Oversharing - How Men And Women Argue Differently

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Jordana and Naomi start the week with an email from a listener who feels like she can’t approach her partner with open communication because he gets too defensive. How do you navigate conflict with someone who escalates quickly and can’t deal with criticism? Plus, they talk about fights that arise from being on your phone too much, and how we often fight differently than our partner. For the Betchicist email, a listener writes in about a family feud and her complicated feelings about reconnecting with family members she hasn’t seen in years—would that be disloyal to her immediate family? Finally, the Triggered scenarios include an over-tired daughter, a friend who wants to call “dibs” on a guy she likes, and a couple who needs a new solution to a repeat argument. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Trudan Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And we're back.

How's everything going with you? Everything's good. Getting hot and sweaty here in Dallas. It's been 100 degrees every single day for the last like three weeks. So, just easing in, breathing into it, getting used to it. I was in Austin last week for the U-Up show. And it was, yeah, it was like in the, it was 100 something. But I have to say when, even when it was like extremely hot, I'm still kind of like,

I think I still prefer this to very cold. I'd rather be uncomfortably hot than uncomfortably cold. Same. I think especially if you could just be like, and I tell my kids, I'm like, it's, you're sweating. That's okay. It's okay to sweat. You're not going to die. Like, I think sometimes the second you start to feel like that tingle of sweat.

It's like, okay, I'm sweating. That's it. It's like a free sauna. People pay good money for that. Right. But yeah, we usually record a couple weeks in advance. So our episode last week came out where we did the meditation. And I have to say I got a lot of messages about it.

I would say like 50% of the messages were like, I love that. That was great. I really enjoyed it. I did it on the beach in Costa Rica. I did it here. I did it there. Awesome. And they really loved it.

And the other half were like, please never do that again. I hated it. And it was awful and just promise that you'll go back to doing what you usually do. Right. Yeah. I could see it being a thing where like if you said like if you're not expecting it, you're just like I wasn't mentally prepared to do a 20 minute meditation right now. Right.

Yeah. And I think a lot and I sometimes feel this way. I was saying about other podcasts that I listen to where it's like if I'm looking like, sometimes with podcasts, you sort of like, they become a part of your week. And it's kind of like a TV show. Like on Monday nights, we watch the show.

Or you know what I mean? Like on my Tuesday walk, I'll listen to oversharing. And so I think anything that sort of takes you out of the norm of that, you're like, especially if you're not like the number one biggest meditation fan, you're probably like, I was looking forward to my thing and you didn't give me my thing.

You gave me something else. And now I have to deal with not having that as part of my day. Right. Totally. I could see if I was like at the end of my day, I want to sit and watch the Ozarks and all of a sudden Jason Bateman starts like leading a meditation. Not what I was anticipating. I wanted to like zone out to some murderous mob killings here.

Exactly. But I did receive one third helpful option, which was that some people were like, it would be great if you release that as like a bonus. So it wasn't part of the regular episode because they like what we're doing in the regular episode. But they maybe they wouldn't mind you. They'd be more likely to try it if it was like an extra added thing instead of. of something that was instead of the thing they were excited about. So I feel that.

Yeah. All right. Good feedback. Thank you. Yeah. Well, we'll think about it. We'll take it all in. We'll think about it.

But thank you for sharing the feedback with me. We always welcome that. Should we get into today's oversharing email? Yeah, let's do it. Naomi and Jordana, I love the podcast and thank you for all your great advice. Let's dive in. I've been with my boyfriend for two and a half years and we seem to be fighting more recently. I'm learning that we have very different communication styles.

I like to address things as they come up and he doesn't like to talk about them at all or gets extremely defensive. Yesterday, we were at dinner with another couple and he was constantly on his phone and trying to make plans with three of his buddies for after our meal. I got a little annoyed because I thought it was rude to make different plans in front of this other couple and it really removed him from the conversations, dinner, etc. I brought it up on the drive home and he fully snapped at me. He immediately raised his voice and was yelling at me how I didn't even want to go to sushi. and I literally checked my phone only six times. Six times. And it's not my fault that I have more friends to balance my time with than you.

That's rude. I was so surprised by his response and his defensiveness. He didn't let me finish a sentence without throwing his defense up or attacking me about an unrelated topic. This escalated into a fight and I realized that I don't feel like I can approach my partner and open conversations about my feelings. Can you give me some advice on how to open dialogue and be able to approach someone with a defensive communication style. Thank you for all you do, and I look forward to hearing what advice you have for me. Thanks. Defenseless batch. And, you know, we get a lot of emails about the way that your

partner argues or, you know, how to fight effectively with a partner because, and I think it's interesting because the goal is never, is not to avoid fighting. And I think some couples seem to like pride themselves on we never fight or we never disagree or we're, you know, we always get along. And to me, I always want either think they're lying or that they're like, if they're not fighting, then they're not communicating. Because fighting, and especially when you fight effectively to me, is like, can bring you a lot closer to someone. Right.

Totally. The end result is great. And yeah, I think a lot of people, I mean, I guess if you use the word fight, right, that implies that it's like very angry and contentious, you know, like having constructive discussions. But sometimes they're going to get emotional. And that's part of the work of being in a relationship. too is being able to tolerate each other's emotions.

What I often see a lot of times in couples therapy is I'll have two people come in and just stereotypically often the female, and this isn't always, sometimes it's a reverse, but oftentimes the woman is very adept at expressing her emotions verbally. She has kind of what people call like a higher EQ, like emotional intelligence. And so these conversations feel like second nature. So she wants to have them. She's leaning into them. And what often happens on the other side with the guy is if this isn't his cup of tea or

this isn't his comfort zone, he ends up feeling a little bit almost like the opposite of like mansplained, like on the emotional side. Like maybe a man does like mansplaining about current events or politics. But the woman's kind of doing like this woman splaining about emotions, which ends up making him feel kind of bullied and shut down. So I think there's a dynamic where men are not as comfortable with these conversations and the woman often takes like this very charged, aggressive, not a great, it doesn't have to be aggressive, but just like, she's, this is comfortable for her and this is uncomfortable for him. And a lot of times when men or the, whoever is not as into this conversation

can't put their feelings into words, they just end up feeling bullied and kind of like bumbling. and so then they want to just avoid the conversation altogether. Right. No, I've definitely found that in my relationship. I feel like I probably have that dynamic or where you're kind of like frustrated that the person that maybe the person is not understanding your feelings. So you're kind of then wind up like yelling at them about your feelings. Right.

Which makes them less likely to lean into discussing your feelings or their feelings because they're like, whoa, these feelings are just like you're talking. at your feelings, but you're actually just like yelling at me and making me want to leave the conversation, not like figure out how you're feeling. Totally. So I'd like to help, you know, figure out for the person who has a higher EQ or these conversations or is more psychologically minded or can verbalize their emotions a little better, how to figure out how to have this conversation without putting your partner in a place where he just feels, it really is like a a verbal expression of emotion, sometimes you take for granted that that's not easy for everybody,

you know? So it's almost like when he comes off as like distant or he doesn't want to talk about it, and especially if it's a repeated thing, it almost comes from this place of like, I don't, I'm not as good at this. Like that's what I get. Sometimes at couples therapy, the guy will be like, I'm not good at this. So like you need to be slow and sort of, it's almost like if Mike was trying and explain his accounting stuff to you. And you would just be like, I don't want to have this conversation. This is not enjoyable.

This is really hard work for me. This feels like mentally taxing. And I'm going to avoid this at all costs. So I think there's strategies that can make it feel more comfortable for the other person. And I think a reason behind that is a lot of, I feel like women have a lot more just, it's a lot more socially acceptable for them to be expressing their feelings to many different kinds of people.

And that's like expected. And I mean, I think female friendships are very much about that. Like intimate female friendships are very much about like talking about how you feel and talking about how something affects you and your sort of mental journey. And I think that male friendships, again, stereotypically, not all the time, are a lot more surface level from the things that I've seen. Just again, stereotypically or they're not really about like delving into. how something made you feel. And they're more revolve around like external things than around your internal experience.

Just again, from what I've seen, I'm not saying this is everyone. Right. There are exceptions. Yeah. And yeah, think about what you're each practicing. You know, like the guys are out there practicing making jokes and out of feelings or focusing on the game or focusing on, you know, some other external thing. And the women are really leaning in.

So you're getting so much practice in this with your female friendships. and this is probably the only time he's talking about his feelings is with you. Right. And that's probably why men, again, I find typically not always seem more resistant to therapy because that's just something they're a lot less exposed to and a lot less comfortable with as opposed to a lot of women that you see. Yeah. I mean, I'm big on, there's like a whole cultural and there's a lot of work, you know,

research and books written about the psychology of men and how the culture really does not allow for a lot of emotional expression. So I hope that there could be some change there because it would make some of these conversations a lot easier if it was more okay for them to come into a hangout with their friends and be like, oh my gosh, this thing happened to me. Like I really want to, you know, process it with you guys. And the guys were like, okay, cool, let's do that, you know, which I don't think happens that often. It's more distraction, I think. Totally. Guy friends serve as a good distraction. I would agree with that. But I mean, that brings us to, I guess, this email, which, I mean, in his, to defend the guy, I do think some of the things he says are very rude,

but she doesn't say how she's mentioned this. She doesn't, she gives quotes that he said in response to what she's saying, but she doesn't say exactly how she broached the topic. And I also, even though, again, I consider myself to have the higher EQ, I also can get defensive. If something is brought to my attention in a way that I feel is abrasive. Right. Yeah. So we don't know what that was, but I guess we could talk about what would be a good way to do it and maybe assume that she didn't do it that way or maybe he's just accustomed to responding defensively. But I think the timing, right, she says in here that he always, you know, she wants to talk about things immediately and he doesn't. And we've talked about that before,

you know, like you kind of have to allow the person that's not ready to take priority because otherwise it's not going to go well and then say like, okay, I get it. Like, this is a lot right now. Why don't you take some time and we can talk about another time? When would be a good time or when do you want to readdress it? So leave it to that person to kind of say, let's come back to it at this other time. What if they're like never?

Yeah. Well, then I, you know, I think in that moment, you can, if he's really saying never, and if he really means that, that's a bigger conversation for like the relationship as whole, but it might just be, okay, he needs a little bit of time to cool off. Right. Or in this case, I mean, in this case, I guess he's about to go out, I guess, with his other friends. Right.

That's what it sounds like. And maybe it was just at a dinner that he didn't want to go to anyway. So maybe he wasn't, he was feeling resentful somehow about that and didn't communicate that either. You know, it seems like there was maybe some underlying thing that he was already angry about. Like, he was kind of like, I maybe told you I didn't want to go to sushi. And you dragged me here. And so, yeah, I'm going to send, I'm going to text my friends six times over the course of the dinner as like a rebellious action against the fact that I didn't want to go to sushi anyway.

And I mean, in dealing with a lot of these fights, I think with, with Mike, I remember talking to my own therapist. And he was like, it seems like your initial reaction is to be angry in a scenario that annoys you. but a lot of the time, and anger is sort of like another way to express like what's underneath that, which is sadness. Yes. Or like a little bit more of a vulnerable emotion is sadness or I don't know, in this case, disappointment maybe or something. I don't know if it would be sadness that he's texting while, or whatever the softer emotion. Maybe she was a little embarrassed or she felt like it made it seem like he didn't really love her that much. She didn't, he didn't really want to be there or, yeah, I agree with that.

And I think approaching him with that, I agree, would be the better way to do it. Exactly. Like, because then I think the person wants like almost like there's a different part of their brain that's kicked in where they're like, let me like soothe you and let me like come lean towards you instead of leaning away from you. Right. And because like, and again, I'm just sharing her. I don't want to blame her because I think her, I think her annoyance is totally valid. And I think that she's, you know, it's good that she expresses herself. when things happen, I think, because then otherwise that does lead to resentment.

But like, when things happen, I agree, could be, it could be immediately after or it could be like the next day when you're not in the middle of your evening potentially. Yes. So yeah, I think when you are kind of like yelling at someone, and again, I don't know how she expressed it when you're saying like, you're being rude and giving it as like a personality trait, even if in my mind it might be true, it's more like, that just causes the other person. person to want to defend themselves because that that urge immediately kicks in. Let's see what's the scenario for us. Let's say I showed up late to this recording and you were

like, you're being rude. My initial thing would be like, well, I had a meeting before and like I had all these other things and you don't understand, you know what I mean? Like you don't, you don't get it or whatever like that. But if you were like, and again, I'll say you said it as soon as we started, that would be different, I think, then we finished the recording and then maybe like tonight or a few hours later, you text me and you're like, hey, just wanted to talk to you about something. Like, I felt a little frustrated or I don't know what would be. Yeah, or like I was really looking forward to doing this recording with you. I was so excited for it. And then, you know, when you showed up, it made me feel like you weren't as excited as I was or something like that

that just makes it very like, I value my time with you. I value this about our relationship. I value this type of closeness with you. And this was, I felt like a barrier to that. I think is sometimes a nice way of phrasing it. And I think if you said that to me, I would feel a lot more connected to you. Or again, I don't know if it's, I think a lot of people are resistant to doing that because they're like, I don't want to make this person like feel bad for me. Like I'm not trying to be like, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, but what's the alternative is that you make them feel badly about themselves, you know? So it's either I make you feel like you did something wrong and you're a bad person because of it, or I make you feel just kind of like my feelings were a little hurt and I'm not mad. I'm just a little hurt, which is like you said, easier to kind of mean into. Yeah. And that what you said is I think a person's a lot less likely to, or even if they are going to give you an excuse, it's going to be along with an apology a lot of the time. Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that you did that.

this was what was going on in my head, but probably not from as an aggressive of an attitude. Right. And I agree. I think using a lot of eye statements, which we always talk about in couples therapy, like, I felt this or, you know, versus like you are rude or, you know, that type of thing, I think is helpful. And then I think she could also say when you said, it's not my fault that I have more friends to balance my time with than you, I think you could say, because if it was me, I could say that really hurt my feelings. Totally. The aside issue is I think there's a lot of underlying stuff here that we're not getting the full details on. If that's what he's coming back with, it seems like there might be, if he's a poor

communicator, he's probably holding in a bunch of stuff, which is why he gets defensive and kind of blows up because he's holding in all this stuff. So my next tip for this writer would be to really allow her boyfriend some space to talk and for her to just really, really listen. Because the good thing about being the person with the higher EQ is that you can really do a great job of listening and empathizing with him. But he probably needs a little bit more space for that, bringing it up when you're not in a fight, you know, when everything's calm and just saying, like you've mentioned a couple of these comments. And I'm wondering, you know, I think we should have a talk about them. You know, like, is there something that you're feeling about our relationship

or the social interactions that we have in our relationship? Like, I want to know how you feel. I don't want to wait till we're in a fight in order. to deal with this stuff. Like, let's talk about it when things are good. Because it sounds like there's some stuff brewing for him that he's only opening the valve and letting it spew out once she's bringing something up versus, you know, him having a space to talk about that. So I think she should be a little more curious in a calm moment with him about what's

going on for him and see if he'll open up there. And that might release some of the steam. So he's not so pent up whenever she criticizes him. I think that's a great idea. And I think people are very hesitant to do that because they're like, why would I bring this up when things are, when we're getting along and everything. Totally. And we've talked about that before. But that's kind of when you have to do it. So the person isn't all riled up. And in this case, he's probably just waiting for the thing that's going to crack him so he can like let it all out. Right. Exactly. And she could say, you know, I'm sorry I gave you a hard time about trying to make plans with your friends.

Like I know that that's so important to you. And I want you to have that. And I want you to have that. I want you to be happy. So like I didn't, you know, it wasn't my intention to make you feel badly about that. But I do, you know, I want to know if there's stuff that you feel like is not fair in our relationship in terms of friendship or spending time and, you know, bringing it up in that way to get him to talk about it might be helpful. Because it sounds like there's some stuff that he's not wanting to address that's coming out here. And I don't think there's also this other thing in there that isn't the most PC thing to say,

where you're kind of like, you embarrassed me in this situation. And there is a little part of me that wants to make you feel really bad about it. Yes. So like I want to speak to you nicely. And I want to tell you like, I want to have this be a productive discussion. But there's another part of me, perhaps the less patient, less sweet part of me that also wants you to know that when you do this, it's rude. And I want you to feel bad because I want you to have a little bit of payback for being so rude in this scenario. Totally.

And that's why I think, you know, we had an episode early on about like going to bed angry or like letting things lie and letting your body calm down first. Because I think if you're, if you're fully activated, that's when these fights happen. I'm fully activated. You're fully activated. I want you to feel as bad as I'm feeling, you know, like hurt people, hurt people kind of thing. So, you know, I think if you, whoever has the capacity to kind of be more self-aware to say like, I'm feeling activated right now. like my fists are a little clenched. My shoulders are tense. My body is tense. I really need to like just let him go out with his friends. Just don't even bring it up that night. Let it be a little bit of a tense. If you know that this is a type of person you're dealing with, have your tents right home. Say, you know what, go out with your friends. Do your thing. Let him go out with his friends. Go to sleep, breathe, take a bath, whatever. And then the next day you can come back when you're a little bit more calm. So you're not like trying to do the payback thing because you're still all. activated from because that's not going to that doesn't help anything yeah no I agree

it's not easy I'm not saying that's easy it's not easy to do that but the more you practice it the easier it'll get well what I find is like if I've managed to do that if I managed to be like okay I'm going to let you do that the next morning sometimes I'm like well maybe you know I don't even know if it's worth bringing up and then if you do that enough times then you've then in your mind you're like I've swept this under the rug so I mean it's hard it's almost I guess hard to motivate yourself the next morning to be like, even though I'm not, even though I'm now not as irritated by it, I should still bring it up. Right. Totally. You know what I've told people to do in the past sometimes when they have relationships where there's a lot of different conflicts is

keep a little journal like a calendar. And on the days when, let's say it's like he's disengaged at dinner, whatever the patterned behavior is, on the days when you see that happening, you can make a little check mark or a star or a little note in your calendar. And then once you, after a month, if you see, oh, wow, like, you know, 10 out of 10 days out of the year, he was doing this behavior that was really upsetting to me. You can kind of talk yourself back into like realizing this, I need to address this because this is happening very frequently. So it's like a little note to yourself to kind of at some point give you the motivation to say, this is worth bringing up. This is worth bringing up in a calm context.

because I keep seeing that it's happening. I like that. Is it a one-off thing that I can sort of let go? Because I think a lot of people struggle with that too. It's like, do I need, can I like choose my battles or does that lead to resentment? Like where, what's the difference between choosing, you know what I mean? What's actually a big deal versus not versus just not being too non-confrontational? Totally.

So I think that's a good way to do it. Just keeping a visual record of sort of how often you're feeling. X, Y, or Z in the relationship might be a good way to say, okay, there's enough checkmarks on this month that I need to really. And it allows you to have the conversation in a more intentional way versus just waiting until you feel triggered and then going for it, because that's not going to end up well. And then you have a whole book full of evidence to prove your voice. Look at this calendar. On July 13th, you said this comment in this way, I would not recommend that.

I would recommend that, but sometimes someone's like, you know what? Sometimes if you're arguing with someone and they're like, that was like one time or do you know what I mean? Or the worst, I think, the most annoying thing when you're bringing up a fight or something, then the person's like, well, you did this on this time. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Totally. And that's hard because that is that defensive. A lot of times people that are uncomfortable leaning in to these.

softer emotions will do that because then now there's like a distraction there's like a shiny object that now you're going to follow the shiny object and it's going to deflect everything away from what you brought up so that is difficult where he can be like well you were on your phone last week or i also saw you on your phone a couple times during dinner totally and then it becomes more about that than about the thing do a recommendation if you're kind of find yourself in that territory in the middle of a fight? Yeah, I think if you can bring yourself to kind of be like, yeah, I did. And I could see why that was annoying to you, you know, or I can understand why you felt like I was detached when I was on my phone, like take kind of modeling that behavior and saying,

yeah, I did do that. And I could see why, and please call me out on it next time I do it, because I don't want to be on my phone while we're at dinner with your friends either, you know, so I shouldn't have done that. And I apologize for that. takes all the wind out of their sales. Like, okay, we're not going to fight about how many times you took out your phone versus how many times I took out my phone. I think a lot of times the person who's, I was thinking of, have you ever heard of the Myers-Briggs personality inventory?

Is that the I-N-T-J kind of thing? Right, okay. Basically, there's like the thinkers and the feelers, right? That's one of the two dichotomies is a thinker versus a feeler. So she might be a feeler and he might be a thinker. And sometimes when you have the thinkers there, they kind of, they want like a more concrete solution. You know, so if you're just sort of like, okay, here's the plan. Neither one of us are going to go on our phone when we're out at dinner.

Or like a lot of times they need, they want you to lead the conversation. All the emotional introspective stuff might make them feel a little bit overwhelmed. Like I said, they don't know how to verbalize emotion. So sometimes just asking for what you want is. a concrete way that they can say, yes, I can do that. So leading the conversation with, this is how I felt. It would be really helpful if X, Y, or Z. And a lot of times they might just be like, okay, that's fine. I can do that. Just tell me what to do. And I'll do it. For those types of people might be a good entrance, because a lot of times they're kind of like, well, what do you want me to do

about this, especially. And again, sometimes it's a male female thing. Like the male, not always, again, stereotypically, they want to just, whatever the problem is, I just want to fix it. and move on. I don't want to have a two-hour deep dive into the deeper meaning behind why I was on my phone. And I look, as a psychologist, and I'm sure you do too, that's why we have a podcast about it, like to dig into all this stuff, but some people don't. And that's okay. You're not going to, you know, kind of push a square peg into a round hole. If that's not the type of conversation he wants to have. But if you can say, this is what I want from you, then he might be able to be like, okay, just tell me and I can do it.

Right. No, that's a great, that's a great, great point. I think Mike operates like that a lot. Right. Where he's very good at, if I ask him to do something, he will do it or try to do it. And he would much much prefer that to me getting, you know what I mean, almost. And I think a lot of the time also, but I think a lot of the time that I'm trying to make him get into those emotional

conversations is because in my head, I'm like, I want you to understand why it's so annoying, or I want you to understand why I feel this way, because by doing that, then I feel like you understand me. Right. It's like an intimacy thing. Right. In my mind, I'm like, I don't, I don't just want the thing. I want you to understand why I want the thing and all the emotions that go behind that.

Did you, I don't know if we've talked about here. Did you ever see white men can't jump? This is what my, probably my favorite scene I think of all time in any movie ever. It's with Woody Harrelson. You have to watch it. Basically, Woody Harrelson is lying in bed with his girlfriend. And she goes, I'm thirsty. So he gets up to get her a glass of water.

And she's like, no, no, no, no, no. When I tell you I'm thirsty, I don't want you to get me a glass of water. I want you to empathize with my feelings of thirst. I want you to tell me, I too know how it feels to be thirsty. And he's like, when someone tells me I'm thirsty, I want them to get me a glass of water. It's like the typical, you know, male, female, but she has this hysterical, like,

it's like a New York accent that goes, it's a really funny scene. You know what? We've got the clip. We're going to play it for you guys right now. There you go, honey. When I said I was thirsty, it doesn't mean I want you to bring me a glass of water.

It doesn't? You're missing the whole point of me saying I'm thirsty. if I have a problem you're not supposed to solve it men always make the mistake of thinking they can solve a woman's problem if I'm thirsty I don't want you to bring me a glass of water

I want you to sympathize I want you to say Gloria I too know what it feels like to be thirsty I too have had a dry mouth I want you to connect with me yeah no that's

that sounds like exactly what we're talking about I also always think of that scene and knocked up where Wesleyman is talking to Paul Rudd and she finds it. She thought he was cheating on her, but it turns out he went to the movies. It's a fantasy baseball draft. I'm not cheating or anything. Well, what'd you do last Wednesday night when you said you went to see a band? I went to the movies. With who? By myself. What'd you see? Spider-Man 3. Why do you want to go by yourself? Why don't you ask me to go? Because I needed to get away, you know, with work and you and the kids, sometimes I just need some time to myself. I need time for my.

I want time for myself too. You're not the only one. I like Spider-Man. Okay, so let's see Spider-Man three next week. I don't want to go see it now. I don't want to have to ask you to ask me. I want you to just come up with it on your own. She wants the intimacy. Right. He just wants like the thing that's going to be the most utility for him. It's just like getting that break. Totally. Totally. Yeah. I get that we think that the goal is, and it is, to have this deep. emotional intimacy, but sometimes you have to start where you're at. You know, like I think you have to just start with giving him or her, depending on which way it

goes, something concrete that they can do to make you feel better because people that think that way, they love you. They want you to feel better, but they want to know something very specific that they can do to get there. So it's a good start just to kind of get through, you know, her question is, how do I deal with someone with a defensive communication style, that all this deep dive analytical, emotional intimacy stuff might be a little bit intense for him right off the bat or he can only handle so much of it.

So saying how you feel giving him something concrete so he can feel like he's helping the situation might be a good strategy. And a lot of the time when you do that, it can feel like I want them to already know that. But I actually feel like it's almost more romantic for someone to do something that you're asking them to do than for them to do the thing that they always do and they would do with anyone else. Right. Totally.

You know what I mean? Like I say that about with me and like birthday cards or something where I want a card for Mike on my birthday that I want one that's like intimate and sharing his feelings and like expressive. And he's like I've never really done that before. But you know, he does it every year. And I'm kind of like it almost feels more romantic and sweeter because he it's not his first nature. Right. Because it's not something that comes easily to him. So he spends a lot of time on it and he thinks about it a lot. And like because he almost because he. doesn't enjoy doing it. It makes it better for me because he usually does it really well now. And it's like he knows he'll do it because he knows that I like it. And I'm like, this almost feels more special than you write sweet cards for everyone. I'm just another girl, like another person in your life that you write amazing cards for. Yeah. So I think there's something to be said in couples and relationships for going against the grain. And that's what I talked to so many of my couples. If if doing what came naturally for you worked, we would

be here. You have to push yourself to do something that's not coming naturally to you in order to make change in the relationship. And the same thing for the person who likes the deep dive, the person who likes the emotionally intimate conversations to realize, okay, this is my natural tendency is to want to talk about this immediately, to want to get down to the bottom of this. But I also have to go against my grain a little bit and realize that's not where my partner is. And I need to, you know, maybe keep it short and sweet, hold off the conversation until he's a little bit more calm, do things that make me a little bit more uncomfortable in order to make him feel more comfortable in this situation. I think a lot of women feel like, well, this is the right way to do it.

So this is how we're going to do it, whether you like it or not. And I don't think, you know, there's another person here too that needs to have their feelings accounted for. So you both have to kind of go against what your natural bent is to make real change. I think that's great advice. And hopefully we help this person and anyone else who comes up with disagreements with their partner because I think that is pretty universal. Or even a friend or anyone else in your life. Yeah, for sure. Okay, let's do our ethical email. Let's see, here we go. Okay, Betchaicist. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I love the podcast and have found your insights to be extremely helpful. I have a question for you and would love to hear your opinions on this matter.

Feel free to shorten this email if needed. Also, please keep this anonymous. I used to have quite a large family. However, when I was a child, conflict within my mother's side of the family resulted in my parents choosing to separate themselves from my mother's side of the family altogether. I have many memories of all the cousins playing outside at family gatherings while the parents all argued inside. Yeah, that sounds like a blast. I have similar memories of escaping the drama that was occurring in a different place, so I can relate. The details of the conflict aren't relevant, except that my mom felt deeply hurt, excluded, and disrespected on a constant basis, and my father resented her family for making her feel that way. Eventually, she just had enough and cut ties with her family.

My father's side of the family is very introverted and does not really get together at all. So holidays, birthdays, and celebrations of any kind were spent with just the nuclear family and maybe some friends. Now I'm in my mid-20s and the only contact I've had with my cousins on my mother's side over the years has been through liking Instagram posts and the rare DM. I always wish that I could form some type of relationship with them as we are all moderately in the same age range and stage of life. And honestly, it would be so nice to have cousins again. However, the idea of me or any of my siblings reconnecting with my cousins greatly upsets my parents and especially hurts my mom, which I understand. I've been living alone for several years now. This year, I moved to a new city and happened to live about 20 minutes away from several cousins and their new family, spouses, children, et cetera. Since moving here, I've received invites over Instagram for my cousins to visit them. These invitations make me feel uncomfortable because I have strong, conflicting feelings of longing for reconnection with my cousins, but at the same time love and respect for my mother. I have always declined, but if I'm being honest, I really do want to reconnect. I know it would

kill my mom if I did, though. Also, while I do keep many aspects of my mother, I'm not. Also, I do keep many aspects of my personal life private, visiting my cousins is not something that feels right to keep from my mom. How do you think I should approach this situation? Am I wrong for wanting to reconnect? Should I just put this one to bed for good? Thank you so much for all the things you guys are doing. All right, good question. This is a good one. I think that there's a lot of people with this kind of weird, estranged family dynamic where there's some long running family tension or if they're not completely not speaking. And we even saw this in our email from last week with the girl who was babysitting her sister's kids. And then now the sister is trying to eat the kids from her. So this one's

interesting because I can understand why the mom would be like, I don't want you seeing my brother's sister or, I mean, I don't know if that would even be a valid thing to ask either. But I can understand why she would have strongly feelings about that. But in this scenario, it seems like the cousins are kind of innocent in this. Right. And have. haven't wronged her themselves. So I don't fully understand. I don't really necessarily think it's justified for her to say, I don't want you speaking to your cousins. Totally. I had the same thought. Like, they're all playing outside. They weren't part of the drama. They were just kids. I think what might be, I have a feeling what might be happening is there might be some accidental

contact with the aunt or, you know, uncle or whoever the adult is or there might be some reporting back of so-and-so came over and like, you know, just this feeling of she's let it all go. You know, the mother doesn't want to be the only one. You know, obviously, I think we can really relate to this personally. The mother doesn't want to be the only one like towing the line. And everybody else is just like pretending it's all okay and not caring while she's the one that's like holding the burden. Yeah.

And then it becomes almost like a loyalty play. We've experienced that too where it can feel like by talking to or associating with someone that your parent doesn't like, they can make you feel like by proxy that you are being disloyal to them. Or, you know what I mean? Like they think the way that they feel about someone should be the way that everyone feels about them. Right. And I've had this with both of my parents. And I think at the end of the day, as I got older, I've said, your relationship with someone is your relationship with them. but my relationship with them is my own personal thing that should be separate.

And yeah, that's something I can think about when I'm speaking to them. But that's my decision about how I want to. Totally. And I think if she can really, I think, you know, it sounds like you do too. I think that, like, ethically, it would be perfectly fine for her to hang out with her cousins. She's alone. They're 20 minutes away. Like, they didn't do anything just because they were birthed by this.

person doesn't mean that they are the same person, you know, as the aunts or uncles or whoever it is that wronged her mom. So I think she could say, look, I get why you're upset with Aunt X, Y, or Z or Uncle, so and so. But the kids didn't do anything. They weren't really part of this. And if they were maybe in some way protective of their parent, that's a normal thing to kind of be like somewhat protective of your parent. But I'd like to move forward with the new generation of kids and for us to be able to just hang out with the cousins. If you're not comfortable, if so, if, you know, the mother or father shows up, you know, I can leave or I can go to the other side of the room or I want to be loyal to you in this situation if she really does feel angry

with the adults, which it sounds like she does, but I want to be able to see my cousins. And I don't think that, you know, I think ethically there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. And I think at that point, it's almost like if you try to control the behaviors and I think I read this somewhere where it kind of stuck with me it's like if you try to control someone else's behavior it means it doesn't you don't really respect them because you don't really trust them to make the right decisions about who they're with and what they're doing so by your mother I think trying to control or say like forbidding you and I don't know if she did I don't know if she's forbid them so much as she's saying it would upset her right which I guess is a different kind of feeling because if you're forbidding someone then I

do agree, then you're like, you don't trust them to make the correct decisions based on their own interactions and interpersonal relationships. And if it would upset her, I think it's kind of like, okay, it would upset her a little bit. Right. Sometimes it's kind of at the end of the day, I think you can tell her, I don't think you have to lie to her. I agree that would be like more hurtful. I think you could tell someone something knowing it might upset them and that that's also okay. Mm-hmm. Right. Totally. And I think it might in some ways even, you know, be good for the mother to become accustomed to the fact that her being upset, she's not going to be able to use her being upset

as a control tactic for her children's behavior, which I think is pretty toxic. You know, it's one thing to say, I'm upset. I don't really like this. And for her to go to her own therapy and say, you know, I feel this, my child's being disloyal, whatever it is, but to say, like, I'm going to display so much high level of upsetness

that I'm going to use that to change. your course of action is not really fair. It's like the definition of emotional manipulation. So I do think it might be in the best interest of the mother to slowly start to get used to the fact that, you know, she wants to see her cousins. I'm going to have to just breathe into this and deal with it. And it's not the person exactly who injured me. It's the child of the person who injured me. And for her to get a little bit exposed to that bit by bit so that eventually maybe they can move forward and just move on. And just learn how to be like, again, a little upset about something and move on.

Totally. But I get that this is really hard. And she's probably up until now, it's just been so easy to avoid for everyone to avoid the issue. She just didn't really see them. The parents usually make the plans with the, you know, extended family. The parents didn't make the plans. They grew up like that. They got used to it.

But now she's probably longing for a little bit of connection. And so she's shaking it up a little bit and changing the dynamic, which feels uncomfortable for everybody. And it almost might make everyone feel better if like, let's say she does talk to her cousins. Because it seems like they put there. If they have some loose ties of like Instagram or DMing and stuff to say like to go hang out and say I love hanging out with you like it's been great. I know our parents have like some unresolved stuff. Let's let them, let's let that be between them.

We don't need to talk about it. It's like their issue and, you know, I think you're really great. We cannot involve them in anything that we're doing here. Totally. And she can be clear with her cousins. Like, you know, I think it would be good. I don't know, you know, what their communications like, but I think it would be good for her to be able to say to her cousins, this is, you know, difficult for me,

but it's important to me. And I just hope you can respect that I want our relationship to be our relationship and like, not, you know, have your mom pop in when I'm there or like that type of thing to just kind of be aware that like let's start with baby steps just you it just the two of us because this is difficult and it's hard for my mom and she's kind of getting used to the idea because I do think the thing that would be the worst is if and probably what the mother's ultimately afraid of is that the aunt's going to show up and feel like ha ha ha I have your daughter on my side now you know and you don't even know what they've been up to all these years to the extent that you could

say the thing and they're like well I don't even talk to my mom she is crazy totally You know what I mean? Like totally get why your mom felt that. You know what I mean? Like you don't have you have no sense of like how they have interpreted or what the situation means to them. You don't even have to talk about it if you don't want to. But I think that like what you said is probably best for like openly communicating

what your ideal scenario would be from the situation, which is just, uh, establishing a relationship with the cousin. Right. But yeah. I mean, that would be, it would be great if they could just open, have a conversation with that sort of like, okay. the parents are all sort of like stuck in that world and we don't need to get involved in it. And let's just hang out and have a good time.

But I get why I really do get why this is a tough thing. You want to have respect for your mom. But you also cannot let the precedent of mom's going to be upset so we don't do this thing last for the rest of your life. Because mom's going to be upset if we do this thing. You have to be able to make your own decisions like you said. Your mother has to have respect for the fact that you're setting the right boundaries. I don't want to see aunt whatever because she hurt you and I'm angry with her and I don't like the way she handled things.

But I do choose to see my cousins because I've made my own rational decision based on a thought process that I've come to by myself. And I'm not going to allow the barrier of upsetting you to cut off all rationality in this situation. I think that's a great way to look at it. Do we play some games? A game? Let's do a game.

Triggered. Okay. I was trying to explain to my mom how bone tired I am now that I'm about to defend my PhD thesis and leave my current toxic position. Like I can't even make plans with anyone, even just going out to dinner because it feels like too much. I need a month break from everyone asking anything of me to hopefully get back to normal. I was trying to explain this to my mom so she could help communicate it to my aunt who was trying to guilt me into flying across the country for my cousin's bar mitzvah. When she interrupted and said, I know, I'm so tired too. I had to wake up early the past three days.

She's retired, so she doesn't even have to wake up early normally. But like, she's retired. I spent the last five years of my life in constant anxiety, got a divorce, move state, bought a house for the first time. I just gave up and went with That Sucks Mom and got off the phone soon after. How triggered would you be? I get why she's triggered because I think she's just completely overwhelmed and her tank is on empty and anything is probably going to trigger her.

But I think the mom is like, oh, you're tired. I'm tired. The mom was probably on that day tired. So she was feeling like she could relate to the feeling of being tired on that particular day. I don't think this is extremely triggering. I just think that this, I feel for this writer, I think she's completely overwhelmed and is like probably being tired will make anything feel triggering. I could see why she was, but I think the mom is probably like, oh, I'm tired too. That doesn't mean she wasn't listening to you. That doesn't mean she didn't want to hear her. It doesn't mean she wasn't going to help you with your aunt. It just means that she made one statement saying that she was also tired that day.

I agree. I would give this like a two or a three. Just because, I mean, I think when you get into the habit of being like you're trying to compare, two people can be tired and yours can be a lot worse, but to them, their experience is their experience. Right. Like them being tired doesn't take away from what you're going through. And I can see why it would seem like an attack. But you could think of that way about, like, I think a lot of people think that way about, like, tragedy or bad things that happen. Well, it's like, they think this was bad. Like, and I think our, our grandma used to say this to us all the time. She used to compare everything to the Holocaust. Right. She'd be like, the service is low. Like, you should have, like, was the service low in the holiday? Like, they were lucky to get food at all. It's like, right. Just because people have had it way worse than you. Which is something, I guess, to keep in mind when you're going through some tough things. It doesn't mean that your own.

experience is invalid or that your mom's experience is invalid. And again, I think she's probably saying that as a way to try to relate to you. I know what it's like to feel tired too. Right. Yeah, I agree. And I do think it plays into this bigger psychological phenomenon that you're talking about of like this martyr syndrome. It's almost like there's sometimes there's this competition. And she's saying she's studying for a PhD, which I think the culture around grad school in certain context is very competitive. It's almost like, who's the most miserable wins the prize. Who's working the hardest and who's the most sleep deprived? I remember I was an adjunct professor for a physician's assistant program and I was teaching a health psychology course.

And the culture in there was just like, if you weren't miserable, you weren't working hard enough. If you weren't exhausted and tired and tortured and it was almost like I was, you know, I sat down with these kids. And I was like, you don't have to be miserable in order to be doing what you're supposed to be doing. You could do what you have to do. And then you can also like just give yourself your boundaries and take care of yourself so you're a pleasant human being. So I think sometimes she might be in this culture of like competition where whoever is the most miserable. And I think a lot of people, even in families, there's a lot of times that culture of like it's a competition for who's working the hardest. It's the most burnt out. Yes. So if you're in that,

be aware because that's no way to live your life. You can break free from that. So I think this reminded me a little bit of that. Like she wants to win the prize for the most tired and miserable of everybody, which if you're going to lead with that, it's not going to lead to happy relationships. Right. I agree. And expecting everyone to greet you with an air of, you almost you wear it as a badge of superiority,

which is not particularly fun for other people to be around. Totally. Yep. Yep. So look, I mean, for this listener, I get it. I think people would be annoyed if you're like feeling so exhausted. And someone's like, oh, I didn't get to bed till 11 p.m. I feel so exhausted, you know, that might feel irritating.

But I think the big picture is you don't want to be winning a prize for the most miserable. If that's how you're going to lead your life, it's going to end you down a pretty bad path. I agree. All right. Let's do another one. I've been crushing on one of my guy best friends for an embarrassingly long amount of time, like over five years. I know in my gut that we will probably never be anything more than friends, but every so often will have an interaction that makes me wonder if maybe the feelings are mutual and there could be a chance

of a relationship. Anyway, I recently heard from another guy friend saying that my crush guy friend matched with and has been talking to one of my very best friends on a dating app for a while. She absolutely knows how I feel about this guy. We even talked about it not too long ago. And it's really hard for me to process that she would do this, especially behind my back. I'm feeling really hurt and upset, not by the fact that my guy friend isn't into me. I'm used to that sort of rejection, LOL, but that my so-called BFF would initiate things with him and not even tell me about it.

I feel like she didn't tell me because she knows it would make me upset, but I also really don't like confrontations. The idea of bringing it up to her seems unfathomable. On the other hand, how am I supposed to look at her and just pretend things are fine when I'm feeling really hurt? Am I overreacting? Is this a valid trigger? Okay. So I think this is very triggering. Almost not that her friend was speaking to this guy because I don't think you can really like call dibs on a guy that like you're not seeing. But the fact that she didn't tell you is like the part that's really upsetting because it almost I think it makes you feel like somewhat pathetic in some way. Like one, you didn't think I could handle it or two like now being now I'm like the butt of like the joke. I'm like the only one who's like out of the loop on this. Totally. and it almost makes it more upsetting than the actual thing. So I would give this like a seven or an eight, maybe.

I feel like this is a nine. I don't like this. And it's not like they met in real life and had like some off the charts chemistry. She swiped on him on Hinch or whatever the app was. Right. It's like just don't, there's a million guys. You had to swipe on the guy that you know your friend had a crush on for five years. I think that's pretty.

Maybe she knows him too. I guess. You know, well, sometimes it can feel like, that's what I'm saying. Let's say her friend has always has been saying she's had this big crush on this guy for all this time. But her, the friend next to her could also feel like she always kind of thought he was cute, but she doesn't want to, in my mind, I'm imagining a scenario where like they're all kind of like in a groupish. Okay. And like one of the friends has always been like really vocal about, like, right? You've probably had this, right?

Where someone's like calls dibs and for the rest of their life, that's their, you know, passive boys. Like, massive boyfriend. Right. And the other friends are like, yeah, this, I mean, you're really into this guy for a reason. Like, he's really cute or whatever. But you don't really feel like you can get in there because the other person has sort of mentally claimed them. And I think that, again, I'm not blaming. I don't blame the friend for like being attracted or into this guy or maybe like, kind of like liking the fact that he's talking to her. I think it makes it. That happens. I mean, it's fun. Like, we live in a world. We're in a social world. People who are like more connected to you seem safer and you're probably even more likely to be speaking to them than you would otherwise.

I think the fact that she didn't tell her is the part that that would be really like the most upsetting to me because I do think she could her friend like you said with the with the last email like the friend could be upset about it. You're allowed to be upset. It's not her favorite first choice. But I think it would feel more respectful and nice if the friend were like, hey, I know you've always kind of like harbored a secret thing for whatever his name. is like I came across him on a dating app and I've always kind of thought it was cute but I never I never really felt comfortable saying that because I know you were so into him but I've also kind of liked him but I didn't really feel comfortable saying that and I just want to let you know

like I have been talking to him I really don't want to upset you but I also wanted to let you know and if it's really really upsetting for you that I'm doing this like I can stop speaking to him but we are kind of having a good conversation again if it I don't want to jeopardize our friendship, if it means a lot to you, I will stop speaking to them. Right. And then the friend will kind of then at least feel like she had a say in it and she had something. And I also think it might be good for her in that way. Like some ways. Right. To be like, okay, for five years, I've been every interaction. I'm now over analyzing to see if maybe there's a moment or maybe he's into me. Like, this in some ways could be like, all right, let's let go. Let's focus on meeting someone new. Let's like

get out there and meet a potential real candidate. That might be like, actually almost better for her. I just think the way it's handled that it's secretive and she found out through someone else probably does give her a war of a right to be really upset and mad. Totally. No, I agree. I agree with all that. I agree with having the conversation. I do think it makes a big difference whether or not this was like her friend that this other person never met and didn't really know very well versus like a guy that they were all kind of hanging out with. Because I think if it was like a brand, you know, if it was like, okay. I have this very close guy friend that you don't really know and you had the opportunity to just

not swipe on him when you saw him knowing that he's someone I have a crush on. I think that's very different than if the scenario that you paint, which is they were all kind of friends with him and she just verbalized it, which I've seen happen many times in friend groups, which is quite annoying. I could see that being annoying when it's sort of like there's like amazing hot guy, you know, kind, funny, smart. And then you just like stake your. claim forever and ever. Without actually having dated them. Right.

Totally. Yeah, I agree. I think nowadays from people that I've spoken to who are like younger or even in college, like a lot of the times you already know people, but then the dating app is like an easier, less vulnerable way of like stating that you're into each other. Because if you swipe right on someone and they swipe left on you, you don't match. And then no one has to be embarrassed that you said your leisure claim. But if you both swipe right, then you've sort of both admitted to being into it.

it can make someone that you already know in person easier to get to know in that way. Yeah, totally. No, I get it. I totally get it. I think how triggered she should feel depends on the friend's relationship with this guy. I don't know that I don't think she really talked about it. But yeah, I don't agree with that idea of like staking claim on someone forever that you haven't even dated. And it's just like a funny phenomenon.

It's just interesting to talk about on here. And I think it happens like in college a lot and in those situations. where there's like big boy girl friend groups where someone's like because they've verbalized it now they've like nobody else is ever allowed to date that guy ever again which is just sort of a manipulative way of handling a crush totally especially if you haven't dated or even hooked up with them i think there's a little bit you know but i do think she should confront her friend and say you know again we're not dating i understand that but like you know just that i've always kind of held this crush on him. I talk about it all the time. And it just felt kind of

hurtful that I would have to find this out from someone else. And that if that was the case that you wouldn't give me like the respect of just letting me know and telling me at least. Yeah, I think a conversation would be helpful. I mean, because if they end up dating and she just brings them around and they walk in together, that's going to be really awkward. Right. So yeah, bring it out in the open. Okay. Let's do one more. Okay. My triggered scenario is about a kind of ongoing fight between me and my husband that doesn't seem to be going away despite the fact that it's pretty low stakes. My husband and I are expecting our first child and we live in a house in the burbs.

We eat 90% of our dinners together at the table at the kitchen instead of in front of the TV like we used to in our apartment. We have nicer furniture now in a bunch of space. So to me it makes sense. We do both work from home. So sometimes we don't have a ton to talk about by the time dinner rolls around and we kind of just putter on our phones. My husband is a really fast eater and he has a bad habit where he'll scarf down his food and then just get up and start doing the dishes while I'm still eating my meal. He did it consistently for months and one night he just caught me in a bad mood and I exploded at him about how rude he was being. This is very much related to our first day in email.

He in general disagrees and thinks it makes him feel like a kid asking his mom for permission to be excused. I think he's the one acting like a child at the dinner table who's so anxious to get up and get back to watching Netflix or playing video games. It just makes me feel really disrespected and triggers my insecurity about my eating. If you can't tell, I'm also a DST listener. His argument is basically makes dinner every single night, this big thing that it doesn't have to be. And it just feels annoying to him when it's just the two of us. Anyway, after a huge blowout fight about this issue, we agreed to disagree, but he would respect my wishes because it mattered to me more. It's also like what we just discussed.

We're just asking him to do the thing. Well, I'm not a monster and I can certainly understand that there are times when he wants to just get through dinner and not sit and linger. Within our fight, we basically agreed that he should just use his judgment and let me know if slash when he's getting up, even if I'm still eating. Just a simple, hey, I've got a long night of work ahead of me. I'm going to get back to it. Would make me feel so much more respected. I would do the same of the situation wherever reversed. It basically never is. He eats really fast. However, every time this has happened since the big fight, he makes a shitty joke, will her say in a teasing tone, the playoffs are on. May I be excused? Calling back to his, I feel like a child's. I feel like a child

at the dinner table argument. He thinks that this is funny and I think he's just being an asshole. To me, this is unnecessary and really triggering. Like, he knows this is a bigger deal to me than it is to him and it just hurts my feelings, even if he thinks I'm being over the top. Can he just let it go? Am I right to be triggered or am I actually the one who should just let it go? What do you think? I think it's funny because I do think this leads a lot back to what we were talking about before where they're trying to fix it with these little rules, you know, kind of like, okay, we had the conversation. we're not going to dig into it. Let's just try this strategy where we just make up a rule of what works and what doesn't,

but he's clearly just making a joke out of it and not, you know, taking. I think that's the worst part is that he's taking her feelings and like making a joke out of it, even though it is kind of funny, you know, to say, may I be excused? I could see that being like a funny little way of saying, I think this is absurd. I think this is a bigger issue. She wants some quality time with him. I don't think she's addressing it in the best way. or he's not receiving it in the best way,

that it's about the meal and him sitting with her until she finishes, although I think that's a reasonable request to sit down and have dinner together and spend 20 minutes doing so or whatever the time limit might be. I think it's a reasonable request, but I think what she really wants is some quality time with him. And whether she can ask for it in a different way

or maybe express it to him in a way that he realizes that she just wants quality time. time with him, I think would be maybe a better conversation. But it sounds like on this one, the whole like let's just come up with a plan and execute is not working for them. Right. Where especially, I mean, it sounds like it would be working if he didn't kind of harbor a resentment towards having to do it. Right. Although she says again that they're just kind of like on their phones at the table and they don't have much to talk about. So I can see why in his mind, he's like, I'm sitting here for the sake of sitting here. We're not even really talking much or doing much.

So it almost like in my mind to her leaves like an idea of okay this isn't really the quality time that I'm this the solution isn't even really working for me despite what the right the comment is. So maybe it's okay, you know, we can each eat dinner on our own and then one night a week we go out to dinner and that's like our night together where we're out on the town like it doesn't I can understand why he is like every dinner can't be this like extreme quality time thing for for us while just the two of us or I don't know. know that necessarily makes as much sense if we're speaking all day. And again, I think if she brings up, like you said, the idea of what I really want from you is more quality time where we really have more intimacy. Maybe there's a new solution that he can help think of too. Totally. That he wants to do as well. Yeah, something that he might be more into doing. Like we can watch a show together or maybe we can, you know, whatever it is, meet for lunch in the middle of the day or, you know, yeah, I agree that I think that it does seem like she's not asking for what she really wants.

You know, I think that somehow, and I do think there's probably, she's having some type of association and she mentions it perhaps with some trigger about eating alone, how eating alone makes her feel or something about that that might be something that she needs to work through. And it could also be kind of like an upbringing thing. You know, I think, you know, Jeff and I are very different like that. Like they had family meals every night, like all together. And so that's a big deal to him to kind of like all eat together as a family.

And we just kind of had like a grab a slice of pizza, bake ziti, you know, plate and just eat it whenever you eat it. So I think there is something that might feel, you know, I think she's pregnant. So she might feel like this is a sign of what's going to happen. Are we going to have family meals together? Are we going to have like I think a lot of times when people are pregnant, they start to think ahead to like what they want the family. system to look like. Right. And she probably doesn't want the family system to look like I'm sitting here eating by myself and the kids are, you know, we're all kind of separate. So that might be part of what's playing into it too. Yeah. Or a fear of like losing her, the intimacy with her partner as they're about

to like become parents or even just being, again, if both people work from home and we talked about this on a different episode, I think, both people work from home, you can kind of feel like you're turning into someone's roommate. Right. Because, you know, you work next to each other and you're kind of like, you're over exposed to them. And I could see why he'd be like, okay, we're together all day. And then we're now doing a dinner together where we continue to be together and we're not even really saying anything.

Totally. What is the point of it? I could see almost like on both ends. Like, I don't think it's really working for either of them, the solution they have here. So it's kind of like what would, I think for, it's up to both of you. You can discuss that in a conversation you have where it becomes about. the intimacy, like, what's your ideal way to have quality time together, not just time? What makes you feel connected to me? And then you can share that with him and then come up with,

like, what overlaps in that sense to like do together. Yeah, that sounds like, that's a great idea. I think this is a bigger conversation. And I agree. It's the whole work from home. We're together all day. Do we need to sit and pretend, you know, to have this like family meal where we're both just sitting on our phones anyway? Why can't I sit on the couch, which is seven feet away? And do the same thing on a softer cushion. So I get why he's annoyed, but I get, you know, I think this is a bigger issue for her. The work from home thing is hard. I think sometimes you almost, you know, have to sort of force a little separation so you can enjoy the time that you are spending together, you know, like maybe not be kind of talking all day or maybe someone can go and

work at a coffee shop or kind of create a little bit of that distance. So it's not just like, constant, you know, absence makes the heart grow fonder a little bit. Totally. And if you don't speak to each other all day, even if you're our both home, let's say you're like, okay, well, we woke up together and I'll see you at dinner. You probably have a lot more to talk to them about at dinner. You know, you'll talk about your whole day and what went on at work and what was happening or was something you felt with the baby and, you know, or was something you want to do about that. Like, I found that trying to do that made the time we did spend together a lot more exciting because eventually I do think you kind of, you're with someone all day, every day, you do run out of topics.

Like there's not endless amounts of things to discuss. Totally. So you and Mike did a thing where you just tried to like have more distance working from home during the day, like not interact as much. Yeah. And that was mostly, I mean, he was good at that. I was like, because if someone's in the other room, I'm like, well, what do you think of this lamp? Like, or what do you know what I mean? Or where there's this crazy thing that just happened where it's like, and again, so then you're relaying the information not in the other person's in the middle of work so they're not even they're they get it and they have the information they're not really fully discussing it and then you kind of feel like there's not much to go over later I find that we have the best dinners or the best evenings together

when I come back from a trip or when he went into the office that day and he comes home and we have like a fun catch up where we talk about all the things that happened and what we think about them totally yeah I think that's a great idea even just like don't send the text or don't you know call out the thing. Just maybe save it in a, you know, in your mind to the side as something to talk about during dinner. So then at least if you're going to do this dinner thing, there's actually something that you're, it is quality time because you're not just sitting there being separate anyway. Right. That makes a lot of sense. I think one or the other either the dinner isn't the thing that's going to make you feel connected. So pick something else. Maybe you go for a walk after

dinner or whatever, something that feels like it's, you know, more fulfilling for both of you, or chill out with all the contact during the day so that you actually have something to, you know, talk about when you're together. But yeah, he doesn't sound like he's liking this solution. It doesn't really sound like it's working for him. So I would reevaluate how you're going to move forward with addressing what it sounds like is probably just like you said, this roommate situation where it feels like they're just turning into just kind of roommates that sit and share space together. But yeah, that comment was annoying.

I'd give it a five. I might agree with a five. I think it was pretty funny. Like I could almost see myself making a, I could see myself almost making a comment like that. Which isn't nice. I agree. It's not the nicest thing.

It's a pretty funny way of just like expressing this is, this is ridiculous. We need to reevaluate this plan. Right. Fine. Maybe a four. Yeah. Because it was funny.

If it wasn't funny, it would be a higher rate. Right. All right. Well, that's our episode. today, I think we solved all these people's issues. I hope so. All right, that's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Pucco, and Rebecca Salis McHan. Editing by Massilo Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to

oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294.