Oversharing - Has My Germ Phobia Gone Too Far?

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

As time moves quickly by and her children grow up, Dr. Naomi makes changes to the family room at home that reflect everyone's current needs, including her own. A daughter is stressed out by her mother's bad driving but doesn't know how to tell her aging parent it might be time to ditch the car and start calling ubers. Caught in a pickle, a listener asks if there is a polite way to ditch her friends at a comedy show after being given better seats to the same event. One Betch’s germ phobia is starting to take over all her thoughts and she asks Dr. Naomi for an intention to quell the constant anxiety. After her father dropped the ball on a contract, a woman is triggered that he didn't think to ask for help even though she is in fact a contract lawyer here. A bride is left upset after a childhood friend canceled her wedding RSVP and the hosts debate the circumstances of the seemingly last minute bail. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello, welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. How's it going?

Going good. Coming off the weekend. It was a pretty slow weekend. So I felt really good. I did a lot of cleaning. and organizing. And it was kind of bittersweet. We have, we've always had like a toy room, um, in our house upstairs.

And it's been just cluttered with toys that the kids don't really play with toys anymore. Not even Brooks. Yeah. I mean, he. What's the, when do toys become? You know, it's, it makes me sad. I'm sad even thinking about it. I feel like in some way, some of these toys.

toys require some level of imagination that I just think is like pretend play that I think he doesn't well, that's not true. He'll engage in pretend play if he's pretending to be like in the NFL or he's pretending to be a hockey player or but he doesn't, you know, we had lots of figures and figurines and action figures and little dollhouses. And so we don't use any of that. And I think I was clinging to it a little bit. Like, oh, maybe one day they'll just want to use this stuff again. I didn't get rid of everything.

I kept some stuff. But if I'm being honest, he's into screens and video games and playing sports. That's it for Brooks. And the girls don't really play with toys. So we, but what I do like about it is we have a pretty large space. And I cleared it all out. And now they'll play like ball up there. They'll play.

Okay. Like monkey in the middle or they'll play. I put it personally for all you volleyball, ex volleyball players out there, I put a rebounder up there. And I, a rebounder. It's like a bounce back. It's like a, you can.

can throw a ball at it and it bounces back to you. So if you want to play catch by yourself, basically, but anyone out there who is a volleyball player, former volleyball player probably knows the game Pepper, which is like where two people go back and forth doing like bump set, spike. And so I can do that by myself with my rebounder. So that sometimes is like part of my exercise routine. And now I have all this space. So it's more of like a movement space. And and he just likes to move. He doesn't like to sit and play with a toy. So we cleared it out.

And I really like the space. I think they really like it. I called our sister, Talia, to just be like, show her the space and be like, look what I did. She's like,

what a grinch. That's so depressing. Where are all the toys? Like she was like, but they really like it better like this, which is, I think anything off a screen is like, kind of all things equal.

Thank you. I would imagine. That's what I like to think of it. It's a movement space. They can play like Brooks will have friends over and they'll kind of like wrestle around on the floor and there. And I don't have to. Part of it was he was having friends over and they were like wrestling or running or playing ball. And then there was like this little mini foosball thing.

It wasn't like a it was just like a whatever. It had had sharp corners. I was just like, someone's going to smash their head on this. Let's just clear this whole room out and you guys can run around in it. I think it's good that you accepted the new phase. Yes. Probably less clutter. I'm going to send you a picture.

I'm so relaxed with it. We have so many emails, probably like 100 emails of people complaining about like their mother-in-laws or other people just bringing too many toys or like item shit into their house. Yes. You're not alone. That's where 75% of this stuff came from. Like my mother-in-law brought them this mini foosball table that they played with like three times. And even though it's mini, it takes up so much space.

It has sharp edges. She didn't say, hey, do you think the kids would like this? She just gifted it to them. Amongst many small little, I get it. It's a grandma's way of. showing love and it takes three clicks on Amazon to get a bunch of junk and then give it to the kids and then the parent has to deal with it. Right. And then feel like you're like, you know, they get excited when they see it. Yes. So I finally, after 13 years of collecting random stuff,

brought out like six bags to the garbage. So that felt really nice. But yeah, there was a little sadness and throwing away some of this old stuff time keeps marching and you can now give all that stupid shit that no one wants to my kids yes oh i could go back through the bags i could get all the goodies out yeah it's too bad you live too far away but yeah and you speak about it so fondly it really makes you want all of it no i will try to give thoughtful I also, I think, I mean, you know, the holiday gift season is over, but I'm a big fan of experience gifts because they don't take up space. It's a fun thing to do. It feels a little lame to give someone like a, I don't know, like a rock climbing gift card because it's not, there's something about like opening a present for a kid, which is I think what the grandparents want to see is like they're opening this present and they get to see it.

Right then there's an instant gratification, but then a long-term dumping. But there's a, yeah, there's an instant gratification to like, though, like, I'm taking you to the basketball game. Right. Totally. Or at least when you're going. Totally. To an extent. But I guess it's Christmas, you're not going that day.

So that's the annoying part. It's like you want to give the gift, but then you're not going to, you have to wait to actually book the thing. Yeah. No, Christmas season. and does, and again, we're now in, like, the end of February. But it does kind of make me feel like the older I get, I think, or like even on my birthday, any occasion where I'm getting stuff, like, it does, the older I get, the less joy I feel from receiving, like, a physical gift.

Right. I think an experience is, like, such a better thing. And I think some people, I think that's just for me. And some people actually, like, really love getting, like, a thoughtful bag or clothing article or like new shoes or something like that. And even when I buy that stuff for myself, I like, or even when I'm ordering it online, like it feels, there's like a little excitement when I order it or when I like first get it. And then it's like gone very, very quickly. Yeah. And then you have this, you know, you have this clutter and I do get it because once I

cleaned out, I mean, I went on a spree. I did that. I did a couple of closets. I cleaned off the kitchen counters that had so much crap. There's there is like a soothing feeling because every time you look at the items there and there also is I think for people that are partnered. There is like one person whose job it is to find the place for all the things that are on the that are laying around. So it just feels like a reminder of a task undone constantly when you have lots of cluttery items around.

And you don't use so many. Yeah. It feels so calming to just have clean space. So bright side, but a little depressing, if I'm being honest, different moving into that new phase. That's all. That's just like the, I mean, I think we've talked about this book before, the life changing magic of tidying up.

Yes. It's like it does, it feels really good. You like thank the item for everything it gave you. Yeah. Oh, I forgot that part. Just throw it. You just toss it right in the garbage. Maybe I would feel better if I did it in a more therapeutic way of thanking the items.

I just dumped them in a bag. Right. And this book is like ruthless. I told you. She's like if you've got like a bunch of developed pictures, you keep like one from like every occasion. You want to. Yeah. That's intense.

All right. Well, that was my weekend. Anything interesting on your end or should you get to? other people's problems. Let's get into some other people's issues. Why not? Let's do it. You guys have some issues as always. All right. Let's get into our first email. But before we do that, we have a, if you want to leave a voicemail, you can call 646-363-66. 6294. Or you can email us at oversharing at batches.com. Send us all your emails. We love getting these emails. There's always so interesting and I think like relatable.

So thank you to the listeners for writing in. Also, if you want to subscribe to this podcast, you can get every episode a day early and ad free. And you get two bonus episodes a month every second and fourth Thursday of the month. Or you can join one of Dr. Naomi's therapy groups. Yes, come find us, Naomi Bernstein.com. pretty much everyone that reaches out within a few weeks, I can usually find you a group. So, you know, that works for your schedule depending on how much flexibility you have.

But come find us. It's a great space. We love having new group members. It really is amazing to see how curious people are. Like when someone new joins, everyone really is looking forward to getting to know them and so happy to hear them share and get involved. It's just a place where people want to hear what you are really going through and not the niceties of, you know, what you're supposed to say when people say, how are you? It's like, this is the place where you really say how you're really doing and everyone's there for it and wants to hear it. So come join us, Naomi Bernstein.com.

Yeah, and subscribe. I save all of my own therapeutic stuff for the subscription episodes. So. Yes. hear us be triggered. Yes, exactly. Get to do a little bit more of that. And then you guys can rank our triggers. Oh, that would be a good one. Yeah, you can leave it in the comments, but you think there are our triggers are. But yeah, we'll have two new bonus episodes every month. Let's get into our emails. I'll read our first overshare. All right. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana.

I'm writing for guidance about my mom and her driving. I come from a big family. some siblings live near her, while others, including me, live far away. My mom is a wonderful mom and grandma, but she's always been a terrible driver, and in the past few years, it has gotten worse. In the last year, she's had several minor accidents like backing into parked cars and vendor vendors, which really upset and stress her out. Recently, she's been talking about wanting a newer car with more safety features, which she likely can't afford. I helped her financially with her current car a few years ago, so this has been stressful to hear. I also keep wondering whether a new car would actually solve the problem or just mean a more expensive car is involved in the same accidents.

I've considered whether suggesting a trial period without a car might make sense. She doesn't drive far or often has friends and family nearby and ride shares are easy to access and possibly cheaper than car insurance at this point. That said, I worry about taking away her sense of independence. I also worry about what this would mean for my siblings who live close by and how much responsibility would fall. on them to drive her places, and whether that's fair or sustainable. How do you talk to a parent about their driving without making them feel criticized or defensive? Is it reasonable to suggest driving less or not at all, or am I overstepping? I'd really appreciate your advice and how to navigate this.

Thank you, a give my mom a driver's test back. That's funny. She, like, wants someone else to take the license away. Yes. Yes. Yes. I honestly, I do think people would be annoyed, but it is kind of crazy. that you just get your driver's license when you're 17.

And that's it for then you can go through, you can go through health issues and all types of different things and cognitive decline. And I get it. They don't want to come in and start taking all the grandma's driver's licenses away. Like it feels kind of cruel. But maybe a road test every 30 years. Right. Every 30 years.

And then not even like take it away, but you have to take a refresher class or something. or you have to do something to just kind of get a little instruction or refresher before you can get back on the road. Or the insurance companies could mandate it if you have like, like she says she's several accidents. Like if I were an insurance company, I'd be like, I'll insure you if you retake the road test. Right. Right. Right. Well, that could be a good segue for her. It's especially if, you know, if she is asking, if the mom is asking the listener for help with this car. I think maybe a good, especially if she's going to be contributing financially to it,

which she did to her last one, she could say something like, you know, a couple of things I think she can do to talk to her about this. One is be curious and just kind of see what lay all the options on the table with her mom. Like it seems like you had this thing. It really stresses you out. You have to get it fixed. And one option is to get one, an updated car that has, you know, these backup camera. Like I know my car has a thing where if you get too close, it automatically breaks for you, which some people hate,

but I could see in this situation maybe that being helpful. I love it. As someone who's not that great of a driver, I like. That feature works for me all the time. Yeah. So you might have been grandma, if not for that.

Like you might have knocked into a couple of things. For sure. So I don't think it's, that genuinely might help if a lot of what she's doing is like little backup bumping into things. I do think it genuinely might be helpful. But I think she can lay out the question as kind of like, okay, here are our options.

One, you want this newer car, but maybe you can, you know, take this course to offset the cost and it'll bring your insurance down. I'm sure any driving class you take probably brings your insurance down. I've taken ones that have done that. Then that's a way to get her to take a driving class, which just might make her a little bit more aware and vigilant and refreshing all the rules of the road and reaction time. And so that's an option.

Or she could say, you know, do you still like driving? It seems like it's really struck. Like I would open this up at first as just like a dialogue. Right. Because I would imagine, even if she doesn't like driving, there's probably a sense of like, if I stop driving, does this mean I'm like on the way out? Yeah. not even like almost so much independence, but just more like, I can't drive. I'm not going to be driving anymore for the rest of my life.

Like there's like a. Yeah, it's like another phase like throwing out all the toys. It's like getting rid of my car. It's like a different phase of life. Probably feels very existential, I would imagine. Maybe she doesn't know how easy it is to get an Uber. A lot of older people don't or a ride share or something like that. There's probably a sense of that.

I don't know the independence thing I guess I kind of get. But like if you can call an Uber, whenever you want, you're still pretty independent. I do think it's more like, what does this mean? Right. Than the actuality of, yeah, especially if she's going locally in town. It's really nice. I've had this with my mother-in-law where I keep thinking, like, I need to just sit down with her and like order an Uber with her, which never really happens because you're like, if I'm here, why am I ordering you an Uber?

Right. but it's kind of going through the process together and like actually sitting down, showing her how to do it, like getting to the point of where she actually like gets in the Uber and goes to the place where she wants to go and then calls it. I'd have to like spend two hours going to the grocery store with her in an Uber, which feels like when am I ever going to really want to do that when we can just drive? But I think that's kind of what might be helpful in this situation is like just doing it

with them one time. so they see exactly how it works. And then she might be like, yeah, that actually was really great and easy. And it was like $8 to get to the grocery store or whatever it is. Maybe it feels worth it to her not to have to deal with it. But if you don't even know, then it feels like, oh, what a big deal. And I have to, you know, whatever it is.

Yeah. And she could, maybe there's also like a guilt that she lives further away and the other siblings live closer. I think she could talk to the siblings who live closer and be like, what do you think of this? Right. Plan also. Totally. Could you, if she needs to go somewhere where it's more, I don't know what situation that would be. If there's like occasional times, you could drive her places, how would you feel about that? Yeah, I definitely think the first step, because it is sensitive, she's right. Like you said, I think it feels like now I'm at the end of my life. Like I'm one of

those people that can no longer drive. So I do think it's a sensitive topic. She's right. And I would just start it off as like, you seem stressed about this. Here are some options that I've thought about. And one of them being the new car with the new safety features. That's one of them. Other ones being like taking a driver's course, learning how to use Uber and seeing what

she has to say. She might not be as opposed, especially I think there is this human nature. piece where you don't want to be told or forced or pushed. It feels better if she feels like it's her idea. No, I agree. Let her, let her suggest it. Or you like lay all the options out there and let her, you know, see what she does with that. But I do think worst case, these new cars with these safety features, like even when you're changing lanes, it'll like stop you from changing lanes if there's a car in that spot.

So it might actually help. Right. I get to how she's like, it might actually help, but I'm going to be the one paying for this new car. And if it doesn't, then I've already committed to a however many years long lease. Yeah, totally. Yep. So I get where she's like, okay, if it was like trial. Yes, that she's paying for.

And if the mom can't afford it herself, it's like I can see why she's, because ordinarily it's kind of like, you can suggest something. And if the person doesn't, I see what kind of position she's in because she's like, I am sure part of her is like, well, why do I have the right to tell my mom she can and cannot drive? But if she's paying, I do think there's a sense of like, I understand you want to try this. Right. I don't know if I'm down for the experiment on my dime. Yep. Yeah. This is hard.

Aging parents are hard. It's hard to feel like that role reversal where you're turning into the parent and your parents turning into the child. It's like an odd thing that does tend to happen. And it's uncomfortable for everybody. So I really feel you on this, but I would start it with just an open-ended. What do you think some options are? I've thought of these options.

What are some options that you think? And then not an easy position. All right. Let's do a betchaicist. Do you want to read this one? I will read this. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, big fan of the show. Been a listener since day one.

I have a betchaist for you. My husband and I recently bought tickets to see Nate Bargazzi, a popular comedian, if you've never heard of him. We bought tickets with another couple who we have gone to see him with before. We bought the cheapest tickets because we just don't typically splurge on things like this and neither do our friends. We're still very excited to go see our favorite comedian with our friends as this isn't something we usually do because we have a one-year-old and we don't do many date nights. Fast forward to Christmas morning and we open up two tickets to see Nate Bargotsie from my mother-in-law.

But these seats are way better than the ones we bought, like probably at least triple what we paid, if not more. Here's my dilemma. I kind of want to be. to go sit in the good seats. But is that terrible to leave our friends behind? Could we go to dinner with them before and walk in together, but then part ways to our separate seats? We will end up selling one set of tickets either way, but I'd really love to get the chance to sit up close since that's not something we usually do. But I can't help this nagging feeling that our friends will be upset that we're ditching them. My mom suggested that I just asked them if they would care if we sat in the better seats, but I feel like they will say no either way, even if they would be upset.

My husband's leaning towards just sitting with our friends and selling the tickets from his mom, but then I would feel bad selling the gifted tickets from his mom too. What do you guys think we should do? Thanks, a selfish mama. She's got to sit with the people that she went with. I think it's weird to be like, I got these better seats. See you later. I would sell the good seats and use them to go see him, use the money to buy.

seats to go see him a different time or someone else a different time and get really good tickets to something else. The mother-in-law will know that you sold them or like she might not even care. And you're still going to, I think it would honor the gift if you use the money to go buy good seats to something else. Then it's kind of like, okay, in the spirit of the gift, if you use it for groceries, then it's like, which is fine. I'm not saying that you're evil if you do that. But it would be nice to kind of say, okay, you wanted to get us good seats to something we like. So we already have seats to tickets to this. We're going to use it for good seats to something else. That being said, it depends on how good of a friend it is. I think you can mention to the friend,

hey, we got these seats. I mean, you're not really talking during a show. Anyway, you're kind of just sitting together. It's not like you're having conversation, but it is fun to look over when something's really funny and like make eye contact and like enjoy the experience together. I do feel like you committed to like the act. And why even buy the tickets to. Right. You committed to going to the show together. Right.

I think I would feel a little weird if I, if we bought tickets with friends to a show and then we walked in and they were like, see ya. Right. Like I wouldn't like be mad, but I would think like, okay, this is sort of an activity that we plan together from the beginning. It's not like you bought tickets and then they bought tickets. kind of like near you ish, but not, like if, if you bought tickets and they bought tickets like two rows back to try to be kind of close together, then I think you could, we're not sitting

really together anyway. Like, I'm going to use the seats. I think your plan is great. I would take the, sell the expensive tickets, get the money, and then go on a really fun date night alone to whatever you want to do together and sit up, have the splurge. of sitting up close. Also, I personally feel if I'm going to get really good seats to something, it's not going to be a comedy show because like, I was going to say that. Yeah. You can hear it. Like you can hear the same joke either way. It's the same joke whether you're close or far. I would rather see like a concert up close because you're you can see them playing their instruments. You can like dancing. The costume and the dancing and like the whole theatrics of it.

comedian is just a human standing with a microphone and saying jokes. I totally. I was going to say that too. It's like if there's, I don't really feel like the jokes are funnier if you're closer to the comedian. Right. Unless you're like in one of those small, small like comedy clubs. And then you get like picked on.

Right. Yeah. And some people like that. Right. Like you're kind of, you could be like part of the show. Right. I don't really think that happens with a comedian of his size doing like a set that I assume is probably going to be televised at some point.

If it's in like a theater, I don't think you're getting that different of an experience. Interaction, totally. I guess if you're a little starstruck and you want to be able to see like what color his socks are, like the pimple on his cheek, because you're like, oh, wow, we're in person. But yeah, I would use this for like a music show or a Cirque de Soleil or something where like being closer is really important part of the show. I agree. I think she'd also just feel weird.

The whole night is going to take a different tone. I mean, I personally wouldn't care. I think that's why I'm saying, like, if you and I were going to a show together and you were like, oh, my God, my mother-in-law gave me seats in the third row, like, we're going to go to dinner first. And then when we walk in, we're going to go to our third row seats. I personally wouldn't care. I know.

I think it would still feel, I think you would feel weird doing it, doing it, though, to me, if it were you. Yeah. Oh, of course. I would feel like exactly how she feels. Like, this is a little awesome. awkward. Probably not worth it because you're going to, this is your night with your friends. Then do your date night a different night. I agree. Well, what do you think if one person,

if you're flying with Jeff and one person gets upgraded? I'd be thrilled for him to take the upgrade. Would you take the upgrade? That would feel different because I don't think he would, he were different. Like he would not be into sitting separately and me taking an upgrade. I would love someone can get it. Get it. Like I personally wouldn't care about that type of thing. Yeah. I know Jeff would probably care, which is why I would quickly give him the upgrade,

but I don't think he would take that either. Yeah. I mean, what if you were going to a comedy show with Jeff and one, and you got one free amazing ticket? Yeah, I guess that is different because you're like going on a date together. Yeah. Yeah. I also think it's just different when you're a low.

watching a comedy show versus like in a couple. I wouldn't I wouldn't care but I could see how some people would. I could see how it makes the whole night not feel like a double date. We're doing this together. Then you regroup after. You talk about what was funny,

what wasn't, but like you're saying you're probably not going to go find them after the show. Right. Then that's, yeah, then you have to find each other. You can't walk out together. Yeah. I like your plan. Let's hear right back in and let us know what you actually go to see, sell the tickets. Hopefully the show is sold out and you get a ton of money. Totally. That would be awesome. Yeah. And if I were the mother-in-law, I wouldn't care if someone sold them, I think, if they already had tickets. Yeah. And I think if you want to be honest with

her, if she's like, you know, going to ask you how the show was, I think it would be very reasonable to just be perfectly honest with your mother-in-law. We actually already had tickets with friends. So we're going to sell these and we're planning to go see X. And we'll Thank you so much. Yes. Thank you so much. Can't wait to tell you all about it. Agreed.

Especially because she says in the beginning of the email, like, we don't really care that much about having the best seats. Well, there weren't going to. I get it. She was like, yeah, it's a chant. That is a good gift. Like we're talking about a gift. A gift, a great gift is like something that you wouldn't spend money on for yourself.

Like if you really want certain sweater or whatever, you probably can just get it for your. This is like I would never splurge to sit in the. third row at anything. Someone else splurged for me. I get why she wants to do it. But yeah, do it for a different show. All right. Let's do some intentions. All right. I will read them. Hydrogen and Dr. Newmie, I'm writing because I need help with an intention to control my germophobia, especially inside my home, which is causing me to obsess over details and nag my spouse about every single detail. I don't exactly recall when it started, but it just gets worse as I grow older. I'm a 37-year-old woman. teach at a middle school and my spouse is a dentist. To give you some context, I constantly have

obsessive thoughts about every single thing that can be contaminated with germs. When I come home from work, the gym, a restaurant or bar, or any place where I have sat down, I immediately change into clean clothes and wash my hands before I sit on the couch or on any other surface at my house. I don't expect my spouse to do the same, but I have told him I would like him to do the same and I definitely don't want to nag him or act like his mom by telling him to wash his hands and change his clothes every single time he comes home. He tries to follow my rule, but he is not as consistent as I am. Let me share an example of my obsession. I have a strict rule about not wearing outside clothes on the bed. I shower every night right before bed and need to know that my bed is clean so I can lay down on it.

It is my clean, safe haven. He has adhered to this rule and uses a new pajama every night and almost always showers before bed as well, which gives me peace of mind. But as I mentioned before, he doesn't always change his outside clothes as soon as he gets home and sits on the couch, not on the bed with them on. So what is the problem if he showers and changes his clothes before bed? Well, my thoughts are he sometimes comes home, sits on the couch with work clothes or gym clothes, so now the couch is contaminated. That's my thought process.

He showers before bed, changes into clean pajamas, but then sometimes sits back on the couch for a few minutes before heading to bed with his clean bed clothes. And now I'm obsessively thinking about how he changed. just contaminated his clean bed clothes and will come to bed and now the bed will be contaminated. It takes all I have to not say anything about it because I know this is an absurd obsession. I have thought many times about adding more to my no outside clothes and bed rule or say no outside or couch clothes in bed. But I don't want to say that out loud because I don't want to keep telling him what to do.

It's his house he should be free to do as he pleases, especially because he's already followed many of my rules. This is just one example of how germophobia affects my life and those around me. These obsessive thoughts occupy a big space in my mind and I want to be free from them. I already mop the floor and disinfect the surfaces and couches as often as possible, which also takes up a lot of time and is physically taxing. Please help a germ free key betch. Yeah, this sounds exhausting.

I know people throw around that term, but it does sound a little like obsessive-compulsive. There are treatments for this. I think a lot of people got into this heavily with COVID because then it seemed more reasonable and rational. Although I remember one time like wiping down cereal boxes at the grocery store. And I was like, I'm just not going to be doing this. Like I did it once. And I was like, I'm if I die, I die. From the cereal box.

Right. I mean, at a certain point, you kind of have to think that. way. And it's like, it's funny she uses the word contaminated. Right. Like the bed is, that to me is like a very strong word. It's not like, isn't completely clean would be one thing or, you know, has some outside residue from the bar seats that he was sitting on. Right. Contaminated sounds like, like a very intense, COVID-y kind of way. Right. Yes, totally. And I think you're right that that type of thinking that once something has a germ on it, that it is now a threat. There's germs on everything.

Even whatever it is that you think that you're doing, there's still germs all over everything. So if you look at it that way, like everything is pretty much contaminated. But I think this idea that she can prevent the contamination and then she will be safer if something is not contaminated is making her feel like it's giving her some sense of control that's making her think, okay, I have some control over this. So I just have to hold on to that and actually go a little bit further with now the no sitting on the couch once you have your pajamas on, which she knows. And she said it's absurd.

And I mean, sometimes it's hard because you're like, I want to be a clean person. right but where's the line and I think a lot of these habits start even like working out like I want to be a fit person but like how much is too much or how much is like how clean is too clean but also you don't want to be I think there's a fear of being dirty or letting your home become dirty or maybe if you're talking about fitness like becoming you know lazy or gaining weight or doing you know something else that's like it becomes the worst consequence right maybe it's illness I don't know what her her fear is there you're heading the nail on the head, I think a lot of these obsessive type mental illnesses come from a fear of the worst case scenario. So you go so hard to make sure you're like clinging to every ounce

of control around it, like exercise. Like if I miss one day of my six day a week exercise routine, then I'm going to end up like completely unfit and unwell or, you're, you know, work-aholic stuff. Like if I call in sick one day because I just don't feel like going that day, then all of a sudden I'm going to be this lazy bum that I was in junior year of high school. And I'm never going to be successful. I'm going to be fired. And it is this very black and white thinking that's a lot of times.

That's where eating disorders come from. You bring up exercise. But it's kind of like if I don't count every calorie that comes into my body, then I'm going to totally lose control over this thing and I'm going to end up gaining, you know, 100 pounds or whatever the fear is. A lot of the times the line is kind of blurry. Yeah.

Where is the line between I'm a person who keeps a clean home where, and there's nothing wrong with that? Just like there's nothing wrong with, I'm a person who works out and cares about my physical fitness. I'm a person who, you know, is mindful about the foods that I'm putting in my body. Where does that become this like obsessive thing? I was thinking about that because I used to wear an Apple Watch to count my steps.

And there was a time, I think it was during COVID. It was like kind of triple threat. Like I had nothing. I had very little to do. And I was getting married where I was like, I must get 10,000 steps a day. Like I was like walking up and down my hallway to get in my apartment building to get. And I kind of knew, like just like this listener, I kind of knew it was crazy. But I'm like, I'm in it.

Like I'm going to check it off. then I can relax or there's like a or if I don't do it this or if I don't care today, then maybe I don't care tomorrow. Then maybe I, you know, don't have the look that I want for the wedding. Totally. Or something.

Yeah. And I do wonder what her fear is. I mean, I do, I wonder if maybe there was some COVID trauma. I do see this in people that have lost friends or family members, you know, in COVID or I think it's important to. ask yourself, like, what is the fear? Is the fear that you're going to get a cold? Is the fear that you're going to get the flu? Is the fear that you're going to get COVID? What are you actually afraid of? I think sometimes it's just a, it's like this imaginary thing that there's, she's like picturing these germs in her bed. And as she's falling asleep, she's like, I just can't get comfortable because I know there are germs in this bed. And so somehow that feels like just a bad thing. But,

Yeah, ultimately, I think that she needs to lean in, like a lean against the grain a little bit. And what I would recommend that she do, she's coming to us. I'm at the other end of the spectrum of like, you know, if you sneeze or you cough or like when we go to six flags and we ride on a ride, we'll like wash our hands afterwards. but there's no changing before the couch, like the couch is the couch. The dogs are on the couch. The dogs are in the yard. They're on the couch. Like, you know, the dogs really, I have the same thing.

Like, first I was like, no shoes in the house. Now I'm like, I wake up with shoes on my face from the dog bringing my shoe. Just drops right on my head and like, oh, smelly socks just like surrounding me. Yeah. So it is funny. Like, though, certain times, like I think almost sometimes something has to happen where you're just like, fuck it. Yes.

But I don't know if she doesn't sound like she's gotten there. Take your control away. The kids and the dogs like force you to go through the desensitization process, like a boot camp immediately. Like I have no control over this. You're already feeling she's already feeling like kind of overwhelmed by how much time and thought energy this is taking up. So you're going to have if you do the desensitization and you make what,

we call in psychology and anxiety hierarchy and you work your way through it, you're going to reclaim your peace, your time, your life, perhaps your relationship with your husband is going to be a little bit better with your partner. I forget who it was. But what I would recommend you do is make a list of all the things that make you feel anxious around this. Every single thing from my husband comes in from work, leaves his shoes on. on gets in the bed with his work clothes and his shoes and like, you know, rubs his body all over the place to this newest thing,

which is he sits on the couch with his clothes and he sits back on the couch with his, and maybe there's smaller things in the middle there. So you're going to make a list of everything that makes you anxious about this. And then you're going to rank them, one being like the least anxiety provoking all the way up to whatever, or 20 or however many are on there. And then you're going to start at one and you're going to tolerate, you're going to work on

just tolerating that and breathing through it. And, you know, I'll give you an intention that you can use. I mean, just as you know, I don't know what your fear is, but just anecdotally, I am not. And if you're immunocompromised or you, you know, you have someone in your house that's very fragile. I get it. That's different. So maybe that is part of the story somewhere in there.

But if you're both healthy and you both have. and you both have normally working immune systems. I don't do any of this. And I knock on wood, I can't remember the last time anyone in my house got the flu or strep or anything like this. So I think if you have whatever she might be afraid of, and this is with PJs on the couch and clothes in the bed and all the things that you think are

making you safer. You work through each one. And you kind of have to tell yourself basically like, you know, the intention that I wrote for you when you're going through this is I'm choosing peace over certainty. My body can handle everyday germs. And that's the bit. What you said is like people want to lean towards like certainty. Like how do I know what's that subjective? What they don't like that subjective area?

Like what is the boundaries a little fuzzy? It's uncertain. I don't know. What's okay? What's not okay? Do I need to spray down cereal boxes? Do I need to wash my hands after I sneeze? Like, you know, there's boundaries.

And it is hard to know exactly where that ground is. But tolerating that uncertainty is going to bring you a lot more long lasting overarching piece, I think, if you can work through it. I would definitely start with that. if that doesn't work, I might get a therapist. Not to like suggest that as the cure all for everything, but I do think I would also ask myself, how many hours of the day am I thinking about the germs?

Because if it is kind of like taking over your life in a way that feels like a barrier to being happy and relaxed, like there could be something you could take that would maybe like make that thought about the germs a little less sticky. Yeah, a medication or honestly, a therapist is going to do what I just, like if you go to someone for an OCD, they're going to do what we suggested, but it is nice to have someone to kind of walk you through it. And the other thing I hate to say is there are a ton of other threats in the world that you're just not thinking about. So sometimes that helps you realize like, I'm just obsessing over this germ thing. You could be obsessing over getting the brakes in your car fixed, like getting. the brakes in your car checked every three months because what if they suddenly stop working or you could be obsessing over getting all the trees in your yard looked at to make sure they don't fall on your house during a storm. I mean, I can keep going and going and going about things

that you can obsess over. You just happen to land on this one for some reason, but it's kind of just a random clawing at control. And like you said, it's kind of like you could do none of this stuff and be healthy, germ-free, in a way that actually affects you. Or you could do all of this stuff and be constantly getting sick. And sometimes there is a little bit of like a societal judgment thing. Like I remember that even starting like an elementary school and people would be like, ew, you this or

ew, you that. It's like there is this thing that it's almost like you're a better person if you're more clean and sanitary. There's like a morality to it almost. No, it's true.

And I mean, if you really, if you think too hard about anything, everything is disgusting. Yeah. Even the thing she thinks are Yes. Or not disgusting. Like I, you know, I understand the idea of if you live in New York City and you take the subway and there's like you're in residue on the seat that you don't want to like get into bed with your street clothes or whatever it is.

But then you're like, okay, well, like, what if I sit on the couch and then I, I could see where her mind would be like, it makes sense logically that like if you're not going to follow all the rules, then what's the point of any of the rules because it's in this thing. Yeah. So it is like a little bit of a slippery slope where sometimes it feels like it should be all or nothing because what's the point? It's like recycling almost. Right. Sometimes where you're like, if I don't know that it's going to the right place, the right thing, like, what's the difference? Yes. No, I, I hear you. It's hard. But I mean, in the reality of it, if like, you know,

somebody urinates on the seat in the subway and then you sit down on it and I'm not suggesting after it tries. After it tries, play it out. you sit down on the couch and then he sits down in his pajamas and then he gets into the bed, nothing's going to happen to you. Like you're not going to die from that. I get that it's gross. Nobody really wants that. You want your bed to be your safe haven.

But the intensity of the fear that it feels like there's something that makes this feel dangerous. Like it's disgusting, but it's not really dangerous if you're not immunocompromised in some way. And I'm not saying, yeah, I'm not going to discuss the listeners, but you could go down a path where maybe you ingest some fecal matter and you get sick. That's like the worst case scenario of what she's really preventing that like on her pillow or something. That's really probably not going to happen. I get you want some cleanliness barriers. I'm sure she's not going to go straight from the subway into her bed ever, no matter how many anxiety hierarchies she does. She's never going to get in her bed right after sitting on the subway.

That's totally fine. But we can work on like the contamination from the street clothes to the couch to the pajamas to the bed. I think that's a good goal. Also, you work in a middle school. Those kids are disgusting. None of them are probably showering. And it's all in the air. I hate to say it.

But like a lot of this stuff is airborne. It's, you know, there's a sneeze across the room. That's probably worse than the. the whole couch pajama transmission route is just some snot nose kid sneezing in the front row. And there's nothing you could do about that. It's funny. She didn't, I don't know what I'm thinking about.

She didn't even really ask how to stop thinking about this. She asked about like how to stop annoying her husband. Well, the best way to stop annoying your husband is to care less yourself. Care less about this. Because even if you don't say anything, you're going to be sitting there in bed all tight and like anxious. and wanting to say something. It's just stealing your peace,

which is why I really like the intention of choosing peace over certainty. You're never going, yes, you could feel more certain by removing any of these transmission routes, but then you're really going to be robbing your peace, your ability to just enjoy the evening with your husband and not be like sitting there when he's speaking to you,

he's sharing something with you and all you're thinking, all you've got to change your pajamas. You've got to change your pajamas. I would change the word in my head from contaminated because I think the words that you use do affect your mental state around something. So you could just say not the cleanest. Let's start with that. Right. Yes.

It's not the cleanest way to be. Let us know how you do with this. This is really hard. This is just another version. I hear this in so many different iterations of this type of thing where people are trying to control. a situation where there's a fear of not knowing how what the outcome is. Like I had people that had one occasion where they like didn't make it to the bathroom in time because they had it, their stomach was upset.

And now every time they go somewhere, they have to like map out the, find out where the nearest bathroom is, how long it's going to take to get there. What they have, it's like just another version of preventing discomfort or in some case, it feels as intense as preventing like death. But it's, yeah, there's ways to handle this and get that mental space back. There's so much space in your mind that you can use for joy and presence and, you know, gratitude and all these other things that are being taken up by this fear of germs. So good luck.

Agreed. Good luck. All right. Let's do some triggers. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana. I love the show. And it's helped with so many situations.

in my life and I love sharing it with everyone I know. Awesome. Thank you. I have a triggered scenario that happened a few weeks ago at this point, but is still on my mind. My parents own a piece of land that had a house on it that they demolished. They hired a contractor to put a fence on it, but my dad didn't read the contract. So he didn't realize it was a contract for a wood fence, not a chain link fence. He wanted a chain link fence. So when it came time to pay the deposit, he realized a mistake and told the contractor to update the contract for a chain link fence. The contractor sent him another updated contract that he again didn't read and then installed the fence. The contractor sent my dad an invoice per the contract for $3,000. My dad was pushing back on it because he thought it was too

high, but admittedly hadn't read what he agreed to pay for it. My mom was relaying all this to me when she was over and ended the story by saying, my dad had asked my husband, a lawyer, to review the contract. I'm also a lawyer, graduated at the same time as my husband, has generally the same level of experience, though I have spent a large part of my career in contract review, whereas my husband has not. I immediately relayed to my mom how offensive I found this request, as I am more than capable of helping them, and I have always been willing and eager to help my parents when they need it. My mom agreed, but she said she was just relaying the message from my dad. Every time I think of this scenario, I am re-triggered by it. I didn't bring it up to my dad and he never actually ended up

asking my husband himself for help with it. How trigger can I be? Best, the backup lawyer. To me, this seems kind of nice. She didn't have to like review a contract. Yeah. But clearly there's something where like she's doubting her parents' views of her as like successful and competent. Yeah. I would imagine that's where this trigger is coming from. I get that. I would be offended by this. I think especially if there's a couple layers to it, especially if she does contracts. It's almost like, do you not, maybe you don't know that about me, which maybe feels a little bit like a disconnect. Like I'm your daughter. You don't know that I kind of specialize in this or you do know that I specialize in this and you still chose to go to my husband who doesn't specialize in this, which is more, both are offensive.

Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because you don't think of me as like super smart? I could see those things running through her head, especially because it's her parents, and I guess his parents. Yeah. I think it's easier to ask her than him. Yes. Yes.

What I think this possibly is if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt is just like, you're their child. They've grown up with you. Like they've seen you have temper tantrums. They've seen you probably make some big mistakes. They've seen you do a lot of, you know, just normal human things that all they know so much about you. all the good and the bad and the ugly.

And maybe with your partner, he's always presented his like more perfect self. So they don't have any thoughts of him doing anything other than like his curated exposures that he's decided that they want to let him see. So they might see him as more professional or whatever because you never came home drunk when you were like 16 years old and like puked all over the bathroom floor. I mean, I'm, you know, guessing here. But maybe there are just these moments of like them knowing you as a whole person.

And it's, it does suck that it's maybe tainting their view. Maybe it is a sexist thing. And they're, which is probably the worst case scenario. What's offending her? I think she could ask her dad in a non-aggressive, non-confrontational way. Right. Just being like, hey, I heard you asked whatever the husband's name is to review the contract. did you know that I like actually specialize in contracts right I wonder why you didn't ask me I'm sure he'll tell you

I do think I don't think it's so loaded that you couldn't ask him although he might he never ended up asking him so that's the other part of like maybe just let it go where like the mom just said that he said he was going to ask and he never ended up asking or maybe he was going to speak to him about something else and so he thought it was easier to just if there's like a there's a few logical reasons someone might ask them instead of you. But I could see being a little annoyed, but also relieved again, if like less work for you to do. It does sound like me.

She says like I'm always willing and eager to help. Like it almost sounds like she wants the opportunity to use her degree to help her family, which I think is nice. And maybe that's part of what she thought, oh, this will be great. Like I can help out my people. Like what you said before about how they've seen her in a. tantrum or drunk, maybe the dad has a sense of pride and feels like embarrassed that he didn't read the contract.

Right. And then doesn't want to like let her see that he's like failed or done something wrong with this contract. Yeah, that's a good point too. Yeah. That is a good point because he did do it twice, which is like a little bit embarrassing. Right. Like he didn't read the first time and then didn't read it again after they had to rewrite it.

So yeah, you might have a point there that he might be a little bit ashamed of, you know, not reading it and maybe fearful. Like maybe this is your turn to get him back if he's ever been like, I can't believe you didn't, you know, pay your car insurance or like get your inspection done. And now you have a chance to go back at him and say, I can't believe you didn't read this contract twice. So that's another way that can take this to think about it that could take this thing out of it. But I think if in a couple of weeks, you're still thinking about this, just as a conversation started, not in an antagonistic way, but just like part of why I got this degree was I really am excited to help you guys with these types of things. And it hurt my feelings that you didn't want to come to me.

I think that's perfectly reasonable. Yeah. All right. Let's, I would give it a four. I think a four sounds. I get it. But he also didn't end up asking the husband. So it was just more of like.

I am hypothetical. Maybe he would have thought about it more and asked you. I ended up asking you. Maybe a three and a half. Yeah. I'll give it a four. I'll read our last one. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordan. I'm a long time fan of oversharing in all things, batches. Thank you for the weekly insights. I'm feeling really upset about a situation and I can't tell him overreacting. We will tell you. Yeah. I got married in the fall. It was a destination wedding in Europe where my husband is from. I invited a childhood friend and her husband and they RSVP. Yes. About two months before the wedding, she sent me the attached screenshot slash tax. saying she could no longer attend. While two months isn't the week of the wedding, it also wasn't early enough for me to invite other guests, especially given that this was a destination wedding with expensive flights and a high per plate cost. What upset me most, though,

was the wording and the tone of the attached text itself. We're going to read the text after I finish the email. I've always understood that once you RSVPS to a wedding, that commitment takes priority over other social plans, including other weddings. I also struggled with the explanation, because based on what I've seen, she and many of her friends have fairly elaborate weddings that don't seem last minute. Because of that, it was hard for me to reconcile the idea that another wedding date only became a conflict two months out.

Even though I recognize I don't know all the details. What makes this harder is the context. Just weeks before she sent that text, I had attended her wedding. Also an international destination wedding. We were close as kids, but had drifted apart over the years, mostly staying in touch through congratulatory texts. I received her invitation only three months before the wedding, which I assumed meant I was part of a later round of indivights, and I tried not to take that personally. What did sting was that my then-fiancee was not invited, despite her knowing I was engaged. I went back and forth and whether to attend. It was expensive, required time off work, and I knew it would be uncomfortable not knowing many people.

Still, out of sentimentality for our childhood friendship, I RSVPDS. Ultimately choosing to attend her wedding was entirely my decision. She didn't pressure me to go. And in hindsight, I should have thought more care. Her wedding was beautiful and her friends were welcoming, but I often felt out of place in ways I hadn't anticipated. Guests repeatedly asked about my fiance and why he wasn't there. And I was also meeting many other guests, fiance's, boyfriends and girlfriends, which made me acutely aware of being there alone. I left socially exhausted but happy for her and ultimately glad I went because it felt meaningful to witness a childhood friend get married. That's why receiving the below text dropping out of my wedding hurt so deeply. I was genuinely excited to see her and her husband there. I kept thinking about how our younger selves used to talk about being each other's weddings someday. What bothers me most is that the message itself left me feeling like an afterthought without much acknowledgement of the position I was left in. I understand she made a choice, but I can't shake how the situation was handled. It's been months since both of our weddings and she has not reached out to apologize, not so much as a phone call. Am I overreacting, signed a betch who's trying her best to be self-aware and understanding. So I read this email

before reading the text. Right. And I was like, okay, this person seems like they might have been pretty annoying. And then I read the text. Right. So I'll be her. I'll be the friend. You could be the listener. Okay. Hey, Blank. I've been meeting to reach out because I feel so sad to say I won't be able to make it to, I assume, your wedding. One of my closest friend's weddings ended up landing on the exact same weekend and I've been trying to make both work, but the flights and connections just aren't lining up. I'm really sorry. This couple of sad emojis in here. I feel so sad that I'll be missing your big day, especially as my first and oldest friend, having you at my wedding meant so much to me, and I truly wanted to be there for you in the same way.

I'll be thinking of you and celebrating from afar. When you have a minute to breathe, I would love to catch up and hear everything. I'm so, so happy for you and Blank to start this new chapter together, and I know it's going to be such a beautiful celebration to hearts. Hi, sad you won't be able to make it. We'll miss having you in blank there. Thanks for letting me know. Okay, so to me, this sounds like she did absolutely.

nothing really wrong, I think. I mean, I guess it's annoying to RSVPS and then change your mind. But it's funny because the listener who's writing in and not to invalidate your triggered, but like I don't know what else she could have possibly said. Yeah. It's like a very nice note. I agree. I thought the note was really nice.

I don't think she could have phrased it any differently. She told the truth, which was also nice. She probably could have skirted that, but she said what happened. And it's always nice to give someone. the benefit of the doubt that this other good friend really did maybe plan something last minute or change her date or I think her question is, did she really plan a wedding two months out? That's the part that seems a little sketchy is like did this friend just decide she's getting married in two months like today? Or maybe she spent a month trying to figure out if she could do it.

Even so, three months for a wedding seems like short notice. But I like, Three months for a wedding short notice. I feel like invitations usually get sent out two months in advance, maybe longer for a destination. Right. Or if it's a good friend, do you think she would kind of have their, most people have their place picked out like a year in advance, unless it's not that type of wedding. She said it's not a good friend. I mean, she's saying the other person. Right.

Right. It's this. She said it's one of her best friends that she wouldn't have known her wedding date sooner. And again, I would give her the benefit of the doubt and maybe she didn't. Like what purpose would she have in, you know, like screwing you over by waiting till two months? Like you have to kind of give her the benefit of the doubt. I think the part that's hurtful about this, which I do get is that she felt like she was part of the second round of invites in her wedding. she then her fiance wasn't included in the invite she took an international trip to go to her

wedding to then meet other people who were there with their boyfriends, girlfriends, and fiancée's when hers wasn't invited. She was uncomfortable in that situation, but did it anyway in the spirit of their friendship and this whole thing and then felt like she was just tossed away at the first opportunity for her to repay that. She says it's her tone and the text that's the most triggering. To me, I'm glad she included that context because I think that context is what's triggering. I know she didn't force her. She didn't tell her, but I do think there is this expectation of I did a lot that was uncomfortable for me to be there for you and you're seemingly doing very little.

And I can see why that is annoying. I will say that I think that it seems like the way she describes the friendship. They're not that close. They have a history together, which feels sentimental. They said they would go to each other's weddings. But they only really text to congratulate each other on milestones, birthdays. It doesn't sound like they're regularly in contact. The friend, I think, maybe doesn't value the historical sense of their friendship.

as much. It doesn't even sound like this listener does, but she's trying to hold on to this like sentimental thing. And I actually think the friend's assessment of the friendship and how much she should invest in it seems a little bit more accurate. Yeah. And that's probably why she invited her maybe in a later round of invites of like, oh, I'll invite her. I don't really want to know the fiance. I'm sure she doesn't know the fiancee well, even if she knows other people's boyfriends or girlfriends. She's like, doesn't really matter to me that much if she comes. So I'm not going to invite the fiance. she went anyway. It sounds like she had an okay time. I could see being like regretful of having gone.

Yes. Because she's like, I read this is like, but I don't think. Maybe we could even rekindle or maybe this is an opportunity to. Yeah. I think her trigger is in I shouldn't. And I don't want to speak for her. I shouldn't have put all this effort into going to her wedding because we're not, we're not at that level. And now I feel kind of like stupid. And. And like I tried so hard and she's not even though probably if you could go back, maybe you put more effort in to this friendship than it was worth given that you guys are not that close anymore. And I could see why the friend is like, oh, I have a close friend's wedding. Right. I'm going to go to the, you're not like it seems like they're both an agreement that they're not each other's close friend. Yeah.

So I could see why the other listeners like I was going to go and return the favor. But then I couldn't make the flights work. I couldn't make the hotel. It just seemed like too big of a pain in the ass for someone that I don't really speak to that often. And I can see getting a triggered from the close friend being like, my close friend isn't coming to my wedding because she RSVPed to a high school friend's wedding that she hasn't even hung out with in three years. And now I can't believe she's not going to come to my wedding just because she's like

holding on to this etiquette of she responded first to her. So now my close friend is going to miss my wedding because of this high school friend that she barely speaks to. Like that would be triggering. Yeah, I agree. I think that would be more triggering than this. I think this is your sign. It's okay to let the friendship. That sounds like the friendship has already faded.

Doesn't sound like you're like it's tough because, again, there's like this feeling of almost like you were talking about at the beginning of this episode with the toys. Like I don't use the toys. I don't really like, my kids don't like the kids don't like the. toys. They take up a lot of space. I could like keep them here because for sentimentality, because they were here when I was little. Or I could just like accept that there's something wrong with them. They haven't, they're not horrible, but they're not really bringing anything to my life. So I'm just not going to invest in them. Yeah. And that's why I think the text was nice. I think she didn't, I don't see why she would call to apologize. She just apologized to you in a text.

Right. And she, again, she doesn't care that much about maintaining the friendship. But like, Like maybe you shouldn't either. And I think instead of like, I would just cut the loss a little bit. Doesn't mean you have to hate her. Doesn't mean you have to like call her out. I would just say like this is a friend that I had from childhood. When we were 10, we thought it would be fun to beat each other's weddings. That's just kind of not how life worked out.

We're like, you know, it's not like a fairy tale situation. Right. It's okay. Yeah. I agree. It is sad. And there might be a process of like, I think there might have been a little roller coaster of emotions of like she was leaning in so hard with like going by herself when her fiance wasn't invited to an international. You know, oh my God, maybe we'll rekindle.

Like this is so like I think there was like a hopefulness that then just got you got the bottom dropped out of you when this happened. So I really do. I get it. It is sad to, you know, to kind of let go. But I would look at that trip that you took as a growth experience for you. Like you were able to tolerate kind of being in these semi-awkward social situations in an international place with people you didn't know. You went by yourself. Hopefully it was a nice destination where you got to enjoy yourself a little bit as opposed to like, you know, conceptualizing it.

as I did this for whole trip was just for her. And now she's not returning the favor. So like all that money and time and effort was wasted as opposed to like that was probably a growth experience. I think going to an international wedding where you don't know anybody is a growth experience. And hopefully you enjoyed yourself instead of looking at it as like I did all this. And now, you know, we're not even like in or she did it to like be. up the friendship and give it some legs and it didn't turn out that way. And I could see that being annoying, but I do think it's worse to have people who are going out of their way to be

polite for an endless. Like you could have friends where you kind of like, you get together with someone every three months because it's too weird to not. Right. Like your text, you know what I mean? You're texting someone because it's too much not. And it's just like, what are you going to do that until you die? Like, yeah. I think this is take this as like, You've gotten permission to let the friendship go a little bit. That's not really doing much for you. Yeah. And if you really wanted it, you would have been putting in more effort throughout the years

beyond congrats on your promotion or your engagement or happy birthday. You would have been doing more if this friendship was something that was really, you know, that you really wanted to have all these years just now. I do think the weddings bring that. up. It's kind of like the weddings are like, who are my people? And I'll tell you, as someone who's like way past my wedding, like there are a lot of people that were at my wedding that I don't speak to anymore. And there are people that weren't at my wedding that I do speak to now that I wasn't really close with then. So life ebbs and flows. But yeah, I get it. I get why it's triggering. I think

her text was really nice. I don't think she could have done any. She gave some good emojis. She seemed really thoughtful. She seemed apologetic. But it's sad. I won't take that away. Friendships, this is like a friendship ending kind of thing, especially if she hasn't reached out after to say, how was it? But you could also, if you really still are interested in this friendship and are willing to accept the assessment of like, we're not going to go out of our way for each other, but that doesn't mean it has to be over either. Right. I'm saying it doesn't have to be like angry or antagonistic. it's just like, I have friends where it's like, if it was the most convenient situation that ever occurred, I would see them.

Right. Yeah. And this is like paying thousands of dollars for an international flight and like taking time off work. This is not a low lift. Let's keep this friendship going. This is this isn't even a local wedding or a drive. This isn't a big effort for both of you. You did it.

Maybe hindsight 2020, you wouldn't have done it. But, you know, now you know. know. Now you know. The more you know. All right. Well, I'd give it a three personally. I'm going to give it higher than a three. I get that she didn't force her to go and she didn't tell her to go, but she went. She can't, she had a better friend's wedding. Like I would expect her to go to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess just in terms of how this listener feels, I don't think the friend did anything wrong, but I could see that she feels hurt. I'm going to get. I'll give it a four and a half because of the way she feels.

Not that I think the friend did anything wrong. Like I think most people would choose to go to their good friends wedding. And it would be weird not to. All right. Well, we can agree to disagree on the number. But that's our episode. All right. That's our time.

Great work today. Betches.