Oversharing - Is It “Limerence” Or True Love?

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

Does love at first sight really exist? And what’s the difference between love and limerence? Jordana and Dr. Naomi start the show with a conversation about the concept of limerence and why romantic obsession doesn’t always lead to lasting love. Then an emailer writes in to ask how to address changing your pronouns when you’re in a committed relationship. How do you deal with a partner who isn’t comfortable with the idea of change? This week’s Betchicist question comes from a listener whose fiancé comments on other women’s bodies, despite requests to stop. Is it okay to regulate someone’s commentary, even if it’s a reflection of their own disordered thoughts? The intention-setting moment of the week is all about dwelling on everything you say and do at work, for fear of how you’re perceived. Is there a good way to let go of these anxious feelings? Finally, they answer a pair of Triggered submissions about a noisy cat and a poorly-timed pregnancy announcement. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham and I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. So great to be back after a long weekend from when we're recording this. Nice to get that extra day.

It makes you kind of feel like all days, all weeks should be. four days on three days off and then you get the short week at the on the on the back end of it so that's nice too exactly to get into today's we wanted to talk about on today's episode so you have been featured in a few different cosmo articles um recently which is amazing I'm so glad cosmo was bringing even more of your wisdom to the masses yeah they're fun and I think one of the the most recent one was titled, seriously, though, is love at first sight, a real thing. And in the article, they referenced this thing called Limerance, which I had been hearing a lot about recently. So I know it's big on TikTok. And then Sammy, uh, Betch's co-founder,

my friend Sammy, had mentioned it to me as like an interesting topic of discussion. And then I, so I did a little, little deep dive. And I was like, this feels really familiar. It started as a shallow dive, and then as it started to hit the nerves, the dive got a little deeper. Right. So basically, I guess what limerence is is sort of like this unhealthy obsession with, with, it doesn't necessarily even have to be someone you're dating. I think it could be like anyone that you kind of develop like sort of an irrational, like, positive affect for that you're like kind of convince yourself that you're in love with. But I guess it was I guess it's a cool name because it seems like the name for like the unhealthy version of that.

Yes. Yes. Well, when I think of limerance, I think it's, you know, it could the feeling behind it is a part of could be a part of a healthy type of falling in love, except it's different because there are, you know, some aspects. And you said you did a deep dive so you could tell me what you found there. think a lot of people who are falling in love may have parts of that where you're thinking about the person a lot and you know you want to be with them all the time i'm sure you know women i talk to women all the time

that have issues in their female friendships because when someone gets a new boyfriend they kind of fall off the face of the earth right they want to obsessively spend time with this person or you know they are obsessively talking about this person i have the same i hear that same thing all the time i can't even go out to dinner with my girlfriend who has a new boyfriend because all she does is like, oh, Josh had this for lunch and it was so good and we, you know, whatever. They're just like an obsessive, needs. Like smitten kind of thing. Yes.

So I do think in some ways it is part of the chemical cocktail of falling in love. But when that's all there is to it, when there is no depth, when there is no true intimacy, when there is no dose of reality, how does this person fit into my life? How does this person handle my emotions? How does, you know, the real part, then that's what the distinction is, I think, between limerence and falling in love. Right, in a real healthy, normal way. Well, maybe I'll ask you this question.

When you said that you've experienced this, how would you say it was different than what you experienced, like after you first met Mike where it really did turn into love versus where it was just like what you would identify as limerance for yourself. Right. Well, I think the difference is when I think of my relationship with Mike versus, you know, other quote unquote situation type things that I had been in is with Mike, it was like a real intimacy, I think. And it was like it turned into like that into like, you know, I really feel like,

like I feel like I really know him. And when you're, but when you're just meeting someone for the rest time, you don't really know them. But at least you're like, it's becoming. a more intimate relationship. Whereas with these other things, I think there was so much more of like, I'm putting this person on a pedestal.

I think they're perfect. I mean, I still had that like that a little bit with him in the beginning where the anxiety about the texting. I think that's like kind of normal in the beginning, just generally. But it was more, I think the thing that differentiated it

and the thing that really makes it toxic, they were saying, because like limerence on its own is like, fine because if one of two things happens. So limerance is fine if like if the feelings are reciprocal, like bliss. And then like, um, I think eventually it fades as you like actually get into, you know, the secure attached phase with the person and more used to them. Like most people aren't like giddily ignoring all their friends two years into a relationship

and obsessively thinking about like their text messages. So that's one way I think that it goes away in like a healthy way. the other way is an outright rejection of like the person sort of saying I'm not interested. And I think that's another way to make it fully go away. But what I had, which I think made it last so much longer and feel so much more like toxic, is this like mixed signal type situation where I was never like the person was never fully committing to me but also never like fully rejecting me. So it'd be like a hot and cold situation, which I think makes the whole thing that much more addictive.

And also it becomes that's what makes it like a drug. That's what makes it like a, you know, quote unquote love addiction when it's when it's that intermittent thing. Because I do think if I had just been rejected by this person, I would have gotten over it. Or if I had just been, you know, if they were my boyfriend, then I would have eventually gotten to know who they really are and not had this image. And I think there's this thing in your head of like they're this perfect person because you don't really know them that well. Right. If you knew them, no one is perfect.

So if you really knew them like on a deep real level, you would know that like anyone that they are flawed. Right. And sometimes you can even, you know, avoid going there because of the fear that this thing feels so it's like an obsession. I don't want to give it up. so I almost don't, I'm not going to push to go there because I don't necessarily want to shift this. It feels, you know, it's interesting, right? Because you say it's like, it's like a drug. And it literally is.

It's probably low serotonin. And low serotonin is the same thing that happens when people have OCD. They have low serotonin. So it creates this, that chemical cocktail creates this kind of obsessive. obsessive quality. And instead of obsessing about washing your hands or, you know, getting sick, you're obsessing about this person and looking to that obsessive object to soothe, you know, your chemistry. And like you said, it's almost like, you know, the other Cosmo article was the one about the three-monther.

And the reason why the three-monthers are so common and so intoxicating is because of that intermittent reinforcement that you're describing where it's like the person's not fully giving you the security that you're describing that then makes you feel calm but they give you enough that it feels like oh I'm so close I'm so close I'm almost there but then maybe two days later they don't answer they withdraw a little bit and now it it pulls so it almost like doesn't allow you to sink into in the direction of real love. So I think a lot of these three-monthers probably are like this limerence thing where you're like obsessive, obsessive,

but the person, either whoever's feeling the limerence or the person usually on the other side, you've been in this situation. The limerent object is the person who's like the object of your limerence. Yeah. Right. So the limerent object in the case of a three-monther might be holding you at enough of a distance that they're not allowing that security to form and they're not allowing it to turn into a real deep love, I see all parts of you connection, which keeps it keeps you. And it is,

it's a biochemical, you know, and it's something like noraphenephrin is another, is another substance that's released during attraction. And that's like a fight or flight. That's the same thing that we, like if you almost get hit by a car or something like that, or if you're in a danger situation. So that keeps us alert. That keeps us, that's that thing of like, I'm very, that thing that feels good. Like, I'm very engaged. I'm very alert. I'm very, you know, um, juiced, like people that are looking for that juice. So it's, it is like this little cocktail of hormones. Yeah. That, um, that isn't always in the case of limerence healthy. If it doesn't start to go down that path like it did with Mike, but maybe it didn't with Mr. X, whoever that is,

go down a path towards some type of true emotional intimacy, vulnerability, seeing the flaws. Well, they were saying, I mean, some of the deep dives I was doing, it's sort of like the reason you might almost be engaging in this like long term limerent activity because you almost want to avoid intimacy, which just seems like counterintuitive, because you sort of know in some level that it won't ever work out so it can be in some ways sort of just like a way of keeping yourself in this like situation where you're not even getting too close either because you know the other person's like eventually going to reject you or reject you when it gets to that point where it's almost at that intimate phase. Yes. And I talk to a lot of people where they'll say,

you know, I want a boyfriend. I want a boyfriend. This is, you know, women that are, you know, heterosexual. I want a boyfriend. I want a boyfriend. And then they keep finding guys that are like pretty good and interested and, you know, want a second and a third and a fourth date and call and text and are responsive, then they kind of are disinterested. And it's like, do you want the boyfriend? Do you want the actual boyfriend, the guy who's sitting on the couch with you doing the thing? Or do you want like the chase, the chemical excitement of the chase of the boyfriend? And for someone to want you that kind of holds you at a distance. And a lot of people, after exploring it in therapy,

after all, they might realize, you know what? I don't know that I actually want a boyfriend. I just want to, you know, date men that kind of, it's a little bit of a chase. It's exciting. And then I'm not ready for the real thing, which is okay also, you know? I wonder, because there is this sense,

if there's certain personality types who are just like a little bit more interested in that. And that might be me to an extent where it's like, like sometimes I feel so secure in my relationship that I almost crave being like fucked with a little bit, which seems like just to say it out loud seems really unhealthy. Right. I think I was talking about this on a U-Up episode recently where like I went on a girls trip and then like I called Mike like the next. We like didn't really, we hadn't really texted that much the night before and then I called in the next morning and he didn't answer.

And then he he called me back like an hour later. And I was like, what is going on? This is so hot. Like where are you? Are you playing a game? Because it's working. Right. And I got, you know what I mean?

You get like a little bit of that like. And I think is it like is that super unhealthy or is that, can that be like okay in somewhat of a normal dose? Because I'm like, it feels like wrong that I find this kind of hot. Right. Right. Well, I think it was just like that juice that we're talking about. and it literally is a chemical thing. Like if you would have texted you, good night, love you, or whatever, good morning in the

morning, you would have woken up and you would have just thought about like what you were going to have for breakfast or what your plans were for the day. But because you didn't get that reassurance, it was like Mike was on your mind. And I don't know if there was some actual thoughts of like, is he with another woman or if it went that far or if it was just like, it feels exciting to be thinking about my partner a lot again. Right. Like that feels just the thought of like instead of thinking about like what we're going to do on our girls day, I'm thinking about him. I'm wanting him to call me. I'm wanting to hear his voice. I'm wanting that connection. And maybe there was just some excitement in like wanting that

again or not taking it for granted. It's almost like the way someone gets if there's, you have a near death experience or somebody, you know, gets really sick or has a car accident and all of a sudden you're like obsessed with them and you're so grateful for them and you're so present in their you know I think there's something to be said for that idea of just like having that little chemical moment of fear right yeah no I think that helps you like appreciate what you have although it's funny when I was dating I always found that my friends who were always in relationships were like more turned off by that behavior and I was always more turned on like and that's why they were always in these like long, because if they were dating someone and they would like not hear from

them for like an hour, they were like, okay, well, like, F that person. Right. Whereas I would be like, now I need them even more. Yes. I think with this, the limerence concept, there is a bit of that that it is coming from an unhealthy place or that it is coming from, you know, a traumatic experience that leaves you feeling like an insecure attachment. And so, you're not. And so, So maybe you're comfortable in that or that feels like it's, you know, it feels like home. Right. Right. So, you know, I do think, you know, not to say that you're not healthy because you're

experiencing that or that your relationship isn't healthy. But I do think that you're biochemically wired, I think, to feel engaged and juiced up and excited by the withdrawal of affection. for, you know, for whatever reason. Where, like you said, some other people, if they feel a withdrawal of attention, that might feel not good or that might make them feel angry or disconnected or less interested. So everyone's kind of coming from their own place with it.

Yeah. And I think part of, I mean, like, that used to be like the only way that I sort of activate was like in these relationships. So I do think that there is something that comes with like therapy and like, I think being at a point in your life where you value stability and like connection and like a real more meaningful deeper connection than that feeling. It's kind of like why do people binge drink in college five nights a week and then not do that later in life.

It's because they value different like you grow up and you're kind of like, yeah, that was fun at times or like, you know what I mean? That was a rush up and down maybe. But now I'm kind of looking for. I value the stability and security of like not being in that addiction more than the high of it. And I think that's sort of what helped me get to a place where, yeah, maybe that's like a little bit. I always have like a little bit of that inside me, a little bit of like that feeling. And I think that's okay.

But it's not like ruining my life. Right. And look, I think there are ways that couples can capitalize on that in a healthier way than like, like, don't answer my text and then you're going to get sex when I get home, you know, like you can capitalize that, capitalize on that by doing, and this is biochemistry too, doing things together that are new for both of you that are kind of outside of your comfort zone. It's like I always think of the bachelor effect. Like, why do these people fall so madly in love in six weeks? Because they're jumping out of a plane together and because they're

traveling together and they're exploring new cities together and they're doing these. these things that maybe are slightly uncomfortable or just a little bit anxiety provoking. So they're getting some of those like, you know, some of that chemical. But it's not because the other person is withdrawing or the other person is withholding emotion. It's just because they're in an environment that's creating that. And then they're able to connect and kind of, you know, deeply support each other and have that attraction and that attachment with each other within a context.

that causes some type of that biochemical anxiety. So you can, you know, for example, if you find that you're craving that with Mike when you're away, maybe you do something that is out of both of your comfort zones together as a, you know, kind of spice it up experience. Yeah, something that like external to produce the adrenaline, rather than like an internal turmoil. Right.

And I think recognizing it probably the first step. But I thought it was an interesting concept. I feel like it's nice that it has a name. Yes. because it does describe a very specific feeling that I think everyone has felt to some degree, probably some more toxicly than others. But I also think it's the same, and I know we have to move on, but last comment on this, I think it's the same thing that a lot of people, when they're dating, they're like chasing

that limerence feeling. They're chasing that, like, obsessive feel. Like, if I don't have that, then it's not love. You know, I think a lot of people feel like in order to feel love, you need to have that, like, obsessive quality, or maybe they felt that with some person in, you know, senior year of high school and it was limerance and it wasn't real deep love and it wasn't, it was like a fantasy. And now they're forever kind of chasing that thing again. Right.

Because it's like I saw, you know, the view from the top of the mountain and I'll never accept anything other than that. Yeah. A very like a lifelong sort of like feeling of like the spark of like I need to feel this spark, which the spark, I think, can often be just a sign of like a high anxiety, stressful relationship. Right. It's like the flip side of that. Good point, though.

All right, let's get into our episode. If you guys have an email, you can send it to oversharingabets.com. If you want to leave a voicemail, you can call 646-363-6-2-9-4 leave us voicemail. But let's get into today's episode. I could read the first oversharing email. All right. Go for it. Okay.

Dear Dr. Naomi and Jordana, I sincerely love the show and love your perspective each week. I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed the reminders that anxiety lives in my body to calm myself. Thank you for all that you do. I will get into it. Recently, I've been questioning my gender and how I present myself. As someone who is A-F-A-B assigned female at birth, I feel that there are some things I can't fit in with and reject about the expectations of women. previously I've worked to break down stereotypes of what women can do. Now I have been considering a neutral slate and using they slash them pronouns.

As a background, my boyfriend and I have been together about a year. We have a loving relationship consistently of healthy, calm arguments, and talk regularly about our future and long-term plans. I wanted to bring up a potential shift in the language we used to identify me, and it went worse than expected. He essentially told me that if this was something I wanted, it would change our relationship dramatically and probably end it. He felt as someone that identifies as straight, he wanted to be with a woman.

This was a really challenging conversation as I haven't made up my mind yet, but wanted to explore. So my question is, is it worthwhile to only be, quote unquote, out to yourself? Should I continue to seek clarity even if it ends our relationship? How can I be sure that this is the right decision, i.e., what if I end up rejecting that identity and the relationship ends over nothing? Should this be a deal breaker? Any thoughts you have would be great, since.

sincerely gender confused betch. All right. Since the emailer seems to be implying that they're still using she, her as of right now, we're going to refer to them as she, her throughout the rest of the discussion. This is an awesome question and I'm happy to help her tackle it. Unfortunately, I think there's more here than what we can help her with just based on what she's given us in the email. But what I do think is all the things.

we talk about in here in terms of like seeing where your feelings live in your body, I wonder, you know, I think it would be important for her to explore all the parts of her gender identity and which parts are working for her and which parts are not working for her as a bigger exploration. So I do think, yes, she needs to continue to seek clarity on this. And I do think it would be helpful for her boyfriend to be a part of that process in some way. But is it about, I guess my question for her would be, is it about the pronouns, right? Is that the part that she feels really strongly about?

Is that the part that she needs for him to accept? Or can she feel okay in herself with whatever else might be her way of identifying? So if she wants to dress a certain way, if she wants to talk a certain way, if she wants to engage in certain activities or hobbies or whatever it is, can she feel fulfilled enough with that or is it about the pronouns? And is he rejecting the pronouns or is he rejecting all the rest of that stuff that she wants to do to feel more comfortable in herself? And the other question is, is this about, you know, she said before, what did she say

about more of like a societal issue, I've worked to break down stereotypes of what women can do. So is this something that is for her because she wants to be, you know, present herself in a certain way or be free to just express herself in a way that she doesn't feel like is acceptable to other people or is this about making a larger statement and making a larger difference in general? So long story short, I think there's a lot of questions here in terms of what is it that she's really looking for? Because I don't think this is just about the pronouns. And that might be what he's focusing on as like, this is a deal breaker. Yeah.

And I think that it's kind of like, I can understand where if it came out of nowhere, he would be like maybe put off and maybe like need a minute to like think about it in a certain way. Because it is a, I mean, it is a big thing. It's kind of like it reminded me a little bit. Obviously, it's a totally different question about like a very different issue. But it reminded me a little bit about the person who was dating someone who wanted to quit his job and become a teacher. Now obviously, completely different issue or completely different, you know, lifestyle change. No, but I get what you're saying. It's like a change in identity.

It's a shift in terms of who you think you are who I've seen you. Right. Life I thought I would have. I don't think it's totally insane to hear, hear that from a part. and then be like a little jolted, maybe not give the most supportive response because you kind of, it can feel seemingly like it's going to be a big change for your future and what you're seeing. So I think I would cut him a little bit of slack and let him like maybe work that through in his own head. But I would say simultaneously exactly what you said. She definitely, if I were her,

I would definitely talk to a therapist about this. There seems like there's a lot to unpack. I don't think she needs to decide immediately. Like you said, like you can feel something, one minute and feel maybe a different way, a different minute. And so maybe she's brought this to him without fully coming to terms herself with what it means to her and what she actually really wants to do. And so I think it would be better to come back and revisit this conversation after she's done that work. Right.

I completely agree. I think just, you know, maybe even the way she approached it, which was, I don't know, it seemed like at least for him, maybe this was out of the blue. like I think approaching it as more of like a full picture of what is going on for her rather than just coming out of the blue with the pronouns when maybe there's, I'm sure there's more to it than that in terms of what she's looking to, you know, what would make her feel better about her experience on this earth. And I hope he's willing to be a part of those conversations and that process.

I think he probably, like you said, got scared. of like maybe what might this turn it, you know, what might happen down the road in terms of like, are you going to maintain your, you know, female body because I'm attracted to that? Or, you know, what's going to change in terms of our sexuality potentially? Like I'm sure his mind is running wild with where this may go down the road. Right. This isn't something that is just, I don't, I think it would be sort of naive for her to think that she could just bring up like, I want to be referred to as they, them over dinner one night

with no further discussion about why or what this means or how or what, you know, what her process is. With an immediate 100% supportive thing because that is a big thing. Again, I mean, do you think about the one of it that's just about a career, changing careers, which to me seems like a low, not even as big of a deal necessarily as this thing. I mean, some people might disagree. But where like I agree, I think that was the advice in too. Like, what don't you like? about this. I think if you start with like, I'm unhappy, this is how I'm feeling. And then maybe you can work on that together. Or, I mean, again, if you do, if she does do her own work on this and decide that's what she really wants and that's not something that he's interested in, then maybe the

relationship isn't the right relationship for you. Right. Again, I think this is a big process for her to explore for herself. And, you know, just looking at like, what are the moments that make up this decision. Like we always talk about like there's probably something that happens that creates a flood of intense emotion. If it's somebody that's saying you can't do X because you're a female or you shouldn't be wearing that because you're a female or why are you talking this way because you're a female, whatever those moments of, you know, emotional flooding or reactivity are becoming, I would recommend to her that obviously in addition to therapy that she just, you know, maybe even makes a little log of these moments that she has where she feels uncomfortable with she,

her. Like why? Where is that coming from? What's making you uncomfortable? Because it's, you know, I'm sure it's more than just the use of that. There's some implication about what you can do, what you can't do, what you should do, what you shouldn't do. So just paying attention to the little moments where she feels triggered might help her get a better understanding of the big picture of what it is that she's trying to do. And then she can communicate that to her boyfriend and say it's not that I want to transition to becoming male or maybe she does. And if that's what it is, that's what it is. But it's not necessarily that. It's just that in these moments, this is how I feel. Right. And I think that he'll take it a lot better that way. And also,

even regardless of if he does, let's say he doesn't take it a lot better that way or it's not working for him. I think that'll still, that's something she should do regardless of his opinion or what he's going to do. Because like, it should. It should. It should. The whole thing shouldn't even just hinge on if he's into it or not. It should be more like, I think she should work. It's very beneficial for her to work through that regardless of whoever her partner is, just for herself. Totally.

All right. Well, I love that question. It's definitely something that we haven't tackled before. Yeah, I thought that was a very good, interesting question. Let's do what batches is? Do you want to read this one? Yeah, I'll read this one. Dredana and Dr. Naomi, thank you for this podcast and your thoughtful responses.

I love listening every week and your content has helped me navigate and grow in my own interpersonal relationships. I'm writing about a triggered or a betchesist scenario, possibly trigger warning. In the past, my fiancé has commented on other women's bodies, and I expressed how this felt disrespectful, even if he's pointing out a hot actress in a movie or show, like I'm right here, and of course she's gorgeous, she's making millions. He eventually stopped, but fast forward to this weekend, he brought up how he wasn't attracted to other women at a dinner party we attended. because they, quote, unquote, didn't take care of themselves. Not because I'm engaged.

Just because of that. Right. Okay. He went on to talk about how he couldn't be with someone who let themselves go and used other ways to describe how they were generally overweight. He saw that I was uncomfortable, so he asked for my perspective. I mentioned that I appreciate how he takes care of himself, but again, expressed how uncomfortable it was to hear about other women's bodies,

especially because I had disordered eating when I was in college. The conversation became an argument when there were two separate issues. One, it's disrespectful to talk about other women's bodies, but I should not have downplayed my difficult relationship with food. Though I'm recovered and sought therapy, he didn't know if it affected me so deeply. Two, I can't regulate what is and isn't okay to gossip about, and I admit I vent to him a lot about my friends. For further context, I see a cycle of orthorexia in my fiance's family.

that's like obsession with healthy eating. So I understand why he talks about people's weight lifestyle like it's yesterday's news. I'm not defending the behavior, but I'm left wondering what I should have done differently. I felt like I hinted heavily to disordered eating and he felt hurt that I've never really talked about it. I still feel like it's inappropriate to talk about other women sexually, regardless if I'm triggered by how he isn't attracted to bigger bodied women. I don't want to be intimate with him immediately after this argument because we haven't apologized and talked about it. We generally have good communication and I'm the one who needs to work on expressing myself, but it's obviously bothering him and I don't know how to move on from this.

Thanks for giving this a read and I respect you both so much, not Scarlett Johansson. Okay. A lot to unpack here. Yes. It seemed like he was like a little gaslighting her. I was thinking the same thing. Her being upset with this very rash, because it's like the two takeaways are that I can't decide like what's appropriate and not appropriate.

and I should have disclosed my eating disorder soon. Yes. That seems like not at all giving herself any slack or appreciation for the fact that what he's doing is, I think, super disrespectful and annoying. Yeah. I agree. I think he was definitely like trying to shift the focus off of him. And maybe that was just, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that was his way of saying, like, I, I'm sorry, I didn't know this.

I wish I would have known it sooner. You know, like I maybe would have been more sensitive if you, would have told me. Maybe that's it, but it does sound like there was a little bit of a blame that she walked away feeling like, well, this was my issue that I didn't tell him sooner. But I do think that the whole, I could see why this is really upsetting to her that him saying, I could never be with someone who's let themselves go, which is basically like my love is not unconditional. Yeah. And he's saying that like frequently. It seems like he really wants to like drive home the point.

Right. Because to me, what other reason would he have for continuously saying this, even though she said it makes her uncomfortable to her? Like I almost, I could understand maybe more potentially if he was saying this to like a friend or something like that or someone in his family who shares these views. But she clearly doesn't. So to me, it's like, why tell the person that you are with that you couldn't be with like unless you really want them to know that this is like a big. priority for you. Right. And he's probably looking for some reassurance from her of like, don't worry, I'm never going to let myself go. So we can get married and you can spend the rest of your life with me and I will always look really good. Like maybe he's looking for her to just say because they're not married yet and he's committed and proposed and maybe feeling like, oh gosh, you know, I hope she doesn't end up like

these women at this table. He might be looking for reassurance from her. And she's kind of of like, I don't want to give you that reassurance. I want to be able to be who I am. Whoever I am. Yeah. Yeah. The other piece is like what is okay and not okay to gossip about? Because she's kind of like, well, if you talked about like how ugly their sweater was or if you talked about like how, you know, they have acne and like whatever, then that might be okay with her.

And that might be something that she's willing to talk about. some sort of other superficial critique of a friend. Right. But I do think that's different than complaining about a fight that you had or if someone has a negative maybe like personality trait that's bothering you. Right. For sure. I think he probably was turning this into like, well, you talk shit about your friends all the time and it's okay. But when I talk shit, now you're mad. Right. But clearly it's because she's feeling insecure about your unconditional love or she's feeling, and I guess that's the question is, you know, is it that you're afraid he's not going to love you anymore if you gain weight? Or is it that you are some feelings of

self-loathing or poor body image are coming back up for you when you hear him talk? Like, I think, and it's probably both, I would assume. Right. And what if you just think it's kind of like an icky way to talk about women? But I think that's when he will be like, well, how come you can talk shit and I can't? You know, like you can talk about her hair and how it's thinning or something like that. Yeah, well, if she's doing that, then maybe that is something she should probably evaluate. Right. And it sounds like maybe, because she writes, I vent to him a lot. Well, vent about your friend's personality and the way they're treating you is different than talking about the way they look.

Yeah. I don't think most people vent about like their friend's acne. Right. I can't even look at that. Like people vent usually when it's like, they're always late. it's so annoying or, you know, they're so cheap and I always have to pick up the tab. Like those are things that actually kind of affect you. I feel like that you would be venting.

Like if you're venting about someone's physical appearance, I feel like there's probably that's sort of, I think, I don't think you'd be writing this email. Totally. Yeah. Sure is what is okay and not okay to gossip about. And if it's like somebody did a thing that you thought was inconsiderate, that's probably a lot more okay to gossip about than somebody, something that they can't help about themselves that you just want to criticize for no reason.

Well, that's something you can work through. It's like someone, if I complain to you that I'm annoyed that my friend is always late, we can discuss, you know, like a way around, like there could be like some sort of solution-based discussion. If I complain to you that my friend has acne, I don't really know like what solution-based discussion that's going to yield. Right. And that's why this is probably upsetting to her because the idea that there would be a thing

about her that's out of her control that he finds so disdainful feels like a roadblock that you potentially couldn't move past. Right. Versus if he's like, I don't like it when you don't, you know, when you call me when I'm out with my friends. Okay. Well, I could like work on that. Right.

You know. Do you feel like there's maybe something where he's sort, again, I feel like he's doing this like weird gas lady thing where he's making it about the fact that she didn't tell him? Do you think he's, it doesn't sound like he's upset that she didn't tell him. him because he cares about her and and he would have acted differently. It sounds like he's afraid, he's annoyed that she didn't tell him because he's sort of annoyed that that might be an issue that she has and thus further exacerbating his fears.

Right. Right. I didn't even think about that, but you might be right on that. Which I don't want to like, I don't want to make her like spiral, like more anxious. But it just does seem like he didn't approach it in like a, I wish she would have told me like I would have been so much more like sensitive or I wouldn't have said those things. And I don't know if he said that doesn't seem like she's saying he said that. It sounds like he's saying that like, how could you not tell me this?

Like it's important for me to know. Right. I wonder. I don't think we'll ever know, but I do think it's a good question for her to say. Like, are you upset? You know, I don't know that he would tell the truth on that. I hope he would. But is it because you feel like there was like a withholding of intimacy there,

emotional intimacy and that, you know, this is a part of me that I never shared with you and you feel left out? Or is it because you're afraid that this is something that I'm going to continue to struggle with? Yeah, this is, I could see why this is something that's making her not want to be intimate with him because there's like a more conversation that needs to be had than just, you should have told me about this. And the question is what is okay and not okay to I don't think the her two questions I don't think are the questions yeah and I think that it's totally fair to say to anyone regardless of the reason they're doing it or whatever the thought is literally in any relationship I don't really like when when you comment in other women's bodies even I understand

that you might look at other women's bodies I'm not like offended by the idea of the theoretically of you thinking another woman is attractive but I don't need to hear it right I just I think it's a fair I think that's just a fair request of anyone. Even if you want to comment to your friends when I'm not there, fine, if that's what you want to do. But I do think he was almost like, okay, you don't like it when I say someone's hot. So I'll redirect it and I'll say someone's not hot. And these are the reasons why. Which is like not a good move.

Right. At least maintain the illusion of like, to me it's like, you know, we get this a lot on you up where it's like he's liking Instagram models pictures or he's commenting or he's following all these people. It's like, you could like it in your head. You could dislike it in your head. Right. And again, like, it seems like the purpose of you doing this is to give me like a warning. Right.

I agree. I think the fact that he was initially bringing up how beautiful women were on TV. And then she said, no, no. And then he had to bring it up in a different way about these other women who were not attractive to him. I do think there's something brewing there with him. he's feeling the urge to discuss maybe some fears about committing to someone forever whose body may change. And he's looking for some reassurance that it's not, but like, spoiler alert.

Everyone's body changes. Yes. Yeah. So either deal with it or don't get married because if you're committing to someone forever, she's definitely not going to look like this forever. Yeah. I think that's a very, this would be a very important one to hash out before you get married or to have a real, intimate conversation with. And it doesn't necessarily mean, again, I'm not saying he's like a monster. I think that like if he could approach this discussing his fears in a vulnerable, intimate way, like it can be worked out. But if he's just going to be like, don't get any weight or like, I'm going to be out of here. I don't think that that it's nice. It would be good to know that going in. 100%. And I agree with that. I think it would, again, and you always say this, whether it's like about

money issues that come up before a wedding or whatever these issues are, this is a great opportunity to have this conversation. And it is okay. And I think a lot of people, not to be stereotypical, but especially men before they get married, have these fears of like, I'm never going to be with another woman. This is, you know, this person is the only person I'm ever going to have sex with again or, you know, or maybe before committing to that. So I don't think it makes them a terrible person that he's having that thought or having that fear, but that's something that he's going to have to own up to himself about and kind of, you know, accept the reality. Work through on his end. Yes. And, you know, it's not going to be an easy thing for you to hear,

but it's better for him to say that than to make the comments, than for it to seep out with these comments that he's making. Right. And it probably is all leading back to some insecurity that he has. So even though he's making it about your insecurity, it seems like it's probably really more about his. I agree. All right. Well, I hope we get an update on that one.

Yeah, for sure. Let's do intentions. Ready. Okay. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. First off, I wanted to say, I love this podcast. I listen every week when I go to work in the morning. It has helped me in a lot of ways.

Thanks. I'm emailing because I'm running into this ruminating. slash overthinking issue. I obsess over wondering if I said the wrong thing or offended someone at work, constantly wondering how my coworkers perceive me. Ever since I've graduated college, my anxiety and overthinking have got a whole lot worse. Before a work social event, I get really nervous. After the event, I spent the rest of the day going over the things I said if I think it didn't go well. When I try to voice this issue to people in my life, they kind of brush it off like it's no big deal, but I can't help to think this comes from a bigger issue. Maybe insecurity? I overthink

thought about things in college, but not to this extent. I also didn't get nervous going into social events in college and consider myself an extrovert. I wonder if once I got into the real world, my confidence plummeted because I wasn't in my college bubble anymore. Everyone in my office is about 20 to 40 years older than me, so it's hard to relate to anyone, and sometimes I feel like I don't belong. I feel like I have to prove that I'm a nice guy to get rid of anyone's preconceived ideas about me, but this need to be like to stopping me from my normal, authentic self, and coming off it's not genuine, overly nice. Now I overthink about being too nice.

I definitely have some walls up that can come down, and I've been at this job for about 10 months now. I just want the people around me to see who I am as a person and not feel so misunderstood. We'd love to set some intentions and affirmations. I can say to myself and any advice would be appreciated. Thank you so much, sincerely. Maybe the first guy betch on this podcast. Oh, I love this.

I wish we, I do, I'm happy that he wrote in. I like having Guy Bech. betches. Same. It might be the first. Yeah. We welcome. Sometimes, sometimes it comes like a little neutral and you don't know if it's mail to email. That's true. This is the first explicitly. Yes. Mail one. So tell all your friends. We want to hear from them too. Yes. So this does sound like it's in the context of work more from the way he's describing it. Like it doesn't sound like a general social anxiety about needing to be liked. It sounds like it's in this work context,

which I kind of get. Because if I was working in an environment where everyone was two to four decades older than me, I could see why it feels a little bit like maybe you have to prove yourself or you don't fit in or people are being judged. Yes. Yeah, I can definitely see that.

that. Or, you know, I think there's probably a feeling for him. You know, I don't know what the preconceived notions are, maybe something around being young or inexperienced or, um, entitled or. Or that maybe like he feels like, again, because it's this new environment, he doesn't know what he's doing. Everyone else can see that or, or he's, he's not being appropriate because he doesn't know how people who are that much older than him like are interacting with each other. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, It's a tough spot. One of the things that I thought for him is like maybe he and it's probably against everything that he's thinking, but I think if he could find one or two people there to be a little bit more vulnerable with and be like real with, he might feel a little bit more connected

in his workplace, you know, the way that maybe he is with his friends where he doesn't feel like he's constantly having to uphold an image, which I think can give you this feel of anxiety and like the rumination that he's having because it's like he's he's not being his true self. So it's like if you're constant like it, you know, if you're holding one of those masquerade masks in front of your face all day, your hand's going to get tired after a while. And you're going to be like, I just want to put this thing down. And like, but I have to keep holding it. And it just probably feels like exhausting and overthinking because it's not his natural self. He's maintaining an image that he thinks that these other people want from him. But they picked him for this

job for a reason. So whatever his genuine self is, or whatever his resume is or his, you know, credentials are enough. So I do think, I mean, I don't know if you agree, but I think that maybe finding someone that you can just be vulnerable with and say, you know, I feel, sometimes I feel like a little bit on the outside because I'm so much younger than everyone here. And there might be some relief in just being like, who got that off my chest. Find the other youngest, the youngest person after you. Right. And you know what?

I think people would really, even the older people, I think, would feel kind of like, all right, I'm going to take you under my wing a little bit. Or I'm going to, you know, maybe I was there at one point. I was the youngest one here. And here's how I related to that or just something that someone can say where it's like, you know, give someone an opportunity to caretake you, maybe. a little bit and show like you're not expected to be perfect and I can teach you something or you can learn from me or it's okay that you don't know everything yet. Yeah, I think that's a great idea.

Even like casually in like the break room, getting coffee, you could just be like, oh, I feel so intimidated by like everyone else here who has so much more experience than me. Like that's even like a low lift kind of like self-deprecating thing of like being a little vulnerable, opening the door to someone and like whatever preconceived notion someone else has about you, probably, again, like you said, softening them up to you. Right. And just being like, you know, dude, you're doing great. Like, you know, you're new to this.

They're not going to fire you because you verbalize that you don't have 40 years of experience. They know that from your resume. So you acknowledging that out loud to them, they're not going to be like, oh, my God, did you hear what he said? He said that he's inexperienced. Like, we better let him go. I mean, he's right out of college. too. Of course he's an experience. Right. They know what they got. So I do think there's probably

some benefit there of you maybe showing a little vulnerability so that you can see that they are going to accept you for you. And also the fact that if you are being your true self and you are just letting that go and they let's just say they fire him because of that or they don't, you know, appreciate who he really is, then this probably isn't going to be a good fit. for you long term if you have to maintain this image long term in order to, you know, have this job. Yeah, definitely agree. You could also ask for like a mentor. Sometimes some companies are very interested. I think anything that expresses that you want to be better at your job or fit in better. I think people are always open anyone above you at the same level as you. People are usually

very receptive to you wanting to improve in any way. And obviously this is, I totally agree with that. And this is bothering him enough that he's ruminating about it to this extent that it's just something's got to give in terms of him forming a connection there where he can feel accepted. I mean, what is connection, right? It's like genuine acceptance of vulnerability. that's really what that kind of boils down to in a lot of ways.

So, you know, a little mantra that I put down for him is connection over perfection. So like instead of upholding this perfect view of like, I have to be the nicest guy, I have to be the smartest guy, I have to be the best realizing that you might feel better and others might feel better if you can lean into creating some more genuine connections with your coworkers. And then the last one that I wrote down was, as far as an intention, I intend to allow my genuine self to guide my path. And that can work for this. And it can work for any, you know, a relationship or, you know, whatever it might be.

But here, if your genuine self is not what they want and nobody likes you and they ostracize you and you're, you know, they fire you or whatever, then this isn't the path that you should be on because that's just not going to feel good long term to be in that type of environment. environment. Yeah, I agree with that. And just to normalize his feelings as someone who works in an office sometimes, I know you don't, I know you don't have a ton of coworkers, Dr. Naomi. Yeah. Quiet down back there. Everyone feels this way at any level. Like, I often leave a work event and was like, did I say something stupid to that person? Or like, did I come off? Am I still being respected by this person? Like, did I say too much? Did I say too little? Did I give not enough feet like everyone I think questions that's a very normal feeling to question things you said

in an event that's supposed to be a certain way and you're not sure if everyone's going to receive something in the way that you said it but that's just I think that's just life and that never fully goes away and um it's okay right totally I'm glad you said that and validated that because I do think every single person has a social event where they come you know they leave and think, oh gosh, I shouldn't have said that or what did that person think about? Did I come off like this? Right. Right. What are they going to think? And it's so funny because most vast majority of the time, I feel like everyone's thinking that and everyone is only thinking about themselves. Like everyone is leaving the party and not thinking about what you said. They're thinking about

what they said. Right. Unless it's like totally, you know, out there. Right. Unless you said something actually crazy. But I think just by the, it's also the other thing, it's like, but just by the nature that you're thinking about how what you're saying is being taken in by others, you're the less likely person that's going to be the one saying something crazy and inappropriate. Agree. Yep. Like those people are, the people who are saying the crazy and appropriate things aren't going home and saying, well, how was that taken?

They're just, they don't care at all. Totally. I agree. So you have a lot of wiggle room to give yourself slack that, you know, you're not saying anything that anyone's really giving too much thought to. Great. Let's do that. Want to the first one?

Okay, sure. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Judana. I love the pod and listen to it every week on my hot girl walks. Okay, I'll try to keep this as short as possible. My roommate's friend's little brother was staying in her room while she was traveling until he found a permanent apartment. That lasted about two weeks. Mind you, I just moved into the apartment the week before he got here, so still getting settled.

My roommate just got back a couple of days ago, and as expected, the friend's little brother has still not found an apartment, so he's now sleeping on our couch. I'm not terribly annoyed at this since he did offer to pay us both, but he's 21 and in college. So having him stay here is pretty much what you'd expect. He doesn't clean up much after himself and doesn't help out around the apartment. Keep in mind, we live in a pretty small New York City apartment, so there isn't much living space. Now for the how much can I be triggered part. I like how she's like now for that.

Like I've been like triggered the whole time on her behalf, being like irritated by the situation. Totally. Like there's more. Let's see. He made a comment about locking my cat in a small extra room we have because my cat was annoying him at night while trying to sleep. I kind of just ignored the comment and just brushed it off like, yeah, he's kind of annoying. But this morning he woke up and said he was so close to locking my cat in the extra room for being so annoying, but he didn't because he felt bad. This kid also stays up super late, as is. I'm talking to 3 a.m. so he doesn't seem to care much about sleep. Maybe I'm overreacting because I love my cat. And this guy is basically a stranger, but these comments are really starting to annoy me, especially because he's definitely overstaying his welcome. By the time he leaves, he will have been here for a month. So my questions for you both, how trigger can I be about his cat comments? Additionally, how trigger can I be about the whole situation?

I feel bad since I know how hard it is to find an apartment in New York City. However, he did already get accepted to one, but turned it down because it was too small. he doesn't seem to be trying that hard to move out of here thanks for all you do sincerely he doesn't even live here oh my god this person is a lot more forgiving than i am about the situation this would like i think it's funny because she strikes me as someone who's like a very easygoing person just the fact that she's let it go this and i think this happens sometimes to easygoing people and i i consider myself somewhat easygoing i think you're like really easygoing to where you wind up like agreeing to things because you're kind of like,

oh, it's not that big of a deal. Like, don't really. And then, but then you wind up having to live with the consequences of like being your too relaxed self when it's like, when you're like, sometimes I wish I could be like like more of a non-relaxed person who wouldn't have let this fly and wouldn't be in the situation. Right. Well, the non-relaxed person is like playing it forward. like what if he doesn't leave?

What if he, you know, like a non-relaxed person might have been like absolutely not. Like he's not staying at all or he's not staying on the couch or and she was kind of like, all right, no big deal. Stay. And then after a while you find yourself in this situation that now has become irritating and you can't kind of untangle it. So I do agree. Hopefully this can be a lesson for her that she might have to set boundaries a lot.

little bit sooner. And yes, I think the boundary was crossed when he, like, threatened to lock up her cat. Right. And he's not paying any rent. Like, no, well, I think they said he is paying rent. No, he said he offered to pay rent. Oh. Right. But he's in college. But it's like, she's like, but he's in college and he's 21, so he doesn't make any, or he just graduated college and he's 21, so he doesn't make any money. Like, that's not your problem. Right. I think like, there is a sense, like, where that's what I was thinking when she said that. I'm like, all right. So like, this is your roommate's brother. Have your roommate pay his rent.

Making her problem. Have your parents pay his rent. Like you shouldn't suffer because he can't pay his rent. Right. I do agree. I agree. I can see why she's triggered. And I do think, and I would feel, you're right, I feel like I'm very similar to this

writer where like I would be like, okay, no problem, no problem, no problem. And then when they like make a comment about the cat, I'd probably lose it. You know, like that would be the straw that broke. Like, I'm letting you stay here. You touch my cat. And your bag is, your stuff is going to be in a hefty bag on the street as, as we say. Yeah, your apartment, the apartment that you got accepted for is too small. Right.

Like, get the hell out of here. What are you talking? See how you're like living in your car. Right. So, yeah. Once it comes to like your loved ones, the, it's tough to let that go when you feel like you're being so nice. So nice.

So nice. I'd give this like an eight on the triggered scale. This would have, I mean, it's also kind of like the common is triggering, but the entire thing, like every day he stayed there would annoy me more. But I think this is a good lesson in like maybe being a little more confrontational than

she would like to be. And she could say to the roommate, listen, like I know who's your brother and like, I was fine when he was staying in your room. But like I do feel like this is my living situation. Like it does feel like kind of tight in here. And this isn't like totally what I signed up for.

Right. So let's like, give it a time frame. Yes. Or he'll be out of. Or he can start paying rent. Yeah. I mean, but I don't even think she wants that.

Like I don't think especially if he's, she's going to have to be worrying about like him and the cat and what's going on. The other thing they can do if he really needs a place to stay like you said, and it's not her problem. He can stay in the room with the sister or whatever it is. Like you want to stay here. The couch is common area and my cat walks around here. If you want to go into the bedroom and put a sleeping bag on the floor or sleep in the bed with your sister or whatever you want to do, that maybe is a reasonable accommodation.

But this space is for me and my cat and the common area. And so there's a couple of options here, I think, to disentangle. But I think it's a good for those of you out there. And a lot of people deal with this where someone needs a place to stay temporarily. I think it's good to set a timeline ahead of time where you say, okay, I'm down. I'm okay for like two weeks. But after that, he's either going to have to move into your room or he's going to have to move home with your parents or something because that's my limit.

And I get how that's hard if you're a non-confrontational person because I think it's so much easier said than done. Like I'm someone who probably wouldn't want to be like ruffling feathers. But it's a good thing to like, learn how to do like set a boundary is like does not make you like a like she seems like such a nice person she's like concerned that he can't afford to pay them money to stay there i'm like even me again i would be like this isn't my like figure it out like i'm not my son like right totally yep figure it out i i agree i give it an eight yeah i would agree with that and and you're and i

always say like your living space that's like supposed to be your Sanctuary. Sanctuary to escape from everything else. So I can understand. All right, let's do another one. Okay. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I have a story for your triggered segment that has just happened to me last night.

My husband and I are trying to get pregnant again after a miscarriage 13 months ago, followed by another miscarriage about six months ago. Needless to say, I'm a little bit on edge surrounding the whole pregnancy thing. Last night after work, I got home and got ready to take a pregnancy test a few days early, but I just couldn't wait. as I had the test in my hand, my husband said, can I tell you something without setting you off? No, the answer is no.

I said, probably not, but now you have to. He proceeds to tell me his step-sister, who we were fairly close with, is pregnant. While I'm holding a pregnancy test, I was so triggered. His reasoning was to let me know that she had also recently had a miscarriage, which honestly made things even worse.

And to add insult to injury, the test came back negative, so I spent two minutes fantasizing about the two of us being pregnant at the same time, only to have those dreams crushed. I was furious. He kept saying things like, fine, I won't tell you anything again.

And how do you think I felt? I spent a whole day keeping that secret. In other words, he found out the previous night, kept it to himself all night, all day, and then told me as I was getting ready to pee on the stick. I'm so upset. Hopefully someday we can laugh about it,

but for now it will go down as one of the worst timed pieces of news ever, sincerely too triggered to come up with a funny signature. I don't think this would have been taken well, like, regardless of when it was delivered. But, like, in that exact moment, I could see why the timing wasn't great. After she received a negative test, would that timing have been better? Better. Maybe he was like, I'm just going to get this in before she finds out so that if it's a no, she won't be even more mad.

Right. Because he was, because he had been holding it. from the, and he's probably like, if I had, yeah, to give him a little bit of sympathy, I think he was probably like found out the night before, didn't really want to say anything. Saw she was about the take the test and was like, I got to do it now. So it's not like worse after. Yes. But I think he probably didn't come from like a terrible place. Yeah. I think he was probably anxious about it the whole like how to tell her about it the whole day, the whole night and then just couldn't take it anymore and spit it out. And it, you know, um, wasn't. great timing, but unless he waited like a whole other day. Because I don't think, okay, she just got a negative result and then he's going to tell her like right after the negative result. Yeah.

He probably, he needed to get it in before or wait even longer. Yeah, exactly. And then if she, like, if she wasn't, maybe he was kind of, maybe he was hoping that you were that she was. And then it would be like a nice thing, but it didn't work out that way. Yeah. I could see why she's aggravated because it was, I think it was that two minutes. It's almost like we talk about like emotions and time and it was that two minutes. Like I don't think it probably made her mad that minute because she was like,

ooh, maybe we'll be pregnant. I think it made her mad after it was negative. So it was almost like something to project the negativity onto. Because if she was really mad in that minute that he told her, she wouldn't have been like fantasizing about being pregnant together. I think maybe that was his hope that it would somehow be like a positive thing. I don't think there's a great way for him to have told you that. I can imagine it wouldn't have gone well either way.

Yeah. I guess maybe if he had got to her before she had the test in her hand, it would have been. Also, she was testing early. So he's probably like she was every day. There's no way around this. Right. Right. It's true.

I see what she's saying, But I understand why it's triggering. I don't think it's like not triggering, but I don't think that like it's necessarily his fault. Right. And I guess and he said, which I think is sweet is he was trying to give her some hope of like she also had a miscarriage and now it worked. Like now she's pregnant. So like don't stress it. Like it'll happen because it, you know, it happened to her so it could happen to you.

So I think his intentions were good. but he probably just got impulsive about it because he was holding it in and, you know. Yeah. I've done that before where I'm like anxious to like say some news and then after a while I'm like hemming and hawing and rolling it over and when's the best timing and then something comes up that feels like similar and it's like, blah, you know. Right. I got to just do it right now.

And then he's, yeah, I don't think, I don't think there's a, I don't think you would have been that much less annoyed. I think you're annoyed at the situation. which is that someone else is something is working for someone else that isn't working for you. And I think that's totally normal. And I think it's totally okay to feel like jealous. Initially it doesn't mean you're jealous forever. You can feel like a twinge of jealousy and then like move on with your day.

But it is, I think when you feel upset about something that feels unfair, it does feel better sometimes to have a target to take that out on. Right. because it is hard to admit that like, I'm just not that happy for her right now. Right. Because I'm really suffering and I'm really disappointed and that's normal. And I'll normalize that. And it's okay to feel all of those feelings. Yeah.

So I do think at some point you'll come around to just kind of like, this sucks. You know, it's hard to hear that someone else is getting what you want. It's okay to feel upset. It's okay to be angry. but I don't think that he did anything intentionally to hurt you and maybe even was trying to do it in a way that he thought would make you feel better. Right. I actually think it's more hurtful when people like try to hide that information

because it almost, I think it's like, like I think sometimes it's like when you're, it makes it worse if someone doesn't tell you because then it's like, oh, you didn't think I could handle it. Right. Like you're so fragile. Like they can't, yeah. Right.

Yeah, totally. I'd get the situation like a six. Not because of the exact time. Like I think you would have give this a six if you would have told her right after it was negative. Exactly. I think like any situation where someone is getting the thing that you're trying very hard to achieve before you and you hear that news, it's immediately triggering because it's something you're insecure about. You don't feel secure in how you're in your path.

And so hearing someone else getting the exact thing you want, I think is completely natural and would be a six no matter when you heard it. Right. Right. I do think him saying, fine, I won't tell you anything again. Maybe not helpful. Not that helpful. But he probably just felt like I can't win here. Which he probably couldn't. So, I mean, yeah, I agree. I think I give the situation like a six, even a seven. As far as the exact timing and how triggering that was, I, you know, I would bump that down to like a three because I don't think it would have mattered that. Like unless he waited a week, which he's not going to wait a week. You're going to still be kind of.

And then you'd be like, you knew for a whole week and you didn't say anything. Right. You think I'm so fragile that I can't, you know, handle this. Right. I think he would, I mean, that's what I would say if someone's only that. Right. Right. Totally.

Like we say on you up, there's no great day to break up with someone. Right. There's no great day to deliver bad news. Totally. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby.

Jorge Morales-Picco, and Rebecca Salis McCaff. Editing by Massilio Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches.