Oversharing - Is It Okay To Sleep Separately From My Partner? Ft. Dr. Wendy Troxel

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

We’re all tired… thankfully this week’s episode features sleep expert and clinical psychologist Dr. Wendy Troxel, who shares some real-world tips for better sleep. Jordana and Dr. Naomi tell us about their own experience with lack-of-sleep, and how their quality of sleep is impacted by sharing a bed with a partner. Dr. Troxel explains why some couples are turning to the concept of ‘sleep divorce’ and what her research has taught her about how couples can improve their co-sleeping. They respond to an email from a listener who is experiencing anxiety at the thought of all the sleep she’ll lose out on after her boyfriend moves in. What’s the secret to not letting sleep frustrations affect your relationship? Then Jordana and Naomi tackle this week’s Intentions email, presented by The Knot Vendor Marketplace, regarding an overbearing mother during the pre-wedding process. How do you keep the pressure of planning a wedding from ruining the experience altogether? They close things with some Triggered scenarios about splitting wedding gifts and a toilet mishap.  Thanks again to our presenting sponsor! Find vendors for every wedding on The Knot Vendor Marketplace by visiting theknot.com/oversharing Oversharing: Calm TF Down is available now, featuring our first four guided meditations! Become a subscriber in the Apple Podcasts app or go to subscribe.betches.com Check out our latest promo codes here: https://betches.com/promos Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Dregana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And today we have a very special guest to go over an email about something that we've been

talking about for a few weeks or at least I've been talking about. complaining about, which is sleep. And we have a sleep expert here with us, Dr. Wendy Trollxel, to help us answer a question and just talk about the importance of sleep for your mental health. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure that is near and dear to my heart, and I'm happy to talk to you about it. We are so lucky to have you. I feel like my whole life I've wanted to be in front of a sleep expert, and it's never happened until now. You've been waiting for this moment. Yes, waiting for this. moment to ask all the questions, but I know we only have so much time. And I want the listener's

questions to be asked, not just mine. How generous of you. So Dr. Truxel, what got you into, I know, I mean, I know you're, you have a book out that's specifically about couples and their sleeping habits. But what got you into like sleep in the first place, which led you to the sleep in relationships? Like, how did, how did this come together? Yeah. So I have a book out called sharing the covers, every couple's guide to better sleep. and it really does reflect the trajectory of my research, which actually started out. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist by training, but have always done research as well as clinical work. And my research interests have always been focused on how and why it is that

relationships are so critical not only for our mental health, but also for our physical health and indeed our survival. So I've studied why it is that married people or partnered people tend to live longer, happier, and healthier lives than their unmarried or unpartnered counterparts or even their partnered counterparts who are in unhappy or unsatisfying relationships. Marriage and relationships matter, but also the quality matters. But we don't entirely understand why that is. So I came to an interest in sleep really to try to understand whether sleep could be a possible pathway explaining why some relationships are health protective and others may actually confer health risks. And in doing so, I realized I sort of stumbled upon an area that had been completely

neglected in the world of sleep because sleep researchers tend to view sleep in these isolated environments in a laboratory setting. But we all know that's not how sleep in the real world actually looks, right? Sleep in the real world is noisy, can be interrupted. And for many adults, it's shared with a bed partner. Yeah, I am so fascinated about this idea, even on the trajectory. Like I think a lot of people, we've always heard that story of like, oh, the friends whose parents don't even sleep in the same room kind of thing and how that's like this shameful thing about their marriage and what does that mean for them.

And I know that your book speaks a lot to that and how maybe kind of undoing some of that stigma behind what does it mean to sleep in the same room or not. and how important is it that you share a bed with your partner versus getting good sleep? Right. Well, that's a key sort of goal of my book. One of which was to share the science on what we actually know about the shared nature of sleep. Is there actually data to support this idea that, you know, there's this one-size-fits-all sleeping strategy for all couples because that's sort of society's prescription. We tend to believe that there's, you know, only one approach to, you know, a couple sleeping arrangements, and any couple who veers from that shared sleep strategy,

that there must be something wrong with their relationship. So first, I want to actually cover the science about what we know about sleeping together versus not how it's changed over the course of history, which it has dramatically. And what we know from the science is that there is not a one-size sleeping strategy that's going to work for all couples. Another goal of the book was really to sort of flip the narrative, to start allowing couples to have open and honest conversations about what's working and what's not working in the bedroom when it comes to sleep and to start figuring out strategies that are going to work for that particular couple to do what's really the most important thing when it comes to the relationship, which is prioritizing and optimizing good

sleep quality for both partners. Because what science clearly shows, is that a well-slept partner is a better partner. We're happier, healthier, better communicators, funnier, even more attractive when we get the sleep they need. So that's really how I want to start changing this conversation away from this shame and the stigma of societal prescriptions of how couples engage in this highly intimate behavior that happens to occupy about one third of our lives. Yes, right, which is crazy. I mean, we were just talking about the a few weeks because I had had, I would say, three or four in a row, restless, like, unslept nights. And I was saying I got on the, it was a Monday morning.

We usually record these on Monday mornings and got on. I was like, I'm feeling very irritable today. And, you know, Dr. Naomi is also a licensed clinical therapist. So we kind of like went through it. And, you know, sleep is just like you were saying so intensely tied to mood and productivity and just general feeling. Like, I feel like I feel more depressed when I haven't. slept well. And there's evidence to support that. We know that sleep loss not only increases

irritability, it can also increase one's risk for clinical disorders like depression. And when it comes to interacting with your partner, unfortunately, our partners, as you all probably know, often bear the brunt of our, you know, bad behaviors and our, you know, bad moods. And when we're sleep deprived, it basically makes us so emotionally raw. And even three nights of restless nights of sleep can do it, where your emotions are sort of constantly on edge. You're just more vulnerable, and you're more prone to snap at most likely your partner. So we also have shown that under compromised sleep quality conditions or when sleep deprived, people are more prone to conflict with their partner. And it's not just being prone to conflict. It's being prone to the types of

behaviors in the midst of conflict that are most toxic for relationships. So kind of hostile types of really critical behaviors, you're more likely to lash out at your partner and you're less empathic as well when you're sleep deprived. So you can't read your partner's emotions well and know kind of, okay, it's time to step back. It's so interesting that we, you know, talk a lot, almost all of our emails are interpersonal emails. And we go through how to be a better partner, how to communicate better, but it's almost like first things first, let's be well slept. And then we can start to move up the rungs of like listening and communicating and being mindful. But the idea that, you know, we always talk about a lot of times with couples and I have done a lot of

couple's work. I'm sort of like, you have to be invested in your partners, you know, feeling fulfilled in their life, or you have to be invested in your partners wanting to have a healthy body and exercise. And there's this other layer of you have to be invested in your partner being well rested as part of being a good partner. Like I have to care about not just my sleep, but your sleep or not just my well-being, but your well-being. So I'm interested to hear and to read about how that plays out when it's sort of, I think, and we can get to the email, but in the email, it's kind of like people get very touchy, like, you don't want to sleep with me? That's offensive. That's a rejection. That feels like instead of thinking, well, maybe prioritizing your sleep is going to

end up bringing us closer. It's a wee problem. It's a wee issue. I love the way you phrase that, is that, you know, sleep is truly foundational. And if we can start helping couples to view sleep collectively, And how they do it is really their choice. And we can give strategies to help them find those, you know, best solutions for them as an individual couple. That's great. But it's this, the foundation of a healthy couple really starts how you sleep. Because everything else, you know, your ability to communicate, your emotions, your ability to, you know, hear your partner and respond impatically. That's all supported by healthy sleep.

So if we can address this as a sort of relationship, enhancing goal rather than, you know, I'm struggling with sleep and it's all your fault and therefore we're considering these solutions. It's really a wee issue and we're going to come to it together to find a solution that is going to maximize our relationship because it matters that much to me. It's an investment that's that worthy of making because I care about you so much. Like that's how I approach it with couples. Totally. And I mean, to me, like I have so many friends. is it's so funny because I feel like you hear the most stressful years of a marriage are when you just,

you first have kids, right? And that's because neither one of you were sleeping. And you just, I guess you think of it as coincidental in some ways, but like you don't think of that, the sleep factor of it. And like those are the most stressful years of your relationship with your significant other.

Absolutely. That was one of the most fascinating areas when I first started diving into, you know, the coupled nature of sleep was just recognizing from a relationship. perspective, we know that, you know, times in relationships where there's a precipitous decline in marital quality, which includes after the birth of the first child, also is paired with precipitous increases in sleep deprivation and sleep problems. And yet again, the field was just not recognizing, oh, wait, maybe there's actually a causal link. And I think even just helping couples

to prepare and anticipate and label when, you know, this is not that, you know, just my partner behaving badly because he's become a jerk or that, you know, I'm becoming a jerk, but, you know, I'm sleep deprived. And so can we give each other more grace by sometimes labeling, you know, some bad behaviors is not a permanent excuse, but it could be related to the very known sort of temporal sleep deprivation that comes when you have a baby? You know, we have a term for being, you know, hangary when you're hungry and angry. But we need, you know, slangry is when you're sleepy and angry.

And sometimes labeling that, you know, can give couples a little bit of distance to say, okay, you know, this is not like a dispositional problem. And my partner that's unsolvable. But maybe one of us needs a nap. Or maybe we need some support. If it goes on, you know, my oldest is 11 and my youngest, literally last night is still coming in. And if this goes on for a decade, then it is kind of turns into a personality type of trait. And I do think a lot of people neglect their sleep for years on end. Years on end.

And yeah, so, and that's why the dialogue around this, that, you know, it's not just something to accept. There's absolutely periods in a family's life and a couple's life where sleep problems are very prevalent. And frankly, it's not just when they're newborns. You know, I have teenagers. and, you know, there's, they can keep you up at night too. But there's also strategies. And actually when couples start elevating sleep to, you know, in conversations about sleep,

to sort of a priority area in their relationship instead of this neglected thing that just we sort of are reactive to, well, then you can start problem solving around it. You know, maybe you take turns if you have an infant waking up in the middle of the night. There's all sorts of strategies which I discuss in my book, you know, across, you know, the many transitions in a family's history. So what is this concept of sleep divorce that you, I know you've talked about in your TED talks and also in your book? Like, can you explain, is that a recent thing or has that always been around? Yeah. So the term sleep divorce is an unfortunate recent term, you know, picked up by the media, which really just refers to,

frankly, the increasingly prevalent trend of couples choosing to sleep apart for a variety of reasons. And the reality is across history are, you know, couples sleeping arrangements have changed dramatically. You know, it used to be day rigor in the Victorian era, for instance, for couples to sleep apart. You've seen, you know, shows like The Crown on Netflix. You see, you know, a very enduring relationship in which, you know, they have, you know, for years, the royalty have slept apart. And but that has sort of changed over time with societal norms. And basically around sort of the 1960s and the second.

revolution, we saw this major sort of societal shift where we started stigmatizing, sleeping apart as being necessarily a sign of a loveless or sexless relationship. And in many ways, sort of those sort of beliefs and stigma carry forward to today, although we're starting to see some signs that that may be changing. I try to avoid using the term sleep divorce because it's such a, you know, word was such negative connotations. Anytime you put the word divorce in the context of a relationship, that doesn't feel good. It really is a stigmatizing word. And, you know, many happy couples may choose to sleep apart, again, for a variety of reasons. What we need to do is help couples find the solution

that's going to work best for them and move away from these societally prescribed sort of arrangements that everyone must sleep in one sleeping arrangement or else. And really instead, again, change the focus to how do we sleep, you know, better together or apart. And there's lots of strategies for all different couples. And it may change throughout a couple's history. So that's, you know, there's just not a one size fits all strategy. So I did have another question, which I think, because I've heard this a lot, which is how do you help couples if they do decide the best thing for them is to sleep apart to not feel disconnected or to not feel like somehow if one. partners leading the charge on like, I can't sleep with you, the other partner not to feel rejected

or like, do you work with couples on, on that issue? I do. And it's often, that's exactly how many couples present. And Jordana, you mentioned this too, that like, well, you know, issues of abandonment and stuff. There's, there's so much meaning sort of laden in the marital bed, right? They do like, and we attach so much to this. And it's often the case when couples come in to see me that one partner, usually because he or she is just not sleeping well at all, they are very motivated to try anything to sleep better. And they basically want me to give them permission to try different strategies, but they're

just desperate for a good night of sleep. The other partner might feel very resistant to any sort of even suggestion of sleeping apart. because, you know, of how emotionally laden the relational or marital bed is for them. And so they may be really feeling like, well, if we were to sleep apart, that's, you know, that's marching towards a real divorce, right? And may have real issues with abandonment and rejection. So there's a lot of strategies that I work on with couples. First, it's identifying what the sleep problem is. Sometimes the partner who is so desperate to try anything may actually need insomnia treatment. And so we may may sort of first start improving his or her sleep and see how much it actually has to do with

the partner or not. But then we can work on other strategies as a couple. First of all, starting to have open and honest and non-threatening dialogue about, again, what's working and what's not working and maybe even approaching different sleeping arrangements as a experiment or a trial period. in that way it's much less sort of, there's less permanency to it. And it's actually a great way to collect data for both partners. On the one hand, the partner who's so desperate to try anything and they think that their sleep problems are entirely due to the other partner, they may find, oh, if I spent like a weekend, let's say we did a trial period, we're on a weekend we tried separate beds or separate

bedrooms. The partner who's really not sleeping well may find, oh, well, actually, I have sleep problems even without my partner. It's not all their fault. Or maybe they find, oh, I really slept better. This is data together. The partner who's really resistant, by making it a trial period or sort of a short term, let's test this out, see what happens. They might get to test out those beliefs that, oh, if we start sleeping apart, you know, we're never going to have sex again.

We're going to lose all closeness. This is a sign of my partner rejecting me. Maybe they'll find that's not the case. Maybe they'll find, oh, my partner who has been so sleep deprived, and stressed, now actually is happy to see me in the morning. This isn't so bad after all. It's sort of kind of moving away from this all or nothing, thinking that if we try something different, we're sentencing our relationship to, you know, separate beds forever, or it's going to necessarily mean something about our relationship. It's really trial and error, collecting data in a non-threatening

way, and then coming back and talking about, well, how did we benefit from this and what do we potentially sacrifice and then you work through that. I love that because it really feels like it normalizes the difference in sleep needs because I do think societally it does feel like if someone doesn't want to sleep in the same bed as you, it feels like, oh, they don't like they don't like they're avoiding intimacy in some ways. And I think I remember this even from like early dating when my husband now boyfriend at the time, you know, if he would like leave at the end of the night to go sleep in his bed, I would take it as like a, you know, as a rejection, you don't want to spend the night here when really it was like he has, he waking up early, he's going to work. He wants to have

a good night's sleep in an environment that he's like, has controlled. But it's so easy to take it personally, even for something like anecdotally, I'm kind of into like going to bed at the same time. I'm wondering your thoughts on that. So, you know, sometimes my husband wants to stay up and watch, watch TV or watch a show. And I'm like, I'm tired. Let's go to bed. And I'm like, Like, well, you can go to bed. I'll come in. I'm like, oh, no, I'm like, oh, no, we're going to bed. Right. Right. Well, yeah, it's like we got, you know, my sleep, your sleep and our sleep. And how do we put all this together? Because it's, you know, this is a biobehavioral phenomenon. And particularly when it comes to couples sleeping schedules, this is another area that I talk about in my book and I see

couples who come in to me with these challenges, you know, just because you fall in love with another a human being does not necessarily mean that you're going to be perfectly in sync with regard to your sleep-wake preferences, which are about 50% biologically based, genetically determined. So some of us are extreme morning types where we wake up at the crack of dawn. Others are extreme evening types, the night owls who kind of hit their peak in the late evening hours. And then some of us are in between. But when you pair and a strong morning person, with an extreme evening person, and that couple, you know, feels as you do that, like, but we're a couple and therefore we have to go to bed at the same time.

One of them is going to suffer because as much as you love that person, you know, if the evening person is trying to go to bed at 10 p.m., because their partner says, it's my bedtime, they really can't override their biology, which is just not sleepy at 10 p.m. So what I recommend to those couples is to try to prioritize the time that's show. shared in bed before you fall asleep and make that quality time. That means, you know, put away your phones, perhaps, and actually just be with your partner. Sometimes that ritual of being together in bed before either partner goes to sleep is really the most critical time to savor as a couple. So if one's a, you know, morning lark and the other is an owl, they can get into bed before the

Lark's earlier bedtime, share some cuddle time, some intimacy, just closeness, digest the stresses of the day, be together in a quiet space. And then when it's time for the early bird to go to bed, the night owl can get out of bed, go to another room, do his or her thing, and return to bed quietly when it's their more natural bedtime. Again, this idea that we have to, you know, always be in sync with our partner's sleep wake preferences just because we love that person is simply not a reflection of the reality, which is a lot of our sleep wake schedules are beyond our control and are in fact biologically based. And it's asking too much of our partner to try to override that tendency. Mike, you heard it here. You're right. She's right. Yeah, we won't tell him to listen to this

episode. I did have one other question, which I don't know the answer to. But but I'm curious, have you done any research on any correlation between this type of better sleep and then quality or quantity of sex as a result of getting better sleep? Oh, great question. There is research out there, not my work, but others. And I love talking about this research because, you know, there's the old adage that sex is good for sleep. And that may or may not be true, actually. It seems to be good for some, perhaps not others, and that might fall on.

gendered lines. You know, what I often hear is, you know, a female partner will say that her male partner, after sex, like, falls right into sleep. But, you know, if she has sex before bedtime, she's awake all night. This may resonate with some. So it's not entirely consistent, and it may fall on gendered lines how effective sex is for sleep. But what is quite clear from the research is that sleep is good for sex. So first of all, we know that sleep is intricately tied and effects are sexual and reproductive hormones. One study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which is the preeminent medical journal, found that among healthy young men, just about a week of sleep restriction resulted, where they were sleeping, I think, less than five hours per night,

resulted in a 10% reduction in their testosterone levels, which is, of course, a critical male reproductive and sexual hormone. And just to put that into context, a 10% reduction in testosterone, levels is about the equivalent of aging a man hormonally by about 10 years. So a 40-year-old man starts to look more like a 50-year-old man. Okay? So like take that to heart. And for women, there's been studies to show that with an extra hour increase in her sleep across several days, there was a significant increase in her sexual desire and pleasure. So, you know, both from a hormonal perspective and from a pleasure perspective, research does show that getting a good night sleep is actually really beneficial for a couple's sexual relationship as well. Wow, this is probably,

that's fact is probably super motivating for people to be like, okay, well, if we do this, it's going to be better. A lot of people feel like it's going to be worse. That's awesome. You feed the baby. Yeah, exactly. You want to have sex. There may be benefits for us both. Again, sometimes knowing just how critical sleep is for all aspects of our relationship is. It can be motivating and it can put partners on the same page together to say, okay, this is mutually beneficial. How do we maximize sleep for both of us? And what do you feel like is the number one tip that changes people's sleep? Maybe that most people don't know about. In terms of sort of my number one sleep health strategy for everyone to follow if you're going to do one thing, it's actually to set a consistent wake up time.

Interestingly enough, it actually begins a good night of it begins first thing when you wake up in the morning. And that's because our wake up time is really the single most important cue to set our internal biological clocks, otherwise known as their circadian rhythms. So if you lock in that regular wake up time and better yet, pair it with some morning light exposure, you're setting yourself up for sleep success by at least locking in those circadian rhythms which govern our sleep wake patterns. And then there's lots of other important tools as well. But if you're going to start with one thing, set that consistent wake-up time, and that can make a big difference and actually set you up to be sleepy at the right time at night.

Even on the weekends, right? That's the problem. Yes. Even on the weekends. So, you know, and I, you know, I'm a human being and I, you know, have a life myself. And I realize that if you wake up at 6 a.m. during the work week, maybe you need a little bit of latitude on the weekend. So I give a little leeway, but I say, you know, try to keep your weekend wake up time within two hours of your weekday wake up time. Oh, that seems doable. Right. Okay. So baby steps and, you know, and if you're really struggling with sleep, you have to be a little bit more rigid. But those are sort of some parameters. So you don't go sort of, you know, too extreme and sleep in so much that then really makes, particularly Sunday nights, really hard to fall asleep well if you've slept in a lot. So if you kind of

rain it in some, that's still better for your circadian rhythm, and it's more likely that you're going to adhere to that. Awesome. Yeah. That sounds like a great little tip. And I don't know that I want to know the answer to this, but we're a big napping family, and I really love my naps. Is napping a good thing?

What are your thoughts on naps? Napping is a really hot topic right now, and there's lots and lots of research coming out about it. I don't know if I want to hear what you have to say. Yeah. I mean, here's the deal. cultures around the world have napped and have it, you know, napping is a normal part of many cultures, you know, for years and years and years throughout history, right? There are countries, you know, for which siesta culture is just, it's a part of their culture. And the research on sort of

napping is it good or bad really depends on sort of where sort of the research takes place. And the bottom line is, how is the nap serving you? There are good naps and there are bad naps, right? And it also depends on why are you napping? If you're in a country where napping is really culturally normative, there's really no evidence that there's anything bad about taking naps. I think in our culture where naps aren't culturally normative, we have to look to why is that person napping. Are you napping because you're chronically sleep deprived or your sleep is chronically compromised or because you have some, you know, sleep disorder or a partner, you know, thrashing about and snoring at night and keeping you awake at night.

If you're using naps on a chronic basis to compensate for chronic poor sleep at night, then that's probably not so good for you because you really need to get to the root of the problem and start sleeping better at night during the primary sleep period. On the other hand, if you're somebody who just loves a nap, feels refreshed, it doesn't disturb your nocturnal sleep and you end up after the nap, hey, if you're in that camp, then have at it. The basic rule for a healthy nap is keep it short and keep it earlier in the day. So later naps are not so good because they could interfere with your nighttime quality of sleep. And too long naps can also interfere with your nighttime sleep, but also they

rarely end up feeling refreshing because the longer you sleep, the more likely you're to slip into the deeper stages of sleep and then wake up feeling that groggy, unrefreshed state, which is exactly what you don't want after a nap. So keep it earlier in the day and keep it short, and do be mindful of the reason for the nap. If you're doing it proactively, it feels good to you and you're not doing it to compromise for the fact that you're chronically sacrificing sleep at night or that your sleep is just very compromised, then I would say it's absolutely fine for you. What a relief for you. You're good. Which is great because, and it's interesting that you say because sometimes I kind of feel like I have to almost make up a reason why I want to like,

oh, it's because, you know, I got woken up in the middle of the night or oh, it's because I didn't get enough sleep. And sometimes I just, I see it almost as like, you know, you have to like turn your phone off and back on every now and then to just like reset. Yeah. Like sometimes that's what it feels like. Well, that's a great purpose of an app as a reset button. And as you just mentioned, isn't it interesting? I mean, you brought me on here to talk about, you know, in part like the stigma attached to couples sleeping arrangements, how interesting is it that, you know, there's so much stigma in multiple areas, including napping, you know, that we have in our society. And I think it really reflects our society's just really sort of somewhat tortured relationship with sleep, you know,

that we've, you know, historically undermined the importance of sleep. We've, you know, patted people on the backs for being such hard chargers that they just don't need sleep. All night. And now we know with an abundant amount of research that that's really a bad idea that rather than being a sign of success and productivity and health, not sleeping enough can actually, you know, diminish productivity and march you to a premature death. So like sleep is important, but we do have like these, you know, the societal stigma about sleep in so many domains, whether it be how couples sleep together or whether you need sleep

or what it means if you're a napper. So I think we really need to bring sleep to the fore more and talk about, you know, why it really matters, which is that it is the foundation for not only our individual health and well-being, but also our relationship health. I think this is all so important. It's something that people don't really think about or even talk about that often. And so I'm so glad that we got to talk about it on today's episode. I want to get into the email.

But before that, I also know that for the listeners at home, you are also doing a contest, right? tell us a little bit about that. I know today is the last day to enter. Yeah. Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. Well, it's such a pleasure to talk about this. So as I said, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and I've been studying couples and sleep and treating couples with sleep problems for, you know, 20 years. And to be honest with you, I'm one person and I have a relatively limited practice. Well, I now have this great opportunity with this partnership with mattress firm to give some free consultations, sleep marriage consultations, to use some lucky couples who are struggling with sleep and who, you know, want to come to me as the expert to have some

one-on-one sessions where we really talk through and problem-solve the various issues that they may be having. And again, the types of sleeping challenges that couples may face very dramatically, it's not just about snoring. There can be other issues as well. And, you know, I'm just thrilled to be able to participate in this contest and to be able to work with some couples to help them navigate these sometimes rocky waters and actually find some solutions that are going to optimize their sleep quality and also their relationship health. So it's a lot of fun. That's awesome. Where do people go to enter this? This is a partnership with mattress firm. So correct me if I'm wrong, we'll take it out of the time. Can they win a free mattress as well

as a consultation? I think there was something in there. Yes, yes. So there is also an opportunity to win a free mattress. This is a partnership with mattress firm. So going to their website for the consultation with a sleep marriage consultant, which is me, it's going to be a lot of fun. And I'm looking forward to being able to help more couples as they navigate these issues, which, you know, we've just neglected for too long. That's awesome. So go to the mattress firm website. If you want to enter that contest for you and your partner, get a sleep consultation with

Dr. Troxel and free mattress. Sounds amazing. Again, really in line with what we're talking about with just optimizing your sleep and optimizing your partner's sleep and caring about your partner's sleep. I think it's a great first step to be really. committed to not just you getting good sleep, but your partner as well. And I think this email that we're about to read has a lot to do with that too. Do you want to read it, Dr. Naomi? Sure. I'll read this. I'm curious to hear what advice you give them. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana.

I'll jump right into a very long email. My boyfriend and I have been dating a year and we're planning to move in together later this year. I'm 35 and I've had a rough dating history before him. I had a lot of failed situationships and dated unavailable men. In therapy, I realized I had labeled myself as undaidable. My current boyfriend is great and makes me feel very calm and loved and we talk about marriage. So my issue, I'm a very light sleeper and wake up to everything because I hadn't had a real long-term relationship in almost a decade before my boyfriend. I got very used to sleeping alone.

My boyfriend is tall and 200 pounds and he moves around a ton in his sleep like throws himself around. He wakes me up all night long, leaving me cranky and overtired and even sick the next day. It's become a point of tension in our relationship because I'm so frustrated, I snap at him. I've tried everything to fix it, got a king bed, got a memory foam mattress, and even put two twin mattresses pushed together on my king frame. I can still feel him belly flop at 3 a.m. vibrating the sturdy frame, and sometimes I wake him up to yell at him about it. The more I've tried to fix it and failed, the worse my sleep has gotten. I'm anxious and when I inevitably am woken up in the middle of the night, I'm so frustrated and

on edge and struggle to get back to a peaceful sleep. Besides being frustrating, the situation is bringing up all these old emotions about being undatable. I think, why can't I just be a normal girlfriend who sleeps in bed with her boyfriend? I'm a freak who's so used to being alone, I can't have a normal relationship. My inability to sleep together will ruin our relationship. I've expressed these fears to my boyfriend and he reassures me, he loves me, quote, the situation isn't annoying, but he's not annoyed at me. And quote, I may not be a good sleeper, but I'm a great partner in many other ways, but it's still gnaws at me.

I have so much anxiety that once we move in together, I'll never get a good night's sleep again. The obvious answer is separate bedrooms, but neither of us want that, and I know doing that will make me feel like an ultimate failure. He insists I'll get used to it. When we move in together, we only spend one or two nights a week together now because of distance. I suggested two twin frames next to each other. i.e. separate beds in the same room and he basically sighed. And I don't blame him. It sucks and I feel

so much shame around it. How do I make the situation less emotionally significant for me? How do I stop myself from using it to tell myself I'm a dating failure? How do I stop my undatable fears from rising up again? Do you think there's any chance I'll get used to it? Please help. Thanks. Sleepless, not in Seattle. Wow. It breaks my heart just a little bit. You can see how. loaded this topic is. And I mean, I was just taking notes as, as you were reading it. I mean, you know, she equates a normal girlfriend versus a freak with how well or not well she sleeps with her partner. You know, it's going to ruin our relationship as if there's this one-to-one relationship that, you know, sleeping with someone necessarily is going to guarantee a healthy

relationship. There's not a one-to-one relationship. I'm sure we all know people who sleep together regularly and are not in a perfectly happy or healthy relationship. So by the same token, we really need to move beyond this thinking that not sleeping together or struggling to sleep together necessarily means something negative about your relationship. It might just be how you sleep and that you're having some compatibility issues. But having compatibility issues with your partner, whether be day or night is not a sign of failure, but rather, you know, a sign of, you know, a problem to be solved, a problem to work through with your partner, with the mindset that you are so, to use your word, Naomi, so invested in this, that it matters that we find solutions that are going to work for us.

So first, you know, I think just what was so poignant about that email that I think is going to resonate with people. It's just like, listen to that all or nothing and extremely socially stigmatizing language around like the most intimate of behaviors, right? You know, this is your choice. This is your sleep. It's the foundation of so much of our health and functioning and well-being. Why are we letting society make these decisions for us and make us feel bad if we make a choice that doesn't follow sort of what everybody else is doing? Especially because like sleeping or, you know, the bedroom is the place that no one else really should be in. Like, that's the most private place in your home. Step out. Right. Right. And yet we allow society in,

when we allow these judgments that we put on ourselves that are really societally based, they have no place in the bedroom, right? There are lots of paths to a healthy relationship. And I think if you reflect on your relationship and, you know, other sort of issues where you would let you know, societal norms completely dictate how you and your partner behave. You know, we're a little bit more resilient in other ways. But when it comes to sleep, it's like, oh, whatever society says, like, they're right and what I'm feeling has got to be wrong. But sort of having some sort of internal sense and working with your partner on this most intimate of issues is so critical. The other thing that I thought was so important in terms of what to work through

in this particular couple, as she said that she wants to make this less emotionally significant. And I think that that's absolutely true. And I think one of the strategies to do so, as we've already discussed, is really to start engaging on this with her partner as a wee issue, a wee problem. And sometimes coming at it from a perspective of, I'm just not sleeping well. And you know what I'm not sleeping well, I'm so irritated. and I feel really bad, you know, that happened, you know, this morning when I lashed out at you, I don't think I would have done that if I had slept well. What can we do together to work on this? Because I notice that when I'm not sleeping well, I'm not treating you the way I want to as a

partner. So that's one strategy of sort of using eye statements, focusing on what both partners can get out of finding a solution and not jumping to the solution. Separate beds or separate bedrooms, may not be the answer for this couple. Sounds like they've tried a lot. I think using some humor, I mean, as she had in her letter, I mean, she's got this, you know, big guy in her bed who thrashes around a lot. He probably, maybe he has some insight to that. I think being a little bit lighter about it and really focusing on, well, this is not about,

this doesn't have to say something about us and how we interact as human beings and as partners, but really just, you know, when I'm not sleeping well, I can't be the partner to you that I want to be. So using those eye statements, using some humor, putting them both on the same page about, you know, reflecting on, oh, how do you know, how do you feel when you're not sleeping well? You know, there can be some common grounds. They know, like, she's not making this up that it doesn't feel well when you're not sleeping well. And then really timing this conversation well, too, right? So avoiding having this type of conversation in the middle of the night, in the midst of a sleepless night, when you're only likely to lash out and, you know, punch your partner or elbow him. To really reflect on this, as with all difficult conversations among couples, timing is critical. And doing it at a time when you ideally both have, you know, slept a decent amount is a really good idea. And then maybe approaching it from a, can we try this and collect some data like I was talking about earlier? Like, let's put all the options on the table, including trying the, you know, single beds put together equals a king

size bed. What would it be like? if we would try that and, you know, what are our concerns? You can even talk through the experiment as well as doing some invi-vo experiments, depending on, you know, what actual beds you have. But like, what's actually the concern behind that when he sighed when she made that? Well, let's unpack that. What is the sigh about? Does that reflect his underlying concern that, oh, my gosh, if we start sleeping apart, that's going to be like my grandparents and they never had sex and therefore we're never going to have sex, let's unpack this and really identify these very extreme beliefs that might be sort of creating this, you know, emotional load. And let's unpack it and

really identify, okay, is this based in reality or perhaps not? Or how might we problem solve? How could we ensure if the fear is that we're going to lose intimacy that I'm going to feel abandoned? Let's let's make sure that we're, you know, scheduling time for sex, for instance, or making sure that we have that critical time right before we fall asleep or first thing in the morning for some cuddle time. Sometimes just by opening that dialogue and identifying what's the underlying fear, couples can come up with a solution. I love that because I think some, and for this listener, it turns into this idea of like clinging to this symbol of intimacy. I don't know how to say it, but like clinging to the symbol of intimacy and forsaking real intimacy. Exactly. So you can instead,

Okay, sleeping together is a symbol of intimacy, but if she leads with, I want to be intimate, I'm attracted to you, I want to make time for sex, I envision this, I envision waking up and coming into the bed with you and, you know, maybe having sex first thing before I get dressed, or these are the ways that, and making it kind of like fun and interesting and exciting to try something new, maintaining intimacy instead of just this thing that's supposed to symbolize intimacy. Exactly. You're right. It's maintaining the symbol of intimacy at the expense of actually doing something that could enhance your intimacy. As we talked about that, you know, sleep is very, so critical, you know, for sexual activity and sexual pleasure. And so again, maybe like,

let's stack up the list of, you know, what are the benefits of us both sleeping well for our relationship and what are the costs? And sort of evaluating that and how can we balance, again, the cost and really honoring and respecting, you know, his concerns. And it sounds like, you know, she has a lot of concerns, too, about what this would mean, you know, kind of moving through this idea that's, you know, sleeping apart or considering some other sleeping arrangement is necessarily a failure in the relationship. How do we unpack that and really say, you know, turn that on its head. Aren't you actually striving to maximize your relationship by supporting sleep, which is the very foundation of healthy relationships and healthy well-being.

So I think we really just need it to kind of turn the conversation on its head as a pro-relationship activity rather than something that is forsaking your needs for mine or forsaking the relationship for, you know, my frivolous need for sleep. And it's just not frivolous. Totally great. It seems like I think we've talked to another expert on like MDMA therapy or something. And this seems to be like an entirely ego-based problem because, you know, if you take the ego out of it, and with the meaning behind it, it really becomes almost like a mechanical, like physical issue

as opposed to a like mental issue. It is, except that like sleep. That's why it's one of the things, sleep is so fascinating. There is sort of this mechanical issue. And yet sleep is intricately tied with our relationships. And it does speak to our sort of basic vulnerability as humans. And so is no accident that, first of all, that I find, you know, that I'm in this field in the first place, but like her words themselves speak to this just close connection between, you know,

our deepest vulnerability in the context of our relationships and our deepest vulnerability in sleep. Like, they are connected. And it's, I think partly because sleep itself is a vulnerable state to be in, you know, you're lying down, you're semi-conscious, you're vulnerable to potential threats from the environment, at least in an evolutionary perspective. And we as human beings, we derive our sense of safety and security from our social connections. So I think we're really hardwired sort of to see the social embeddedness of sleep. And so while I think the psychological need for closeness at night is very real and I think is partly hardwired, sometimes it's in conflict with sort of the mechanics and the physical aspect. And again, it's okay.

And I think like giving couples permission to realize, oh, I might have this sort of psychological. need or want, but it's not working with sort of the mechanics of the situation, which is I'm frankly just not sleeping well. And so like that's when you have to sort of, you know, really balance sort of like, what are we getting out of this and recognizing that psychological need, how do you serve that psychological need for closeness and security, which is particularly salient at night, but also acknowledge, well, but if we're not sleeping well, that's definitely not serving the relationship. Totally. I mean, that leads me to the whole question of like sleeping with kids. Maybe that'll be chapter two. Oh, you're going to have to bring me back for a long conversation for that one. But I'm, you know, obviously the whole like vulnerability at night and safety and but I'm not sleeping. But, you know, so yeah, maybe we'll have you back for that one. But this, I mean, this whole thing is so fascinating. And just something that I personally, even as a psychologist, haven't really thought about in terms of relationship quality that much. So.

I'm so thankful that we got to have you on here to do this. Well, it's my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can they find you if they want more? Where do they find? The book, everything. So again, thank you so much. It's just been a pleasure to talk to you both.

My book, again, is called Sharing the Covers Every Couple's Guide to Better Sleep. I have a website, wendytroxel.com. I'm also on Twitter, Wendy Troxel. And again, for those couples who might be struggling, as your listener was and wrote that so beautiful letter, please consider the mattress firm sleep marriage consultation contest. You have to go to the website and apply and some lucky couples will get a consultation with me and I would be delighted to help you with your sleep challenges. Awesome. And to enter, you can go to mfrm sleepmarriage contest.com, mfrm sleepmarriage contest.com

to enter the mattress firm contest to get a consultation with Dr. Troxel. Thank you again for coming on. This was awesome. have to have you back when we get to, you know, how to get your kids to sleep or whatever other issues Naomi's having at the moment. We can go deep on that one. All right. Let's do it. Thanks so much. And we'll be right back with some intentions. And now it's time for a special segment brought to you by the Not vendor marketplace. With the easy to use filters like location, ratings, aesthetic, and more. The Knot helps take the stress out of your vendor search. Visit the knot.com slash oversharing to get started today. Each week, we answer.

an email from a listener who was looking for help, setting intentions for their big day, and help them quell their pre-wedding jitters. Let's get into this week's email. Hi, Jerdin and Dr. Naomi, I'm a huge fan of the show and I started out as a U-Up listener many years back when I had no idea what I was doing while dating. It has been great to have had the chance to evolve alongside Betches and both of these shows, as I am now writing in for an intention regarding my engagement. Growth. I am 29 and just got engaged a few weeks ago, and my mother-in-law is already driving me crazy. For context, my mom and I have always had a difficult and complicated relationship, but the rest of my family is amazing, sane, and super close.

So I try to put up with her bullshit for the greater good of the family. Talking to my mom about anything beyond the surface level almost always transports me back to being a pissed off, moody teenager with a bad attitude. This ends up upsetting me more as acting this way is not in alignment with the happy and positive person that I usually am. For this reason, including my mom in the more personal aspects of my life, is often avoided. My mom is thrilled that I'm getting married and has already called me many times to monologue about venues and guest lists and wedding dresses. I told her right off the bat that we

are waiting at least two years before having a wedding, but that has not stopped her. I even lightheartedly reminded her that she shouldn't get too carried away as everyone in the family jokes about how unconventional and non-traditional I am and how my wedding planning style will be no different. I find myself becoming so anxious and irritable when my mom brings up wedding plans despite the fact that I I've effortlessly and excitedly talked about wedding stuff with my friends and other family members without a problem. I'm happy that she is so excited for me and I don't want to take that away from her, but I know that this is going to become a vehicle for control in the future and it's only going to get messier and messier. What is an intention I can set for remaining positive and engaged while discussing these topics with my mother and not letting past resentments put a dark cloud of anxiety and teenage attitude over what should be a happy conversation? and how can I stop myself from spiraling when I think about how much worse it's going to get

once there are more concrete plans being made. If I can't even handle her texting me about dresses, how am I going to feel when I'm actually dress shopping and she insists on coming, asserting her unwanted opinion on what I've chosen? Mommy's little betch. All right. I can totally get this. She doesn't say much about what has gone on between her and her mom that makes this

relationship difficult. So it's a little bit harder to understand what exactly she's worried about. I think just her mother's opinion, like, annoys her generally. Yeah. I think there was also something in there that I was getting that, like, maybe she just feels like her mom doesn't really know or understand her. And I think that dates back to maybe this like teenage angst. And she's talking about how, like, the rest of her friends and family would call her like untraditional or unconventional and maybe a little bit alternative and it probably brings back the sense of maybe her teenage years when her mom maybe wanted her to act a certain. This is again me sort of guessing, but it seemed like there was some hints into something in her teenage years where she felt like her mom wanted something done her way

and didn't understand her. It sounds like the classic teenage angsty trope of like, you don't understand me. Right, right, right, right. And maybe it's overflowing into this thing where maybe she still has a sense of like her mom wants her to be a certain way. and doesn't fully get her. It's just something I was assuming. I can see that. I can see how you would get to that. And I do think there's a piece of this that sounds like that.

Like she sort of doesn't want to hear her opinion because it sounds like perhaps her opinion doesn't take the listener's opinion into account or identity or that type of thing. So I can definitely see that. I guess the question for her is how do I, it sounds like what she's, she's trying to do is chill out and be nicer to her mom and not get so triggered and worked up by what's going on. Like it's this isn't this doesn't sound like a boundary setting email. This sounds more like I want to like kind of be able to relax into this. Right. It sounds like my mom I'm always my mom is

always everything my mom says is always annoying me. How do I not become a person who's like, I can understand this too. It's like, how do I not be that person who's like yelling at their mom? Yes. And you know, you know, there's always that thing where it's like when people see you yelling at your mom that you always look like the crazy one and your mom always looks like she's just being sweet and offering to do something. And only you, only you know why like the thing that she's doing is really annoying. Yes, that's exactly I think what this, you hit the nail on the head. That's what's happening here. There's like some deeper issue and it might be exactly what you said. my mother doesn't see me, she doesn't know me, she doesn't get me, she, you know, we're not

connecting, trying to lead me in a direction, and maybe this is part of it too, she's leading me in a direction where she wants me to go, whether it's about what type of dress she wants me to wear or what type of wedding she thinks I should have versus trying to really lead me in a direction of what's going to make me happy and what I want, which is such a beautiful thing when that can happen for a wedding, you know, when there's someone in your life that's kind of like, let's talk about what you want and how can I be supportive in getting you what you want so that you're the happiest at the end of this. That's pretty rare, but it doesn't, you know, which I'm sure you'll be like that. I hope so. I really do because you kind of have to just not care that much to be that

person where you sort of like the whole point of this is that you have the best day ever. And it doesn't matter if I think your dress is too revealing, if it makes you feel good about yourself, then like, that's great, you know? Yeah, you just have to take your own, like, whatever, how whatever is going on reflects on you out of the equation entirely in order to be, I think, the best version of someone's mother in a wedding. Yes. And interestingly enough, I think that's a problem that parents have in general is like that their children are a reflection of them. you know like if my daughter's wedding is xyz then that means this about me or even just not the like in general people feeling like oh if my kids you know get into this college then it means

i did a good job then i can tell everyone that my it's about like what you can tell people or you know an extension of yourself or living vicariously through your child i think sometimes happens and i think it can you know again talking talking talking about, you know, the symbol of intimacy versus the reality of intimacy, the symbol of a good parent versus the reality of a good parent. Like, you know, I always think about the show dance moms or any kids that are like phenoms in their, like a, you know, these seven-year-olds that are doing, like, you know, doing these double back. Yes, I'm sort of like behind every one of those, and I'll say not every single one, but behind most of those is somebody who's like,

holding the whip and like really severely like controlling that child and probably somehow doing that because they're living vicariously through them. Yes, every now and then you get someone who's just like totally naturally talented and oozing out of them like a soulful thing. I mean, they just play basketball like Michael Jordan and they were just born that way. But parents will look to that as like success means my child is, you know, a phenom at this thing. or they got into Harvard or they did whatever it is. And sometimes that is more a sign of a parent who's been standing behind them with a whip the whole time.

And maybe they haven't been, not always, but I think there are sometimes when the symbol of success through a child isn't always truly success. So we're speculating on what this listener's going through, but I do think that some of this might be her, just reacting to a teenage association that she has that might not be serving her anymore. Because her mother isn't, you know, living in the house with her, controlling what she does,

constantly giving her comments or feedback or whatever she was doing when she was a teenager that made her so irritable. So maybe there is a chance that she can be different and that she's not going to try to be however she was overbearing or whatever it was that she was doing before. So maybe she can be open to her mother, the potential for her mother to change and certainly be open to the potential for herself to be able to set boundaries and kind of say, all right, got to go. Right.

And hang up the phone or. Yeah. I think it's easier if you believe and you know that you can leave at any time to be pleasant. Yes. In the beginning. Yes. Because you're like, I don't need to like set the groundwork for leaving by being a bitch. Like I can just come into this really happy and then maybe they won't be annoying.

And if they are, I can just like exactly like you said, say, I've got to run by before you start like being whiny or annoying. Right. And I think she's probably reacting to, again, I always talk about like in your body, there's something happening in her body when she hears her mother's voice on the phone that's like, triggering this, you know, memory or situation that occurred earlier in her life. And if we can kind of rewire that reaction, whereas at that time she didn't have an escape and now she does, I think she'll be able to calmly kind of be like, all right, I'm just going to go into this positive. Maybe she'll give me a nice suggestion. Or maybe I'll be able to say, you know what, that's not really my style. I'll send you some stuff on Pinterest that I like. That is my style. And we can go from there. Or maybe

she can just try a new way of communicating with her mother and perhaps she'll be surprised. And she can kind of lean into it. And if she's not surprised and the mother comes back with something that doesn't feel good for her, she can end the interaction, either A, end the interaction at any time. Or B, communicate. This makes me feel like you don't get me. This, that comment that you're not listening. Yes. That comment. that you just made makes me feel like you weren't listening when I said X, Y, Z, or that you don't really know me. And that might be, we're speculating this, but if, you know, that might be a part of this. You know, it's like the teenage girl that goes shopping with the mom and they're like,

oh, why don't you get this? And it's like, did you, have you ever seen me wear something like that, ever? Like, are you looking? Are you watching? Like, do you see me at all? Or you just want me to be a mini version of you. Right. I totally agree. And do you, so do you have an intention of something that she could say, or she could say to herself before maybe talking to her mom about the wedding in particular? Sure. So, um, I wrote, I intend to allow space for change and trust my ability to set boundaries. So open up, see if she could be different. See if maybe she'll do something. And the change could be in your mom or the change could be in the way you communicate with your mom, like we just said. That comment makes me feel like you weren't listening. And that's change.

So I intend to allow space for change and trust my ability to set boundaries. And if that change doesn't happen and it feels like something offensive or something that feels like she's not being helpful or she's being critical, then set the boundary, I got to go, hang up, you know, and be done with it because it is different when you were younger and you couldn't really do that. And I think the way to do that is by like taking that pause and taking that breath and realizing it within that breath, I am not my teenage self anymore. Like that. Yeah.

You know, like her just realizing that like she can, she is more resilient now or she can be more resilient now to her mother's aggravations than she was when she was a teenager. Because it does sound like a lot of this is coming from, you know, maybe some older stuff where she was like stuck in this thing that she couldn't get out of. And now it just is sort of, you know, an annoyance. But hopefully calming her body in that moment can help her be like, okay, this is an annoyance, like traffic is an annoyance. This is an annoyance, like rain when you wanted to go for a walk is an annoyance.

Right. Changing it from, this is like this childhood, deep, intense, like reminding me of something else annoyance. And if you want, you can listen to our calm the fuck down meditations. We have meditations for dealing with a difficult family member. Yes. If you're about to see or speak to a difficult family member, you can listen to that one. It'll be a whole five minute reset before you get into it. Totally.

And there's a chance that maybe if she injects, some calmness and positivity. And I see this with like mother-daughter relationships a lot where it's like there's like this just general, you know, go-to of being annoyed and irritable. And then that doesn't bring out the best in the mother either if the daughter is like just heading into every interaction with like ready to battle and be annoyed. So maybe if you soften, maybe she'll soften or she'll change a little bit. But being open to that, I think is important. I agree. Fake it till you make it. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. That works sometimes. Another great way to alleviate your pre-wedding stress is to check out the Not Bender Marketplace. Thanks again to our sponsor, the Not Vender Marketplace. When searching for that special someone to bring your wedding vision to life, it helps to have the inside scoop, and the Knots got it. Maybe you want an ice cream cake to commemorate your first date at a Sunday shop

or to hire a marching band as a nod to your first kiss at Bandcamp. Whatever feels authentically you. Find it on the not vendor marketplace. Thousands of couples who know what it's like to be in your shoes have left reviews and ratings, helping you connect with vendors you can trust. All you have to do is visit the knot.com slash oversharing to find top rated vendors near you. Okay, let's do some triggers. You ready?

I am ready. Do you want to do the first one? Yeah, I'll read the first one. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, I have a triggered scenario for you. This summer, my boyfriend of two years whom I live with will be attending two weddings with me as my guest. I asked him if he could pay for half the. wedding gifts as I had been complaining about how expensive it is to attend weddings these days

and hoped he could share this cost with me as he'll also be enjoying the weddings. He told me that a $300 gift per couple was outrageous and questioned why he is responsible for funding their weddings, stating that it's, quote, their choice to choose to have an expensive wedding and doesn't understand how wedding culture has become a societal norm. He ultimately didn't say that he wouldn't help at all, but seemed to suggest he didn't want to pay more than $50 per wedding, as that's what he feels the meal should cost. Here's why I'm triggered. My boyfriend is in no way hurting for money.

We recently signed a legal agreement, in fact, to protect against his nearly $1 million in assets as I will soon be going on the mortgage of his existing house. Although I have a good paying job, I have very minimal savings, and I'm just starting out on my savings and investments journey. How triggered can I be that he just can't pay half the cost of the gifts. Thanks.

This is an interesting one. I almost feel like this is a betchesist. But I mean, here's the thing. I do think they're her friends. To me, if they just started dating, I think she should pay for the whole wedding gift. It seems like they're in a serious relationship as she's going on his mortgage.

Yes. So to me, that changes the idea of like how much they should be splitting. And then it creates more of an issue of like, what are your money values? Yes. Right? And now it's more about. that. If it was the beginning of the relationship, I think it's about like the ethics of who should pay,

like she should, if you're inviting someone as a guest to a wedding that you know, I think you should give the gift. Like if a man I just started dating, invited me to a wedding. And then asked you to pay for the gift. Yeah. Right. I wouldn't be like super down to pay half of the gift. Right. But it seems like they're in a serious committed relationship. And so the question is more about like the amount that he's willing to pay and his cheapness. Right. Well, I agree with it. I agree with you, I also think there is, he's using this opportunity to like buck the trend and express his displeasure with the general wedding culture. So I think even bringing up, that's also a good point. Yeah, bringing up this thing of like, okay, maybe she could agree with him and say, I agree with you.

I think it's crazy. You know, like the meal really should, shouldn't cost more than $50 a plate or whatever it is. And yes, the wedding culture, if she does feel this way, has gotten a little bit out of hand. However, we are not going to change all of that by the amount of the gift that we give. In fact, it might, you know, make me feel kind of embarrassed the next time I see this couple or I might feel badly because, you know, whatever her reasoning. I think this might be a conversation where you can dig a little deeper and kind of be like, I get that you, you know, maybe this is him setting the tone somehow for like their wedding and what his expectations are for like how much they're going to get involved in the wedding culture and that type of

thing. So I do think that this is probably significant of some type of a deeper thing. The general triggered of like how triggered that he's only willing to pay the $50, if everything else is exactly the same and he's generous and she feels like most other financial things are fine and he's just taking a stand on this one issue because he for whatever reason feel strongly about it then I feel like, all right, just suck it up and pay the extra money because you would have had to do it anyway. I agree. But I think it's very unlikely that that's the case. Right. Right. But I give it a four if that was the case. If this was like a random thing that he was just like, I happen to hate this whole idea that we have to pay $300 to attend a wedding.

Right. But the way she even describes the amount of money he has by saying like he has over a million dollars in assets, he's having me sign a thing to protect his assets from me. Yes. For when we sign this mortgage, to me, means there's a lot more conversations to be had about the way that money is shared as a couple, the way that you look at your finances as joint versus separate. And that's a, you know, I understand why she's writing in as the trigger for this thing

because it's so hard to, to address that head on. It feels so, it feels like the last thing you want to talk about with someone you're dating because it's so unsexy. But if they are, if she is going on a mortgage with him, I think that this is probably, she should, she could use this as a segue into a conversation about how they see money and how they see sharing things. And I would look into that. Yes, totally. And I, you know, I'm not that knowledgeable about this, but it is sort of interesting,

given what you're saying, that she's going on the, she says she's going on the mortgage. She doesn't say she's going on the house, which is interesting. It's like she's going on the portion where you have to pay for the house, but not the actual house. I don't know if that was just omitted or what the deal is with that, but I definitely think that you're right. This probably begs a conversation, one, about weddings, wedding culture. that whole why he feels so strongly about that particular issue and two what are we doing with finances going forward is like mine is mine yours is yours and if that's how it is then she's got it kind of if she's agreeing to that then yeah she's paying for the gift yeah i think i'm sorry dear

writer but your problems are a lot bigger than this triggered i think yeah just at least worth a serious conversation because i do think if he's just protecting everything and sort of like, and that's okay if that's how, if they agree to that. Right. But I definitely think that if that's what it's going to be, then yeah, you've got to take these things on your own despite how much money he has. So all these little things kind of pop up for a reason. That being said, if he has way more money than her and they're going to the wedding together

and she asked him for help and he's not helping her, I could see that feeling. triggering. So I don't know. Maybe I'd give this like a... Right. Five, four. Okay, that's fair. Yeah, I give it a four.

I think, I agree if like he's make... It's annoying that he's making it about like society. I hate when people do that. It's like, just say that you're like, you don't feel like paying this much money. Right. I'd almost respect it more. We'll make it about like the principle of the matter. Right.

Right. Well, I'm curious if it really is or not. If he's generous in general, I don't think she really said that, although he... Something tells me, like, probably not. Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah, let's do another one. Hi, ladies, I wanted to share a triggered scenario with you and see what you think. My boyfriend and I went on a weekend trip with my friend and her boyfriend.

We had a campfire in the backyard of our Airbnb one evening. My friend went inside, came back out and said, Who left poop stains in the toilet while laughing? I'm sure we all knew I was the one who went inside before her, and both guys said it wasn't them. I didn't say anything, and we all kind of laughed it off. So yes, it was me. Maybe I'm a disgusting for not hunting down something to clean it up or being worried about it, but I didn't expect anyone to pay that much attention.

I never said anything to my friend, but that callout didn't feel good. Sincerely, dropping logs at the fire. This is a nice, light-hearted one. to end the episode. This is funny. In my house, I always come out and I say, the duty fairy came. I mean, granted, I have small children, but I feel like for kids, it's less embarrassing. It's almost like funny for kids.

But I think if you said that like in front of Jeff and like four guests, I think like. Totally. And it's like kind of a romantic night of two couples are on the fire. It's not like, you know. I could totally see that's kind of she feels like it's ruining the vibe, you know, like they're having like a fun, sexy, like campfire night. And it's just like, oh yeah, yeah. That is embarrassing. What do you give this? I think I'd give it like a six and a half, six point five. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm married for, you know, almost 15 years and I'd still probably be embarrassed by this comment. Yeah. I mean, it's just not. in front of another couple. If they were alone together. It would be fun.

Maybe she thought it was one of the guys. Right. In which case, it's almost less embarrassing, I think, if it's. Right. Or if she thought it was her own husband. Right. Or something. Yeah.

I guess we could give her the benefit of the doubt and say maybe that's what she thought. But yeah, I would have been embarrassed. Would you, would you call that out if you were on like a, no way? No way. No way. That's just not necessary. I mean, it was my kids in my own house. house and like the privacy of our own house.

It's funny. Right. But like with another. To a friend. Yeah. I would agree. I think just if we call triggering like that that sensory thing that comes over you where you're like, oh my God, I just got like a chest pang as I'm sitting here and

everyone's like looking at me and I know that it's me and I have to kind of like now do I fess up? Right. And she sounds like she kind of froze and just didn't say anything, which is probably what I would do too. Totally. Like are we going to just stare at each other? until someone figures this out or are we going to move on? I mean, what's you going to say?

Like, not me. That sounds worse. Right. This is funny, but yeah, I would have, I definitely feel like it's triggering. I would agree. I like your score. It's like seven's extremely triggering and I don't think it's like to that point because it's amongst friends and it's like.

It's embarrassing though. A poo, but five feels like too low. So I'll go with six. All right. We'll keep it at a six. though. We'll get rid of the half point. This was fun. This was...

Good episode today. This was fun. I can't wait for the next one. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Pucco, and Rebecca Souselmachan. Editing by Missileo Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander.

Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches.