Oversharing - How To Set Healthy Boundaries Ft. Terri Cole

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

Jordana and Dr. Naomi are joined by licensed psychotherapist Terri Cole to talk all about learning to set proper boundaries in your life. They discuss how Terri learned to set boundaries for herself, what it means to set your own standards, and why you don’t always have to jump straight to cutting people off from your life. They also share some tips for how to approach difficult conversations around boundaries with loved ones so that they are open to accepting your preferences. They answer an email from a listener whose relationship with her family improved when she moved further away from home, but is now feeling like they don’t respect her choices when she’s close by. Then Jordana and Dr. Naomi answer a Betchicist question about whether or not you should feel obligated to give your friends a good deal on Taylor Swift tickets. Where do you draw the line between profit and friendship? Finally, they weigh in on a pair of Triggered submissions about a missing dinner invitation and a Starbucks barista mishap. Check out our latest promo codes here: https://betches.com/promos Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And today we are joined by a very special guest, Terry Cole, psychotherapist,

who talks all about boundaries on Instagram. I know so many people on our team are huge fans. and I think we could all use a little help with boundaries. So can you give us a little bit of the background, how you came to be doing what you do, all of it? I would love to. Okay. So what do they say about what you teach?

You teach what you most need to learn most of the time. So I was a boundary disaster for a very long time in my life. And I had a whole full career in entertainment as an agent, negotiating contracts or supermodels and celebrities. before I became a psychotherapist. And that's not a hot bed of mental health, obviously. And it's also not a hot bed of good boundaries either. So it was one of these situations where I was unaware that so much of the pain I was experiencing

in my relationships and in my life had to do with having bad boundaries, having disordered boundaries, having boundaries that were too porous. I didn't know what boundaries were. So as I learned through my own therapeutic process, I stopped drinking when I was. I was in college, believe it or not. I drank a lot between 12 and 22, though. So I was literally my senior year of college where I was like, yeah, I'm probably going to die if I keep doing it this way. And I had a therapist who was amazing, and this, of course, influenced what I did in my life, who basically said, if you don't seek treatment with a 12-step program, I will terminate seeing you.

I was like, holy moly. Like, this must be serious if Bev is. is going to break up with me over it. Like, first of all, I didn't even know she was allowed to break up with me. I was like, can you just ditch me? Because I'm not doing what you want me to do. But she was like, here's the thing. If we don't handle this, because this is the thing that's creating all these other problems, we're never going to get to any original injuries.

Like, we're just going to be putting out fires from now until the end of your life, which I'm not interested in doing. Of course, when I became a therapist, I fully understood, you know, And I appreciated her saying that at the time because it made me really take it seriously. And now I was a senior just about to graduate college and sober for the first time in many years and looking at life, eyes wide open, really feeling everything. And now I'm starting to see how, why do I feel so resentful in my relationships? Why do I feel taken advantage of?

Why do I feel like people, I'm underappreciated, not knowing. I was really over-functioning and over-giving and doing all the over-things, but I was sort of blaming the other people in my life. So that was the longest way around the barn to get back to the reason why boundaries became a real passion for me is that once I got out of being a talent agent and became a psychotherapist, so you have my own story of learning about boundaries and how that then changed my life. But then I started seeing clients, and it didn't matter what people's presenting problems were. I could just, it could all come down to them having no idea how to create and uphold

boundaries in their life, not even knowing what their rights were in their relationships. And, you know, one of the things that people would always ask me is, why don't I know? Like, what's my, like, what's wrong with me, basically? And I kind of felt the same way. I was very, always smart, always very ambitious, always could really figure out anything, but I couldn't figure that out. And I would say to my clients, listen, I want you to think about being fluent in the language of boundaries, right? That's what it is. It's a language. And you wouldn't feel bad if you were like, I really want to be fluent in French. I'm just going to cross my fingers and pray. Like you wouldn't. You'd be like, someone needs to teach me. I need to learn. There's got to be a book. There's got to be

something. So what I discovered through being a therapist for 25 years, so I guess I started teaching this around year 15 of my therapy practice where I was starting to have a more public presence, I just couldn't believe how nobody knew and how much pain and suffering, the same way so much of my pain and suffering was being caused by this. And so I just started taking copious notes. I started teaching it. I created a course. I beta tested the course. I did the whole entire thing to go, is this going to work? Like I knew it worked in my office. I knew one-on-one therapy. I could absolutely teach someone to become fluent in the language of boundaries. They could go from being a boundary disaster to a boundary boss. No problem. And it would take time. But I knew I could do it.

I didn't know. Would it work if it was virtual? Would it work if it's a group of 300 people? Like, I did not know. So I beta tested it with a group of like 60 women to start and then figured it out from there, and that was many years ago, and I've been teaching it a lot since. And then I actually wrote the book, and it came out in 2020, Bound Your Boss, because the thing that was really missing out there that I saw in my estimation was a book that if someone was in, like, Serbia, if someone was, like, a broke mom of three kids waitress in, like, the middle of, you know, the U.S., and really felt like they were screwed because they don't have money for therapy. They don't have money to join these courses. I got this book in so many libraries because I wanted anybody who needed it

to have access to it. And so the way that I wrote the book was no matter where you are in your journey, you start from the beginning and you do it till the end. So this is not one of those books like get inspiration and flip around and open it up to page 200. That's not it. This, we just go from the beginning and it's basically teaching people next right action, next right action, next right action, because it's really not, I mean, you guys know this, but it's not one size fits all, right? Like Naomi, what's right for you, your boundaries, probably not the same exact ones for Jordana, definitely not the same for me. And we all have our own flavor or our own, what makes us comfortable the way we interact

in our relationships. But the bottom line is that the importance of us knowing what our boundaries are and being able to communicate them is the key to changing what's not working in most people's lives. I love that. And it makes me think of this. I love that it's like, you know, you can kind of just buy this one book and feel like you can take control over this thing. That similarly to being an alcoholic or a substance abuser is like you got to tackle that before you can tackle everything else or you're just putting out fires your whole life. And if you have poor boundaries, it's probably the same thing. My question for you and I know that you incorporate some mindfulness into what you do. So and this has to do with at least one of the emails. that we're going to read later is this idea of like having overcoming the discomfort that other people's emotions bring for us. I think that that happens all the time. I know that happens for me. That's kind of what was going on. At the last session, I was going to talk to Jordana about this. I was feeling overwhelmed. I was feeling like a little bit in a funk. And I realized that like all the

emotions of everybody around me were really affecting me. So I don't know if that's maybe you could say a little bit about, I guess my big question for you is, how do you know? There are some relationships in our life that we can be like, I'm out, right? If it's a romantic partner or a friendship, there are some relationships where it's a little harder to perhaps set firm, super firm boundaries. If that person's not going to change, if that person, you know, are you talking about your kids? How do I just get them to stop asking? for things.

They keep needing to eat three times a day. They're so annoying, demanding, entitled. If you have relationships where you're like, I know this person is not going to change, sometimes the solution might be relax into the discomfort of that person's behavior and what that brings up in me that I just sometimes need to say, okay, this person is how they are. I'm not going to change them. How can I be a little less triggered versus when do you know this is a place where like, if this person is going to continue to act like this,

I can't be around them. I know it's a big question. I don't know that you can answer it in this minute, but. I think I can't do it in a minute, but I can do it this minute. So let's take it from my definition, what boundaries are, right? You, your boundaries are your own personal rules of engagement, right? This lets other people know what's okay with you and what's not. okay with you. Your boundaries are made up of your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal

breakers. So it's not enough to just know them, which most people don't. You need to know them and then be able to frigging communicate them. Okay, you can see why a boundary boss was needed because people don't know how to do it. So what you're talking about, you know, first of all, three things I want to say about the way that you said what you said. First of all, the first thing you said is, listen, there's some people in our lives where we're like, we know it's done. And there is an unconscious, and I'm not saying you necessarily, but association with boundaries and cutting off relationships, right? Literally, it's like there's a million things to do in between the, this is so bad. Like, I'm ghosting you. But here's the thing. There are so many

myths around boundaries. And what does it mean if you have good boundaries? Are you bitchy? Are you selfish? Are you self-absorbed? Are you not loving? Are you not feminine, quote-unquote, right? In the way that we're seen. We're supposed to be the givers, the doers, the bridgers, we're the ones, right? It's like people would think this is a good thing to say, oh my God, Betty's amazing. She would give anyone the shirt off her back. You want to be like, how about some discern? Keep your freaking shirt on. First of all, start there. Secondly, how about a little bit of discernment? Don't give anybody the shirt off your back.

Yes, the people you love the most, would you sacrifice for them? Of course. And even when you have great boundaries, you will still make those mindful decisions, right? This doesn't mean we have good boundaries and now we're just like cutting people off and verbally punching them in the face. But I have to say, a lot of times people have this fear. My therapy clients would be like, I don't want them to think, you know, I don't want them to feel. And the moment you're saying either one of those things, you just need to back it up and get back on your own side of the street. Because what someone else thinks or feels is their side of the street.

Your side of the street is how you think, how you feel. So to go back to your actual question is the reason why I broke boundaries down to from preferences to deal breakers is because not all boundary requests are made equal. But they're still important. You may have a preference, Naomi, you may say, you know what, I really would like to eat Chinese food tonight or Japanese food tonight. And you let that preference be known to your partner, whoever you're eating with. Maybe they go, sounds great, let's do it. Maybe they go, no, I had it for lunch where they don't want it. Right?

We negotiate for our needs. But how the people in our lives know us is by us sharing our preferences, desires, limits, and deal breakers. because they don't just make up your boundaries. They actually make up who you are as a person. And so many of us have been indoctrinated into being like easy, breezy, wanting to be the cool chick, being like, you know, no must, no fuss, whatever you guys want to do, as if having no opinion, not asserting yourself is something that is desirable, right? And again, what is the underneath of that is wanting to avoid conflict? Right. Right?

Don't want to be rejected. Don't want anyone else to be mad. And this, finally, I'm getting back to your whole point, is how do we become less impacted by other people's behavior or other people's feelings about us drawing boundaries? So part of it is we have to go through. Let's just say people listening are like, I'm a disaster. I have no idea what my boundaries are. I don't know what I need. I don't know how to do it.

It's also overwhelming. The first place we would start is, I would say, let's just quickly do a resentment inventory. Oh, I love that. That sounds fun. Yes. Easy breezy, right? Because we all friggin know what we're feeling resentful about. We do.

It's like a file cabinet in our mind. We may not say anything about it, but we know. We're like, you know, I didn't like that tone of voice. Or I didn't like how I feel like you cut me off. or I don't feel like you were listening or whatever. Or someone borrowing money from you and not paying it back. I mean, P.S. just don't lend anybody money.

All right, moving on. If we're talking about good boundaries. And the way you can do that, here's a little side note. Here's a little script people can use. If you don't want to lend people money and you shouldn't, if you want to continue to have a relationship with them unless you're a banker, right? Because I promise you it's going to somehow devolve into a shit joke as it usually does. you can say, hey, I actually just don't lend money.

It's a policy. It's not personal. It's just my policy. This is how I protect my relationships. Right. Anyway, back to what we're talking about. So, Jordana, that couple hundred bucks that you gave me, I'm just kidding. You're like, wait a minute, give me that back.

We were going to do a resentment inventory. And why is that? Because it would take each of you and me and every person listening about three seconds to write down at least one name of someone we're feeling resentful. towards about something. And then we look at it and go, okay, why? Okay, what could I do differently? What do I need to do differently? Is there something I need to do? Because here's the thing. So much of the time when in our minds we think someone is a boundary bully, especially if we are not fluent in the language of boundaries, we haven't even talk to them. We haven't even tried. We haven't

even confronted them. We haven't even made our request. We're like, can't believe how entitled Bob is. Like, what an idiot. Instead of being like, hey, Bob, please don't call me on the weekends because they don't work on the weekends. And if you do, it really just bothers me or whatever. And then we see, we only see how flexible other people are if we actually step up and have a conversation. So I always split people into boundary first timers. They're the people. They're the people you haven't said anything to yet, even though you feel like they should know, quote, unquote, they don't. We're going to go on the assumption that nobody's reading anybody's mind. So you would approach a boundary first timer differently than a repeat offender, differently than a boundary

destroyer. So we have different categories of people. So let's jump to the boundary destroyer, because I think, I think sometimes we get a lot, we get a lot of callers and we could do the email, if you want to jump to that. But I think that's probably where my question was starting. Maybe this is personal and sort of, you know, my own stuff coming through. But what do you do if there's a person where you've expressed your boundaries? They're not changing. You've let them know what you want.

They're not doing what. They don't respect that desire or that choice. They're not respecting it. But you still want to have some kind of relationship. That's where I think sometimes it gets really. really sticky. Agreed. Here's the thing.

There's two places here. One, what you're talking about is with a repeat offender, not a destroyer, we're going to get there, but not a destroyer just yet. With a repeat offender, part of the strategy that I teach you in the book and in my courses is that you must add a consequence. Right? Because what's going to, some people, most people, most human beings, what is the thing that motivates us?

Pain. and it doesn't have to be like brutal pain, but just discomfort is the thing that wakes us up. So even let's just say it's something simple. Like you ask your partner to let you know that they're going to be late. Maybe it's when you're the person cooking dinner, but they don't do it. They don't let you know. And they're late. And the dinner's on the table when it's getting cold or whatever.

You make a first timer, hey, I'd like to make a simple request that you let me know if you're going to be more than five minutes late. and I'll just hold the dinner till you get home or whatever, and they go, okay, I'll let you know. Next time they don't. You have to revisit. Hey, we had this. You agreed to it. Or maybe the first time you didn't get them to agree. So the second time you go, can we have an agreement that you're going to?

So you're kind of getting them to enroll in and be like, okay, they say yes. If they don't do it at their time. And then that time you say, listen, because if you continue to be late and not let me know, I'm actually going to eat without you. and I'll put your food back in the fridge and you'll eat by yourself, which makes me sad because I really love eating together and it's a bummer, but I'm not, you know, we've had this conversation three times and it really makes me feel disrespected that you don't do it or whatever. By that last time.

So that's the consequence, right? It's got to be commensurate to quote unquote the crime, right? It can't be like ridiculous, obviously. And I think people have difficulty holding up a consequence, but it would be very impactful. if you eat together as a part of your family tradition, let's say, or part of your couple tradition, you not eating with them because that being a consequence would be very impactful if there's someone who cares about eating with you, right? Now, again, people will be like, oh, you're punishing the person. No. Here's the thing, though. If it's important to you, if it matters to you, and if it's someone who's a repeat offender,

without a consequence, the likelihood of you getting out of that groundhog day, fighting about the same crap over and over and over is small. So that's the first thing, Naomi, to speak to what you're talking about. We don't know how they would change if there was a consequence. And people will be like it's punishing the other person. It's not. It's you letting them know, this is what I must do to protect myself. This is the action I will take.

if you continue to not keep your word, right? Nobody's making the person say they'll agree to call you and let you know you're going to be late. They've agreed two, three, four times and not done it. So unless something's wrong with their actual brain, something has to change. So that is we add a consequence. And it's how we do it with kids too and with teenagers or whatever. There's got to be some kind of consequence or them really wanting to follow your rules is probably small. And mean, if a kid is individuating, right, they're going to need to step out in some ways.

So if the consequences they can't use the car, they can't play video games or can't be on their phone or whatever the thing is they value, they're less likely to continue to do that thing because they're not going to want that consequence. Boundary Destroyers are a whole different breed. And to such a degree that I had to have an actual chapter in the book completely dedicated to Boundary Destroyers because everything I teach. you in the book, when you get to boundary destroyers doesn't apply. Right. It's like we're talking about cluster B personality disorders, you know, people who are narcissistic personality disorder untreated. A lot of times it's untreated and people who are abusive, people are extremely difficult,

people who are super manipulative. So in that chapter and how to deal with boundary destroyers has more to do with becoming very well versed at the top ways that people like this manipulate others, really looking at who you want in the VIP section of your life, like who gets close contact to your most tender heart. It should definitely not be anyone who is a boundary destroyer because they will definitely cause pain intentionally. And that's hard for people to see and to look at it. But it's important. What I want my goal with that chapter was to teach people about manipulation techniques that you wouldn't think of because you're not that person.

Because you're a decent person. And it's part of the biggest problem I see. I mean, maybe you see this in your practice as well, is that people, it's called positive projection, where we positively project our good qualities, our decency. or values or all of it, on to other people. And we talk ourselves out of seeing what we see. If you're looking at, like, what are the top manipulation tactics, gaslighting, love bombing, flipping the script,

where if you've ever been in a relationship with someone who's very skilled at this, it could be a narcissist, it could be someone else. But where you're pissed at them and you go to have a conversation and somehow you leave that conversation crying and apologizing and, like, begging their forgiveness, You're like, how the hell did that happen again? That is a skill set. Right.

So we can't apply what you learn, you know, your healthy boundary strategies to boundary destroyers, but you can learn to protect yourself more readily. And when what you were talking about more at the top, I think it has to do with this, where there are some relationships where it is absolutely appropriate. And maybe the only appropriate thing is to go and, no contact. If someone is actively abusive to you, if someone is causing you pain and stress in your life, getting involved with your other relationships, triangulating you with other, like all of the things, a lot of times you can put boundaries in place by

physically, like almost physically distancing yourself. Like we've been trained by people that they call, we need to pick up or we need to get right back to them. This is where we retrain people in this process of having healthier boundaries. If you've trained everyone that you're going to give them an immediate response, now we're going to change that because not everyone deserves an immediate response and you don't owe an immediate response to everyone. People, right, we don't want non-priority folks taking up priority seats in the VIP section of our lives because nobody has the bandwidth for that, you know? Yes. Right. What if you disagree with someone else's boundaries or you know you think they're being i don't know if this is a term but like a little bit of

a boundary monster where they're using like this term of boundaries to sort of ask for things that other people don't find to be super rational or they're abusing that boundary thing i think we had we had someone write in a couple weeks ago and she was talking about how her husband has cut off his father and she didn't really she couldn't understand why like the the reasoning that he was giving just really didn't make sense, didn't seem to fit the crime of what he had done, which was like, I think she said it was he had given them money in an attempt to control them or something like that. But anyway, she didn't agree with the boundary that he made, which was to entirely cut him off from both her and their son.

So what do you do in that kind of scenario where you feel like the other person might be irrational? Yeah. Well, there's two questions. So let's answer this one first, which is there's definitely more to that story than she wrote. There's more of that story than she knows. That's what we were saying. There's something else deeper behind why he feels so strongly about this thing. Yeah.

Yep. So my feeling is if I were that person, I would talk to the husband and say, I want to understand. I love you. You're my priority. But I want to understand. And this is a unilateral decision that you made for all of us because your father's also been in my life for all of these years. So tell me.

tell me, let's talk. Like try to get a real conversation going about, it seems like there's more. It seems like there's more. Or maybe this guy used coercive control with cash, this guy's whole life, and maybe he just got sick of it. Like, we don't know, right? Because there's a lot of, and that is boundary overstepping and can be emasculating and all those other things too. So there's that. Your question, Dredana, was when someone misuses the term,

boundaries. When they go, this is my boundary. But really, it's not. It's them. So it'll be like I had a client whose boyfriend was like, it's my boundary that when you're out with your friends, you call me at least once an hour. It was like absolutely ridiculous. Kind of like the Jonah Hill situation. Yeah. Absolutely, which I've wrote a whole thing about. We can definitely discuss. But that's not a boundary that is trying to use the word boundaries as a lever to control another person's behavior. So the Jonah Hill, let's just quickly do it because it actually is like the perfect example of Jonah Hill meets this girl, this woman on Instagram, sees she's a surfer, sees all the stuff she puts up the way that she lives her life, gets into a relationship with her,

within the first four to six months is like, oh yeah, when I met you, you were a public figure surfer. So obviously you would have pictures of yourself surfing in a bathing suit unless you're going to wear a burqa. So he knew exactly who she was and then was like, but now it has to change. I likened it to someone being involved with an actor, a leading man and saying, this is amazing, this is great. And then six months in being like, but you can't actually do any more love scenes or we're breaking up because that's my boundary and you're this is very gross to me that you do that. Would it be different if, you know, they met offline, they got into a relationship and then

she became a surfer or the person becomes an actor and they're suddenly doing these love scenes? Is that more okay? Here's the thing. It's, first of all, I feel like it speaks not good of the relationship you have. If you think that, you know, like there's a lack of trust. Right? Because when you think of the Joe in a hill, he was like, you can't go out with these unstable friends for lunch. Like, what are you talking about? Like, what was it, 1800s? Like unsavory women? Like, what? Anyway, his boundaries, quote unquote, which were all demands. And the way he was, people were so sucked in, though. This was the thing that bummed me out. I fell into some of the, some of the comment sections, not a lot, but just enough where people are like, he told. her it was fine if she didn't agree that he he respects who she like he said all the right words which were fake because his behavior was none of that they're like so what's the problem

the problem is it's not for him to say what she wears the problem is when he met her she was a surfer with a public image and six months then he wants to change that so it is all about control would it be, your question, Duranana, would it be different? It would be up for a conversation. How does me change in my career impact us if it's going to bring visibility to both of us? How does me changing my career impact the relationship if we share money? Like there are a couple conversations that can be had. My husband wanted to just change his career after 50-something years. I would obviously, he's a grown man and can do what he wants, but I would hope we would talk about it.

And if you wanted to do something dangerous, we would talk about it, especially if you have little kids. So I think that it depends on the situation and the relationship and what the changes are. But if someone is trying to control the way you look, how you dress, who you spend time with, right? And it's different than saying if I'm uncomfortable with you spending time with this person who I know actively does drugs, that concerns me. That's different than being like, I don't like this person. I don't want you hanging out with them. Like we have to negotiate in relationships, but the misuse of boundaries is rampant. I mean, I get people emailing me all the time.

So I have a great example, though, of what I think can be, what can clarify. I had a client who liked to go to bed early at night and her husband liked to go to bed late. So she was like, it bums me out. I really want to at least a couple nights a week, us be together with her. But the way that she was doing it, she was like, he should go to bed earlier because he's tired. It's not good that he goes to bed late, right? I'm the righteous one because I go to bed early. He's the wrong one because he goes to bed late, basically.

But then he would come to bed late. late and not be considerate. He would flip on the light. He would wake her up. He would then be asleep in one second and then she would be awake until like 3 a.m. So I was like, listen, let's get clear. Your partner is a grown ass man. He can go to bed whenever the hell he wants. That's that's not a boundary because she was sort of like, it's my boundary. I'm like, no, nope, that's not a boundary. The boundary comes in when he is being inconsiderate at one in the morning when you've been sleeping since 10. You can say, I'd like to make a simple request that you get undressed in the second bedroom, that you brush your teeth quietly. I bought you a little

minor's lamp or a little like something so that he's not flipping on the entire light to wake her up. But can you see the difference? So she was trying to use, here's my boundary. You need to come to bed early with me. And that's manipulation and control and her trying to get her need met by calling in a boundary. But she did have a right. It spilled over onto her side of the street when he was waking her up nightly. That is her side of the street to say, hey, this is not cool. And I'd like to make a simple request that. And actually, they, he did do that. They agreed they were going to go to bed together at 11 o'clock, three nights a week, and at least have a time they could have sex or do whatever they're doing. So, I mean, they figured it out. Like, you can negotiate. We can work things out.

but that's the distinction between boundary as control and boundary as what is your right. And I feel like these boundary, just the boundary conversations, because it sounds like your book, which I love, is like a 101, like from the beginning of where I don't even know. And then the stuff that, some of the stuff that we deal with is like at the end of like, this is pathological, but here's some strategies on how to deal with. But what I love is the intro boundary conversations could be so healing in all of these situations and bring up, you know, even if it's like, well, I want you to go to bed at the same time as me. Well, why?

Because I'm feeling disconnected. I don't know if you love me. I need more physical touch. Like, okay, great. That's what we really need to talk about. But the presenting symptom is this boundary disconnect, whether it's the, you know, with the father-in-law, with the money control, like you said, there's more to it. the conversation about this particular boundary is almost like the, you know, it's like the fuel

for a conversation that probably needs to be had. So I think sometimes something that feels like it could be scary and a conflict and potentially an argument might end up just opening up this whole, you know, pathway to connection for relationships. Without a doubt, I also think that, you know, I did a whole chapter of just scripts because one of the biggest things that people, they want to have the conversation. They feel like is missing for them is the actual words. Like, they don't know what to say. They feel like they're going to do it wrong. They're going to, or they wait too long, and then they're really heated when they do it. So it's like, oh, it becomes more of a fight, like starting a fight than a conversation. And even just starting any conversation,

like especially if it's with a loved one, with sweetness. Like, we can always start with. I so appreciate that you think of me and I actually can't go on Wednesday night, right? Like, we can say no to something, but we can do it with kindness, especially if it's people that we care about. We can say, and this is from Marshall Rosenthal, Rosenthal, the nonviolent communication where one of his lines is, I'd like to make a simple request. I'd like to make a simple request. I like that. I love it. I've been using it for years because no matter what you're asking, the request. The request, itself, let's be honest, it is pretty simple. It doesn't mean the person's going to do it. It doesn't mean that people will always acquiesce, but I like it. Some people don't like that

frame. I find it to be like soothing. There's something casual about it. But I walk you through in the book that there's like four steps that you go through when you know you need to set a boundary. And I think that knowing who you are, like there's different archetypes, right? Because people think that the only type of disordered boundaries are porous boundaries, meaning too malleable, people who are too much of a pushover, which is like more of the chameleon or the peacekeeper, right? But that's not it. There's also people who have rigid boundaries, which is more of the ice queen, which is more of the loner. And so I actually have a quiz that's free if people want to do it, where you can figure out which one you are. It's just boundaryquiz.com. And I bet I could guess what

both of you are, but I'm not going to, because I want you to take the quiz. I kind of want to know. Well, you have to go take BoundaryQuiz.com and then I'll email you what my guess was. Okay. Because there's, on the more rigid ones, there's like the powerhouse as well. So here's the thing. When you're out of balance, you might have more rigid boundaries. But each one of these archetypes in the Boundary Quiz, of course, has all of their great qualities as well, right? learning how to have better boundaries, healthier boundaries, just helps you amplify your good qualities,

become stronger, and not let the fear of having these, quote, unquote, hard conversations. Like, they don't have to be hard, and the more you do it. And I have, I mean, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people at this point, writing in. And if you look at the reviews for the book, it's unbelievable. People are like, hi, my whole life changed. How you don't? Like people writing in talking about, though, how it seemed impossible for them to change the way they interact.

And the way we break it down in the book, the way that I break it down is very simple. Like, it's just this next right action. It's not grabbing a bullhorn and like warning everyone that there's a new boundary sheriff in town. Like, we don't need to, but people want to. Trust me, especially my codependence, want to be like, so should I tell them? It's all going to change. I'm like, no, you're actually just going to change your half of the dance. It's amazing how they won't be able to do the same exact thing that they were doing if you change your half of the dance.

Okay, so we have an email about family boundaries, which I think, you know, Naomi and I are one of nine kids. So there's a lot of different marriages. So I think boundaries are very big hot topic in our family. So I'll read the email and we can discuss. Okay. Okay. Hey, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, thank you for this podcast. It feels like an additional hour of therapy each week and I so look forward to it. I have a question for you about boundary setting.

I recently moved back to the city where I'm from and where my entire family still lives after a three-year period of living out of state. One reason I was comfortable leaving the state all those years ago was that I found it nearly impossible to set boundaries with my family. However, when I moved away, my relationship with my family got a lot better. 30-minute long, pleasant catch-up phone calls between me and each family member occurred weekly. Quarterly visits felt fun and carefree. I felt in touch with everyone, but also had the necessary distance I needed to feel independent and happy. Since I moved away, my brother and parents have gotten into the pattern of seeing each other multiple times a week,

which for me does not vibe with how I see myself maintaining distance. Now that I'm back home, I can feel less slipping into old patterns. I've said no to plans that don't align with the boundaries I've set out for myself. I don't feel the need to see my family more than once every other week or so. I don't want to travel an hour each way to my brother's house during the work week to hang out, etc. I don't necessarily have a conflict when I say no to these plans. I just ultimately don't want to feel pressure to participate if I don't want to.

It is worth noting, I still maintain the weekly phone calls with my family members to feel closeness in that way. However, anytime I say no to an in-person plan for whatever reason, I'm bombarded with passive-aggressive texts, calls, you're making your mother sad, guilt trips, etc. It feels like my family doesn't respect the authority I'm trying to hold over my own schedule and still sees me as the baby of the family and too young to know what's best, despite that I'm in my 30s. How can I better set boundaries? I've tried calling them to more thoughtfully explain where I'm coming from, but everything I say in my defense seems to upset someone. And any advice on how to not let this dynamic maybe feel anxious and ultimately spiral into not wanting to see them at all an independent betch? Okay. My two cents.

I think you had a really good idea living far away. That's the truth, right? Right. You had sometimes geographic boundaries are the best boundaries for family that you love. So it seems like you're like it seems like they don't respect. No, they definitely do not respect your autonomy, your sovereignty, your ability to make decisions for yourself. So I think you have a couple of choices, but I seriously, I really mean, perhaps, I don't know what you do for living, but I think maybe physically being further away, you could go back to you were enjoying your family, seeing them quarterly, it was nice, you liked it, maybe there's something real there. Other people will disagree.

They'll say, you should be able to change them. They should be able to respect you. They should, maybe they will, but maybe they won't. And if they don't, you have to look at what might happen to their relationship because you're already, I can tell with the tone, there's already a frustration. She literally said, what do I do so that I don't want to not see them at all, which means that's already in her mind, like a total cutoff, which is painful. and obviously you love your family.

So I think that if you've tried to have conversations, you can, if you don't want to move, you can try again. But how much evidence do we need of their inability to accept you as a grown-up? Right. And you might need more. See if they would get into a therapy with you, right? See if you and your mom could do like three sessions of therapy

to talk about this. I mean, there's many things. There's lots of interventions if you wanted to get creative that you could do. And I don't know what language you're using when you talk to them. I don't know. But I do know it's affecting you if it's making you feel anxious and making you feel upset. So they're letting you know they think you're doing something wrong because you want less contact than your brother does. And there's nothing wrong, of course, with you wanting less contact than your brother does. So I don't know if any of that was helpful, but that's my two cents. Here's my question, right? Because if you weren't here and I was answering this question and I'm big on like mindfulness and kind of like relaxing into the discomfort, what I probably would have said and I'm interested to hear your perspective on it is like, okay, you say you're not coming, you get the passive aggressive text, you're still not coming. And how can you just recognize, okay, this passive aggressive text is triggering me. It's making me feel anxious. I feel it in my. even as I'm like describing this, I'm like feeling it a little bit in my chest, like a little bit of butterflies in my stomach. This person's not pleased with me. How can I, you know, maybe stay where she is, not have to move, but just kind of, is there a piece where you can just tolerate that other people aren't going to like it?

And I'm still not going, but I'm also not going to have to, you know, I'm going to be able to maybe desensitize my. myself to this idea that my behavior makes other people unhappy, even if it continues to make them unhappy and they continue to send passive aggressive texts. What tips do you have if that's, I mean, or is that not something you might recommend? No, I actually think that that's a great idea in respect to in all of this. What is the actual thing that she can control is her mind, is her perception, is her the way that she's receiving it. So I actually think that's a great idea before moving away, can you be an acceptance? Because here's the thing. A new normal will evolve, right? It just

will. So if you can stick to your guns in respect to saying, hey, mom, every time I say no to an invite and you send me passive, progressive text messages, I just have to say it bums me out and doesn't really make me want to hang out at all. Like, it really doesn't. So I'm going to ask you to please just respect my decision or whatever. Like, I don't think I would fully give up on trying to get them to respect it. But your point is great in that the most important thing is that you don't do the things you don't want to do, right? That you feel like I'm just doing it to please someone else, but it's going against my grain.

Like, I want to live my own life. I want to see them once every other week. I want to talk to them weekly. and that is enough for me, you know, you want to be able to stand true in that. And that is the most important thing. But it can be very anxiety provoking if you come from a family that is not direct communicators, which this one is obviously not, to be like the child in you get so activated from a guilty text from your mother. You want to be like, I'm healthy enough, I'm cool enough. This does not threaten my life. I should just be fine.

fine with it, but that's a tall order when you're trying to build a career and live a life and meditate and do whatever else you're doing in your life. It's almost always like something undone on your to-do list. So talk about it in therapy. If you're in therapy, you know, see what your therapist can help you with coming up with a strategy. But I agree with Dr. Naomi. Like here's the deal. The new normal, the homeostasis in that system, meaning the balance, that's going to happen either way. So either they're going to get used to and habituated to what you're doing. And they're going to get bored of trying to harass you into changing.

And I think that's actually a good possibility that that will happen if you can tough it out. Right. I think this also seems like a clear example of someone almost trying to, you know, when you force your boundary preferences on someone else, it usually has the opposite effect of making them, you know, want to do it even less. Like if her family's attitude was like, come whenever you feel like it and don't if you're not in the mood and, you know, I just want you to like, I want you to want to be here. I think she'd probably be there much more often.

And I feel like that's kind of almost, it feels like a paradox of, because in her mom, and I'm thinking about her mom. Her mom is probably like, oh, I want to, I want to feel like I have a close relationship with my daughter where we see each other all the time. So close. And it's like almost the idea of that is trying to make her force these interactions, which the other person isn't enjoying. But she's also, she's also trampling her boundaries.

The email writer has been clear and has honored how she feels. And now what she's getting is there is a certain amount of gaslighting happening. Like you're killing your mother. You're hurting your mother's feelings. Like this is all manipulation stuff. And the thing is the more impervious we are to the manipulation, the less it works. People stop doing it because you just don't react. So I think that I feel like maybe first stop on this person's train is doing what Naomi said.

Like, can you handle that? Or will the continued trying to change your mind make you become really resentful? But it only will be a period of time. Like there's no way it's going to go on forever. It's not. because it's just not the way the system works, you know? The closeness piece where maybe she could say to her mother, why is this so important to you? I want to feel close with you.

I want to have a good relationship with you. Is there another way that we can do that aside from me taking this hour ride once a week to come see you? Like I'm trying to do that by calling you. Maybe the conversations we're having don't make you feel close or is there something else that's making you feel like we're not as close as you'd like to be? maybe this isn't a place to reconnect. I don't know if the mother's capable of that type of conversation,

but at least trying to say you don't think so. I don't know. My vibe is that it's pretty base. Like it's pretty obvious like what the mom is doing. But if she hasn't had the honest conversation, we still have to consider these people sort of, you know, if you haven't had the honest conversation of how it's affecting you. Because I feel like people have a right to know how,

what's happening is impacting the relationship. I wonder would it make a difference if she said, mom, all these guilty text messages make me not want to come at all. It's such a bummer. Like, I don't want to feel that way. I love you. We talk once a week. Yeah.

I always think of like these kinds of things also when you have like a friend and maybe the friendship is more one-sided or, you know, the other person thinks of the, you know, that I'm happy to see you at a group gathering, but I don't really. want to have lunch with you every week. And so it's kind of the person has done nothing wrong, but the person asks constantly and then you're, you kind of feel, and it makes you feel guilty because you're setting a boundary of not seeing them when clearly they're like more interested. So I don't know. Do you have any feelings on that? I do. And that's such a great point because I can say it my therapy practice, people who have the biggest boundaries, I mean, my practice is

almost all women, but I have to say the boundaries within female friendships. and the codependency within female friendships is just off the hook. And that was me too in my life. Like I was definitely way more codependent with my girlfriends than I was any relationship I was ever in. So this is where Naomi's advice, I would take that advice, where the person is like, are you free for lunch? Let's do this.

I'm not. Like, just keep saying no, which is what I do in my life. If someone and I run into this, a lot, people either think. we're closer than we are or want us to be closer than we are. And I never used to do that. I mean, I start the book off telling a story that I was a bridesmaid eight times in my 20s. And I should have said no to four of those ugly dress experiences. But I couldn't, right? I was like, it's an honor. I don't want to hurt their feelings. And I'm thinking, I wouldn't even invite you to a housewarming party if I had a house. Like, how could I be one of your top four closest

people in your life. That's unbelievable. But instead of being honest, even though that would have been a hard conversation, I wouldn't have said it like that, of course. Instead, I was super resentful spending zillions of dollars on things, you know. Right. I really think this, for me, this is bringing up and we can, you know, maybe pursue it another time, but we talk so much or I talk a lot on the show about like relaxing into the discomfort that we have, whether it's anxiety or like even sadness, just kind of relaxing into it, letting it exist, seeing the emotion that's there. But so much of this is relaxing into other people being uncomfortable. How can I take a breath, calm my body when you are not pleased with me, when you are

disappointed with me, when you are making me feel like I'm doing something bad or being a bad person or being a bad friend, how can I just breathe and stay? stay calm and allow that to exist without needing to act immediately on it by changing my boundaries or dropping my boundaries to. Right. Or being defensive. Right. Or making them wrong.

Yes. And those things soothe me temporarily, right? Like, you know, being defensive soothes me temporarily, making it feel like you're, you're doing something bad by asking me, it soothes me. temporarily, but really what I need to do is just kind of wait and be patient, like you said, and the system will regulate to the new normal of, you don't love my boundary, but that's okay. Right, right. I think the whole visual of like relaxing into it and realizing why I bring, at the top of the

interview, we were talking about mindfulness briefly, and why I bring it into my therapy room. and why I have CDs and I'm on Insight Timer as a meditation teacher is because it was such a huge impact in my own life, where once I finally got it, Deepak Chopra is really who taught me, and David J. Usu taught me to meditate 20 years ago, I gained about three to three seconds of response time or reaction time. And so I went from being such a little Aries hothead to like hitting send on that email that I would then have to apologize for to being like, oh, hey, no, like I don't need to. It's not worth it. And being able to actually self-reflect. You know, what at Deepak talks about like the highest, right, becoming the observer without judgment of yourself is one of the highest states that you can get into because you've, can go, huh, that's interesting. Why am I so mad right now? Or why am I so scared right now? Why am I so worried about what my friend thinks right now? And we can soothe the inner child and we can

soothe ourselves. But the main thing is we can not take action. So now we go from reacting to mindful action, which are two totally different things. And they produce, I mean, mindful action will produce a much better result. It's hard to have hard conversations when we're taught to be people pleasers. I always say this, but it's true. Most of us were raised and praised to be self-abandoning codependence. That's it. So what we're learning and what you guys are talking about and teaching and sharing

and the same with my platform is stuff that nobody taught us. We didn't learn it at home and we didn't learn it at school, and I didn't even learn it in grad school. Like, these are old, this is life school that we're learning these things from. And how much better your life is on the other side of having functional, healthy boundaries, how much happier, how you can put it down. You know, I had this vision, Naomi, when you were talking about sort of sinking into it. In my vision, it's like putting it down.

My friend's disappointment. I can be a good friend. she can be disappointed in me. I can still be friends with her. So I'm putting her disappointment down because that's her side of the street. We can talk about it. We can do whatever, but it doesn't have to dictate my actions.

Just like Jordana, you were saying, if this person wants to have lunch with you every week. But you really don't. The best boundary there, if you don't want to say, hey, I think you think we're closer than we are because I'd like to see you once a month. That works for me, right? You may not want to say that. That seems too rude. I get it. I would pick better words if I were going to have the conversation. But nothing says, I'm not meeting you for lunch weekly,

like not meeting them for lunch weekly. And I mean, if they want to know why that is, I guess they can ask and then you can have that conversation, right? You can. And you can also say, I have other people in my life. this conversation with friends who wanted to be involved with everything that I did. I have other relationships. Please don't expect to be included in every single plan I ever make. I actually had so many questions about this that I created a mini course that's called the friendship breakthrough or breakup guide. Wow.

Literally. I love that. All about sometimes you just got to be like, oh, this friendship is over, right? Like, this no more. Because a lot of times we stay in friendships because we're like, you went to Hebrew school together, you went to, you know, middle school kindergarten together, whatever. You're like, it's like the historical handcuffs.

Yeah. But you really outgrew the person years ago. And it's an obligation. And we have enough of that with family, you know, like where if we're going to prioritize any obligatory relationships, it should probably be family and not a friend from kindergarten, you know. No, that's so true. I mean, I love everything you're talking about.

I just learned so much. Terry, thank you so much for coming on. Where can they find you? I assume Boundary Boss is available anywhere, books are sold. But where can they find you if they want to learn more about what you do with boundaries? All right. Well, first of all, I want to make sure whoever wants to take the quiz to figure out their archetypes and you guys have to do it, go to BoundaryQuiz.com.

Easy breezy. I actually, the book is available everywhere and pre-orders are happening right now, depending on when this comes out. But the workbook that goes along with Boundary Boss is coming out at the end of October, which is exciting. and I have courses and all the things. So where can you find me? Instagram.

I'm just at Terry Cole, which is T-E-R-R-R-I, C-O-L-E. And then my website is really where you'll find everything, Terry Cole.com. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm sure we'll need you back for other listener emails. Thank you so much. This was great. So nice to meet you.

Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Well, that was great. Let's get into our Betchesist email for the day. Do you want to read it? Yeah, I'll read this one. Okay. Hey, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, I love the show, love you up, and really appreciate the balance

the podcast bring to my life. I have a triggered scenario for you. Me and my three best friends have been huge Taylor Swift fans since 2006, tier drops on my guitar era, and have been to multiple concerts together. We're from Toronto, and you may know that Canada currently only has six shows all in Toronto and getting tickets was a nightmare. None of the four of us were able to get pre-sale code, but one of my friends, let's call her Betty, has a close guy friend, let's call him James, who managed to get a pre-sell

code and buy four tickets in the 100 level for 500 each, but only for the intentions of reselling them for thousands of dollars each. When she found this out, Betty asked James if he would sell them to us for face value and he said no. She told him that he was being selfish because she knows that his number one best friend who was unable to get tickets for himself and his wife are diehard and won't even consider selling to them either. They haven't spoken in about a month because Betty was so mad at him. Flash forward to now, James reached out to Betty asking if they can be friends again, and when Betty asked if he was still going to sell the tickets, he said yes. She made the case that he could even just sell his other friend and the friend's wife two tickets and hike up

the resale of the other two because it doesn't cost him anything to do a good deed for his friends. She's not even asking about our group anymore. Betty's debating, and, and he's debating, ended the whole friendship because of the principle of the fight and that he would choose making money over doing his friends a favor. James also tried to guilt trip Betty by saying, if I told you that my parents are going through financial hardship right now, would that change anything? But she knows that's not really why he's doing this. I told her I'd write into this podcast for you're unbiased. I don't know. I'm a big swiftly. I don't know if I'd say unbiased, but unbiased opinions. Dr. Naomi, I know you tried hard to get tickets and we're so lucky that they were real.

so maybe you're a little biased as a fellow Swifty. Thanks in advance for your thoughts because the group chat is raging, signed, scorned Swifty Betches. So I think the guy did nothing wrong. Nothing? Nothing. I don't think he did anything wrong. He never promised her these tickets.

He had a, like, first of all, it's not like this little indie band that she gave him the idea to like go buy and resell these tickets for it. This is Taylor Swift. Everyone knew it was happening. It's a big thing. He clearly did some research that was like a, This was like a money-making intention he had. If he was making money in any other way,

would she ask him to give it to her to, like, help her out? I almost feel like this is just like a societal community doing the right thing type situation. Like Taylor Swift and hopefully other artists are trying to do this in a way where they can get the music to the people that really care versus being a money-making. machine for other people that aren't even performing or singing or doing anything. Well, let them, well, then it's like he's not going to fix the societal issue, which is that he

was able to get the tickets and resell them. That's not his problem. Like, I don't think that's his fault. He's working within the system that exists. And there are a million people who wanted Taylor Swift tickets. That's why he can get so much money for them. She's not like the only person who really likes Taylor Swift tickets. Like, I think the idea, I think if he gave him to her, it would be really nice and it would be like really cool and awesome thing that he did. But I think the idea that she thinks that he's expected to give it to her. It's an expectation on her behalf that he got these tickets and then he's supposed to just give them to her is extremely entitled and like kind of crazy. No, I agree. I don't think it's about him giving them to her. It's almost like if you went to a restaurant

for your whole life and just said, you know what? I could make probably 50 grand if I never left a tip. If I just every time I went to a restaurant for the rest of my life, I said, you know what? I paid for my food. And that's what I paid for. And I'm never going to leave a tip to anyone. We would all probably have a huge amount of money if we took all that money and put it into an account. But it's just the right thing to do to. I don't think it's the same. I mean, maybe that's not the best example, but there's these things that we do as a society that are kind of the right thing to do, which I think is not getting a pre-sale code designed for fans and then using it to make money. That's not why that pre-sell code was designed. You're being sketchy. You're playing

the system. And that, I think, is uncool. I don't think he needed to give her and her friends the tickets. I don't think he needed to give the tickets to anyone. But I think the fact that he's like taking something, if it wasn't for that, they would all just be sold on Ticketmaster for however much they were sold and all these bots would get it and do what he's doing. So, but if he didn't do it, someone else is going to do it. Right. So does that make it right? I don't know.

That's not illegal. No, it's not illegal. Neither is not leaving a tip. Neither is like, you know. But not leaving a tip is like a almost like an aggressive act against someone, right? Whereas this is not personal to these people to like, there's no one victim there. Like the waiter is like jipping the waiter of like his meat. means in America, that's like their means of the money that they're making is from that.

And that's widely known and that's widely accepted. With Taylor Swift tickets, it's like some, someone who wants to go, who can't go, can't afford to go. Like, that's not, he's not individually targeting anyone. And someone else who could buy it that wouldn't be him buying it would probably be doing the same thing. Would you do it? Would you get a pre-sell code just to resell the tickets to somebody else?

wouldn't because I don't know how. And I like, it's just not nice. I agree it's not like, I wouldn't say it's like the classiest thing to do. I don't think it's like. You know what it is? Can I say what it's like? It's like people that go a Christmas time and buy up all the Legos in July. Buy up all the Legos on Amazon in July so they can resell them for three times the price

at Christmas time to parents that are looking to buy Lego sets for their kids. It's just not the nicest thing to do. Yes, you can make some money. Could you call it a business? Sure. But I just, I don't think he needed to give them the tickets. But I think anyone that's like realizing that there's like a plan happening here to allow fans to enjoy a concert and getting in there and like trying to throw a wrench in the plan,

which is let's get people who are really going to enjoy this show. into the show for a reasonable price so that, you know, people can just have that moment of experiencing that and experiencing the joy of that. And he's like, yeah, no, I'd rather just have a bunch of money in a way that's kind of like cheating the system. I'll give it to you that it's a little scummy of a way to make money. It's not like the noblest thing to do. It's not the like sweetest way to make money. I might be a little turned off. I went on a date with someone who was telling me they were doing that. But if you changed the scenario to he bought the tickets looking for someone to go with,

decided after he got them that he didn't really care that much and then sold them and wanted to sell them for as much money as he could get. I don't know. Yeah, I guess. I don't love it. And maybe part of it is because I do like Taylor Swift. And I like the fact that she's trying to do something to get like her real fans in the audience instead of and not having to have people only the richest people.

Like that's what I think the issue is. I wish her luck in that. I think that would be great if she could find a way to enforce that. To me, this is like the issue of the putting your seat back on the airplane. It's like just because that gives the person behind you less room, right? If you wanted to be really nice, you could give the person behind you more room and keep the seat up.

But that's not how the plane is made. The plane is made to give you that option to do that. And if Taylor Swift can reinvent the ticket selling system to make it so that that it's not about money, like I think that's awesome. If she could do that, that would be great, but she hasn't done that yet. I know. She's trying. I give her credit because I think it's sort of like it shouldn't just be the, I guess that's

how our world works. The richest people get the best stuff. So the richest people get to go see Taylor Swift and the people that are sitting there listening and know all the lyrics. They're just going to keep listening on Spotify. I mean, I had a whole, I had a friend. tell me this yesterday, she saw a billboard about a campaign about not having children because, you know, it's taking up the resources and it's destroying the planet. It's like, this isn't

the person who's deciding to have kids' problem to figure out how the carbon footprint of their children. Like that is not, they're not going to solve the issue by not having kids. Yeah. To me, it's like, I don't know. I get it. I get your perspective. I don't think you're crazy. But I will say this. I think there's, I think that Olivia Rodriguez, is chasing Taylor Swift's coattails here. I love her new album. I'm kind of obsessed with the fact that she's 20 years old and she has, she has the same thing that I love about Taylor Swift.

Like she puts these emotional experiences into words and music so beautifully. And I'm like, you know, 25 years older than her and I'm into it. She's great. I love it. So how much are Olivia Rodriguez tickets? Maybe we could just all go see her and see her. Yeah. They're probably really expensive too.

A different ticket. Or it's like, you know what I mean? And again, I understand why it would be like frustrating if you had a friend who had these tickets and could have sold them to you for that amount. But I wouldn't feel entitled to it. Yeah. I would ask. I would ask them maybe to do me a favor.

I'm a huge fan. But I would also understand that if they said no, that I wouldn't think it was like owed to me. Yeah. I don't think it's, I don't think it's friendship ending. it's a moral code issue, right? So it's almost like, would you end a friendship with someone who cheated on their boyfriend

or their girlfriend? Would you end a friendship? I don't think it's as bad as that. I don't know. Maybe it's not as bad as that. I'm joking. But I just, I really don't like it. I don't like it.

But I don't think it's friendship ending. I will say that. Okay. Well, I have not done this. Again, I think mostly because I, wouldn't know the first thing about how to figure out how to do it. I feel like it's like the scammers. It's almost like the same thing.

It's not a scam. It's, but it's like, it's not a scam, but it's just like you're, that's not a good. Like, whenever I get one of these scammers, I'm like, is this the best way you could come up with to make money? Like, is this. That is, a real scammer is like doing something deceptive. There's nothing like deceptive. Yes, it is deceptive because he's pretending to be a Taylor Swift fan by going and, using a code and getting the tickets.

I don't know how you get the codes. You have to be like part of a Taylor Swift fan club or like sign up for her, you know, alerts or whatever. He's pretending to be a fan. Maybe he is a fan, but he's not a fan enough to want to spend $500 on the ticket. All right. We could sort of agree to disagree on this one. You guys can write in and give your take a letter to the editor about which way you think.

I guess I'm a cold-blooded, um, capital. list. But I think if he gave it to them, that would have been like a proactively nice move. But I don't think it's, you know, she has the right to like say what he can and cannot do with them. Anyway. Yeah. Karma.

Listen to it. Yeah. Fair. Okay. Triggered. Let's do some triggers. I'll read the first one. Hi.

Hi. I love the podcast. I've been binging the episodes and find your perspectives. really grounding and relatable. I have a triggered scenario and could use some advice. My cousin, who I'm really close to, is a social butterfly. Meanwhile, I'm an introvert who doesn't have many friends. I know I have some trauma from my past, losing toxic friendships, and now only have a few people I can call friends. But they all live far away. Even my one local friend who is 15 minutes from me is pretty popular and always seems too busy with other plans in her life to hang out whenever I reach out to her.

Since my cousin lives in the city and I live about 45 minutes away, she will reach out to me to hang out in the city and or near her apartment. I don't mind this sometimes, but it seems more like a convenience thing since she makes excuses to not travel far from her area or come over to where I am. Here's why I'm triggered. Yesterday, I texted my cousin group chat that I was exhausted from work and said, good night, L.O.L. at 5 p.m. then today my cousin texted our cousin group chat that she and her boyfriend were in my area last night to have dinner at a new restaurant and that it was so good etc i flipped out and asked why she didn't invite me considering she's never over here to what she pointed out the good night text i sent saying she didn't want to bother me how triggered should i be is it really my fault for texting

goodnight when she didn't ask me to join i feel like that's a cop-out excuse and i'm not sure if she actually wanted to text me to join join her isn't being truthful and is using my text as an excuse used to not invite me help rejected lonely betch yeah i think when you text goodnight speaking of boundaries i i do think that's sort of a signal of like i'm out for the night like right i'm done volunteering that right yeah i think that some people would use that as a way of setting a boundary of like i'm not going out i don't even probably want to talk i'm doing my own thing tonight good night 5 p.m yeah i think if you wouldn't have sent that, I do think she probably would have texted you

for this thing if she was in your neighborhood. And if she didn't, I could see being a little bit more upset if you didn't send that text and you found out she was in your neighborhood and didn't say anything. But also, again, like to bring it back to our original boundary conversation

earlier in the episode with Terry Cole, if she didn't want to see you in the neighborhood, like, then I'd, that doesn't make her a monster. Right. I do think that, you know, and I feel bad because I think in general she's feeling excluded and lonely and like wanting more social interaction and wanting more friends. So I definitely feel for you.

I don't, I think this particular episode is a symptom of your general insecurity about your friendships. So I would, I would rate it low because I do think it's kind of your own. stuff that's coming out. But yeah, I do, I think it could be the fact that she was in your neighborhood and she just also didn't want to get, get dinner or didn't want to include you. And that does hurt feelings. Like it's funny. We had the whole boundary conversation, but on the flip side of it is sort of this idea of like, what are the boundaries on the other side of the relationship? You know, like I don't want to see you when, even when I'm in your neighborhood. And I also don't like I, you know,

maybe I want to get together once every six months and someone kind of being like, well, my boundary is that that's not really a friendship. Like that doesn't feel like a friendship to me. And do you find a compromise there? Or do you just say, well, my boundary is six months. My boundaries, you know, once a month. Sorry, this isn't meshing up. It's over. Yeah. I think this kind of thing, I totally agree. I think that's sort of the tricky part of boundaries where it's like if the other, well, I guess you could say if the other person's boundaries aren't enough aren't correct for you, then maybe you shouldn't be friends, right? If you are, they're too far apart on them and you're not really, either of you are willing to go to the other one's side or come in between, then maybe it's not going to work.

Right. But I mean, with this person, yeah, I think I, I feel bad and also because it's sort of indicative to me of how these kinds of situations can become self-fulfilling prophecies, where she in her head is like, I feel lonely or I feel like no one wants to hang out. out with me. And then something like this happens. And then almost like the girl's mom in the first email where she's kind of like making her feel guilty. And, you know, she's asking, why didn't you were in the neighborhood? Why didn't you come? And then it makes the person want to have more distance. Yes. Sometimes. So I'm glad you brought that up. I think a good thing here, it's not about this one incident. I think the bigger picture is she's feeling lonely. She's feeling like all her other friends have

so many other friends. So I do wonder what it would feel like for her to be vulnerable. This is the test of the friendship. I don't think the test of the friendship is like how often necessarily do we get together, although I think that plays a part in it. I think the test of the friendship is either one, whether it's the cousin or this other friend that is quote unquote popular, I think she wrote and has a lot of friends with a lot of plans with other friends. maybe she could say to that friend, hey, I'm having trouble like making friends. I'm feeling a little lonely. If you have any plans and you could include me, it would really mean a lot. Maybe I can meet some of your friends or just kind of get out there a little bit more. And then she wouldn't just feel like she keeps like

asking and then getting rejected because, you know, I guess it would be nice if the friend just offered to include her. I think that would be great. I mean, I talk to my girls about being inclusive all the time. And I think that works for women in their 20s and 30s as well. Like it's nice to include someone. I know at first it might feel a little awkward like, oh, these friends don't necessarily go with these friends. But I think it's a really kind thing to do to, you know, try to include people if you can. But she might have to ask for that and say, hey, you know, I know you're doing this. Not not necessarily, it doesn't have to be tonight. But maybe down the road, if you have a plan that you think I would enjoy, I'd really appreciate the invite. So she doesn't feel like she's just kind of waiting around being lonely. Her friend's not

knowing exactly what she's going through. If that's a friend, I think it's reasonable to share that. Yeah. No, I agree with that. I think that's a good, that's a good way to kind of tackle this sort of issue. I would give this one because she said, good night. I'm exhausted at 5 p.m. Yeah, I give it like a two. I'd give it like a two also. All right. Let's do one more. All right. All right. All right. I love this one. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, a huge fan of the podcast and all Betches podcast. Thanks for all that you do. I have a triggered scenario for you guys.

I love to get my Grande Ice Coffee from Starbucks in a Venty Cup because I just love ice. Jordana, I know you do the same. It's just better, right? It is. I have to say, it is better. Anyway, I was, I don't know if you, I've ever talked about this on this show, but my move is to get a Grande Ice coffee in a Venty Cup with extra ice because I like it to be. very cold, but if you get a grande with extra ice, then you get like absolutely no coffee.

Yes. So you want the same amount of coffee with extra ice. Got it. Yeah. Exactly. And nice is free. Yeah. Anyway, I was in the drive-thru today picking up my mobile order. It was several minutes past when it said it would be ready and the place wasn't busy, but I think they just forgot, which I was actually fine with. Even though my kids were yelling at me in the back, I was super nice when the barista was apologizing for the wait. Here's the part that triggered me. The guy who was making my drink, who was mostly just flirting with his co-worker, it was probably the reason my drink was forgotten, said loudly, I hate when people get grande drinks in a venty cup.

Ugh, so annoying. Right in front of me. I don't think he realized that I was already at the window. I was shocked. I said to the nice girl at the window that I heard him say that and I explained that I'm not trying to get free coffee. I just really like ice. She looked shocked and told me not to worry about him.

I ended up crying while waiting for my drink. I should mention that I'm pregnant. So I'm pretty sure that's why I cried, probably why I was so triggered, L.L. I won't be offended if you give it this a one or a two. But I was at a seven or eight in the moment. Jordana, what would you do if you heard this comment when you got your usual drink? Like, it's just adding an extra scoop or two of ice. It's not even complicated.

Oh, I was so mad. Thanks for letting me vent. Love you guys. An icy batch. You know, I am actually very impressed that she let them know that she heard it. I think that was a cool move, you know, like just so you know, I heard that. And I didn't like the way it felt. And if you want to talk shit, do it more quietly next time, which would have made this a whole moot point. Look, on the grand scheme of things, I don't think this is a big deal. This is just like what we talked about, right? Being able to tolerate that other people might not like things you're doing or saying or, you know, she's setting her boundary. Her boundary is. she likes her coffee with lots of ice and she's paying for it so she's going to get it. I, you know, so I don't think in the grand scheme of things.

Well, that's, well, that's her preference. But Starbucks has allowed that order option. Yes. That's an option you can do in the mobile app. I do it daily. Oh, you can do it in the mobile app. I do it in the mobile app. Yeah.

That is a different story. I didn't know that. You can, there's a specific, it's not a verbal thing that, like an exception that you have to do. No, I like build my own order and I do it in the mobile app and that makes it slightly more triggering. I didn't realize that. I thought it was kind of like, oh, she asked them. No. I'm going to know that anytime anyone does that. My kids like to do that too because they're like, I want the proper amount of drink. I'll show you how to do it. Yeah, maybe they got that from you. I want the proper amount of drink that I'm paying for, but I also wanted to be like very icy and cold. Reasonable.

but I always thought it was like, you know, like ordering the thing on the menu and taking off half the things on the dish and just being annoying. But if they're allowing that as part of their system. No, that's how it prints on the thing. It's from the mobile order. It says that exact thing. And if they don't want you to do that, then they should not allow it, just like the Taylor Swift tickets.

But they do. And so I can understand why someone might, it's slightly more complicated order. and if you're doing, if you're working and your job is a little monotonous, you're maybe a little more annoyed, but I think it would spice things up. And I think, again, I think he was maybe just complaining to complain because I don't think it's that hard. So he was trying to start conversation maybe with this girl that he was trying to flirt with or a person he was trying to flirt with or whatever it was. Yeah. So I wouldn't take it personally. Tons of people do it. Keep on doing it. I don't think it's a big deal. Do you think I'm stealing from Starbucks? No, because you're, no, but you're, but you're,

You know what? I just had a really good idea. Taylor Swift should have a thing where if you want to get the pre-sale code, you have to like click on like five songs. Like let's say she puts a list of 10 songs. Yeah, quick. Which ones are Taylor Swift songs and you have to quickly click, click, click, click, click. And if you get it wrong, you're out and you have to come back in with a new email address. That's a great idea. A way to tell if someone's a real fan before they get the code. It sounds like you're very passionate about that. this. Maybe you can administer it. You're like, I'll make it.

I'll make it. You know who would love to make it. Maddie is actually obsessed. She makes these cute little like Taylor Swift slide shows and she put so cute. You know, they make those spinning wheels like where you could put whatever you want in it. Like we'll sometimes use it for like if we're going to get dessert that night. We'll put like ice cream, cookies, whatever. And then you spin the wheel and whatever it comes out as it comes out.

So she sat there. It was so cute, like for an hour and typed every Taylor Swift song into one of these spinning wheels because she made this quiz of like which Taylor Swift song are you. And then someone can like click the spinning wheel. And then so she deserves to be at that show.

She spent an hour writing all the Taylor Swift songs onto this little slideshow. What am I a little cutie? Yeah, I mean, she went to the show. It's true, but we barely got to sit down. But we did go to the show. Anyway, I dream of a world in which only the fiercest Taylor Swift fans can get tickets. Do you?

That would be a lovely world. No, I think that would be great. But while the world is the way it is, I'm going to live in the world that I live in. Right. And if it's on the mobile app and you can order your coffee the way you want it, you deserve that coffee extra ice. Exactly. Don't let it get to you.

I'd give this also a two. Even as someone, I would be like annoyed that they said it. Yes. But I also wouldn't take it personally, but I get if she's pregnant, like she's just feeling like guilty probably or like she's ashamed that she does this order. Perfect chance for her to tolerate other people being uncomfortable. That's a big thing for a lot of people. Tolerate your own discomfort and tolerate other people's discomfort.

Love it. And that's the theme of this episode. Thank you guys so much for listening. We'll be back next week. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morelas Picoe, and Rebecca Sous MacKow. Editing by Basilio Perez.

Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to Oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches.