Oversharing - Is It Healthy To Use ChatGPT For Therapy?

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

Fresh off a vacation with friends, Jordana shares the best ways to manage group outings and Dr. Naomi celebrates her ability to maintain such important friendships into adulthood. A listener admits that she has been using ChatGPT as therapy and Dr. Naomi advises how this could be more harmful than helpful. A Betch seeks help with her feelings after she learns her father betrayed her Mother her entire life, all while still being a good dad to her. Dr. Naomi pens an intention for a listener who recently took a new job at a reduced salary, only to discover her negotiation skills weren't as strong as her new colleagues’. Triggered by her boyfriend's lack of help around the house, Betch wonders if she's over reacting or right to be annoyed . Finally, a woman is left enraged after she shares some dining info with fellow travelers on a vacation, only to find them sitting at her intended table and suddenly unable to remember their recent encounter. Subscribe to Oversharing on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OversharingPod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. How is it going?

I missed you last week. You were gallivanting. Throughout Europe. Yes. Amazing. How was your trip? I saw photos. It looks so, I just want to start off.

I want to hear about your trip, but I want to start off and say, I think it's incredible that your group of friends manages to get their shit together and go on vacation with all the partners and do it. It's so hard. I give you guys a lot of credit. Thank you. Thank you. I'm actually, I am very proud of like that, that we, we, we, we pull.

it off every year pretty much or usually every year. I imagine there's schedules and some of them have kids and there's child care and just like so many moving pieces. Yeah, well, I'm telling you, like, I know, we've talked about how like you want to do more, you would want to do more trips like that or you're talking about planning a girl's trip. And I'm telling you, the key is, the key, the big mistake people make is like pulling 10 people and their partners. Yeah. Because that's just too many people. You need like the three people who are the most gung ho, the most down, and you get them committed. And then the three of the three or the six of you if you're doing partners, you pick the dates and you plan the thing. And then you send. And then you still invite everyone, but you say this is where we're going. You guys are all welcome to come. So it's like you can't like you can't let everyone have an opinion. That's sort of going just go crazy. And then you play. And then you play. lay on people's FOMO, too, because it's like the idea of planning the trip probably feels daunting. But once everyone knows it's happening and they're afraid of missing out, they're probably like,

we got to get, we got to make this work. Yeah. And then they do, which is nice. And then I also really enjoy, so we did a group trip for like three nights. And then Mike and I went to a visa. And then Mike and I went to Portugal for a week on our own. And I did actually, what I do when we've done this before, and I do really like getting both on a trip. I do think it's very fun because there's certain parts where like, you know, we travel well together. We do. But he likes to like sleep late. I'm kind of more about like I'm out and about and I want to be like in the sun and doing things. Right. So it's nice when we're in a, we're sharing a house with 10 other people. He can kind of do what he wants to. I can go hang out with my friends in early in the morning, let him sleep. And it is fun to be able to

just have like a group memory and then do your and then have your own quality time separately. But you don't have to be. It doesn't have to be all two of you. I'm sure. I don't know how the longest you and Jeff have been away together is probably not that long since you've, um, since you've had kids. Yep. Exactly. But by the end of like a 10 day trip together, we're sitting at dinner like, what have we not discussed? I don't think there's anything we haven't talked about, we could talk about the food, but like, you know, we got a lot in. Totally. It's nice to have like a bigger group, a little more drama, a little more excitement, a little more, like, variables.

So fun. It looked really, really nice. I'm happy for you. That's the goal. It is hard. I just really tough. We've talked about this before. It's tough to prioritize outside of your own nuclear family.

Like it's tough. It's so stupid when I think about it. I'm like, oh, well, like this one has a piano recital and this one has a football game and, you know, obviously getting child care at a time that's convenient for the people that are doing it. Right. It just feels really tough. But I think if you make it a priority in your life to maintain friendships to, you know, you really feel like if I if I don't spend time with these people, this this friendship isn't going to like real quality time it's very different than like okay we go to dinner and we go home right no it is because you're you're together for a while and I think it is worth like you know again we think we talked about this it's not it doesn't seem obvious that those friendships are worth putting aside pTO for planning for but I do think they are I do think it revitalizes you in a different kind of way and I think the name of the game kind of like what I said before is planning very far ahead. Yeah. Because obviously on short notice, the, you know,

people who have kids or people who have a lot more responsibilities, even me having, this was my first time having, doing one of these trips with the dog. Right. And I added, and like a big extra layer of like coordinating and making sure. Totally. Parents watched him, but like that they were free and that we have to get him there and then pick him up. So I do think just like, if you have, if you have enough time, you can do anything. If you have enough lead time. I'm motivated. I'm going to make it happen. All of you out there that I've been lightly, like, tapping on the window, I'm going to pick two and we're going to do it.

Three people, because three people is like, if it's just three people, that's a great. That's a girl's trip. Two is like a little aggressive, I think. Because then again, you're like going on a romantic getaway with a friend. Three is like, I think three plus is a nice number. Yeah, no, I agree. But I would, like, even when I came to New York, you know, a few weeks ago, I had, I just had one friend come in and we had a blast just the two of us. So I, that's, that's recharging also if you can't get everybody together. There's something about like an

overnight, a wake up in the morning, you know, that's different than like, let's meet for dinner in and out. So I'm motivated. The trip looked awesome. I'm always, you have such wonderful lifelong friendships. It's really that you maintain and you pour your heart into. And I think they do the same. And it's really, really nice. Thank you. Yeah. It's very, I'm very proud of my adult friendships. It's, uh, um, it feels very natural. But I guess it is, it is work when you think of it, like any other relationship, you know. Yeah. It's like something, if someone does something that annoys you, kind of working through that instead of just being like, I'm just going to, because it's so easy with a friend as opposed to a partner to just be like, I'm just not going to hang out with them

that much because they're like annoying me. Now you work through it. And being in the same place I think helps. Definitely. I think you got lucky that a lot of your friends throughout your life, like you kind of have gotten on the same path and like in terms of where you decided to live and, you know, late roots and all that. Like I didn't realize it at the time, you know, after college.

and everyone, like my friend group kind of exploded across the whole United States. And so everyone's in different places. And at the time, it felt like, okay, no big deal. We'll visit each other. It'll be great. Like, we talk all the time. And over time, it's harder and harder. So I agree. So I think it is, it is worth it. I think it's the kind of thing where it seems like I could just not. But it is, I think if you put the effort into it, you do see the rewards and, you know, your social circle, I do think determines the quality of your life. Yeah. Not just your relationship with your partner or your kids or whoever is, but also this extended network that does sometimes feel overlooked. 100%.

Yeah. And that leads us into, I think one of the questions that we're going to answer here about at least my feelings on chat, GBT as a. you know, confidant. So maybe that's a good segue. Yeah, let's get into our overshare because I had seen some feedback on a discussion we had earlier where I think you had mentioned something about AI chatbot therapy therapists being helpful. Okay. All right, let me read our first overshare. Hi, JN. You touched on this briefly in a recent episode, but I'm curious to hear a broader conversation on using AI slash chatGBT or therapy. I've been guilty of this myself and I've asked chatGB to act as my therapist since it stores

knowledge about me and I've used it for advice and conflicts with my boyfriend, issues with my anxiety and OCD, etc. But I see this becoming a really dangerous slippery slope because I find myself believing everything it tells me. And I'm worried it's just validating me no matter what I say. I also know there's a dangerous trend of people falling in love and forming relationships with AI. I'd love to hear what you both think about the psychology component of AI. So it's interesting because I have a lot of patients or not a lot, but I've had a handful of patients that, you know, have used it in between sessions, asked the questions. And it comes off as really empathic and gives what sounds like really great answers. And I think in moderation,

it's to ask a question every now and then, I think it can be. be a helpful tool. But if you find that, like, on a daily basis, this is where you're going, that you're using it every day, perhaps instead of talking to your partner or a therapist, like I think that's where I draw the line. Like, if you're having chat GBT or chatbot therapy, right. Like often, then you should probably seek actual therapy. If you're like replacing it with something. Right. And obviously it's free. It's so temps. thing. You don't have to pay for it, but there's, you know, there are definitely drawbacks. I mean, there's no professional standards. We've talked about this on here, right? Like, you're trained in all

these techniques that AI is not being trained in therapeutic techniques. They're scouring the internet and they're spitting out stuff that's probably on the surface decent advice, but there's no standards of care. There's no one to go to if, you know, things don't go right or you're getting advice. And like this listener saying, you can't even, you know, sometimes it just feels like you believe everything that it says, but it's, it doesn't have any professional training at all. Right. And being a therapist. So it is, I'm glad she's writing in. And I think we were kind of joking about it at the time. And I was like, oh, I'm going to lose my job. whatever, but I do think that it can be really dangerous. And if you're using it, you know,

two times a year or three times a year to ask it a question, great. Fine. Right. You know, maybe you get some info. Yeah. Or if you feel like you're in a panic and you can't speak to someone and maybe it'll help at least temporarily until you get to that your therapy appointment. Let's say your therapy appointments tomorrow. You're going to going crazy. Something like that. I think it's interesting. That's kind of how I feel about all these technologies is kind of like they're not inherently bad or good. I mean, I guess they're both inherently bad and good, actually. But I do think it's so much more about the way that you use them than they themselves. Like, we talk about this a lot on you up, you up with dating apps. Right. And I always liken it to

fast food like McDonald's. Like, is it something you should never, ever do? No. No, like, it's helpful. In certain scenarios, it's super fast. It's super convenient. If I'm on a road trip, of course I'll have it. If I was using it every day instead of, you know, cooking or eating anything healthy, that's where you start to get sick. That's where that doesn't actually help you thrive. You're not getting the best nutrients from something. Yes. Sort of like this. It's like if I'm using it in a crutch when I need it, when I can't, when I don't have access to a real person, that's super helpful. If I'm using it. it to replace that, just like dating apps. If I'm using that dating apps, and I'm never speaking

to a single person that I meet in public anywhere. At a bar, I'm on my phone the whole time on the dating app. Instead of like looking around, you're like, yes, totally. Then I think it's like you're, you're not using the technology in the correct way with the right. I don't, I don't want to say willpower, but I'm trying to think about what the word is. It's like you're using, you can use it, um, In certain situations, if I was really, if I was having a really busy time at work, I think I'd probably be on the apps more if I were dating because I didn't have time to go out and meet people in person. But should that be the only way you're meeting people? I don't think so. I don't think that's the healthiest way to only meet people. Totally. And the other aspect is, I think there is with all of the technology and AI and everything that we have at our fingertips, there's like this instant gratification. you know, there's like an overdose on instant gratification where, you know, again, for example,

if you're my patient, even if you're in one of my groups, so plug for my groups, anyone who is my patient who's in my groups, who I see for individual therapy, if they have a crisis or they're panicking at any moment, they have access to me. However, so, and I'm there and I will support anyone who, you know, who's in my community. But there are a lot of times when people reach out and there's part of the working through process is developing patients and learning that I'm not going to have a whole therapy session with you over text or over email.

I'll touch in or like, you know, I'll respond. We'll have a little bit, a couple back and forth. But the idea is that you can tolerate the discomfort of whatever's happened. and not feel like you're going to go to a chat bot that's going to give you an answer immediately. Same thing with sitting at a bar. And you're like, okay, there's not enough, like, attractive people in here that I'm interested in. I'm not getting the instant gratification. So I'm going to just isolate myself, dive into my phone.

And that need for instant gratification, I think, is really isolating, too, because it's sort of like other humans aren't going to be exactly what you want them to be. Right. All of the time. They're not going to show up exactly when you want them to. They're not going to say exactly what you want them to say. There might be some patience required. Yeah. But on your phone, it's bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

You could get exactly what you want, exactly when you want it. And I don't think it's good for people's brain chemistry. Totally. I mean, I've been seeing all this stuff or reading all this stuff about like the prevalence of porn in certain cultures. And I think that's kind of the issue with it too is like it's, So especially for a lot of men out there, like it's so easy to just get the instant gratification. You don't have to be rejected by this person. You can get off sexually just by watching something.

Now I'm sure it's gotten so good with like AI and all its other stuff. Oh gosh. I can't even imagine. Or you can't have an AI girlfriend. I was watching a movie. I think it was called companionship or something like that. It was about basically a guy who has like an AI robot girlfriend. Right. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's like you don't have to deal with someone not like being irritating or someone rejecting. you or somewhat like and so you do the instant gratification and like it's it feels a little it doesn't feel as good as getting the real thing but it's so much easy it's like probably feels a quarter as good as getting the real thing but it's 50 times easier yes and so then it becomes again so anyone who's out there if you notice just if you're using chat gbt for therapy or you're going

to it a lot that's probably a sign that you need to be able to sit with your emotions a little bit and just do the thing that we've talked about in here, which is like, you want the intellectualized answer, you want the verbal, the words, the thing to do or not do the advice. What you really need to do is be sitting with whatever that deeper feeling is. I'm afraid. I'm feeling rejected. I'm having a hard time sitting in guilt or whatever. it is like identify the emotion find it in your body and sit with it it's very powerful it's like a superpower to be able to tolerate your own emotions without needing the instant gratification of the text back that you're waiting for or the therapist to tell you to validate you and like she said

I haven't used chat gbt in this way but I imagine from what I'm hearing that it is validating pretty much everything that you're feeling. Yeah. And I always think of that thing. I don't know if you've read this before, also about AI, how it's going to replace all the entry-level jobs. Yeah. And I actually think about that. And I actually, that makes me feel good in some ways because I'm like,

it's replacing all the entry-level jobs, right? So if I, if it's replacing anyone who does, it doesn't now have to take a course on Psych 101. But if you want a real, it's not replacing a really good therapist. Right. It's replacing a, again, a person who took, like me, maybe, who took psych in AP psych in high school or psychology in college. It's replacing that because it has the same knowledge quicker and faster and can regurgitate it to you. But it's not replacing the world's best therapist.

It's just not able to do that. Entry level. So it's like if you want the lowest of the low of a certain thing, if you want the easiest, cheapest therapy, sure. Yeah. Maybe that's helpful. I agree. And I'll tell you what it does well that hooks people. And this is one of the hardest things for us to do when we're listening to people in our life is it will say, you know, one of the first things is like, that sounds really hard or, you know, that sounds like a really tough.

It just like, I guess part of it's programming is that it comes out with like a validating statement versus what might happen. And like, if you go to Mike and you're like, well, I'm really frustrated that Ronnie keeps like chewing the corners of the furniture. And he might be like, well, that's because you. Right. Blah, blah. Let him do it before or whatever. Right.

He doesn't say to you, yeah, that sounds really frustrating. I would love to sit and just help you through some strategies on how to handle that. Right. And that's what the chat, GBT does is it's programmed to initially just be really like, wow, that's a hard situation you're in. Let's brainstorm some strategies together. Okay. And then you're like, yeah, sure.

This, you know, it feels very. And that's probably what they teach you to do in your first year, and when you're planning to become a therapist. Again, entry level therapy session. That's probably the first thing you learned how to do. Right. Listen. Listen.

Validate. But the truth is, it's very hard for humans to do that with other people that are suffering. And this is why chat GBT is great at it because it's not a human. And it doesn't have that reaction of like this person that I love and care for is upset. And I want and I'm so antsy to like get to the punch and fix it. That I'm going to skip that step. So they don't need to skip that step because they're like, I don't really care about you. Right. So I'm not in a rush to help you. I'm going to follow the steps in the protocol. So I feel like, It's very intriguing in the beginning because it does that probably better than maybe when you turn to your partner or you turn to a friend.

So that very initial piece. But yes, then it can get just really deep and addictive. And so I'm glad she wrote in. I would be really careful with this once in a while in a crisis situation. But again, like I said, a lot of therapists, if you're in a crisis, they'll be happy to. I mean, I don't want to speak for all therapists. I know that I do it. I'm here for my patients, you know, when they are in a crisis mode, but I'm here for them

in terms of like a long-term, do-it-yourself strategy. Like, I want you to learn to do this. I'm not here to do it for you so that eventually you don't need me as much anymore. Right. Well, you're a well-balanced meal. It's like if they're starving, they can have McDonald's. Yes. In the long run, they should have more patients. You know, you should have more patients.

That's what you are. Yeah. Totally. Totally. So great question. This is some scary times. I do get a little pit in my stomach when I think about all this stuff and what it means for human connection. It's tough. I see it in my kids and it's really hard as a parent to break that cycle because of instant gratification. Yeah. I want my kids to like. like be quote unquote happy. So sometimes that feels like letting them play whatever video game gives them like this dopamine hit in that moment that they're so excited that they're playing this video game. But I know in the long run that's not really what they need.

It's just kind of feels like survival. Totally. It's so funny that you just said that because I was having like Mike and I get it in like an ongoing TIF. because Ronnie is not yet neutered. And so he continuously humps my leg. And Mike is like, you cannot let him keep doing that. And I'm like, I just want him to be happy. I just like feel bad.

Like you guys like the urge. I don't know what else he's going to do. Like I just feel like I want him to be happy. Like obviously that's not the appropriate way for him to do that. I'm like, oh, like he doesn't have any dog friends here. It's just the two of us. We're kind of low energy. like makes out.

He's like, no. Oh my God, I'm dying. Pretty disgusting. That is like the dog equivalent of like me letting my kids play video games. Like just. Because he's watching the dog. He's like, can you push him off of you? And I'm like, I don't want that.

He's like, it'll be done soon. He's enjoying himself. Oh my God. Mike's like, you know, getting a little uncomfortable slash jealous. Perhaps. Perhaps, yeah. I just want him to be happy. But yeah, boundaries. It's so true. Whether it's a dog or a child.

That's why, I mean, it seems like, again, not to compare dog parenting to parenting, but I feel like probably, I would imagine the hardest thing about parenting is that there's like these two things that are kind of going against each other of like your child's immediate happiness and what you know is best for them and probably you overall. you both have to sit through their discomfort. That's my biggest parenting tip. And maybe you can use it for Ronnie too, is that it's good for your children to learn how to be uncomfortable. And I struggle with this every day. Like that's my mantra to myself. It's good for your children to learn how to be uncomfortable. And it's really hard. We want to keep fixing it because it's uncomfortable for us.

So first, we need to learn how to be uncomfortable so that we can allow them to be uncomfortable. Yes. That makes a lot of sense. So if you can be uncomfortable yourself, you're more able to be uncomfortable with other people's discomfort. Yes, exactly. Comfortable with everyone being uncomfortable.

Yes. And then we can all just stop needing so much, so many different ways to fix everything. Just immediately. Yes. All right. Let's move on. A, betches, does you want to read this one? Yeah, I will read this.

Hi, ladies. Love the podcast. I'm very grateful for both of you. I'm writing in to gain advice on an ethical dilemma. I'm 28 years old, and a few years ago, my parents got a divorce because my dad was cheating. After everything came out, I found out he was essentially cheating on my mom the entire 25-year marriage. My dad has done nothing, quote, wrong to me, specifically. specifically, but I can't help but truly hate seeing him, talking to him, et cetera, even though

I know I love him. How wrong is it to be upset with someone if they wronged someone close to you, but not you? Thanks. My mom deserves better. I like this question because I think it applies to this situation, but a lot of different situations, I think where someone has done something wrong to someone you know, but not to you. I do think it feels tricky ethically because they haven't done anything to you,

but you kind of know that they're capable of doing this in general. Totally. This really is one of those evolutionary, like psychological mechanisms that we have as humans. Because, you know, when we were evolving, we evolved as tribes. and the tribes that were the most cohesive, the tribes that were the least selfish and the most like all for one, one for all were the ones that beat out the selfish tribes, the ones that only cared about their own wounds and their own pain. So we've really evolved to this place where there are these moral concepts. like there's a phrase that I always think about that morality blinds and binds. So it's like that is what we have evolved to be.

So even though if something wasn't really didn't happen to us, we do feel this tendency to be protective over other people, even though it doesn't logically make sense. And even sometimes when it's something that, you know, this happens in, this starts in like fifth grade. You know, like when so-and-so said something behind so-and-so's back and now you feel like you need to protect that. You can't talk to that person anymore, even though you probably did that yesterday to somebody else. Like you probably talked behind someone else's back. Or even like I feel like you feel like this way about celebrities, like when you find out they've done something wrong, you're going. I don't really like you anymore.

Yeah, there's literally shirts that are like, you know, team whoever. Right. Like you pick a side. Team Jen, team Angela, whatever. Yes. Totally. You pick aside. It's very ingrained in us to pick a side.

I mean, look, this is, I'll come back. That's like the big picture philosophical piece of this. This is obviously a little closer to home. Yeah. And it does feel, I think, in her situation, and I'm just going to normal. her feelings of wanting to be angry or feeling angry at her dad is I'm sure he lied to her throughout that time. I'm sure he said he was in one place and he was someplace else. And there were moments where he wasn't being honest and truthful or maybe spending time with his

mistress that he wasn't spending time with them. Like there's more to it. I do think there is an aspect, you know, when you cheat, that you are bringing that untrustworthiness and lying into the family dynamic in some way. And you're kind of taking this picture that this, you know, that the person who wrote in is 28 years old. She probably had a sense of what her family was that is now completely, you know, she's completely having to revisit what she thought of is her whole family structure or like the whole structure that everything that she could think of growing up,

that maybe she thought was one way, which is now another, which I think also kind of throws you into a little bit of a, of a crisis of self. Totally. And I think that happens for most people in one way or another, like their picture of their, like when you're growing up, you're in a bubble of whatever your home, your life.

I mean, you spend time at friends' homes or other people's and you see how things are to an extent. But I do think there's that moment where you're like, oh, that was weird or like, ah, that, you know, kind of burst the bubble of what I thought. The idyllic version of my childhood is for some people that happens when you're 10, for some people that happens when you're 35. And it is hard to realize that like what you thought everything was. you know, is different or like there was kind of a lie going on or a falsehood. And maybe her mom

was part of it. Maybe she totally was in the dark. But I'm sure there was some stuff that she was in denial of too. Like this is this is really tough. That's why I do think it is we can talk about this next time. But it is really important, I think, to be as honest as you can with your kids and your family growing up within reason. Like I was going to say, maybe we'll talk about it next time. Brooks was asking me a lot of intricate birds and bees questions over the weekend. Okay. Which maybe we'll talk about another time.

But it's so hard to kind of straddle that line between like, I don't want to lie to him. I want him to know the truth. So he's not like delusional. But I don't, I want to protect his innocence and his childhood and like not get him, you know, ahead of himself in terms of his mind thinking about things that it might not be ready to think about. So I think that, you know, kind of plays into this with a parent where you're having these complicated relationship dynamics and you want to protect your kids so you lie to them or hide from them. But yeah, as far as hating her dad or feeling really angry towards her dad, I totally normalize that.

I think it's just part of human nature. And maybe it'll help to talk with him about it. I find that that has helped me in these types of situations to just kind of let him know how she's feeling. Right. And let him, maybe he can apologize for lies that he told her. Maybe they can have a more honest conversation about where he was at or why he did that. Yeah.

And I mean, I guess is there resolution to that? Because she's like, I don't really want to talk to him. I hate seeing him. And it seems like a lot of the anger lies and the loyalty of the loyalty to her mom. Because she signs it, my mom deserved better. Right. So it's sort of like an anger on behalf of someone. And maybe a feeling of you're not the, you're not, you're a person who could, who could and did do this to someone that I love. Yes. Yeah, that's a big part of it too. If you're capable of this type of extensive lying for 25 years, like maybe I just can't trust you. Right. Where do you go? I guess where do you go from there? Yeah. Her. My, I think she, I know she, I know, she doesn't want to. I get it. It's so awkward. It's uncomfortable. But I think she needs to talk to him.

And I don't know that anything that he says is going to change. But sometimes I think when someone, even like we're talking about, like the, you know, team Jen or, you know, whatever. Like, if you hear the story, if you spoke to the real people, you might feel less divisive on it. And I'm not saying her dad's going to say something and she's going to be like, oh, now I understand why you're and cheating for 25 years. But maybe there is something that would make you feel just a little bit more like he's a human and not just in this category of like cheating, you know, sociopath who's capable of that. And maybe it won't, you know, it's possible that it won't help.

But I think just as maybe a life lesson of like instead of writing someone off, especially if they're your father to allow them to say whatever they have to say. And maybe he has no excuse or nothing, but he's just like remorseful and that makes you feel a little bit better or he explained, you know, just kind of can say this was a big mistake or I, you know, understand how it could have hurt her. Because she might be a little bit in denial of how that may be affected her relationship with him, 25 years of having another relationship like that, I don't know. That's got to affect something to do with the two of you. It has to have manifested somewhere. And I mean, it's tough because

it's not the kind of thing where I think he could say, I'm sorry, and then she would just get over it. There it is, does feel probably not obviously the same extent as being cheated on yourself, but a sense of, I can't just let this go, even if you say sorry. So maybe it's just accepting the fact that it would take a while to get back to a place with her dad, again, assuming he's willing to work on it and has, yeah, and has empathy for what you're going through and trying that you, that it might take a while to get back to a place where you feel that you don't harbor the, like, strong resentments and anger towards him. And I think you'd kind of, that would kind of be like, have to be accepted by both of you. Right. And it might matter how he's handling it with her mom. You know, I don't know how he's

handling that, but maybe, you know, how he moves forward. A lot of times after there is a betrayal like this, the behavior after how you repair, how you move forward, how you handle being able to sit in those hard conversations where she can express her anger towards him, that can be reparative, too. You know, like if he can tolerate and not only tolerate, like the same way I deal with couples that are, have, you know, infidelity. It's not just like, okay, it's your job to forgive or, you know, it's your job to be in the doghouse forever. It's like checking back in. How are you feeling today about this?

Are you still feeling angry, leaning for the father to lean into those uncomfortable emotions and check in with her? And maybe she has, you know, things that she would like him to do to repair with their mom. I don't know, but opening the door to conversation and allowing him to do whatever little bits he can to repair, I think would be helpful, hopefully. Yeah. Do you ever get people in therapy, like parent child in therapy? No, not really. Not adult parent child for the, actually, that's not true. I've had a handful, but it's usually more like, when they're living in the same space together. Right. And there's like tension in the home or poor behave, like there's, because it's so easy to just avoid it after they're grown and they're out.

It feels so hard to want to, unless it's in your face every day, like a kid that's not, that's using drugs in your house or not coming home at night or being disrespectful. usually people just take the route of least resistance, which is like, okay, we call me when you can. Right. When you feel better. We're just not close. We're just not that close. Yeah.

Unless it's in your face where someone's like slamming doors and those are the people, those are the parent children that come in, not usually when they're, they could just avoid it if possible, which is kind of sad. But that's the reality of what I've seen. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that was helpful. give us an update. And she says, how wrong is it to be upset with someone if they're wrong? Someone else close to you, but not you.

I think in this scenario, not wrong. Yeah, in this scenario, I think it's really totally, I normalize it. And I think in some ways, like it's coming from her. Sounds like it's not coming from the mom, which is oftentimes where it would come from. Right. Like the mom, you know, being angry and kind of wanting the child to be angry on their behalf. Like, this is genuinely coming from you. I think it's a natural emotion, especially when it's coming genuinely from her own heart and not being like pushed on her. So I would, yeah,

allow yourself to have that. And I think to have a conversation with your dad about it, if you have any interest in at some point retaining a relationship. Yeah. All right. Let's do some intentions. All right. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I always love your advice. and could really use some about my current work situation. I started a new job a few months ago, and after a difficult negotiation, settled for a salary that is around $20,000 less than my last job and is quite frankly proving difficult to live off of.

I hadn't been working for approximately six months prior and accumulated some debt as a result. At the interviews, I told my employer that I would have a really difficult time living off of what he was offering, but he would not budge, as he told me he quite literally could not offer more. as it is a small law firm of less than 10 people and we do mostly public interest work, I believed him. At around the same time, they hired somebody else who was in the same year as me in law school

and we have become close. Today, he and I started talking salaries and I found out that he is making a salary that is 54% more than me. Not that she calculated or anything. I am absolutely fuming. I feel so manipulated by my boss and I literally cannot look him in the eye. obviously I need to renegotiate my salary and we have a three-month review coming up. But I need an intention to help me go to work every day knowing my boss would deceive me into thinking he could not offer more.

I feel undervalued and so ashamed that I allowed myself to be so naive as to believe he had no more to offer me. I don't trust my boss anymore and I have so much resentment over the sacrifices I've made to live off my current salary and the daily stresses I have over making ends meet. Since it's a small team, I have to work closely with my boss every day and being around him currently and enrages me. It's quite frankly getting in the way of my work because I find it hard to put energy into my files and do the work for my boss knowing that he has taken advantage of my trust like this. By the way, I know I sound really dramatic. L.O.L. I'm just genuinely really, really pissed about this, and I only just found out today. Any advice you can offer to help me get through the next few weeks until our salary review would be so helpful. Sincerely, a bad at negotiating batch.

Yeah, this is kind of infuriating. I mean, look, I, I, I would, would be really pissed. Especially I think what comes to mind for me is like the male-female dynamic and thinking that maybe that has something to do with it, men getting paid more than women. But what's interesting is maybe this was like a test of some sort, you know, like if she is a lawyer. Right. Like if she's a lawyer, like, are you going to fight? Are you going to be able to like assert yourself?

Are you going to be able to say, hey, I'm not taking any less than this or, you know, kind of bluff to maybe the other guy did some of that. Maybe he was like, well, I'm not going to take anything less than this. And then they came up to it. The person who has more power in a negotiation is the person who's most willing to walk away. Yep. So that could be a very big part of it. One thing I will say as a business owner, former business owner, something stood out to me in what she was talking about when she was negotiating that you really should never do. And that's, she told him that, she told that she would have

the employer that she would have a really difficult time living off of what he was offering. That's not how you, that's not the best way to negotiate. You should always negotiate by saying why you're worth more to the company. The company doesn't care how, you know, what, again, at the end of the day, it's a business. They don't really care if it's harder for you to live off of the salary. They care about like whatever is going to be the most beneficial to the company. That's the capitalist society we live in. I'm sorry. So to negotiate by saying this isn't enough for me to live off of well or this is less than my previous salary, that's not really a strong argument to the person. If she negotiated by saying, I'm worth all this, I've, you know,

this is my proven track record of closing these deals or, again, I don't know exactly what she does. And this is how I'm going to be worth so much more than the amount that you're going to be paying me to the company. I think that would have been a stronger argument. And, I mean, in negotiations, both sides are trying to get the lowest or the highest number available. And she took the job at the lower number. So again, I'm not saying that I wouldn't be irritated. He said he could not offer more. So maybe he could not offer more to you.

Right. Right. Yeah. I agree. And I do think especially because if this was like a sales job or a law job or if this was a job as like a nurse or something, I might be more irritated because I think, like you said, using the negotiation tactic of like, I can't live off of this probably showed like a certain weakness in there that then made him think, okay, well, I'm not impressed with her negotiation

skills here. So maybe she, I am going to only offer this top amount or maybe there was something in there in this particular field that didn't feel like you said, that, you know, wasn't giving the best impression of her ability to, you know, be assertive. And here's the thing. Just because someone's at the same level as you, because she graduated law school at the same year as someone, that doesn't mean you have the same skill level or that you're the same. Again, I'm not, I don't want to insult her, but I'm saying that doesn't mean that you're the same value to the company. Right. Yep.

It could. I mean, again, it could be just that she's not a good negotiator or it could be like maybe there's something in her in her skill set that she could work more on. If I were going to go into the three-month negotiation and I would her, or her, I would list all of the ways that I'm valuable to the company and advocate that you want more. And then say, if I don't really feel valued here, I need to find somewhere that values me at the rate that I was looking for. I mean, she says that she took a $20,000 pay cut.

So I'm assuming that she's gaining something else because usually you don't take a pay cut without gaining something else, whether it's better working hours or something else. Like at the end of the day, there's an amount someone's willing to pay you, an amount that you're willing to accept. And if those two don't meet somewhere on the axes, then the job, you're not working there. Yes. I think there's a lot of lesson you're right to be learned here in terms of, you know, the field. the way that you would communicate in your personal life is very different than the way that you're going to communicate in your professional life. And that is really hard because she was kind of doing the whole like, this is going to be hard for me. And that really didn't pay off,

like you said. But yeah, I think as far as an intention for moving forward, sticking it out, kind of changing her mindset and it's like not looking at the work that she's doing as it's like, work for this person and looking at it as it's like work for her and her future and opening up the doorway to being able to negotiate in the way that you're describing, like being able to negotiate with power and being able to say, I did X, I did Y, I did Z, I did it independently, I didn't need it, whatever, like, I would use this as fuel to fire your passion to be able to show up at that three-month review exactly the way you're telling her to show up. Show up with, you know, these are all the things that I've done over the last three months.

These are all the reasons why I will not accept less than X amount of money. And then you'll also have that confidence and you'll have that resume and you'll be able to go elsewhere. If have the power, like you said, you know, the most powerful person in the room is the one who's willing to walk away. So the intention is. this hard work is for my future. Patience will open the doorway out.

So work hard. Be patient. It's three months. It's not three years, which I think you can withstand. And then if you work hard for those three months, it's going to open up that doorway for you to either play hardball with negotiations and let them see what they're going to be missing.

Like when this is for anyone who's working in a job that they're not, they don't feel they're getting compensated the way that they want to. Make yourself indispensable. Work hard to the point where they, if you leave, it's going to be a big loss for them. That's how you get them to, like you said, they're going to offer more money to the people that they think are going to be really serving their financial interests. So you dialing it in and pouting and, you know, not working hard is only going to, end up biting you in the ass in the long run when it comes time to renegotiate.

I know it's hard. It's not for him. It's for you. Good intention. And I also again, yeah, it's not for him. He doesn't own the law firm. And whatever number he was told to give you, if that was the case, might have been something that was given, a number that was given to him.

So I wouldn't take it, I wouldn't take it personally. Yeah, that's true too. Yep. Okay. Good lesson learned here. Indeed. Let's do some triggers. You want to read our first one?

Okay, yeah, I will read the first one. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana. My fiance and I have been together for six years and have just completed our first year of living together, which has been really wonderful in many ways and definitely a learning experience for us both. Generally, I do most of the meal planning, grocery shopping, and cooking for us. Recently, I can't stop noticing that whenever I mentioned something to him, either in person or via text, such as I'm going out to get groceries, or I prep dinner for us, or I packed up a lunch for you. He will often reply with, nice, exclamation point, or yum, exclamation point, rather than

thank you for doing that, or I appreciate you so much or anything along those lines. I find myself getting more and more triggered by these automatic responses. I understand that there's probably not much thought behind the words, nice and yum, but that's the annoying part. I don't particularly enjoy doing any of these tasks, so it kind of makes me feel like my effort is taken for granted. I've mentioned to him how I feel about it a few times, but he keeps saying it anyway. How triggering is this actually? Am I being crazy? Thanks. Find a new adjective, please. Betch. Okay. I also appreciate a good thank you, so I can understand being triggered by these things, especially if she, I think the important part of the email is that she says she does.

doesn't like doing them. Because it is the case. Sometimes it's like someone enjoys doing something and the other person doesn't necessarily feel as grateful because they're like this person would be doing this anyway. They like, you know, they like making dinner and they like her own grocery shop. Sounds like she doesn't like to do this and she does it a lot more than her partner. This is coming out in a lot of resentment. Yeah.

Which I think she should address. Yep. Instead of just being silently. Maybe it's not that she wants more things. Maybe she wants him to go grocery shopping sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, so she said she already said this and he keeps doing it.

So that is also annoying. Yeah. Like the first advice is like, let him know how you feel. I think she let him know how she feels and he's doing it anyway. And it's almost like she just wants a few more words. Like she just wants. And I do. So easy to say thanks.

I appreciate it. Yes. It's not that hard. And there's something. It's a little uncomfortable. for him. And like you said, sometimes the thing that makes you feel appreciated is the thing that's a little bit uncomfortable for the other person to do. Like, yum, exclamation point for some reason feels like I'm acknowledging it, but I'm not like being vulnerable enough to say, thank you so much. I really

appreciate you doing that extra bonus points. I know it's annoying. Or like, I know you don't really like to do it. And I really, like, I think that's what she is leaning towards wanting is some acknowledgement of like, this sucks and you're doing it anyway. Yeah. And I would say, you keep, I would, when he, next time he does it, I would say, remember that thing we talked about? Yes. You just did it again. Yes.

I would, in the moment. Like, especially if it's in person, like, if he does it in person, nice. You could be like, okay, do you have a minute? Like, can we talk about this? you know, I told you, I need, like, I really don't like doing these things and I do them. So either one of two things, like I need to really feel like you appreciate and understand that I don't like to do this and I do it anyway. Or maybe you can just do it. Right.

Or maybe we could set up a schedule where if it's really uncomfortable for you to give me those extra words, then maybe we should just switch off because I really don't like. doing it and it would be great if I didn't have to. Yeah. I do think just like getting in someone's head and letting them know this sucks and I appreciate it. Like perfect example. Oh my God, this was a shit show. On Friday, Jeff and I were trying to figure out dinner and I was like running around doing a million things. And I told him, I'm going to the store. Do you want me to get whatever it is. And he sent me a text that was like, I thought said, I have chicken, just get breadcrumbs and whatever else, and I'll make chicken. So I went to the store. I bought all this stuff. I got the breadcrumbs. And then I forgot on the checkout, the self-check, I left the breadcrumbs there.

And I went home and I didn't have the breadcrumbs. And so he was like on the way home. And I was like, I'm sorry. I forgot the breadcrumbs. Can you go back and get them? Then he goes back and he was like slightly irritated, goes back to get them, brings them home. And then he's like, where's the chicken? And I was like, I thought you said you had chicken. He was like, no, reread the text. And I must have read the text like quickly. And I thought he said he had it. But he didn't. He got nothing. So he had to go back out again and get the chicken and he was like huffing, you know, like, irritating. So there was that urge to be like, you know, it's not that big of a deal. It's five minutes away.

Like, you know, why do you have to, you know, huff and puff? But I was like very much like, this is, he was out. I sent him a text. I'm like, this is so annoying. If I were you, I would be so annoyed that I had to go back. not once, but two times. Right. Like I was like really putting myself in his shoes about how annoying it was.

And at that point, it's like there's not much more you can ask for from a person. Right. Than like just saying, wow, this was really annoying. I really appreciate you doing this. So I think in these situations, it does go a long way to just be like, wow. Right. That's annoying. Every week you do this and you think to pack my lunch and you think of me before

you're going to bed at night or whatever the thing is, like, just letting, putting yourself in someone else's shoes is really, really powerful. Yeah. Even if you have to like suck it up a little bit and humble yourself. And it's so much easier than doing it yourself. Yeah. So much easier to be like, thank you so much. I really appreciate it than to go and have to spend an hour at the grocery store.

Yeah. Totally great. So I would be irritated too because that's really all she's at. She's not even asking him to do half of it. She's just asking him to just say, thank you. She's telling him exactly what she wants. Yes. Although here, so devil's advocate, because you said he's not even doing half of it.

I wonder maybe there's something else that he's, I see this a lot. There's something else that he's doing that maybe she's not noticing. Right. Because that happens. That's a good point. So he might kind of be like, well, you're not thanking me for this thing, which is I have this. I think I've shown this to you. I have it right here.

is fair play, card deck where you don't notice a lot of things your partner's doing, maybe because they're more like changing light bulbs. And you're just like, oh, that's great. The light bulbs work. I didn't really notice, like, how that got changed. Right. So maybe there are, if I'm thinking, if it's really not 50, 50, or like close to it or even or fair or whatever, then, yeah, you're right.

Like, the least you can do is take 30 seconds and send a genuine appreciation note. But maybe there's something underlying because she said it and he's still not doing it. Right. So that might be a question to ask if you're going to have the conversation. I think in relationships, people should just constantly say thank you to each other. Why not? Why not? Right?

So easy. I love doing that. I agree. Thank you for picking that piece of paper up off the floor. It's been there for two days. Really appreciate that. Yeah. Honestly, I think then because everyone I think feels underappreciated generally.

Like most people are not. Like I feel like I'm so appreciated all the time. So I do think it's so, and it's so easy. It's literally like three words. Thanks so much. Yeah. Thank you. There's a block.

People have a block. And a lot of times it comes from this thing. I'm not appreciate, I don't feel appreciated. So I don't want to give it to you. So that might be a block or there's like a vulnerability from childhood of like what it means to, you know, let someone know that they're doing a good job. Maybe they've used it. And against you in the past.

It can be complicated, but like you're saying, it should be easier than it is. Right. I agree. I think this is true. I think if she said that it annoys her and he still hasn't, he still keeps doing it. This is more triggering. This is like, I'd give it a six. All right.

I was going to give it a five. Five. Because it's not like he's not acknowledging it at all. He's saying, yum. That's true. He's not like, can you put it in my, can you put it? at the table. Like he is saying something enthusiastic.

Or like, yeah, toast the bread next time. It was soggy yesterday. I agree. That's, yeah, I'm going to, I'll agree with you on the five because he is, he is being enthusiastic. If you're not going to be thankful, enthusiastically peppy is a next best alternative. An exclamation point was there. So, yeah, four or five.

But yes. You know, another conversation is warranted. Great. All right. Let's do one more. I'll read it. All right. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I love you guys in the pot. I have a weird, triggered. I was so mad in the moment, but maybe it's over the top. My husband and I, along with my best friend and her husband, were visiting a cute small town. There's not a lot going on there, but a few nice restaurants, wine bars, and bookstores. So pretty limited options. I tried to get a reservation at a restaurant I really wanted to eat at, but I couldn't. So we hung out in a wine bar playing cards, what we figured out a plan. My husband went across the street to that restaurant. and tried once more to see if they could possibly accommodate the four of us without a reservation. They said they were full for the evening, but there's a table in the lounge that's available first, come, first serve, and it's empty. He came back to let us know that there's a table available. We had asked our server in the wine bar where they would recommend eating. She offered up three

suggestions, one of which we'd already eaten after lunch, and it was great. The second option was a cute restaurant across the street where I had wanted to go but couldn't get a reservation. And the third was a casual Mexican restaurant. The table of women next to us, was eavesdropping and chimed in, we wanted to ask that too, and joined our conversation about places to go in town. She asked about the spot we had lunch at. I raved about it and I told her it was delicious and the drinks were great. Then she asked about that place across the street. I told her they didn't have availability, but just one table open in the lounge and that's first come first serve and we were going to try to get it when we are done here. It felt like friendly bar chat. We didn't pay them much

attention after that. We paid our bill and walked across the street. And lo and behold, these ladies were sitting at the lounge table. Our lounge table. The main girl we had been friendly with looked at me sheepishly and the others didn't look up at all. I was furious, like probably irrationally angry. I don't know these women, but it felt like they took advantage of me and we got the short end of the stick for being friendly and conversational. Like they used me for intel on small town dining after I did all of the legwork. A reminder not to talk to strangers. To be fair, I mean, they didn't know me or owe me anything, but I would just never do this. Something that feels like they broke a code.

It reminds me of the episode of Friends with Monica shopping for the wedding dress. She helps a woman in the expensive shop, know where the sample sale is going to be to get a better deal. And then she shows up and steals Monica's dress before she can get to it at the sample sale. Anyway, how triggered can I be? This town ain't big enough for Girl Code. This is really annoying. I would be irritated at this.

I would too, especially if here's the thing. I don't blame them. If they, they'll say they're finished. They hear about this tip. I don't know if she said they were going to go there directly after. Did she say that? Or did she say that here's a tip?

Yeah. If they went there, I could see them saying, oh, I didn't realize, if they went there, they were sitting there. If she said,

oh, I didn't realize you were going to go tonight or I didn't realize you were coming over right now. Like, we're going to be done soon. I'm sorry for like swiping your spot. I would be okay. And I'd let her finish.

and I do whatever. It's annoying that she like kind of lost eye contact with her. Yes, that's the annoying part. I think if they were going to do it, like if that were me, I would be like, oh my gosh, I feel so bad. Or wow, sorry, I didn't know y'all were headed right over here or whatever it is. Like I definitely think the lack of, you know, acknowledgement of the fact that they walked in and they saw each other.

That part is really annoying. And they gave them the other option of the other place that they already went to for lunch. And you could have taken that option. Yeah. Would you do this? I'm trying to think. If you were the other people that you like heard about this table across the street. No way.

If I was, okay, here's the thing. I might do this if I just overheard the conversation and didn't engage. Right. If I was sitting there and I overheard, oh, there's a table available all across the street. I might even give Jeff the elbow and be like, go run over there and see if you can get it. Yeah. And then pretend you didn't know that that, right, that they gave you that. If I'm being honest, I might do that.

But what I wouldn't do is like act friendly and engage and like create like a relationship of sorts, like a little bit of like an interaction around it and then go steal the table. Like that I wouldn't do. That's dushy. Yeah. I'd be irritated too because now what are they going to do? Right. Go back to the place they had lunch at, I guess, or go for some tacos. Yeah.

That's annoying. And then to like just avoid her when they had been speaking before. I think the part that that is interesting to talk about is that she's like, that's what I get for talking to strangers. Because I don't, I do feel like a lot of, like we've talked about this when, you know, when I'm in New York City and I'm friendly to people. Like I don't, I think interactions like this make people feel like we're not on the same team. Like you're against me. Like if there's a stranger in the vicinity, it's like I'm home team, you are other team. And these types of interactions, especially how they handled it once they saw them walk in,

perpetuates that type of feeling of not like. Okay. Every man for himself. Yeah. It feels like it makes it feel like every man for themselves. And I guess the truth is, I'm saying I would do this if we didn't interact. But once you interact with people or even before, like, I'm not proud of the fact that I might be like, oh, I overheard there's a table.

Go get it. Like that's probably not my proudest moment. Right. But once you're engaging with someone and you're kind of like, oh, hey, friendly, now they're, like she's saying, there is a little bit of a code there once you're not like a nameless, faceless stranger. So I think that's why it's more triggering because it feels. like I'm letting you in and you're like using me.

Right. Or using that against me. And not even, again, not even acknowledging. I wouldn't be as, if they got there and she was like, I didn't really, even if she's lying, I didn't realize you guys were going to come right away. I'm so sorry. We'll be finishing up soon. I wouldn't like make her get up.

But I would feel like, all right, she acknowledges there was some sketchiness going on here. that she acknowledges that like this is my table. Totally. And if there were, let's say there were two tables and they sat down at the other table, they'd probably be like shooting the shit and hanging out. And oh my gosh, what a great place.

And thanks for the recommendation. Like they'd probably be friendly. Right. You know, like we just chatted 10 minutes ago across the street. And now you're ignoring the fact that you know who I am because we were just engaged in conversation five minutes ago. So that part is sketchy and annoying.

I'd be mad for like 10 minutes and then I'd let it go, but I would be mad for a little bit. I'd give it like a five and a half. Yeah, I would agree. This is. Maybe even a six depends how hungry I am. So true. Yeah, I could agree with that. Would you ever say anything?

Maybe I would be like if I walked up and I saw them, I don't know. I don't think, I don't know if I would, but I'd have the urge maybe for some passive aggressive. Right. Like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that they're sitting there. Right. You know, I don't know if I would really do that. I don't think I would do it. But yeah, I don't want to.

All right. Validated. Validated, triggering. I get it. All right. I think that's about all we have for today. Back next week. Back next week.

That's our time. Great work today. Betches.