. But even like I think we talked about last week, just doing it on a little small scale each day. Like if you notice just a little bit of upset in your body, you can come back to, I feel my cool

breath coming in my nostrils. I feel my warm breath coming out of my nostrils. That's meditation. Just even one single breath is considered a mindful moment. And you could just do that at any point. So even if you can't find the time to sit and do it, just do that. Just find a moment when you're about to go down that. rabbit hole of negative thinking, catch yourself and just cool air coming in my nostrils,

warm air, leaving my nostrils. And that hopefully can just bring you a little bit back to, am I going to choose to follow that rabbit down the hole? Or am I going to come back and say, I've been down there. There's nothing good down there. I'm not going down there again. You know, no fun. I mean, it's crazy because it's also like I guess the idea like years ago, like 20 years ago, you kind of had to sit with those thoughts or do something. Now it's kind of like you have a phone, right? And the phone can either like feed into the thoughts that you're having by like Googling excessive amounts of things to like either soothe yourself or or just like, again, like distraction through like social media or something like that. And I feel like that also probably

leads to digging in rather than taking yourself out of it. A hundred percent. You're exactly right. And it feels in the moment like you're escaping it or it's like what we talked about last time. you're finding some control by finding a little bit more information. You know, you're going to go online and you could, I catch my mind going there. Well, I'll just have a random thought about, I don't know, whatever it is. Like, what does the cross between a golden retriever and a Chihuahua look like? And I can actually go on and like find out the answer instead of just wondering in my mind. So I might like wake up out of my half sleep, pick up my phone and try to find the answer to that,

which is not going to be helpful, but it's actually out there probably if I wanted to find it. So I think that sense of gaining more information makes us feel more in control. I don't think that's helpful most of the time. What we need to learn is how to tolerate not having information and finding our own calm without seeking it from external sources. And that's the hardest part because there's so many external sources. And there is real information. But I just don't think it makes you feel better most of the things.

time. I agree. I mean, like, because the truth of the matter is very few things are fully in your control. There are some things that are in your control, but most things are just going to happen. And like you said, like, if you could just move your mindset around being able to accept whatever happens, then I think that that probably the best way to serve yourself. Amen. Let's get into, I guess, today's topic, I feel like, so today's topic is really, and we have a few different, we have a couple emails about this is cheating. And I'm sure you worked a lot of patients about and couples, I would assume, on like infidelity or cheating or stuff like that. Like what has been your experience in therapy with people dealing with that? Totally. I do a lot of couples work and a lot of couples only come in

after, you know, there's the straw that breaks the camel's back, which is the cheating event. Because then it's like, I think I'm going to leave, but I may want to stay. And so let's try to figure this out. And one thing that I will tell people out there that I think is, you know, a stigma sometimes is like trying to work on it after somebody's cheated on you. And there's some shame there. And I think, you know, as a therapist, I will put it out there that a lot of people will stay and work on the relationship. So there's no shame in doing so. They just don't publicize it. Right. Yes. You only hear about it when they leave, usually. Yes. Exactly. So if you're going to stay, most people understandably, aren't going to tell everybody in their life that the person's cheated and they've chosen to stay because of this shame, which is, you know, it's too bad because a lot of people do it, especially if you have kids or if you're married and, you know, so I will put it out there that there's no shame in working on it. And I have a lot of thoughts in terms of how to go about it when you do choose to stay. Leaving is a different story. And that's hard in and of itself because then you're kind of dealing with it by yourself instead of dealing with it with your. partner. So when you stay, I encourage the couple, like, within reason, but you always there to talk about it. You always have to be there to support. You always have to be available to have that conversation. But if you leave the relationship, which is fine also, then you have to lean on friends and people whose fault this wasn't. You know, like when you stay, you get to lean on the person who did

this to you and they are. Give them all the toxic energy. Yeah. Yeah. So other than that, you're going to leave. You're going to try to go to your friends, which, you know, hopefully you have a good support. network, but people after a while sometimes get burnt out because it's a really, it's a really, really tough emotion to do. Well, that's also assuming that the person wants to stay with you, right? I mean, sometimes people get cheated on and then left for whoever that person that the other person was with, which is probably the hardest of the scenarios, because then they're not even allowing you the option to work through it with them. Yes, that is the hardest of the options. that situation is really tough.

And I do think a lot of people will use cheating as an escape route, you know, like a cowardly escape route. I think a lot of young men tend to do that, like early 20s, you know, teens, early 20s, even up to mid-20s. And I'm not saying nobody does that when they're older, but most people, I think, have figured out how to break up with someone. But I think a lot of younger people will cheat as a way out. It's kind of like, okay, I'm going to cheat.

If they find out, we'll break up anyway, which I think I may want to. want. And if they don't, then I'll just get to kind of do both of these things and they see it as not necessarily a win-win, but just as a place holder until they're ready to pull the plot. That's an interesting thought on it. And now it's more, it makes them more annoying. Yes. Yes. What do you think of the idea of once a cheater, always a cheater? Do you believe any people to believe that? I know this is not a popular answer, but I think it depends. I think it really depends on how the most important thing is how are they communicating about it. And that would totally agree that.

That will reveal all. If they don't want to talk about it, if they're closed off, if they're shutting down, if they're telling you you're being, you know, calling you names for asking questions or if they're being aggressive in terms of being able to communicate, not a good sign. But if they're open to the conversation, I think that that could mean. a lot. I feel like that's true of that for sure and anything else that someone has that's like a baggage that they bring into a relationship. So even if someone's like, I have debt and I don't want to talk about it or I have like a little bit of a gambling addiction, I don't want to talk

about it. Like any other sort of like thing which maybe causes you to lie or betray someone or you know, I feel like it's much more about how you're how they processed it and how they, you know, how open they are to improving the situation and how committed they are to not doing it again is much more important than like what's been done or hasn't been done. Totally. The truth will set you free. If you can be honest with yourself enough to the point where you can speak freely. And this goes to everything, every cycle. You know, if you, you know, are vulnerable about being anxious and you can talk to your partner about being anxious, if you're vulnerable about having episodes of depression and you can talk to your partner about having episodes,

anything that you can own for yourself, be honest with yourself about it, and then communicate that to another person openly. That's kind of the ticket out in a lot of ways. Yeah, for sure. You have a lot of emails that are like cheating adjacent or have things to do with that. Obviously, like, it's a huge thing for a lot of people getting over it and dealing with it or if you're the one who's done it. Give me a quick overview. What are like a few topics that you get on cheating that you get the emails on gotten he's cheated in the past how do i know he's not going to cheat on me or he admitted he had a one-night stand but he you know it wasn't a relationship and he deeply regrets it or i found out this thing later or i saw a shady benmo payment or do you know what i mean there's

like there's the whole sort of like gamut of it and i think that there's a sense of i think trust obviously is like the major, the cheating itself, I think is almost secondary to the idea of the trust, especially when the person hasn't told you. And I think those are two different things. One when the person like comes clean to you and the other when you've discovered it. Because there is a sense of like, how can I ever trust this person again if like I found, like they didn't tell me. I found this out about them. And like what else aren't they telling me? And how will I ever feel sure that this person hasn't told me again? I've also seen ones where it's like they told me and I wish they didn't tell me because now now I know and I almost like again it's

like less about the act and more about like that now it's just like the constant fear that it's happening someone's I think I've seen it's raised the question of like is it almost more selfish to tell you because now they're absolved of the guilt and it's all on you to like process you know what I right yeah although I really feel and this is a PSA for anyone who's listening who might be cheating with cheating on someone that they actually care and want to maintain a relationship with come clean because like exactly what you said one if the person has to be an investigator they're going to put that investigator hat on and it's going to be really hard to switch that off so if you can come clean first it gives a lot in terms of the trust for moving forward because it

sort of shows like I knew you weren't going to like this I told you anyway and it gives you some confidence in their moral code. Like they didn't have to do that. So I think that's a very good first step in trust building is the initial disclosure, not to say that shit's not going to hit the fan for months and months and months after that. It's not, I'm not saying that's going to be great or it's going to be fun. You're immediately going to be absolved of all. Right.

Well, I told you. Yeah. No. So it's not going to be that. But long term, if this is someone that you think you want to be with long term, long term, it's going to be better because they're going to it's the first step and that's the important part of you know in recovering from an affair is like just the honesty at the beginning which is the only show of my actions are I'm going to speak through my actions and my actions are going to show

that I'm starting today and I'm going to be honest starting this moment so you can mark the day you know June 17th was the day that I all the words out of my mouth were true from that day forward. And if that can be true, that's a great way to rebuild trust. It's like when you see in like AA or something like, I'm an alcohol, like the dipper's the day you're like, my name is whatever and I'm an alcoholic. It's like that's the day that you're starting. Yep. Right. You're coming. You're owning it. I don't have much personal experience with cheating. Only really the stuff I've heard from our mother growing up that's been like beaten to my head. about cheaters and how terrible they are and all that.

But to my knowledge, I haven't been cheated on. So I don't, I personally don't feel like super connected to tales of like infidelity. But Esther Perrell, I did read her book, which I thought was really, really interesting. It's called The State of Affairs. And it's all about cheating and like all the couples that she's worked with and like the different reasons people cheat and the different like reactions that you can have to cheating. And I thought it was even if you're dating. someone who's who's been cheated on in the past or if you any you know what I mean like you know someone who's been cheated on I think it's a really interesting topic just to see where they're coming

from and you know how that could affect the way that they think about relationships after that. Totally. You know there is obviously everyone has their different experience but for someone who's going through it it was really helpful to read something like that to normalize your feelings. Like when you feel like a raging lunatic because you're just constantly asking. questions and you're every time you see the person, it's like there's like the hot white light on their face and the, you know, questions coming for hours and hours. Yes. So, you know, it normalizes that to kind of be like, okay, that, you know, so on top of being cheated on, you don't have to feel like now you're turning into a crazy person and there's something like

abnormal about you. So, you know, books like that, I haven't read that one, but, you know, or even listening to something like this where you can get some reassurance that your reactions are normal. And then for the person, for the other person to get some reassurances that your feelings are kind of normal in the sense of like, I can't take this anymore. Like, I feel like I, you know, I can't take the questioning. I can't take the arguing. I can't take the yelling. I can't take the screaming where it's like, okay, this is just part of the process. If you can read a book like that or listen to something and say this is phase two. Totally. It's because the other person might be like, I can't keep paying for the same crime over and over and over again. And the other,

I can see both sides of like the other person can just like be forced to let it go. And the other person I can understand being like, well, I can't. There has to be a point we're like, move on. Either we're not going to move. Because the cheater, obviously they did this thing and we can get into the details of all that. But they're working and they're trying. You know, in a lot of cases, if they're coming to therapy, they're trying really hard. And they're taking a lot of verbal aggression.

And sometimes even like throwing. thing, you know, stuff that, right, a lot of aggression. They're taking a lot of aggression. And if they get a most of the time, there's like a kind of a clockwork path where they get to a point at like a month in or even two weeks in sometimes, two weeks to a month in where they're like, this isn't helping. Like, I'm taking all of this. You're still really angry. This doesn't look like it's helping. I can't live like this for the rest of my life. And then when they come into me, I help them kind of work through that. But that's a very common reaction. too. Yeah. I mean, it feels like the kind of thing where if you decide you do want to stay together,

like you kind of like need therapy. Like I can't imagine. I guess you could pretend. The only way I've seen it where people work it out on their own is if they just decide to bury it. Like one person's just like, all right, we're let's just, we're never going to talk about it again. We're going to pretend it never happens. And you see that on last season of Real Housewives of New Jersey. How does that work out? I'm interested to see what happens like a year down the road from that if they're still on the show. Well, it was like a thing that happened 10 years ago, actually. And then like they're from like sort of like a traditional Turkish family.

And so like it was almost seen as like the woman's fault if her, if her husband. Couldn't keep your man. Right. Was cheating or something like that. And he was like cheating on her when she was pregnant. And then she, this is what she's saying now is that like whatever. She found it out. And then they just decided like she decided because she was like about to have this baby and

they already had all these kids. She was just going to, like, sweep it. He said he wasn't going to do it again. They kind of like swept it under the rug. And then it comes out like, now, which is like 10 years later. And all the anger that she had because it's been, it was revealed by like a different cast member. And now she's sort of like becoming, getting the anger that she like put away. Right.

Right. Coming out then. So I think it does, it does all of it. It all eventually comes out. But I do think if it's the kind of thing where you were going to stay together, I would imagine the help of the third party is extremely helpful. For sure, because you have to push against your grain. And that's sometimes what therapy is.

It forces you to do not your natural inclination. And if the therapist recommends X, Y, or Z, you're going to be forced to talk about it when you don't want to. Or you're going to be forced to be empathic when you're not feeling empathic or, you know, whatever those things are that you, if left to your own devices and everyone just does whatever they feel like, you're going to end up back in the same situation. because that's what got you here in the first place, doing whatever you felt like, got you to this spot. And I imagine being the person being cheated on. If like you would have excessive conflicting emotions of like one day, I'm like, okay, I'm going to make this work and it wasn't a big deal.

And then in the other head, it's set of your mind like, am I this like loser pathetic person that's just like taking what I'm just taking it and I'm not like there's no, you know what I mean? Like do you feel the need to punish almost for your own self-esteem because you're probably like, well, if I don't, if I just forgive, then like, what does that say about me that anyone can do this to me? That there's no punish, you know what I mean? That's a huge part of it. That's a huge part of it is like the shame and self-doubt on the person who's been betrayed in terms of how they move forward and handle it.

And that's really hard because then you're dealing with that on top of, you know, all the other emotions that are going up. so much that goes into it. Let's read the email and we can take it from there. But there's, I mean, we're probably just scratching the surface of all the things that you can even get into. So much. I have so much. So if there's any questions about this, I do love to really help people get through these types of things because there are ways through. You just have to go through.

Right. You just need to do the work. And honestly, I tell couples a lot of times and some, you know, a lot of times the betrayed partner doesn't like to hear this in the beginning. But a lot of times, if you do this the right way, your relationship can come out even stronger than what it was. So I tell people, the goal is not to get back to where you were, because where you were, obviously, there was a problem there. The goal is to get to a better place than where you were. And sometimes having these conversations deepens the connection to the point where you're in a better relationship than you had. And it's unfortunate that it takes an

affair sometimes to get people to do it, to try to connect, to go to therapy together, which is my other PSA, which is like, go to therapy before the affair. And we can talk about that another time, like what are some of the signs and symptoms that there might be something brewing, mainly disconnection of some nature, but do it before because a lot of times this is what ends up happening when people are living too long in a relationship where they're not connecting emotionally. Right. It becomes like the symptom instead of. Yes, exactly for what's really going on. All right, well, I'll read the email. Let's do the email. Hi, Jordan and Dr. Bernstein love the new podcast. Each time after listening, I keep thinking of my own interpersonal dynamics that I would love to hear your take on. Lately, I have been struggling with the concept of if people can change their moral foundation over time or if previous mistakes are most likely to repeat themselves. For context, I've been with my boyfriend for about two years and genuinely feel very happy and loved by him. We We talk about a future together frequently and he has done a lot to reassure me that I am the one for him. However, I am acutely aware of the fact that he has cheated on every single one of his exes.

I found out about this pretty late into our relationship and would have said it was a deal breaker, but he has always made me feel very safe and loved in this relationship. We recently just had to start long distance because of our jobs. My mind has been going crazy with the fear that he will cheat on me now or is bound to cheat on me eventually if we do end up getting married. He has tried to calm these fears. by telling me he is a new man and that those previous behaviors were just a product of his college buck boy phase. That's kind of what you were referring to a little bit before. But he does not stand by those values and wants to be a better man for me now.

I always hear the phrase past behaviors are the best indicators of future behaviors and want to hear if you agree with that sentiment or if people really can change once they find the one they want to settle down with. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. My gut is really nagging me about this. Would appreciate any thoughts on the matter. sincerely reformed fuck boy's girlfriend. All right. Yeah, I think a lot of people probably go through this, even if not in a relationship, like in an early dating stage where they find out that somebody has cheated like,

oh, how did your last relationship end? If somebody actually tells the truth about that, which is funny because somebody might tell the truth and you'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm not going on another date. This guy cheated on his last girlfriend. But what's worse is if he didn't tell you the truth. Right. Which sounds like this guy kind of did because she said she didn't. find out until later. Right, that he maybe lied about it in the beginning. Right. That's true.

Or omitted it. I guess. Right. Yeah. So that's not a good sign. Again, I don't think there's a one size fits all for this, but I do think his blanket reassurances probably are not enough. You know, just the general, you're the one for me and let's go on vacation together next summer. Right. That was my fuckboy stage to me isn't like a true. That's like a very like, superficial introspective comment. Yes. I was young and immature as different than like, to me, more like, I think if he had said, like, you know, when I was doing that, I had a fear of like confrontation or just like being left

or I have like a, you know, something about the commitment was like very scary to me. Like, to me, there's not really leaving it to like a blanket phenomenon of like fuckboyness to me is not, would not be enough for me. Totally. Yep, I agree. I think that that's not. But that's not to say, you know, I think for her, she can test it out by digging in a little bit deeper and, you know, and saying like, this is continuing to make me anxious, especially now that we're long distance. And I'd like to have some more conversations about it. This might be their make or break right here. If they're long distance, they just started long distance, she wants to talk more about this. If he's like, yes, I will sit on the phone with you for two hours, ask your questions. I'm going to share. with you my introspection about why that happened. And I agree, not just college fuckboy phase, but like you said, I was insecure. So I needed attention from every, you know, pretty girl that came across my path or whatever it is. Like just digging a little bit deeper, I think is

going to show that he's actually able to be introspective enough to prevent this from happening again. Yeah. And I mean, in terms of like the past behaviors aren't indicative of future behaviors or are indicative rather. I think there's something to that. I think there's, I don't think it means like that they definitely will, but I do think the idea that someone could do something does indicate that it seems more likely than if they had never ever done it and had a strong stance against it. To me, that would, yeah, in terms of like probability, I would say that would be higher doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen. Right. It's true because it's also sort of like the, you know, you're ripping off the band-aid, maybe the first time he did that, he was like really anxious and it was

like really uncomfortable. And now he sort of has his sea legs in terms of cheating. And he's, you know, figured it out how to make it work. So I would agree that, you know, he's probably more likely if he's done it before than if it's his first time ever cheating on anyone ever. And now it's going to be you when you've been dating for two years. And he's telling you you're the one. Also, you don't know what he told anyone else that he was dating. I think, words to me are very like, I don't know. It's just like he's telling you you're the one and he would never do this, but how do you know what he told anyone else that he was dating? Like you don't know, you really don't know what their relationships were actually like with any of these people.

It could have been very different from you. It could have been very similar to you. And I think that's another thing to find out from him too. It's like what were these like connections like? Did you find these to be like more superficial relationships or did you find what feels different now than it was before? What makes it feel like so. probable that this would happen again? I think that this is a moment for them and he's probably not going to like it, but that's the question. Is he willing to do it even if he doesn't like it? So there's a couple of things that lead to cheating. One, I think is insecurity and that's something that he has to look into and be willing to talk about. Is he going to be vulnerable enough with you to talk about

why he did it? Perhaps he was insecure. Perhaps he was afraid of conflict, whatever his feelings are. And And another big one is just conflict avoidance. So I think that she can do a version of what I recommend to couples after an affair, which is like unlimited questions. Like after an affair, I'm always sort of like, I mean, I say unlimited. Unlimited for a period of time, not indefinite and with discrete, you know, sort of smaller chunks. So you can do like an hour a day versus. you're not going to have you don't have to do five hours every single day of unlimited questions which can have to work well what if the questions are like not necessarily helpful to resolving it what if the question is like and how was she right or like and where did you do it and how many times did you you know yes do it what was very this bit yeah it's very very tempting to get into the nitty gritty and that's where I always tell is that included in the unlimited questions part of the as I tell the betrayed partner, you have to be responsible for your own emotional health here.

So if you're asking questions that are making you feel worse with the answer, then you probably should take responsibility to stop asking those questions and not be, if you're looking to work on the relationship. You know, you can't be injecting yourself with more negativity. But sometimes people do feel better after asking some detailed questions because otherwise, their mind is running wild with possibilities. You know, their mind might be going crazy with what the sex was like and where it was and what his feelings were for her. And so sometimes getting a concrete answer can help you feel like, okay, that's one less

thing that I have to sit here and roll around it with imagination in my mind. Totally. Because it probably makes, because, again, the betrayal of it or the mistrust of it probably makes you now replay all past events where there could have been something going on. So it's like when you took that phone call in the beginning of my, you know, when we were on vacation or when we, when you said you were going on a business trip, like what was, you know, like. And so I do think it's good for the cheating spouse or cheating partner to be able to say, yes, that was her on the phone. Even though she's not going to want to hear it, that was her on the

phone. And this is what I was feeling in that moment. I was, you know, whatever the truth is that has to come out. And the questions help the truth come out because ultimately, again, and this is really only something I would recommend working on if you feel like there is a long-term potential in this relationship, because the work is long. It takes a long time and it's for a long-term result. But it ends up, the worst thing that can happen is you lie about taking that phone call or you don't answer that question or you, you know, sneak around the question and then you're pretty much recovered and then it comes out that something was different than what you said it was. And it was sort of like, I went through this phase with you where I was rebuilding trust and I was

like believing what you were saying. Not only did you lie to me the first time, but when we were recovering and reconnecting in this way that now I feel were even stronger than before, that was a lie too. So now, it's a lie too. So now, it's a lot. it's like ripping open that wound, even if it's small. So if you're going to do it, you have to do it right. Otherwise, don't even do it. Don't even do it. Right.

And that's so hard because I was talking with Shira about. Shira's our sister. Sorry, I was talking with her about that moment where you like send a wrong text to like if you send a text that isn't meant for somebody and it's like the wrong text and it's like not, it's maybe not something that that person should see. or here or whatever it is. I've had a couple of those in my life where you just get like this instantaneous physical like flush of sensation through your whole body.

Yes. So that's what's happening, especially if the unfaithful partner is caught instead of coming out with it. But even if they're doing a disclosure, they're going to be filled with that. So you're already so flooded that there's a huge, huge temptation to lie or minimize or omit in those first few conversations to soften the blow. But that's why therapy is helpful because it can help. You know, sometimes I'll be even in the session.

And if I sense that there's that what's happening, I'll slow everything down. That someone's lying? Yes. Okay. Or doing the thing where you're just going to minimize the answer, either lie or not tell the full truth or minimize something because you just can't take any more. more, you're already like at that point where I'll kind of wait till everything comes down and then I'll kind of be like, would you like to try that again, buy that one again?

And sometimes they'll do it again the right way. And it's a great moment because it shows I'm doing it differently now, you know. Is the idea that at the end of these sessions when you've done all the work that you can forgive the person and just not be like triggered by it anymore or not be not affect you anymore like what's the what's the end what's the best outcome in this situation the best outcome is that when you are triggered you can have the conversation in a way that doesn't feel so overwhelming and explosive that somebody's going to want to leave or abandon the relationship at that point that you know we've had these conversations so many times we know how to do this and we're going to have it again. I've had couples where they're recovered from an

affair that happened 10 years ago and then there's and this happens, it's almost laughable and I always feel bad for the people that are in it where it's like there's a TV show that has like the exact scenario of whatever happened in there. They're just like, okay, we're just going to watch it, have a movie night. Right. And all of a sudden it's like the, you know, the woman is the same, has the same look as the woman that, you know, and it was like at the same, they met at the gym and that's where they met at the gym. And it's like so triggering, you're lying in bed. And that can happen 10 years later. And then what does it look like if they're dealing with that in a healthy way? It looks like perhaps the person who's triggered pausing the movie and saying, I'm so triggered

by this. Like I am just getting flooded, like just expressing their feelings about it and just telling the other person exactly how they feel. Ideally not being verbally abusive, ideally not, you know, like doing anything because it's really hard for somebody to be empathic when they're being verbally abused. So that's a big piece of it, you know. If you want to elicit the response that you're looking for, you can't come out with nasty names. Yeah. I mean, that was something I definitely learned in my relationship is that like people are much more likely to want to resolve something if you come to them with vulnerability

and like sadness, which is a harder emotion for me than like anger. Right. But like if you're angry or yelling at someone, they just want to get away from you. Whereas like, you know, if you're sort of letting your guard down

and coming to it that way, which is so much harder, I think, for me at least, then the person like wants to soothe you. Totally. 100%. And that's, you know,

and I find that with couples all the time. Unfortunately, I always tell the, the betrayed partner like this sucks but you're going to have like the lion's share of the work because you're going to have to work on doing that coming at it with vulnerability and it usually is the outcome so much better like if let's just call it the woman was cheated on and the man you know is the unfaithful partner and she watches the movie and pauses it and comes at him with like you know cursing and screaming and I can't believe you did this to me and I can't even

look at your disgusting face or whatever she's going to say to him it's going to be very hard for him to lean in softly and gently. But if she's crying and she's just like sad and, you know, more like, she doesn't have to be quiet, but the words that are coming out of her mouth are more about how she is feeling in that moment and less about attacking him. He is so much better able to and almost wants to soothe and caretake and comfort and empathize and show remorse. It's in our DNA.

That's really hard. When someone is, there's certain facial expressions and physical emotions that we are instinctually designed to be repelled by and get angry when we see those things. They're just, it's in our makeup. So if someone's coming at you aggressively, you'd have to fight against millions of years of evolution to like lean into that and get closer and be gentle and warm. Just not, we're not wired that way. So that's how.

that would look. It would look like that and then it would look like the unfaithful partner being very open to set aside everything else that's going on. Lean in, have that conversation, apologize again for the 50 millionth time, ask questions about how she feels, be curious about her emotions and just really lean into those emotions. And you're going to have to do that periodically for the rest of your relationship. Right. So hopefully it's a sustainable amount. Yeah, or just don't cheat in the first place and have conversations before you get to that point. That's the easier way out to deal with the conflict. So I think back to this listener, I think that she can do a version of this question asking.

Even though it wasn't her that he cheated on, I still think she can do a version of the question asking just to be emotionally intimate with him and say these are the things that are running through my mind. These are the thoughts that I'm having. These are the fears that I have and see how he handles those questions. Right. And that would bring you closer. I would imagine if both people are honest, that'll make the relationship even stronger than if they were, you know, if it was never long distance and they were always just kind of like going on as they think.

That was just the only answer she got was the fuck boy thing. I think this is going to bring her closer if it's going to work. Totally. And maybe he can be open and vulnerable and that's going to bring them closer, you know, if he can admit to some shameful parts of himself or flaws instead of just saying, oh, college fuck boy, like, was there shame, was their guilt, was there remorse? How did you, you know, just really digging in? Right.

A hundred percent before they go long distance, I think it's actually a great way for them to either become more connected and that will help with the long distance or break up. Right. Because I also don't think the idea of like, well, you're better than these other people. So I would never cheat on you is like, particularly. accurate, I would imagine, most of the time. Because it's usually not a lot of the times it's not about the other person. It's usually about the person who's doing the cheating, I would imagine. Yes, for sure. So I think that's another sign that a person is not ready to change is if they're

blaming it on the other person. Because nobody's going to make you cheat. You could just end the the relationship. Leave the relationship. Right. It's more about the person. Right. That's how they're dealing with the conflict within the relationship. Right. Obviously, cheating is very ethical in its nature. Let's do a betchesist email about just this topic. Hi, Jordana, Naomi, really loving the podcast so far. I've got a quick question for both of you about what I should do about a friend in their relationship. Long story short, I've got a bit of proof that my friend's boyfriend has been cheating on her.

Sad face. She has the same information that I do. Don't include the sad face if you're going to tell her. She has the same information that I do. do, but I don't think she has connected the dots about what it means, or she's choosing to stay blind about it, or she's just in love. However, she's got a big international trip coming up with said boyfriend, and I'd like to talk to her about the cheating. Is it worth it to risk ruining her trip, or do I wait until afterwards to say something or say nothing at all? I'm a bit

stuck because I've been in her situation, boyfriend cheating and me not finding out about it, and I'd really hate for her to continue to move forward with the relationship and getting more and love when he's clearly stepping out on her. She doesn't deserve this, and I'd really hate for this to continue. Thanks for your advice. Interesting. I mean, she doesn't really give any details about how she's connected the dots and the other friend hasn't connected the dots.

Right, right. So I don't know how accurate is what she's saying. I assume, like, she seems pretty sure, I guess. Yeah, she does seem pretty sure. Let's go on the basis that she knows. and it sounds like the other girls maybe in denial. And maybe she's having the same thoughts of like, but I have this big international trip coming up.

I don't want to ruin it. My take is I do think that it's worth bringing up the conversation before the trip. Because I think when you do, and I don't know if they travel often together, but I think when you do a trip like this, it really does bring you closer and you create all these memories and have all this connection. And I think that might make it a little bit harder for her to get

over the breakup after having such an intense emotional experience. I'm sure to take a ton of pictures and like all that stuff. So I would bring it up, but I would bring it up in like a eye kind of way, not like an accusing way, but just sort of like this, that and this makes me concerned. And then that's the most that you can kind of. Right. And then you've done your duty. You've brought it up in a light, gentle way. And now she has the option. If she wants to deal with it before the trip or after the trip, but you've done your duty as a friend in letting her know. Yeah, I agree. She shouldn't be like, and we all know that like Brad is cheating on you and you should dump

him, almost like not like giving her directives, but just saying like, this thing has been weighing on my mind. I just wanted to talk to you about it and like, because I would want to know. Right. Or. And she had this happen to her. So she sort of can put it, she can make it kind of like about her a little bit. it. You know, I just want to, this has been like weighing on me. This happened to me. I would,

I would want to know if this were happening. I'm just going to tell you what I know and you can do with it what you will. Obviously, it sounds like she knows the same things, which is interesting. And I'm curious to see how she would handle it. But then at least it, she's done her part. It gives the friend the opportunity to say, oh, that's not what that is. That's this or that's that. Or he explained that to me and like, we're living on our trip. Bye. But at least she's on your part. And that's her choice and like if that's something that she wants to do I think that you have to let her play it out on her own most people don't do things because someone else told them to yes and if she's feeling like in denial or very defensive over the relationship then like let her have that but I think if you're a friend

you've done all that you needed to do just by saying what you know and giving her the opportunity to have someone to talk to about it because again like maybe she kind of feels like she's kind of embarrassed about this thing she doesn't want to like say it because she wants to protect the relationship, but if you're kind of like opening the door in that way and saying, like, I've noticed these things that make me a little worried about you, then she can either, like, lean into that opportunity or continue to deny it. And that's kind of like her choice, but you've already done all you need to do. Yeah. I do think the approach is important. The way that, and I agree, as a friend, it might be really nice for you to do it softly and non-judgmentally so that if she doesn't

end it now, but she decides to end it later, that, you're someone that she can talk to about it that's, you know, going to be supportive instead of making her feel badly or shameful. Like we talked about like the shame and staying with someone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now you don't even want to go to anybody because you feel stupid or like they're going to judge you. Yeah. I do think there's the possibility though if she does say something that the friend like maybe distances herself if she does choose to stay with the guy for whatever reason. I could see her and she should be prepared for this for her potentially distancing her from this other person, especially of what she's saying is true, because if she's not ready

to face that reality, then this is the person who's sort of been upfront with what's going on in the reality. And so in an effort to avoid that, she might avoid the friend a little bit. Totally agree. So yeah, you're going to have to be, like you said, I think prepared that this may change your friendship, perhaps, but you can rest in knowing that you did the right thing and you did what you would have wanted someone to do for you. Right. One other, ethical dilemma. I just wanted to I know we're a little short on time, but I wanted to bring it up because I've seen this question a lot. I don't know if I have any specific

emails yet on it, but what if, let's say, you hook up with a guy and then you look at his Instagram and you see as a girlfriend. Should you message the girlfriend, tell her that you guys talked up? I've seen that question a lot on you up. Right. Oh, interesting. You don't know this person. Right. Is it your duty to tell her that? Oh, gosh. This is one where I wouldn't, if this was in my therapy office, I would not be giving direct

advice. I would kind of be playing the whole like, well, what would be the benefits? Right. Because I don't think there's one right answer here. Right. I think it's sort of what would be the benefits and what would, you know, if you're doing it to kind of get back at him, I don't know that that's the best reason to do it. If you're doing it because you genuinely like have care for this woman and you

want to help her and I think the way that you approach it is going to be it's going to be different depending on what your motivations are. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. I think I wouldn't do it because I don't know anything about their relationship. I don't know if they have an understanding. I don't know if like and I agree. I think most of the time it's usually even if you won't admit to it, it's usually sort of as a way of like getting back at this guy who like maybe hooked up with you under false pretences or something like that. And it's almost like you don't know also how crazy people are. Right.

So like this other, you might just be throwing yourself into like a completely insane mix of like two very crazy people maybe and someone's like going to get revenge on you or someone could be like wanting to, you know what I mean? Either one of them maybe. I would just like almost like stay away from like the, I think Jared has said this before like it's like a house that's on. fire. Because especially if you didn't know, I don't think you necessarily like, oh, anyone to be yourself getting involved in this situation. It's one thing if you're like having a longstanding affair and you know everything and you know what I mean. Like you know you're deeply implicated into the ups and downs. But I don't know. To me, I'd be almost like a little scared to involve myself and in some other potentially like extremely dramatic. And I don't know. Yeah. I actually, I

agree with that. I don't think there's any reason to inject more negativity and drama into the world. If this was a friend, someone you knew, someone you liked, somebody you cared about, that's different. But if it's a total stranger, I agree. I would just steer clear. Yeah. And they'll find out eventually, I think, on their own, I would imagine. Yeah. And that's their path that they're on. You're not really in their life as a player that gets to influence that for them. So yeah, I would agree. Yeah. And if you didn't know, you truly didn't know, then like, this isn't really your thing to work out. This is someone else's thing to work out. Right. And it's just, you know, sometimes these situations, if there's unhealthy players involved, it just creates a lot of drama like you're saying. And, you know,

some of these girls are going to be texting you at work and asking you questions about where and when and how and who and you're, you know. Or maybe the other guy finds out that you told her and now gets very angry at you and starts also texting you crazy thing. Like, who knows? Right. Totally. I don't know. So it's very, like, potentially dangerous situation. Should we do some triggered? Let's do some triggered. Triggered games. I'm going to rate the triggers scale of 1 to 10.

Becca, should we play the first one? It's a voicemail. Hello, oversharing podcast. I wanted to share something for the Trigger. I was on a flight. And I was playing the Delta flight with the screen. I was playing a little game, the word scramble, you know, some bored as hell.

on the flight. And this woman starts touching my screen and she came up with a word on my screen. Should I be triggered? Should I hit her in the face? I'm just kidding. I didn't do that. But I was at the pulse. Like, people argue over who gets what?

Like armrest in the middle seat. I definitely get my own screen. I don't know. I want you think. Am I being dramatic? We'll love to hear. Love you guys. Okay.

That was very funny. Very funny. And that is kind of crazy. Yeah. But you always say, I don't know if it would be triggering, but it is kind of weird. It might be kind of annoying. I would give it like, I would give it like a two because I think it would be, I would almost like it because it'd be like, okay, this is a great story.

Right. Assuming I wasn't like that invested in the game, I think I would have to be like pretty like. Right. Like it was the last word. You've been trying to get it for like 15 minutes. And then she comes in and she's like, oh, that's what it is. A, and it's like dejecting because you're like, oh, I think you're so much smarter. You just came in and like found the word in two seconds.

Right. B, you've just taken all the wind out of my sales. I think I would like it. I'd be like, this is a great story. This person's crazy. I don't even think I would say anything. From her perspective, she probably thought that she was being like friendly and fun. And like, you know, like if someone did that at a bar, maybe you might feel like if

you're playing like one of those games at a bar and like a cute boy came over and did that you'd probably be like, oh, like that was, he likes me. Right. This is not that scenario. But I think the sentiment was the same. Like, let's have a connection here. Right. I think it's low triggering because it doesn't seem personal at all. It seems like she would have done that to anyone was sitting there. Yeah. And I feel like things that really trigger me are usually things that are pretty personal. Unless like, again, unless she was like, a lot of my self-esteem was riding on getting this. Right. I also think there is a piece of like your privacy, not privacy necessarily, but like now for the rest of the flight, I don't know how far in. She has to feel like this person's kind of watching her sitting within

inches, like within centimeters of her. And now she's like looking and watching what I'm doing. Like I don't have any feeling of privacy right now at all. So that could be sort of triggering. I was once on a red eye. I was in a row. There was an empty seat in between me and this other woman. and she, I guess, fell asleep and, like, put her arms around me, like, while she was sleeping. I was all very uncomfortable. She was like, she was like, hold it. Like, she was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I thought you were my fiance or something.

But then she did it again. That was a very uncomfortable flight. My gosh. Wait. So how long did you sit there before you, like, found your way out of that? I mean, it was tough because it was like in the middle of the night. It was like in the middle of the night. And I was like, I'm not even like time.

was, I was like, I was almost have asleep, but I was like, kind of get off me, but also, I think I just led her because I was just like, I can't, again, I'm going to be sitting, I can't really get away with not sitting next to this person for the rest of the blight. So I'm just kind of like, we got to do it. I mean, she was kind of doing that. It was very, it was very weird. It was very weird. But yeah, plain boundaries. That's some conflict avoidance on your part at the point. Probably. I mean, what was I supposed to say? Like, I get it. It feels very rude to be like, like, get. I would have probably just moved. I think I kind of did that.

And then she like woke up and she was like, oh, I'm sorry. But then she did it again. Oh, gosh. That's what I'm saying. That she like fell asleep again or it almost like didn't seem like an accident. And I was like, okay, if you were a man, I think if she were a man, I would have felt like a lot more comfortable being like, please like get off. I don't know. It felt less invasive.

Right. It wasn't like it didn't feel like aggressive or like he was trying to do. like she was trying to like do something perhaps to you. Right. Oh, wow. That's really funny. I don't know. I forgot about that until this moment.

But yeah, on a plane, any situation where you can't like confront someone and then if it doesn't go well, just leave. I think it's very hard for, I don't like confrontation in general, but to me that's like the worst case scenario.

