Oversharing - Friend Breakups: How To Find Closure

Episode Date: September 6, 2022

How do you strike the right balance between assertiveness and complacency? Jordana and Naomi start the show with a conversation about becoming more or less aggressive in daily interactions, along with some tips for getting outside your comfort zone. The essie Overshare email of the week comes from a listener whose close friend suddenly withdrew from the relationship back in college, leaving her feeling left out. Now that she’s back in close proximity, should she reach out and find closure, or leave things in the past? Next, they debate a challenging Betchicist question: is it okay to be disappointed by your partner’s plan for your milestone birthday, even if you hijacked their idea and paid for it yourself? How do we find satisfaction in our relationships and stop focusing on the negative? Finally, the Triggered scenarios involve a Tennis match betrayal, a disappointing breakup, and an overreach in couples therapy. Thanks again to our presenting sponsor essie. For more information, visit: essie.com/colors-and-connection Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. How is everything?

How's it going? Let's catch up. Pretty good. What's been going on with you? You've been traveling a little bit? Yeah, I was just in Charleston. So I have the perfect anecdote for feeling extremely irritable. I feel like I always talk about my issues with customer service on this show.

But do you ever have such a negative customer service interaction that you want to, you feel like vengeful? That might be mom like speaking inside me. Sometimes that might be the other side of the gene pool. No, not. I mean, you know. Feel very vindictive. On occasion.

Well, we'll spill. What's the. Who did you want to kill? Well, I had, it's funny because it was like a juxtaposed. So I had a Delta flight on Monday evening from Charleston that got, they canceled it like before I went to the airport like 1.30. Well, that was nice of them. Yes.

So I was like, okay, fine. That's fine. But I really like to get home tonight. It didn't really seem like there were actually any weather issues. So we got a refund on that flight. We booked a different JetBlue flight home. And then I called Delta and they were like, so sorry for the inconvenience. They're like, we could put you on a flight tomorrow morning.

We're like, it's okay. We're going to take a different airline. But is there anything you could do for us? They're like, yeah, here's $150 a person for the inconvenience. And the refund. And you were okay with that so far? I was okay with that. Very nice, good customer service.

Then we go to the airport for this jet flu flight, which is around the same time as our original flight. It keeps getting delayed. It's getting delayed every 20 minutes you get another notification that it's delayed another 30 minutes. That is so annoying. Very annoying. This was the new flight that we booked.

And I'm getting more and more irritated. If this flight is not happening, like, it's almost like dating. That's what's saying. Break up with me. Just break up with me. Just do it. Don't like, right, hope I just leave. And then eventually they canceled the flight.

Like three hours, after delaying the flight for three hours, they canceled the flight. So I'm like very irritated. And we call JetBlue. And so I was same situation. I was like, so like they're like, we can put you on a flight tomorrow morning. Or no, it was like tomorrow, it was like tomorrow evening. And I'm like, we need the earlier flight. She's like, no, there's nothing I can do.

And I'm like, well, is there anything you can do for me? Comprehension wise? She's like, there's nothing. No, she's just like rude. There's nothing I can do? Like, that's, I'm like, well, can I speak to a supervisor and speak to that? And she was like, no, the supervisor is going to tell you the same thing as me. And then I was like, well, I was like, well, according to my like JetBlue customer

Bill of Rights, which I saw like on TikTok is something you're supposed to do. She hung up on me. she hung up on me and this is after you're waiting you're in the airport trying to figure out we're going to say she hung up on me she was like just saying no and then and then I was so mad I was like one day I'm going to make enough money to buy JetBlue and then I'm going to fire everyone who works there I'm going to like accept the loss of loss of investment just for the vindictive feeling of like I'm going to find this person and they're going to be gone right oh my god hanging up That's bad. I've never been hung up on. And I was, it's fun. I was like, I don't feel like I'm that. I was saying it. I wasn't

cursing at her. I wasn't saying anything. Like, I wasn't screaming. I was just like, I don't accept this. Right. And I just found it to be like the worst customer service experience I ever had. And I was getting really mad. How did my candle it when you were, when you were freaking out? Was he on the same page or was he like, all right, honey, stop down. Well, he's a good interview. He did a good job. And, he did a good job. that instance of being like, I totally get it. They're being absurd, but like let's just figure out like what we're going to do instead much, but I'm, you know, it's hard, especially because we're in that moment if we actually do need a new plan. Yeah. I almost wish that I had a video of you being hung up on in the middle of the airport and then standing there and it, like the face

that you must have had when you just told me that you got hung up on by a customer service representative And it wasn't even like you went to the supervisor and then the supervisor's like, okay, I'm the end of the line. Right. Yeah. That's crazy. I just feel it's real. I feel like the most angry I get is when you feel like you have an issue and you have no power in the situation. Yeah. So I actually have no, they're a huge corporation. I have no way of like actually being hurt or getting any like they can treat me however they want. I have no. There's nothing I can. I can. do. Especially once she hangs up on you, then there's really nothing. And I've already waited on the phone for half an hour. So annoying. I'm sorry. That's, that's not very frustrating. Even just hearing that sounds like very, it's very comforting. And then we booked a different United flight the next morning. And then that one got canceled. No way. And so three airlines also got canceled. And then we wound up going on the same Delta flight a day later that we had originally booked that wound up. That wound up.

taking off. But there was a different one to JFK that got canceled. So I felt very lucky in that moment that we had chosen the right airport to fly into. This reminds me of like a home alone scene where like she's like trying to do everything to get back. She's like booking and rebooking. And then she basically ends up like arriving home the same time that like her original flight that she could have taken would have arrived home. Like if you would have just accepted the flight that the original flight they would have gone up earlier. Yeah. So not only did you get the gift of being aggravated by three different airlines, but you arrived home even later than if you would have just accepted your fate in the beginning. So I guess that's a lesson to just go with it.

And I mean, I really could have just gone with it. The nice, I mean, to have better perspective on the situation, like I didn't have kids waiting at home for me. We didn't really have, you know, we can work remotely. We didn't really have anything that was such a big issue keeping us there for the next day. It's just more like I want it when I want it or it feels very unfair. But, But also, if you look at the grand scheme of things and you have a perspective of, well, like, you know, I'm lucky to have just gone on vacation. And again, there's nothing extremely pressing that I need to be home immediately for. So like, why can't I just relax? I wonder what made it hard for you to just say, all right, we're just going to take another day.

And Charleston will work from the hotel. I'm like, chill. I think it was if I had known that, it's really about the expectations. And I think it's like, I have a booked a flight expecting it to. to leave. Right. And also the gradual 20 minute descent into canceled them was probably very annoying. Like when you first got canceled and you were like, okay, we're just not going to go to the airport. You probably could have relaxed into like, all right, well, take an extra day on vacation and like hang out the pool and take calls or whatever. But once you were packed up and at the airport and in mode to leave,

it's hard to kind of backtrack. Yeah. Yeah, I should have just accepted my fate earlier. And then I could have leaned into it. But I think that is a good lesson in like manipulating the situation. Like sometimes you want to get someplace so fast and you're not even sure why or you're so to make this about a much bigger thing. I think this can also be related to getting to the next phase of your life. How do I get there immediately? How do I get a boyfriend and then propose to and then married and then how do I get a kid?

