Oversharing - Can You Ever Get Over Political Differences?

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

Today on Oversharing, Naomi humblebrags about the success of her 5th-grade volleyball team, and Jordana looks forward to a drama-free Thanksgiving. Our Overshare email comes from a concerned listener who finds herself politically opposed to her partner. How do you reconcile differing political views? Today’s Betchicist goes out to a mom who made an impossibly tough decision and needs support through the aftermath. Dr. Naomi writes an intention for a Betch dealing with messy roommates. And to close things out, we’re feeling triggered by body-shaming boyfriends and being forced into the fifth wheel. Check out our latest promo codes here: https://betches.com/promos Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. How's it going?

It looks like you went to a little volleyball tournament. I love how involved in school activities you are. Yes. Yes, you are now talking to the coach of the, the fifth grade volleyball rec league champions. Wow. Yeah, we did it.

Following in your footsteps, Naomi was a, for those listening, a volleyball champion back in the day. Yeah, I mean, yeah, high school,

we were pretty good. We did well. Rosal on RHS, shout out, anyone out there. We did pretty well. But yeah, this was really fun.

It's, you know, we've been, I've had these girls together for a long time. I love this kind of stuff. Like, you know, coaching specifically girls and kind of giving them the love for the game and how to do something healthy and screenless and really just bond and have fun. So it was really, really fun. We had a whole weekend of playoffs and we came out with the win. So that was a really, a really good time. Would it be as much fun if they were terrible?

We've been terrible. And no, it's not as much fun. It's not as much fun. as much fun, but it's still fun. You know, you always try to find the lesson. So we always do the thing where, you know, we talk about, you know, while we're growing and perseverance. We're just talking this morning about, you know, I don't know if you've heard the studies around grit, the concept of grit. I think I've, did we talk about it on here? It sounds very familiar. We may have. I think I've mentioned it. But, I mean, that's what it comes down to. And that's why sometimes the losing seasons are really good too because the number one predictor for kids and adolescents for adult success is it's not IQ and it's not you know any of these other things that you think

might make up a successful student what college they go to it's it's the it's the when they measure their level of grit which is basically like perseverance and like continuing to work at something even when it's frustrating and hard and so we've been there too We've had, it's funny because I, you know, I'm into sports and the kids do a lot of sports and we have had a lot of losing seasons. So this one was, this was fun. Sweet, sweet win. I'm excited for you. I sent you the pick. It's very cute, right? The girls look so happy. Yeah, I'm proud of Maddie and all of her friends. I'm impressed and I'm jealous. I was also on volleyball in high school and we lost every single game. Wait, you were on the actual volleyball team in high school? I didn't even know that. I was on JV. I am, my freshman year. Aw, that's cute. I'm sorry, I must have been like out of the house. I didn't even know that happened.

Bro, no, it's fine. I was not very good. And then the next year when I tried out and that was the year there were no cuts. So maybe that's why we lost every game. Right. And then the following year, there were cuts and I didn't make the team. Aw. But it was fun.

I had a lot. Actually, it's funny because like I think about like my core group of high school friends and that's actually sort of like where we assembled. I think is on this. I was going to ask if there's anyone that I'm familiar with that was on that volleyball team. Oh, yeah. All of my friends, I think that you can think of, like, we're all on that team. And we clearly weren't there to win because we didn't.

Right. And when you're not winning, you guys probably just had fun and like goofed around and just, you know, used it as like a hangout with balls being thrown around. Exactly. I'm sure, like, the coach was not as thrilled with that. I remember one friend, she was in like the back. and the ball, but we were, again, we weren't really there to, like, win. So the ball comes and she, like, we all, like, watch her. She, like, looks at the ball and she, like, watches it go behind her.

She doesn't even move. And the coach is like, could you at least attempt, like, pretend like you're going to move towards it? That is hard with volleyball. Sometimes, like, if your parents kind of pushing you into it or it's not really your thing, it requires, like, quick reaction time. So if that's not something that is like that you're practicing or that's wired into you, it can be embarrassing like that where you're just like, oh, wait, oh, okay, I was supposed to move point over next.

Right. But your sound like your team was a lot more engaged. They were super engaged. They had so much fun. They were high-fiving each other. Like that's the best thing about volleyball. It's like all the high fives and everyone kind of comes to the middle. Like eventually the official like every time someone does something good, they all run over and like

high five that girl. And eventually the official was like, all right, we can't be high fiving after every single play. But I love watching them have fun. So it was, it was great. Just trying to subdue their, their spirit is. He's like, I got to get out of here. Time's ticking. It's my weekend, right? Yeah, I get it. Well, that's really cute. I'm glad that they got the grit from previous terrible seasons. Yes. Good lesson for the listeners at home. Yeah.

All right. Anything going on with you worth chatting about? Not really. I mean, you're going to be here by the time this episode airs. I'm really excited to have you to be hosting, trying to think of some fun activities. It's going to be great. It's going to be like, I like that we get, you know, because you don't live here anymore, we get like a serious bonding because it's like multiple days.

Yeah, totally. That's what I was telling myself when we moved far away from family was sort of like, okay, we're not going to get to see everyone as often. But when we do, it's going to be like a real sleepover, like wake up in the morning, you know, real bonding versus what we really used to do, which was like meet in the city for dinner or like, you know, have you come over for a few hours for a meal or whatever. And then you go home, which is still great, but it's not the same as one you're like. having a big like a whole bonding experience right i'm going to get up in your business yeah pj you know couch chit-chat early morning coffee stuff i'm looking forward to it yeah it's gonna be great also if you're listening to this episode almost thanksgiving i'm sure fairly tense time for a lot of people i don't know um we in our family we always did thanksgiving with our dads so i never really saw you on thanksgiving yes and i still haven't seen you on thanksgiving and i We'll not see you on Thanksgiving. But I think, you know, at least on my end with my dad, it was always a lot of like fighting.

So for some reason, what I think about Thanksgiving, I think about like a lot of tension. I will normalize that especially. I mean, obviously for, you know, for you and for other listeners that sometimes the holiday season is really, really tough. It's just everyone comes together. There's high expectations for what it's going to be. Then you're let down. So yeah, that's, I don't think you're the only one that has that anxiety leading up to it because it's sort of, you know, right. If the past dictates what's going to happen, there's a high likelihood for some type of conflict.

Well, now I have the pleasure of going to my in-laws where there's no conflict and no fighting. Oh, you're going to. Oh, okay. You're going to your in-laws for Thanksgiving. Are you, so nobody else is coming. Just you guys going to keep it, Marianelli. His parents are thrown. His, right. Yeah. So, yeah, but no one from like our side. Okay.

Oh, that's going to be nice and relaxing. It is. It's nice because you don't have to do anything. Totally. You have to clean up. Make sure you do some dishes. I always, I always offered it. No, not offer.

Not offer. Just do it. Just do it. Just do. You know, do a little bit. I do, I put the, you know, I do what I can. She's like, I put my particular plate. I like to wait until the dishes are completely in the dishwasher and then I offer.

I serve. No, I do help. I do help. Well, let's get into our episode. Maybe next week. We'll get more from people's fallouts from there. Oh, yeah. We'll get some good triggers after Thanksgiving, I think. It's a big holiday for triggers, I'm sure. Let's get into it. If you guys have a voicemail that you want to leave us, you can call 646363-6294 or email us at oversharing at betches.com. Let's jump right in. I'll read the first email. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana. First off, love the show. Thank you for keeping me grounded week to week with your practical and thoughtful insights. My question for you, I'm in a newish relationship six months in.

I'm a 30-year-old woman and he's a 36-year-old man for context. I've been in a few long-term relationships in my life and this one is thus far the most harmonious. He's emotionally intelligent and intuitive, communicates well and often stable, reliable, supportive, sweet, can crack me up and have an intellectually stimulating convo. but we have a fun and exciting physical relationship we like each other's families travel well together he loves kids and dotes on his nieces and nephews not to mention he's a regulation haughty truly the list goes on sounds perfect okay there is one issue for me we are not aligned politically i am what would probably be considered very liberal while he is a moderate republican we get into it over politics on occasion and i care about it a lot and tend to get work

worked up and emotional. He cares about it much less and has zero issues with the fact that we disagree on the subject. We're working on how to communicate through these disagreements instead of avoid them, but sometimes I'll spiral for days afterwards. I'll hyperfixate on disagreements, which for me often feel like basic moral misalignments, like access to reproductive health care, racial justice, and how to address a growing unhoused population in our city. I love this man and I can see a future with him, marriage, kids, etc. But I'm having such a hard time getting past this. For further context, while this matters deeply to me, my circle of friends and families also very liberal and passionately so. I know I'm experiencing some shame over their potential

judgment. We both want families and are looking to be married eventually, and while this is maybe a small issue to some, it's really troubling me. I often wonder if it makes more sense to cut my losses and move on before I'm many years in, which feels horrible because when we aren't having one of these disagreements, everything is pretty wonderful. SOS, I need some insane guidance. But what do you mean you didn't vote for Biden, Betch? All right. What do you think?

This is a very tough one, I think, because, I mean, especially it's funny because I feel like this used to be a little easier to deal with like 20 years ago when politics didn't feel like a part of everyday conversation. I feel like talking about this kind of stuff used to feel like a little taboo and like you had your thoughts and maybe you like voted a certain way and that was sort of where it ended. But I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe it has always been this way and I've just haven't seen it or felt it. But now it feels like it feels like a substantially larger part of who you are with like social media and just everyone seems a lot more heated.

Right. No, I, I mean, look, I was younger and less involved in this stuff too. So I don't really know how, you know politics have always been a sticky subject. but I do think it's been just so incredibly divisive lately that I hear two different issues going on here. And it's an interesting topic to talk about. It's sort of like one is the moral disagreements that they're having, which sound like, and she's phrasing it in a way that makes it less intense, but maybe it's like abortion rights, you know, racial inequality and some other things that are going on in her city and how to handle homeless population.

but I think that it would be important first to figure out what is like these moral disagreements and are they sort of these distant, abstract concepts or are they things that they are actually that the behaviors that are happening feel like an impasse, you know, in terms of if she were to get pregnant, how would they handle that? You know, that's something that's like real life for them. How would that work? versus, okay, this is how I believe other people should handle it if they get pregnant. And it's kind of this abstract thing that then she has to figure out is how he believes

in these abstract things really does it make me doubt his character enough to where I don't think that I can kind of tolerate these things. Because sometimes you get in this rabbit hole about these abstract concepts, whereas if he said, you know, for racial inequality, does he feel negatively angry? Is he feeling like, you know, not treating people of different races? Do you feel like he's racist? Right. Right.

I totally agree with you were saying. Just like, I think it is he racist or does he disagree about how a problem should be solved that you think it should be solved one way? And he thinks, but he agrees that whatever it is is a problem. Right. Right. You can get stuck on like, are we, you know, are we teaching, you know, critical race theory in school and is that something you disagree about or you know is it the

education system like what is it really sometimes you can just get really bogged down in the idea that someone doesn't agree with you about this thing but if you can really figure out how is he is it affecting how he's treating the people around him is it affecting how he's treating you um you know i think those are things to really be more specific in thinking about when thinking of ending a relationship based on these types of disagreements. I mean, I have so many thoughts on this. But the other one is there's like political shaming that happens, you know. And I think what she's alluding to is maybe he voted for Trump.

And maybe you don't want anyone to know that. And there is a lot of shame for people that, you know, don't dislike Trump or like Trump or like certain politicians that in liberal circles are considered, you know, demons. So is it because you really feel this way or is it because you feel like you don't want anyone to know this about him in your family and with your friends because they're going to going to think differently about you or him? So there's there's two different aspects, I think, going on here. One is like, you know, are they having these disagreements and is it just about the conflict and the ickiness that you feel during that or is it about really who you think he is as a person or is it about

feeling ashamed in front of others that he identifies in this way? Yeah, because probably of what else it says about you. Right. Right. Like these things are kind of signaling things, right? It doesn't necessarily say anything in and of itself. It says it's sort of what you attribute to it. Right. So that's the next question I was going to have her ask herself. When you have this conversation and he says whatever he says that bothers you. What's your fear? What are you afraid of? Because something happened. This is why politics gets so intense because there's something that happens in your body when someone feels differently, especially if it's someone you care about, really as well. Like, I'm afraid that you, what? Fill in a blank. Let's use the reproductive

rights one because that seems like more straightforward. I'm afraid that you don't respect my decision to make my own decisions about my body. That's what I'm gathering from you saying you have this thought. Right. Or maybe I'm afraid that you feel like government should have control over, you know, how I handle my own personal, not just my body, but my future. I think that's a big part of, you know, abortion conversation too. It's not just like my body.

It's what having a baby would mean to my entire life for the next rest of my life. And do I think that the government should have control over that? So, yeah, figure out what the fear is and really address that issue instead of the big picture political talking points stuff that might have nothing to do with you or him or how he treats you or other people. That's an important way to go about it. And I also think if you do choose to stay together, you have to be able to have these conversations in a way where you can really be curious about each other's perspectives, find out why these things are important to him, or maybe you need to explain to him why these things are important to you. And I also would recommend if you're going to stay in this, that you guys both kind of agree

to be mindful of your media consumption. because I think when it's so easy and it's designed to put you in a fear rabbit hole when you're just reading things that are so one-sided and like consuming media that's completely one-sided that it can- demonize the person. Yeah. Because the truth is there's so many people on both sides, nobody's crazy. They're not crazy. Everyone's feeling the way they do for-

Well, some people are crazy on both sides. but I think the extremes doesn't necessarily have to do with this though right no but you do bring up a good point people on the extremes are crazy on both sides both sided extremes tend to be quote unquote crazy so this could be a good thing like you can kind of neutralize each other and bring each other a little bit away from the extremes if you're open to accepting your partner's influence but if your goal is I'm going to change him or I'm going to change her and I need to need him to feel the same way that I do, you're going to have to sit with the discomfort of like, he's not feeling the same way that I am on this particular issue, but maybe we're

neutralizing each other because I do think everyone needs that given the algorithms of what we are consuming in media that wants to bring us to the extremes because the more scared we are, the more intense we're going to be, the more we're going to click, the long. we're going to stay online, the longer we're going to, you know, be consuming. And so it might be a good thing to kind of accept someone's influence and move away from the extremes. Right. I totally agree. And I think the, like you said, the extremes are what gets the clicks. Yeah. Anyone who puts up a post that's like, and here is my like thoughtful take about what each side is like, I was looking for like no one shares that.

Yes. Because it doesn't reinforce their own opinion. Yes. And right, doesn't reinforce your opinion. It doesn't instill fear. It doesn't validate your anger. All these things that just contribute to, you know, more divisiveness. So this might be a good thing.

Try to accept some of his influence and hopefully he can try to accept some of yours and understand where it's coming from. I do think there are times where if you cannot discuss this without getting mean, without becoming dismissive, then it could really become a problem. So I think it is in how do you navigate this? Can you be curious? Can you be open? And I mean, she's talking about politics, but it could be about other things that you kind

of inherently disagree on. Totally. Like how do you deal with stuff that you inherently disagree with? Yes. Maybe that's, you know, whether your kids should go to public. school or private school or like something else that someone's background has led them to believe life should be a certain way. Right. I totally agree. So those how you handle this I think is more important than the actual disagreement because you could marry somebody that has the same political

views and if you tend to be intend to be married forever, they might change. They might start off one way and they might start to feel something else. And you know, things happen that make people re-evaluate strong political stances all the time. So I don't think it's about trying to find someone who's the perfect political match for you. It's about how you navigate these conversations. Right. And again, I agree, assuming you can have these conversations like nicely otherwise. But then you know what sucks is that like if you can't, then you just marry someone who's just like you. And then you're just in your own echo chamber. Yes. All the time. And that does tend to. So,

of breed some more of this extremism. So I think it is in some ways you could turn it into something really nice where you can sort of level each other out. Great to go into 2024 election season with this lingering. Do you want to read our betchesist email? Yes. So we're into some heavy stuff today. It's a heavy episode. We're just going to heavy it up before the holidays. Or push right through. Okay. Dear Jordana and Dr. Naomi, thank you so much for this podcast. I learned something new from every single episode and I think it has truly made me a better person, wife and friend. Awesome. I want to preface my email to let you and the other listeners know that it revolves around abortion and I recognize how triggering this may be to some. I find myself

heartbroken in a situation and I hope that you don't judge me for landing myself here. My husband and I have three young kids, a very busy life and are stretched thin. Our marriage is coming out of a very rough patch, mostly due to all of our stressors, I often feel overwhelmed and emotionally exhausted. About a month ago, I found out I was unintentionally pregnant. I've spent the last month agonizing about whether to keep this baby. My husband didn't really want to keep it, but wasn't going to give a strong no because he didn't want me to terminate the pregnancy for him and resent him. He was willing to move forward with having the baby. I felt tortured because while I didn't want to have this baby, I also felt like I was killing my baby if I aborted.

I should add in here that I'm very pro-choice and I'm not against abortion in principle. I ended up feeling like I just needed to make a choice. I opted to terminate the pregnancy at eight weeks. I felt like our family unit was more likely to survive and thrive without this fourth baby than with it. I'm absolutely devastated and feel like I killed my own baby. It was my job to keep my baby safe and allow it to grow and I let it down. How do I move forward from this? How do I forgive myself?

I already regret this decision and feel like I will never get over. it. I feel like I've robbed my children of another sibling. And if they ever ask me if I've had an abortion, I'd have to tell them that I aborted their sibling. If we ever find ourselves in a place where our family feels strong and we do want to consider adding another child, is this even okay? How could I terminate one pregnancy and move on with another? I feel like I would look at the baby with sadness and a gaping hole in my heart for terminating a baby that could have been born. Thanks for your wisdom and advice, a tortured and empty mom. Okay. Very heavy. Yeah. I think she's being so hard on herself. It's interesting that she starts off this email asking us not to judge her when that wasn't like so far from my takeaway from this. My takeaway was that she was like overly judging herself for this. Yeah. I think she's like in the thick of it. She's really feeling it. I mean the truth is and this is for everyone out there, you're dealing with two.

really tough options. You know, it sounds like the option of adding a fourth child when they're just kind of getting their marriage back on track. And the problem with their marriage is that they are overwhelmed and stressed and now thinking of adding another child to the mix, it makes sense why she did this. Like I was saying before, it's not, you know, having a baby is not just about obviously having the baby. It's about needing to do what it takes to give that baby a good life and to maintain your own sanity and her three kids and her husband while doing it. So I think she made

this choice for a reason, but it was very tough for her because this is the other side of it, which is these feelings of grief and loss. And she's in the middle of that right now. And the way she's talking to herself, you know, like you said, it's just exacerbating it. But I think she needs to feel this. And I'm really glad that I, you know, no judgment for writing in. I'm so glad that you did because I think you're normalizing what happens behind the scenes in the head and heart of someone who's coping with this decision, which by the way, about a quarter of all women by the time they're 45 have had an abortion. Oh, I didn't know that. Yep. And I, I think that like a quarter of them from what I had read are married.

Right. So yes, I think that's a part of her guilt too. Is that like I'm married? I should do this. Right. And I totally get that and validate that. I think that like maybe a lot of her, again, I think a lot of this is sort of about the way you look at it.

And it seems like a lot of her pain is, is this idea that she's, you know, she keeps calling herself like a baby killer. And I think that to call it, I mean, to call it a baby at that stage, and this is coming from someone who's had like two miscarriages at around that phase also. It does, it's not, to call it that really sensationalizes it in a way

that I don't think is true or fair. I think at that point, it is a bunch of rapidly growing cells. Not everyone will agree with that. Some people will disagree. But to call it that, like, again, again, like I have a bunch of embryos also in a freezer somewhere. It's like if I didn't use all of them, is that, you know, killing them essentially? I mean, like, again, I think it's a lot of these things are about how you're internalizing them and how you're rationalizing them. And I think to give it that narrative is going to make it a lot worse. Right.

Because, you know, there's a good chance that there's not a good shit, but there's a, there's a chance that baby wouldn't necessarily even like make it anyway, like one and four pregnancies end in miscarriage. Right. Right. I totally agree with what you're saying. I think that she needs to, in order to move forward from this in a healthy way, and like she said, down the line, if she does decide she wants to have another baby or not

or how she discusses it with her kids down the line, in order for her to do this in a healthy way, she does need to admit to and accept her own thoughts and feelings around it. But I think the verbiage that she uses around that doesn't have to be so punitive. you know, like baby killer, you know, that's extreme. But I do think she needs to admit, I feel sad at the loss, although maybe this isn't how she feels because she didn't say this at the loss of what could have been. Like I don't think that that's, I don't even hear her saying that, but because I think she

knows why she made this choice because it probably would have negatively affected her children that already were born, that already do have lives, that she wouldn't have been able to be there for them in the way that she wanted to as a mom or maybe her and her husband would have ended up splitting up and then they would have had, you know, a tough life around that. So yes, I do think she needs to, when people say process your feelings, right? Like she needs to process this. What does that actually mean? We always talk about the feeling it in your body part of it. But then there's also the like admitting to yourself how you're feeling, saying it. That's what therapy is.

It's like saying it out loud to another person owning up to how you feel, which she's doing with us through this email, which is great. I mean, I wish we could have more of a conversation with her about it. But that's important. Don't be afraid to say all the worst things. Maybe not, you know, I don't know if she needs to repeat baby killer over and over again. But I do think if that's part of her process is I'm afraid that I am. Right.

Or guilt. I feel guilty that I stop. stop this, you know, from becoming a baby. Right. So I think part of processing your feelings is saying it out loud to another person who's going to normalize, validate, take some of the shame out of it. And that's what I hope that we can do for her here. And that's important. And then when it comes up, you just kind of, you know what it is. So when it presents itself in your body, you can kind of be like, I know what this is. This is, you know, my shame.

This is my guilt. And also coming back to how you were feeling when you made the choice. And you didn't make this decision lightly. You made it intentionally. And there's, when you're in that moment, it's almost like what happens after, after someone passes away, someone close to you, there's almost always these feelings of regret. or guilt where it's like I should have called them one more time. I should have went to visit that last thing.

I didn't get to see them one last time. When I left the house, I didn't say I love you. Your brain is going to seek out sometimes when you're grieving, going to seek out a piece of control that you didn't exert that you could have almost like to, it's just a human nature to almost like wallow in this or sink. deeper into this grief and feel like there was some control that you had that you didn't.

You did this on purpose and with your good reasons for why you did this. So I think when your mind is seeking out all the worst case scenarios of why this wasn't the right thing, you're going to find them. You know, like you can do this back and forth any which way. If you would have had this baby, you could then look back and have regrets about having. having had the baby and thinking about it if your mind's looking for that. Do you think that like, you know, again, because to me it's like a lot of her pain comes from seeing the fetus or the embryo or whatever it can be at eight weeks as like a baby in itself.

Right. Do you think it would be helpful or just sort of besides the point to sort of examine the way that she thinks about that? Because she said she's pro choice. Yeah. I mean, I think that all the thoughts that come into her mind should be seen in some way or certainly the ones that are emotionally charged. You know, so I think what what some people do is like they'll have these regrets and then they'll Google and they'll look up what does it, you know, eight week fetus look like and then try to figure out whether or not, you know, like do things like that that. Yes, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily recommend that.

I don't think it's going to make you feel any better. but I also do think sometimes part of processing through emotions is tolerating and sitting with whatever comes up and realizing, okay, I can feel this and I can also be okay. Like I can feel the depths of this. And even as I'm saying it right now in this moment, I'm almost feeling it like in my stomach, what it would feel like to be in that moment of looking at what it was and what it could be. But I do think there's something to be said for going there. and really processing through and realizing this doesn't feel good, but neither option felt good.

You know, you can't put blinders on and sink into the hole of, you know, I killed my baby and what this, you know, what the fetus was and what it could have been. And it was my job to take care of it without also at some point looking at the other side of why you did end up making this choice. But I do. I'm a no, I think she, she can go there. And it would be good to go there with a therapist or with her husband even better. Yeah. You know, to really enlist him in this process. And hopefully he can do what is the hardest thing, which is allow her to feel the grief and the loss without talking her out of it, without convincing her that it was the right, you know, just completely going to the other side of don't even think about that.

You made the right choice. You made this choice for a reason. She can't do that. You can't do either. Right. You know, like just lean towards, well, this was the right choice. This is why I did this. I'm not even going to go to the other place,

but nor can you just sink into the abyss of the other place without balancing it out. That's almost like a harder part that she doesn't address in this thing is that her husband was like basically left it up to her. Yes. Which can feel like a nice thing to do, but it actually then sort of relieves the person of any sort of feeling of responsibility over it.

And then the other person has to carry it themselves. Whereas if you kind of feel like you made the decision together, at least there's someone sort of in it with you as opposed to been like, okay, well, like this was totally my choice. Yes. Which I mean, I guess I agree it should be like in practice. But I think the fact that he was like, do whatever you want to do can kind of almost make it worse. Right.

Well, he did. She got the feeling that he was leaning towards terminating. So that can be a strength because she really is. and it's not like he wanted to keep it. Right. So I think you can lean on him. I would have these open conversations and you might need to say with him, say to him, I'm not looking for you to make me feel better.

I just want you to be here with me as I'm feeling the grief of this. Because I think sometimes that's what happens is like, especially because he's involved and he might have his own feelings of guilt and it might be good for the two of the two of them to feel those things together and like sit and cry about it, which is hard because it almost feels like because she's feeling badly right now that it's making her feel like she did the wrong thing. And that I want to tell her too. Just because you're feeling badly and you're in pain doesn't mean you made the wrong choice. Right. Her and her husband together can sit and hopefully validate each other, hold each other, feel this is a grief. This is a loss. This isn't, you know,

for this particular listener. This happens for everybody in different ways. You know, some people can, you know, do this and move on and it doesn't really bother them. And some people it does. And if it does, you have to really, you know, be able to tolerate the feelings of this and not avoid them. And if you have a partner to sit with you in it, that's great. And his job isn't to just simply remind you why you did this. His job is to do both, let you have your feelings and then also remind you why you did this. Good luck. That's a tough one. Yeah, I really appreciate the email, though, because a lot of people are going through this, men and women. So, and it's a, it's a tough one. And she, you know, the fact that she was afraid of being judged by writing in, I'm so glad that

you did because I think this is something we haven't really tackled and is an important issue to, you know, validate all sides around. Let's do some intentions. I'll read them. We're getting a little lighter now. Okay. Dear Dr. Naomi and Jordana, your podcast is a much-needed moment of calm on my commute to work. I work in health care and counseling is technically under my scope of practice, so I try to channel my inner Dr. Naomi with my patients when the need arises. Love it.

I'm hoping you both could help me with an intention, maybe some advice. I moved in with three of my friends a few months ago, and my roommates are so much messier than I anticipated. Some nights they will leave dirty pots and pans with food on them still on the stove. The dishes are always piled up in the sink, and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who takes the trash out. If someone else takes out the trash, they tend to leave the bag in the kitchen or outside the door. I'm really struggling for an intention as I come home from a long day and end up having to do the majority of the household chores. I've attempted to address the issues in the moment many times in person or via the group text, but it has only improved minimally.

I don't want there to be any resentment between us, but I do find it frustrating and anxiety-provoking to live in a messy apartment. Thank you for any advice or intentions you have. You both are the best from maybe I'm just a need freak. Roommate issues. Roommate issues. So I do think balance, right? Again, maybe that's the theme of this episode is like finding that balance. But I think she's entitled to set some boundaries,

especially around things that are going to like create a stink or perhaps pests or things that are really not okay. Super icky. The super icky things. Right. Like it's one thing if it's like your coffee cup is, your empty coffee cup is on the counter in the morning before you leave for work or something like that. Like that's a messy thing, but it's not like pots on the stove with food still inside or like a garbage bag that's left, you know, not taken out to the trash in the kitchen or in the hallway. Like those things, I think are perhaps boundaries that she can set.

and she might need to be, and maybe this person is somewhat conflict avoidant, I would guess, because it sounds like she's vaguely mentioned it, but I think she might have to choose a few top line items and say, these are my boundaries. We cannot have food left overnight or garbage left overnight. Maybe that's her boundary. But then on the flip side, she's going to have to breathe and relax into some of the other smaller ones that might be good for her to just say, okay, you know, there's a sweatshirt on the floor or there's, you know, whatever some of this other message. The garbage, they've left the garbage on the floor before taking it out or something. I thought that was like a little bit of a, she's like someone else took it out, but not the way

that I want them to take it out. Well, I guess it depends on, like, that's what I wasn't sure about. Is the garbage bag on the floor like for a prolonged period of time? To me, that's kind of gross. outside the door. Like they didn't take it to the actual garbage? Garbage. Right. Right. It's tough because it's almost fun.

It's funny because it's almost easier to say this to like, like, if that's where Mike and I, we're constantly telling each other like how we think that like things should be. Right. Right. But it's, it doesn't feel like contentious. I mean, most of the time. But I feel like with a friend, it's harder. Right.

Do you know what I mean? I don't know. Why do you think that is? like well because you're I mean it might be harder if you guys weren't married I don't know maybe it like I think you have this level of commitment that kind of allows you to kind of be like I can say this and I know you're not yeah I know you're not leaving or you're not going to like ruin our relationship over this like I think sometimes especially if it's a roommate situation it's almost like you could still live with your roommate and have it be extremely tense and barely speak and kind of borderline

dislike each other. And you might still just live like that. You wouldn't really live like that too long in a relationship. So it almost makes it feel like there's, you have a benefit in getting over this and forgiving me and moving on because otherwise you are in like a negative relationship versus a roommate relationship where it kind of feels like some people will just go on like that. But I honestly think if she sets boundaries around this, and my personal boundary would be things that are like unsanitary, like food out, whether it's garbage that's left outside the door because you could get critters and things, rats and whatever. Like just bring it to the garbage and put it in the dumpster, whatever their garbage situation is. Yeah, I would have the conversation not in the group text too. Yes.

because I feel like that's just easy to not really get tone. It's a tougher way to like handle it. Like if you see them, I would just be like, I really hate to be this person. I know I'm kind of a need freak. Would make me feel so much better if when you took out the garbage, you just put it directly in the shoot.

It's just like, it's a me thing. I always think that that kind of helps. You're kind of like, you're like almost asking them for a favor, which is stupid because you shouldn't have to. But you're kind of like, I love it when it's, done this way. Right. Yeah, I agree. That could be a good way to take ownership and make it like as if you're being a stickler or whatever. And I think she can relax into the other stuff, but I mean, she could make up a little tiny white lie and be like, I thought I saw a cockroach.

Like, I think it would be a really good idea if we just made sure that all the food items were disposed of before bed. Right. And that's a good thing also what you just said, like the we. like if you make it like that's that's a great passive aggressive way of saying things so that people you know like we should really get make sure the garbage is in the thing it really means like you but i do that i do that with jeff all the time i'm like we need to get a present for the birthday party on sunday wink wink right it does help i think yeah no because it doesn't doesn't feel like you're ordering someone around it doesn't feel like you're telling them what to do um no i'm kind of joking about the making up a lie. But I do think you could say I'm concerned about I love the fact

that like we don't have any bugs in here. I've never seen a mouse or a rat or anything gross. And I'd love to keep it that way. My one request, that might be a good, you know, thing to do. Pick the one that's really bugging you and just say, you know, the one thing. If we, we can please try to make sure that there's no food left out overnight. I think that's fair. I think that's very reasonable. And the rest of it, I don't know what else the messiness is, but the stuff that doesn't involve food matter being left

or something that's really unsanitary, like if it's bathrooms that are not being cleaned or whatever, if it's just messy stuff around, I think it would be good for her to just take a nice deep breath. It's just items on the floor. It's just things that are not in their place. Those are things that I think she can kind of relax into and maybe find some growth.

So the intention that I wrote is, I will set and maintain boundaries and relax into the discomfort of a mess. Because a mess is different than like dirty. Right. Like I think there's two. Messy and dirty are very different. Right.

So messy, I think, might be good for her to just relax into the discomfort of a mess, but set boundaries around things that are unsanitary. Yeah. And the tough part is with roommates, that's one of the things is like,

we used to call it the disgustingness threshold is that the person with the lowest disgustingness threshold wound up doing more of the cleaning because they did, you know, it was tougher for them to live in that level of disgustingness. It's not fair. It's not fair. It's like it's sort of the nature of how these things

work, like the person who's the, who has the highest bar for the cleanliness winds up doing a little more of the cleaning. All right. Or I guess if you really get fed up, you could take the pot and just put it right on the floor in their bedroom. Like, I'm not cleaning this, but I also don't want to look at it. So I'm going to leave it right here for you. That's going to go well.

J.K., don't do that. But, yeah, I hear you. I'm assuming that you were on when you say that, like, you agreed to this disgustingness threshold, that you were not. the one that was the most disgusted. Honestly, it depended on the day. Okay. I think in college.

It's like sometimes someone, you know, sometimes you're like, if we're in college and we're hung over, like, yeah, my disgustingness threshold is much higher than if I'm like start a Monday morning on like a, you know, a good note. Yeah, I get it. That's the tough thing about roommates, I think. Yeah. It really is tough. The kitchen and the shared bathroom.

But look, have your little oasis in your bedroom make it the way you want it. And if all else fails, you can just kind of go in there when you need to have control over your own space. Right. Or start suggesting that you guys pay for a cleaning lady. And that usually gets people to either like start contributing or chill out. Okay. Let's do some triggers. Hi, Jordana and Dr.

Naomi. about a trigger scenario that came up in my marriage this week. My husband and I have been married since April, and so far things have been going well. We live together for about a year before, so it hasn't been a huge adjustment. However, we do have issues come up when it comes to working out overall fitness. He works out twice a week or so vigorously for about an hour at a time. I prefer more frequent four times a week workouts, but shorter, around 30 minutes, lighter weights, and higher reps. However, he wants us to work out together, and when we do, it feels like he's pushing me as though he's a personal trainer, always wanting me to race him on runs or bike rides

together or beat his output number on the peloton. Earlier this week, I finally dragged out of him that he thinks I've gained weight. He really doubled down and said he's been waiting for me to lose weight for about 18 months, maybe longer, quote unquote. And his attraction to me has been impacted by this. To clarify, I maybe have gained 10 to 15 pounds since we've been together, four and a half years at this point. So I don't think that my weight has ever been an issue. I, of course, was devastated and still processing this several days later. I know he meant it out of love and wants me to be motivated and enjoy doing active things together, but I was immediately triggered. Thoughts, how triggered can I be on a scale of one to ten? What should I do to move forward? Would love your advice

and help on this as two married ladies. Thank you, fit, but six-packless betch. So this is very triggering. I totally can understand why that would feel extremely triggering. On the other hand, I appreciate what he was trying to do here originally. Like, I understand, like, what he was trying to do to an extent. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one because I think it's kind of like,

no one wants to hear that. No one wants to hear that someone, it seems like he's implying he's less attracted to her. That's the tough part. That's a really painful thing to hear. on the other hand, if that is the case, if he was feeling like that, what would she have preferred him to do? Right. I guess it's the other part of it.

Right. I don't think there was any, I agree triggering, but I don't know that there's any other way around it if he was going to be honest with her about his feelings. And it sounds like his behaviors were starting to get really annoying. So it's almost like they're going to start not enjoying being around each other because he's just, you know, this feeling that he's having is like seeping out and he's not talking about what he's really feeling and he's just like screaming at her while she's on the peloton aggressively. It's like that's not really working either. So the question I think for her is how does she feel about her body? You know, because she says fit but six packless batch. So it's kind of like if you do

feel like you're fit and you're happy with your body and you don't feel like it's unhealthy or maybe the way that you were when you first got married or when you first got together with something that you felt like wasn't your natural healthy body weight, then that's a conversation to have too. We're just kind of like, look, I don't want, I don't think I need to lose weight. And maybe the way that I was four and a half years ago was not my, you know, natural fit, healthy body weight. Maybe that was, maybe she was overdoing it or maybe she was over exercising or under eating

or whatever it was happening at that point. So I think she first has to be honest with herself about whether or not she wants to change what she's doing. And then that's a different conversation. If she's kind of like, no, this is how I like my body. It's like what we talked about a couple of episodes ago. This is my body. I get to do what I want with it.

But she does have to first start by being honest with herself about how she feels about it. Well, what does she do about this relationship? thing though. Like I feel like it might be I can imagine it might be hard to like interact with someone when they've told you that they don't like the way you look essentially. That's sort of like that you can't go back kind of thing to hear from here. Right. What do you where do you go from there? Right. I guess. Yeah. I mean look I think that the other piece that I think the husband is looking for is to like enjoy active things together. So it's almost you know sometimes I don't. I don't.

know that this is happening, but I wonder, it's like I've been talking about like accepting one another's influence, right? So it's sort of like, this is how I like to work out. And this is how I like to work out. And instead of just kind of trying to get the other person to do what you want to do, like meeting in the middle and accepting the other person's influence and saying like, he really enjoys doing these active things together. Like maybe we can do a little bit more of that. Or, you know, maybe on his end, he can kind of say, all right, well, I am, I don't need her. her to be 15 pounds lighter, like when we first met, but, you know, maybe she'd be open to, if we do some active things together. Maybe she could be a little more fit in whatever way

makes her feel good. So I think they do need probably more. This first conversation, I think, was just like letting the cat out of the bag. And I think they can have some more subsequent conversations about what does this actually look like in reality. And maybe she does say, you know what, I could put a little bit more effort into my workouts. Like I am kind of complacent or I need to change it up and do something that I like more. Maybe they can find something that they enjoy doing together and meeting in the middle. So I think there's more conversation to be had here as uncomfortable as it is and as triggering as it is that nothing's going to be more triggering than that first one. I agree.

And I would give that an eight because I think it's doubly triggering. It's triggering to hear that someone that you're married to, that your husband is like potentially has lower attraction to you than he used to. And then the other part that I think is triggering is that they've been secretly thinking about like when I've been waiting for the part I've been waiting as in like I've been thinking this for a long time and you just had no idea and you thought I like loved the way you look the whole time.

Right. It's also I think quite triggering. So I would give this like an eight, eight point five. Because it's an eight is why it took him 18 months to say it. So that's what I'm saying. I understand what he was trying to do where he was trying to not say it. He was trying to just sort of like encourage things that he wanted her to do to get her to

that place without her knowing that he didn't like the other way. Like I don't think it was like malicious to do it that way is kind of what I'm saying. Right. Yes. I agree. And ultimately they can talk about it. They could find ways to meet in the middle. She can do some reflecting about whether or not she loves her body the way she is and she thinks

it's healthy and fit. And if she does, she's going to have to say, look, I like my body the way that it is. I think I'm healthy. I think I'm fit. If there's other things that I can do to spice up our romantic life or, you know, I'd love to talk about it, but like changing my body any further than how it is right now because I feel good about it. I think that's within her rights to say.

And then he's going to have to figure that out. I don't think it's fair for someone who's healthy and fit, but without a six pack to kind to kind of be like, I'm not going to be attracted to you. Right. anymore unless you have a six-pack. Like, I don't, I think that's an unreasonable ask. I don't know if that's what he's saying. Well, that's what she's hearing, even if he's saying.

Right. So maybe start with that. Like what, you know what I mean? Like, what are your expectations? Right. I think is sort of another question. Totally. I'm impressed with this couple.

I am actually impressed with him. I don't think this was easy to say. I agree. It's very triggering. But I think the hard part is over. The Band-Aid has been ripped off and the conversations that they have subsequent, I think are going to be really beneficial and help both of them figure out their way through this because the alternative would have been bad, him not either continuing to be annoying to her

and pressuring her passive aggressively or him, you know, quietly not being attracted to her and then that affecting their relationship as well. So I think as hard as this is right now, this is a place that a lot of couples will dance around for a long time and never go there. So you're through the worst of it. Keep talking about it. And hopefully you can find your way to a place that feels good for both of you. Let's do one more.

Hi, Jordan and Dr. Naomi, I love the pod. It's become such a breath of fresh air in my podcast rotation. I have a triggered scenario for you guys. Recently, I quit a horribly toxic job to celebrate a close friend of mine planned a girl's night. A few days before, she told me that she invited a guy she had recently started seeing, who I hadn't met yet, I wanted to make sure I was fine with him coming. I expressed some annoyance that she basically cornered me into saying yes, given that she had already

invited him, but I said I didn't mind him coming. Because she invited this new guy, another friend coming brought her boyfriend as well. We all hate this boyfriend and I go out of my way to avoid social situations that involve him. The girl's night out ended up turning into me fifth wheeling and frankly feeling pretty awkward. At the time, I was highly annoyed since the night was nominally supposed to be about me and was not fun for me at all and I felt manipulated into having this experience. How triggered can I be by this? I'm a bit self-conscious about this as I know it's easy to read this as the single friend being bitter, but I think I was justified. Yeah, I think this happens a lot when you have, I get it. It's like there's supposed to be a night that's supposed to be about you or for you

or in some way like your night and then it doesn't end up feeling like it's your night at all, that it's been taken over by someone else's priorities. And that is really disappointing. And, you know, it felt like she had, I think, had been struggling to get out of this toxic work environment for so long, probably talking to these friends about it. She has this thing. They're supposed to be celebrating her.

And it turns into like something that's not fun for her. I get it. I think they can also just reschedule the thing and do it in a different way. If that wasn't fun for her. Right. I agree. I think it's triggering to have something to be supposed to be about you and then it becomes something that you wouldn't even enjoy. And I think that and I think I totally validate her being like I don't want to be like the single bitter friend who can't be around other people's boyfriends. But at the same time, I also do feel like it's okay to want to spend a night with just my girlfriends if it's a night supposed to be a night about me. Right. But it's tough because you can judge yourself for. feeling like, oh, I'm banning men from this event or something. Right, right, right. I think it would have been nice if her friends had the forethought to be like,

if we're making this night about her, let's make it about her and like make it a true girl's night out. Right. Totally. I agree. I think this comes up in so many different ways, whether it's like a birthday that doesn't go the way you want it or like, you know, I remember when I first became a mom, Mother's Day, I had like big expectations around it, but then I also realized, okay, it's Mother's Day, but like my husband also has a mother that he wants to celebrate and she might want things that are different than how I want them. And I think ultimately, and even like we talked about Thanksgiving or whatever. It's like everyone, you know, that's not about any one particular person, but like you kind of have an expectation of how you think you want that to go and everyone has their own ideas. So I think.

think the idea of like just let them know I was looking forward to celebrating this work thing with you guys. I don't know. I could tell her friend you don't like her boyfriend, but you could be like, I would love to have a night just the girls to do that. Can we try it again? So I get it, but that wasn't the only night that that can be done. You can do a take two and try it again another day, which is sort of like, whether it's like, you know, Mother's Day or something like that that's supposed to be a holiday, but there's many different mothers. You can be like, you know what, it's fine. Let's do whatever you want to.

We'll go do what your mother wants to do. And maybe the next day, we can kind of do what I want to do instead of making it like this whole big, here's our one chance to celebrate this one person and there's no doovers. So I get it. But I think you can just say, hey, let's plan a night for the three of us. Yeah. And I think if you come at that with vulnerability, even if you were just to be honest, like sometimes when I'm hanging out and it's all a couple of,

I feel like the fifth wheel. I feel like I don't belong there. I feel a little more comfortable when it's girls' nights. And I was hoping to do that for this one. Totally. Well, you can argue with that. Yeah. Really.

I think a lot of people, majority of people don't, that's not their favorite way to hang out if they're single is to hang out with two other couples. So I think that's very understandable. And I think she can express it that way. And just try it again and just let them know. And maybe just letting them know and not in a way of,

like you, you screwed this thing up and now I'm mad at you. Not in that way, but like a, hey, let's try this again. I was really looking forward to spending time alone with you guys. Can we do it on Saturday? That's it. Let them fix it. The worst thing is when somebody does something that you don't like, you tell them you don't like it, but you don't give them any opportunity to make it better.

That's like. Right. Because then they just, what do they do with that? Right. That's just frustrating. And this is not something that there's no coming back from. And it gives you an opportunity to express how you feel so that next time maybe they'll, when it's your birthday or when it's like something about you,

they'll be mindful of not making it like a fifth wheel experience. Situation. Yeah. I'd give it a five, four point five. I'd give it a four because it's not like it wasn't her birthday or like a one day thing. It's like a thing that they can just try again on another day. Right. Even though it was presented as a thing for her.

I see what you're saying about. Yeah. I mean, look, if it wasn't presented as a thing for her, it would be like a one. It would be like a nothing. So that moves it up a little bit because it was supposed to be a thing for her. But I think if she expresses it and says, hey, let's try again. Hopefully they'll be open to that. So yeah, I give it a four.

But I do get it. I get that this was supposed to be for you. And it turned out like actually the opposite. So I hear you. That's it for us for today. That's it for us. Happy Thanksgiving. We'll be back next week.

All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morelas Pico, and Rebecca Sousel McHan. Editing by Basilio Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches.