Oversharing - How To Confront A Toxic Family Dynamic

Episode Date: June 21, 2022

Jordana starts the show with a story about having a positive customer service interaction (thanks to some great advice from the listeners). Then they dive into a conversation about setting the scene for a difficult conversation, and Naomi tells us what “doorknob comments” are in therapy. A listener calls in with an advice question about a toxic family dynamic involving her brother-in-law, and asks how to approach the relationship with her sister going forward. How do you share your true feelings without alienating a loved one? The Betchicist email of the week comes from a listener who has a family reunion planned but now feels pressured to miss it for a work obligation. Finally, the Triggered submissions include a know-it-all friend, a thoughtless boyfriend, and some relationship envy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jirgana Abraham and I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And we're back. Thank you guys for all of, again, for all your feedback.

I know we say this every week, for continuing to write really good emails and leave really interesting voice. I feel like there's so many different topics to like really get into. So it's very exciting to like see the full range. Like I feel like we get to see things on everything. So many. It's more than I even thought, you know, like I just, I really love it. The work stuff, the family stuff, in-law stuff. It's great. Yeah. I want to thank the listeners because I mean, a few weeks to get one of our first episodes we did a, I talked about like customer service and my issues was speaking to people and how mad and riled up I got and like all this other stuff.

And then we got feedback in later episodes. And if you haven't listened to other episodes, go back and listen to them. And you can hear sort of the saga of my journey to have better interactions with customer service reps. And we heard from a few people. And I think we got a lot of tips from the people themselves and sort of a little more insight into what they experience every day and sort of just like insight from the other side about how they would like to be interacted with

and how to get the most out of your customer service experience. So I had, right before we started recording, I don't know why I decided to do all of my customer service calls on Monday mornings before we record. But this morning, I called United because I had a flight from United and it was supposed to be a direct flight. And then I happened to look in the app and they switched the flight to like a connecting flight both ways.

And it appears they have gotten rid of. whatever the direct flight was, didn't say anything. I'm understandably irritated, I think, in my mind. And so before I called them, I thought back and I read back a couple of those customer service emails we had from people who, that's their job. And they gave, again, a little bit more insight about why being kind goes a lot further than being really angry and just like other little tips of nice things to say. I give you a lot of credit for stopping and pausing. saying, okay, how can I do this differently this time and like actually opening the emails and reading them over? That was great. Thank you. Yeah. I felt very, um, I felt prepped this time.

There you go. I discovered this change on Saturday and I was very irritated by it, but I let it sit for like a couple days. That's why Monday mornings are the worst probably for customer service because everyone's stewing over the weekend. And then as soon as the lines open, Monday morning, it's like ringing off the hook with people raging. Yeah, sure. Although at least for airlines, they seem to be like somewhat open more, a little more, less than traditional hours, I think. Right.

I don't know. Anyway, but yeah, that's probably being a customer service rep, but on Monday morning is probably extremely difficult. So tell us how you were the breath of fresh air for them on this Monday morning. Yeah, you know me, the picture of, uh, of stability and wellness. So basically I called and this is a shout out, I guess. to Shauna at United. Well, I called.

And then I think they had an issue where they put me on the phone with someone who didn't realize they had a caller. So they were just speaking in like a different language, whoever it was. They were just speaking. And I was like, hello. And they were kept speaking like to someone else. It's like calling mom. Right. Yeah.

And I'm like, hello, can you hear me? And then I brought the phone to Mike. I'm like, is this person like, I'm not crazy. Right. This person's like just speaking like not to me. But they like I can hear them, but they can't hear me. So then I hung up and I called back again. But I was like, okay, you're going to take it deeper.

It didn't take that long to get on the phone with them, which is why I think it was fine. If I had been on hold for like an hour, I would have been very irritated. But I said, I was just like, okay, this is fine. I'm okay. So I called back and I was just like very calmly explain the situation. And I was like, listen, like I know. And I used some tips. I said, I know that you didn't do this.

This isn't your fault. It's a little upsetting to me that like. this happened, you know, I wasn't even really told about it. And, you know, it's happened both ways on these flights. And it's just, uh, I don't know if I would have picked this flight if I had known that it was a connecting flight. Exactly. Yeah. And then I was like, you know, what can we do here? Like, do you think that it would be possible to upgrade a couple of like the seats? Because, um, you know, I just feel like that would make me feel like asks for something specifically and then just keep saying thank you.

The whole, like, I would, I so appreciate. She's like, let me talk to my supervisor. And she came back. It worked. And then not only did it work, but I felt like very proud of myself, which was like a positive feeling. Yeah. That I was able to like apply these tips, remain calm, be very nice.

And I assume the other person, I didn't like leave that interaction being pissed off at me either. So I thought it was overall a pleasant experience. and we each got a little bit, but not probably as, I mean, she wasn't giving me like a first class ticket. So it wasn't like I got everything I wanted, but I did get premium economy or whatever it is. So everyone lost a little. Everyone won a little bit. And I felt like overall very pleased with the interaction and just excited to to continue my day with like somewhat of a win, which was really nice. So thank you to the listeners. Totally. Thank you. That's awesome. And it really does

go so much better if you can just stop and pause and try to, like I always say, move forward with intention. Like you had a plan. You were calm. You executed. And it worked well for the other person. And way to go. Good stuff. Thank you. Again, thanks again for writing in on the other side, because I think a lot of the times we go into all of these interactions and we'll see that in our overshare voicemail. But I think a lot of the times we go into all of these interactions and we're only thinking about like our own side of it and we're only thinking about like how upset and how right we are and how like you almost like dig into that. I think the biggest difference was thinking about those DMs and emails that we got and just putting myself in the other person's shoes for

like a second. And then you're like how would I want to be spoken to? Like what would make me want to help someone? What would make me want to like come to someone? And I think that obviously this can be this can be further shown to all sorts of actual interpersonal experiences with people you actually know. But in this case, it was with a stranger. And I have a lot of, I've had a lot of other negative customer service experiences. So I'm definitely not perfect. But this was the one where I was like, I'm going to like do this with intention. Right. And it's so much better. If you just let your emotions lead your interactions, it's probably not going to go great unless it's all like happy loving emotions. And then it even, even then might be like,

a little intense. You kind of have to, you know, make a choice on how you want to handle things. That's awesome. Let's see if it continues to work. I guess we'll see. Now I'll have to, I hadn't done more meditation since the last time we recorded, but it does seem, it seems like there's elements of there, of that. Anytime I feel like you, you just take a second and you think about, like, the things that you're going to do, I feel like that's sort of a mini form of medit, or is that just an entirely different concept? You tell me. No, it's, that's exactly what it is. I mean, I think if you're acting consciously, like we go on autopilot, almost all of what we do is on autopilot. So if you just take yourself off autopilot for a split second, that is mindfulness.

You know, mindfulness is just taking yourself off autopilot, making a choice. How does my body feel? How do I want to approach this? What is my intention in this interaction? Like even I said, people that do a lot of mindfulness meditation, they speak more slowly because they are, being intentional. They're not just, you know, acting on autopilot. So you could do that 500 times a day for two seconds.

And it would, I think, be pretty life-changing. Right. I think the idea of it seems so intimidating because it's kind of like the idea of going from, I'm constantly just not really thinking about the things that I'm doing and I'm just doing them to I'm always thinking about that seems like such a drastic hard change to Right. So you know what I mean? Totally. And I think the problem people have with mindfulness, it's like I'm not even, sometimes you feel like you feel like you're living your life more because you're actually in the moment of your life. But sometimes the effort that it takes to do that feels like it's distracting from what you're used to, which is all this constant chatter in your mind. And it sort of feels like I'm not even myself anymore. If I'm not like, totally living in this world of my like I'm ignoring myself almost. Like I'm, I'm ignoring all my mind chatter and it feels like I'm just like trying so hard to focus on being this very different type of person.

I totally agree with that. Or it can feel kind of boring almost like. I try to mindfully eat because I eat very fast. I just kind of like wolf down whatever is in front of me. Right. And I've tried the mindful eating thing. And I'm just like, this is very boring. Right.

Just like thinking about each bite is like. Right. I want to stress about some drama. I want to get mad at somebody. I want to worry about something. It's like a little bit. And that comes down to, and that's a whole different, we can shelf it, but like your biochemistry, you know, like you're a bunch of, you know, neurotransmitters and hormones and chemicals

flowing through your body. And it's almost like you get used to having that activated at a certain level. Right. To where when you take it down and all that stuff comes down, it feels like you're craving all that chemical excitement. of what happens in your brain when you're worrying and you're stressing and there's drama. So I think a big part of it is just like, it's like a detox. You have to, the more you do it, the more you get used to living on a level of a little bit

less stress and it doesn't feel as boring after a while. It actually feels joyful after a while because you're becoming joyful at just the, whatever it is, the sound of the birds or the color of the grass or something like that, which you have to kind of train yourself into. So here's my question for you. Like if you're trying to get into that kind of thing, can it be like slow or do you have to commit to doing it constantly? Like can I be like, okay, I'm going to eat mindfully one meal a day or I'm going to like take a walk and without my headphones one day, time a week or something? Or is it kind of thing where like you have to do it constantly in order for it to be working?

No, I think the more you do, the better. Like just doing what you did with the customer service, I think is a great start. That's a great start. And then if you can eat your lunch later on mindfully, that's great. And if you don't, that's fine. You know, it doesn't have to be, again, the 20 minutes of meditation in a quiet room with a guided meditation or whatever you're going to do. That's great because that's really like that training yourself. That's like the detox period.

But I think it's even more helpful in some ways just to do it for three seconds. 10 times a day or even to do it for three seconds every day before you interact with somebody that you know is going to be difficult or before you exercise is a great time to use mindfulness. I can talk about that more at another point. But you could just inject it in little bits and pieces. And the idea is I think you'll start to realize how helpful it is and then you kind of crave doing it more often or it starts to come more naturally. I like that. Okay. Yeah. We could definitely get into that. Now it's time for the overshare voicemail the week.

So before we get into this week's overshare email, let's talk about like the best way to approach these difficult conversations. We just talked about sort of like thinking about them mindfully, right? So in a hypothetical scenario where someone is like annoying you or something, someone is doing something that you kind of want to confront them on or overshare, if you will, what do you think are the best, like what's the best atmosphere or like setting? We just discussed how doing something the second you think about it when you're kind of activated is not really the way to go.

So like what settings or, you know, what things about the setting would you encourage for confronting someone with something that they're doing that's irritating you? Totally. So I, one, again, like you're saying, the setting, I think having enough time. So not trying to squeeze it in. I think a lot of people due to avoidance might sometimes be like, this person's running out for, they're leaving for the day. I'm just going to drop this little bomb and run, you know, like, so it might be an avoidance technique

to try to do it when there's not a lot of time because then you feel like you can't have a whole long conversation. It makes it feel easier. So I would not recommend that. I think you have to do it at a time where there's plenty of time to have the conversation. In therapy, we always say there's people have door knob comments, which means like they want to say something kind of the whole session. And then they wait until they're right about to walk out the door and they like have their hand on the doorknob and then they say, oh, and I, and I just also wanted to tell you this. And it's like some big, huge thing that needs like the whole session to discuss, but they only kind of either got the courage to talk about it at the very end or they're dropping the seeds or whatever it is.

So or they don't really want to talk about it, but they feel like they like should or have to or they told themselves they were going to bring it up. So it's like, okay, I brought it up. And now I'm leaving. I feel like that happens a lot if you're like a couple, like before you're supposed to like go some more public. Like you think you talked about this before. It's like, oh, we were like on the, you could tell on the drive they were fighting about something and they show up. Right. Right. Show up. Yeah. Totally. So I think having enough time to have the conversation and obviously doing it when the other person seems like they have calm body, calm mind and you have calm body, calm mind as much as you possibly can, although these things are probably going to make you anxious

if it's a difficult conversation. I find it so hard to do that because you're kind of like when things are so common for both people are kind of in a good mood and calm. You're like, why do I want to rock the boat by bringing up this contentious thing that could potentially start a fight when like, why not bring it up when things are already on edge? Yes. It's so tempting. It's so tempting because then you're also like you get more angry, like even if it's a work situation or if it's a, you know, whatever it is. You're like, okay, now it's on. I'm already mad. You're already mad. Now I'm going to throw this fuel on the fire, which in my opinion is. really not productive because then now you're talking about four different things instead of

talking about one thing. Everybody's already upset. You're already like in fight or flight mode. So it's very hard to get things almost impossible to get things resolved in that type of an environment. And again, be mindful of it. Like everybody's had that argument with their partner where then they bring up some other thing that has like barely anything to do with what you're talking about. And it's like, what does that even have to do with this? Where did that come from? Right. So either they've been holding onto it and now they're already upset so they feel like they can bring it up or they're just trying to like even the score somehow in that moment, which that's not helpful.

So I would definitely avoid that. I would avoid doing the thing where you wait until a fight and then throw this fuel onto the fire. But it is very tempting to do that, especially when you've avoided it for too long. You know, when you're calm and everything's good, it's all in the delivery. I think people find, or myself, I have like a catch phrase. I'll be like, you know, I just wanted to talk to you when you have a chance. Or is this a good time? Is now a good time to talk or something like that?

And then, you know, if it's Jeff or whoever, he kind of always knows that there's something coming. He's like, oh, okay. Yes, it's back. Right. When you say that, though, it kind of has to be then. Otherwise, it's like, if someone said that, to me, I would need to be like right then because I'm like, I can't now just think about it's going to be all I'm thinking about what you want. I'm going to be like all anxious about the thing I'm

going to get yelled at. Totally. Totally. Or you could say, look, you know, and sometimes, and I don't know if this is a personal thing. I don't know if this will work for everybody, but I just kind of say something kind and remind like, I'm not mad at you. I love you. Everything's okay. I just want to say, you know, there's just something that was on my mind. So you kind of give them the piece of like, I'm not like, this isn't major. I'm not, we're not. ending the relationship. I'm not like fuming. I just have something that I want to discuss with you, but we're okay and I love you and we can do it at any point. I like that. It makes the person probably want to be more okay leaning into the conversation than like feeling like they want to

get it over with or like shut down whatever you're going to say. Right. Or even gives them the opportunity to say, you know what, this isn't a good time. Like can we talk about it when I get back from work or can we talk about it whenever? Because they have that. Like, Like you said, they're not anxious. Like, what the heck is this about? Like, I'm not going to be able to think. So they could say, okay, I know we're okay. She has something she wants to talk about and we'll talk about it tonight or whatever.

Totally. I think that's a very respectful, nice thing to do. I remember in COVID or like in the beginning, you know, when everyone was like, we were quarantined and everyone was like together all the time and we'd be working. Mike and I'd be working from the same room in the same apartment and like things come up that are irritating. And it's like the timing is never more important than when you're together all the time. You're kind of like, oh, I have constant access to this person.

But that doesn't really mean you do it. They still need to be a part of the decision of when to have that conversation. As opposed to like, I'm in between meetings. This isn't like. Right. Right. Yeah. I found that especially when we were like planning our wedding, it was like,

because when we were working from home and planning our wedding together, because it was like we had our own jobs and then we had a job that we were doing together. And it was kind of just like the separation. of those things or him kind of like wanting to do that after the workday was done and me wanting to do all that stuff like in the middle maybe like in between my own stuff and it was just I remember that being like the timing being sort of its own became its own issue of things to overcome well I always say and this is for couples this isn't like for other types of or mostly for couples but to be able to say some people want to talk immediately about if there's a conflict if there's an issue they want to

like resolve it quickly, they cannot tolerate that feeling of like, we are in conflict. And oftentimes that person is in relationship with somebody who needs time to chill, process their feelings, take a minute, calm their body. And so that can become a conflict in and of itself when one person wants to talk and one person isn't ready. So I always say, you have to respect the person that isn't ready, but you also, the person that isn't ready needs to give a specific time when they are going to be. be ready. Yeah. Totally. And I think overcoming that. And I think the more, the longer we were together,

the more you kind of know how the other person deals with things the best. And you can sort of, it's easier to anticipate when the other person's going to be at a better time to discuss whatever you're talking about. Right. So after a while, you'll kind of fall into that is the hope. But initially, I think it's good to, you know, kind of work through that process because pressuring someone to communicate when they're not ready is not going to go well. So you're, really have to respect that person's feelings about. Totally. I'm not ready to talk about this right now.

And I think that makes you reflect on the goal of the conversation. Like is the goal to just like spit out everything that you've been thinking so it's like not locked in your body? Or is it to actually come out with like a positive resolution? Because if it's the latter, then it is really important for you personally. Like it's in your best interest to wait for them. If it's about just like unloading all of your. Totally. of your negative energy on someone.

And then obviously you're like, you don't really care if it's good timing for the other person. But I think ultimately, if the goal, which obviously it should be in the healthy situation, which is to come out with a resolution, it's in both of your interest to do it when you're like both in a good state. Right.

And I have, and maybe we'll talk about it some point, I have like this couples conflict cheat sheet that basically walks couples through kind of how to handle it when something starts to get escalated. and it gives some solutions to all of that. I love that. I want to put it on a magnet on my fridge.

Yeah. We should. We should. We can make it. We'll sell it to you guys. Anyway, I'll have to shorten it if we're going to put on a magnet. It's kind of a little bit expensive.

And then, you know, your in-laws or your friends come over. This is an interesting magnet about. Where did you get this? There's a souvenir from. Couple service. Okay, well, let's go to the voicemail. Hi, Jordana and Naomi, I have an overshare for you.

Or really, I'd like to know whether or not you think I overshared by offering my opinion about my brother's mom. So I recently had a baby and my sister recently got married. Her husband is disrespectful to my family and just overall a really unpleasant person to be around. He doesn't treat my sister well. She's older and she's been trying to get pregnant as well. So when I got pregnant, I rehashed some issues with her husband's behavior and I said that I like to prioritize working on them together because I do not want this toxic family shed around our kid

and she shut me out because of it. As her family of origin, quote unquote, I came second and she did not come to our gender reveal or my baby shower. I had so many frustrating conversations with her while I was pregnant, which resulted in just tons of tears. And for my, like, well-being and my baby, we acknowledge that we cannot resolve our differences immediately. And so she said he is not going to change how he treats our family, her husband.

And now our baby's here and I have not kept the baby from her, but she tries to act like nothing is wrong. I had a short conversation with her and what I kind of forgave her, but really I will never feel the same towards her. This has changed our relationship, like for good. Her husband's behavior has not gotten any better either. So how do I handle this moving forward? Like what should I do?

How can I, I want to keep a obligation-only relationship with her so that I don't upset my parents or family. But I really feel like she gaslights me. She tries to plan family vacations with my husband, the baby, and me, and acts like nothing happened. So I guess my question is, do you think that I overshared and should I have handled this? differently. Thanks so much. Hey, well, thank you for this voicemail. I think this is a very good one. I think if a couple things stood out to me, I thought it was interesting when she said like, when she wanted to go talk to her sister about her husband's behavior, she was like, and I want to talk about like, how we can overcome your husband's behavior, which I thought was if we're talking about setting or

like phrasing maybe wouldn't elicit the best response for me. If I were her, I would have started that, I think it's totally fine to share your thoughts and sort of try to get through whatever. It sounds like there's a tension between her brother-in-law and her and the rest of her family. But I would have phrased it like,

can we talk about the way that we interact together or just making it like a two-way thing or like, can we talk about some tension that I feel? within the family? Because I think to bring something up and say, like, can we talk about why your husband is so rude? Like, it's not going to be inviting to someone. Totally. Yeah, I think she was on the page of, I don't want your husband's toxic behavior around my child.

And how can we prevent that from happening? So, yeah, I think, we don't know for sure, but it sounds like maybe when she, so I don't think it was an overshare necessarily that she had this conversation with her sister. but I am curious. I wish we had a recording of that conversation and how that went. I'm curious to see how she approached that. Because for her to shut her out because of that conversation, my hunch is that maybe it wasn't,

the delivery might have been off, perhaps, like you're saying. So, yeah, I think initially, I think you have to have this conversation. And I do think a lot of people, I mean, I experienced this before my own wedding. And when I was pregnant, and I think a lot of people do when you have kind of difficult family dynamics where you're like, okay, this is a fresh start. Like, I don't want my, I don't want my new family to be involved in this toxic stuff or this, you know, family conflict. I don't want my baby to be raised in this environment.

So a lot of people look at that as an opportunity to say, okay, let's address this. Clear the air, yeah, which I think is nice. I think the intention behind it seems good and positive. Right. And I think the fact that the sister is just kind of ignoring the whole thing, I don't know, but it might be worth like a take two on the conversation. Like maybe, you know, it's not like the sister's so angry about the fact that she brought this up. At first she said she shut her out. But then now she clearly wants to have a relationship.

She wants to plan vacation. She's ready to get back into it. But there might be an opportunity here if she asks for a vacation or she asks to get together that the listener, might be able to say, hey, you know, I know we talked about this before and it didn't go well. I'd really love to reopen a conversation and just clear the air. But I want to do it in a way. Obviously, last time, however, I brought it up didn't work for you or something was upsetting to you about that.

And I don't want that to happen again. But I do feel like there's some stuff here that we still need to discuss. Yeah. And I think a lot of the times it's almost like, because when you say something sort of like personality encompassing, like your husband is rude and he, if you're bringing it up like that, like her husband is rude and disrespectful and I don't like the way he treats you. That is like, I think, less helpful and less, it's like easy to like sort of, for at least for her sister in her mind to be like, that's your opinion.

Like I don't see him like that at all. Or you're bashing my husband. This is like now she feels like she has to pick one way or the other. Right. when I think the more helpful thing is like when he said this like I would bring up like evidence specific examples that don't make you seem like you just have a grudge against this person and are generally attributing like overall personality traits to them instead like bringing up a couple of examples and how they make you feel so like when he said I didn't again she didn't give any examples here so

I don't really know what they are or I don't necessarily want to speculate them but like when he said X this made me feel like he wasn't treating you like you deserve to be treated or when he said why like it hurt my feelings that I felt like that was insulting to me or something because then at least you have like specific things to go with it doesn't seem like you're just like and also like that feels more recoverable because saying like your husband is rude and disrespectful is like she now either has to say like okay you're right I have a rude and disrespectful husband which most people probably do not want to do if they're planning on being married to them, or this person said these few disrespectful things, which again, allows

her more space to be like accepting of your feelings and accepting of him and maybe thinking like she could work on those types of things with him. Right. And it makes it easier for her to bring it back to her husband and say, well, my sister said when you said this and did this, it hurt her feelings or whatever versus my sister thinks that you're an asshole like what is he supposed to do about that right he's only going to be defensive about that and i would be that way too like if someone said to mike like your wife is rude and an asshole i would be like all right fuck that person right and how is he going to even approach that with you without making you upset and now you're going to not want to see that now there's two angry people in the situation versus just one which ends up making it

worse. Not that it's going to be easy to say to the husband, I'm sure, either. But if he said, if Mike said to me, like, you know, you said this thing to my mom and it really hurt her feelings. Yes. Much easier to handle. Yeah. Even if the sentiment was the same, like your wife's an asshole, right? Or your wife's a bitch. But like even if the sentiment feeling behind that was the same, to me, it would be a lot easier to like see someone's point of view or like, or think about what I'm saying. If I, you talk about the one action and how it affected the other person than giving me an overall personality trait. Right.

And look, I think the other part that you can do here to soften the blow, because, look, she said that's her older sister. She's trying to get pregnant. Right. Is that what they said? Yeah, she's older. She's trying. The younger sister had a baby.

Right. I'm sure that they're going through some stuff with that. And they're just, you know, probably stressed out or whatever's going on. I think there's always, it's always beneficial to kind of. acknowledge the other side of things. Like I, you know, realize that this might be difficult for him. I could see maybe I could have handled this or that differently, like taking some ownership. This is on my couple's cheat sheet. Coming back into the interaction and like starting off with some type of ownership or validation or, you know, something that she can say that can kind of

soften her a little bit. Let some of her sisters steam out when she's bringing this up versus coming at it with just all these attacks. I think. might be helpful. I'm sure that they're stressed out in some way. And maybe that's affecting him. And, you know, if he really is not being nice, either there's something going on with him, right? Either maybe he's depressed or he's dealing with his own issues or maybe there's something that they're doing that's upsetting him again, looking at the other side of it too. But as far as moving forward, the other thing, and I don't know if we've talked about this on here, but honestly, if she decides that, you know, she wants to have an obligation-only relationship, it sounds like this listener

has decided that she just kind of wants to keep things. Get over it. Right. Can't get over it. She's really upset. And she doesn't want to have the conversation again. And that's okay too if she decides she doesn't want to do that. You know, with family things, I always, I think it's easier to see it as like, this doesn't

have to be a forever decision. This is like a right now decision. You know, maybe if the sister does have a baby and things change in their life or because, like you've said before with friendships, like maybe we're not going to be the closest. right now. It doesn't mean that we're never going to be close again, but like we don't have to force this closeness if it feels like it's not happening naturally right now. And maybe time can kind of heal some of this. Because it's a big deal to act like I'm never going to have a close, like I think that's what makes these things feel so huge is the cognitive error that you make in your

mind where you say, oh my God, I'm so sad and angry that I'm never going to have a good relationship with my sister again. And I don't think you have to necessarily go there. I think this is something that perhaps could change with time. I agree with that. And it makes it less like, it also makes it less overwhelming for you, the person. If you're kind of like, okay, now I have to decide if I'm like only seeing my sister at obligations or we need to cut her out or I need, I need her to know that we're in an

obligation only thing. Like you could just take it like event by event or interaction by interaction. So if she's saying her sister is like trying to go on vacation with her and her husband and her baby, I think you could just say like you could decline that. And if she asks, maybe that'd be a good way for you to bring up the situation. Or if you don't want to do that, you can just say like whatever the excuses. Although I do think that would be a good opportunity to bring it up in a way that is showing her like why it's so meaningful to you. So to say, you know, I really just, I don't really feel comfortable going on vacation.

I just feel like things are a little bit strained. I don't know if you feel that. And then that could open up that conversation. Or she could get defensive and then probably not want to go on vacation with you anymore. That solves the issue there too. Right. No, I think that's a perfect opportunity to, if she decides she wants to try to have this conversation again in a different way, that might be a perfect opportunity to do it. I would love to go on vacation altogether.

That sounds amazing. I just think there's a few things that we probably need to kind of bring to. the surface before we do that. Right. And hopefully. And then it's kind of win-win for you because if you set your boundary in that way, you're sort of like, okay, your preference is to pretend this never happened and not speak about it anymore.

I just kind of go back to normal. My preference is not to do that, but I'm ultimately like, I'm not going to go if I don't want to go. So like you can either resolve this with me and I'll go because that's the thing you want. Right. Or you can accept that I'm not going to be going on these trips with you and do what want, which is to not discuss this. Right. Or come to a resolution. Yeah. So from what we have here, I would try the conversation again. I think that the person who's sending the voicemail or who left

the voicemail here, I get it. I get why you're upset. You tried to discuss it and she shut the whole thing down and she didn't come to the gender reveal and she, you know, really probably you felt very abandoned by her. So I can understand why you're upset. But I would just give it some time before you tell yourself that you're never going to feel the same. about her again. I think this, you know, there might be an opportunity with a little bit of space and maybe another conversation to repair things. If this is something that continue, like, I'm assuming these women are relatively young in their adulthood at least. And if this continues to happen repeatedly for the next like five, you know, seven years, then at that point you might have to look at,

okay, I have to accept that this is a relationship that I need to keep at a distance. But I think this one conflict that's happened as you're both kind of changing your place in the world and your roles and you're becoming wives and parents. And sometimes there's a little bit of an adjustment period there. So I would just take a breath and take a pause. And this is just, you know, the beginning. So I don't think you need to say that you're never going to be close again as long as if this doesn't keep happening in repeated different ways. I mean, setting back, we, you know, we'll talk about that. And I think we have about at some point, you do have to say, okay, this relationship is not healthy for me.

But I don't think she's there yet. Yeah. And I also, I don't think, I mean, she mentions the word like, I'm her family of origin. And I don't necessarily think that's like a fair way to like discuss why your opinion should be more meaningful than the other person's husband or something like that. Like I don't really believe in that because you also think like, think about it from her sisters. Like you have a husband, you have a child.

You have your own family, right? And she is married too. So this is like also kind of her own. So to say, like, I should have precedence because I'm your family of origin, to me, is not as good of an argument as like, we've always been so close. Right. Do you know what I mean? Don't make it about like the DNA. Totally.

Or I heard that differently. I think I heard that as the sister was saying, because you're my family of origin, I need to put my priorities on my new family. Like, I need to prioritize my new family. To me, it seemed like an argument from. the person leaving the voicemail that they should come first. I don't know. I guess it's hard to interpret that. Okay.

But yeah, I mean, I agree with you then, at least on that point, that I think most people tend to give preference to their new family because that's where they're living now, you know, like you kind of,

especially if you have a baby, sort of like, okay, I have to prioritize the relationships that are most present in my life currently. Thank you for all the memories. They were great. I've moved on.

Right. You can't use like historic reasons, I think, as an argument point. You should be closer because we are X more related or something or blood or something. Like I don't think that's a good, helpful way to go. Should we get into our badgesist email? Yeah, let's see what we have. You want to read it? Yeah, I'll read it.

Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. Love the pod and appreciate everything you do. I have a dilemma. I would love to get your advice on. I work for a small nonprofit and I care a lot about our cause. Low key, this is my life mission. We have a really small team, three people, with a lot of responsibility. To be honest, we're spread pretty thin and each of us takes on a lot of responsibility.

About six months ago, my parents planned a family vacation to Japan, where we're from, and bought our flight tickets. My extended family planned a huge reunion for our visit. I still haven't informed my boss yet about my trip. I totally should have told him when we got the tickets, but I've been putting it off. I still have four weeks until the trip, so I was planning to tell him in the next few weeks. But now, we just found out that a huge event for a nonprofit will overlap with my vacation. This is what we've been working toward for the past year.

But the timeline was still up in the air because it depended on a government agency to give their timeline. If you work for a small company, one that you feel invested in, should you get quote unquote, approval for vacations? my parents would lose thousands of dollars if I canceled this trip and I don't want to miss the family reunion. I feel so conflicted because I want to be here for the work event and I'm letting my team down, but also it's work and I don't want to give up my life for work. What do you feel like is the ethical move here? I think she should just tell them ASAP and take her trip. I think the problem here, like we talked about, I think there was some avoidance probably

in her telling them if these tickets have been booked for months, you know, it would have been the best thing to just say it the second you do. And then it feels like, okay, it feels so much more justifiable to them if she's had these tickets six months in advance than a month before. So I could see why she's in a tough situation because now it's like a month away. Right. Where it's like now it's like you have the other trip planned and now it almost seems like you don't care about it as if you planned it after even though you've already been booked. Right.

I find, yeah, I find the best thing. And I agree with you. she should go to the family trip because like, I think that's going to be, if she looks back on her life, that's going to be something she'll wish that she had been to. And it sounds like that. And I do.

I also wondered, I mean, I don't know, she didn't write in here, if she could kind of be involved, you know, like up until just because some, a lot of times the actual event,

the work isn't on the day of. A lot of it's like leading up to the day of. And I think she could probably do a lot and even working from Japan and doing stuff up until, you know, the day of or even on the day of. like being able to be as available as humanly possible, but I'm actually not physically going to be present on the day because I have this whole reunion. You know, I think that's a big deal. And she seems

like she does too. Her intention there at the bottom, I don't want to give up my life for work, you know, so that seems like that's something she's pretty sure about. Yeah, I agree. And I think that's a fair thing to think. Again, I think it's more about the company acknowledging that you messed up a little bit and that you want to be there. and that you care and that you're going to do everything you need to do. Because that's really like, I think if you think about your career in general, that's kind of what people at a company with you want to feel like they want to feel like you care and that you're there, like whether or not you can do it.

Circumstances are circumstances. Like you can't help. Sometimes things just don't align or that they don't go well. And I think that's a great thing to bring up. I would say, I agree with you. There's like avoidance now that she like knows she's probably like just dreading it and keeps putting it off and then it becomes worse, like the closer you get. So I would just bite the bullet probably won't be as bad as you think.

Tell them, be super apologetic that you didn't tell them earlier. Right. And vulnerable there. I think she could say, if it's a small company especially, I think she can be vulnerable there and say, I've really been avoiding this because I just don't want to let you guys down. And now I found myself in this really difficult situation where it happens to be coinciding. So I think if she's vulnerable and say, I really bought these tickets six months ago,

but I've been, you know, I don't want to let you down. So I've been having a hard time telling you. Right. I agree. And I think the difference between getting, like, mad and being disappointed at a situation is sort of how it's explained to you. And like, again, like you said, like the vulnerability that comes with it when you're telling someone something they don't want to hear.

So I think if you're expressing like regret that you can't be there and that you didn't say something earlier and then you're saying you're offering alternative solutions, like I'll help plan everything up until then, you know, I'm really invest in how. this comes out. Let me know if there's anything extra I can do before my trip that I can take on. I think as long as you're doing that, the other person, like, things happen. Like, no one, I don't think people expect, like, everything to go 100% of their way every time. And like she said, like, this is like a really important thing for her family.

And I think it's okay to say, like, I'm putting that ahead of a job because at the end of the day, it is a job. Right. And I think it's also, I mean, not that it would be bad if it was just like a trip to Hawaii, but I think it's a better look that she's like going back to Japan and like for a family reunion than just like my boyfriend and I are going to, you know, Barbados or whatever, which seems like it's a trip to be done any other week. Right. To say it's my whole family reunion, everyone is going.

And I think I would include some of those details. Your parents, you know, like saved up. And you could even exaggerate my parents saved up for. Right. You know, plan this whole thing. I just don't feel like I can disappoint. them in this realm and it's just such an important event for my family. Right. And one last thought. I hope that this listener hears this soon because I was cringing when she wrote, I still have

four weeks. So I was planning to tell him in the next few weeks. Like this needs to happen. Yeah. Today as soon as possible. Right. The only way to make this worse is to wait until two weeks before the event and then tell him. And it's funny. I feel like people feel like so much dread going into these conversations, but it actually feels so much worse to just have it hanging over your head that you haven't said anything for those weeks. Like those weeks will actually be a lot worse for you, having not said anything and just thinking about when like as someone, I haven't done this specific scenario, obviously, but I've had situations where I've had to tell someone something they didn't want to hear and I put it off and I put it up and I think I'm like doing myself a favor by like not

dealing with it. But it's actually so much worse because I just keep thinking about how I have to do it and how I don't want to do it, that those few weeks or however long I'm delaying it, when if you just say it, it's uncomfortable. And then sometimes it's even really like most of the time, I think it's not as bad as you think it is like the person understands. And they're like, okay, and the conversation goes fine. And then you're done with the conversation and you're like, now I can like not even think about that because I've already take, you know, I've already crossed that off the list and now it's not weighing on me this whole time. 100%. Personal experience.

I remember this was 10 years ago when I was pregnant with Lila, with my first daughter, and I had to tell all my patients. This was like kind of, you know, I was earlier in my career. And I, you know, it's like not even a conversation you have to have once. It's a conversation you have to have like 15 times with each different person and kind of tell them. And it's hard as a therapist to tell your patients that you're going to be leaving. And I didn't want to be abandoning them. and I was really avoiding those conversations, but there's like physical evidence, like you start

growing and showing and I kept kind of putting it off. And then I remember finally just being like, okay, I have to just do this already because it's going to get awkward soon. And it was probably stressful for you to like think about all those weeks you didn't tell them, just think about how you eventually had to tell them. Right. And it was like, I'm supposed to be, you know, like I'm doing therapy. And in the back of my mind, there's like that, you know, I'm not focused because I'm thinking about my news that I have to share with them instead of being completely present and in the moment about what's going on. So it definitely felt much better once I could just, you know, I cleared the air and I had those conversations and kind of handled all that.

I felt like such a relief. So yeah. I can also tell when a therapist doesn't want to have like an annoying conversation. Usually it's about their rates going up. But. And one more. thing. Yeah, the doorknob comment, right? Oh, and by the way, $20 more next time. Thanks. Bye. Yeah. Well, we've been seeing each other for, yeah, it's kind of like, okay. Yeah. So, yeah, it's better to just rip the Band-Aid off, I think, and have that conversation. You'll feel much better. And either way, you'll have it resolved. The unknown, I think, and this is most things in life, just not knowing how something's going to go is almost always much worse than the actual event happening, whatever the thing is that you're afraid of.

Totally. Yeah, I 100% agree with that. But it's like, for some reason, our minds are always like, just avoid it. Just don't do it. I'm like, it'll be fine. Or like, maybe it'll resolve itself before you have to do it, which rarely ever happens. Right. And that's all, again, going back to just like realizing that your body's activated,

you're triggered, you're feeling anxious and there's two ways to make the anxiety go away. One is to like walk through to the other side and the other one is to back up and avoid it. And so the backup and avoid it works well temporarily. But it's not a good long term solution. Right. The one that's going to fix it more long term is walking through to the other side. Right. The overall angst, I feel like, is worse when you avoid doing it.

I think a lot of people see that when they like want to break up with someone. Mm-hmm. And then they take a long time sometimes. Right. Right. Where they're like, I can't do it. It's just like the, and that I feel like that's one of those scenarios where I imagine like the potential actual act of doing it might actually be as bad as you anticipate. Yeah.

Yeah. That's true. You know what I mean? So that's kind of one where I feel like it's hard to sit today and it won't be as bad. Like they'll be fine. They won't care. Like usually they'll care. Or that's one where people will do the thing where they wait until there's a conflict, wait till the other person's already upset and then be like, oh, okay.

And by the way, this isn't working out. Yeah. So that's sometimes a way to avoid, you know, going from calm to not come. Which sucks for the other person because then they probably like put the whole thing on that last interaction, sort of blaming it on the thing they did at that last interaction when really the person wanted to do it. Like for a while. Yeah, that's, I really don't like that way of interacting. I think it's and it leaves the person.

Yeah, like you said, it just leaves the person like rattling around that last day when it really had almost nothing to do with that last day. Totally. I've rattled around many last days. Replaying it and thinking about how I could have done it differently. And it's just funny from the other person's perspective. Again, like it's something they wanted to thought they just had an opening. He was trying to dump you for months. So true. That's very funny.

I mean, you see that. We see that on you up too. So many times like, you know, people who are like going over and over the text conversation about the last thing that they said or the text or the date or the whatever. when it's like it's rarely one and should i not have texted him first and would that have made it you know it's rarely ever that yeah it's just it's an easy way out it is you know if anyone's out there and this is a PSA like really try not to do that it's not good for the other person's mental health on the other side be honest come out with it have the conversation and don't try to you know i guess that's kind

of what gaslighting is in a lot of ways yeah an aspect of it is making it seem like it's because they whatever the thing was that they did on that last day. I agree. I think it's better to like be respectful of, it's more much more respectful of the other person to do it in a way that doesn't leave them reeling about their interactions on a particular moment or day and like actually let them know that it's not about that. Right. And it's good practice for you to be able to confront, you know, uncomfortable emotions and conversations. Agreed. I think we solved this ethical dilemma. Yeah, I hope so. Take the trip. Have a good time in Japan. Yeah. Let us know how this interaction went.

All right, let's play some triggered. You ready? I'm ready. All right. I read the first one. I wanted to submit a scenario for your triggered segment. My best friend is driving me nuts. We often go back and forth sharing TikToks and posts on Instagram, DMs as friends do these

days. And she is always coming back to me with a, I saw this after nearly everything I sent. If you already saw it and it was something we both would like, then why wouldn't you have sent it to me already? She also always has to be correct. already in the know when we talk about celebrity gossip or current events and gets defensive if she doesn't know the subject. Am I being overly sensitive here? I know over text or DM it's hard to interpret the tone, but the behavior does carry over when we hang out in real life too.

Sometimes I just want to blur it out. Why do you think you need to know everything? All right. What do you give it? This is funny. It's funny. I'm like very much in like have these kinds of interactions with people too. So it's such a 22 triggered situation of the moment. I would give it a four. I was thinking four, actually. That was my number too. I've said I saw this to many people who send me things because you're kind of like, and here's the thing.

If I saw it, I don't, and your friend could be like this too and just to play the friend's devil's advocate. I don't like constantly being interacting with people. Like I'm not like texting them all day. I'm not like DMing them back and forth. Like if I'm at work, I don't want to be like, that's why I don't like, I prefer a phone call or an in person meet up. So it's like you're there.

You get the intimacy and then you leave. an all-day texting situation or if I see something funny, sometimes I don't want to send it to you and have a whole conversation about it. I just want to like enjoy it and move on. So yeah, that's something that I didn't think about. Maybe she's she doesn't want this type of sharing relationship. Maybe it's a one-sided thing. And she's like, well, why didn't you send it if you thought I think I thought it would funny? Like maybe she would have brought it up if she saw you and you were talking about something. But like I relate to the friend. Like I see a lot of funny things that I don't send to people because I don't want to have a whole conversation.

I just want to enjoy it for myself and then move on. And so, is she supposed to pretend that she hasn't seen it? Right. Yeah. That I agree. She's not going to pretend. But I think this is a bigger issue for this writer where it's more of like,

I think she thinks this friend really does have an identity that's based in being in the know about all of this type of celebrity gossip or current events that it's like. I think she's being like smug about it. Yes. Okay. And I think I got the feeling that this probably is a way that they interact, but that the friend, I guess this writer's perception is that the friend just wants to be the first one to make her aware. She wants to be like the breaking news person, which I could see is irritating.

That's a very interesting way to think about. I think that there's probably a lot of truth in that too. It seems like it somehow is part of this friend's. sense of self, that she's good at this, that she's into this, that she's like on top of this, that it's, you know, like, and I hope he doesn't take offense this, but I know Jonathan, our brother Jonathan, he's always the first person to tell me when a celebrity dies. Like, he is the one that I get the first text from whatever there is a dead celebrity. You know, I always count on him, but I wonder if that's like in his mind. He's like, I am the newsbreaker

of celebrity deaths. So maybe. I'll get to. a lot of DMs or like jokes from like him or you know or Josh his twin brother it's funny because like they'll send a lot I love them but some and if you're listening I probably should have had a side conversation with you about this I don't think it's that pick of a deal though but sometimes it's like they'll send me a bunch and they're funny and they are the first ones to send it to me but I'm kind of like well I don't know what the right correct response is ever it's like ha ha or like this is really funny it's like you mean like you don't want them to think you don't like you don't like you really might think it's funny, but how can you express that other than racking your brain

to engage in some type of funny banter, which maybe you don't have the energy for. Right. Or just my favorite is like the click hold, you know, or the hot, you have a few options, which I like now. You can click, ha ha, you can click, you know, emphasize. I forget what it's called, but yeah. Sometimes it feels like that's like almost offensive. Like it's not enough of a reaction.

Like, I don't want to offend you by clicking ha ha. But I did think it was pretty funny, but I don't know how else to respond. And I don't know what their expectations are. Maybe they're fine with the ha ha or the liking of the thing. Like I'm just kind of like, I don't want to be rude. I think this is funny. I don't really know what else to say. But I think that's my main issue with almost like modern technology or modern

communication, which is that there's seven million ways to be in contact with someone all throughout the day. Twitter DM, Instagram DM, text. Like, and it's just kind of like. I feel like maybe I would have thrived in a different time period when you had to call someone to speak to them or something. Like I just feel like it's a lot. I like it. You can't always be on.

Do you know what I mean? It kind of makes you feel like or if someone texts you a thought they had, an interesting thought they had during the day. Like, and I actually am usually on my phone because I work a lot on my phone. So I see it. So it's not even that I don't see it. Sometimes I see it. And I'm just like, I don't really feel like. talking or talking about this or talking at all. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm,

interested to hear if anybody out there has that other perspective, because I think we're similar like this. Like, I don't interact in this way too much. And when people interact with me, I don't think I mind it as much as you. Like, I'm cool. I just also don't. I'm not a raging bitch when someone's trying to just say something friendly or nice. Yeah. So like, I don't mind it. But sometimes I'm also like, I don't have the energy to like come up with a witty response or like come back with some kind of interesting banter. So I do just click, ha ha, or literally write L.O.L or ha or whatever. And is that, do you take that as like I'm ignoring you or I'm disinterested because I'm not trying to be that way? So I'm interested to hear how other people on the other side take it when you are the type of person that likes to share these things and then somebody's responding.

Are you looking for more or is it okay when you just? just get the ha-ha. I'm curious about that. How much do you need in the way of like, do you what I mean? Like if that person sent out, if John sent you like the celebrity death thing and you were like,

I already heard about this. Like, would that be annoying to him? Or would he be like, because I mean, I guess the thing, I think the thing with her friend, which is probably the real triggered situation

is that she feels a little stupid. Because she's like, oh, I found this thing. And sometimes I feel that way too. If I send someone something and they're like, oh, I already saw this.

I'm like, all right, I'm just like the idiot who like, is the last to see everything. And I think I, you know what I mean? I think I've, I'm bringing you a funny take when it's actually super, right, already been done.

Totally. My initial thought when I read this, just to get back to it, is, okay, if that's what she needs, if her ego needs to be the first person to know it or she needs to know, be the guru on all things, current events and, you know, celebrity gossip, you could just give it to her and not let it bother you so much. and realize, okay, maybe there's a lot of great things about this friendship. For some reason, her ego needs this little boost, unless it's really important to you also, which I don't think it is.

I think you're just trying to connect with her. Then maybe you just kind of let us slide and realize this is something that's maybe an insecurity of hers or something that she needs a little, you know, pat on the back about. I agree. It's funny because she's like, this is like our thing, but it sounds like you don't enjoy it that much. So maybe like your thing is not this. You just. thing. Right. You know what I mean?

Right. Like it's okay also if you're just, then you just send funny stuff that you see to someone else. That maybe it's like, that's, I usually find it's more fun to send stuff to people who are like out of the loop because then I get to be that person. Right. Who's like entertaining them. So send it to me. I'm pretty out of the loop. Yeah.

Send it to Dr. Naomi. And she will be like, guaranteed you'll, you'll be the first person to show it to her. You will get a hundred percent a ha ha. Love it. All right. Let's do another one. Okay. My boyfriend and I were dating for a little over a year at the time. I was taking a new job that was a 13-hour drive away in a different state. We both agreed to continue the relationship long distance. Leading up to the move, he never offered to drive me down. All my stuff was with movers, so it was just me in the car alone. A vacation with his family a few weeks before the move, his mom offhand in front of me, my boyfriend and the rest of his family said, quote, maybe he will offer to drive you down to your new home. him. Way to go, mom. I like how you said that in such a momish way. Like, how nice. How nice. Yeah. I didn't say anything. I was pretty surprised his mom made the unprovoked

hints so publicly. The moving day came and he didn't drive me down, never called me. And even after 13 hours of driving, I made it to my new apartment without a single call or check in from him. I just love the idea of every hour that goes by. She's looking at her phone just getting angrier and Angrier. Ten hours. Eleven hours. Well, nothing. I was extremely upset and brought it up to him, which he kind of blew it off and thought he did nothing wrong. I felt completely abandoned and unsupported. Should I feel triggered by this? Are my expectations too high? Was it too much to ask him to drive me down to show his support or even make sure I got there safely? I would have done it for him if the roles were reversed. My thought is there's a bigger conversation that needs to happen here. the drive. Yeah. Yeah. I think he might be having second thoughts about the long distance. I think he might be pulling back a little bit. You know, I think anyone in a primary relationship with somebody else, I'm not saying maybe his schedule wouldn't allow for him to drive her. That's one thing. But having her do a 13-hour drive by herself and not calling at all to check in, I think, I don't know,

maybe you disagree, but I think that I wouldn't like that if I was in a serious relationship with somebody. So I think he may, I think if we check back in, And with this writer in another couple months, this may be a different situation. Yeah. I think this is pretty triggering. This would be like very irritating to me. I would give it like an eight that's like upsetting. And I agree.

It's because like, well, I think a lot of the other information helps in this. It's not like, okay, I happen to be doing a 13 hour road trip across like as a vacation. Right. And he didn't or like I needed to bring my car somewhere. It's like she's specifically moving away. in like in a long distance way. And I also think like maybe that's not who he is, but I think that's sort of,

I think what you can bring that up is like we're about to be in a long distance relationship or we are in a long distance relationship. Like that usually needs a lot more effort. Yes, this is not starting off on a good note in terms of staying connected, you know. Yeah. And it hurt my feelings that you didn't check to see that, you know, I was doing okay on this drive or seemed concerned.

And even just like not talking to me all day, just generally speaking for like not speaking the entire day in a relationship where you don't live together or anything seems a little weird generally. Yeah. I guess everyone has their own. They've been dating for a year. It's not like they were dating for like, you know, two or three months before this happened. So, yeah, not speaking all day.

And even kind of saying, hey, you're on this long, boring drive. I want to help you out and keep you company for a little bit of it and just like kind of talk to you and stay connected. So I think he's probably, my feeling is intentionally, I'm not saying he doesn't want to be in the relationship, but I think he's maybe protecting himself or trying to conceptualize the distance in a different way than how you're conceptualizing the distance. You're probably looking for more. And maybe he's saying, look, if we're going to do this, we're going to have to get used to not talking all the time or something. I don't know what's going through his mind, but it doesn't seem like this is. Or in the complete other scenario, he's just not

the kind of guy who checks or cares. And maybe that's not someone who a lot who's a good match for you. Right. You know, I don't think you're crazy for wanting for appreciating that in someone. And if that's just, maybe he's just not a check in kind of guy. But that,

maybe that's not a match for you at all. Totally. Although, you know, again, though, it seems like if I'm digging in here, there might have been a little bit in the way that she brought it up because

she brought it up like, you know, he blew it off and thought he did no wrong. So it's almost like she's, she's looking for him to say he did wrong when I think the real conversation is, what type of connection are you looking for, you know, versus what type of connection? Like, I'm looking for a connection where we don't go all day without speaking or if you know that I'm doing, I'm going to be, like, even if you were alone waiting for a loved one in a

hospital for 12 hours or something, you'd want your loved one to just keep you company in that for 20 minutes of it or just distract you or some, you know, be a little support. I think there's a lack of general support in this endeavor. So I think the conversation isn't, okay, you did a bad thing. Now apologize. That's not going to help anything. I think the conversation has to be deeper than that. Like she said, expectations. Here's my expectations for a relationship. Can you meet me at them or not? It's funny. Mike and I, I watch a lot of true crime. And I, when I was travel for work, I would be like, how long would you wait before you called the cops? Like, how long would I have to not answer? How long?

long. We didn't get to a real fight, but he was like, probably the next morning. I'd be like the next morning. I'm already dead. What do you? Right. Like you text me. Oh my gosh. That's really funny. That is really funny. Next morning. He's like, I'm an alarmist. I'm like, right. Yeah, but where was, where were you all night overnight? I definitely would not wait until the next morning. Mike. Right. You have to call. Call me. I'll call the cops. Yeah. I was so I'm saying. I was like, that's, I was like, that's so rude. Who knows? Who knows? You just let me die in the street.

Hypothetically. Yeah. I was cold. Nothing better for a relationship than hypotheticals set up to trap someone into a bad answer. Okay. Last one. I recently broke up with my boyfriend of a few years. I set up a friend of mine with a friend of his a few months ago and they are still dating.

Despite me not wanting it to, it still hurts me to see them together or hear about how they're doing. they also don't have the most functional relationships so it makes me weirdly jealous that somehow despite their flaws, they're making it work. How should I approach this? How triggered do you think she should be? I mean, look, I think a lot of people,

I've talked to a lot of people in this situation where there's like one couple and then another couple forms from that couple and the original couple breaks up. And it is hard because you're just, the aloneness is hard and then seeing another couple that wouldn't have been together

if it wasn't for you type of thing. What might have been? Right. Exactly. So I, you know, I think this is fairly triggering just because it is. I don't know that, you know, she quote unquote has a right to be jealous or give them any negative vibes. But I think this is, I could put this at like a seven. I, I guess I could agree with maybe a six.

Just because like, yeah, okay. I think it's more like the situation is upsetting, but no one's actually like done anything upsetting. Do you know what I mean? Like it's one of those cases where it's like, no one is at fault. The situation is like unfortunate for her. I found it odd that she felt worse because they were having issues. I would feel like better if they were having like, oh, like I could like, I got out of that. Like this is sort of like, I'm not just sticking it.

And they have issues that are visible enough that you totally outside of their relationships see them. I would be like, okay, like it's not like they have this. They're just sailing into the sunset. Right. Well, it's very, actually, it's an interesting insight into just relationship dynamics and how a lot of times people want to make it work just because it feels like it's a proving of somebody's undying love, that they're willing to be unhappy and miserable in a relationship with you for a long period of time. Right. Right. I love you so much that I'm willing to be miserable with you for a while. So I think it makes sense. I'm glad that she's like maybe by writing in. to us. Hopefully she can have some insight into, and she says, weirdly jealous that despite their flaws, they're making it work. But I think it's good for you to do some work and introspection on

what is love. Does love mean that you just are going to work on it until you're, you know, exhausted and miserable? I mean, especially if you don't have kids, you're not married. I don't know if that's really the best thing. That might just be. Like you're saying, the relief of like, oh, great, I don't have to be in that relationship that feels so difficult and we're always working and, you know, trying to make this thing work that doesn't feel like it's working. Yeah, I could be in anything. I think we should do a whole episode on like breakups and like, you know, I think that particular question of like, is it, is it a better show to like stick it out and work through those

things or some, like, how do you know when the difference is between like, or we should cut our losses. Right. Go do our own thing. Like I think that's such a intense issue. that so many people have of like when they're considering things. Do you know what I mean? Right.

Yeah. It's not like black and white. I think it comes down to kind of what we talked about earlier, which is do you have that intense, immediate pain and discomfort of the first like few weeks, months of a breakup? Or do you have like a low level discomfort, lower, probably not low, but lower level discomfort for like a year or two or five or however long, you just hang on to this because you don't want to tolerate that intense loneliness that comes with a breakup.

So I think here, I hope that this listener can look back at it and kind of think, I'm going to choose, this is mindfulness, I'm going to choose to focus on the relief that I feel of not having to make something work that doesn't feel like it's working. And there's got to be some relief there. Right. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been a breakup at all. Right. kind of like refocus on that. I do think it's very difficult to be happy for someone who has the

exact thing that you want. Yeah. Just generally speak. I think you have to be like a real, a real saint level person to be like that thing that I've been trying for this whole time that you have like so happy for you. So. Yeah. Right. Right. I totally agree. Or at least, you know, again, I always talk about how like life is just waves of emotion, but there might be a lot of waves of jealousy, a lot of waves of self-pity, a lot of waves of negative emotion, and maybe less waves of, I'm happy for you. Smaller waves of I'm happy for you. Yeah, I like that. It's a little bit, it sounds a little better for you as a person, for me, it's a person. You feel like it's a total bullshit. I hate it all. Exactly. But I think we solved a lot of psychological issues today,

and this was a great episode. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morelis Pico, and Rebecca Sousel McHan. Editing by Missileo Perez. Yes, booking by Alley Friedlander. Send your advice emails to Oversharing at Betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches.