Oversharing - Can We Find Happiness In Being Single? Ft. Almost 30

Episode Date: September 13, 2022

Did Jordana complete her cold shower assignment from last week? Maybe not, but she did learn a valuable lesson from the experience anyway. Naomi explains how our ability to vocalize discomfort reflects our level of assertiveness. In this week’s Overshare, a listener is feeling obligated to maintain friendships and if she should be the fist one to “crack the pack”. They bring on the show’s very first guests, Krista Williams and Lindsey Simcik of Almost 30. Naomi is eager to talk about finding a sacredness in being single. Can we as a society find happiness in our individual accomplishments? Or will we always think our happiness is weighted in our relationships? They end on Triggered submissions about a mom’s unnecessary facebook comment, a flakey friend, and a sh*t talking sister-in-law. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. So good to be back.

How was your weekend? It was really good. I was looking forward to today. I wanted to check in and see if you did your home. homework. Oh, I was just thinking about that because I didn't do it yet, but I figured we usually record once a week and this one was Thursday. So I feel like I have until the next session to do it. Okay. I didn't have as much time. I usually have a full week between sessions, but. How many showers did you take between last session and this session? Probably four, but you know what?

My neck has been hurting me. So I was like not in the mood to experiment with a cold shower. Yeah. I could see that. I sound like I'm like a. student who's just making just my foot hurts I don't know like all right fine I had a feeling you weren't going to do it for some reason I've only had like four days and I needed a longer period of time all right we'll give you we'll give you some more time if you don't do it by next week then I'll have Mike do it and then he can hop on and tell us all about his experience I don't think Mike's going to do it he's quite resistant to being uncomfortable in water in particular. He won't even put his head under the water like at the beach. He like, well,

he'll go in, but he doesn't like. Right. Not above the belly button. Yeah. So hot. With the arms up, the elbows up above the shoulders. That's, that's a sexy look. It was one of the least sexy things you're just like, you know, just like put, no one can see us, but you just, yeah, exactly what the maneuver you just did. But that's, I'm going to try it. Okay, just try it. Honestly, there's an escape valve, turn it down if it gets too cold. Honestly, try it. And if you don't like it, then don't try it. You know what I'm saying? Like if you get in there, think about it. And if you're not willing to do it once you're in, then we can just discuss that too. I can meet you where you're at. Okay. With the resistance on that. Do you do this? I try to do it like once a week. I don't do it every shower that I'm in, but I have to remember to do it. But I really try to. to do it on occasion. And since, you know, I'm not into cold water either. The kids will tell you, like, I don't get in the pool if it's lower than 90 degrees in the pool. Oh, wow. Yeah. I like warm water. But then sometimes I will get in, not because I want to, but just because I want to do this

exercise in, like, breathing into my discomfort. So I don't do it for the, I don't go in when it's cold for the joy of it. I go in for the challenge and the mental moment to breathe into my discomfort. So yeah, it's not easy for me either. I really don't like cold water. Or just being uncomfortable. I think like your threshold for being uncomfortable is definitely a spectrum. You know what I think it is? People's perceptions of other people's threshold for being uncomfortable is oftentimes just how verbal you are about your discomfort. So it's like if I'm going to tell you a lot about how uncomfortable I am, then I'm going to seem really uncomfortable. But some people are really uncomfortable, they just don't share it with everybody. That's true. Maybe everyone has,

is similarly uncomfortable and some people are just more annoying than others. Yes. What you're saying. Some people like to spew their discomfort and like misery loves company and just kind of get everybody on board feeling badly for them and some people just suffer in silence. What is the best mid-range level? Let's go up a scenario, right? Okay. You're at a restaurant in the winter, right? And you get seated. You get seated fairly quickly. The table that they seat you at is right next to the door.

And there's cold air kind of like coming in. You kind of feel like you need to wear your jacket for this whole thing. Right. Do you say something or do you just wear the jacket and let it go? That's sort of the persistent thought process that I have about most things. Totally. Do I just get over it and like it's fine? or do I, you know what, I'm going to say something.

Right. Right. Right. And I do think it is sort of indicative of how you handle discomfort. You know, is it like this external, like I think we've talked about here, like an external locus of control, meaning like, do I want to try to change the outside environment to make myself feel better? Or do I want to try to change my internal environment to make myself feel better, which is like the shower example. So if you're cold at the restaurant, you could just be like, okay, I'm going to put on my jacket. I'm going to breathe. I'm going to distract myself and think about other things. Or I'm going to

change the external by saying, hey, can we get a different table or, you know, same thing with like returning food. Like if you get a drink and you ask for a spicy margarita, it's like a little too spicy. You're like, okay, am I just going to like kind of quietly drink this and like take a bite of food after every sip or am I going to return it? I feel like it's sort of a back and forth of like, do I want to be annoying or do I want to be a sucker. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, why should I get seated at this table? Like the worst table? Why should I, you know what I mean? Why should I drink this if I don't like it? Like versus you're that person that's just super annoying. And I guess the question you have to ask yourself is like, am I the person who's complaining about everything and actually being very difficult to deal with?

Or am I a normal person with the normal need thinking about this rationally? Right. And sometimes you're not sure. Right. Well, you know, I think. another way to think about it is like what am I trying to work on, right? So if you are already leaning towards the side of like not being able to tolerate things that are not going your way, then maybe you lean more towards like, I'm just going to breathe into this and relax into this discomfort. But if you're the type of person who generally has a hard time being assertive or has a hard time saying what they need or it feels like you often get walked over, then maybe you want to push yourself towards,

you know, doing a little exposure and being more assertive. So like figure out like what's, I'm always a big fan of like figure out what's going against the grain for you a little bit. And if you want self-growth and change and balance, maybe you can push yourself against your grain a little bit in these types of situations. Or if you feel like you have great balance, then just trust your instincts and do it.

Right. Comes naturally. But some people will say, I have a hard time being assertive. Okay, so let's practice being assertive. What does great balance look like in this situation? When you see a person interacting with someone trying to get what they want and you're like, that was a very balanced normal person with, you know, who's right in the middle of

being able to express their needs, but not annoying, as we say. That's a good question. I think sometimes what it might look like is like how, again, coming back to the physical activation in your body, like how physically activated are you by this thing? And like, can you patiently wait until your physical activation kind of comes down before you make your decision? So, like, that's a training process is like not being impulsive, not acting immediately. Like for the person who's conflict avoidant or has trouble being assertive, if the waitress comes over and is like, oh, are you guys cold? Would you like a new table? And you're like, no, no, no, that's fine. Just because

you're like just impulsively acting on your need to please other people. Right. Versus the person who's like calmly breathing and saying, take a deep breath and say, you know what? Actually, it is a little chilly over here. Is there another table available? You know, so I think just kind of the balance comes and being able to breathe, stay calm and make sort of a calm intentional decision versus like an impulsive. I need to make myself feel better right now because this feeling is so uncomfortable that I can't

That's true. You do think about that in most interactions. Like, when you look at them from the outside, you're like, the person who looks the best in this scenario is the one that is not screaming. Like, right. And you see anyone else fighting? It's always the person that's like the most activated that you think of is kind of losing just by their nature of the way that the person they've become.

Totally. It's hard. You know, and I feel bad for those people too, which is why, you know, sometimes that comes from stuffing stuff down for so long that you explode. So that person could be the person who's just like not assertive, not assertive, not assertive, and then blows their top. But usually, you know, it's the same people that are making a stink at most events. Or the person that has no problem calling the waiter over and sending the food back. Oh, you don't like that? Hold on a second. Right. I'll almost say want to do it. Right. Like, I'll take care of this. I'm just imagining

like a Zen monk at the table. That's who you would imagine. would be the most stable. Yeah, probably not the one sending the food back. You know, to be honest, they're probably just like, okay, I'm grateful. I have some food here. They're probably leaning towards the quieter person. Acceptance, acceptance. Yes, acceptance.

Okay. Well, we can all work on that, you know, as these things come up. But I agree with what you said. It's practice. Practice. And like going against, like, if you want balance, you, most people know which way they're leaning, right? and especially people who have like a huge leaning towards like anger and impulsivity. Like those people can lean really hard the other way before they're going to be too complacent.

And the people that are super complacent and eager to please can lean really hard in the direction of like assertiveness before they're going to be like aggressive and confrontational. Do you feel like assertiveness and aggression is also sort of correlated to the need for control? Oh yeah, for sure. trying to control your environment. Like it does feel like if you're quieter or if you don't say stuff as much, you're just, you're less concerned with having control over your situation. Right. And just more able to accept the world as it is coming in. Look, I'll admit, I have a bias in that direction just because of my own, you know, theoretical orientation and mindfulness training and acceptance and all of that. I will admittedly have a bias towards accepting a situation instead of

jumping in and trying to change it and control it. And I don't think sometimes that's not beneficial for people who might be in situations where they're being taken advantage of or things like that. But I do think that most of the time when you're being extremely aggressive or assertive on most issues, it's because you're having a hard time tolerating whatever's happening. And the world's just going to happen. The world is going to happen. There's going to be lots of stuff all the time that don't, that doesn't go the way you

want it to. That's true. It's probably easier to just learn how to do it within your own body and mind versus needing to try to control the external environment because it's just like, that's true. Impossible. Yeah. Although I guess some circumstances call for it. But in most cases, like you said, there's this thing.

I think Malcolm Gladwell calls it the default to truth, which is that like most people, their default is to believe whatever the person that they're speaking to is telling them. Right. So the waiters like we actually don't have any other tables. I'm sorry. Like most people are going to be like, okay. Right. And that's almost like a nicer life.

Yes. Then to constantly be like thinking that you're getting scammed or that you're, you know what I mean, that you're poking. Like you don't believe anyone. Right. Because even if let's say, you know, let's say one out of ten times, you're right. Right. And you like found the guy who was lying and you figure.

out that he was lying and you called him out and you got the table, sitting at that better table is probably not worth all of the mental exercises that you had to do and the worrying and the thinking that you were doing the whole time to catch somebody one out of ten times. Right. And most people don't really put that in the equation of their overall happiness. Because that does take away from it. I just don't think people realize it. It's either like I won or I lost. Yes. There's a mental cost to it. You know, how much time you're spending, investigating, mistrusting. You're now instead of being at your dinner, like enjoying the conversation,

you're watching the other people come in and the empty tables and like who's being sat where. It's like, right. You've really taken away from your meal. Totally. I agree. Okay. Well, let's get into our episode.

Guys, if you have an email or a situation that you would like our take on, ethical, just a general life problem, email oversharing at betches.com, or you can call our voicemail. at 64636363, 6294. I have a good voicemail that I saved for our next episode, but it could be you guys just, it's great to hear your voice as you, as you say these. But that'll be for next week.

But if you have a voicemail, again, 646363, 6294. Or if you prefer writing, you can email us at oversharing at betches.com. Let's get into today's email. By the way, if you want to leave us a voicemail or you want to leave us your own email about an irritating moment, you can email oversharing at Betches.com, or you can call 646-363-6294 and leave us a voicemail about the time that you were very irritated in your day life or anything else that

you guys think of. All right. Let's do it. Okay. Dear Gergana and Dr. Naomi, hello from Canada. Love a Canadian fan. Yeah. Thanks for all you do in providing me with a little therapy sessions that I didn't realize I needed. I have a relationship quandary. I'm hoping, can help me with. I have a group of girlfriends from my middle school days that I'm still very close with. We're now in our mid-20s and two girls from the group are getting married soon. I'm in the bridal party for both weddings. This made me think about who I wanted to invite to my own wedding, which is only a couple years away, if all goes well. Fingers crossed emojis. Better get that guest list ready right now. It's funny that the emotional masturbation, as I like

to call it, that goes into like the idea of weddings, like two years in advance, you're thinking about like who's going to be cut from your wedding guest list. I feel like most men are not in that. Oh, not even close. Yeah. There's one girl in the group, let's call her Anne, that I don't quite get along with. When we are all together, Anne and I are friendly, but I don't consider her my friend. Back in middle school, she teased me about my pudgyer body, which I've never really got over. More recently, she's done some questionable things like leaving me at the airport with our ride because she didn't know where I was, quote unquote, after I told her I was going to the restroom. On the same trip, she checked into our returning flight without me purposely

and left me to sit by myself on the other side of the plane. I know it's purposeful because we agreed to check in together and get seats together later in the evening and she gathered everyone else to do it while I was showering. I guess you could say we have some unresolved issues that we never properly communicated. And maybe I should talk to her, but I have talked to other girls in my group about this, and they obviously don't have a problem with her since she's also in the bridal party for both of the weddings I mentioned earlier. I guess my question is, am I obligated to invite her to my wedding? I put that a go wedding in two years. If she was any other acquaintance, I wouldn't even consider her. But just the fact that she's in our tight friend group makes the decision harder. If she didn't invite me to her wedding, I'd probably be a little sad only because all of our other friends in the group would be going and I would be left out again. Sincerely obligated fetch. All right. I think this is an interesting question. Again, not because of the actual question about whether or not she should invite

this girl to her wedding. And I don't really think it's about that. I think it's about bigger picture. Does she have to maintain this friendship with this person in any way? And it really made me think about when, and especially for women, but men also, to an extent, when you're starting in middle school, and it's funny that they met in middle school, starting in middle school, there's almost this thing that happens where girls have to find their pack to sort of survive. It's like a survival instinct to find a pack of girls that are going to protect you, that are going to make sure you have plans, that are going to make sure you're not eating alone at lunch, that are going to make sure nobody's making fun of you. It's almost this very animalistic social instinct thing

that happens probably around, you know, 12 or 13 and then lasts a long time all the way up through college. Like even in sorority, I mean, you could speak more to sororities. Or sometimes after that. Yes. So this is actually this. They're out of college. So I think it's an interesting discussion to think about how to, if you want to, and then how to shift out of this protective hack mentality that probably it's fun and it's great and it's, you know, does provide this protection in a lot of ways. But then as you mature, you start to feel more confident in yourself. You start to feel less scared of the social, world around you and then maybe you can sort of separate a little bit and no like I'm okay by myself. I don't need this pack. And if I she sounds like she's the first one that's potentially going to be excommunicating herself, I guess we could say. But it sounds like she likes the other girls, just not this one girl within. Right. But I guess she's like she's going to crack the pack. Right. That's true. That's right. She's the first one that's going to kind of say like this isn't an all

or nothing scenario for me, which is one of the first steps, I think, and a lot of women, myself included, and I don't know about you, but at some point, somebody's going to create a crack in the armor of this protective pack, and it's going to probably trigger some people because there is that safety in that group. And I also think, I mean, I can relate to the listener in that I've had this come up and I think that if you're the person with the problem

with one other person in the group, it can be tough because you're like, it's like, why are you like messing with this thing that is like historical?

Right. You know what I mean? It's because there's so much history, it almost feels like you need to have a built-in loyalty to people or that because historically you were friends in name or in practice, then it feels like, like much more aggressive to be.

like I'm drawing a line in the sand rather than just like continuing to somewhat maintain this friendship. Right. Like you're doing something that's like bigger than your, like almost like a disrespectful thing perhaps to the history and. Well, it's like if your mom, if it's almost like if you get into a fight with your sister and you're not speaking, then it's like, okay, now like what's Christmas going to be like? Right.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like you've made it weird for everyone because you. you have created a, you know, you've drawn this line, even if it's like you've silently been irritated with each other for a while, that can sometimes feel more comfortable than like, you've drawn this line. It's now established you're not friends. And now because we're going to see each other at all these group events, you've made it weird for everyone. And I've been the one to make it a little weird for everyone. Oh, really? Yeah, by saying how I actually feel. Oh, good for you. Interesting. So would you care to share a little bit of personal experience?

on how you kind of put a crack in the pack, so to speak? Yeah. So, I mean, in this case for the listener, which I didn't feel, she feels like the person, what it seems like, has, like, wronged her on many occasions or something like that. Or she thinks of a time that the person was just not, was being a bad friend to her, right? In my case, I think it was more that I just felt like I wasn't really connected to this childhood friend that I had, that we were close at an earlier stage of our lives, but we kind of had grown into people who just didn't really connect anymore. Right. It's funny. I was thinking the same thing. Like, it's almost, it's okay to say with a boyfriend or a date or it's not a match. But sometimes with a friend, it's like, it's not a match anymore. It's just,

and, you know, I don't want to have to fake it. Right. And for me, I was kind of like, I am happy to see this person at group events and do that thing. And again, this is a little bit different than the listener situation. But for me, it was more, they wanted to do more one-on-one hang out. or get-togethers or I think they had a feeling like I was like they were closer to me and I just didn't feel close to them. I wasn't as enjoyable for me to, but we had this larger friend group. Right. I was torn as to like whether or not to just let it go and not say anything and just let it be just kind of, again, silently be feeling disconnected or to say something. And I wound up saying something because the person noticed my.

my pullback or my not being as engaged or not answering text as quickly or as enthusiastically as they, and because they asked, I said something. I said, I just, I don't really feel as I appreciate the historic, like that we've been friends since childhood and that like you did absolutely nothing wrong. I just feel like we've grown kind of apart and we have different ways of viewing the world. And I just don't really feel like we connect that much. And that was a very, I think that was a very painful thing for her to hear. And sometimes I regret even saying it because I'm kind of like, couldn't I have just gone to brunch and like baked it? Do you what I mean? And not been, because it's not like a relationship where like you can't meet other friends. It's like an

exclusive thing. Like I could have just done that. But on the other hand, I'm kind of like if the person asked, then they probably want to know. Right. But I don't think that she really wanted to know. Right. Yeah, that's so hard. She was probably just trying to you know, see if she could, you know, make things better. But if you ask the question, you have to be kind of prepared. Right. For the answer. Yeah.

And I mean, what that did was like you said, crack the friend group a little bit to where, you know, at other people's weddings where she was there and I was where it became kind of weird. It became like a little awkward. We were like a group of a certain number of girls. And then we were kind of again, like, I think that started the nature of like, we're a friend group, but we also are more, it's the more important. thing within the friend group is the individual relationships we each have with each other.

And then the group is like a nice thing for like a group dinner every now and then or like, you know, you're always like that. When you were younger, was it about the individual friendships that you had with each person within the group or when you were younger, would you say it was more about like the group? Or you think it's much more about the group, especially as there's much more group things that are like, it's funny because I feel like after college, there's way less group. There's no like built in group things where you need to have a group 100% until like you get married. And then it's like name your five best friends. And then we'll be in your wedding party. So it becomes like, do you know what I mean? That's before that you have like sororities or you have,

you know, who's going to be in your prom limo or we're going to take pictures with at like prom. Who am I going to stand with at graduation? Like there's all these life events that I think the group dynamic is a lot more built into. go back, you would make the same choice with this friend? I think about that a lot. Because when I think about her, I don't like miss her necessarily. I'm not like, oh, I miss that friendship. But I am like, I feel bad that I hurt someone that they now are walking around like the

world having pretty negative feelings about me. Yeah. I don't like the, you know what I mean? It kind of feels like if you broke up with a guy and then you're kind of like this person just thinks of me in an unfavorable way. Right. She did mean a lot to me in the fact. that we had a lot of history together.

But that was really, it's kind of like when I look back at it, that was all there was. There was the history of when we were 12, we were hanging out after school every day. But like we're not, you know, people are constantly changing and I don't feel like I'm the same person that I was when I was 12. Totally. And neither is she. Yeah. And I guess it's a very personal decision and it has to do with where you are in your life

in terms of whether you're willing to just like do the occasional brunch. thing just to maintain the friendship and not make it weird. Or if someone's asking, you want to tell them the truth about how you feel. And I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it. I do think these weddings, like this writer is saying, kind of brings everything to a head, except for her where her wedding is not for two years, but for hypothetical wedding, she's not engaged. But most people, that is a place where it kind of can call out those types of situations. I mean, to get to her question, I think I would say, let's say her wedding was soon and she was about to send out the invitations. I mean, you know, I think she has a right to do whatever she wants.

And I do think at some point you can do what you did, which is say, like, I don't really want to fake this anymore. I want to be able to just be honest and move forward with the friendships that are meaningful because I'm getting married. I have a lot going on. I have work. Maybe down the road you have kids. Like, how much time do you have? barely have time for your real genuine friendships at some point in life, let alone have time to just do the pity brunch. Well, that's the other part of this too is like, you know, when you're

12, all you have is free time. Exactly. When you're 35 and you have kids or something like, you know what I mean? Like you're kind of have to be a lot more. You can't just do things because right. You know. Yeah, you're not going to get a babysitter and pay a babysitter. Ask your husband to watch just to go to a brunch that you don't even want to go to. So I do get that. And, you're get that. But flip side, if everyone in this group is being invited, I think to exclude one person, what is it really going to cost you to invite this one extra person just so she doesn't feel like she's the only one that's not invited, unless it was something that happened that was horrific, you know, like a real disloyal, disrespectful. And some of this stuff is really not nice that the friend did

to her so I could I could see that. My feeling is throw her the invite just so she's not the only person in the group that's not included in a big event like a wedding. And then after that, I think you can skip the brunches and all the little nitty gritty parts of it. Right. Well, I think in this case, the wedding has become now the outlet for saying what she really feels. But she's saying this in two years. Like she could, on the other hand, not wait two years to make her statement. And confront this person now. Do you know what I mean? But it doesn't sound

it sounds like she doesn't think it's worth it. To me it sounds like she's kind of like I don't want to rock the boat for no reason. Right. But I don't really like this person. Right. And like you're saying, maybe she's fantasizing, I think,

because the wedding is so far away, she's fantasizing about using the wedding as an opportunity to express that she's not happy with this girl and she no longer wants to be friends with her. Right. And I just think like two years long, time to wait if that's your true feeling. But again, if the other person's on the same page,

it can be a little easier. Totally. I think why not the next time when she does an action, like she's saying, if it's about the action, if it's about something that is annoying you or something mean-spirited, next time she does something mean-spirited, call her out. It's a little bit of a more mature way to me of like dealing with this instead of kind of waiting to like weaponize your wedding. And also like, who wants to think about on your wedding? And also like, who wants to think about on your wedding about like the anxiety that you'd have about like is she find out that she's not invited is she mad at me like is she going to be talking to the other friends about me like totally sounds like a little more dramatic than it would have to be we're as opposed to if you're all

doing a group trip and she does something rude to you or something leave down that'd be a great opportunity to be like why do you keep doing these kinds of things to me like it feels very mean and hurts my feelings totally yeah i think i mean communication is always the first best step. And there's a potential that maybe they would have a conversation that might be healing in some way and they could, you know, she could feel better about it afterwards. It does see, I mean, the way she describes some of this does seem like maybe this was intentional, like leaving her out and planning the seats on the flight while she was, you know, somewhere else or one while she was showering, the other one left her while she was in the restroom. Like I think

maybe there is something that this other person, she's also perhaps trying to passive-aggressively express something. It's maybe, I don't know. Communication, I think, like you said, would be the best first step. And especially if she gives her another reason, like you said, and then at that point, then you'll see which direction it takes. Either it'll be healing and you can kind of tolerate her, you know, in big groups. This is even an issue of her getting together alone. I don't even think that's part of the conversation. It's just the wedding thing, which is far away. And like you said, I think it's just a way for her to fantasize removing this person from the friendship. Right. And I mean, weddings are kind of the last obligatory large. Right. After that, you probably never

have to see her again if you don't want to. Yeah. When all that's done. But I just think when you, when you kind of like save up resentments and then use a wedding to like, and you, I think you see this a lot with family dynamics, like, who's going to walk me down the aisle? Who's going to give a speech. And then you use the wedding as like a way to like, again, draw a line in the sand. It creates a lot more drama around the wedding. Again, this person isn't even getting married. It was like a big Jewish mother thing about like who's sitting near the band at the bat mitzvah. Right. They put me and they put this person. Put me here. Right. They put this person here and they put that person there. And it was like,

I think in the old days, it was like, where you sat someone at the wedding, was like an expression of your feelings towards them. So it's interesting how these big events can be, which is why sometimes they end up sort of disastrous, because it's like a big passive, aggressive playing field where you could just get all. You have the power. You're planning the party.

I'm going to get it all out. That's what I'm saying. And then like, then it becomes this huge dramatic thing where it's like, oh, she didn't invite her. Which now, like, what's going to happen next? Like she doesn't get the invitation. Then it's like all this drama. leading up to it or she messages you or she's kind of like, because not inviting someone to

your wedding is a huge line to be drawn in the sand. Or, you know, for some people not making someone a bridesmaids, not choosing them as the maid of honor. Like these are all like, in some ways it's like they are stupid, but also they're not stupid because they are kind of wedding forces you to like rank the importance of people in your life. Totally. Totally. And again, I'll put it out there for people, you don't have to do that if you don't want to. You know, like there's no rules that you have to pick bridesmaids and maid of honor and all this stuff. If you don't want to do that and you think it's going to cause drama or be hurtful, you could just have everybody there and pick a few people to give speeches or whatever it is that you want to do. So sometimes I think people feel like they

have to do this and it's all optional. Totally. You should do whatever feels like the most natural. Like if there's an obvious choice for like, oh, I very obvious to me that these are the people that I want as brides me. Or it's very obvious that my only sister would be my maid of honor. Then like I think that that makes sense. But if it feels like stressful, then just don't do it. You don't actually have to do it like you said. Totally. Or even just thinking outside the box, maybe this is a conversation to have on Betch's brides.

But like, you know, if you want to give someone, let them wear the dress that's in the color scheme. and then your pictures look great because there's more people at the party that are, you know, and in with the color scheme. It's kind of decorative for your event. And it makes them feel included, but you don't necessarily have to have a 20 minute procession of all of your friends walking down the aisle. Like just thinking outside the box of how to include somebody and make them feel special without necessarily doing something that's going to affect the size of your bridal party.

And you're trying to make them, you're going out of your way to make them feel unspecial. You've been thinking about. How sweet it's going to be to make them feel unspecial for years. Totally. The long game. And we are back and ready to play our triggered segment. But before we get into that, I want to introduce our podcast first ever guests. We've never had guests before.

We're so excited to have them. They have an amazing, amazing podcast. It's called Almost 30, which they started in their 20s, now in their 30s. And it's such a good show. If you guys haven't listened, check it out. And if you're already fans, you're going to be even more excited to hear them today. we have Krista Williams and Limsy SimSick who are here with us today. Welcome, guys. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. I'm so excited to be here with you guys and I'm so excited about the new show.

Thank you. Yeah, I love your show. I feel like there's so much like of a similar vibe of like exploring, you know, yourself and your own personal growth and the things that hold us back. So I feel like our audiences definitely will have a similar sense of like loving what you guys do. And what we wanted to talk about today, was you guys talk about a lot the sacredness of being single. And Naomi, I'll let you kind of talk about what you've seen in with your patients and therapy about this topic. Because I know it was something I really struggled with. I'm married now, but I was single like for the majority of my 20s and had a lot of issues with it. I would feel, but I would say a lot of discomfort with being single. So Naomi, do you want to talk to like what you kind of experience with your with your patients? Sure. I was so excited to have you two on because it is something that I think it's a whole societal problem. And we talked, Jordana, last, I think it was our last recording that we did about how all these major life events are really around finding a partner and getting married and having children and all these celebrations. And there's not a lot of celebrations for people that got a promotion or things that are just individual accomplishments. So I think that part of society makes it difficult for people to ease into their,

find that sacredness of being single. And I love just that terminology. So I really wanted to pick your brains in terms of what that's like because I talk to a lot of women and men, but I will say women more, probably because of all the societal pressures that have a really hard time finding peace in that and finding there's like this major fear of I'm never going to meet my person. I'm going to be behind the timeline of when you have to meet your person to, you know, to live your dream. So I would love to hear what you guys have to say. So I can bring it back

and help my patience with it. So help me, help everybody. Yeah, it's a season that changed my life. And I don't say that lightly. I was single for seven years. Those seven years were about 25-6 to 32-33. I hope I did the math right. But I resisted it for so long. I entered into my single season not knowing that I would be single for that long and immediately started serial dating. I was sleeping with a lot of people. I was drinking a lot. I was partying. I was really numbing out in order to not feel what I was feeling, which was deep grief over a breakup. that I had with who I thought I would marry. I was dealing with the shame and guilt I had around cheating on this person. And I really, I didn't find reprieve or find peace until about halfway

through my single season. And I think I got to that point because I got so tired of searching outside of myself for the answers, for the person, for the validation, for the peace, for the happiness. And I started to spend time with myself kind of forcefully. I was like, you know what, Lynn's like, you're not going out this Friday night. We're going to cook. We're going to stay in. And you're really going to start dating yourself because what you're doing isn't working. And it started this incredible awakening of sorts where I, I just like touched the softness within myself that I loved and I had compassion for. And I really understand. understood was the essence of who someone eventually would love to. But I had to love it myself first.

So I would take solo trips. I really got into meditation and my journaling practice and just really enjoying my life. Because I find that a lot of women who are single right now and are searching for the one are not enjoying their lives. They're kind of putting it on hold until they meet the person and I realized that me in my happiness in being as present as possible was so magnetic and so attractive and so I got to the point where I was like I think I'm good by myself I'm actually good like if this is it I'm happy and that's kind of when it ended up happening where I met the person that I'm engaged to now and it's yeah it's just it's so much about the journey it back to self and it will truly change your life if you choose it. That's amazing. I feel like

that's what you like in your mind of like the most ideal setting of being single that you could get to. That's kind of where you want to be. But I think it's so many people struggle with it. And also I think another thing that plays into it when you're feeling that way, when you're feeling uncomfortable being by yourself or, you know, just constantly worrying about if you're going to meet someone is the sense of like is my time running out or like it's because women you know unfairly have this sense of okay like I want to have a family I want to like also I want to be in the same stages as my friends and I want to get there but then you have this fear of what if I I don't get it or what if I get it too late and then I you know there's like the the biological clock which is always

this thing in the back of your head did you ever have moments of that even in your state of you know feeling like you were like loving yourself and being single? Yes, for sure. Yeah, I definitely felt like I was kind of losing time. I would go into every grocery store and like prepare to meet my person and like try to anticipate that because I did feel the pressure. I did feel like, wow, I thought I was going to be married at 27, have kids by 30 and get this show on the road. But God is hilarious and had better plans. You know, Krista and I, in that seven-year period or six years, built almost 30. you know it was something that I was meant to pour into and I'm sure you know I'm curious

chrys like how you feel about that biological clock with like just our lives and what we do and just how it's kind of changing you know I feel like some women are putting that off for career and but it doesn't go away I do think it is absolutely like on a cellular level something that we feel and shouldn't feel shame or unfeeling yeah I feel like with so many people in our community and the women that we work with and the women we support, it's like just finding these ways to look outside of ourselves and to put more pressure on ourselves and our lives. And someone, you know, I got married last May.

So I've been married for a year. And what I've also realized is that we have all this pressure to be married, to find the person. And the pressure just sort of continues unless we are mindful of how we're living our lives. So I could essentially be right now like, okay, when are we going to have kids? When are we going to be in a house? When are we going to move, get ourselves? second house, you know, it's the if then mentality. And we always have to be mindful when we're in that.

And I was someone that did that for so long. If I don't find my purpose, I'm not going to be happy. If I'm not, you know, doing what I love all the time, I'm not going to be happy. And that sort of mindset can really filter out. And, you know, being someone that's married now, it's like, yes, it is an effort. You're like, I want to find that person. But life doesn't end when you find the person. And then when you find the person you have to work on the relationship and maintain trust and intimacy and, you know, the work really just begins actually when you find the person. It's not like you find the person and you can just like relax and like life is all good. And, you know, no more problems exist in the world. It's like you have to prepare yourself and be ready and enjoy obviously that time together with the love of your life, hopefully. But there is more work to be done once you get in a relationship. So it's not like smooth sailing forever. That's a great point. Yeah. And I talk to a lot of people about that just in terms of trying to accept acceptance of whatever is happening right now. Because when you're constantly looking for the next thing, all the way to the point where you're like, okay, you know, where, which retirement home am I going

in? And do I have friends there? And are my kids coming to visit me? And Sophie's kids are visiting her three times a week? And my kids are only visiting me once a week. And, you know, you could do it for the rest of your entire life, do this thing where you want something different than whatever it is that you have. So I would love, you know, I think that you're both really good role models because I, oh, sometimes I'll have patients do an exercise where I'll say, visualize that person that embodies what it is that you're looking to be, like that friend that just has the confidence, that friend that can accept what life is throwing, that can accept being single or can accept, you know, whatever's going on. And I'll have them sort of just visualize

that person. But I feel like a lot of people have trouble finding that because sometimes in friend groups, there's almost this contagious when you're all talking about the same things. And one person's, you know, FOMO, like if I don't go out on Saturday night, she's going to meet her person and I'm going to be home watching Netflix and I'm not going to meet my person. And there's this contagious kind of anxiety, rush, not acceptance things. So I would love to have, you know, I think it's great that you can be sort of a role model for, you know, maybe in the beginning from age 25, you know, whenever you started those first few years when you were fighting it, you were in it, but then made that transformation. Maybe you could speak a little bit more. I saw something that you talk about how discipline,

having discipline in your life can kind of lead to some of those changes. So I don't know if that played a part in kind of how you make that switch. We talk a lot about, or I talk a lot about meditation and using that as a way to find acceptance. But maybe you can talk about like the nitty gritty bits of how you made that switch. You know, I know you talked about like spending time with yourself, but in that moment when you're thinking, you know, I'm going to be left behind or I'm low, I'm so lonely, even just like I'm so lonely I want someone to be intimate with physically and emotionally.

Like what were the, I know it's a tough question, but what are the little things? steps that you kind of can take to get there. Yeah, and I think that key word is like the little steps. Like they really do compound over time. I had a vision at one point of witnessing myself in these small practices and moments where I would either redirect my thoughts or I would sit down to journal or I would just cry. And I saw myself and I saw or felt really like the importance of it. I don't know what that.

It was kind of like a dream. It was like a weird state. but I say that because, you know, it is a lifelong relationship you have with yourself, with your soul. We talk a little woo-woo on almost 30, so the self, like that inner knowing. And so the ways in which that I've gotten to know her and grown closer to her and just really trusted her more is through things like when I feel that intense emotion of like, oh my God, when am I going to meet him?

That grief, I would cry. Like I felt it so deeply, I would just be like on the floor crying and I would let her cry. It's important to let it rip because these emotions are impermanent. And also to shift the way I'm really judging or feeling about the emotion. The truth is the emotion is telling me that, wow, I have the capacity to feel this deeply. How beautiful is that going to be in my future relationship? Or perhaps I'm feeling this deeply because he's close. You know, so there were ways in which in those moments where I felt like the tsunami of emotion

was taking me over that I could let it rip, pause, take a breath and be like, wait, what's the truth here? The truth is I'm okay. The truth is I'm on my path. And the truth is that, wow, this is a depth of emotion that like I'm really thankful to be feeling. Other practices involve having conversations with friends. who were in relationships that I really admired.

And I find a lot of women are avoidant of being around people who are in healthy or relationships that they would like to be in or talking to people who are in relationships because it makes them jealous or it makes them feel a type of way, which I can completely understand. And I find that, you know, my true self really wanted to absorb and get close to what it feels like to be in those types of relationships. I would ask questions and just really observe and note like, huh, I love that. I love that they talk to each other like that. Or, you know what, actually, that rubs me the wrong way. And I would

just kind of orient myself so that I had confidence going into the next relationship, confidence in knowing what I want and what I don't want. And again, this is really the relationship with self that was building over time because when this person comes into your orbit, you're going to be having like this double team collaboration between you and your inner self, your soul, where you're like, yeah, actually that feels really good. I want to take the next right action to get maybe closer to this person, talk to this person. It's not going to be the mind. It's going to be more so in your heart. It's interesting that you say, like leaning into people who are in good relationships because I really think there was probably a lot of good work done just by not avoiding that, you know, just by

forcing yourself to be in that and like tolerate that because a lot of times it can turn into like poisonous jealousy and not being happy for your friends which I get I'm not saying that that's like means you're an evil person if you're not happy for your friends or you have moments of jealousy but I think exposing yourself to that and forcing yourself to kind of sit and that was probably helpful I could imagine yeah and I will say I remember you know the idea where you were talking about when you're with a group of friends and then you know everyone's like when am I going to get engaged and there's kind of this like consciousness around it. I remember my husband saying to me one time, we were like having an argument and I was like, when are you going to propose? And we were together for

eight or so years before he proposed. And I've never been stressed to get married. I've never felt like in a rush. I've always felt like it would happen at the perfect time. But I found myself being like, when are you going to propose? And he's like, do you even care? Like you've never cared or like been stressed? And I would be like, who's talking? Like I would even be like, I don't, I don't know who's like talking right now. Like I would just get in this mode of being like, what about this? And he's like, are you possessed by like the engagement like demon? I'm like, I don't even know what's going on. So it's something that I think we all really tap into as women. And it is something that I felt when my friends were getting engaged. I was like, does he love me if he's not proposing or if we're

not doing this thing? But something that was really helpful for me. And I don't know if you do this in your practice, Naomi, is internal family systems. So really acclimating myself and really getting to know all the parts of me. So say you're someone that is not with your partner, wants to find your person, and is like, I think I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life. I'm unlovable. That is not the real you. That is just an aspect of you. Because when we think about the grandioseness of our soul or our higher self or who we are, that part of us is really just like an aspect of who we are. So I really got to know those different parts of me that were like, hey, when am I going to get engaged? Like, I'm afraid of this or I'm afraid of that.

And by unblending them from me and seeing them as like an aspect of me, I was able to really work with that and learn to love all parts of me, even those scared parts of me, even those like crazy parts of me, even those emotional parts of me, whatever parts of me there were that were coming up through the process of engagement or marriage or even being single. By getting to know them, I could love them or I could understand them and know that like I was big enough or I was strong enough as the higher self or the capital S self. type person to work with that energy and, like, know that that's not me. It's just an experience I'm having. I think that's such a interesting, great way to look at things because my other thing that I was going to ask you guys about, what you kind of just answered was the idea that, you know, you can be happy being single while also want to be in a relationship and how you sort of, how do you make sense of that in your mind? Because I remember kind of having that feeling, too, of like, I'm not fully happy because I do want to meet someone.

I don't want to be continuing on this exact path. But I also want to not need someone, need to meet someone to be happy. So it's like you're fighting in your own head. But what you just said is sort of like, I think the best way to make sense of it is like there are parts of me that wants to be like in a relationship in this way. And then there's parts of me that love my single life and love being with myself and being alone with myself and enjoy my own company. Yeah. I think it's, yeah, with that, it's like, I think sometimes we get scared like, oh, if I like being single too much, then I'm never going to find the person. Because I like, it's like, it's such a funny thing how we always in our mind, our mind is really smart at preventing us from being happy and preventing us from being content.

And that's the ego mind that really doesn't want us to feel content or happy because then it has no job essentially. So it's just so funny how it's like, oh, if I get happy being alone, then I'm going to be alone forever. or if I get happy doing this, then this bad thing will happen. And I think it's really normal. But what I've seen is the people in my life and Lindsay is such a perfect example that have learned to accept who they are or love themselves alone or single. There is like a magnetism and there is a piece that you can tell in their soul and their heart.

And then they usually magnetize their partner. It's like that oxymoron of most of my friends being like, yep, the day that I said, you know what, I might be single forever. and I'm done looking is like the day that their partner came back into their life or something essentially happened that gave them that, you know, divine relationship that they were looking for. But I totally hear you. That's so real. And I think the aspects of being single, it's like, what are the aspects of being single that you love? What are the aspects of being in a relationship that you love? All of those things are going to live within both scenarios. So especially in

relationship. Like my fiance and I like definitely have carved out time where we go and do our own thing like on a Saturday for a few hours knowing that the goal is like to have a little bit of alone time, to be in our own energy to kind of, you know, check in with our own thoughts because we're living together. It's a lot of overlap. And so I love that like the aspects of my single time, which was like, I love being alone. I love, you know, I kind of love doing my thing. I bring into the relationship. And same with if you're single, you know, the aspects of a relationship that you love or desire, let's bring that into the relationship with yourself or maybe with your friends or family,

like really being able to bring those aspects and alchemize into your present situation, I think is really, really key because then we're not coming from a place of lack of like, I don't have this yet. Like we do. But there's kind of these conditions we place around it. So it's like, but I have to be in a relationship in order to feel that. It makes me think you can be in the same exact situation alone on a walk and feel so differently about it.

If you're alone on a walk because you're getting finally a break from your fiance, it feels like, oh my gosh, I'm so free. I don't have to watch this. I don't have to think about that. If you're alone on a walk with only your dog waiting for you when you get back, it feels so different. But if you can really come to that moment, just what it is. it's one foot in front of another, the breeze on your face, you're still living that same moments.

And sometimes it's hard because the fear of never having it is so pervasive. And that's just in your mind. That's not a reality. That fear is a virtual reality. So I really like that idea of, you know, you have both things on both sides. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like you said in a previous episode, like, you're not your feelings necessarily. Like, that's not, doesn't, just because you're feeling them doesn't mean it's true. I had to learn that, you know, in my life. I remember I've, I can, I have such an emotional being. And I remember thinking in high school, I'm like, I am a piece of work because I just would be like, up, down, all around, just all over the place. And it would almost scare me. And then I learned to meditate and learn mindfulness and, you know,

became my spiritual path. And I was like, oh, wow, you know, these emotions. And I was like, oh, wow, you know, these emotions are temporary. And sometimes they're not mine. Sometimes they're my husband. Sometimes they're my best friends. Sometimes they're the person around me. Sometimes it's my period. Sometimes it's the moon. Sometimes it's what I ate. Sometimes it's what I slept, what I'm doing to sleep. So how can I make sure to like understand and be kind to myself so I can note who again, when I'm talking about the internal family system is like, who am I? I am like calm, stable peace. And then who is like this aspect of me or what is this aspect of me? because we can't trust all of our feelings. You know, the person or part of us that's like,

I'm going to be single forever and no one's ever going to love me and I'm never going to have a family is like an aspect. It's not the truth. Like that's again, the virtual reality that you're talking about. That's not truth. We cannot found that in any truth at all. So how can we learn to trust just the peace of ourselves

and really get to know the piece of ourselves rather than these like anxious thoughts or parts of us? I think the listeners are going to be very happy with that assessment. I think it's a great explanation of it. And it relates to a lot of the stuff we've been saying, but I think it takes it even further. I do want to get to our game. So we want to play with you guys.

I'm very interested to hear how you rank these triggers. What do you guys say about all these scenarios? Let's do it. Game time, baby. I'm going to read you a scenario. You can let me know how triggering you think it should be on a scale of one to 10 of one. actually not a really a big deal at all or 10, like anyone on this earth would be triggered by this, I would say. Okay. So my ex-boyfriend from high school, early college, who I dated for three

years, recently got engaged. We are 27 now, so it's been a number of years, but I still follow him on Instagram as well as many friends and family members as well. My mom commented, congratulations on his engagement post. I was like, excuse me, but is that really necessary? But I felt petty, so I didn't say anything to her at first, but then I had multiple friends and siblings mentioned that they saw her comment. And I was like, you know what? I'm saying something. I casually said, mom, was that comment really necessary? It's my ex-boyfriend. It's weird that you did that. She didn't really understand why it bothered me. I think she just said something along the lines of, but aren't you happy for him? And it's just an Instagram comment. I wasn't exactly upset with her, but I thought it was just so eye-roll-inducing and such a classic example of baby boomers, not understanding what actions on social media mean. It's like when my dad comes to my apartment and doesn't understand why New Yorkers don't say hi to each other in the elevator. How triggered should I have been? By the way, I would have just been totally fine with her just liking the picture. And also, I'm single, by the way. What if she was like, I'm married? I'm married and I have a family. I mean, my mom comments all the time and thinks it's a private message. So maybe that was the deal. But I totally think it's legitimate. That would totally trigger me. And it is never easy to see an ex get married. I'm sorry. It is very rarely something that initially you're like, oh, yay. I only felt that way like 10 years out to be completely honest. There's just something. I feel like everyone is in your life for, reason and them not choosing or not being with you touches that little part of you that is

younger and still kind of like reacts from that place of like 25 in my case and yeah it hurts and I totally get it and I think being straight up with mom is the way to go and really sharing like this is how it made me feel rather than don't do this that's stupid it's just like you're weird instead of saying you're yeah no I totally agree with that that would I think the best case scenario with an ex getting married, the best case is like neutrality is like not being annoyed. To be happy for an ex getting married, I feel like you would have had to have really done a number on them. That's exactly. Thank God I didn't ruin their whole life.

Yeah. Like, yeah, unless you were like the really bad one in the in the relationship. I guess I could see that. But yeah, I think this is pretty triggering. If my, if our mom did that, I think I would give it like. Would your guys mom do that? possibly maybe yes i think probably but like almost too annoy us i don't know maybe yeah it to like troll you guys be like wow you guys she looks better what's just kind of like going on the big deal yeah it did sound almost like it was a test like are you really over it you know aren't you happy i'm sure i'm sure this person's mother's not evil but i could cross my mind this idea of like well why does this bother you it's also when it's your mom it's like this other

sense of like loyalty? Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. I'm like, but then you're like back in like high school. You're like, aren't you on my side mom? Like they're still together. But I thought about that. I'm like, wouldn't a mom be like, oh, just thinking this could potentially bother her.

Like they're not together. And that's like when she said the response of her mom, I was like, oh my gosh, is this my mom? Because it's that like, what? You know, like, aren't you over it? Right. What? Just like a total.

Yeah. Total disregard. Total like gaslight of your feelings. You're like, what? I don't just no regard for how you might potentially feel in that situation. And it did remind me of boomers using social media where it's like, I saw this thing. Therefore, I must comment. It's like they think that everyone can see them online or everyone's going to know if they completely disregard.

It's so rude if I don't say something here. Yes. It's like they can actually physically see them and it might be ignoring. I'm like, see this must comment is sort of what I thought about. But yeah, I think it's like, hey, mom, just this isn't how we do things. But I completely understand why she would be annoyed. And then to have the friends and everyone else kind of see and comment is like, you know. I got to make sure my mom's not following my exes.

My mom, like, text my ex all the time. She's like, tries to be like a sports mom. And she's like, yeah, how about them, you know, dull things or just like, we'll like talk about like, to like sports to them. It's like very weird. That's so funny. Gosh, that is. Do you care?

No, not. at all. I think it's like, I love when my exes get engaged because I'm like, wow, what's this world like? Like, what's this world like that you're in? Because, you know, when you're in a relationship, most of the time you're like, this is my person. We will be to, you know, you kind of envision this world. And again, you create this virtual reality of your life. And when push comes to shove and your lives end up separating, it's so wild to think that there could be another timeline that you guys, that was you. I don't know it. It like trips me out. I agree. There's, There's almost something, it can be healing, I think, in some way to realize, like, I thought

I was so in this bubble of this thing for so long that now that it's taken this completely different turn and I'm neutral about it, like you said, anything that's bothering me right now might fall away into the abyss of that at any given point. So there's like, I think, a little bit of a freedom and, okay, that was something I was so focused on or really thought was a thing for so long. And now it's like, he said it's wild. It's like, poof, it's just a whole different, different world, different life, different turnout than I ever thought.

There's something freeing, I think, about seeing it in that way. That's so true. That's a great point. I would give it a seven. At a ten? Okay. Ten is the most triggering. Ten is the most triggering.

Dang. Maybe it's a six. I don't know. Hey, you do whatever you want to do. I think because, yeah, I would have so much, I have so much relationship or I used to have so much relationship anxiety. If I were single and my mom did that, I think I would just really mess with me. Right where she wants me.

Let's do it. Do you want to read the second one? Yeah, I'll read another one. So in May I had a wedding that I was a bridesmaiden. I invited one of my nursing friends to be my date. I let her know a month and a half in advance and said that it would be out of town an hour away that she wouldn't be by herself except during the reception. She agreed she'd go.

A day before the wedding, I asked if she was still going. again she said yes. The day of the wedding, she texted me and said she was not coming because she's quote unquote been driving a lot all week and was tired. The next day, she drove to her mom's pool party, which is 30 minutes away. She's been my friend through nursing school and maybe that's just that. She's a friend that I had through a phase in my life. I was just irritated because I gave her enough time in advance to plan accordingly and I would never cancel on someone the day of when someone is expecting me to be there. And the fact that the next day she drove to a pool party, should I be triggered?

Thank you both for all you do. What do you guys think? I would say this, it's funny because this one triggers me more because, yeah, this one triggers me more because I think there's like a female relationship thing. And me and Lindsay talk a lot about like female friendships on the podcast. And I think it's such an important part of our lives. And it's such a tricky thing to navigate sometimes. Like my friendships are the best.

They give me so much joy. But there's also that like honesty and integrity part where you're like, is this person going to show up for me the way I show up for them? Are they going to be there for me the way I am for them? And to feel like you're not being supported or you're not being seen or you're not being respected or held in the same way that you would do that for someone is a really big bummer. And it can be really, really heartbreaking. Like I find that to be incredibly heartbreaking.

Although this person I'm sure is like, hey, you know what? I don't know this couple really well. She's going to be gone. She's going to be hanging out with me. I don't really want to go, which makes total sense from my perspective. But to do it on the day of is, you know, kind of a bummer and just not really good communication ethic. But I do think that there should be a conversation where it's like, hey, you said you were coming and you didn't. And you did end up driving and you went somewhere. Like, what was the deal? What was really going on? So you both can come to a place where you have a greater understanding. Because if this person is a real friend, you guys, I'm hopeful, can get over this by having. you know, a real honest talk. It's funny. I didn't even, my initial thought was not even to think about what her friend thought about the day, but that's probably a very accurate assessment of how she thought of like kind of blowing it off.

Like, I don't really want to go. I'm going to, her excuse almost like, it was almost like so bad that it kind of seems accurate. Do you know what I mean? Like she actually just. Yeah, it's like too honest to be honest. She's like, I don't want to drive. It's like, what?

I'm like, say you have COVID. Sometimes you're like, I don't, right. I almost wish you lied so that I wouldn't have to think about. about how annoying this is for me? Like it would be less annoying if I almost thought that you cared enough to make up something that was 100%.

I was like, it was a little bit too honest. It's like, you know what, I'm tired. This doesn't seem interesting. It's like, okay. I feel like this isn't as triggering to me because I'm working on, it should be more triggering, I feel like to me, but I'm working on not just taking note

and kind of creating distance. So like that situation, I would have been like, huh okay note taken they don't really respect like all the chances i've given them to like tell me the truth change the plans communicate properly with me blah blah blah and i'll just take note and create a little distance whereas what christa said i think is a bit more of a conscious approach which is like expressing how it made you feel and kind of taking it from there like providing that opportunity for growth between you and then seeing where it goes but my tendency is to like, I don't know, it like rubs me the wrong way.

I'm already like over it, over that, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, Lindsay's like, oh, well, bye. Another friend. Why do you do this to me? I'm so like, yeah. It sounds like she's ready to write it off. Like, even then the way she talks about the friendship,

it sounds like she's halfway. Render's a friend. Yeah. And this is what, you know what I think, and Krista and I have experienced this, We just did an episode on friendship breakups. And this is like a part of life where I'm not saying that this situation warrants a friendship breakup, but I do believe that as we become more aware of, yeah, what we require in relationship that we don't put up with as much bullshit. And we're not just friends with people by proxy and by like being their roommate for a few years.

Like we really can become a bit more selective and intentional. and I think in doing that and also in just being more of yourself, friendships kind of fall off. And so a friend that is kind of flaky like that, I don't know. I'm just like not down to like really invest a ton of time if that's a consistent thing. Right. I feel like the ways that you both kind of differently handled this was sort of in my mind like I think my debate whenever I feel like something similar happens to me. I'm like, should I confront them and tell them how it made me feel and then like give them an opportunity to explain themselves, or should I just, like, put a note in their file of, like,

you're the kind of person that does this, and I'll remember. And, like, I'll just secretly, you know, like, hold a little resentment. But I also don't care that much because, like, again, I'm not really sure if it's worth getting into. So I think that kind of perfectly displays the debate in my head over most of these scenarios. And I don't know what's best because, you know, some people can't really handle a conversation. And like sometimes with my, if I was to approach, it's like, it's just a little much sometimes. It's like, hey, just let stuff go. So I think there's the part of me that wants to let more things go and really just be like,

huh, this is like how that person is. But if it's a pattern and you want that person in your life, I think a conversation is worthwhile. And then I was thinking about it with this girl. Like, I'm curious how the wedding went, not having a date. I actually think when you're in the wedding party, it might have been better and more fun without a date. because then you could really be there for the bride. You could really just let her rip, not have to worry. Like there might have been that part of her that would be worried about her friend

that didn't know anyone at the wedding anyways, especially when she's in the bridal party. Totally. What came to mind along those lines is I think one of the more triggering things for me would be having to show up and give this lame excuse. If someone asks where she is, like, oh, she didn't come because she didn't feel like driving. I would have been like she's COVID.

or something. Right. Then you're throwing your friend under the bus to someone else and, you know. It's embarrassing for you. Yeah. That's actually, you know what the biggest problem is is that's like a $100 plate at a wedding. That's the issue is that that was that cost money.

And that's, I think, where the anger comes from, not even about the money, but just about like the idea that the other person wouldn't think of anyone in the scenario besides themselves. And it's almost like, is that a personality? trait because I don't want to fight with you about something that's just a personality trait because that's not worth it. But if it's like, if it's circumstantial, I can tell you how I made it you feel. But if you're just kind of someone who doesn't care about how your actions affect anyone

else, then I can kind of like, like Lindsay said. That would be an amazing text just to be like, is this a personality trait or like, just let me know. There's something in your situation. I don't know. I would be very annoyed about this one. If I saw the picture from the pool party, I would. I would be at an eight, I think. Yeah, I think I'd be at a, I think I'd be at a seven.

That one would trigger me. I'm four right now. Yeah. She's never, Lindsay's written her all. She's dead to Lindsay. You guys live in L.A., right? Yeah, we do.

I'm in New York. Oh, you're in New York. Okay. I was going to make it like in L.A. You guys let things go or not like, like cynical and angry. But I guess you're in New York that doesn't really click. Do we have time for another one? Yeah, let's do one more.

Let's do it. My brother, who is two years older than me and someone that I've always been close to, got married one year ago. Although my sister-in-law, who is my age, 25, is overall a decent person. She recently stirred up quite a bit of drama on my 25th birthday, and I have had a hard time getting over it. A couple of hours before my friends were supposed to arrive for my birthday pregame, my brother and sister-in-law called to ask if they could sleep over as their air

conditioning was not working. I explained that I was pretty stressed about getting ready for the pregame and that since I live in a tiny one bedroom, one bathroom apartment, I really would rather not have them stay over. My brother said that he totally understood and that it was no problem while my sister-in-law remained silent. The night after my party, my mom called to say that my brother and sister-in-law stopped by the burbs to see her that day and that throughout their very long visit, my sister-in-law could not stop talking about how rude and inconsiderate it was of me to turn down their request to stay at my apartment. according to my mom, while my brother tried to defend me and explained that it wasn't really a big deal, my sister-in-law continued to bash me and went as far as saying that I can really act like a bitch sometimes and that my brother shouldn't help me with anything ever, like replacing my bike tires, which my brother gladly volunteered to do for me months ago. My mom said that she felt awful hearing her spew so much

hate and that my brother also felt uncomfortable. I personally think she crossed a line and know that my brother wouldn't dare say anything bad about my sister-in-law's siblings, as he is self-aware enough to know that that is inappropriate. She clearly overreacted slash over exaggerated and now one month later we act as if nothing ever happened. I know I should just put it in the past, but it still boils my blood knowing that she was essentially shit talking me to my own family after I've been nothing but kind to her since the moment I met her. How triggered should I be? I think triggered is an interesting word to describe this. I think it's more so it's layered. It's like confusion as to why your brother is with someone who would kind of react in that way.

But also I think, you know, if you're just making it between you and the sister-in-law, it's like hurt. That's like really hurtful to talk to other family members who are her blood and call her the B word. I think that's incredibly disrespectful and deserves like a very direct conversation just one-on-one. I don't think there should be anyone else, well, maybe listening in just forever, for backing up purposes, but just a one-on-one, like, direct conversation when you're out of the intense emotion. So if you can come to it a bit more neutrally where it's like, man, she must

really be either unhappy, hurting, whatever, to call me a bitch after all that, you know, I've been nice to her. I think you can come to that conversation and just say, you know, I would be surprised if you wouldn't think that my family would tell me what you said about me during that visit. And I just wanted to talk about that day and just how hurtful that was to hear that and how we can kind of move on from here because I'm really having a hard time.

And the fact that she's older is a little disturbing. It's weird for me for this one, she's done. Like this is where in this situation, I'm like, oh, you're done. You're off the island. Because there's so many levels to the inappropriateness and the unself-awareness, like not being aware. There's, you know, asking the day of.

there's asking someone who lives in a studio, asking someone on their birthday. So that's three things. And ask on the birthday and ask when they live in a studio and ask on the day of. And then there's talking shit to the mom. Right. Her mom.

Like if you're going to talk shit to someone, talk shit to your own mom, right? You need friends. If you are talking shit to their mom, you need friends that you can process with and that you can vent to and you can say whatever. And it's fine if you have feelings about the situation that's completely,

fine for you to express or be in whatever energy, but I would never talk bad about someone's family, even to the husband. I'd have a really hard time being like, hey, your sister's this or your sister's that or to the mom too, because there's so much unconscious things happening going on with that, but it makes the brother feel uncomfortable. It makes him feel like yes, to pick sides. It makes the mom uncomfortable. You're like bringing the energy down. It's very, that would be like done for me, to be honest. Well, it's so hard because she's your sister-in-law. So it's like, I'm good unless they're divorced like where is she where is she going right that's the tough thing with that that's what makes it so much worse when it's these family things too and it creates like then all

these layers so let's even if she says something to her then she throws her mom under the bus for telling her and then the sister-in-law's also met at the mom and then it creates this like I mean if the sister-in-law's mad at the mom food right that is illusion yeah I know yeah 100% and not to pour fuel on this fire but my thought was when I read this was this seems like this went on too long that the mother or the brother should have ended this conversation prior to the whole day of her spewing. Like I would be a little bit annoyed that they allowed her so much airspace. Yeah. Personally. Because what happens is once you open that door and she feels like there's space for her to do that, now there's going to, she's going to realize

that there's going to, that they're a sounding board for her to complain about their daughter slash sister. So I think that that there should be some conversation. It doesn't have to be how dare you this, but just can you explain to me how that went down that she was able to do that for like two hours or however long they were hanging out? Like what was that conversation like? And I feel really hurt that you didn't end it sooner because it gives her the wrong idea that you were open to receiving all of that from her. So true. And it makes me think about like the power dynamic, whether this person within her own marriage is like kind of intense and overpowering or whether she's just overpowering in general and just kind of like steamrolls any situation.

I'm just curious, but I completely agree. There should not have been that much of our time. Naomi, what would be a good way to stop that? You know, because I'm actually trying to think of what kind of verbiage or language I could use in that situation. If I was the husband, if I was the brother, and that was the wife or the mom, like, what could they say to her to make that stop? Yeah, I think a good way, and this is what I do often, and I recommend to a lot of people, is just literally, if it's someone that loves you and that you're

in a close relationship with, just literally telling them how you feel, like physically feel in that moment. I am starting to feel really tense listening to you. I'm starting to feel nauseous. I'm starting to feel like my heart rate is rising as I hear you saying this. And that might be a good indicator without having to say anything else for them to realize, like, this is upsetting me. Or you could just simply say, I'm starting to get really upset by this conversation or, you know, something like that. And if she wants to leave space to say, I was really disappointed that your sister didn't let us stay, that's fine.

That's okay. I was really disappointed that your sister didn't let us stay there. But the ranting and going on and using, like you said, like bad words about her like that, you could reach a point where he at first or the mother would say, say, this conversation is really upsetting me and, you know, kind of let them know right off the bat. Like, I'm not just open to, this isn't like we're having a blast here. Like, right. You know.

Yeah. That's a great term to use that front of certain people in our family. Right. I think sometimes if somebody loves you and they realize, like, I'm literally starting to feel like nauseous because of the way that you're interacting or like I'm starting to, you know, and it helps you kind of turn into your body. which is something I talk about a lot when you're dealing with emotions is realizing that they really live in your body. So starting to say, you know, just explaining how you feel physically is a way of saying like, you're affecting me negatively with your words. Without escalating it. Right. Which is probably like, I mean, I guess it's her husband's issue to deal with her for like their lives in terms of like how that's how she's reacting. But like I think it's especially probably helpful if you're.

like the mother-in-law because like she doesn't have to even be the one to like get involved in that she could just say like you're not going to do this around me right yeah and that's an option too you could just like set the boundary or just say this conversation is really upsetting me or i don't feel okay letting you talk about my daughter like this any of those i think are okay too sometimes some people really and it sounds like this person might be one of them that does respond to a little bit more of a firm approach, which is I'm not going to let you speak about my daughter like this. Like some people would need that before they'll back off. Whereas if you say this conversation is really like it's actually making me nauseous or it's actually starting to make my heart rate go

up. Some people might just not even respond to that because it's not enough of a boundary. Do you think she should talk to the sister-in-law directly or should she talk to her brother is my question? Because I'm kind of like, if the sister-in-law is truly like as awful as she makes her seem, I'm kind of like maybe that wouldn't even work. Like maybe she should get the brother to do something with it. He is involved. It did happen around him. And she could tell him because it sounds like he really loves her and cares about her. She said they're close that, you know, he could and he knows the girlfriend well or the wife well. I don't know. That was my other thought. But maybe you're, I mean, I wasn't sure like should she go right to the source or should she go to the brother. I feel like sometimes the brothers are kind of useless. Like it's kind of like they lack the skills to like see the nuance or like understand the energetics of like two women kind of going into a conversation. Like they're a little bit too like surface and kind of direct. They're like, well, you know, she said this or she said this. And it's kind of hard because you're like, how do we see and understand the nuance of the

situation when we as women are really all about that? So I think there could be depending on his like ability to be in his own truth and to to sort of discern what's his and what's hers and then what's hers because if he's able to be like, you know, this is actually how I feel. This is what we said and this is sort of what we're going to do moving forward. I think that's great. But it might be good to just clear the air with the in-law, the sister-in-law, just because you'll be able to get directly to the source and really see where the situation is at and really see where she's at and really just tell her directly rather than I think it seems like with her type of energy, if you talk to the brother, she might feel like,

oh, she talked to you, but she didn't talk to me. It might sort of continue to create an energy of this weird triangulation that's sort of happening with the family. Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot more potential to actually repair if she goes directly to the sister-in-law versus if she goes to the brother-in-law and he does it. The best case scenario is they have like a little argument and she says, fine, I won't do that again or whatever versus an actual conversation where she says, you know, I just felt really, I thought we were family, we really needed you, where she has a place. Look, I think she has a little bit of a point. I know maybe you guys disagree, but I'm kind of like if somebody's AAC doesn't work and it's one

night, maybe she could have just like let them crash and maybe she felt really rejected. It's not easy to ask someone that sometimes. And then she asked and she said, so whatever it is. she has a perspective that she would have an opportunity to actually share that might make her feel a little bit better about the whole thing. So I agree. I think there's the best shot at really fixing this if she went directly to the sister-in-law. The easier thing, I think, would be to let the two of them fight it out and then you can just, you know, sit back and hope that things change. Yeah, you'd probably have the most productive conversation if you did come to the situation with her and you were like,

hey, I know that may have really hurt your feelings when I didn't let you stay. And I can understand why you'd be upset in that situation. Like, I found that if I'm able to come and recognize why someone's upset or even apologize, like, you know, I'm so sorry that I couldn't have you, the quality of conversations from repair are literally four billion times better than if you're like, hey, you really hurt my feelings, which is a truth and you're taking ownership. But if you can see the other person's side at the beginning of a conversation, it's widely. how much more productive and harmonious a conversation can be. Totally agree.

Definitely softens the whole thing. It makes it less antagonistic in any scenario. But that's it for our triggered scenarios. Guys, thank you so much for coming on the show. We had such a good time. I mean, I can speak for myself. I think I could speak for you, Naomi. This was such a good conversation.

Krista Lindsay, if you guys haven't listened to the Almost 30 podcast, please listen now. You're going to love it. If you love this show, you're going to love their show. And where can they find the podcast? Where can they find you guys? Oh, we've had such a blast. This was so fun. We can't wait to have more of these.

Totally. So many more conversations that I have in mind for you guys after listening. Same. Ditto. Almost 30 podcasts on Instagram. And you can learn more about Almost 30. We have courses and programs and membership, all the things at almost 30. com.

And I'm on Instagram at Lindsay Sinsic. And I'm at it's Krista with a K. Awesome. Thank you guys again. And we will see you next week. All right. That's our time. Great work today.

Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Picoe, and Rebecca Salis McHaw. Editing by Missileo Perez. Yes, Booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com. We'll leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294.