Now you're sitting there for so many. But I think any normal person would, they would be the one that would feel uncomfortable. I don't think anyone would be upset with you or think, what a bitch. She didn't let me snuggle with her on the plane. Yeah, I should have used that to practice, I guess, my conflict tolerance. Yeah. Well, you would have just been like, sorry, could you just please?

I don't know if I would have even verbalized. I think I would have acted like I was trying to preserve her sleep, but just like gently put her body parts back on her chair. On herself, her own self. Yes. that's really funny. I'll try that next time. Oh, those are good.

Send those in if anybody has those. For plain especially. That's really funny. Yeah. Plain serious. All right. Let's do another one. Okay.

Let's do another one. I broke up with my boyfriend of four years six months ago and have never been happier. However, ever since the breakup, I've had several close family members and friends tell me how much they've always hated him throughout our relationship. I'm currently in a very happy and healthy relationship, so I try and let the comments slide, but it still hurts my feelings since I spent a significant amount of time with my ex. I see clearly that my ex never treated me the way I deserve, but that doesn't mean I wish him any ill will. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of him and I've clearly moved on. So how triggered

should I be? What do you think? Yeah, she's saying this is about like that she doesn't wish him ill will and maybe they are saying like really mean things about him. But I think this might be more about perhaps her feeling like everyone was kind of thinking this behind her back for four years and never said anything that I could see being kind of triggering. Right. I think that part of it and also almost like feeling a feeling of a sense of like embarrassment of like, okay, like I've processed this as just a relationship that was like, that didn't really work out. And you're processing this is like sort of this embarrassing person that I dated for that long. Right. Like I should be ashamed of. Because sometimes who you date feels

like a reflection on you. So I wonder if that's part of it where she's like, oh, like everyone thinks she was dating this loser for all these years and she's the kind of person who would date them. I think that that would be a fear of mine maybe. But I do think they're saying it as a compliment of like sometimes people say that when they're like trying to like make you feel better about your decision. Right, right. Exactly. Like, oh, this is definitely the right decision.

Don't look back. Everyone hated him anyway. Right. So I think they're saying it to try to be nice. But to me it would be more triggering if they were like we always loved. you know, whatever the ex-s-name was. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Are you sure? Right. You guys can't work it out. Like that would be so much worse to me. But I could see being annoyed on the other end, too. I'd give this a six, maybe a seven. Seven. Yeah, I could see.

Like you said, I think the other one, the reverse would be like a seven or an eight. That's true. But I would agree with a six. I think it, you know, it probably touches on her own insecurities of, of, of dating him. And also, I think she's the only one that probably saw, you know, that had all the connection and the good times and all the stuff that made it great. And they're not accounting for any of that. So it makes her look kind of crazy. Like, how did you date this guy? All he did were these things that he did in front of us that we didn't like. I'm sure there was a lot more to it that

she's probably feeling like, but you don't even know. He was a pretty good guy in a lot of ways. Yeah, because sometimes who we date feels like a reflection on like who we are. So if someone doesn't like who you're dating, it can kind of feel like they don't respect to you if they don't respect the person that you've chosen. And four years, six, you know, four year relationship. That's a long time. Let's do one more. Okay. I love, love, love the new podcast. Quick triggered scenario that I would love to get your opinions on. Would you be upset if a coworker told you that you were quote unquote punching above your looks with your husband? Someone said this to me at a social gathering. I think this got cut off.

Yeah. Someone said this to me at a social gathering for work and I was low-key, super offended. Can't wait to hear your take on this. I think that's offensive, yeah, I would say. That's extremely offensive. Yeah. I would say, and it's funny because I think that this is sort of a double standard. If someone said this to a man about a woman, it would be like he would be very complimented and like it.

But I think saying this to a woman is a lot more offensive than saying it to a man, right or wrong. That's not okay. but I think societally, I would be pretty offended. Right. There's like a, you know, someone once said to Jeff, which, you know, wasn't offensive to me, but something like, oh, you married up. And he's like, whoa, whoa, what? I don't think he was like, I don't think he felt flattered by that comment.

Right. Yeah. He was sort of like, what does it say about me? Like, what do you? I don't know. I don't know how he felt about it, but I didn't mind the comment. Yeah, I mean, it's flattering for the other person. but I think to say this to a woman punching up.

Oh gosh. This is not nice. And I also wonder if it was a woman, then I would have to feel afraid like this person's like after my husband. Right. Yeah. It's also just like a rude thing to say. Oh, rude. This sounds like a drunk thing.

Yeah. I do feel like guys say that to each other a lot. Like she's out of your league or like, you know what I mean? Like no woman is proclaiming that her husband is out of her league. I've never like men say that all the time. Right. Yeah, you're right. There is a cute flattering thing. Right. There is a difference there. Like, people find it okay to say this to a man and it somehow feels like flattering. But when you say it to a woman, it seems very offensive. I think it's offensive on either end when you would say that to somebody. Yeah. I guess it is. Yeah, I would give this like an eight for sure. I agree with that. I would try not to take it too personally. But I would probably think about it for a while, which is great. You know, sad.

Yeah. I mean, look, this person's opinion means nothing, but it was just very rude. Sounds like something somebody would say if they were under the influence. I don't think most people would say that sober. It's very rude. Agreed. Yeah. Well, I think we solved these interpersonal issues today.

What do you think? I hope so. I hope we help some people keep sending stuff in. We love to hear from you. All right. I think that's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby.

Jorge Morelas Picoe, and Rebecca Salis McCaff. Editing by Massilio Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com. We'll leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches.