Oversharing - How to Maintain Friendships Without Gossiping

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

This week, both Naomi and Jordana share about their recent relaxing getaways. However, Jordana explains how she had a hard time sleeping over the weekend and how she became frustrated when implementing sleep meditation didn’t seem to help. Naomi explains that meditation isn’t a way to manipulate your reality, but a tool to embrace it. This week’s Oversharing email, comes from a listener who wants to know if her partner’s anger management issues should be a marriage deal breaker. Both Jordana and Naomi remind the listener that all “positive” qualities come with equally “negative” qualities. Which ones are you willing to tolerate forever? Next, they read a Betchicist email where a listener’s friend group can’t stop gossiping. Is there a way to resist the temptation to gossip? She worries that if the “exciting” parts of their chats are taken away, their conversations will become stale and boring. They close with a few Triggered scenarios about forgetful in-laws, unsupportive friends, and therapist deal breakers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordan Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. What's up?

How's everything? Happy Monday. I feel rested. Jeff and I went away alone this weekend. Oh, wow. That was really nice little treat. We haven't done that in a long time. Where'd you go?

We went to a tiny little town about an hour and a half away from us called Granbury, Texas. It was just simple. There was a little lake there. There's like a shopping, like a town square that you walk around and restaurants and little shops. It was literally just to get away and have some peace and quiet. But it was a cute little trip. That's really nice. Parents weekend away.

I love it totally it was really nice to just have uninterrupted conversation like so much you know like right we always get interrupted in the middle of trying to talk about something so that it was nice to get to that point where it was like wait I think we're like caught up like I think we're done having right like there's nothing left here to say you know I mean there was like obviously plenty of time but it was nice to even just like be able to sit in silence and like enjoy each other and not have to be going through the to-do list and all the stuff coming up and like all the plant. It was like, we did all that. We had time for all that. And then we just chilled. So it was really nice. That's great. I'm at the phase where we have so much together in this time because there's

no kids or anything where sometimes we're like, okay, I think we already talked about that. Right. Right. Now, you do get to the point where you're like repeating a story or saying something, you know, we've been married for, you know, 13 years. So. Right. You know, you tend to hear some of this stuff over again. But it's just, it's nice to get to that point almost, to have enough time to get totally caught up on all the thoughts and feelings and emotions of everything that's been going on in our life, that then we're just like, okay, now we can just be together. Yeah, definitely helps you feel more connected, I'm sure. Yeah. So that was great. It wasn't, you know, Park City where you were, which looked amazing.

That looked so nice. It was really fun. It was just like a couple days. We did a hike. I did some massages. Just had some nice dinners. It was like a nice little trip. It was just Friday to Sunday, but it was very, very nice.

I had some issues, though. I thought it would be good to maybe for the listeners or for myself. I've been having a lot of trouble sleeping lately. And I've been trying like sleep meditations, but they're not like fully. Do you ever just like try to sleep? And there's no like particular reason in your mind, but you just can't.

That's one of the most frustrating. frustrating things, I think, in existence. Like the feeling of like I just want to be able to sleep. I want to not be up, but I can't figure out how to get over it. Your body just feels like a little activated. Like more or your mind, I guess, is the difference. Maybe your body is even relaxed, but like your mind feels activated. Did you feel like you had random racing thoughts?

Or was it just like more physical? I think it was a little bit of both. But then I would like take myself out of them. But then they would come back. It's like, I'm trying. you try to remove the thought or just like, again, do that. I think we talked about this, like the counting sheep thing or whatever thing. But then it's just kind of like,

if you try to do that for so long, then you're just like annoyed that you're trying so hard. Totally. And then it's not working and you're still up. And then you see the clock like inch up in time. And then you're like that almost, you know what I mean? The idea that the time is passing makes you more frustrated and probably less able to fall asleep than the other way around. Well, did you have stuff that you were having to wake up for?

you were on vacation, so you could just like sleep if you wanted to? I was, but then eventually it was like, I don't know, it was like 8, 9 a.m. And I'm like, well, I'm not, it doesn't seem like it's happening for me. Oh my gosh. That's really, that's a lot. That's like really late. Which is almost worse because then you're like, I didn't even need to be up. But now I'm like, it's too late. What am I going to have a full night's sleep at 8 a.m? I'm going to sleep till like 2 o'clock in the afternoon now. Right. That is very frustrating. I, you know, I think, and again, this is the hardest part of it. It's almost sort of, we've touched on this before, the idea of like acceptance, like accepting where you are, like not resisting life in general. And I think sometimes for sleep,

and this is, like I say, it's hard to do if you have like an 8 a.m. meeting where you're like, I'm going to be exhausted. I'm going to be like a zombie in the morning. And this is horrible. Like, I need to get some sleep. So the first thing you can do is, and I tell this to my kids sometimes when they can't sleep, you know, like, Lilo would be like, I'm going to, because she's very conscientious. And she's like, I'm going to, I'm not going to be able to pay attention to school tomorrow. I'm going to be so tired. Like, I can't get to sleep and I'm going to be exhausted. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm just like, look, and this is the truth of it. The worst thing is going to be like the 10 minutes that it takes you to like, let's say you did have an 8 o'clock meeting. To pull yourself out of bed, you're going to, you're going to feel like nauseous and horrible and it's going to be the worst thing. But like, once you're up and you're moving and you're moving. you're at the meeting, if it's an important meeting, you're not going to be like sleeping in the meeting. Like, you're going to be fine. And even, you know, like, there's almost this buildup in

your head of how horrible the next day is going to be if you don't get sleep. Which makes it worse. Right. Because you have that 10 minutes where it really is pretty horrible. Like, if you felt the way you've felt when you're first pulling yourself out of bed, if you finally get to sleep or whatever it is, or throughout the day, maybe you have a moment where you're like extremely tired. Like, that one terrible moment is not worth all the power that you give it throughout the night when you're dreading that moment. It's almost like, if you could just accept that you're not sleeping, or I say to her, okay, whenever you fall asleep, you'll fall asleep. And if in the morning, you're a little tired, like eventually you're going to get that second wind and you're going to get

through it. We create this monster of what the next day is going to look like if we don't fall asleep, I think is a big part of it. So instead of doing that, just kind of doing, I know you said you try meditation, but it's almost like, I'm doing this meditation to fall sleep as opposed to I'm going to do this meditation to like enjoy this, actually enjoy this moment of like lying quietly in my cozy bed. You know, I'm on vacation or if your partner's next to you or they're not, whatever it is, just enjoying this moment of relaxing in a comfortable space with a comfortable pillow and just enjoying it as if that was the vacation. right, as if like you were there to, if someone said, okay, I'm going to bring you into this room, this is the activity for today. We're going to lie in this bed, awake, and enjoy the sounds of the room and the texture of the sheets. And maybe you can play some music and just lie there and

listen to the music and just make it into more of like, I'm just going to relax into this moment and enjoy this quiet moment instead of needing it to be different than what it is, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, I see what you're saying. I mean, except, yeah, not the non-manipulation, just accepting where you're at thing is so much easier instead. I don't know. Right. Yeah. If you can calm your body, that helps, right?

If you can just get your body to calm down and just kind of being like, look, I'm just lying here now. Like, I don't even need to fall asleep. Right. You know, I'm just going to lie here. And the worst case scenario, I'm like a little groggy in the morning. Like, is that worth all the dread and power that I'm giving it right now? Yeah. You know, I guess, secretly, the idea.

is that you calm down enough and enjoy it enough and get out of your head enough that you can fall asleep. But usually like I'll say to Lila when she gets, you know, upset about not being up sleep. I'm like, you've never in your life. And I'll like pull out my calculator and look at how many days, how many nights of sleep she's ever had. And I'll say, you've never not slept and fallen asleep at all ever any night. So tonight's not going to be the first night that that's going to happen. I mean, for you, if you were really up at nine o'clock in the morning, that's like, well, it's kind of like, I don't know, like, you're in and out, your eyes are closed, you're not fully sure. I bet you're not even sure if you sleep.

Part of it. Maybe. I don't know. It's just like it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, I guess, in that, in that way, too. Totally. Totally. But I think when you can't sleep, part of it is just like accepting that I'm not sleeping and maybe trying, like, sometimes I'll think of the analogy. Like, remember that scene in Forrest Gump, you saw Forrest Gump, right?

Yes, yes. Where the two, the soldiers are like, sleeping. sleeping in the rain, like leaning up with their backs against each other. Like, they're both like trying to sleep. And it's like this muddy battlefield in Vietnam with the rain falling down. And I'm like, if they got into your bed in that moment and they switched places with you, they would just be enjoying like the air conditioning and being clean and nice fresh sheets and just kind of putting it into perspective, like how beautiful your sleeping arrangements are.

But that almost makes it more annoying that you can't sleep. It's like I'm fully set, you know what I'm not even being grateful for this. Right. Or it's no, or it's just like there's no reason I shouldn't be able to sleep. Like I have, you know what I mean? I'm in a comfortable room. I have alone. I have like the darkness and the whatever that of it is.

That's almost like, okay, I've set it up. I've done everything right. I'm in the exact right place. Now it's like I'm just lying in this comfortable bed unable to get there. Totally. No, I get it, but not even saying like sleep, but just like, I'm just going to lie here and enjoy this. Right. Breathe.

There's nothing really bad. It's like it actually is a microcosm for mindfulness in general. Like there's nothing bad going on except for your expectation of what should be different in that moment. Yeah. Or your fear of what is going to happen if something's not different. Yeah. That's definitely the part that's tough to get over. But you're right.

There's nothing in your head that's actually, there's nothing in. the actual moment that's actually terrible. Right. It's your just projections of the future and your projections of like what it should be like and why it should be different than it is. But it's actually a perfect, you know, microcosm for a lot of the stuff we talk about, which is like, okay, this moment isn't bad. Why do I need it to be different?

I don't really need it to be different. That's my tip from a distance. But I will say that when you can't sleep, it is difficult to get out of that rut. So I do validate that feeling, especially if it feels like it's literal. all night till 9 o'clock in the morning. That's a long time to be lying mindfully in one spot. Right. Yeah.

You know, so I could definitely see that. Yeah, it's just frustrating. But I guess this two shall pass, as they say. Yeah. Was it last night that you couldn't sleep? Are you feeling tired today? No. Last night I took a Unisom because I got back to my bed.

And I was just like not chancing it. Do you know what that is? Unison. It's like a... Yeah. Yeah. It's like a Tylenol PM minus the Tylenol. Basically.

Yeah. That's my, I guess. I did two nights of the, I'm going to mindfully let it happen. And then I was like, forget it. I like, I'm going to. I need to sleep. Yeah. All right.

Hopefully you reset yourself. You'll be back on a good cycle. I hope so. It was a great night's sleep with that. But then I'm now judging myself for taking it. But like, what can you do? You need to reset. I wonder if there's like an altitude issue.

Are you feeling like unwell? That could have been it. It might have been like the breathing is harder, I think, up there. So that might have been part of it. plus the time difference. Part of me is like, that sounds like nice, fresh, beautiful mountain air. And like that, that would be like, it's nicer in the day. But it is, it is harder to breathe up there, I think, because.

Yeah, maybe that was part of it. Maybe that's part of it. A little drinking probably doesn't help. You know, but yesterday was good. I wonder if I could have done it without that. I just like wasn't in the mood to, to see. Right. I wasn't in an experimental mood.

Right. You're like, I'm not taking my cold shower today. I am just going to take. my nice warm shower and relax into sleep. Exactly. But I was there with Sammy, Betch's co-founder and oversharing a listener, and she said she had been trying your shower trick and was really helping her. Did she like it?

She's doing it a lot. Yeah, she likes it a lot. Oh, that's amazing. I'm so happy. That's great. I'm not going to ask you about yours because I know you had a rough weekend of sleep. Thank you. I was thinking while I was there.

I was like, I could do this here. got a nice hotel shower and then I was like, forget it. Forget it. Yeah. We'll check back in next week. I'll give you another week. Try it again. But this time, so I texted you over the weekend or last week and gave you a more specific

assignment, which was make the water colder than what's comfortable and take 10 deep breaths. So it makes it a little bit more like specific on what I'm asking you to do is stay in there for 10 deep breaths, breathe into the discomfort and see if you can just tolerate that. as an exercise and like relaxing into discomfort. So I'll give you another week to try it. We'll check back in next time. Maybe I'll try it this week. I hope so. Let's get into some emails. Okay. I liked a bunch of these. These were good. Should I read the first one? Yes. Hi, I love the show so much. Thank you for all that you do. I'm writing in with a relationship issue I've been having. I've been together with my boyfriend for a little over a year and we are both 30. And things are very serious. We've been talking a lot about moving in

together soon and getting married in a few years. There's so many aspects of him that I love very much. He makes me feel loved every day. There's never a day where he doesn't tell me how much he loves me or how he thinks I am. We have a lot of fun together. He makes me laugh. He's secure and stable and he's very emotionally intelligent. From the beginning of our relationship, we had no problems telling each other everything and having deep conversations, which I love. That sounds great. Now here's the problem. He has a bit of a temper. He knows this and he's gone to a lot of therapy. He knows this and he's gone to a lot of therapy to make it better. He's told me in the past it was significantly worse and he's proud of how far he's come. Well, I didn't know this past person so I can only take what I'm

experiencing. From what I can see, he gets very easily overwhelmed in situations that I don't see as necessarily overwhelming. And when he feels overwhelmed, he has a tendency to get sensitive and somewhat angry. It's not that he calls me names or yells loudly, but he turns into a totally different person than when he's in a good mood. He'll mumble swear words, get really agitated, and get visibly irritated by anything I'm doing, whether I'm trying to help or just trying to move on. I really hate these moments, and I would even say I hate him in these moments. It makes me worry what it will be like when we have kids and every day is stressful and overwhelming for him, as is the nature of kids. Will I feel like I'm parenting alone or parenting

him as well as my kids? I'm nervous to have kids in general, and it worries me that I'll feel even more stressed while dealing with this with his up and down and emotions. I know that no partner is perfect, but sometimes I wonder if this is too big of an issue for me to just. just accept. He does plenty of smaller things that bother me like any spouse would do. Sometimes he talks too much about himself. He's messier than me, et cetera. But those things feel much more easily acceptable to me. When he's in a good mood, he is truly my favorite person on the planet, but when he is in, his temper spikes my anxiety. I'm a very anxious person and very sensitive to the emotions of others around me, and I can't help but wonder if maybe someone like me should be

with someone more even killed or slow to anger. Thanks. What do you think? This is a great question. And it's interesting on a few levels. First of all, I think she needs to figure out if he's continuously working on his anger or if he's sort of like, I've worked on it. I'm done working on it.

And this is as good as it's going to get. Right? Because that's very different. You know, I see therapy and anger management and mindfulness and all the stuff that we talk about in terms of making changes and self-care as ongoing. You know, it's not something, I always say it's the same thing as like exercise. You can't be like, okay, I exercise for the last five years. Right.

And now I'm done. Now I'm done. Yes. And it doesn't work like that. Yeah. And it's the same thing for all of these emotional issues that come up. It has to be something that he's willing to say this is going to be part of my daily routine, is doing some type of.

of work on my anger management, whether it's, I mean, I obviously would recommend a daily meditation practice. I think that would significantly decrease his moodiness and anger episodes and just make him more mindful of what's happening. So I would say a big piece for her to decide if he's unwilling or he's like, this is as good as it's going to get. I agree. She should be concerned because life is going to get harder and there's going to be, if they have kids, little people around that are a lot of times not within your control, their moods, their behaviors. And so if he has trouble being overwhelmed, I do think this is going to be an issue. But I also think that it sounds really great the rest of the relationship, really, really great. They talk to each other.

From the way she describes it, yeah. Yeah, it sounds really great that I wouldn't throw the whole thing away as long as he's willing to make a constant practice out of working on this and be aware of how, you know, badly it affects her. Yeah. I think it comes to, I agree with everything you just said. I think that's a very accurate assessment of the situation and like what his view about it is and how he reacts when she expresses this concern to him. I think that's a very fair concern to have about the future and about the way that they

deal with that. I mean, she probably would have to accept that he's never going to be a super even killed guy when he's in a bad mood. Like, I believe like there's obviously a spectrum of behaviors. she's more to one side than she wants him to be. She could probably get him more towards the middle. Right. But if you're looking for someone who's never going to get irritated or mad,

it's probably not this guy. Right. But if she has some tolerance for that, it's just she needs it. She gets in her head could also think, like, what would be acceptable to me? Even if it isn't my ideal perfect thing. And then like, can he get to that point? Like this part, this part is unacceptable to me. The way he reacts now is unacceptable.

Somewhere along the spectrum, there's going to be. be a point where it's going to be good enough for her expectations. And then I think probably having a very specific sense of working towards that. And then the other thing is like, I agree. She said she like every other aspect is great. And she seems to really like love him. And, you know, he's, it's interesting because she says he tells me he loves me every day. He seems like a passionate person. Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Sometimes you can't, they go together. Yeah. Totally. And I mean, I have, it's funny, I have like this in the almost opposite way, with Mike, is my husband, who I often feel like is not passionate enough. But one thing I love

about him, he's very go with the flow. He's not easily irritated. He barely gets very upset or mad or has like of his mood overtaking overtaking him. And so I've complained to my therapist that I don't think he's passionate enough. Right. So it's kind of, you know, every great quality usually comes with its own opposite, or not opposite, I guess, similar, like, irritating aspect of that same great personality trait. Right. And I remember saying, I remember my therapist saying to me, like, yeah, like, you could, of course you could find someone who's more passionate, who writes you love notes every day, who says, you know, what I mean, is, is showering you with compliments and affection. But they might not have that other thing. Yes. Or that other, you know, that they might,

again, be more easily irritable or upset or they might have this other quality that goes along with that. And so it's really just about like your tolerance for what their bad quality is. Totally. I agree 100%. I do think that there's passion on both ends of this. And you can try to get his anger and irritability level to a place where you feel like it's acceptable. But the one thing, and I agree with everything you said, I would not marry someone that still has, you know, major changes. that you'd like them to make because then you're setting yourself up for, you know, just this challenge in the relationship where you're not accepting the person for who they are. I think you do need to make it clear that this is something that's upsetting and see if he's able to make the changes that

you need. But I think it's asking for trouble when you're pretending to accept something that you really don't accept before you get married. Because that probably only gets more annoying. If longer you're with someone, if it's, if it's, if you're with someone, if it's, if you're you have the seeds of it in there. But I think that's probably something that someone can work on if they really want to and it can easily see improvements if they see someone and are actively trying, I would imagine. Right. Especially if he, you know, I mean, ideally he does it for himself, but if he realizes that this is going to make his life better and his relationship better and it's a deal breaker for her, I think he could probably do it. And like I always say, it's really not,

a lot of this stuff has, it doesn't, I mean, I say it's simple, but it is pretty powerful. If you take 10 minutes a day to be mindful and meditate and just be aware of your mind and body and your emotions, it will make all the difference in the world. I mean, people spend an hour a day exercising. So you can spend 10 minutes a day. And that's really, I think, what it would take for him to become more aware of how he's reacting to things. And I think both of them will see a huge difference. So yeah, I agree with that. I do think that, you know, she's going to get the passion, which is great, but she's going to get it on both sides. You know, the other hard part about this, and some listeners might say, like, run, get out of there, you know, like if he has anger issues

now, it's only going to get worse. But I think sometimes anger is less socially acceptable than, say, like anxiety or even depression, you know, like when someone has trouble, managing their anger, obviously because it can be dangerous and it's affecting other people, but there's more likely this thing of like, I'm out. Versus if we were getting this email from someone who said, well, my boyfriend is very anxious. And like a lot of times he doesn't want to go to social situations or he's, you know, just quiet and withdrawn or worried about things or neurotic. It's almost like that's a little bit more of an acceptable, you know.

Socially acceptable, yeah. socially acceptable problem to be working on than anger, which I get because anger can hurt other people. But it's interesting. And I do think if he's, she says he's emotionally intelligent. So if he's willing to work on this, I think it would be worth a shot. I agree. I think you're right. And she can assess, again, what that, what success or an acceptable level of this negative quality she's willing to, to take and then see if they can get there before, like you said, making any major commitments. Right. to each other.

Just to make that a little bit more specific for her. And we talked about this once before. Like sometimes if someone has these negative behaviors, you can like write down a note of how often it's happening. Sometimes it's hard. You get lost. You don't know if you're overreacting. Did this really just recently happen or not?

You know, make a note in a calendar or something like, okay, he got into one of these moods on this date. And then you can see, okay, he really hasn't done this in like three months. And maybe him like being in a really, bad mood every three months feels okay. If he was in a really bad mood today and he was in a really bad mood like three days ago, maybe that to her feels like I can't live with that. So sometimes it helps to just be able to see it out in front of you of like how often this is really happening

versus how often it feels like it's happening. I mean, look, you have to trust your gut. If it doesn't feel good and it feels like it's too much, then it is too much. So maybe even once every three months is too much. But sometimes it's helpful to have like an objective data points. Data points of like how often this is really happening. Yeah, I agree with that. Keep a little, little journal recording his, check the bottle. Dollar in the swear jar. Right. You know, it sounds a little sort of like sneaky and manipulative or whatever, but I think it's more just for her to kind of realize. And maybe she'll even realize, okay, this is happening like every three days. This is not okay, you know.

Yeah. It's another way of being mindful of something is writing it down. I think that's fair. Yeah. Should we do another one? Yeah, do you want to read the next betchesist email? Yeah, let's do a betcha cyst. Okay.

Dear Jordana and Dr. Bernstein, I'm a big fan of everything Betches and have especially been enjoying the oversharing podcast. I was hoping you could provide some advice about an ongoing situation I've been having with my friend group. My group of closest friends consists of four other girls I met in college. we're now in our late 20s. We were all roommates throughout college and have remained close ever since, despite all moving to different states after graduation. Because of our geographic distance, we all stay in touch through our group chat, occasional Zoom calls and individual phone calls.

Recently, I've been struggling with the direction that these catch-up phone calls have been going. It seems like no matter which friend I'm speaking with, the conversation goes something like this. We briefly catch up on each other's lives, career, relationships, family, etc. And then somehow, the conversation always turns into gossiping about another girl in the group. This quote-unquote gossip isn't ever anything truly malicious, usually just commentary on that person's relationship, wedding plans, critiquing something they may have made in the group chat, etc. The conversation always ends with something like, but we love so-and-so. I hate to talk bad about her. Shamefully, I used to live for the gossip, but as time has gone on, I find myself feeling really bad about myself at the end of these conversations. I genuinely love each one of these girls and absolutely hate the idea of any one of them finding out that they were being gossiped about. I find myself wondering why the conversation seems to always go down that road. Part of me feels like since we rarely have spent in-time, in-person time together in the year since graduation, we really only get together as a group

for big events like weddings and bachelorette parties. Aside from reminiscing about the past, we have run out of things to talk about. So my question is, how can I resist the temptation to gossip about my friends and how can I put a stop to it if someone else starts? How can I keep my relationships with my friends close, both as a group and individually, when we don't really have opportunities for shared experiences? We've tried to plan a girls trip several times, but life always seems to get in the way. I ultimately just want my interactions with my friends to be more positive. I worry that if the quote unquote exciting parts of our chats are taken away,

our conversations will become stale and boring. I would appreciate any advice or input you have sincerely can't stop gossiping about my friends. This is an interesting one. I've definitely felt relatability there. Totally. I think gossiping, part of it feels very natural. Yeah. You know, I read something like a social evolutionary psychologist that say that gossiping is almost like a leftover form of social interactions that have. help to keep social order. So almost instead of, if somebody's like going out of line,

doing something that's unacceptable to the group, it's a less aggressive way of getting them to step in line than addressing them directly. So like you gossip, then they see looks, they see that everyone's talking about them, they check themselves, they're more aware of their behavior, and then they kind of step in line

and the social order is maintained. Unfortunately, we don't need that. aspect. Yes, it's sort of, I mean, I think it had a functional aspect. I don't think we really need that anymore in, in our society today, but it's almost, well, yes and no. If someone's acting truly, like, heinously, I think it's probably helpful for them to feel some sort of social repercussion of that. Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess that is true. I mean, I think what they're talking about here is not that. I think it's just like, but I think there's like this leftover evolutionary, urge, one, like I said, to kind of keep social order and two, there's like a bonding thing that happens with it where you feel like kind of closer to someone when you can have these shared emotions about something that's not the two of you. Like it's when it's shared emotions about the two of you, it sometimes can feel either like too intense or too vulnerable or too, like maybe there's a chance for conflict. But when you can have shared.

emotions about a third party, it feels sort of like we're connecting, we're having these shared experiences, but it's very non-threatening because it's about somebody else who's not here. Totally. And sometimes, I mean, like, you could do that about anyone. Sometimes it's like you're gossiping about like the latest real housewives episode and which character on that was, was acting crazy. And that seems almost like less rude because you don't know the people. Like, If you're gossiping about celebrity tabloid stuff, like that seems more socially acceptable because they don't, I guess, think they're your friend. Right.

I think, I mean, in some ways, it's perfectly designed to, like, be an outlet for that urge to gossip without hurting anybody because the people that are on those shows are putting, it's almost like they're doing this public service of putting themselves out there for the world so everybody can get all their gossip urges out on them. Like, they know what they're getting themselves into. It's almost like they're asking for. it. So I think that's a better way of doing it than doing it with this friend group where nobody wants to be spoken about, especially negatively behind their back.

Totally. And I think there are some instances where it can be helpful if the person is a mutual friend and gets what the other person is like, especially if let's say you have a negative interaction with someone. I think gossiping about like talking shit essentially about like someone's wedding or like something like something in their life that's going on. Like that feels a lot more rude than like, um, this person said this thing to me, which made me like, and or this person did this thing or was acting this way. And sometimes in your own head, you're like, was that messed up? Should I feel like insulted or like, or I felt like, you feel a little weird about it. And then sometimes you run it by the other person to sort of

gauge whether or not you actually feel like you should be like that is validated. Right. I think it's a slippery slope. I agree. I agree. Yeah. But I think if you did it with like real introspection and like a heart towards like introspection and awareness and like to better your relationship with that person, maybe that would be okay. But I think a lot of times it's just you're looking for someplace to vent. You're looking for someone to validate you. And it could very quickly turn into a little bit of like a shit talking session. So I think if you did that, I think if you're going to do it, you have to do it very mindfully and intentionally. Otherwise, it ends up being like this. I could see why it's not feeling good to her.

And I give her a lot of credit. I like this writer. She's writing in about something that's sort of altruistic, you know, like most people write in about their like immediate personal problems. So I love the fact that she asked this because she's looking outside of herself, trying to be a better person, trying to almost see how she can inject. some positivity into her friendship group. I get how that could happen, especially because they are all long distance. So they're not having the excitement of like, we went out last night together and let's

recap the night. And who did you, you know, who were you crushing on and who, you know, what happened? They don't have that excitement of being in person together. So I do think this is happening, probably exactly as she said, from a lack of excitement in the conversation. So one thing I can recommend is see if there's an opportunity for a little bit more vulnerability and depth here in the conversations. You know, like a lot of times you don't, like I feel like maybe there's a block here and they just like skip through. Like when they're doing the recap, they're just doing like the logistical recap.

I wonder if they were go a little bit deeper into how they feel about career, how they feel about their relationships, like how they feel about family. versus just like, okay, you know, here's the details of the story of what happened. That might provide a little bit more excitement in the conversations because they're getting a little bit deeper. So I think if you're going to have these long distance friendships, it's hard. If you're not digging deep and you're not being in person together, I could see why the gossip is a, you know, a way that makes them feel like this is fun and exciting and kind of motivation to keep it going. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that's, I mean, if you could try to focus on those things,

or being more vulnerable, which again, is I get as hard to do on the phone. And she's saying it's hard to get everyone together for these other trips. But you could also do that on a lower level. It doesn't have to be like everyone in the group goes on these trips or does these things. Like plan something with one or two friends and then, you know, open it up to the group. But if not, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Right. Exactly. Yeah, I've had that same struggle with getting together with, you know, almost all of my friends

are long distance at this point. So sometimes you have to say, whoever can make it, great, let's do it. If you can't, you know, catch the next one kind of thing. Right. I totally agree with that. And I think if like I understand the need to kind of like go there talk about things, it seems like it's adding excitement into a conversation that feels like otherwise, especially if you're not getting intimate, kind of like a little boring.

Right. Where it's like, I don't know if I, if you're giving a surface level update on your, on your career, I could see why that would be like not that interesting for that. that long or on just like the recapness of it. But I also think if there's like, and I do think that women or my, I'll speak for myself, I, you know, you get a little rush of like excitement or drama from hearing some, you know, someone's opinion that has a little bit more color on someone else's whatever they're doing.

And it does feel like a way to relate to someone. And it does feel like a way to get some excitement into a. conversation. So I totally get that. I think also like what I said in the beginning, if you could get that from a shared experience of someone that you both don't know, like this doesn't really have to do with you. Like a celebrity kind of thing. Like a celebrity or an influencer or someone sort of like that doesn't feel it doesn't because I do think that it can lead to you a lack of trust too because you're like, okay, we're talking about this other person, then people might be talking about me. Totally. I'm sure that they are talking about this.

email her because everyone's talking about everyone. So like if you think about it that way, you know, that doesn't feel good. So yeah. That doesn't feel good. And it's like there's a harmless aspect and there's a difference between talking shit about someone, again, who's placed themselves in the public sphere to sort of be analyzed. And that's part of the job or that's part of the thing. Or again, they don't even know you.

So it's like, I'm sure, you know, there's probably a million people who have thoughts on me that I don't, or not a million. I'm not, whatever. There's probably many people who have thoughts on me. And that's really none of my business. Right. But it is more your business when it's like your actual friends or someone that you're acting like you trust and you love and then there feels like more of a betrayal. So I think if you have that urge to spice up the conversation by, you know, having a hot take on something. Totally. Maybe try to keep it to people neither of you are actually like friends with. Right. Or maybe they can all like watch, you know, a show that they're all watching at the same time, that they can like,

said, if they all watch real housewives or The Bachelor or whatever they want, and then they can all kind of bond on this, you know, gossiping about other people. I agree. That might be a better outlet for it. But I love the fact that she's being aware of it. I don't think it's good. When someone talks to me poorly about somebody else that we both know, I just immediately think they're probably doing the same thing about me to another person. So I personally don't like it. I'm glad that she's trying to change it. And some actionable steps, I think you can just make it a little bit, give signals that you're not that into it. You can just change the topic if it comes up, or you can even defend the person. Nobody wants to, it's not that much fun to get into a

shit-talking person with someone who's, like, defending the person. That's definitely true. Takes the steam out of it a little bit. Right. So you can do a little bit of that, which is just going to make it less fun for them and they're probably not going to do it as much. or you can even just say, I'd rather not talk about her right now or something like that that just gives off this signal that you're not that into it. Maybe they'll pick up the vibe,

especially if you try to inject something like, oh, why don't we, there's a new season of X, Y, or Z coming out. Why don't we all watch it? So we have like something fun to talk about. Right. And if in the case where someone's actually really annoyed or riled up about someone and something's doing,

you can let them just like vent. Yes. And say it without contributing to it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, oh, I can see why that might be frustrating. Maybe you should tell her that. Like, there are construct.

There are ways I do think there's outlets for this where it can be constructive if there's an actual issue and it's not talking shit for the sake of talking shit. Right. If you're working towards something that's going to make the relationship better. And I do think there's a difference between just listening and participating. So I think you can listen and say, like you said, oh, that, you know, just let them vent it out. but then you're saying, oh my gosh, I know she did the same thing to me the other day. And like, I can't stand.

You know, that's very different than, yeah, that sounds really hurtful. Or maybe you should talk to her. I think you should talk to her about that or something that implies like, I'm not going to really just engage in total gossip here, but I am here for you. And that's another mindfulness thing to be able to like take yourself out of that conversation and think about like what you actually want to say or do you actually want to be doing this or are you just doing it because it's comfortable. and the other person, and again, it's like, feels, makes the person feel good for you to, like, dig in deeper with them or not. I think, like you said, it's a great mindful way to look at the conversation she's having. I totally get it. I would say, this is a vice of mine. Yeah, well, look, you're making it relatable, and I think it's advice for a lot of people.

I think a lot of people do this, but that's why I love this question, because it's really not great. It's not, it's not a great way to handle yourself. You know, I always just think if the person was in the room right now would I be saying this? You know, like, I saw some meme or something the other day that was like, when you're talking shit so hard that you just pick up your phone just to check and make sure that it hasn't accidentally called the person that you're talking about. Yeah. You know, it's like this panicked feeling of like, if this person heard this, it would be the end

of this relationship. Right. You haven't sent them the screenshot of the screenshot that you. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, it's relatable. I think a lot of people. And I think it's an indicator, big picture.

I think it's an indicator that maybe there's some vulnerability lacking in the relationship, that you're not really talking and, like, having conversations about what you're really thinking and feeling. So that's what makes it feel boring. Yeah, I can agree with that. Okay. Well, let us know how that goes. Any of those tips.

Should we play some games? Yeah, let's do triggered. Okay. Hi, Duran and Dr. Naomi, huge fan of the podcast. this has quickly become my favorite, although I'm an avid listener of all the Betches podcasts. I'm actually doing a complete career change in going back to school to get a master's in counseling to align better with my interests. And these are the exact kind of conversations that I crave.

Oh, great. I have a triggered scenario for you. My brother-in-law didn't know my last name. I got married a few weeks ago. In about a month before the wedding, my husband and I visited my husband's sister and her husband. At the time, my future sister and brother-in-law. They live about two hours from us and we visited. for the weekend. We were talking about me taking my husband's last name when my brother-in-law said,

wait, what's your last name? I don't even know what it is now. In the moment, I just laughed and told him what it was, but deep down, I thought to myself, what the fuck? My husband and I had been together for over three years before we got married, so it's not like we had just met each other. Also, our wedding invitation with my last name on it had been hanging on their fridge when we got there, so it presumably had been displayed for a few months. I know the anger slash disappointment I felt probably had more to do with the fact that I don't feel that my sister and brother-in-law do a great job at trying to get to know me better. But I wish he had kept the comment to himself rather than admitting he didn't know my last name.

I know I would be way too embarrassed to admit I didn't know someone's last name and look it up or ask someone else what it was later like a normal person. Should I be triggered? No name betch. All right. This is interesting. First of all, it's an interesting relationship because I don't know what the truth is on this, but it's not really her brother-in-law.

It's her sister-in-law's husband. Yeah. I guess that's technically your brother-in-law, but like, I think in the technical sense, but like the person, like if those people got divorced, the woman would still be your sister-in-law. And the brother-in-law, I feel like not really. It would be like not a thing. Yeah.

The in-law thing, there's like so many different, you can say, it's an annoying word because it's like you could say brother-in-law and it could mean your sister's husband or it could me and your spouse's sister. Yeah. Sister. So it's an annoying word. All right. Anyway, that's besides the point.

I think I would put this pretty low. I think that what's bothering her is what she mentioned that, you know, maybe that they're not really interested in getting to know her or, you know, they're not interested in kind of like learning who she is or maybe spending time with her. I think it's more the deeper issue of that. And maybe because we have such an enormous family that, like, You know, there's like a lot of people. I can see that happening. Names. I can see that happening, you know. So I would put this pretty low. I get that maybe she wants to feel more connected. But it's, it's actually her sister-in-law's husband, who probably has his own side of the family. And it wasn't like he forgot her first name. He forgot her former last name. So I don't know. Right. And also, I think if you're not friends on social media or if like, I think social media almost like ingrained some.

one's last name in your mind. Exactly. And if you guys aren't, like, connected on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, I could see why he'd be like not thinking active. Maybe he heard it once and then wasn't thinking active. You know what I mean? It could have, I don't think that'd be something that'd be ingrained in someone's mind unless they had seen it so frequently. Totally. I agree. Whether you're connected or not on social media, I think would make a difference because that's where you're going to see the last name. The invitation on the fridge, I almost disregard that. It's like he's reading the invitation on the fridge. It's just sitting. on the fridge. And again, I think it's like because you don't really, she's saying she doesn't

really know him that well. And because you don't really know him that well, you also don't know like if that's just like he's just not someone who's like detail oriented. Super deli detail oriented or like that. You know, things kind of just like past, like they're maybe a little aloof. That could also just be like his personality. It could seem really personal like it's just about you. But maybe that's just kind of what is he's a little clueless. Right. I agree. The one part that I would say is the most triggering is that he didn't have to say, oh, right, what was your last name again? Like, that's almost saying, like, I don't really think about you that much. I didn't really think about you before. I have no idea who you are. I think it says all the things that she's concerned

that it says. So I think I agree the fact that he said that out loud instead of just realizing, oh, I wonder what her other last name was and like asking his wife. Yeah. I think that would have been the more socially acceptable way to handle this. Yeah, that he didn't seem to care at all, that he, he wasn't, he didn't have any shame in asking the question is a, is a tougher one. I agree with that. More so than the fact that he didn't actually know. So what do you give this? I'd give it a five, because I could see why that would, it would be like a little insulting. It'd be like, oh, you actually don't really give a shit about like, there's, again, there's ways of like kind of inferring that, but this is very blatant. Right. Yeah, you gave me no thought. Yeah. You don't even care if I think that you've given me any thought. Totally. That's the worst part. All right. Should we do another one? Yeah. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, I have a two-for-one triggered scenario for you. Backstory. I have a serious chronic illness that has left me unable to carry a pregnancy due to medications I depend on to stay alive. A guy who I was recently dating for a couple of months was often hot and cold with me. When I confronted him about this and told him that his behavior was a turnoff to me, he insisted that I was imagining things and that he'd been just been, just been, really busy recently. However, the next day he called me to tell me that he had been intentionally

hot and cold with me since one of our first few dates when he'd asked if I wanted kids and I shared that while I do want to have a family, I would have to adopt kids due to my infertility. He apparently had been hot and cold since I had shared this because he really liked me and wanted to keep seeing me, but he would never seriously date someone who couldn't have kids. I told him how offensive and hurtful this was to me and he refused to apologize, saying that he's allowed to be honest and express his needs in a relationship. When I told my friends about this, many of them agreed with him, saying that it's fair enough to break up with someone over having different goals.

One coworker even went so far as to say she would also never seriously date someone who couldn't have children. I feel like both this guy and these unsupported friends are being extremely hurtful, especially since they all know that I want to have kids, I just physically can and that I've already dealt with a lot of traumatic discrimination through my lifetime due to my disability. I do understand that honesty is important and I'm happy to have figured this out about this guy sooner rather than later, but it's been months since this happened and I'm still hurt by this and worried that I won't be able to find someone because of something that I have literally no control over.

Am I right to be triggered or should I just appreciate this guy and my friend's honesty? Sincerely a betch who might need new friends. Yeah, this is really tough. I think this is obviously seems like a bigger issue than just this one guy and this one comment. it's a tough situation because I think this is something that's going to be a deal breaker for some people and it's probably hard to hear. And I think again, talking about acceptance, I think in dating with infertility, that's a big part of it that you're going to have to find a way to accept and I'm not saying this is easy and I hope you can get some help in it because I think it's a big

ask is to accept the fact that this is going to be a deal breaker for some people. which is hard. And I think that's what her friends are kind of telling her and this guy was telling her. Yeah. I think it's really tough. I think like you said, it's going to be, not everyone is going to be equally okay with it. And I mean, everyone has things that are deal breakers for some people, good or bad. I could see why this would be especially triggering because it's really a sensitive subject for her and she does want kids. And it's probably feeding into some stories she's telling about telling herself that no one will want to date her or that she's taking this one person's reaction to this as a reaction that everyone will have. And while there are people who will think that,

there are many people who won't. Right. So I think it's on the one hand, it's like, yeah, I don't think that she needs to be angry at this guy because I don't think it is like something that he's doing wrong per se. I don't know how he phrased it or I don't know what the language he used to say it was. And I can see why just the fact that he, that it's a deal breaker for him would be really hurtful. But I don't necessarily, I think that everyone's allowed to have things that they prioritize or their own goals. And I can see why that would be something someone just didn't want to go through. But I also think that there are going to be many people who won't mind that will love you just for who you are, who will be okay with this or will be okay with doing things in an

alternative way. So I wouldn't take this to mean that everyone will react that way. But yeah, just like anything else in your life. Like some people, it's going to be what some people are looking for or some people it's not going to matter to them as much. And some people, it is. And all you can do is be yourself and find out as soon as you can. Right. Totally.

You know, I think that, first of all, I've said this before. I think adoption is like the most beautiful gift that you can give to the world. You're literally like saving someone's life and, you know, doing something really wonderful. So I think the right person is going to share in the joy of that with you and be able to see that as something that is a beautiful journey that they would like to take with someone and like to take with you. So I do think there's so much beauty and adoption. And I think that that's something that with the right partner you can really do in a way that almost gives you a lot of meaning and joy in ways that having biological children can't. So I would look at that in some ways as there are wonderful things about that that you don't have when you have biological children. Obviously, there's challenges that some people don't want to take on or even just, you know, the basics of wanting biological children.

But I can understand why this is painful. But again, if you look at it like you're saying as sort of like there's deal, like some girls won't date a guy who's not at least, you know, six foot tall. So that's a deal breaker for them, you know. So taking the sting out of this is like, okay, there are people walking around that just by virtue of their height, somebody won't date them. So this doesn't, I think just being mindful of how you're talking to yourself about this and like how you're treating yourself about this is going to be important in terms of saying, okay, this is a deal breaker for this person. And, you know, a lot of people have these types of deal breakers. So hopefully this is something that you don't get too in your head about in thinking that, you know, she says, which understandably, but, you know, that she's worried that she won't be able to find someone because of this thing that she has no control over.

And I think there's a lot of aspects of dating like that where people will just not date someone because they like blondes or not date someone because they like someone that's tall or they have to make a certain amount of money or whatever it is. So this is a tough one. And I do think that eventually, hopefully with some therapy and I can understand, you know, this is the exact type of thing that, you know, you could probably get some help. with is coming to terms with it for yourself and accepting it for yourself fully so that when other people don't accept you, it takes the sting out of it a little bit because you've kind of come to terms with it on your own. And maybe she has. And if so, that's great. And I'm not saying these things are not going to hurt at all when they happen. But it might be a little bit quicker recovery if she can get to a place where she's like, this is something that, you know, this is my journey and

something that I'm excited about and I'm just looking for someone who would be excited to do it with me. I agree with that whole assessment. I think that puts it into perspective really well. But yeah, this is tough. Thank you for sharing. And, you know, I'm sure that there are more people than you realize out there that can relate to this type of, you know, dating with infertility is something that is not easy. Yeah, definitely a struggle. I would give this pretty high. I could see why this would be very triggering. Yeah, totally. I'd give it like an eight or nine. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting that like it's super triggering, but like I don't think anyone did anything wrong. Yeah. No, I agree. I don't think there's like a villain in this. Again, assuming that he shared his thoughts with her in a very sensitive and like respectful and like nice way, which we don't have context for it. But assuming that was done, I don't think that someone else this person is doing something good for you by letting you know that earlier and not wasting any of your time. Totally. Or more of your time. Right, but it doesn't make it feel much better.

Yeah, I agree. All right, let's do one more. All right, I'll read this one. Dear Dr. Naomi and Jordana, a few years ago, I decided to go to therapy because I was constantly seeking out red flags when dating and wanted to unpack why I was so hyper-focused on the negative. I ended up booking an introduction appointment with two therapists. When I went to the first one, we had a fine appointment, but I wasn't sure if she would

push me enough, so I kept my appointment with the second therapist. A couple of minutes into the session with my second therapist, she asked me what my age was. I told her I was 26. She then proceeded to lightly giggle and say, aren't you a bit young to be in therapy? So weird. So weird. I honestly had no idea how to respond. I started to defend myself explaining a couple of my childhood traumas I'd like to unpack,

mom with brain cancer, dad dying in front of me, all that good stuff. But this had already put me in a state of closing up. As someone who overshares about everything, but what truly hurts, this was not an approach that worked well for me. Whenever I look back on it, I still feel very triggered. Is this as triggering as I think it is? It felt like she was negging me, which is the opposite of what I expected from a therapist. Needless to say, this was a deal breaker for me and I decided to go with the first therapist. Her more gentle, nurturing approach turned out to be just what I needed. I'm so glad that this podcast exists and gives a view into what therapy can be like. Thanks for all you do. Too

Young for Therapy. I think that's such a weird comment to make, especially by a therapist, but for anyone, I mean, there are many children who are in therapy. Like three, the age, two. Yeah. Right. To me, it's like the earlier or the better. Like, yeah. You know, I think what might have happened here, and this is, I get it, that comment in and of itself is just so strange. But what I think what might have happened is she went in and started talking about how to date differently or why, you know, she was focusing on the negative when she was dating. And so maybe saying something, maybe she said something along lines of like, I'm afraid I'm not going to meet anyone. I keep ruling out all these guys. And then she said, well, I'm 26. And I think maybe what the therapist

meant to say is, aren't you a bit young to be stressing about when you're going to get married? Even that comment is like annoying, but maybe it was more, not that she's in therapy, but that she was so worried about meeting someone at the age of 26. I don't, that's the only thing I can think of because the comment in and of itself is so absurd. It almost doesn't even make any sense. Right, right. Being too young for therapy at 26. I could see if someone brought in like an 18-month-old and said, like, I want them to get therapy.

You might say they're a little young for therapy. But even then, even that. Even that. Sometimes. Even that. But like at 26, I can't imagine that she really meant that she's too young to be in therapy. The only thing I can think of is that she meant like maybe you're too young to be like stressing about meeting a person. But that's a little ridiculous too.

Right. This is, I don't know if I would say triggering because it doesn't. I guess it's true. It is triggering for her because she did have all this deep stuff that she has trouble opening up about. and it was almost like closing the door before she was even able to go there, which I could see being like, okay, now I'm not even trying anymore. Like I went here. I'm trying to like do this thing that's uncomfortable for me and this woman's kind of

kicking me out. Yeah. I mean, good, good for her that like she made multiple appointments, that she was doing her due diligence, that she found someone. I mean, to me, it's more like, let's say you were right. And it really was just about her saying, you know, you're just like you're so young. you don't need to be like worried about that thing. That's clearly not the approach she wanted,

even if it was in the best case. It's not a match for her. And again, I don't, I could, maybe it's the triggering, it clearly was triggering because in some way she has anxiety about the fact that she's someone who now has to go to therapy. To me, that that's indicative of that. The fact that she's triggered by that statement

is like she has some shame in the idea of going to therapy. Because if she didn't, if she didn't believe that at all, I don't think she would find it that offensive. Right. Totally. And as a therapist, I wonder if this was like an early career. As a therapist, I get a lot of people who come in and they talk about some stuff where it seems

like they're coming in. Like I give them time and I ask the questions to help unpack why they're really there. A lot of people, like this woman describes herself, you know, someone who overshares about everything but what truly hurts. And she's not alone in that. A lot of people do that. They come, they know they need therapy. they get themselves in the door.

But there's some really painful stuff that no, they're not ready to start talking about that in the first session with a stranger. And I get that as a therapist, that there's stuff that's there that's going to have to come out gradually as we develop rapport and as we get a closer relationship. I've had people that, you know, have big issues

that, you know, only have the courage to disclose after we've been in therapy for several months. So I think as a therapist, you have to be aware that a lot of times what people come in and start talking about on their first session isn't really what's the underlying issue. That's just what the thing is that they're comfortable talking about. And I think that that's an important thing for a therapist to realize is, I'm a stranger. You know, you probably don't even talk about this with your best friends and your parents and your family.

So I have to give you a little bit of time to open up and get to what's really, bothering you. So I do feel badly that she was turned off by this person who wasn't patient with her as she was going through this. But look, I guess the silver lining is it was a crash course in her probably coming out to this therapist in the first session and being like, here's what I'm dealing with. My mom has brain cancer. I watched my father die. I have childhood trauma. Like it was almost helped her speedily get to the root of her issues by having to kind of. of defend herself to this therapist, she could take all that information,

go to the first therapist, and actually probably do some good work with it. Right. Clearly with an approach that's an approach that's a better match for her personality also. Right. But yeah, I could see that'd be like a weird triggering comment to make.

So I would give it a high grade. I think it's like a six or seven. Yeah, I would give, I definitely would go towards the seven because she's been through so much. She's like, sorry I'm not talking about like watching my father die within the first 10 minutes of meeting you. You know, like that. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a rude comment to make. I totally agree with that. Yeah. I think that's it for today's session. Thank you for your help with my sleep anxiety. Yeah. Just try it. There's a couple of things, a couple of pieces of homework.

If you can't sleep, especially if you don't have anything that you really need to be like up and at them for, just pretend. you're in a, you know those, they have those, like, I forget what it's called, like those float rooms. No. It's like a, you go into like body temperature water and it's like a sensory deprivation tank. You've never heard of this thing? Sounds familiar. I've actually never done it, but I've heard about it.

It's like a sensory deprivation tank where basically you go and you lay in like body temperature water and it's completely silent and completely dark and you just remove. all stimulation and it's supposed to just be very relaxing because you're like removing all external stimulation. So if you could almost look at that moment when you're lying in bed and you can't sleep as like this is an experience that you can, you know, make into something positive by just like lying there and enjoying the moment of the peace and quiet and mindfulness of like, it's a moment to get to know your mind instead of like being judgmental or critical of your mind like where is my mind going oh it's going there okay do i like that not really maybe i'll just

kind of turn back to my breath or notice the sensation of the sheets in front of me the other thing that i've heard as tip as a tip when you're really talking about sleep deprivation i mean sleep difficulty is to like get up and leave the room if you're not sleeping so that's like an alternative um like get up go somewhere else like wait till you get tired and then come back to the bed yeah that always feels like I'm giving up. Yeah, which I guess in some ways is in line with what I'm saying, which is like either accept it and lie there and enjoy it. But if you're like resisting and resisting and resisting, you might as well get out. You might as well get up. Yeah. So your homework is one, to try either one or two of those tactics if you can't sleep. And then 10 breaths in a cold shower,

breathe into it, see if it helps you kind of like release your resistance a little bit. Okay. I'm going to work on that. I'll let you know in our next session. How that goes. Sounds good. I think that's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales-Pucco, and Rebecca Salis McHan. Editing by Missileo Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com. We'll leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294.