Oversharing - Is Companionship Enough To Stay In A Marriage?

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

Today on Oversharing, Jordana tells Dr. Naomi about her cathartic axe-throwing experience, and Dr. Naomi talks about the benefits of releasing pent up emotional energy. Our Overshare comes from a Betch experiencing a reverse coming out and struggling to find a way to tell her wife. Today’s Betchicist goes out to a listener who learned a secret about her mother-in-law and can’t decide whether she should tell her husband. Dr. Naomi writes an intention for getting away from negative self-talk. And we’re feeling triggered by nosy family members and presumptuous in-laws. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And we are back fresh Monday morning recording.

I have to come out next Tuesday. Yes. All right. What's going on? Just getting my bearings. I had a nice weekend. On Friday night, I went to this place. It was called like New York Axe something.

And basically it's like an axe throwing. Oh, yeah. I've never done that, but I've seen them around. Yeah. They have like all those kind of like funny like sort of date night kind of things like axe throwing or like destroy the room or like. Oh, I love the I love those like an active. date, like where you're doing something.

Yeah. So we did it as like a double date with my friend and her husband. And it was kind of, it was, it was fun. I had a bad week last week. And it was kind of nice to have like some place to channel my rage a little bit. I mean, the concept is it's sort of like a dart. It's sort of like darts, but instead of a dart, you have like an axe.

And they like teach you how to throw. I'm sure the insurance on this place is crazy. Oh my gosh. And you have like your own, it's almost like bowling meets darts. Like you have your own like lane and everyone gets like their score. And then they project like on a projector,

this like dart board of sorts that keeps changing. And you see how many points you can get by throwing yes. So you were actually able to get the, the blade into the target at all. Yeah. I wouldn't even think I could even do it. I wouldn't. You could probably do it better.

I didn't think I would be able to do it either. But like they do, they have someone there probably to me. make sure you don't hurt yourself and to kind of show you how to do it with some force. And yeah, it felt great when you got it. It's kind of weird. It like tumbles through the air and then it like hits the dartboard or whatever it is. I was going to say once it, like the first time that you threw it and it actually like stuck,

you probably felt like such a mountain woman like you were like. I was like very impressive. It does make you, like, get a little self-esteem jolt. Yes, like empowering. Yeah. But I was thinking about those things, and it's like, I thought I'd ask you, as a psychologist, like, is it healthy to have, like, you know, people have that with like the punching, like literal punching bags, people do like boxing or like things like that.

Like, is that an actually healthy way to, like, move your, your rage or your intense feelings, like, into a physical activity? or is that kind of more of an avoiding of like the mental processing and a quick fix? Right. It's actually really interesting. I think the research shows, for any of you out there, I think I learned about this study like early in like, you know, intro to psych. And I forget what it was, but it was like they had these kids that were, they gave them like a punching, like a clown punching bag or something to punch when they were angry to see if like, like punching something when they were mad, made them feel better. And it actually was not helpful.

Like it in some ways it like stirred up that like aggression impulse and kind of brought it to the surface. But that being said, I think that if you're in the moment, you're in the flow, you're in the zone of anything. Like you weren't actually trying to hurt someone. Or you weren't fantasizing, I don't think, unless you were, about her. hurting someone. I wasn't fantasizing about hurting someone, but I definitely like envisioned the object of like, and it's not even a someone,

I think it's like a something. Like I envisioned like the thing that was really bothering me at like. And I actually found that's when I was more successful. When I like, you know, I had like more passionate, like throw. I did actually like,

and again, it's not like a person, but it's like the thing that was bothering. me, whatever physical representation of it, I kind of conjured, I did picture something. Right. No, but I think what's beneficial is like I think that there is this emotional energy and I even kind of like as I'm speaking it, I like, and I speak about that all the time. Like you feel emotions in your body. Like if you're upset, you're never like my, I feel my upsetness in my toe or my foot. You just don't. You know it's in your torso somewhere.

Like it's in your chest heart or your throat area. It's like that's because you feel that energy that's building in there. So I do think there is something really beneficial of like we talk about releasing the energy, like kind of relaxing and allowing. And I think that allowing can also be in that physical form that you were feeling. And I like that it's kind of like I picture if you're ax throwing in a therapeutic way, it's not going to be this like limp noodle, like soft throw. Like when you were sort of like really flowing

and like releasing that negative energy, you were like throwing it. It sounds like from what you're saying, like putting some power behind it and like just allowing yourself not to be constrained by like how it looked maybe in that moment. Like not thinking about like, oh, like maybe I, maybe it's too masculine if I like really go at it or you were just like going at it and like feeling that release of of that energy. So I mean, the proof is in the pudding. Did it make you feel better in the moment?

Did it make you feel a little better afterwards? Neither. Right. Definitely in the moment, maybe a little bit afterwards. I kind of do agree there's like a pent-up energy that it is nice to have go somewhere. And again, I guess like on a meta level, you think about like the general population, is it a slippery slope of like, are we encouraging like violence to get out aggressions? I don't know, maybe. And like for someone less mentally evolved for a kid, I don't know if I would like do that as like a a training thing for them. But for an adult who knows, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think because of this, I'm going to like start throwing knives

at people that are around me to make myself feel better at this point in my life. No, but I totally, I think that there is, we as evolved humans are so constrained by society that there is this big emotional energy that has nowhere to go

because other than like wailing and crying, which is even like kind of societally acceptable. Yeah, like you're like hysteria or something. We have the urge for these things. Like I talk with a lot of my patients about neurodynamic breathwork. I don't know if we've ever talked about it,

me and you, but we should if we hadn't. But long story short, we can talk about it at length another time. But it's basically like a breathwork technique that kind of like quiets your mind. It's like very deep breathing. and you listen to it paired with like tribal music.

And it's designed to exactly what this type of thing is, like pull out your emotional energy. And when people experience this or go through this and I've tried it myself, you should do it by yourself in a place where no one's watching because it will pull up these like physical expressions of emotion. Like some people will laugh, some people will cry, Some people will like rock back and forth or roll around or I think we as humans have this capacity to really excrete this negative energy, but we're so constrained that we don't do it. So now we find like an axe throwing date night and that's your way of doing that, which I happen to think is great or like a smash room, which I've never tried, which sounds kind of cool.

But we do need this energy to come up and out. And if it's not like sports or exercise or crying, which we've talked about a million times, it's hard to find the pathway for that. So I think this sounds pretty cool. Yeah. I liked it. No regrets.

Do you ever see Fleischman's in trouble? No, but I've heard, but I've been recommended that. Yeah, you should definitely see it. I think it's like a great psychological show. But there is a part where, like, Claire Danes' character goes to, a kind of retreat and she does this they'd have her do this

like screaming exercise where she's just like supposed to scream for like five minutes which was like and you know she's really great at playing that kind of character

who's like sort of losing it yes oh my gosh even just watching it is kind of scary like to watch someone in like a super unhinged physical like watching her scream

on the thing just as a viewer was like made uncomfortable Totally, which is why people can't express themselves in that way, because we do realize that it gives other people that scary vibe and we're so socially in tune of not wanting people to think we're crazy or to push us to the edge of the tribe or to like, you know, ostracize us that we don't do it because we're aware as humans that it's a very intense, scary feeling. The only time it's like semi acceptable is if somebody dies, then it's like kind of okay to, completely lose your shit and throw your body on the floor and like wail and cry. But I feel like humans have the urge to do that at other times as well. And even in death, people probably feel afraid of being judged if they express their grief in that way.

So I love the idea of like expressing grief or intense emotions physically in some way, as long as you're not hurting anyone. And it's not about like I'm fantasizing on like hurting someone that I think if I hurt this person, my life will be better. You know, like that's the part that makes it feel like you're practicing, like controlling some external factor that's going to make you feel better when that's not really the point of it. The point of it is to release your own negative energy and take responsibility for your own body and mind and energetic field. So do you think it's unhealthy to even to like picture? like, let's say you lost your job and you're picturing like... Your boss or whoever fired you.

Your boss, that seems like the most unhealthy, but like, I don't know, just like the work, I don't know, the email, the memo, whatever. No, I don't know. Like, is it if it's a person, it's like, could you, I don't know? No, I guess it could be a version of like releasing that thing that's no longer in your life and accepting it's really like a grief thing. You know, it's like I'm releasing. this thing that's no longer in my life,

we're not in my life right now, whatever it is, the job or the, you know, the boyfriend or whatever. But I think if it has this connotation of like, if this person was dead, then I would feel better. That's different level for sure. Okay, so as long as it's not that.

Yeah, I think it's okay. And it's just like, I think whatever pulls that emotion out of you, because I always say like, okay, cry, but some people crying is not that easy or it doesn't come that naturally or it's just not happening or you've done enough of it and it doesn't seem like it's working. You might need something like a little bit more high energy. So I love it. I think

it's great. I think it was a good way for you to probably like shed your bad week. Right. I agree. Yeah. I mean, check out neurodynamic breathwork. If you guys are, any of you listeners out there are feeling like they're stuck emotions, which I get a lot. People just are like, I know there's something in there brewing underneath the surface and I just can't seem to release it. So what do we do if we can't release it? We have anxiety. We think about it a lot. We ruminate. We strategize. We plan. We are fearful. Right. Which makes it bigger probably. Yeah, exactly. Well, I love that. Or you can join one of Dr. Naomi's groups and get it out that way. Totally. Release that energy. Yes. Where do they find We do a lot of that.

Come to my website, Naomi Bernstein.com. I have all the information about groups. You can fill out a form to get matched with the best group for you. And yeah, we do all of this stuff. It's like recognizing in session. Like when we're in a session and somebody gets emotional about something, we really, a lot of times try to pause instead of getting all heady and intellectual about whatever they're talking about, when I see that emotion.

coming up, I'll just pause, and we all kind of like sit in that emotion with that person and there's such power in community healing like that and just let that person be like, okay, this emotion is here, I'm just going to sit in it and feel it, especially when you're in a group of people. It's really, really different, powerful way of experience emotion, experiencing emotion instead of what we usually do, which is just start planning and ruminating and Googling and calling 15 friends and repeating the same story 100 times. Yeah, that sounds like a much healthier way to deal.

So Naomi Burns team.com. Yes, and if you love the show and you want to support the show, you can join one of the groups, you can leave a review. We love the reviews. I've just noticed on Spotify, and you can now write comments in for each episode. you can come on in each episode. Oh, yeah. Talk to us.

I took a little look, and it seems like you guys really appreciated the, if you look on Spotify, we made our politics meditation free for all people, not just subscribers, and you guys seem to really be benefiting from that. So if you haven't listened, usually it's behind a paywall. It's our subscription. That's another way to support the show, subscribe. You get it all the episodes ad free, and you get two meditations a month. But yeah, comment on the Spotify.

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So I'm excited to start talking about it. Yes. Let's get into them. to unpack this week. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, thank you for all your podcast and advice you share. Look forward to every week to hearing new episodes and I'm excited to see what topics are discussed. I'm writing in about an issue that I don't love talking about out loud because it makes me feel pretty crappy. I female have been with my wife for 10 years, married for five. She's one of my best friends. But the problem is, that's basically all we are is friends. We hang out and do things

together and enjoy each other's company, but there's no physical connection or relationship spark. To be honest, there hasn't been for a while, but we still enjoy being around each other. Lately, I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think that I'm not as interested in being with a woman as I once was. This is something I'm battling with because I've identified as being gay and having a female partner for most of my adult life, and now I feel I'm having like a reverse coming out. Or almost being that stereotype of, it's just a phase. I hate that I have done this to her, her family, and our friends, but I also feel like I'm not fulfilled in this relationship. Sometimes I ask myself, though, why isn't companionship or friendship enough in a relationship?

We've had some conversations about this, and even though I haven't explicitly said this to her, I think she knows. We also have found a couple's counselor to meet with. Any advice you have for battling these thoughts and feelings would be appreciated. Sincerely, a betch coming out again. All right. I think. I wish that we could talk to her. I have so many questions about the nuances of this situation. The first one is around the sexuality piece, like, is it that she is actually wanting to see what it's like to be with a man, or is this more just about a disconnection with her wife? So that's the part that I'm not sure about. If it, it does sound like it's around her sexuality in some regards, but she doesn't specifically

mention that. Whenever a couple comes in and there's like loss of spark, like romance, sexual attraction, this type of thing, I do check in oftentimes. on the emotional connection first. Because a lot of times if you're not connecting emotionally, it can really affect the physical piece of things. So my first question to her would be also, she said she's been feeling like this for a while. So one thing that I would throw out there,

and I think she's on the right track, they're going to couples therapy, and she's mentioned it to her, is I think that her wife needs to be a bigger part of this identity exploration together. Okay. Which is, I get it. It's really hard.

It's potentially offensive. It's potentially marriage ending. So I could see why she doesn't want to do that with her. But I do think that dealing with it by herself, perhaps for years, it sounds like, can be just creating a huge disconnect. Like you're going through this whole sexual identity crisis thing, whatever you want to call it, or just experiencing maybe your sexual fluidity, but not sharing it with the wife, is probably making her feel even more distant and disconnected. Right. And then maybe causes her to dig into this feeling of like being detached and then like that becomes an even bigger thing.

But I can understand why she doesn't want to mention it because I can see why she's like if I say it. And because, you know, there's the, I feel like so many things have such a stigma to them that it, it's hard to make it feel like an exploration just even by mentioning it doesn't feel like an ex because it comes with a whole host of other things that feel really intense. And you know, you find that around certain words just like in the English language. Like they come with a whole host of other things that feel really intense when sometimes they're not even so. Like someone could have, for example, someone can have a cancer that's like sort of like a, from what I've heard. Like you can have a cancer that's sort of just like a treatable like non, not necessarily very intense like extremely high success rate thing. But the word of that feels like comes with all these other connotations of like. death and fear and all these other things,

which might not even be the case. And I think with her, with like the language around her sexuality of straight, gay, just even mentioning that there's a chance she feels like she could be straight or even just saying straight probably feels like, my whole life is a lie or something like that. Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

That's a great point. It's true. And I think that's a lot of how she's feeling is like she talks about this whole, like, I don't want to fall into the stereotype of it's just a phase. You know, like somehow she feels like the fact that she's questioning or thinking or fantasizing or whatever's happening, now she's like, you know, has to justify the last 10 years of her life to somebody. Right. Or it would render it meaningless. Right. By admitting this. Yeah. So I think that's great advice. I would at first just like take the power out of any of these, you know, fears of judgment or like the, you know, like, you know, like, you.

You said the words, you know, questioning my sexuality or it's just a phase or whatever comes up that feels like it has so much power within the words. I totally agree. I think that's a great place to start. And that's going to help her do the other thing, which is just like talk to her wife, which is going to be hard because the wife is going to have a lot of feelings around this. So now you're going to be dealing with your own feelings and you're going to be dealing with her feelings, not just of losing potentially the marriage, but rejection.

So I totally, I get that, but I do think the truth can bring you closer. I've seen this happen with a lot of couples where one person is kind of having these little doubts about the relationship and is so afraid of hurting the other person that they just don't say anything and it just starts to erode the relationship because you're having this very separate experience about the relationship, which the same way when you have like a shared experience about the relationship, it brings you closer. When you have a separate experience about your relationship, I think it can really disconnect. Right. And then again, if you let it go, if you let it sort of fester and become its own thing silently, then when you tell the other person,

it's like, oh, I think I'm straight and I'm leaving. Yes. Which can feel very blindsiting and even more hurtful as opposed to I'm starting to have these feelings. Here is my fear. Let's like see if we can work through it. And then even if you can't, I think there's still a sense of like we came to this decision together. Yes. Instead of, you know, I brought you this thing that we have never discussed and like all of a sudden my entire life is changing.

Yes, totally. Like doing it on your own until you can't take it anymore and then like dropping a bomb on the table, I think is definitely not the way to go. And I'm glad that you're starting this conversation. And it is going to be hard. and there are probably going to be tears, and she is probably going to feel sad and rejected

and her family and all that. But you can do this. You can breathe. You'll be okay. You can sit in the intense emotion, and it is going to be intense. But I think if you handle it in this way, you have a potential, I think, of maybe reconnecting.

Even if you try to have a marriage, you know, people have all sorts of different types of marriages. Maybe you do want to, you know, experiment with being with a man and see if that is something that you want to do and you can open up to your wife about that or however you guys want to handle it, but I think being really open about it is the only pathway to figuring it out together

versus you just like holding this in and then saying, you know, I'm out. So I'm glad that you're doing the therapy and I think the other question that she poses, which is, you know, I ask myself why isn't companionship or friendship enough in a relationship? And I do think some people get to the point where they've lost some type of that romantic spark,

and they do have this dilemma. Like, this is my best friend. We have a life together. Like, can that be enough? Right. And I'm sure for some people it is. Yeah. Like, I think it's, you know what I mean?

To say like that's right or wrong, I think it depends on your own personal needs. Yeah. Like what are your needs for like, you know, a more sexual relationship or what are your needs for a more like, because I don't think everyone's needs are the same in that way, I think to say that the balance of companionship versus like passion is the same for everyone.

Everyone has the same balance that they want is sort of like a one size fits all approach to relationships, which isn't really the case. Totally. Totally. And I think there are, in our culture, there is this narrative of like,

there's, you know, if you're not having enough sex, then like your marriage is never going to work. Or if you're not having sex, your marriage is never going to work. And I'm on the inside. of marriages, and I see that there are seasons of marriages, and there are marriages that

where they don't have sex for a year, and then they come back and they start having sex again, and then it goes away, and then it comes back, or maybe it goes away and never comes back, but they value the, like she's saying, the companionship and the relationship, and neither one of them, I think the key issue is if you're craving sex with someone else, Right. That's a problem. Right. If you're in a monogamous relationship with someone you don't want to have sex with and you're craving sex with other people, that's when it becomes a problem. But long story short, if you're communicating where you're at, what your needs are, how they're getting met or not met. But it does sound like you're feeling a craving for something more than just the companionship. Because if that's the case, you can have the companionship and the friendship and then go sleep with wherever you want. Right. Yeah, that, that, I mean, it seems to be an issue for, I think all that matters is that it's an issue for, it's not like, oh, should we all be able to be okay with just companionship? It's more like, are you personally okay? I think is the question to ask, not like what is societally acceptable? It's like what is acceptable to you? And it doesn't sound like the companionship is enough for her. Yes. Or she wouldn't be writing this email. Yes, yes. Or I mean, it could be just kind of like it's people say it's not healthy and it's not okay. Is that, is that the case? I mean, I do think she probably wants something else. And I mean, I'd venture to say that most people who are, have like a normally functioning sexual system crave sex.

I mean, could you just, you know, do it by yourself and like handle your own business? I'm sure some people could be perfectly happy like that. So yeah, it does have to do with what she wants. but I do think that for most people, there are sexual urges that if you're in a committed, intimate relationship, that that has to be communicated with your partner, whatever those are, whether they're with that person,

with another person, or whether you're not feeling those urges at all, I think communication is the key to kind of figure out how to work through this. So I think you're on the right track. I think you might need to lean in a little bit harder to just being really honest about where you're at. and that might bring you guys closer.

I've seen that happen many times. I think I was sidetracked before, but when someone talks about their doubts and the relationship, it's like this relief of like, oh, I can just like relax now. There's an elephant in the room. Yes. And then you can really almost reconnect because all the little bickerings that come along with that

or the avoidances or like those awkward things of like one person's approaching, the other person's rejecting, like all these little details that bring you farther apart, I think will, those things can melt away if you're just calling out the elephant in the room, like you said. So I would start with that. Right. And doing that with a therapist probably feels a little safer.

Yes. Someone to help take care of her. That's not just you. Give us an update on how that goes. Yes. I would love, this is one that I would love some more information on. an update, let us know some more details and kind of how you're thinking and feeling, because I really like this question. All right, let's do a betcha says. All right, I will read this.

Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, I love the podcast and look forward to the new episode every week. Thanks for all you do. I'm writing in hoping you can help me decide what to do. My husband and his mom have had a rocky relationship the past few years and went several months without speaking earlier this year. His parents have been divorced for almost 15 years and still do not like each other. She married a man two years ago who has been in and out of their lives since the divorce and it's been very hard for my husband to make peace with the situation. He started therapy this year and is making great strides and his feelings about their marriage, but things are still not great between him and his mom. Last weekend I went shopping with his stepmom and my mom. We're expecting

and went shopping for the nursery. And at lunch, his stepmom. He said, stepmom shared a lot of details about his parents' divorce, including how his mom had a full-on physical affair with the man she's now married to during her first marriage to my husband's father. She also stole money from his father on top of lots of other shady things. My question is, should I tell my husband any of this? He already knew she had money from his father but didn't know how or to what extent, but the affair is brand new information. I hate hiding information from him, but I don't want to make their real.

relationship worse, given how far he's come. He has a sister who's very protective of their mother, and I also don't want to put him in the same position I am in regards to his sister. What do you think? Should I stay silent and let him repair the relationship while knowing this or clue him in to how things happened? His mom has always played the victim in the divorce and in almost every argument or disagreement they have, which does not help. I'm afraid he will find out about our conversation at lunch one day and will cause problems for my marriage, which I do not want. Any advice is greatly appreciated best a conflicted betch. This is a tough one.

I thought this was an interesting dilemma. Yeah, what do you think? I think, I don't think it's good to keep things from a significant other. However, if I were her, I would go to my husband. I would say, I had an interesting lunch today with your stepmom. She was like talking a lot about, she was talking a lot about your parents' divorce. And she mentioned some things that I hadn't heard before. I'm not sure if you know them.

I'm not sure if you want to know them. It made me feel a little uncomfortable because I had never heard them from you. If you don't want to talk about it or you don't want to know, I don't want to make things worse between you and your mom, you let me, you let me know if you want to know and I'll tell you. And if you don't, I totally get that too. And we can not talk about it. Love it.

I love that. I think it's great. It's giving him the option and not forcing the information on him. If he chooses the like ignorance is bliss option. Right. I personally. Does it matter at this point? I don't know.

Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I do think coming back almost to our last email, like in some ways, the truth will set you free. Right. if he's going to forgive his mom and move on with a relationship with his mom and then to find out five years down the road that this happened, if his forgiving her is based on a certain set of truths, which are not the truth, it's, you know, it's just you're repairing, but not with, you're not

really repairing. You're repairing based on like a, you know, a tunnel vision version of who you think your mother is or who he thinks his mother is. I personally, I agree with what you said. I don't think it's her job to decide that for him. But if I'm him or if I'm his therapist, I would say, let's lay all the cards on the table, know what you're dealing with, and then figure out how to handle it.

Right. No, I agree. I agree he should know. Like, I think that if I were him, it would be the better move to say, well, like, what did she say? Right. But I also do believe that this is his dad's new wife's version of events.

And we obviously don't know the mom. We don't know anything about this. She sounds like the way she describes the mom, it sounds like the mom is usually the problem and is the one more likely to not be forthcoming or truthful. But we don't know them. We don't know the stepmom. Like stepmom clearly has a version of events that she's heard from the dad,

which might be, you know, their version. You know, there's three sides to every story. it's possible that's not like the entire truth either. Yes. But that's not really the point, I guess. Anyway, it's more like, do you want to hear this version? And maybe he's heard it. Maybe he has heard it already.

I have a feeling. I mean, she didn't give us enough information again. Happy to hear a follow up on this. There's a part of me that thinks that he's already suspicious of this. Like, why? I'm sure there's a bunch of other reasons about why he's upset with his mom. mom, but subconsciously or under the surface, maybe he does have a feeling that the way that this relationship started was not, you know, above board.

So he might already be having, there might be some relief for him even in like confronting this in some way in therapy if this is a fear that he has or like a part of why he's angry with his mom. So, yeah, I love the way you phrase it. I think that's great. I would go with that, let him decide what he wants to do. But I do think, you know, we talked about family estrangement a few weeks ago. I think sometimes with these types of family conflicts where you're like, can I accept this

person in my life, given the way that they've behaved and the way they're behaving, it is nice to go make that decision based on like having all the information. Right. especially if there is some, you know, unconscious suspicion that this is what's happening. It might be a relief for him to be like, okay, so she cheated if she did. Maybe this, like you said, if she did. Okay. Now I can either choose to accept that or not accept that.

Right. I can't imagine there's a world where, like, in a healthy relationship, you're going to not tell your husband. Like, I would not be able to, I wouldn't be able to not tell. You would have been on the phone on the way home from the lunch. Yeah. I mean, obviously, if it was something upsetting, I think you would, you would, like, try to find a tactful way to do it. And I do think where she's like, I don't want to, like, make, I understand where she's like, I don't want to make this worse. Right.

If, like, you're kind of on a good track here, but I don't think the answer is, this isn't really her problem. So I think she just needs to, like, be, and I agree to not cause issues in her own marriage, you just need to be honest. but also give the person the choice and not be like, you know things about his mom that he doesn't. That would be like the worst case scenario, I think. I totally, yeah, I think the sooner the better. I would definitely say you can replay Jordana's explanation

or her, you know, how she said it. I think that was great, give him the choice, but I think it is going to be bad for your marriage. If you know this for a long period of time, you don't even let him know at all that you have this information, the longer it goes. the harder it's going to be for you to let him know.

And there might be things that happen like when you guys are out or something that occurs where you're like, oh my gosh, I know this thing that's so personal to you that you don't even know. And I agree, that's not a great feeling. Right. That's like a disconnector.

Totally. By the time you listen to this, it's like I probably be a few. I had lunch with your stepmom last month. Yes. It's been meaning to tell you. Yes. The sooner the better.

but I think it's never like, it's never too late. Yeah, no, it's never too. I know I should have told you earlier. The harder part would be if you wait two years, then that's going to be a harder thing. So if it's within a month, a couple months, hopefully I would definitely just let him know because that's, you know, that's his call to make if it's going to,

my point is, I think from where we cut or from where sort of my school of thought is on all of this is if he's going to repair with his mother, that's going to be his work that he has to do within his own mind and his own body, not contingent on his mother's behaving this way or that way or the other way or what she did in the past or didn't do in the past. He has to change his mindset and his relationship to being triggered by his mom. So being in denial or dealing with only part of the truth,

I don't think is going to be helpful long term for him to repair with. his mom. Yes, might it? They take a few steps back initially and I get why you're concerned. That's probably true. But I think for the longer term recovery, he needs to have all the information. It's one thing if you never knew, he never knew. And like then it really is ignorance is bliss. But here, you know, you're his partner. I think you got to, you know, let him in. Agreed. Let's do some intentions. All right. Okay. I'll read this one. Hi, Jay and Dr. Naomi. when I hear the oversharing wrap-up music every week, I feel sad. Aw.

It's weird to say I love that. Yeah. I love it when you're sad and you miss me. Yes. I'm very into codependent relationships. I'm writing to request an intention around negative past experiences and negative self-talk. In short, after many social interactions, particularly those around work, I say and think some mean things towards myself. After a slightly awkward moment on a work call, I'll hang up and say something like,

Idiot, why the hell do you talk? Or what's wrong with you? Or, oh God, you were so weird to myself. I noticed this and then some pretty serious spinning out after I sent a contract for renewal and didn't hear back for a few days from a client recently. That feeling of essentially putting myself out there and just waiting for my inbox number to change is a major challenge for me. It's a client I've worked with for several years. I know they're probably just busy. Of course, ultimately, if they don't renew our contract, it's not the end of the world. there are other clients, but it's more about the feeling of waiting for something to change and then beating myself up.

I realize that it feels a lot like when I had a long-term unrecipricated crush on a friend and the intense feelings of suspense while waiting for a call or text back from him. It's like it's lighting up a similar part of my brain. As far as I can tell,

that situation was when talking to myself so unkindly started too. My parents never talked to me that way. I think I started talking to myself that way when I knew my friend didn't really feel the way I did, but I still had my own feelings and was almost trying to punish or shame myself out of them. But obviously it's not healthy, and I don't think it's working, L.O.L.

I'm 38, and this experience was for my late teens and early 20s. I'd love an intention to help me rewrite these neural pathways around being vulnerable, waiting, and how I deal with potential rejection. Thanks, a mean girl to myself. All right. First of all, I love this listener. I can tell she's a hardcore listener because I really feel like she's doing the work. Like she's recognizing there's this similar feeling in her body from this waiting for a client

to return your email as there is from this big unrequited love from her early 20s. So it's really nice that you're making that connection that it's like not really about the thing. It's about how the thing is making you feel. Right. It feels like maybe like this fear of like rejection. or this like getting ahead of the rejection or like blaming someone for the rejection, which is herself, I guess.

Right. It almost makes me think of, and I love that she's aware of herself talk, which is the first amazing step, being aware of how you're talking to yourself. It makes me think of like sibling relationships, like when your sibling does something embarrassing and you're like, shut up, stop speaking. Like your siblings can be so mean. Like, are you wearing that? That's horrible.

Like, pop that pimple on your face. You're disgusting. Like, the way that, like, a sibling might talk to you, and I'm not referring to you and me, I think our 10-year gap has, you know, smooth those. Edges. Definitely others. Yes. I think when you're a little closer in age and you're almost like, the reason I bring it up

is because you almost feel like the person's embarrassing you. Like, if you go to school, and you had a sibling that's like in the grade above you or below you or like you share friends or you're in the same social circle. It's like that that really mean voice that you can talk to a sibling in a way that's just like really cruel. Like that's how you're talking to yourself. And it's because you're trying to like punish yourself for having for doing these like embarrassing things or not being good enough in some way. But you're doing it to yourself, which is so it's great when you notice that you're doing it. we have to figure out a way for you to recognize it and let it go.

Well, I wonder, like, what purpose that is, because usually when you do these things, they serve some purpose in the past or like in a survival mode of these things, right? Like what, I'm trying to think, like, how this could have benefited her in the past. Right. Well, I think maybe with this earlier relationship, if she would, like, reach out to the guy and he didn't call back or she would, like, go up to him at a party or whatever it was, and then it didn't go well. She was almost trying to like punish herself.

Yeah. From doing it again. Yeah. Like stop it. You're embarrassing yourself or like, you know, that kind of thing where it's like you have this urge. But she's trying to like, you know, like the same way. If you don't want to, you know, some people, if you don't want the dog to like pee on the rug, you'll like yank the dog when it pees on the rug or yell at the dog when it pees on the rug.

Like obviously it doesn't work well. It's not a great strategy, but like I think that's what she's doing to herself when she feels a negative, like that, that emotion in her body, whatever that is, that like embarrassment, like rejection feeling. Yeah. Instead of like sitting with that rejection feeling and just, and we'll try to look for ways to kind of calm yourself and talk yourself through those rejection feelings. I think her mechanism that she's developed is when she feels that in her body, negative. negative rejection feeling, she like punishes herself or yells at herself or is mean to herself maybe to try to prevent her from doing the thing again that she thinks led to that feeling. But what really led to that feeling is her own internal dialogue or low self-esteem or

whatever the case might be. Yeah, maybe it's to like stop her. Almost feels like it's trying to stop her from trying. Yeah. Because she's like don't even, don't even try because you're. you're going to embarrass yourself. Yes. Or like, you know, move on from this guy because you're going to embarrass yourself. And maybe to an extent that is helpful to, you know what I mean? If you're speaking to yours,

if you are pursuing someone and they are continuously showing you that they're not interested, I don't think it's helpful to be like, you're pathetic, but it is helpful to be like, keep going. You got this. Right. Yeah. Like, that's not healthy. Right.

Yeah. Then you be like what stops someone from becoming a stalker? Like this feeling of like, okay, like, this, I mean, again, it doesn't mean you have to berate yourself, but to say, like, this person isn't interested. And I think there's a healthier way to say it of like, this person isn't a match for you or this client isn't, you know, isn't the right fit for you rather than you're awful, but they both kind of do lead to the same effect, which is like you stop pursuing this person that's not interested in you. Right. Right. Well, it's interesting the perspective. One is like,

you know, there's something wrong with me, like there's something bad about me that's making this not feel good. And the other one is like something about interacting with this person in this way is making me not feel good. Right. One is like a low self-esteem thing that's like there's something wrong with me that's making this not feel good. And one is more like there's something like you said about the match between me and this person that isn't feeling good. Right. So maybe I, so both would result in.

you like leaning away from that, continuously seeking out interactions with that person. And I think when you have low self-esteem and you have this like external, like I need something to happen on the outside for me to feel better, then you keep seeking that thing that's not making you feel good. Right. Versus kind of coming back to yourself and saying like, I know that I'm good. I know that I'm okay because I was okay before I met this person. because I live with myself 24-7.

And this is, you know, I think I like this question because I think a lot of people deal with low self-esteem and seeking out affirmation from the environment to soothe those feelings of low self-esteem. So I think in this and what I talk with a lot of patience about is kind of recognizing how irrational it is that you are with, With you, 24-7, you know your thoughts, you know your urges, you know every little behavior that you do, you know whether you wash your hands after you go to the bathroom, you know, like, all the nitty, gritty details of like who you are as a person way better than any other person that is on the outside. Yet, we give other people so much power when you know who you are. You know if you're a good person. You know if you're kind. You know if you're, you know, you know all of your successes. You have your resume memorized in your brain, like becoming aware of that when you're allowing someone else to have so

much power over yourself. So I do think this is a good occasion and to do these kind of like effort, like to do an affirmation journal where you write down. Like these are the things that I know to be true about myself from living with myself 24-7. I know my dreams. I know every behavior. I know. I know what I think when I look at people. So taking the reality of the information and knowing that you know yourself the best and seeing if you can pull up some of the good stuff to rewire the brain in that way. Are they supposed to be fact-based those things that you know about yourself? Or are they like, I'm a good person.

Or are they like, I answer emails? Like what are they supposed to be like subjective or objective? Well, I think figuring out what's important to you. Like, what is, what are your values? Being a good person, being beautiful, being thin, being, like, check your values. What is it being attractive to the opposite sex or your preferred sex? Like, what are your values and what are you seeking affirmation around? So, and I always say the irony of everything that we struggle with is, I think, and I think,

Most people would agree that the standard of worthiness is like being a good human being. Like that's really like kind and thoughtful and, you know, not mean and not vindictive and all these things. And I'm not saying everyone lives on like one side of this completely. But like if that's what's important to you, that's the easiest thing to do. And we can all do it. There's no competition. There's no like prize for who's like the kindest or the, At least, you know, it's like you can all, we can all be this.

And if that's what's really important to you, which I think is really important to most people, we should be able to feel good about ourselves. I know the other side of like societal norms and appearance and, you know, accolades and awards and money. That all matters. But it's like the whole tombstone thing, you know, like, what do you want on your tombstone? Like, close the most deals, you know, fit into a size two. Yeah, no, that's a good point.

So if you want to feel good about yourself, I think figuring out what your values are and what would really make you feel good about yourself. And then, yeah, coming up with some proof that you are that, so that when you have these moments of like low self-esteem or negative self-talk, you could just notice it. It's going to happen. Just notice it and come back and just kind of be like, I trust that I'm a good human being.

Yeah. So what are intentions for her? So one that I wrote is just kind of around the idea of noticing that she needs affirmation from other people to feel safe. So I think that's part of what's happening. She didn't feel safe probably for a long time in this relationship with this guy. Like happy when he called, sad when he didn't answer. Like that doesn't feel like a safe place to live. So, you know, one is I do not need affirmation from others to feel safe. I can feel safe in this moment. And that just comes from what she's already doing, which is watching her thoughts. And you're not going to stop them. The automatic stuff is going to happen.

There's really no way to stop it. Practice it'll go away by itself over time, but you can't will that stuff away, at least not the automatic. Right. But if you notice it, and I think you can come back and notice that alarm bell that you're seeking affirmation in order to feel safe and reminding yourself, I do not need affirmation from others to feel safe. I'm safe right now.

And she knows it. She said if she doesn't close this deal, she's going to be fine. That's a good thing to say when you're waiting, when you send the risky email. Yeah. You really don't need that person to feel safe. You're okay. But you're like she's saying, the wiring in your brain is used to that type of interaction making you feel really unsafe.

So just reminding yourself of that, I think is helpful. So you try to create like a reason for why. it's happening because of that, which is I think that's the issue. Yes. This is happening because I'm an idiot or whatever the thing is. Right. Yes, exactly. The feeling that she's having is happening not because she's an idiot, because she is seeking affirmation

or she's trying to feel safe based on someone else's reaction. That's what's really making her feel unsafe. She's okay. You're okay. All right. That's great. All right. Moving right along.

Do some triggers. All right. Let's do our first one. I'll read this. Okay. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I have a triggered scenario that maybe you'll have some thoughts on. For background, my husband and I co-bought a house with his sister and her husband this year.

I've never heard of that before. Yeah. That first sentence kind of gave me a little anxiety. That seems like a very big entanglement. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Like one, to live with.

with your sister and brother-in-law, and then also to financially be entwined in it. Right, to something where you can't. It's not like splitting rent where you could just end it at any moment. That being said, I do really long for a time when people could live more in community like this. You know, like you have family and friends

and we're so bounderied, I think, that we kind of isolate ourselves, but that's a topic for another thing. No, I think it's like, it's almost like the communism. Like in theory, it's beautiful. Yes. Right. Yes.

Like the theory, like the idea of it, like we all work together. No one's not about like who is more or like we're all living in community doing our part. Amazing. Does it work when executing it not often? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like our egos get in the way. But yeah.

Sorry, right. We digress. We digress. Yes. Okay. Back to this person's issue. This was more of a financial decision than wanting to live close to family decision. They live in the upstairs of the house and we live in the walkout basement section.

We have separate entrances and everything and try to coexist as if we are neighbors, but obviously both park in the driveway. They have a security camera at the front of the house that views the driveway and our cars, and I've only fully started driving myself around this year. I'm not the most perfect driver and everyone knows that about me. Here's my situation. On a few occasions, when I back out of the driveway to go to work, I have bumped the curb wrong or sideswiped our recycle bin. Every time something a little embarrassing like this happens, my sister-in-law will view it

from the security camera and send the video to my husband. The message that accompanies the video is not constructive or helpful, but the likes of, Yikes. I know this because by the time I get to work, my husband has made mention of the incident and that he saw the video. To me, this feels like she's making fun of me to my husband, even though he reads, assures me he isn't, she isn't. The only other reason I can think she does this is to tattle on me for bumping the car as if my husband is in charge of me or the car. How trigger can I be that I'm

being spied on in my own driveway and talked about afterwards? Thanks, Daddy, I crashed the car. I do think she's being made fun of. I'm not even, I mean, honestly, like, I don't know how often she's done this. Like, it sounds like a few times. Like, you might want to try to, like, not do it. I know that's not like why she's writing in, but it does sound like it does annoy. This is kind of like the main issue of living with your sister-in-law and your husband,

like you were almost a little too close because you might not, if that was just a neighbor of yours, you might not, you might feel weird sending that video because it's her brother. She's like, I do think she's kind of making fun of you.

Right. So I validate that feeling, even though the husband says she's not, I think she is. Yeah. Or she's like trying to say something about how does it bother her? And if it was a neighbor, they'd probably be going off and making fun, like worse. You know, like, oh my God, I can't believe she did that again.

Like get some driving lessons. Well, you know, like it would probably be worse if it was a stranger-ish. But yeah, I find this triggering. I don't like the idea of like in your own home having to feel like you're being watched. I get that. That's annoying. I mean, yes, it's a recycling bin. If you're going to hit something,

it's probably the best thing that you could hit is like a trash bin. It's like she's damaging things. But yeah, I really, I don't like not just, and it's one thing to have a security camera because, I don't know, an incident happened or somebody came to the package. Yes. Whatever, yeah. But just to be randomly, like, watching it, like voyeuristically to see if you're,

her sister-in-law is, like, being a good driver, I find that really annoying. I agree. I'm surprised the husband is, like, telling her because to me that also makes the relationship even weirder. Like, what is she supposed to think? Oh, his sister's just like having it.

Like, what was, if I were her, I'd be like, what is the purpose of her sending that to you? Right. Like, what is she doing it for? Right. But I can, I can see why the sister-in-law is like, this is like a little, like, if she caught, if she happened to see it and she does it all the time,

but she should be like, a little bit more mature and just be like, I don't know, I feel like she could say something, like, do we need, like, should we move the recycling bins or like, should we, let's create a clear path for you to leave. Right. Because it seems like it's getting a little tight in there, like something maybe solution oriented. Right. Because you're right. I don't think she cares that she's hitting the recycling bin. I think she thinks it's funny that she's making fun of her. Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I get why this is triggering. Yeah. You know, it's one thing to accept certain things about yourself, but like, I'm just not a good driver and I don't really care. I could see,

I don't think that's the issue, but like, yeah, maybe you want to work on it a little bit. Practice with your husband or with someone else and like see kind of what angles you need to use to do, you know, if you want to work on it, I think that would be great. But I really don't like the idea of someone just like voyeuristically watching what you're doing so that they can then make fun of you. I think she should just next time to your own husband. She's around the sister-in-law. She should be like, so, saw you were watching the camera again. You know, see anything good?

You know, like, oh, did you see me, like, scratch my butt before I got into the car? Just make a joke out of the fact that she knows that she's watching her because she's making it. No. Right. If you have something to say, she could say, right. Right. And then, like, also just making fun of you to your own, like, make fun of you to her. She should make fun of you with her husband, like a normal person.

Not your husband. That's rude. Yes, yes. And honestly, I think this could be like a funny, you could make light of it in a funny way that's like, next time you want to make fun of my driving, send the video to your husband instead of my husband. Or like, you know, you must have a slow day at work.

So you're watching the cameras again. This sounds like this might create. I mean, then maybe, but maybe that's good. Then you work through it. I mean, if you're going to be living with them, I think this is one you need to like work out. Yeah. And maybe like a boundaries.

There's got to be like a very clear boundaries discussion. If you are with financially or like proximatively involved with any kind of in-law, I think you need to have that talk. So this is probably just the beginning. Yeah. I totally agree. And I think the idea of, of, you know, being in this house and knowing that she's like, it sounds like she's actually actively like seeking out these moments for like entertainment.

purposes. This is triggering. I don't like having people watch other people in their own home on cameras. I'm going to give this like a seven. I was going to say a seven too. Yeah. That is very annoying. Validated. It's one thing. Honestly, I think it would be way better if like she just was standing at the door and saw this happen and reported to the husband, oh my gosh, she hit the recycling bin again. Like, ha ha. Like laughing. That would still be triggering. But, the idea that she's like checking the cameras almost like watching her is what makes it like more triggering. In order to like because she knows that she's going to do it.

And then it just. It's also just like if I'm the husband, I'm like how would how would be like what is he saying to her about the videos? Because she says by the time she gets to work, the husband's already seen them and saying that. It's also like the fact that she's just texting the husband, not texting both of them, it does feel like. Yeah.

Are you creating? Are you trying to create like some sort of rift? are you like tattling on me? Right. What is the husband saying about the videos? Yes. In that scenario?

Like the fact that he's telling her and that she's saying, he's telling her that the reaction from his sister is something along the lines of yikes, but he's not saying that she's making fun of her. I would like need to talk that out with my husband. Be like, well, then why are you even telling me? Right.

If she's not doing it to like shame or make fun of me. Right. Or, like, and I think this is a big one, like why are you making it so comfortable that she continues to keep coming to you with this? Like people can read the room. If she writes yikes and he writes back, like stop, she's, you know, she's learning. She's trying her best or something. Right.

She would stop doing that. She would stop doing that. So he's not doing that. He's probably like, oh gosh, not again. Right. So it's like, let's face this head on. Yeah. Like you said, but it all comes full circle to the first email.

Yes. Let's communicate. Get it all out there. Right. And it's, you know, I would find it much more acceptable and totally understandable if the husband was like, it actually does really bother me as well that you keep hitting. It would be like totally fine to say like when you hit the trash thing, it kind of like gives me a lot of anxiety. I get worried you're going to hit something else or like we're going to damage something. Like let's, can we try to figure out maybe this weekend we'll practice getting out of the driveway or do something like that? Like to me, that would be totally acceptable. It's not an issue if they both have. have a problem with her hitting the recycling bin. It's more like the way it's being done is super passive, aggressive, and annoying.

I agree with the writer. Yes. And one last comment on this, which I think is if this listener, just to give the listener some responsibility, if you keep hitting things, which isn't like a really acceptable way to drive, like there's objects,

you're supposed to avoid them. You know, I do think just saying like, well, everyone knows I'm not a good driver. It's not that might be annoying to people, which is why they're getting out these like annoyances behind your back or semi behind your back. I would really work on that. It's almost like, well, everyone knows that I'm just really lazy

and I don't like to clean up after myself. Right. Just because you say that doesn't make it okay. Right. Right. Okay. Let's do another one. All right. Hi, Jordan and Dr.

Naomi, I love oversharing and I've been avid listener from the very beginning. I'm writing in with a triggered scenario I'd love to get your take on. I've been with my husband for 10 years and we met in college. When I first met my then future in-laws, I was only 21, and they introduced themselves as Mr. and Mrs. Blank. I thought this was a little odd, as my friends always called my parents by their first names, but went with it and used Mr. and Mrs.

when talking to them. I think it's important to note that my husband's close group of friends from growing up still refer to each other's parents as Mr. and Mrs. When my husband met my parents, he used Mr. and Mrs. and they quickly said, oh, call us by our first names. Now is where my triggered comes in. Flash forward to getting married, going on three years, and my in-laws started referring to each other as mom and dad to me.

For example, when talking to just me, my mother-in-law will say, oh, dad is picking up groceries, any special requests? I find this to be extremely triggering. I have a mom and dad, and I don't want to call my in-laws mom or dad. I just avoid using any name at all, which is honestly made it difficult to communicate at times. If my husband is around, I can say, oh, your mom asked about XYZ, but that isn't always natural

in trying to get their attention or start a convo. It feels like too much time has passed to say anything now. Overall, I've been really lucky with very nice caring in-laws and I know it doesn't really matter, but honestly, this mom and dad thing

makes me crazy. How triggered should I be? Thanks, you're not my mom. Right. What are your kids' friends call you? They call me Miss Naomi. Miss Naomi? Yeah.

I mean, they just do that. I don't really like tell them, what to do that, tell them to do that. I think it's like almost like a school thing, you know, like if they have a teacher or coach or someone like, you know, they'll call them like Mr. or Mr. with the first name. I don't, they can totally call me Naomi. I'm very casual about that. Yeah, I can't imagine you. It's actually Dr. Bernstein. I really love the cat, like that casual vibe. But I do find it with my kids, like I almost have to make. sure to tell them, like, call, not to call their friend's parents by their first name unless they say

it's okay, because I do think some people find that offensive. Right. Especially from a child. From an adult, it's different. I think from a child, it's kind of like you want to show respect or reverence, but like two adults calling each other Mr. or Mrs. Yeah, I do agree. It would be like weird to ask your adult, your son.

adult girlfriend to call you like Mrs. Bernstein or Dr. Bernstein. In perpetuity, like forever. Well, it sounds like to these in-laws, it's like we're either far enough removed that you need to show me the respect of the Mr. Mrs.

Or we are one new family unit and I am mom and dad. There is no in between. So I understand why she's like, we're married. I'm not going to call you Mrs. whatever, because that's like my name too. And that's extremely formal.

But I also am not like going from that to mom and dad. Yeah. And I think that's what's triggering for her. Is it sort of like this like, I'm like virtual stranger, like who you would meet like a random person that's going to, you know, welcome to your reservation, Mrs. So-and-so. Right. Or you're my mom.

Like there's a big gray area. there that's not being acknowledged. So I could, I definitely see why this is triggering. I find that tradition extremely. I think that tradition started when people were literally getting married when they were like 18 and they were so young that it was kind of like you grew up together that they were kind of like a second mom or dad or whatever. And she did say they've been together since they're 21, which is the only thing that maybe makes it something like they're in, I guess they're still in school. They're still in college when they met. So maybe she does. the parents did think of it as a,

but you would think after a while, like less than 10 years, they would switch to first names and then switch to this mom and dad thing. I'm trying to think, would you be offended by Jeff's mom wanting to call you to call her mom? I don't know that I would be offended.

I would just feel a little awkward. Like, I don't think I would, so that's the other thing is I do think if she can wrap her, I get her initial thing, her initial gut thing is like this doesn't feel good. Like I have a mom. You're not my mom. But it's almost like if she can take the intensity of it out and just refer to her as mom,

as in like just taking out the your mom, you know, like, oh, so and so like mom's here. If you know that it's not your mom, it's his mom. And like, it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean that that's your mom, that's your new mom, that you don't have a mom. Like it's really just this weird feeling of like, mom is a special title that I reserve for my mom who raised me, who's like my mom. Right.

I wonder if she just called her by her first name if she would say anything. She'd be like, actually, it's mom. Like, let's say she just tried that if she got her attention by saying like, Lori, whatever her name is. Yeah. I think you could try it. Or I think, you know, this is triggered, right? So it's almost like, why is this triggering?

Like if you just called her mom, just try that on and see how it feels. You know what's easier is like once you have kids, then like the- You call them grandma. Yeah, now they're called like grandma or like whatever their grandparent name is. And that's an easier way to refer. But yeah, I think the mom made it pretty clear. She doesn't want to be called by her first name. It sounds like unless that conversation happened like a decade ago,

in which case you could try it again. Right. I wonder what the husband's thoughts on this are. Yeah, I'm really curious, too. I do think in the nature of triggered, in the nature of the show of kind of like, this is a feeling that's coming up in you, noticing why this is making you feel triggered.

I relate, I get it. I would probably feel the same way. I would not want to call my mother-in-law mom. I get why it feels that way, but almost like, what's the big deal? If she likes it and it's easy, like, oh, instead of saying like your mom's here, it's being like mom's here.

Right. Yeah. I don't know. It makes you feel icky too. It is like a little bit of like an icky. It's almost, creepy feeling. I don't know why.

Like a little. Like we don't have the same mom, you and I. Like you have your mom. I have my mom. I agree. Like it does make it worse that she used to have to call her. Like I think if she went from like Susan to mom,

it would be. Like, okay, now we're like married. It feels like this thing, but it's always been like a friendly relationship. It went from like super formal to like now I'm your daughter. Right. Yes. Yeah. So I do think that makes it worse.

And I would call her very first name. Yeah. Maybe she's, you know, I can understand the respect thing when you're 21. Yeah. But you're 31 years old now. She's your mother-in-law. Call her Susan. If she wants to, if she doesn't like that, like, you know what I mean?

make her opt out rather than you opting out. I kind of agree. I think you're not comfortable. I'm partially pushing you just to kind of see if you can figure out what this trigger is or if you can desensitize yourself to it.

But I agree. I think you can just call her, Susan, or whatever her name is. And if it means that much to her, she'll confront you on it and you guys will have a conversation. But I think it's pretty normal to just call her by her first name.

You've known her for a really long time. Yeah, give us an update. That's your homework. Call her Susan. Let us know how it goes. I would love to hear how it goes. I would love to hear if she says something. This could be that, you know,

sometimes you've got to establish your dominance as the head bitch in charge. Uh-oh. This is a great first step. You're like, I would not recommend that as a psychologist at all. But, but yeah, I do think you could start with that. That's what you're comfortable with. It's totally like, I would. will say it is not disrespectful, I think, in America currently to call your mother-in-law by her first date.

Like, I don't think any people would be like, that's really rude. I can't believe you did that. So go for it. And if she wants to have that conversation, maybe you can understand what it means for her to be, for you to call her mom. Maybe there's some bigger meaning for her. But yeah, I could see this being triggering. I'll give it like a five. I give it a five and a half. All right. Fair enough. Yeah, the mom thing does feel a little icky. I get it.

I keep coming back to it. It's just very presumptuous, too. I would never assume that my daughter-in-law, I would assume, like, I mean, I don't know how I would feel, but I feel like I could never just assume someone would want to call me mom that wasn't my daughter. Right. Yeah, it's almost like the daughters, if the daughter wants to do that, that's like endearing and kind of nice, but shouldn't come from like. the top down kind of thing. Like a mandated thing. Doesn't feel good. All right. Well, five, five.

We'll call it a 525. And we'll see you next week. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Rebecca Steinberg. Editing by Will Maxwell. Guest booking by Allie Friedlander. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and everything's fine.

And send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches. Thank you.