Oversharing - Is The Division Of Parenting Labor Destined To Be Unequal?

Episode Date: October 24, 2022

Jordana Abraham and Dr. Naomi Bernstein are back for another special crossover episode of Betches Moms and the Oversharing podcast. This week they’re talking about parents who struggle to split the “mental load” equally and what to do when there’s an imbalance. They share examples of splitting duties with your partner, as well as examples of the unseen emotional weight that one parent often takes on. Plus, they offer some practical tips for finding balance in the division of labor and sharing the mental load. Finally, they read a listener-submitted No Mom Guilt all about taking a moment away from your kids to look out for yourself. Are children better off if they learn to spend time away from their parents? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to another special crossover episode of Betches Moms and the Oversharing podcast. I'm Trinana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And today we're back to talk more about parenthood, mental health, where the two intersect,

And, you know, I feel like fighting with your spouse when you have kids because I hear a lot about that from my friends with kids. And, you know, it makes me very excited to enter that phase of my life. But if you missed it last week, Dr. Naomi and I talked about kids and social media. So check that out. And then on the heels of that, did you want to discuss what you said you were up last night and you found something very interesting for the listeners? Unfortunately, I was up way past my 11 o'clock bedtime. And I was on the Boston Children's Hospital website, and they have a whole entire family digital wellness lab, which is basically all this research that they have done in terms of how, just on the

heels of what we talked about last time, how different types of media affect kids at different ages and not just like the hunches about that or the things that people are throwing around about that, but the actual hard research, longitudinal research that they're doing. about that. So you can click on the age of your child and you can find out all of the details. And they have this big, which is where I was down the little rabbit hole of the frequently asked questions section of this family digital wellness lab where they talk about smartphones and social media, screen time, what type of screen time and everything specified by age. And then they also had the ask the mediatician section, which was really kind of cool because

I have a lot of questions myself about, I mean, I have my hunches about what I see and my kids and what I notice, but it's a really great resource to get actual information, research back information. So I wanted to throw that out there for the listeners. I mean, I think that's great. At first, it's funny, at first, like hearing of a mediatrician, you think it kind of sounds like a little absurd. But I think the more you really think about it, it makes a lot of sense because like, what do you do with a dietitian or a nutritionist? It's like you think about all the food that you're consuming and you think about a way to do it more mindfully in a way that better suits whatever your, you know, nutrition diet goals

are. And this is basically like a diet for your media intake. Exactly. I think it's so interesting. You know, I think also the concept of really just doing it intentionally instead of just, you know, throwing it out, throwing whatever you, your hunches are, or whatever, throwing it against the wall, seeing what works and what doesn't, you can kind of do it with more intention, like exactly what you're saying, anything like that, food or exercise or whatever.

So I think it's pretty cool to have, you know, the actual research instead of just us guessing, because there are some types of screen time for kids that are good for them that really aren't bad and that you don't have to feel guilty over. So it's nice to get that information too. Like I found myself scanning through all the information and this was just my own process of paying attention to my own thoughts as I was doing it. And I found myself like zoning in on the ones that I wasn't doing right. You know, zoning it on the ones that felt like I was, you know, criticizing myself for not doing something. And then I had to catch myself and kind of focus on all the ways that I was doing the right thing.

You mean in relation to like media and your kids? Yeah. So if it said something like, oh, these types of apps are better than these types of apps, I would be like, oh, God, yesterday I let him use that for, you know, an hour and that wasn't the right thing instead of, you know, the whole page of information before that, that was explaining all the things that I was doing right and that were beneficial. You kind of like skip over that and look for the ones that you're not doing right. So I would use this information consciously in terms of like not trying to.

to beat yourself up, but just, you know, be informed. Yeah, I think it's such a great resource because, I mean, when we were kids, there wasn't as much to do digitally or in media or online. It was like TV and like sometimes you went to the movies. Right. And like you watched whatever it was on or it wasn't on. And now I think the idea of because you can have it all, kind of like with food, it's like you used to have to like hunt and get your own food and now like you could have

it all whenever you want it. So the idea that like teaching kids from a young age how to think about that. Yeah. Mindfully or like really, you know, pay attention to how does what I'm consuming make me feel? Like just like how does this food make me feel? Like does it work for me or does it not work for me? Such a, such a cool important thing that I think for especially for this generation and I'm sure even more for any generations to come will be so critical.

So I love that. Yeah. And realizing just because. And this is what I always tell my kids. And you're old enough that when we were young, if you, sometimes you had to, you know, if you wanted to watch a show, you had to wait for the time that the show was on. And then you got to watch one episode of the show.

And that was it. Now, you know, you can binge an entire season. So it's like food. It's kind of like, just because you can watch another episode doesn't mean you necessarily should. Yeah. Unless there was like a marathon on. and that was like the best Sunday ever. There was like some like TBS marathon of some show that you liked.

All right. Kids these days. So anyway, so I was down that whole rabbit hole of trying to analyze how much social media and media and whatever was good for the kids while Jeff was snoring soundly beside me. Unconcerned. Well, I think that's a great segue into like what I want to talk about next. And I mean, just before we get into that, I just wanted to say Boston Children's Hospital is sponsoring this episode. And if you have kids, you definitely have questions, especially when it comes to their health. And the experts at Boston Children's Hospital have answers.

From sniffles to something a little more serious, Boston Children's is here to help from primary care to the rarest of the rare and everything in between. Boston Children's has an expert for your family. And on like on that note, I think when you're doing this deep dive into, you know, the way your kids are consuming media or what's going on with them. or probably anything. I think I hear this a lot for my friends with kids who are married. And I feel like the biggest complaint that I hear, and I'm not, I don't have kids yet, so I'm not going through this, is that there's an uneven division of responsibility and that like the default is for the mom to do everything.

And it seems unfair, especially in, you know, a world where all the moms I know have jobs of their own. So it's not like their only job is to take care of the kids. I do hear a lot how it's like, it kind of like, whenever the guy does something, it's like amazing and they, the sort of like default is that they're doing the planning or they're doing the, you know, the making sure the homework is done or even just like stuff around the house. Do you, do you hear a lot of that in your couples therapy things?

Oh, for sure. I think it just comes out in terms of like some. Sometimes it's not even verbalized. It's more like this passive, aggressive, low-level resentment that happens as a result of that, which is very poisonous. But, you know, it's funny because I wonder, you say you can't really relate because you don't have kids, but I wonder if even in the context of timelines, right? Like, I think for you, maybe you do carry the mental load of like the timeline.

So you're kind of, would, might be thinking things more of like, well, we should have kids now because we don't want to be old parents and we don't want we want to have energy or maybe you're doing the research on like the percentages of the decline and the number of ovarian reserve and you know so like maybe you are carrying some mental load in terms of like your you know future children and how they're going to turn out i wonder yeah no i think that's definitely true especially when you're with someone who's the same age as you and you know i mean like women obviously have a much, I would say have a much more less flexible time, like portility timeline. So it definitely is a bigger burden or bigger weight on my head, I think, than something

that he's thought about consistently as he was dating or then, you know, going through the steps of marriage and kids. So I definitely feel that. But that I'm kind of like, all right, fine. that's like a biology like and again if I maybe if I married someone who was like four or five years older than me and all of their friends were having we're like already you know we're in the same phase as my friends now or something like that I think that maybe that would make more sense I don't really hold that against him and maybe some people would but I'm kind of like that's just

a difference in like our circumstances and in some ways it's kind of like nice that the both of us aren't like freaking out. Yes. Yes. Like it brings me a little bit like grounded and back down to earth when I'm like there's not like the, there's maybe up an internal pressure, but it's not really coming from like my partner. Yeah.

You always bring up that movie, um, knocked up. Knocked up. Is that where she goes? I want, I want you to care more. Yeah. You know, and it's sort of like she's, you know, she's like doing the, uh, pedophile, you know, directory research and he's just kind of like relax like we don't need to you know identify every pedophile within a 200 mile radius of our house and she just wants him to like care about something

that has to do with their kids so I think it just brings up the idea of balance like what you're saying so right yes it is exhausting and I do talk to a lot of moms that have that carry this mental load of motherhood and they want their husband to carry a little bit more of that but in the flip side to play devil's advocate, I think it's nice to sort of have that person keep you in check in terms of, is the entirety of my mental load necessary? Or are there things here in this mental load that I can let go of a little bit? Rather than what I think sometimes happens is you cling to it because you are almost like, I don't know, a lot of couples get into this martyr thing. I don't know if you like um okay who's more stressed or who has it harder or who's working more or who's

enjoying less and you get into this sort of silent battle where then the mental load it almost like um it almost suits you to hold more of the mental load because then when the kid poops his pants and you have the bag with the change of clothes you can kind of be like see and i remembered the change of clothes versus like okay if the if you forgot the change of clothes and he also forgot the change of clothes you strip the baby down to their diaper and you put them in a diaper with a blanket on top or whatever you know yeah um well i think a lot of those things could be it's kind of like yeah i agree like there's some there's an element of okay like i'm the one who thought to bring this and so like i'm better or i'm like better parent or i'm like more on top of it or like what would you do without

me right right but And then on the other hand, it's kind of like, well, if I don't do this, no one's going to do this. So I think there's that aspect of it. And then it's kind of like, well, you get to not care because I care so much. And I've talked about this with like work too, where I find that sometimes someone cares so much that they take all the energy. They take like that whole thing upon themselves. And there's not really any room for anyone else to to care about it. So the other person almost backs off by default. And I do this. A lot of this. time, not with like family planning or like household stuff, but with with work, sometimes if there's someone who's got like a like a super type A personality where they're like intensely like

concerned about something not going. Right. I'm like, all right, I can relax about this. Right. Because someone else is already like very on top of it. Whereas if that person was like out, let's say they were out or not involved in a project, I would find myself taking on more of that role because I'm like, okay, there's like room for me to to make moves here or to like to move the needle, whereas I don't, I'm not, there's not this other person who's making me feel like anything I'm doing for this might be actually not as good as they're doing it. And so what's the point of doing it at all? Yes. Yes. And I think there is like a too many cooks in the kitchen thing sometimes where if you want like, if that type A person wants it done a certain way, I think that's a

dynamic that happens a lot between couples. And we talked about this was a birthday gift where it's like, I wanted a certain way, but I want it to be your idea to do it the exact way that I want it. So I think in this regard, sometimes that happens where, you know, if you want it a certain way or there's certain things that are important to you and he's doing it, I'm just using gender stereotypes, but he's doing it a different way. And then you unknowingly kind of criticize the way that he's doing it or, you know, make a comment about the way he's doing it. Now he's going to back off and just kind of be like, all right, just tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it exactly the way you want it instead of him getting in this position where he's

trying and it's not right and then he has to keep trying and it's not quite right. And that doesn't really feel good. So a lot of times you end up just backing off. Totally. And I feel like that happened. That probably happens exponentially with kids because there's so many tiny little decisions, I assume every day where, you know, like obviously when a childless relationship at this point, like there's like the vacation thing that comes up.

or like, you know, I want you to load the dishwasher the way that I like to load the dishwasher, not the way that you're doing it because it's inefficient, which is a thing we frequently get into. But I assume when you have kids, it's like so many little things of like, you know, did you put the diaper on the right way? Or did you like, when I'm, if I, if you're watching the baby, did you give them the right snack at the right time and they're taking the nap at this time? And so I hear that a lot, you know, among people I know where it becomes like a little bit. there is that recurring issue of, you know, you want someone to feel like someone cares as much as you do. And in your mind, caring is doing it the way that you would, that you would do it.

Right. And I do think there's a bigger picture issue and this is probably a cultural thing or maybe even, it might even be like a DNA thing about women creating their identity more around their children. So it's sort of like how this turns out is going to be a big part of my identity. If my child is misbehaving in school or if my child is, you know, not hitting certain milestones with speech or walking or whatever, I think a mother might be more likely to take that as I'm doing something wrong. What do I have to do differently? This is my responsibility versus the father who might be able to be more like not taking it so personally and not creating an identity around it. So I think sometimes this mental load stuff comes along with creating an identity as a parent,

which just, I think, societally, it's not, you know, if you could creep inside the mind of a mom and a dad and give a number to the percentage of your identity that is wrapped up in doing that job, well, I think it would be higher for women than it would be for men. Yeah, on the whole, for sure. So that's why they're like just more thinking of it when, you know, the guy is probably like, well, it would be really amazing to me if I like did well in my fantasy football league. All my friends would think that I'm really smart and know a lot about sports and

that's part of my identity. So I'm going to put a little extra energy in that direction, you know, versus, you know, they're thinking more about that because that makes them feel good about themselves or, you know, a lot of it boils down to like the ego piece. Or like work a lot of the time. I think that's a very big, maybe bigger for, again, on average, the men in those like heteronormative relationships. I mean, so I guess what's the, what's the solution for that kind of thing?

In my mind, as I've encountered it again on the scale of like, okay, I'm going to plan the vacation because I want it done my way. How do I not get like resentful that I'm still doing the work? And I think, and I've said this to Mike where it's like, I don't need you to necessarily do anything. But when we're there, I just want you to say, this is an amazing vacation. Right. Did a great job. Right.

You planned this so well. I'm like having the best time. Right. Even that, I'm kind of like, okay, then the thing that I'm bringing to the table feels like I'm getting. And again, obviously you want them to try and put efforts in their own way. But for the things that you feel like you're doing, maybe disproportionately, I think it takes a lot of the edge off if you just feel from the other person that they like recognize that and they see it and they appreciate it.

100%. Yep. And so I think for couples, what is helpful is to have the conversation about the mental load of parenthood and talk about what that is, make both of you conscious of the fact that it's a real thing and that it's happening and that it is weighing you down. And within that conversation, you can have that other piece, which is like, That's fine. I know that it's not going to be top of mind for you to be researching developmental milestones and like making sure that the kids are hitting them on time. But it would feel really good

if, you know, when the kid starts talking or if the kid does something that seems like he's developing or she's developing that you could say, oh, wow, that's really cute. All that time that you spent with those black and white projector on the ceiling or whatever, you know, black and white shapes and the abstract thing and the music that you played and the, you know, all the, the mommy and me classes and just taking that moment to be like, I think that's really paying off or I think he's really learning or you're doing a great job stimulating him. So maybe you're not, he's not necessarily going to get out ahead of it. But I think just being able to get that positive feedback and say all that thought and effort that you're,

putting in is really paying off and I appreciate it because we you know it's paying off for me because I have this beautiful child as a result. Yeah. And I think the unique, I mean, it's tough because I feel like the initial urge is probably like, okay, let's make everything even, right? Let's like, let's divide all the household's childhood responsibilities like evenly, which I feel like is never really happening. And maybe it's because like you said that there's just not. as big of, it's not as big of a part of their identity. I don't want to say that to care less. Although again, that stuff brings you back to like the knocked out.

Care more. Conversation care more. But you can't really force someone to care more, especially in the way that you want them to show it. So it's tough to be like, all right, just accept that you, you're going to do more. Right. It's just going to happen. But.

So, look, I think if that is something, and you can try it, right? There's no harm in trying to say. and I have a couple that does this where they both, and they have found it helpful where they both write down like their individual to do lists and they put them on the fridge for them both to see. So they're both looking at everything on the other person's plate because a lot of that stuff is unspoken. You know, you're making the pediatrician appointment or you're, you know, all the things that

you're doing that you're, that the other person might just take for granted when it's on your to do list and they see it posted up somewhere where, you know, everybody can walk by and see what the other person's up to, it might make you one person able to say, you know what, your to do list is a lot longer than mine. Let me pitch in and help you with it, which I think is what happens for this couple,

because one person sees, okay, make this phone call, make that phone call, fill out that paper, do this form, you know, call this person and all of a sudden they're like, whoa, I didn't even realize you were thinking, order diapers, order this, you know, research formulas or whatever the stuff is that you're doing. If you write it,

it all down, which might be good for you because then you can kind of get it out of your mind and onto a piece of paper. And then it might be good for your partner to see, wow, there really is a lot of stuff here. And maybe I can just take a look at your list. And if I have a little extra time, I can cross one off for you. So I think you can start with that and try it. But I do think that probably in combination with just expressing a need for appreciation would probably be the best fix. Initial step. Right. Because I mean, I feel like you rarely find that. someone where it's all just like even Stephen like I don't think that ever is like really an attainable thing I think it's more and I don't even know if that's even the point right right yeah and it's it's

personality too it's some people are just more worried or concerned about certain aspects of your lifestyle or you know whatever's happening some you know one person might be more concerned about the house and the value of the home so that if you ever want to sell it one day, you'll have money for the family. And somebody else might be more concerned with, you know, making organic baby food from scratch and which are the more important things to worry about? Who's to say? Right.

Yeah. No, that's a good point. You know, you both have your mental load, I think, but I do think sharing it is helpful. Sharing it not in like a look what I did kind of thing, but just sharing it in like,

this is what fills my mind on a daily basis. And I want you to know, one, so you could be appreciative and two, maybe if you have a little extra time that day you can pitch in and that might would probably be appreciated. Right. And if you can't, just to tell someone that you, you know, you would,

you see, you see what they're doing. I think is always feels like that's the best way to not feel resentment is to be like, oh, this person sees and acknowledges and appreciates the things that I do even if they're not, again, completely even. And you could do that. And you would do that obviously. for them, I think is also the unseen things that they do.

Totally. And I think a lot of times just when another tip for parents is that like when your child is doing something cute and sweet and nice or they're learning something new or they're, you know, taking a new developmental step, it is nice to turn to the other parent and say, you're doing a really good job, you know, like look how loving she is. or you're, you know, you're doing a really good job. Like, you know, it, you know, it really seems to be paying off when you take her for walks or you let her help with the dishes or do the, you know, whatever these things are that the parent is doing.

I do think, you know, not just in remembering tasks, but in appreciating how, you know, their parenting is just creating a nice, kind, helpful child, that kind of thing. Yeah. No, that's very, very true. Because I mean, unlike things for like work where like you kind of, it's like a little, little bit more clear when someone's doing well, they get a raise or they get a promotion or something like that with like parenthood. I'm sure it's not quite as like objectively, you know, we're going to, we're celebrating you for this accomplishment because it feels like it's the kid, but it's like who's,

who's behind the kid. Totally. And it's easy to focus on the negative too. Like if a kid's throwing a tantrum, it's like, well, it's because you gave him too much sugar or they're not sleeping. Well, it's because you let him have screen time before bed. And, you know, a lot of times it's easy to focus on. on the things that we're not doing right than it is to focus on the most of the time, which is just kids being cute and like sweet. That's true. I heard on a podcast once something that stuck with me.

It was like the key, I think I might have mentioned it on this show too. It's like the key to a happy marriage is to focus on the thing that the other person does well that you like more. Oh yeah. And to try to like, try to focus less on the things

that you don't. don't like. Totally. Yeah. And I think that's great advice for parents, you know, just like notice the things that your partner is doing, which is a lot. I mean, unless you are with a total deadbeat, they're probably doing a lot. They're not doing as much as you, but they're still doing a lot of stuff. And then I think also just that, you know, for moms and we always, you know, we talked last time about like mom guilt, check yourself. Like, maybe you don't need to be carrying as much of this mental load. I know there's a lot. I'm in it too. There's signing up for sports and parent teacher conferences and you know, what are they eating? I know there's so much in there that feels really important,

but it's also important to check in with yourself in terms of like, is all of this stuff that I need to control? Or can some of this I just sort of let unfold and release myself from the mental load of it? And I'm sure there's a lot of it that you need to cling to, but some of it you might be able to let let go of a little bit. And I think that's a great segue into our no mom guilt section. All right, George, now it's time for a no mom guilt brought to you by Boston Children's Hospital. Betches Moms is all about sharing the all too familiar feelings of mom guilt and in the process, letting yourself off the hook. Also, there's nothing wrong with asking for help when it comes to the health of your child. So if you're looking for exceptional pediatric care, look no further than

Boston Children's. Okay, Dr. Naomi. Let's get into no mom guilt, I'll read it. I have a great no mom guilt for you that I think you'll find relatable. I have a three-year-old son and a daughter who just turned nine months. So as you can probably guess, I'm not finding a lot of me time these days. We actually have a ton of support from my parents and in-laws, but I find it hard to actually let go and step away from it all. My husband works in a hybrid model and went back to the office three days a week starting a few months ago. Ever since then, I've spent almost every waking moment with my children. Being with my kids is my absolute favorite thing, but I also feel guilty at the mere thought of being away from them.

Well, the other day I went and did something crazy. I actually booked an appointment with my GP for an annual physical. Wow. I know. I know unthinkable, right? It's the first time I've actually done something for myself that wasn't related to my kids and I'm pretty proud of myself. Leaving the house without them definitely had a tinge of guilt to it.

But then I thought of sending in this no mom guilt and it mostly faded away. It was actually really nice to break up my routine and take care of myself for once. Thanks for all that you do. and keep it up. I have to say, this depressed me a little bit. You know, part of me is looking forward to her. Having my blood pressure taken, stepping on the scale. Yeah, I do think it's touching on this idea, which I hear a lot.

And I've experienced it, too, about moms just feeling guilty, just being away from their kids, especially like in the very early, you know, days and weeks after they're born. but, you know, it's almost, it leads me to believe that a lot of moms probably need to hear this. Your kids need to be okay without you. It's good for them. So the part about that you need to make yourself the constant center of their universe at all times and that they need to know that you are there at every minute is doing a disservice. to them. So if that can alleviate your mom guilt by being able to say, it is beneficial for my kids

to be able, I'm not talking about a two-week-old baby or a month-old baby. Okay, that's a different story. Right. Or you're going away for a two weeks or a month even. Right. So within reason and engaging the age of the child and the length of your absence from them, it's really good for them to learn that, you know, grownups go away and then grownups come back. They can learn to trust that you're going to come back when you leave them and you come back. And on top of that, they can learn to trust that there are other people in the world that care about them and love them and can take care of them. I mean, I think sometimes just back, you know, touching back to what we talked about in terms of like, you know, the mothers taking the brunt sometimes of

motherhood is if you don't allow other people to bond with. your children because you're so guilty, then they're going to be super dependent on you for every single little thing. And that's going to just, you know, make that load even more intense. So I think for this listener, especially because this is not like she's going on a girl's spa, you know, trip for two weeks. This is, which would be fine, probably. Right. Which would also, which would also be fine. This is a trip to the doctor. So I think she probably needs to, to hear that it's not only is it okay for your kids to exist without you, but it's beneficial for them to learn that you can go away and you can come back

and build their sense of confidence in being able to be separated from you. I think that's a great one. And who knows, maybe when I'm a mom, I will be, you know. No, I mean, look, it's, it's hard, you know, until you're in it. And I think all that being said, when you have a tiny baby and you've just given birth, there is a lot of hormonal attachment stuff and anxiety and all of that that makes some of this feel a little bit less rational. But it's really good for kids to learn that they can be away from their parents and come back. I mean, you were a clingy little baby and look at all the

attachment issues that you had. I know. That's probably like I was saying, I was, I was too attached. That was the issue. I always think about you as like that little clingy little monkey. It was very cute, but maybe it didn't serve you always the best. It explains a lot to add all my attachment disorder issues. But anyway, that's it for no mom guilt brought to you by Boston Children's Hospital. If you have kids, you definitely have questions, especially when it comes to their health. The experts at Boston Children's Hospital have answers. They've been ranked the number one hospital in the nation by US News and World Report for nine years running.

with their comprehensive library of health information answers to your biggest questions are within reach. We love what Boston Children's Hospital is doing for families, so we're thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast. Learn more at Bostonchildrens.org slash get-dash-answers. That's it for this crossover episode of oversharing and Betch's moms. If you're a fan of Betch's moms and you'd like this episode, come check out the oversharing podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now. We have another full-length episode of oversharing coming out this week. Until then, follow at Betches' moms for more great content. All right, that's our time.

Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Pico, and Rebecca Salis McHale. Editing by Massilo Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to Oversharing at Betches.com. We'll leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294.