And I need to be a, I need to be catch. I need to be where I want. want to be at the exact moment I need to be there, when if you could just relax and sort of enjoy the ride or enjoy the situation that you're in, you could be a lot happier, even though I understand obviously when no one's perfect, like easy to get frustrated by those things, myself, very much included. But I wish I could be the kind of person who's just like so zen that they're just kind of like, yeah, it'll happen when it happens.

I'll get home when I get home. Yeah. Totally. Well, you could get there. You can work towards it. How? What do you suggest? Doing your, I think just like, again, like we always talk about, once you're in that

physically activated state, the irrational thoughts start flooding in. And you have to almost check yourself, you know, like what you said was perfect. I loved it. It's like a microcosm for relaxing into your own life. Like if you would have gotten that original cancellation, they said, here's the flight. It's tomorrow night. And you would have turned to Mike and said, look, this isn't what we expected. but let's just take it.

We'll take another day on our vacation. And instead of going to the airport and having to like, you know, figure it out and be all stressed, let's just like, it is what it is. Let's just accept it and embrace it and look for the positive. And it's an extra day on your vacation. It really wouldn't have been terrible. I'm not judging you. I probably would have ended up doing the same thing.

But I love the concept of just like stopping and checking yourself. You know, just check like even, you know, even, you know, know the concept of that's the story that you tell yourself about who you are just being able to say okay let me calm my body calm your body first and then you can think a little bit more calmly and say like this isn't really that bad you know like I'm just I need to live this as it is it's not easy but I do think if you practice it you can get there I'm gonna work on that for next time because sometimes like you said it seems right it seems like an urgency, but it's almost like you're just hopped on this train and now you're not even like

paying attention to why you hopped on the train or where it's going. You're just like, well, this is where it says we're going. So I guess we're going there. And we better get there fast because that's where everybody's going. Right. Like, okay, stop yourself. What are, why is this a rush? Why are you going? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And do the reasons that you have for being there immediately really make sense? It's funny the idea, it seemed like when you're in that phase, does feel like you're the physical incarnation of being tightly wound. Mm-hmm. Like anything that like interrupts it is going to send you spiraling or with the idea of like

being relaxed in your body or like open. It kind of makes you think of like the physical how it like physically affects your body and how it and how your mind is so tied to it. Can I give you an exercise to try over the course of the next week? I would love that. I don't know if you're going to like it. but I'm going to prescribe it. Let's hear it.

I've been doing it myself and I find it really helpful. So did you ever hear of this guy Wim Hof? He's like an Instagram. He's like the Iceman Hoff. No. So, okay, you should check him out. He has this whole concept of basically like cold water immersion. And placing your body in cold water has many benefits for mental health.

Does it? It does. And one, because it, you excrete. certain chemicals into your bloodstream that like dopamine and feel good chemicals and all this type of stuff that happens from like changing the homeostasis of your body. But you're doing it not because you're about to get hit by a car, you're doing it like intentionally on your own within your own control. So the other benefit which I really, and it's apropos to what you're talking about, is this idea of when you're in the shower and you can do it low level. This, I,

Man-Hoff guy gets into like freezing cold ice baths and like freezing, freezing, freezing cold water. I don't think you need to necessarily do that to achieve some of the benefits. So next time you're in the shower, turn the water to like colder than what's comfortable. Like turn it to cold to the point where you're like, uh, I don't want to be this cold. I want to turn it down or I want to get out like that moment where you're like, this is uncomfortable. I need to like do something different. and then relax your shoulders and breathe deep and just relax into the sensation of discomfort.

And what I think you will find, and everybody's had this experience going into a pool that's too cold and then being like, okay, once you get used to it, it's not so bad. Right. So if you can do this on a regular basis, it's like a microcosm for everything we're talking about. It can help you to stop in the moment of discomfort. and relax into the discomfort to the point where you can then talk to yourself in a more rational voice. And you can kind of be like, I'm not going to die from this. It's just cold water. I can turn it down anytime I want, especially if you're doing it in a shower. Like a twist of a wrist to get out of it,

but sort of easing into it and what you'll, you could set a timer for a minute. But what I think you'll find is that after a minute, you'll almost kind of be like, okay, that really, I'm, used to it now. I don't even need to turn it down now. I don't even need to do anything different. So it's like a microcosm for any type of stress and sort of teaching yourself with regularity, this process of like, I'm going to relax into this stress and it's going to relax my thoughts. And it's going to allow me to do nothing to change the external. but I'm going to have a different perception of this experience by changing my own body and mind and like make the change within myself instead of needing to reach out to the outside world

to make the change. I like the idea you get colder and colder every time or is it still? Eventually, but I would go at your own pace. But yeah, eventually you could get to the point where you're like doing it because at some point it's not going to be, it's not going to feel uncomfortable anymore. Right. once you do it enough at that temperature, that's not going to be uncomfortable. But the idea is, yeah, let's push yourself because you want to practice being uncomfortable.

And it's a way to practice being uncomfortable within your own control. I like that a lot. I'm going to try that, well, at least once before our next session. Yeah. For our next session. But it's funny, I read this book by David Sinclair called Lifespan, and it's all about how you can, like, live forever. And one of the key components of that is making yourself. uncomfortable actually makes yourselves, I don't know the exact science of it, but it can make

yourselves live longer. Right. And so you can adaptation, I guess. Right. You can expand your life cycle by basically making yourself uncomfortable, be that in exercise or in extreme heat or extreme cold. Like those are, being comfortable is sort of what leads you to a shorter life. Yeah.

Which was interesting. Yeah. I believe it. I've heard that like, you know, being kind of on, like not starvation. but like, and I'm not trying to promote any type of like. Kind of the intermittent fasting. He also is a fan of that. Yeah.

Like somehow like creating that like survival instinct, getting yourself into survival mode. Yeah, it can help you live longer. So yeah, just practicing these little bits where you make yourself uncomfortable and then like, you know, relax into the discomfort. That's kind of how to handle all this stuff. So give it a job. I'm really excited. I hope you do it. I'll be very disappointed if we show up next week and you don't have anything.

to report. I'm going to try it. I've got a nice long solo weekend. So I might as well try it out. Yeah, try it out. Time for the overshare email of the week brought to you by our favorite nail polished brand, Essie. For many of us, the world feels lonelier than ever. So Essie launched hands all in a cause initiative to combat loneliness with the power of colors and connection. Bostering meaningful relationships is super important for your mental health. So today's email is all about dealing with loneliness and also sort of like letting go of things. that are making us feel worse long after they've had any power, I think is kind of what I got from this email.

But do you want to read it? Sure. I'll read it. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I love oversharing. I'm a huge fan of Betches and you up. And I'm so happy to have this awesome new podcast to listen to.

I have a question about someone who hurt you coming back into your life. I had a very close friend throughout high school and into early college. I'll call her Melissa. We were in the same course. a friend group and once did everything together. Looking back, I always felt like she was cooler than me, and I was lucky to be friends with her and had to do whatever she wanted to keep her. We graduated high school as best friends and went to the same college. During our freshman year, we stayed super close. Sophomore year, she stopped inviting me to things. It was a super sudden

shift, and she began hanging out with groups of friends I'd introduced her to without me. She slowly became increasingly hostile and mean when we did speak. I didn't really confront the situation because I had so much at stake as our lives and friends. were super intertwined. As one example, I told her that I'd signed up for a college-sponsored spring break trip that she was doing too, as we talked about doing it together. She responded, ha, ha, okay, but I'm going with X and Y, mutual friends who are closer to her. These types of scenarios became increasingly common and intense. During our junior year of college at the same school, she suddenly stopped speaking to me. When I reached out, she ignored me and took our other friends

away from me as well. I was super lonely and in a really low place. It's been four years and I've somewhat moved on, but never really got closure. On to the current issue. Last year, I found out through social media that Melissa moved to my small city for a new job. This really upset me, but I figured I wouldn't see her much. She has a new boyfriend who lives on my same floor in my apartment. I've run into her a few times and she's overly nice to me as if we are still best friends. I fear running into her and have almost a psychological block from going past the boyfriend's apartment in case she happens to be coming or going at that very moment. The floor has two elevators and one is right next to the boyfriend's apartment and closer to mine as well.

I only take the other elevator because I do not know how I'd handle being in the same elevator with her for 16 floors. The situation is consuming me and I don't know what to do. Any ideas. Interesting. Yeah. Sounds like she's talking about an ex almost, but I I guess it is in some ways it can feel the same way. I think a friendship breakup and an ex-breakup, we don't really give as much societal weight to, I think, a friend breakup as you would hearing about it. You know, a guy used to date or something. So this is interesting to me. What stands out to me on this one, and I've seen this a lot in my practice actually, is it's not just, the reason why I think this is so big for her, it's not just about this friend. It sounds like

she became really isolated in general and was kind of like ostracized from the whole friend group. So what I've seen a lot of times in my practice is when people are in these situations, whether it's, you know, away at college or like I've heard a lot, even in terms of like people that go away to sleepaway camp and that you don't have your family and you don't have your core support network and then somehow you're isolated and alone and like in this girl drama where you're kind of on the outside, it feels really, really lonely and dark. And I think when she says something, I forgot the phrasing that she used, but it was like, you know, a really shitty time for her because she was very lonely in a really low place, she said.

Yes. Yes. So that to me means that it wasn't just about this friend. It was like this whole traumatic experience of being really alone and away from her family and away at college. So I think that can have profound effects on people. whether it's as something that happens even in middle school or, you know, especially when you're away from home. I think it's much harder. So to me, this is like more of a traumatic experience of being so lonely in a way at college. And this friend is sort of the person that she has to blame for

that whole kind of super low place that she was at in college. So I can see why this is, you know, traumatic for her and why she's just like, wants to avoid this person at all costs. And she associates her with like that period of her life. So yeah, that would be tough to see your like college like bully. And I wouldn't say she's bully because she's not really, but she's not really necessarily talking about bullying, but she's talking about sort of like someone who tormented her on purpose or not on purpose. She found it to be tormenting the way that their interaction is now live and well on your

exact same building of your floor. I could see to me again, I don't know if I've had a friendship situation like that, but I'm just imagining an ex who like broke my heart living like, you know, around the corner around my, on my floor and just being like almost having like a PTSD from seeing them. And on top of that, she's just pretending like nothing happened. She's like,

I was in the lowest place of my life because of you. And now you're coming back and just pretending like that never happened where I had to kind of live through that. Right. What do you think is the move here then to, in order to, I mean, besides moving,

Right. I think, you know what, I think what might be helpful for her is to prepare a statement or, you know, a way of being, whatever she's going to do if she does end up. So she kind of, if she does end up in the, in an elevator with her, stuck in the hallway with her, walks in together or something like that for her to kind of prepare herself with how she wants to handle it. From this email, I assume that she does not want to be vulnerable. She does not want to open up and she does not really want to repair this. You get the same. Yeah, I don't necessarily think she wants to repair, but I do think she said she never got closure. Right. So to me, the fact that she's still thinking about the fact that she never really said, because everything was so intertwined, I never really said how I felt. Mm-hmm. And if I had to guess from the other girl's side, she might feel really bad. It's been a bit, right?

And she's always really friendly. If that she's like extremely friendly almost makes me think she is, you know, almost like compensating for something or things, you know, when she thinks about, she's like, a little embarrassed maybe about the way that she treats her. And I'm not saying that's necessarily how she feels, but to me, the over-friendliness or like the pretending it never happens sort of as indicative of her kind of not thinking she acted in the best way. Yeah, I could see that. So look, one option is she can actually address this and be like, obviously we're seeing

each other a lot, but I do have to be honest with you. I went through a pretty low place in college after you decided that you didn't want to be my friend anymore, which is basically what happened. Like she literally was ignoring her. So I think she could simply say, like, you know, I'd be happy to try to reconnect and be friendly, but I just have to get this off my chest that I, you know, I'm not sure if you know how badly you withdrawing from our friendship. So suddenly made me feel and just put it out there and see maybe she'll just be like,

I know I'm so sorry. Like I just was whatever she wants to say. Right. And I bet she would say, I mean, again, I don't, we don't know anything really about her or where she is at now or how normal she is. But part of me thinks that like most people after they're in the situation, when they have a little space from it, when they look back, do see things a little bit more clearly.

For sure. And four years later. So that's why I, you know, I don't think it would be crazy for her to give her another chance four years later. A lot of times college and friend groups and boyfriends and, you know, self-esteem issues and trying to fit in can make. make people do things that where they're not really their best selves during like high school and college. So maybe she wants to give her the benefit of the doubt that she was immature and she's

grown. But I don't think that she can fake it. I think she'd have to at least say something about how her sudden withdrawal from the friendship made her feel. I would almost like ask her to get coffee. And then I mean, I'd ask if she is such a strong reaction to her. Maybe that's not realistic. But I almost think it would, again, it's more for the emailer. then the friend to just be like, what's going to help her, right? What's going to help?

She said she never got closure. She feels anxious whenever she sees this person. So I feel like if you almost like confront the beast. Yeah. Say exactly what you just said. I don't know if you know this, but when I was at a really low place in that point, and I still think about it and it makes me feel really bad.

Even if you're not being like, and you did this and you did that, I think the person would probably understand. their role in that even without you saying it, but you could say it if you needed to about why they'd see you. And then at least like, again, the ice is broken. So it's not like this weird fake high strung thing that every,

whenever you see her. You're not going to move. To me, this is almost the only other way to deal with it. Unless I guess she was in therapy and she could manage to unpack that on her own. Right. Again, like going back to what we were talking about in the beginning of the episode,

like going against your grain and doing the thing that's uncomfortable. I'm sure asking her for a coffee would be so uncomfortable, but it might be self-growth for this person, you know, even if it's not, doesn't end up the way that they want it, just being able to confront the situation, express her feelings. It seems like she probably errs more towards the side of non-confrontational because she never confronted her even when it was actually happening. Right.

So it might be a growth experience for her to practice a little bit of confrontation here and get that experience and that sort of, desensitization to going through something, even if it's old, to just kind of clear the air for her own sake. So yeah, I think that might be a good option. And, you know, look, I don't want to ignore the option that she may most likely take, which is just being fake with her every time she sees her and just avoiding her. But if you choose the avoiding her option, I would just come up with something that you're prepared if you do see her like, oh, hey, how's it going? or just, you know, something that she can do.

Look, I think for her own personal growth, it would be great to take your suggestion and ask her for a coffee and address it. Like you said, it might not be the most realistic. Right. I could also just see her being like, oh, I'm going to ask her for coffee. She's probably going to say no,

because she used to, based on the past is, any indication of the present, then this person, you know, used to ignore. Why would I text someone who used to ignore me? Right. fear that they might ignore me again. So I can see why even I can, putting myself in her shoes, I would be like very afraid to do that just for the chance of being rejected and feeling worse than I did before

that. So you do have a good point about the ignoring her situation. But I guess my only, my thought is if I were her, I'd be like, what is the best thing that I could get out of an interaction with her? Or like, what is the goal? Right. You know, I think if she, like you're saying, I think the goal is that perhaps her. Perhaps the goal is that she wants to process this and get some closure, right?

Which like you said, maybe she could do by herself in therapy, just realizing like, how come I wanted to be friends with someone that was keeping me at a distance? How come I was trying so hard for this friendship that didn't make me feel good? And really exploring like what her own psychological issues were that kept her so engaged with this person and not branching out to other people. And I think she could do that on her own. But perhaps she just does want, like closure you want with anything is for somebody to acknowledge your feelings and perhaps apologize so that when she runs into her, she won't feel so much

like tension and anger and hatred towards her. And maybe you could even do that via a text. Right. Do you know what I mean? You could just text that I assume their numbers the same. Most people don't change their numbers. Like you could text her and be like, hey, I know we've been running into each other a lot. And I have to say, I actually feel really like kind of like a little bit internally activated when I see you just because I know you, you're always friendly and nice and I hope everything is good with you. But the last memory I have of you is kind of just like a really negative thought of when you used to ignore me or when I thought we were really good friends. And then we never really spoke about it. And it still kind of makes me feel bad whenever I see you.

Right. And then at the least, she can feel weird when she sees you too. That's true too. Yeah. Although after our conversation last time, about just like getting on the phone with somebody or like confronting an issue of person. I really do think that's probably the best way to do it. I think she could ask her for the coffee over text, but like you said, then she is putting herself out there to be rejected again. But if that happens, then I think you're all signs point towards maybe you need to kind of do your own process, whether it's just journaling or going to therapy on your own to

figure out why this person had so much power over you. It's one person in a whole school. I'm not judging. I get it. I think most people would feel that way in this situation, but how to deal with it going forward, more of like a what am I doing here that I can kind of regain control.

Again, like I can think about this differently to regain control rather than needing to change the behavior of somebody else to regain control of my emotions. Yeah, that's a good tip for like an X too. Right. Yeah, because you can't change other people. Like she may ignore her tax.

She may not want to confront it. she may just want to pretend it's all good, and then you have no control over that. But I do like the idea. Push yourself. You never had the confrontation in college. Maybe it's just healing for you, regardless of how it turns out, for her to just have the confrontation now and see how it goes. And if she ignores it, then that's something for her to work with in her own growth either way. Right. Because a lot of these times, I mean, you give these people so much power over you. Right. Do you what I mean? It's like this looming, like this monster that's sort of just there, like, can affect your mood. And that was the hardest part about me for getting over like a breakup was like the idea that you could run into this person and it

could like ruin your whole week. Right. Ruin your whole day. Like you give them the power. And I feel like the ideal situation is that you see them and you don't feel anything. Right. That's what we all strive for is I see you and I don't feel good. I don't feel bad. You're just like any other person that I see. Right. is and how do you get to that point? You need to like deactivate the power that you give them. And sometimes that can happen through a conversation where like, you know, they explain themselves and they're just, they don't seem like this huge, scary, looming force.

Sometimes you never really get that and you have to do it on your own. Totally. Yeah. And I think there's growth to be had in either direction where you can decide how much space someone gets to take up in your mind. It's not about this girl. It's about how horribly lonely she felt at that time in her life. And she associates it with this person.

So, you know, I always say there's like a bunch of neutral stuff that you see all day, every day. People in your apartment buildings, dogs, buses, trees, flowers. You don't pay attention to any of it. All her attention is on this one person because this person is activating a memory in her mind that feels unpleasant. Right. So if you can realize this is about that memory, this isn't about this particular person. Because right now she's not doing anything to you. Totally.

Symbolizes this other thing. And that's a great point almost about like living in the present as opposed to the past. And I think people do that in both ways. Like if they feel like there was a time in their life when they were really happy and feeling really good about themselves, sometimes they, you know, they're overly fixated on that period or that association with that. If you see someone who's like obsessed with their college or obsessed with camp or obsessed with their sorority, it's like, why is that the case? It's because like that was the time that you felt the best about yourself and your life or something. And the same can happen in the negative way. It's like, why are you so fearful or avoidant of this person or this school or maybe like even anyone speaking about college in general?

It's like because that was a period where you felt the worst about yourself. Right. Totally. And I think you can take the power away from it by making it about yourself and about how you can grow from it instead of making it about this woman who just the sight of her probably triggers you. The same way, you know, the smell of a cologne makes you think about your ex or whatever it is. It's like there's like this, you know, memory link. So it's not about her. You know, if you can take, get the power away from her. Yes, you can try to get some closure by having a conversation with her. But I also think you can get some. some closure by just doing some work on this on your own. Yeah. I think that's great advice. Thanks again to our presenting sponsor, Essie. Essie has made it their mission to help combat loneliness with the power of colors and connection through their hands all in initiative. We as sisters have bonded over our love of Essie nail polish. We definitely try to get manicures together every time we see each other. And I always bring my own Essie nail polish because

if they don't have it, that's the only brand that I actually love. all the colors and I'm always happy to share. Thank you. I'll remember that statement. Yes, I will definitely share with you. I'm actually going to stock up on my, I have my summer colors and then I have my fall colors and my winter colors. So we're going to make our way through. All my colors are the same. I like them light. You don't change by season. You don't go for like a little wicked in the winter. I try. And then I'm like, I prefer lighter. I don't know. I just, I'm kind of like, the seasons should revolve around me. I don't know. Narciseise. tendencies. I just don't like the darker colors, but Fiji's always a winner. Yeah, so I'll,

I'll have that next time we're together when we go for our nails. But if you're feeling lonely, you're not alone. And Essie's here to help. For more information, visit s e.com slash colors and connection. That's E S-S-S-I-E dot com slash colors dash and-connection to find out more. Okay, let's get into our betchesist email of the week. I'll read it. Dear Naomi and Jordana, a huge fan of the podcast, thank you for your sage wisdom. I have a triggered moment I really need to help navigating. I'm turning 30 this year.

A few months ago, my husband suggested we go to a Billy Joel concert since he's playing in New York on my birthday. We live in Philly and we're both big Billy Joel fans. My husband shared the idea to make sure I wanted to spend my 30th birthday at the concert. I was so thrilled about the idea that I said, I'll get the tickets, you get the hotel. He said he wanted to buy the tickets for me, but I said I wanted floor seats and would be super expensive so I don't mind paying. I pulled the trigger and bought the concert tickets the following week. Fast forward, it's now the day before my birthday and my husband said, just to be clear, the trip to New York is your birthday gift.

It's romantic. Just to be clear is always a romantic way of phrasing things. Sounds like he's been through this before, perhaps. Maybe, yes. We'll be driving our shared car to the city, so the trip and my gift is the hotel. since I bought the concert tickets. I'm trying not to be a brat, but I'm so disappointed. We travel all the time, so this doesn't feel like a birthday gift. It feels like any other weekend where we travel to the city and do something fun. Plus, I'm turning 30, so I would have thought a little more effort would be put into

my birthday. The concert tickets were three times the cost of the hotel. It's not about the money, but it felt like he just paid for one-fourth of the trip and called it my birthday gift. I immediately expressed my disappointment. He said that I took the idea from him, and it was his idea to get the ticket, as my birthday gift, but I hastily bought the tickets before he could. I genuinely thought it was more of a, we'll spend your birthday this way than a gift, since obviously the tickets are much more expensive than the hotel. He then Venmoed me the money I spent on our tickets.

It's awkward. Do I have a right to feel triggered by this? I'm turning 30, so I am also likely experiencing some birthday blues, but I just wanted my husband to make me feel special. Paying for one night at a hotel when I paid for the floor seats at Billy Joel is just not making me feel great. then to basically have to ask him to venmo me for my birthday gift just feels pretty shitty. Is it weird that I bought my own birthday gift and my husband venmoed me for it?

Even the venmoing is silly since we were married with shared finances, but still feels pretty low effort. Do I have a right to feel triggered by this? Many thanks, Uptown girl, birthday blues batch. So this was submitted as a triggered, but I thought it was a much more interesting ethical dilemma. Yeah. So we included it as the ethical. Because I think this is an interesting quandary that I have found myself in personally. Okay. Do you care to elaborate? Sure. Yeah. So it's kind of like, I enjoy planning trips. I plan a lot of trips and vacations and like I love going away. I love like seeing a new city or doing something new or even just like relaxing on a beach. But I also like the idea of someone planning a trip for me. Right. So I've had this fight with Mike where it's even for like date nights or things like that where I kind of like I want him to plan it, but I want him to plan it exactly.

how I want to do it. Right? And like, I like things. I mean, it's to go by funny. It's all really comes full circle to our beginning conversation about control. So he's like, I would plan it,

but you seem to want things like a very particular way. And so I don't want to plan it and then you're disappointed in it. Or even when we first started dating, I remember he had this idea to go to like a winery on Long Island, Montauk. And then I like, I kind of just took the.

reins, I remember, and book the reservation the next day. I'm like, oh, like, we'll go to this place. And then he's like, you were, that was like my idea and you already, you took the idea and you like did it yourself and you almost like took it away from me. But I was like, well, I'm just like helping to plan this thing. That was the end of it. That's why he doesn't do it anymore. It was over. Right there. But so yeah, so it's, I guess in my head, I'm kind of like, what's the solution to this feeling of I want to both be taken care of, but also in the exact way that I want it to be done. Right. The email, it's just funny when I read this email, I was like this person, it kind of feels like

the same thing. Right. Yeah. I think you have to figure out, do I want this to be coming from him or do I want this exactly the way I want it? I just don't think you can have both. If he's going to do it, he's going to do it the way he's going to do it. And he probably wouldn't have gotten floor seats.

he probably would have gotten regular seats. And I think you have to, in that moment, appreciate the gesture of the thought that he had to find out that there was a concert on your birthday, buy the tickets, buy the hotel, and just appreciate that this was his way of expressing a gesture of care towards you and doing something that you want. Like if you would have let Mike pick the hotel and maybe it wouldn't have been the exact hotel that you wanted, but you would have gotten the effort and the initiative on his part to book it. I just don't think there's a way you can have your cake and eat it too.

I agree. Well, it's kind of like, and in my head, I'm kind of like, do I actually want him to plan it or do I just want him to want to plan it? Right. You know what I mean? Do I want to want to take care of me more than I want? Because there's very rare times when someone does something exactly how you'd want it or takes you to the exact restaurant that you wanted to go to on the exact time.

that you thought was the best most ideal time. And I agree with you. It's kind of like, I could have it the way I wanted and I'm just sort of like now the person who plans the trips and I don't really mind doing it and I can feel taken care of in different ways. Right. Exactly. Or I can, you know, not be that let go of some control and enjoy the gesture and not try to hijack it as me and the emailer have done. Right. Yeah, look, I, you know, I do think that I get where the husband's coming from on this, where he's like, this was my idea. I was kind of like, hey, I have a great idea for your birthday. You took control.

I don't know if he hit. This is probably worth a conversation between the two of them. So this type of thing doesn't continue to happen. He may have felt the same way Mike felt with you where he was like, I wanted to do this for you. And then you kind of didn't let me do this for you. So now I'm going to withdraw from this way of showing affection. Almost like I've seen with couples where the husband will be.

like I bought you, I went to the jewelry store, I spent like all this time picking out this piece of jewelry that I thought was going to be so beautiful. I paid for it. And either you literally told me you didn't like it and wanted to return it or you never wear it. And he's kind of like, it's from me. Like just you could wear it. It might not be like your fit. You probably disagree with this, I would guess. But like it might not be your favorite thing, but just wear it because it's a gesture from me and you love me. Like, you're not, maybe you don't wear it to like the most fashionista event that you're going to go to that year, but you could wear it on occasion just because it's signifying my

thought and effort to you. So I think that there's something to be said in a couple relationship about just accepting the gesture for what it is. Or if this isn't your love language, like you said, and you don't want him to do this and it doesn't make you feel good unless it's exactly the way you want it, then you can have that conversation too and say, look, don't buy me jewelry. It's just not something that is going to fill my love tank. My love language is X, Y, or Z, or trip planning or whatever it is. I think, and he probably felt, I could see him being, it sounds like he did feel hurt, but like, you stole my idea.

And then now I sat down. I researched when the concert was. I came up with an idea. He was probably super excited. And then he ends up getting like kind of yelled at at the end of the day. Yeah, I could see what the idea of him withdrawing because she kind of again hijacked the plan and decided that she was going to be the one, like that she wanted those seats and he wouldn't have gotten those seats. I think a lot of this is about expectations versus reality essentially where it's like what would have been an ideal. Floor seats. Him to pay for floor seats for her to have confidence that he was going to pick the right seats. Like if she knew that he was going to buy the floor seats, she would have probably let him. do it. But she knew like he probably wasn't and that's what she wanted. Right. But yeah. And then I guess

you think putting myself in her shoes, it's like, okay, I didn't marry someone who's obsessed with floor seats. Right. That's just kind of like, is that something that I can get over? Is that something that I can accept? Right. Or even she could have communicated. Another option is she could have said in that moment, that sounds amazing. If we're going to go to Billy Joel on this one night, it would mean I would love to sit as close as possible. Like I'll contribute to. to some of it. Like, I really want to sit. I really want to get floor seats. It would make the experience so much better for me. Maybe she could have said that. I think she just got worked up and bought it, not thinking about that that might have been offensive. I think he withdrew from the whole thing.

Like, he could have made a scrapbook for her. He could have done something else to, you know, to commemorate her birthday, you know, did something thoughtful or whatever it was on top of the weekend. But my feeling is he was offended and hurt that she took over his plan and he perhaps kind of withdrew from the whole thing. So I think she could have communicated a little better at the beginning and said, oh my God, that's a great idea. If we're going to do this, I would love, are you okay with getting floor seats? Like, I would love that and kind of letting him sort of have that piece of it too. But I get it. I'm not trying to say I don't understand why. I think the thing that really made her is not the fact that, you know, he only spent X amount of money.

I think if he would have bought the one night at the hotel and maybe would have gotten some kind of a special meal for her or did something special in some other way, she probably wouldn't have cared as much, I think. I think she just felt like it was like, wom, wamp, wamp. Yeah. It's hard to get that feeling when you try to control a lot of things. It's hard to feel let yourself be specially surprised and pleasant. into whatever it is.

If you control, if you're like very particular or if you're kind of controlling over things, it's hard to get that feeling of they killed it. Totally. It's a lot more pressure. A lot of pressure. As opposed to someone who's just like easily, you know, impressed or entertained or doesn't, you know, feel. Because she says, we go on these trips all the time.

Right. So on his, so it's like, okay, what is he going to do to make it feel so amazing to you? But I agree with what you said about vocalizing. your expectations, even though in your mind, it's like, oh, do I seem bratty by saying that? But it's like, is it better to seem bratty? And again, maybe you are a little bratty. Maybe that's just part of who you are. And that's not a big deal.

Like, unless it is a big deal to the person, but they married you. So they must know that in some senses over you. I think a lot of people, we get this question a lot on you up about like the engagement ring. Like, how do I let him know that I want like a nice ring or I want like this matters to me who are like, do you what I mean? Because without seeming materialistic, where it's kind of like, you are a little materialistic.

You care a little bit. You're not the least materialistic. That doesn't mean you're a terrible person. That doesn't mean that you're awful, but that's who you are. And so, like, you're the kind of person who needs the floor seats. You don't want to go to the concert

if you don't have the floor seats. Except that about yourself and vocalize it because that's kind of just part of who you are. And if they're marrying you or if they're married to you in this case, they should know that. Right. Especially with the engagement ring.

So that's a problem for him. You should know beforehand. Right. You should know that you care about that. And again, it doesn't make you a bad person for caring about that. Some people don't care about that. That's also not a problem.

Some people do. So if you're the kind of person that cares, that's something to know. Own it. Totally. Yeah. I think this makes me think too about, I always say the honeymoon period and a relationship ends

when the expectations of what, what you want from your partner sort of overload the spontaneity and just the enjoyment of the relationship in and of itself. So like in the beginning, if this was when they were first dating, she would have probably just been thrilled that he wanted to get Billy Joel tickets. Right. Went out and got, had the idea for the weekend and did the whole thing. And it would just be like, oh my God, I'm dating this guy.

It was the coolest thing. He got Billy Joel tickets. We went to the concert. we stayed overnight in a hotel, it was amazing. But over the course of time, that honeymoon period sort of fades away because now it's like, well, of course he's going to take me away. You know, like, of course we're going to go on vacation. But where is he going to take me?

Right. So you just keep like kind of upping the bar and at a certain point, somebody can't really keep up. So I think you have to just check your expectations and you just say like he's making a gesture. If you need more from him, think about why you're. what you're really looking for. I don't think it was him,

like she said, it's not about the money. I think it was she was looking for more of a gesture of an effort, but he did kind of make the effort and she didn't like it, you know, so. Yeah, he did come up. That's a very interesting point about like almost the spontaneity

versus like the real, like the practicality of what's going on. You get much more into like how practical and what less wowed by the things that you would be. in early. Totally. You start to expect it. And then it's like,

oh my God, you didn't get floor seats. It's like, whoa, you know, like if this would have been the first two months that you were dating,

you would never even be thinking about the types of tickets that you got. Right. And I get it. I'm not judging her, but I just think it's a phenomenon in relationships

that's worth looking at. Totally. And I've been her, so I don't judge her either, but I can see, in my own sense, why it's not maybe the best approach. But it's also funny,

I think I heard this once about like marriage or long-term relationships that like the way to be happy in those is to focus on like what your partner does bring to the table instead of what they don't. Like everyone has negative things about them and negative attributes. There's no one who doesn't have anything negative that they do or a tendency or a habit. But to focus like if you focus on those things, you're going to be in a bad relationship or in a bad marriage. But if you focus on. What they do bring with the positive things that they're bringing, it's really all about perspective, almost like everything else. I totally agree. Where you put your mental focus is where you live your life. So if you're on social media, seeing that someone else is sitting at floor seats to Billy Joel,

and now you look over at your husband and you're annoyed with him, then you're going to be, you're going to live in an annoyed space. And you're in the average regular seats. Yes. But if you just focus on the fact that he bought the seats and he bought the hotel or that he had the idea for the seats, You have a husband that took you away for your 30 and had this huge idea and was so excited to take you, whatever. Totally.

Even just his energy of his excitement to come and have this idea is really cute and sweet, you know, and wanting to spend time with you and do this stuff together. So I totally agree. If you want one major tip, I agree with you that if you want to improve your relationship, pay attention to what you're focusing on. Are you focusing on the things that they're not doing? Are you focusing on the things that they are doing? and just try to make that shift for a couple of days and see if it changes the energy in your relationship. Agreed.

And the problem would be if you tried to focus on the things they are doing and you can't think of anything. Yes. That would probably be where you might want to reevaluate the relationship in general. Totally. For sure. And it's a good indicator too. If there's nothing happening in that avenue, then that's good to realize.

But I think a lot of people, it's just human tendency. You want what you don't have. But that's not where you're not going to. be happy if you're living in that. And now if you're just allowing your mind to go to that place that it naturally wants to go, most people are not going to be happy like that. You have to force your mind into the place where it doesn't naturally want to go. Right. And they do say happiness is a choice. Totally. Choose to be happy. Let's play Triggered. All right. Let's do it. I'll read the first one. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I have a triggered situation I wanted to get your judgment on.

Originally, I was low on the trigger scale, but once I got home and relayed the story to my roommate, she insinuated maybe I should be even more triggered. So maybe she was not focusing on the negative. And then the roommate did it for her. Got a little nudge from her roommate. Yesterday, I texted my boyfriend, hey, do you want to play tennis tomorrow? He quickly responded, I do, but I'm taking the week off because of my knee pain. He had briefly mentioned slight knee pain before, so I took his word and we moved on.

The next day, on my way home from work, I called him to chat. We talked briefly about our day and he mentioned that his knee was feeling better, but he was going to continue taking it easy. I wrapped up the conversation by telling him that I needed to get changed and go for a run. About an hour later, I was enjoying my run through the park when I look over and see my boyfriend playing tennis with his roommate. I was obviously surprised, but thought it was funny that I caught him in the act. I texted him a gift saying, liar, to which you later responded with, ha ha, I played great.

When I got home, I told my roommate what had happened thinking it was funny, but she seemed a little shocked and said if she were me, she would be upset. The most annoying part of the whole thing was my boyfriend's explanation for how this all happened. He said he let the shock of how painless his knee felt clouded his ability to communicate. How triggered would you both be? Thanks. Tennis anyone, betch. I would be very insulted by this. Yeah, same.

What did he say? The shock of how. good his, how painless his knee felt clouded his ability to communicate. That would be, I agree, that would be the most annoying part of this whole thing. Yeah. It's funny when one of these fights happened and I'm like, here's how you should have responded. Like that would have made me happen. Right, let's hear it.

I'm not controlling or anything. Okay. I think you should have been like, oh my God, like, it's not what it looks like. I happen to be feeling better. I happen to be feeling better. You know, he asked me, and I know I said I should have gone with you, but don't take it personally. Like, let's go tomorrow or something. Totally.

Yeah. That response was so strange. That's what I would do. If I would just be, especially if I were caught, I'd be like, what else could you do? Right. Yeah. I mean, look, to play devil's advocate, let's say he just, you know, he was walking around. He was like, oh, my gosh.

my knee just like suddenly feels better. This is amazing. And then right after that moment, the friend calls and says, do you want to play tennis? He says, you know what? Oh my gosh, my knee feels amazing. Let's go. And he didn't want to feel like he had to check in with his girlfriend in that moment and ask permission to go because she was already out on a run.

So she wasn't going to play tennis with him. Fine. Yes. Let's just say. I'm cool with this scenario. Right. Sure. So he goes, he plays tennis.

Like you said, then she catches him and texts him liar. Right. So I have a feeling in that moment he was probably got that little like heart palpitation feeling of like she's mad about this. But chose to respond with a joking response like, ha ha, I played great. She seemed to accept that. So he just kind of went with it. But I agree. The scenario itself isn't the worst thing.

The fact that he didn't say exactly what you said, which is I'm so sorry. I can see why you'd be offended. This is how it went down. You had already left for your run. I really wanted to play. I was feeling very spry and great, and I just wanted to play some tennis, and I really apologize, we'll play tomorrow. I agree with you.

That's exactly how he should have responded. His response is the most annoying thing. But yeah, I would be annoyed if my husband said, like, I'm in too much pain to play tennis, and then I literally saw him playing tennis with somebody else. Maybe she's really bad at tennis, and he doesn't want to tell her. Now is his chance to tell her that. Yeah, I would be annoyed. I agree with the roommate.

She should be a little more annoyed, but I think she could say it in a way that is, you know, hurt my feelings. I wanted to play tennis with you. Yeah, totally. What would you give this? I'd give it a five. Yeah, I mean, I think between the catching him and the act and then his answer. Yeah, the answer is annoying. I think I would give this like a closer to a six.

Sixth is fair. But yeah, this is an opportunity for him to learn how to communicate a little bit better and own his own actions. Right. I think about her feelings. Yeah. If you bring this back up with him, which I think you should, you could just say, look, it's okay that you did it. Maybe you really did, you know, go down the way you said. But next time, I would appreciate just a little bit of validation. Right.

I could see why you would be upset by that. Right. And honesty about how it went down. The shock of how painless. his knee felt clouded his ability to communicate. That's very annoying, yeah. I wouldn't break up with him over this, but I agree. It warrants.

He's going to get a lecture. Yeah. He's talking to. All right, let's do another one. Okay. Hi, Jordana and Naomi, I have a triggering situation for you. I'm 29 and haven't dated anyone for longer than a year since college. Recently, I was seeing a guy for a couple of months and it was going really well

until the guy ended things out of the blue, telling me that he knew I'd been hurt by a lot of men in the past, so he wanted to protect me from getting hurt again. I told him that I felt like he was using things I'd shared with him in moments of vulnerability against me. And instead of apologizing, he doubled down, saying, well, those stories you shared with me like that guy who dated you for six months and then dumped you right before your trip together made me so sad. I would never want to add to the pain you've been through. He isn't the first guy to say something like this to me, even though I make an effort not to seem like a victim when I talk about my past dating experiences. So am I crazy for being so upset about this? How triggered can I be?

Sincerely a triggered bitch. What do you think? I think that he probably doesn't see a future with her and wants to end it before he hurts her too much. I really think that that's what it is. I mean, sometimes she's looking for a different answer about why he broke up with her. If you go a layer deeper, if he was really going to be totally honest, he would have said, I just don't see this going anywhere long term. And I wanted to end it before we got any deeper so I wouldn't hurt you again.

I think he probably could have dragged it on for another six months if she hadn't shared that. I agree. I think it's saying that the vulnerability worked for her in this situation because she was so vulnerable and she expressed that she really has felt hurt by people who lead her on or who, you know, who don't take her feelings into account. He's saying, okay, because of that, I'm going to waste less of your time and get out of this before it gets too deep if I don't see it going anywhere. He's almost to, it never seems like someone's doing you a favor when they break up with you. Right. I would say that's probably the last thing you're thinking about. Totally. But what he's saying is that you were right to be vulnerable. So I don't think she should

think of this as like, oh, I shouldn't be sharing how upset I get when things don't work out. I think it's a proof of concept. Totally. I agree. I think that this was the best thing because what he probably would have done if you hadn't opened up is just continued hanging on, maybe until he was interested in somebody else or, you know, you had a big fight. A lot of times it's just good enough for now, which I don't think you would have wanted to be in something that he was like, okay, this is good enough for now, but I know this isn't going anywhere. You're 29. You probably are looking for something, I would assume maybe wrongly, but I'm assuming maybe you want something that's going to be more long term. And so I think that being exactly what you said, I totally

agree with that. And I agree. I think if she has some space from it and she's not in it, I could see why she'd be like, well, I told you how I felt, and that was supposed to make you us closer together instead of giving you the idea to leave me. But vulnerability, I think, can go either way, but it's, that's why it's so, that's why it's a good idea. It's a good idea, because it creates an intimacy where the other person can make a decision based on now knowing that about you. Right. You shared with him. He knows you. He knows what, what hurts you. It really would have been so much worse if he would have stayed for another three months and then broke up with you, you know, nine months in without, you know, you're kind of

like, I thought everything was great. And now of a sudden he dumped me nine months in. So now you have more pain. I would rate this low. I think that he did the right thing. It sucks to be broken up with. But I think he's probably being truthful with how he feels. Agreed. I'd give this like a two because of that. I mean, I think it's very painful, but I don't know that it's like offensive. And I think it's almost like the offensiveness scale. I don't think this is that offensive. more than the triggered scale. Yeah. I could, look, I could see her feeling like, you know, he used it against me.

But if he didn't use this, he would have just said something else that was more hurtful. Right. And this is honest. So I think that that's, that's fine. All right. Let's do another one. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. Love the podcast and look forward to it every week.

My boyfriend and I have been together for two years. It's been smooth sailing since the beginning and it's the healthiest relationship either of us have ever had. However, we recently had a rougher patch where our sex life wasn't very active and we overall felt like we lost our spark. We wondered if there might be something missing in our relationship and we're considering breaking up. We decided to go to couples therapy to get some help on analyzing the situation and to get some tips on how to improve our sex life.

However, to our surprise, the therapist basically told us that we should break up and that if we don't have the X factor or spark, no amount of work on the relationship will make it appear. The therapist even compared our relationship to her first marriage as a teenager in a very strict religious community and said that she did not have the X factor with that first husband, but that she has now found a passionate over the heels in love with her second marriage out of her religious community. To be clear, religion was not at all part of our discussions and neither of us is religious. This advice caused us to break up, but we very quickly got back together as we both feel that there are a lot of good foundational things in our relationship. Great communication, deep emotional

connection, respect. We have fun together and we rarely argue. And since then, we have successfully worked on our sex life and passion. But this advice still haunts us to this day, especially as we begin considering marriage. What do you think of this advice? Dr. Naomi, what do you think about the therapist comparing our relationship to her own personal life? Should I be triggered? Thanks, a confused betch. Do you ever tell a couple to break up? I have never told a couple to break up. No, I don't think that I would ever tell a couple to break up. I think if we were doing, and this sounds like this was pretty shortly after they started therapy.

I have, if I've been doing therapy with a couple for many, many months slash years, have said things along those motivational interviewing lines of, it sounds like neither one of you are ready to make the changes that you need to make, to make the other person happy. You know, one option is to discuss what life might look like if you were separated. That is the closest I'd ever come to telling a couple to break up. It's a very therapist self-disclosure is a very tender, issue that you have to really very thoughtfully explore as a therapist or, you know, do very intentionally

with a lot of thought before you bring it into the room with a couple. And you really have to think a lot about why you're doing it. There's an acronym that therapist that I was taught to use, wait, W-A-I-T, why am I telling this? So I think you really have to think clearly, you know, I never want to judge another therapist. I wasn't in the room. I don't know what she was doing. but this seems like she. Projecting. Yeah. Yeah, when you tell a patient what to do,

you're not really fostering their independence. You know, like if I'm just going to sit here and tell you break up, you're not really teaching someone or helping them learn how to make their own decisions in these types of situations. I feel like therapists rarely give you straight advice. Like, you should leave that job.

You should leave that guy. Like they're usually kind of like the goal is to give them enough tools to they make their own informed. decision, right? Totally. I mean, giving advice, I rarely do it, like you said. There's a couple of occasions, like I've said to you before, like when you're going through a breakup, I will give the advice of like no communication, don't look at social media, like those types of behavioral intervention. Right. But not like decision, decision based advice decisions. Take the job. Don't take the job. You know, break up, don't break up. Those are things that somebody really has to come to on their own.

I will say sometimes to couples that in the beginning, I will be clear with them that I have a bias towards trying to keep couples together. And that is sort of my bias. And I'm just being honest with myself as a human and honest with the couple that my first goal in therapy is to try to see if I can do what I can to keep a couple together. So if what you're looking for is trying to get out of this, you have to be clear with me that that's what you're looking to do or we have to set that as a goal and I have to kind of reset my own natural inclination as a couple's therapist. So do people ever come to you and they're like, you know, we were trying to separate or trying to get divorced, but we want to do it in the healthiest way possible. Yes, that happens sometimes.

So they come at it with the initial, like a lot of times it's like we're already kind of separated or were separated and living in the same house, and we need to navigate, like, how to, how to do this. Sometimes if there's financial issues that don't allow one person to move out, they want to be able to navigate exactly like you said. So that's something that they would come in with, or I will say to them, like, if you're not trying to stay together, let me know and we'll work on it, but if left to my own devices, my inclination is to try to keep you together. If this therapist has an inclination, I guess, towards making sure that they spend the least amount of of time trying to fix something that she thinks might not be fixable. But I, you know,

this sounds like she's really, I mean, I don't want to judge. Sounds like you didn't vibe. Yeah. The sounds like you didn't vibe. And she has a very specific personal experience that there's no way that that's not going to cloud your judgment. So when you're, when you're sharing something with a patient, you have to really understand that. They are not you. Just because you had one experience, doesn't mean that they're going to have that same experience. In fact, I think lack of passion or a drop in sex life is natural. Natural. That's going to happen. I don't think that that's a reason to break up, especially if you've spent little to no time working on it. You know, it's one thing. If you've been working on it

in therapy for five years and it's still not coming back, then you could be at the point where you say, okay, we've been working on this for five years in therapy. This isn't coming back. We're just not and we both value this very highly. Right. Some people don't. I also think of is the other thing. Like some couples are like, yeah, that's a really important part of our relationship is like having this extremely active sex life and we want to get that back. And I think other couples are less, you know what I mean? Like just like anything else, like that's important in your relationship.

Like some people value it more than others. And it's kind of about each individual couple and how much it means to them and how much they can work on it. Totally. I mean, look, this couple was coming in with like we've lost the spark and we're looking to get it back, which is like, if that wasn't something. that existed, couple's therapists would probably not really have much of a job. That's like a big big thing. People come in and want to work on, like, how to get that passion back. I could see why

she's triggered by this because I think the therapist did seem like she was putting a lot of her own issues. And now they probably would feel very judged by her, almost like once she puts her own personal stuff on it, now they have to consider her feelings and like, well, we're going to be like, disappointing her in some way if we choose to stay or she's not really going to be have an eye towards working on this because her solution is to cut and run. Yeah. And then I see what she was saying about that always being in the back of her head. Like to say that to someone is sort of to now cloud every decision that they make regarding this person to put your own personal feelings on it. And that's from a licensed person who's supposed to be there to help you work on it. I would say

that does more damage to the relationship than the initial issue. Totally. And I think 100%. And I think when therapists are using self-disclosure, whether it's about their own personal relationships or just like relating to an experience that someone's had, something like that, I think it's very important to make it clear

that this is a personal experience and this is not coming from an academic or professional research place. because of the nature of the relationship where I am a professional, I have studied, I have degrees, there is an expectation that the help that I'm giving you, the advice, the direction is based on some type of scientific study. It's not just because I went through that or because I feel like that. So I think if you're going to do this as a therapist and you're going to self-disclose personal information about yourself. If you are, which you have to do again very carefully, you have to make it very clear. This is my experience. This is not research-based. There's no research that shows

if couples lose the spark within the first six months of their marriage that they don't end up happy or they'll never regain it or they're not capable of finding. That's not a research-based finding. That's a personal experience that she had. So because of the professional nature, there is a rightful expectation that what you're doing is going to be aligned with some type of academic protocol. Right. So if you ever need to go back to a therapist, maybe pick a different one. Yeah, for sure. Don't want that cloud your view. But anyway, yeah, that's it for this week's oversharing podcast. Thank you guys. Leave us a five-star review if you like the show on Apple or Spotify and we will see you next week. And again, if you want to email us, email oversharing

at betches.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 646363, 663, 6294. And we'll see you next week. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Murales Pico and Rebecca Souselz McCaffee. Editing by Marley-Frilyleander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com. We'll leave us a voicemail at 646363-66-6294. Betches