Oversharing - Sometimes You Should Go To Bed Angry

Episode Date: May 3, 2022

In the first ever episode of Oversharing, sisters Jordana Abraham and Dr. Naomi Bernstein kick things off with a conversation about why they wanted to host a podcast together, and where their shared love of therapy comes from. Plus, they tell us who gives the better advice. Then they dive into the Overshare email of the week, all about going through a difficult friend breakup. What’s the best way to approach a close friend about why you’ve lost touch? Next, they discuss a fascinating article from Esther Perel about the idea of “unconditional love” and why it’s not always practical. Is the conventional wisdom about going to be bed angry always useful? Finally, they play a round of Triggered, featuring a trio of touchy subjects to unpack. Send your emails to [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at: [phone] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome to Oversharing. I'm Jurgan Abraham and I'm clinical psychologist, Dr. Naomi Bernstein. And we are so excited to bring you this podcast from Betches. And really what we wanted to do with this podcast is, I mean,

A lot of you have been asking, you know, obviously I, you're probably more familiar with me, especially if you've listened to You Up or Betches Brides or the Ad Betches podcast. And a lot of people have been asking for a sort of a version of You Up that has interest in more long-term relationships and also something that gives advice about topics that are like not necessarily about dating, but give real advice from real people. And in this case, we wanted to bring in an expert. So I thought no one better than my big sister who's given me advice for 10 years and who's also a clinical therapist, Naomi. So how are we referring to you?

Dr. Naomi, Naomi, Naomi. Dr. Naomi is good. Naomi is fine too, but just to give the listeners a little bit of legitimacy and what I say versus just talking off the cuff. I like Dr. Naomi because it's like, it's kind of like, you know what I mean? It's like your therapist, but it's like your cool therapist who's like, you don't have to use my last name. First name therapist. Yeah. Exactly.

And I mean, the two of us have grown up together. We are 10 years apart, but we did come from sort of like a very large blended family that was very chaotic at a lot of times. And I think that's helped us both have like this interest in interpersonal relationships and sort of how to navigate them and how to take what's good from them and sort of like leave the things. things you learn from the past that don't serve you behind. And I've done that, you know, through giving completely unlicensed non-expert opinions on podcast for years. No, but yeah, your advice is great. You know, I think you've been through a lot and just having conversations throughout your whole life, you know, about interpersonal and dynamics allows you to just practice those thinking muscles. Do you ever listen, though, to the podcast

and you're like, I don't know if a therapist would say. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some things in there. But for the most part, I think you're pretty good. You know, you have a, I mean, you're in therapy too, which you've mentioned on the podcast before. So that really helps. Otherwise, you're just. Yeah. And how did you get into like wanting to be a psychologist? I assume like sort of a similar thing of like, I don't know if the stuff that I've been learning is right. Right. Well, you know what? Honestly, when I first knew I wanted to be a psychologist was my first bad breakup when I was 19 years. old and I was like devastated because somebody broke up with me and I was like this hurts so badly

I need to find a way to figure out how to make this not hurt so badly. So it was like kind of selfish in the beginning like I just wanted to heal myself and then once I was able to do that and I was like oh wow I kind of figured out this way to get through this thing. And I was like let me share this with the world. And then especially with something like breakups where it's like there's no real cut and dry like this is the solution. for a breakup. Do you know what I mean? Especially like, I'll get questions like that all the time. Like, how do I get over a breakup? Right. I'm like, I don't know. There's no like, you know what I mean? Like, there's no like pill. There's no like extremely straightforward like thing. There's like some

steps you can take, but it doesn't it's like psychology is like one of those things. I'm sure like a lot of people. I even in my own therapy sessions get frustrated with it because I was, I remember being like, this is taking like a long time. Just tell me what to do. Yeah. And that's, that's, it. Let me move on. No, it's true. Although with breakups, I always say my one piece of advice with breakups is no contact. Right. That definitely helps. That I think is a one-size-fits-all, helpful part of a very painful breakup. But other than that, there is no one answer. Yeah. It's like no actual contact, but then also no digital stalking. I think digital stalking really sets the breakup process back like years. Like I'm sure it used to be when you were 19,

to age you. No, but there was none of that. But I'm sure it was much, like, it's like, okay, they broke up with you and then you, like, never saw them again. And then maybe you heard, like, through the grapevine, like, years later that they got married. The biggest thing was you see a friend of theirs out at a party or something. And then it, like, stirs up all that stuff. That was it.

It wasn't, you know, you weren't sitting at home in your bed looking at pictures of what they were doing in that exact moment. That would have been. It's crazy. I mean, yeah. So that's how it is. And I consider digital stalking contact. Okay.

That's in the contact range. Yes. That's a whole, okay, well then I would be very bad at that breakup role. I still occasionally like take a little peek. Your ex-boyfriend stuff. At people,

yeah, people I used to date. I mean, now it's like fine, I think because it's like, I'm over it. But in the moments where you're still kind of in it, it's like it's just kind of just like reopening the womb over and over and

over again. Oh my gosh. And it's so tempting and so easy. But also, I mean, like, again, like I use therapy and your advice and other things to get to sort of like figure out how to be in a long-term relationship, newly married. And so I'm excited for us to sort of dive into like the whole new set of problems that comes with, you know, in addition to dating, just sustaining a long-term relationship, which I think a lot of people, especially when you're single are like, yeah like that sounds like that part's easy like once you get in they think the hard part is like getting into it which you can be right right but then once you're there it's like a whole new set of things it's like how do we keep the relationship healthy keep it alive and keep it exciting i guess yeah for sure

and also keep the drama i mean you could continue drama into a relationship you know that too it doesn't end when you're dating like just keeping the drama free and argument free and conflict free and it's never going to be conflict-free. But, you know, I think, and I'd like to help listeners just change their general mindset because first it's dating, then it's long-term relationship, then it's parenting issues, then it's, you know, I mean, you're, you know, just changing your whole mindset to weave through your entire life and find kind of peace and balance. Right.

So do you find that like relationships are a special beast or like, is it just as complicated when you're talking about a relationship with like your, which we're all going to talk about all sorts of relationships, friends, coworkers, parents, whatever. Like,

do you find that like, was that just for me where that was like, the more difficult thing to figure out? Or do you think that most people kind of like have a special weight put on that? I think it's whatever your primary relationship is. So like if you don't have a significant other, all of your attachment stuff is going to go onto your best friend. Or if you don't have a best friend,

all your attachment stuff is going to go on to your best friend. stuff is going to go on to your sister or your parents or whoever is your number one person. Like you could see people that have a really are in a romantic relationship, but they talk to some other person more often or they're more even attached to a different person, whether it's a sibling or a parent. And then that's the one that causes more of the angst. So I think it could be anyone, whoever you're, you know, projecting all of your attachment stuff onto, which is mostly going to be your romantic partner, but I think it could be anyone. Depending upon your own personal, probably like, like you said, like situation and or

and or probably like what triggers you or like what like. It could be a neighbor if that neighbor is like triggering, you know, like some people will be like hyper focused on some other person in their life that's driving them nuts for some reason. Like you said, they're like triggering something. You know, so it could be anyone that's just triggering you for some reason. Let's get into, I guess, our very first episode. If you guys want to send in your question of something that's really bothering you in your everyday life,

you can email us at oversharing at betches.com. And guys, if email isn't your thing and you'd prefer to leave us a voice message, which we also equally love, and you get a little bit more of tone of voice, which I think is pretty cool. You can call in, leave us a voicemail with your question or comment at 646363-6294. That's 646363-6294. All right. It's time for today's overshare. What's our topic for today?

Today we are talking about friendship and how friendships evolve and sort of like the pain of like, I guess, potentially losing an adolescent friendship as you get older or reevaluating your friendships as you get older. Do you have a lot of patients do deal with that a lot? Yeah, I think everyone has there's such a wide, a very, a very. range, I think, of some people have like that super close click thing that never goes away and they never branch out and they, you know. Describing me?

Yes. In a rude way. No, some people have that thing and some people kind of bounce around. And so there's different issues depending on, you know, how you kind of handle your friendships and going from high school through college. But I think we've, I've had a lot of these, you know, friendships. that feel like they're super strong and then everyone kind of moves to a different place. But yeah, I think it's hard to figure out it's not like a romantic relationship where it's

your primary thing and you're putting all your energy into it. It's kind of hard to figure out like how much energy am I putting into this thing that feels difficult? Like when it's difficult, a lot of times you have to weigh like, do I want to have this conversation and open up this whole dialogue or is this just kind of? So yeah, I think that's something that I talk to a lot of people about is how. how much effort and energy and communication to put into friendships when, you know, you have, say, 10 really good friends and one of them seems off.

Well, that's the thing. Do you dig in or do you let it go? I find myself, I'm much more able to like accept my friends for who they are rather than a romantic partner where it's like, it feels kind of like, oh, I only get one. So I have to fix this part of them that annoys me. Whereas with a friend, it's like, okay, if I have a friend that I feel like, like, you know what I mean, it talks too much or is like, is very clingy. Like I can like manage that.

It's not like they have a lot of other friends. They can put that on too. Or if they're bothering me, I can kind of just take a break and come back to them. Or, you know, I better, I have friends who are more fun for like going out together. And then I have friends for deeper conversations. So I feel like for me personally, I like the idea that you don't have to fix everything. think. But I have had friendship breakups, which is another part of this email. So I guess let's, let's get into the email because I think it's, I'm sure there's tons of people out there who have had a

similar situation with a lifelong friend. All right. Let's do it. Okay, I have a friend problem for you guys. I'm in my late 20s. And for the past few years, I've been struggling to keep in touch with my best friend. Let's call her Michelle. We've been friends from childhood all through high school. And thanks to friends and sex in the city, I had it in my head that we'd stay close well into adulthood and even our whole lives. So I was disappointed when I sensed our friendship fizzling. That's our model for for how friendship should look is like friends where you just sit at the coffee shop all day. And live right across the hall from everybody. Yeah, it's fun, but it's not reality. Yeah, exactly. I attributed this to the fact that Michelle moved abroad after college. She's not on social media and

she's just in general, a reserve person. We met up a handful of times as adults and it was always fun, laughing like old times. We kept in touch mainly through occasional emails, always initiated by me, that usually got a response several days later that didn't really further the conversation. I went back and forth between should I just take the hint and let this friendship go, or should I say how I really feel? Feeling inspired one day recently to live life with no regrets and knowing that she'd move back home, I decided to send one last email and ask her what's up. See screenshots. Okay. So let's read the screenshots and then we can finish her email to really ask, see what her questions are. So summarized context, she and this friend are

childhood friends, she feels like she initiates contact a lot and the friend is like not super responsive. She's sensing like she's withdrawing a bit. So she, the listener writes this email to her friend. So I'll be the listener and you can be the friend that's dumping her. Okay. Okay. Okay. So the subject line is Hi, friend. Hi, I've been meaning to say this for a while, but I regret that we've drifted apart over the past few years, and I've missed having you in my life. I feel that I had stated this to you before, but maybe I wasn't that clear. I have also known for my mom that you've been back in the area for quite some time now, and I was surprised you didn't reach out. I don't know if this drifting apart was intentional on your side, but if not, and you're still around, would you like to

plan a meetup sometime soon? Or if it was intentional, I'm sorry for whatever may have pushed you way. I hope that's not the case, but I can't help but wonder. Hey, thanks so much for your kind message and thinking of me. I suppose that on my end, it felt like a gradual drifting away over time. I also truly cherish all the beautiful experiences we've had together and you hold such a special place in my heart too. At the same time, I also do have to acknowledge the fact that in the past you had a way of interacting with me that often made me feel that you were putting me down or criticizing me or others. I always perceived it as completely unintentional on your part, it was something that slowly distanced me from you nonetheless.

To be honest, that all happened so long ago, and I'm sure you've changed so much that I'm not sure it's particularly constructive for me to share these feelings with you at this point. But your message is very sincere, and it deserves a sincere and honest response. I really apologize for not being more transparent earlier on, as I can see that my silence has caused you harm. I suppose I thought that saying nothing negative to you would have been the kindest thing to do, but I can see that I was wrong and I'm so sorry for you. for that. I guess I'm so focused on other things these days that I'm not sure about meeting up sometime soon. But who knows what the future holds and maybe our past will come back to meet again. Always wishing you the very best. This is funny because it's almost like, and I'll read her response to her friend after that, but it kind of feels like it's almost too formal where it sounds

like she's like, you know what I mean? I love it. I think it's great communication. Like maybe if they would have done this four years ago, they would still be friends. Totally. I could see you drafting this like as a therapist. Like this is like very clean cut. But there's also almost like a coldness to it in the way that it just has no like, like, it seems like you could write it to any. Do you know what I mean? There doesn't feel like, it doesn't feel like it almost feels like constructed and doesn't have any sort of like colloquial. Like it's almost very formal. You don't I mean? I think the friend is over it. And she's she's kind of. put it, she's, she's come to terms with the ending a long time ago. So I think what you're sensing is just like a lack of sadness or like emotion or genuine like feeling about it. Yeah. It's very, it's almost too mature. But like it's be more angry. Right. Or just I mean, I don't know about this. Right. It's like I cherish our friend. You know what I mean? Like it's, it almost seems like a Bridgeton type like old timey like thing. But it's not, I mean, it is very well thought out.

So I think I would appreciate that about it. I see what you're saying. Like it feels like I want you to care more. Right. Like if your husband wrote this to you, you'd be like, okay, mature, but like where is the like passion about like the meaning? Like it almost shows that there's,

it doesn't have much meaning for her. Yes. To me. Like she's no. And that's almost why she can look at it so objectively and say the right thing and do the right thing because she's not, she clearly is not emotionally invested in this at all. Yeah.

I hear that too. And that would be the painful part of the email, although she says all the right things, like in the right way that you should say them. Right. I guess that almost makes it worse probably in some ways. Right. You do what I mean? Like if your husband calmly broke up with you, you'd be like, said all the right things, made it very mature, validated your feelings. But they didn't cry or show any emotion. You'd be like, that would almost be worse than them saying something a little bit like gut punchy that felt like, I don't know, they were moved or hurt by it. Right. Like they say, the opposite of love is in hate. It's indifference. Indifference, totally. Okay. So then she writes back, hey, well, that stinks to hear, but I appreciate your honesty. While I would prefer to say this in person, I will just take this as an opportunity to say, I'm truly sorry for the hurtful things I said and did in the past. Of course, it was unintentional. I considered you my best friend, but I know I had a mean sense of humor and lacked the self-awareness to correct myself at the time. I regret that it's taken this long to apologize, and I regret that that version of me is what you remember. me as. At the same time, I think it's incredibly cruel to still hold judgment for what someone was like as a teenager, especially if it was, as you say, perceived as unintentional. And also especially as I reached out to you multiple times throughout the past few years in a way that was nothing but friendly. I would have preferred the transparency over sparing my feelings. I was hurt when my efforts of reaching out over the years were met with no reciprocation, but I kept in touch on the

off chance you were just the type of person who struggled to stay connected. I often thought I should just take the hint, but I guess I thought we were close enough friends that you would tell me if something was bothering you. I see now I was wrong and then my efforts meant little to you. It seems that there has been a lot of hurt on both sides, but I appreciate knowing your true opinion of me and I wish you well. Okay, so at least you have a little more emotion there, I guess, although she seems, she seems like both like hurt. And I don't know if it, I wouldn't use the term incredibly cruel. I think that almost like, That was her anger coming out, I think.

Right. That was like her way of saying, I'm really sad and hurt and angry. I would say that minimizes the definition of incredibly cruel. I think that like this seems kind of natural. But I can see how in the moment... Well, I think her... The thing that made her really angry was her friend's just refusal to even give her another chance. That part, I could see why that made her feel really hurt.

Like she didn't... You know, her saying no to the get-together, I think was the harshest part. Totally. Well, yeah, let me finish... Let's finish the email. and then I can also give more personal context, too, for my thoughts on this. Okay. Yeah, sure.

She goes, for context, we were extremely close friends. Our moms are friends to this day. We'd hang out all the time, and our conversations were always deeper than my other friends. I want to say for the record that I fully admit to having a mean sense of humor as a high schooler, but it was never Regina George type of mean girl shit. I never stole Michelle's boyfriend or told the whole school her secrets or anything crazy, but I would say snarky things from time to time. I'll also admit I was a bit of a bragger.

Is that how he's just pronounced? Is that word braggart? I think so. I was wondering the same thing, but yeah. Right. Being a straight A student and varsity athlete when none of my friends were those things, and high school can be a competitive place. I can safely say that I mellowed out in college and left my mean ways behind. Also, for the record, I'm on good terms with all our friends from high school. While she has lost touch with everyone from what I hear, I've kept in touch with my college friends and I've been in a relationship for the past 12 years. I didn't feel the need to point this all out to Michelle, but I do want to show you guys. I'm not

a monster. Anyway, I guess I just want to hear your thoughts. The experience with Michelle had me questioning our whole friendship. Like, were we even that close of friends, as I remember? I even mused aloud to my boyfriend one day that it made me feel like I wasn't worthy of friendship. So I was really damaged by the whole experience. Was I wrong to assume your high school friends would be your adult friends? Should I have taken the hint and just stop reaching out to Michelle? Is this a case where if she wanted to, she would applies? I know it just sounds like high school friendship, but in a lot of ways this was more painful than a breakup. Thanks for listening. Friendship questioning, Fetch. So I've written something to someone who is reaching out to me like this. So I do have experience

in that. Oh, you were on the other end. You were on the one receiving the Our Friendship is Fizzling email. No, I've sent our friendship as in response to someone being like, you don't seem as interested in our friendship anymore. So I guess empathize more with a friend than this person, but I have empathy for the listener because it, it does, it is a rejection. All rejections, I think, are painful, right? Yeah, I think for sure. I guess there is maybe some space for introspection here because, I mean, I guess she said that she's been, she's in, on good terms with all her friends from high school. But if she was not her best self in high school and that's what they knew her as, then it's hard to kind of, for them to say, you know, they've been distant this whole entire time. You weren't that nice to me back then.

I have a lot going on in my life. I'm not going to kind of rekindle this thing that never felt that great, at least to her in the first place. And when we have friends in high school, it's more about like who's around and who we're friends with and it doesn't see, she's not going to, I could see, And she also apologizes for not telling her the whole time that this bothered her. Yes. Which I can see why that would be annoying. But it's also kind of like sometimes you people grow up and they change and they evaluate their life and they want different friends in their life.

Or they don't feel like someone's a personality match, the same personality match for them as they were when they were in high school. And I think she's, I understand her being like we just naturally drifted apart. And it wasn't like even if she didn't do that stuff, let's say, you could say, like we just evolved, our personalities evolved and it just didn't feel like a friendship match. Like I didn't feel like the best part of me was maybe she felt like good parts of her were brought her out around her friend, but maybe her friend was like, this just doesn't feel like that much of a connection to me. Like I don't, you know. Yeah. I think I think the friend on the

other end probably didn't enjoy the friendship as much as she thought she did at the time because from her message, it just sounds like she really, you know, was kind of her. hurt by some things that she said and never expressed them. She probably should have, as she mentioned, but I think the friend was sort of like, look, I'm going to, this doesn't feel good. I'm going to cut and run. There's no reason for me to stick this out. Like we said in the beginning, she took the path of like, I have some other friends. I'm abroad. I'm doing other things. Do I lean into this thing that doesn't feel good and try to fix it? And I think the friend was like, I'm out. I'm not really going to do this. It's not worth it. It's not worth the energy. But if you're a best friend, it's nice to

say, you know, she should have communicated, I think. Right. Well, maybe it was her best friend, but she wasn't her best friend. Right. Also another thing that can happen. Like, you can see, she was like, these are deeper conversations than I've had with anyone else, but your friend probably had deeper conversations with much more people around her, if that was her personality type.

And maybe she was like, leaning, wants to lean into more of that side of her than the side that maybe you brought out, which was kind of like the snarkier, funnier, but like, just not the. same kind of vibe. It sounds like the friend was probably would come home from their hangouts and maybe be upset or sad or say, oh, she's so annoying. Like, you know, like I don't, I think there was some like, I've seen those personality dynamics. I'm sure you have two where there's like best friends, but one is a little bit more like one's kind of like the butt of the joke or like one's a little bit more like the alpha and the other one's like. Yes. Sidekick.

The sidekick. So I think the friend was kind of like the sidekick that sometimes got the, you know, the drippings of her funniness that was funny, but maybe it was, you know, funny at the expense of people. And I think she just probably got to the point where she maybe, you know, and in high school, you're so young. Like you develop so much, especially going abroad in college and meeting people from another country where you're kind of like, I don't need this identity as like, you know, I want to change who I am. And it's, I feel so personal, but I actually, I don't really feel.

feel like it's it's if she really looked at it it's really not that personal it's like she in in high school probably trying to figure out who she is right gets older and naturally you know drifts apart from her like you said it's almost her entire high school friend she's not friends with anyone that she was friends with in high school it's more about her like trying to find herself and you're just kind of like maybe you thought you were closer with her so it hurts you but i really don't it doesn't feel to me it's not that personal like even if you didn't say those things maybe she would just feel like, okay, we're not like a huge personality match. And like in high school, we were both kind of there.

But since then, we've grown up and met more people. And some people like prefer to meet new people. And some people like me are more comfortable with people they already know. Right. I guess her question is, was it wrong to assume your high school friends would be your adult friends? I guess the assumption may be wrong. I think it's more like on a case by case basis. Like it's wrong to assume any group will be like.

like evolving in the same way. But if you really felt like you had like a really close friendship, I can see why you'd be heard by that. But it's also, it's not like they had been adult friends for that long. Like in, it's, it would be one thing to me if at 50 years old, your friends since you were 16 said like, I never really felt like a friendship connection. Right. But they're in their 20s.

Do you know what I mean? That's sort of like when you're going, it's not like she pretended to be friends with you all throughout your 20s. And then now you're realizing she. didn't like you the whole time. Like she was friends with you. Well, you guys haven't been close, it sounds like, for a long time. And to me, it's like it would be hurtful, but not as hurtful as if I felt like I had a strong

adult friendship. Totally. Yeah. I think she probably sounds like she was making this passive aggressively clear since they graduated high school or whenever she, after she went abroad. She was making it clear that she wasn't interested in continuing a best friendship. But I think for the, for the listener, when you ask, is it wrong to assume I'll be friends with my high school friends for life? If you're kind of a mean girl in high school and that's not who you are

anymore, then you're going to be a different person and you're either asking you're, you know, you're not the same person. So I think it might be hard to have those same friends if you're kind of changing who you are. The thing that will keep you together, what I think keeps a lot of those high school friendships together. And if you are changing, which everyone changes from high school, is just the memories and the jokes and the spending every single day together and making fun of teachers together and having all those, you know, fun high school memories where you're literally together all day and all night, which is not something, especially if you go to different colleges or whatever that

you're going to have after that. It really makes friendships so special when you spend all that time together. but that doesn't mean that your personalities are going to continue to match. And sometimes it can feel like that's the only thing holding you together, like the fact that we went through all this stuff. And again, I think if both people are willing, you can have a sort of like semi-distant friendship

that like is just based on those memories or you get together with a group and you all just kind of like remember or send each other pictures from like a time that was, but maybe it's not as close. Or maybe there's one person or two people within that group that you do feel closer with. But I think that you made a great point.

It's like if your personality in high school is very different than your personality now, this person doesn't even really know you. So they're not even really rejecting you based on who you are now. They're rejecting you based on a former self that she's admitting, you know, was different. And it's almost like, you know what I mean? Like maybe if she did know you,

she would know the current version of you, she would want to be closer with you. But she's kind of like, what's the point of re-getting to know this person? Right, right. Right, right. And I think, and I get the listeners end of it is like, look, I'm not saying that maybe we need to be best friends, but we can hang out and get together for a coffee and reminisce and laugh and have a little bit of fun and do it again in a year or two or whenever. But it sounds like I could, the hardest part of this email, like I said is the friend basically saying like, that's it for now. We're done. Like I have really, if I see around, I see around. So I think that the listener is sort of like, look, we had this conversation. We cleared the air. Let's just like be. cool and see each other when we see each other. So yeah, it's a tough situation. I love this topic, you know, like I have, um, as we all do, I mean, I'm obviously 10 years older than you and I've been, you know, hanging on to my college friendships and even sort of by a thread to my high school

friendships because there's so much going on. And when you really think about it, it's, it's sad to let something, to have something feel like it's just really gone, you know, um, Right. It feels like very final. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, as someone who's like, again, felt like they have grown apart from people or have had to send a message like this to someone, it's kind of like in my mind, it was like, do you want me to hang out with you because I feel like I should or to not rock the boat? Or would you rather me tell you how I really feel? and then we're both living in reality

as opposed to like living in a world where I'm just doing something because I feel bad not saying no to brunch or I feel bad not which to me like in my mind again I think everyone thinks about it from their own individual perspective some people might be like yeah I'd rather you just have brunch with me and like not say anything

and like do that forever but in my mind it's like that would be a night like that's my worst nightmare is that someone is hanging out with me that doesn't want to out of obligation and they don't really want to be there. Like, to me, that's a life built on a fantasy. I agree. I mean, I think maybe it's almost like this context of the ex

that wants to get the person back. And they're like, if I just can get you in front of me and we can just spend time together again, and you'll see how funny I am and how gorgeous I look, then maybe you'll want me back. So maybe there's a part of her that's like, okay, we had this conversation. Let's just hang.

And maybe we can fix this thing. Totally. Because I think for the friend, and I can see there might be a little. anxiety in like, you know, getting together again after it's been so long and I feel this distance and we're not really that it's almost like that avoidant thing of like, I don't know how this is going to go. So I just don't want to do it at all. Totally. Yeah, I do think the friend might have that. And she's just kind of like, it's not worth it to me to like feel like anxiously and have

to meet up. I have to pump myself up for this coffee that I don't feel obligated to do it anyway. And I've been that friend, so I can understand why, like, she was like, I could just get lunch with, like, next time I'm in town, I could text her or I could just be like, eh, I'd rather just tell her the truth and then not have to do that every, like, year or two years that I happen to be in town and then, like, have to just tell her I'm busy again and, like, not giving someone an answer who's clearly, like, this email that she sent her is clearly asking for the truth. Right. And I think that's when you say something. It's like kind of cruel. It would be kind of cruel to just, like, out of nowhere. send this to someone. Right. But if she's asking, like, why don't you want to hang out with me when you're in town? She's giving her the answer. And I think that's sort of like, it sucks, but that's like the best you can do. But it's like, if someone breaks up with you, they're not evil. They're just like telling you the truth about how they feel and like, what's the alternative that they just continue to be around you because they feel bad telling you how they feel? Right. Totally. And it's not to cause any regret or guilt, I guess. Maybe it's a lesson she can share

with her kids down the line, but like the way that you treat someone in high school, if it's not, you know, if you're not being kind and you're not understanding that nobody likes to be the butt of a joke, there's ramifications. And I think this girl's discovered shortly afterwards, like that friendship did feel good and just the reminiscing is not worth, you know, the way that this made me feel. And I think she wasn't probably aware of it. Totally. Or didn't care or just was wrapped up in her world of being a straight, you know, straight A student. And yeah. But on the other hand, I'm also kind of like, okay, maybe that was her personality. I'm sure there's little parts of it that still exist within her of like being this kind of person.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But maybe this person's just not a friendship match for you. Like maybe you would get along better with other people. And that's sort of like another thing that's like you could change. We could always change. But you could also lean into people who maybe appreciate that side of you a little bit more. There might be other people who are like, oh, yeah, she's really funny. Or like, I love that she's like.

so like snarky or something like that. Yeah, the humor is worth whatever, or maybe they're a little less sensitive about whatever it is that's going on. I mean, it's got to be hard to have a best friend that's like the star of the school. Like regardless, unless you're also that way, it's very competitive in high school with friendship. So I'm sure even just that without anything probably left her feeling a little insecure and vulnerable and not wanting snarky comments about things, you know.

Totally. And I would like lean into people. who you feel like you do have a good connection with. Like it's, I mean, it's okay to feel like shitty after getting this email. I could see that. But I think she's being a little hard on the girl who wrote it. I mean, look, I think they had great communication.

I wish they would have done it. I guess it's a lesson for everybody out there. Another topic is like, should I write the email? Should I express myself? And I think the answer to that is yes, do it sooner than later because this is a lesson and what happens if you wait too long, you know? know, then the other person's like out by that time. And also maybe like if you don't, if she didn't want to know,

don't ask the question. Right. Like, yeah, I think she wanted to know. No, I think she wanted to know. She just didn't like the answer. And I could tell, you know, she put it out there in the initial thing of like, I don't think this is what it is, but I think she kind of knew that there was something that upset the friend, you know, and she probably didn't want to confront it. Well, she was hoping that it was just that she was busy. It's like when you text. a guy and you're like, or when a guy's not texting, you're like, he's probably just busy. It's probably not that he doesn't like me. But so then you ask, sooner you're asked, the sooner you know it's that he's just not interested in dating you. And that's the reason why most people

don't ask because they don't want to know the answer. Right. What you think is like better, but actually just prolongs things and makes things more painful, the longer you wait. Now we want to talk about an interesting article that I stumbled upon by Esther Perel and Mary Alice Miller. It's called. the myth of unconditional love in romantic relationships, which I thought was very interesting. I'm a huge follower of Esther Perel. I think that's how you pronounce her last name. I think it might be Peral. You know, obviously, I'm not that. Obviously, I'm not that big of a...

It's just, it's a hard name to pronounce. I thought it was Esther, but then I've heard it on, like, someone say it live as Estere. Oh, interesting. So I'm not even really sure, but big fan, regardless of how you say or spell her name. So she has a blog. and she wrote about the myth of unconditional love and romantic relationships, but I thought was really interesting because it was about like kind of the dichotomy of like how you see your partner.

And I think there's this idea or this myth in dating that you need to find someone who like never annoys you or that you like love unconditionally quote unquote. But she's saying that like unconditional love is not like a healthy thing. Do you agree with that? Yeah. I mean I really like this article too. I think some of it,

in some ways is sort of intuitive. Like, I don't know that there's that many people out there that feel like they should never, like if you ask 100 people that in a relationship, if their partner pisses them off, makes them angry, if there's things that they do that they don't like. I think most of them would say yes. So I don't think it's, you know, I don't agree with the day-to-day idea that most people feel like they have to love all aspects of their partner. But I do think that there's a part.

this romanticized thing about unconditional love that like no matter what this person does that I have to feel all like if I if I for a moment lose that romantic feeling of wanting to hug and kiss and love you and be all over you or have sex with you or you know right if I lose that that it means that there's like something wrong with the relationship or that it's not right or I chose the wrong person because I don't feel that way all the time. So I think it's not so much that people don't admit that they feel upset, but when that happens and maybe happens too frequently or happens with too strong of a reaction, then I do think it makes people doubt the relationship or feel like she's saying, I have to just deny that I feel that way because this is the person that I chose

and they're my soulmate and everything about them has to be beautiful. Right. Well, what do you think she, what is she? I was a little confused. use what she meant by like if you have to resolve this, then it's like a toxic or abusive relationship. Like in, because like you're taught that you should be resolving any issues. But is, is that mean like when someone's forcing you to like accept them like the idea of like you must accept me as I am? Right. In order. Like if you loved me, you would accept me exactly as I am. Right. Well, I think that comes probably from the person that's like, you know, well, I hurt you, but this is me.

You married me. You knew what you signed up for. Like that's the type of thing that I think is really harmful. Like, well, you knew what you signed up for when you married me or whatever. And that's the kind of thing that I think is really harmful instead of saying. Like,

I know that this thing upsets you or hurts you. Let's talk about it. Or, you know, I love you so much that I'm going to try to change versus the idea of, I love you so much and you should love me so much that you don't, you're not going to ask me to change or you're not going to, you know. Right. It's interesting that she also talks about this in relation to a friendship breakup, which we just kind of talk.

Because basically she's saying, like, relationship ambivalence is like when you, like, when you feel both like really positively and really negatively sometimes about the same person. And there's three ways to deal with that. And one way is to just like leave and be like, there's too many ups and downs. And I'm just creating a boundary of like, I'm not interested. Which is kind of like the first emailer did. Yes.

That friend did that. She was like, I'm out. This is, I don't like, there's ambivalence. I'm leaving. Exactly. The second option that she writes about is like staying and accepting your partner unconditionally, not asking them to change, not even, it sounds like the idea is like you're just not even going to communicate about it.

You're just going to turn back to your vow. I promise, you know, to love you forever and take you as you are. And so I'm going to remain, you know, uncomfortable and unsatisfied and not request. any care or love or change on your end. That's what I got from this in terms of number two. Like the difference between number two and three are just more in terms of your perspective on the negative feelings. Right.

But like what is, is it, is there any change in action though? But I mean, again, three is basically like what she calls holding the ambivalence, which is where you're kind of like radically accepting that. this person is not ideal and that there will be ups and downs and that I can generally, what I like at the end, she writes, like, it's closer to Terry Reel's description of self-esteem, our ability to see ourselves as flawed and still hold ourselves in high regard. And can you do that for relationships? So I guess the difference would be, the third one is more like, I still see your flaws,

but I still like you. Right. Well, so just to clarify for listeners, she talks about the ambival. I just did summarize. She talks about the ambivalence in relationships and how having ambivalence in a relationship is uncomfortable. Like I love you, but like you're so annoying or I really don't want to be around you right now or you're having some negative feeling. And then she says there's three ways you can deal with it. One is leave. Two is stay, even though it doesn't feel right. And three is hold the ambivalence. So her suggestion is three. And I love that because I think it applies

for everything in life where when you're feeling uncomfortable, whether you're feeling anxious about flying or you're feeling anxious about applying for a new job or whatever, our tendency as humans, I think, is to do something about it. I feel uncomfortable. I need to take some action, whether it's emotional action where I'm like framing this in a way that makes me feel better or it's behavioral action, like I'm going to break up with this person or I'm not going to get on the plane. And so I think the difference between two and three is three is just like, I'm just going to sit here. I'm going to allow this feeling to be here. I'm going to just realize that my whole entire existence is just waves of emotion that come and go.

And if you, you know, like we talked about before, if you take action in the moment where it feels super intense, then you're making a decision about the relationship based on that wave of. emotion rather than letting it pass through, holding the ambivalence, and seeing this as, okay, sometimes I love my partner and I feel super close to them and I feel like I want to be near them every second and I'm so enthralled by them. And sometimes I think that they are the worst person in the world. And that's just a fleeting momentary feeling and realizing it as such, I think is what she's saying. And I love that part of it.

Well, I guess my question is, like, how do you determine, like, because I assume they're all right in different circumstances, or at least one in three are right in different circumstances. Because there are times you should leave a friendship or a relationship, probably not the one with your kids. But like, do you know what I mean? Like, there are times when it's better to exit the relationship. So how do you decide if, like, the ups and downs are like just part of their package or like if you should move on and, and I'm. I'm sure you have a lot of people who come to you. They're like thinking about a breakup or they're like thinking about how to deal with their, their mother that they have a tough relationship with. Like, and, you know, I've,

I've had that too with people where it's like, should I try to make this work in a way where I just accept them for who they are and then, like, create my own boundaries, positive and negatively. That's much harder to do with like a partner, obviously than like a family member that doesn't live with you or a friend that's around. Like,

how do you make that decision of which category you should put someone in? Right. Right, totally. And again, I think the best rule of thumb is to not be making that decision or thinking about how to conceptualize a relationship when you're activated, like emotionally activated or you're extremely angry in that moment. I think once you come down from that, that's when you can start to evaluate how you feel about it. And then obviously, like, communication is the first thing. You can try to communicate how you feel it. Once you're calm, and you've given it a day to settle in and you can think about it more rationally,

communicate and see if there's any behavior change that makes you feel better about it. But I think the biggest problem is that people, and I can tell the difference. When someone comes into a therapy session, and this is interesting as a therapist, when somebody comes in and they've just had the argument with the person, their mindset is like, what am I going to do? I have to break up. How can I live like this? I can't live like this anymore.

It's all these feelings of like I have to do something about the situation. Immediately. And then sometimes I'll come back and I like check. You know, I see the person the next week and I'll bring it up and they're like, wait, what are you what are you talking about? That's so funny. Yeah. Oh, that thing that we spent like the whole time talking about last time like it's out of their brain a week later because they've just allowed it to settle a little bit. Yeah.

I've definitely had that too where I'm like so excited to like talking about. I'm like, can't wait for my therapy appointment on Friday because, like, I just had this annoying fight with Mike. And then it's Friday and I'm like, I don't even really feel like talking about that anymore. Right. Right. People kind of over it. Right. So it is funny that like, your emotions are so like that. Well, that's why I have this theory of like, you know, everyone's like, don't go to bed angry. Sometimes I'm like, maybe you should go to bed angry and see how you feel in the morning. Honestly, I agree. I don't like that. I don't agree with that advice. I don't agree with that everything needs to be hashed out till three in the morning until you're both exhausted,

then you wake up exhausted, then you're still cranky because there really isn't any major mental, like I think people try to intellectualize these problems so much and like come to a reasonable like, you know, conclusion in their intellectual brain when it's just kind of like, while they're wired on top of it, when most of these things, I think for the most part, I mean, there are things that are repeating issues, patterns that you need to explore. but sometimes it's just let's just drop it, sleep, wake up and see if we still need to talk about this in the morning. And sometimes you're kind of like, all right, there's nothing left to say here. You feel one way. I feel the other. And let's just, and it's not even like sometimes, you know,

you really need to dig in, but sometimes it really does just go away. Right. Sometimes it's like just a a thing that you can say, okay, I was more upset about that because of like me than this other person. And it's maybe they're not like the bat. Like I think I don't know if I talked about it with you. But like I had this thing with Mike when we were in Florida. Right. We were in Miami and he like forgot or we were getting ice cream. And I was like, oh, they have like the salted caramel.

Like you're going to love that. Because I know he likes that. And I'm like, what am I going to get? And I had a whole like, you have benefits episode. This was the trap. And he's like, I don't know. Like what are you going to get? I'm like, you don't know.

like what flavor ice cream I like. Like we've been together over four years. We've gotten ice cream like several times like many times. And like I got like so mad about this thing. It was like the kind of thing where I was like in my brain I'm fighting with myself. I'm like do I let it go? Or I was like no, I'm actually really annoyed. And then I kind of ruined the rest of the night just being like irritated about it.

Where I kind of think that like, and I think I talked about this with the honeymoon where like sometimes if you just kind of like give yourself a minute to come down and think about it. It's like, is it more about, like, is this epic of a deal? Is it more about me and my insecurities and my projections than the actual thing going on here? Like, what is the evidence of the situation? I do like the idea of like, yeah, maybe I could have just gone to sleep and, or like, taken a walk and come back, came back and been like, that's, okay, like, that's a little, I'm a little, I'd prefer you know, like, I just said calmly like, it hurt my feelings that you didn't know that and been like more removed from it right and look maybe there is a deeper maybe there

is a deeper issue if this type of thing keeps coming up in different ways like maybe there's a deeper issue that does need to be explored like you feel like he's not paying enough attention to you or he's not you know curious enough about you like maybe there is a deeper issue but you could stay up all night arguing about the ice cream which would just be a total waste of everybody's time so I do think it's good to give it time to rest where you can be introspective and come back a few hours later and kind of be like, look, it's not about the ice cream or whatever. Or A, it may just go away and you may not care anymore. Or B, you could come back and talk about what there really is to talk about.

But I think sometimes with couples, especially certain dynamics of couples, once the fight starts, that fight or flight mode is engaged and you're in fight mode. And so all you care about is like winning this argument. Yeah. That you're not like, it's like you have tunnel. vision to where you can't stop. It's not really about the situation even. Right. It's just about like making them feel bad. And then I think that's also when you, the fight goes nowhere because it becomes less about how you feel and more about the kind of person the other person is or the

person who started attacking the person and then they feel defensive, which never resolves anything because now they're not even like trying to see where you're coming from. They're just defending themselves against like, well, that's not true that I don't care about you at all because I didn't know the flavor or something. Do you know what I mean? And then they're just, and then they start listing things that they do that show that they do care. And then you're like, okay, well, like, now I have to win a different way. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I agree. I think that part that you said where you're like, you know, now this is sort of an indicator of who this person is. So that type of thinking is that mental process that I think ends up creating more harm than good. Like that that mental

process of you saying you are this type of person. That's your way of taking the ambivalence and intellectualizing it and making a broad, it's your way of doing something about the ambivalence and saying now I'm going to categorize you as this type of person and now I'm going to second guess do I want to spend the rest of my life with this type of person. Totally. Now you're down a rabbit hole. Yeah, that's such a great point. And like I actually think, I mean, we've talked about this before, I think, but like, those buzzwords and dating that you hear of like, you know, like, they're just avoidant or they're like this person or this, like the psychological terms that I think get misused or used to label people and then they kind of make you the victim

and the other person has like a problem, like a psychological problem. And so I think that when they're, sometimes they're like really helpful for analyzing a situation, but I think sometimes they do just like pigeonhole people into an entire archetype that is. isn't necessarily even who they are. Or if they have some elements of it, that's not like, it's not like black or white like that. Right. I think it allows people to feel a little bit more in control. Like, I know who you are.

I've put you in this box. And now I can make a decision because I have this ambivalence. I think it really, that's what I loved about the article was like the, or my take on it is like, when you're ambivalent in a relationship, there's like this, this urge to do something. And the doing something, like you said, oh, this person is just a narcissist or he's just avoidant or that's your way of doing something about it. I'm going to put him in a box or her. I'm going to, you know, and then use that mental decision making to make a decision about perhaps a behavioral decision about the relationship I'm going to stay or I'm going to go. When really what she's saying here is just sit with it.

I feel ambivalent. It feels uncomfortable. I feel it in my, I feel I have butterflies in my stomach. I feel nauseous. I feel like I'm going to cry. Whatever it is that you're actually feeling, just feel that. Let that kind of flow through without giving into that urge of like I have to do something about this like scream at him or start a fight or label him or whatever. And I think that's a great thing. And she kind of alludes to this at the end to do with yourself because I think people also can feel, like she said, like you can feel sort of ambivalent about yourself and your own worth. And, you know, let's say you like, You blow an interview or something. You know what I mean? And then you're like beating yourself up of like, I'm a person who's like lazy or I'm a person who's unprepared or I'm a person who's never going to succeed.

But the idea of self-esteem is like, okay, I can have made a mistake or I could be flawed in a way, but I still think I'm great or I still think I deserve the job or I still think, which if you can bring that empathy, I think most people try to be okay or pretty good at holding themselves in high esteem despite their own flaws. Like if you could do that for someone else, that's probably the best way to look at any relationship. Right. And I couldn't agree more with that concept of like even just recognizing that you're doing it.

Like when you come out of the interview and it was horrible and you blew it, just recognizing like I have an urge to do something right now. What I want to do is tell myself, you're never going to make this. You're never going to do this. Change careers. give up. That's your desire to do something to soothe that uncomfortable feeling. That's where the urge comes from.

But just being aware of it and saying like, I'm not going to judge anything right now. I'm not going to do anything right now. I'm just going to sit here and cry because that interview didn't go well and I don't feel good about it. And that's it. And I'm going to cry about it and be upset about it or talk about it or whatever you want to do. but avoiding or at least being aware of the urge to try to make a mental decision in that moment because that leads you to say, okay, I give up. Now I'm not applying for any jobs. And or like it's also good to feed to like what you said about feeling it because I used to be

someone who would just like if I felt that weird uncomfortable thing. And sometimes I still do this. I'll just kind of like push it out of my brain and pretend it's not there and continue about my day. Like I'm not upset like telling yourself like you're not upset about it, which is the way I used to do things, which I think is almost equally bad. as that because then you don't actually process anything and then you don't really like learn from it. And for me, that was really big with dating where it was like if, you know, if I had a bad negative dating interaction, sometimes I would become, I would either become one of those two bad extremes where I'd be like extremely emotional about it and like berate myself or I would be like,

I'm not even going to like think about this or process it because it's, I don't want to go there and I'd rather just have a nice day. I crying to me crying is like God's gift to humans to allow us to have like a physical expression of emotion it's like the mind body coming together in that moment where you're like able to have a physical expression of emotion that doesn't hurt anybody you're not punching anything you're not throwing anything but you're just giving yourself a chance to feel your feelings in your body and notice everything that's going on in your your body and just cry without having to like do something about it or put it in a box or think

about it. You could just like feel your feelings. So I mean, look, obviously it's not, you're not going to do it in the middle of a meeting, but find a space, go in your car, do what you have to do, feel your feelings, come back. Okay. You know, I've, I've felt how that feels and I don't have to decide anything on it right now, but I've kind of allowed myself to hold those feelings. I like that. I'm going to try to cry more. I don't really cry very much. I really wanted to cry on my wedding day. It, like, didn't happen for me.

I really wanted to. It was beautiful. I cried. Thank you. Oh, now I feel worse. I think there's so, I think for you, I could tell what it probably is. There was, and I felt similar on my wedding day, I think, because of some of the family dynamics that make things difficult.

It's like, you're almost in, like, go mode where you're not, like, I think that's a good point. We can maybe save that for another. episode but like maybe you weren't really allowing yourself to feel your feelings because you were in your head about like the whole day working out the whole day working out and what was happening and you know all the planning and so you weren't like allowing your I don't know I'm not I wasn't no I think that's a great it's a great point where it's like it's hard to like for me to go from like one thing to the other in terms of like emotion like I have to be like an emotion like only day or like a

logistics only day. It's an interesting thing to go from like as we're walking down the aisle to go from like there's all this planning and prep and hair and makeup and you're standing where's my good day. Okay, now Jordana walk and all of a sudden you're supposed to like shut all that out and like in this moment with your partner alone like that's a pretty tall order I think to ask. That's a good point. Yeah.

It's almost like I was more emotional on our like courthouse wedding day because we had to get married legally where you're like, I don't think about anything, but this is the only thing going on today. I don't care of it. Look, I don't care. I like I, um, you know, there's no rain to deal with. It's like a whole other, that's a good point. Maybe Betches brides can talk about that, like, how all the planning and prep and all the external stuff that doesn't matter, perhaps takes away from your ability to like just be in that moment, you know. Right. Well, that's why you need to hire a really good planner, I guess. But everyone's going to get stressed out anyway. That's true. It doesn't matter. But yeah, let's let's, I think that's a very interesting article. I'd love the idea of us talking about that kind of thing. If you guys listeners have an interesting article or an interesting book that you feel like would make for a really good discussion, please send it to us. We like to break things down for you. So that's oversharing at betches.com. Oversharing at betches.com. And if you guys would prefer to leave us a voicemail message, which I'm really excited about, you can give us a call at 646363-6294. And if you don't have a message, which I'm really excited about, you can give us a call at 646363-6294. And if you don't have a

pen to write that down. It will be in the description of this episode. And again, feel free to call. Leave us a voicemail. Ask about your problems. Give us a comment about the show. We love to hear from you. Let's put some games. Our game is called triggered. And basically, we're going to take your emails about any time you felt insulted or wronged. And I'm going to rank your triggers based on how offensive I think they would be because obviously I'm the end all be all on what should be triggering and not. I'm just kidding. But we're going to rank them and then discuss them. So, You want to read the first one? Yeah, I'll read the first one.

My siblings went out to dinner without me. For context, I'm the third oldest of four siblings who all live within 30 minutes of each other, and I'm the only one that's single. One of them recently let slip that the three of them and their spouses all went out for a nice meal without inviting me. I feel super left out by this, and it's bringing up a lot of childhood resentment from feeling ignored. How triggered am I entitled to feel?

Let's think. This is on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being. like really messed up very obviously, I think, and one being like kind of harmless and you're overreacting. Right. I would give it a four. Yeah. Because I think, I mean, she didn't really mention that this is what would have triggered me in the situation was like, oh, I'm single and like, now I'm not invited because like I don't have a boyfriend. Now I feel even worse about being single and I'm left out. So it's like, oh, no one, because I don't have a boyfriend, people don't want to hang out with me. And maybe if I already feel like my siblings didn't want to hang out with me,

this is now like, it's hitting two different triggers for me of like I feel left out and I feel like my singleness is exacerbated. Yes. Yes. But on the other hand, I also can understand from the siblings perspective, it's like, one, you don't have to invite everyone everywhere all the time. You can have a hang out with someone that's not like, everyone doesn't always have to be invited to everything. That's one. And two, it's like, maybe they don't even know. Maybe they don't even know. that you would want to be invited to that. Maybe they're like, oh, why would she want to come to like a dinner with three couples? Like, maybe she'd feel bad.

I've occasionally, like, when I've thought about inviting certain people to certain things, I'm like, would they actually want to go to this or would they feel weird about it? Right. Yeah. So I agree. I think it's a whole thing about like couples going out and like, do we invite the person that is single? And I think in some ways, and siblings is like a very,

very specific group. So I think it stings a little bit more. But it could be a friend group, right? Where there's like some couples in the friend group and there's some single people in the friend group or especially if there's one single person in the friend group. So I could see why people would be really hurt being excluded if they're the one single person in a particular group. If it's like one person not being invited, but it's also sort of a lose lose. Like if you don't invite them because they're single, then they feel left out because they didn't get invited. and if you do invite them, then they show up and then they feel like a third wheel.

Right. Then they feel like weird that they're the only single person. But it's like, do you have to also like when you invite this person, do you have to preface it with like, do you want to come to dinner with me and like these three other couples? Because then it's, do you what I mean? Like first of all, you're like, oh, they might want this information before they decide to come. But on the other hand, it's like, if I give them this information, am I like saying it being like, you probably won't want to come? Right. Right. I honestly, I honestly, I think.

think I would rate this a little bit higher than a four because it was all the siblings except for her. So it's like sort of like just excluding one person. If it was like two of the siblings and two not or something like that, it would feel better. Or if there's like a group of five girlfriends that are like, that's my core group of girls. Right. Four of them go out and one is not invited. Like I could see it like you don't have to invite everybody all the time, but you also don't have to just leave one person I think it would have been like a six or a seven if it was like the siblings, just the siblings, no partners, not her. Okay.

Interesting. You know what I mean? Because then it's like, oh, very clear. Like we're all completely on equal footing here. Like there's no reason to believe that I wouldn't have just as much fun as the next person. But then it's like what you're saying, which is like, it just highlights like and I wasn't invited because I'm single. I'm like, ostracized from this dinner.

You know, it just like makes it feel even worse. I would have said, I would have invited her. And I could see there's a hesitation because especially if she's like very sensitive about it, you feel like you're like poking the bear or she might be triggered or maybe there were instances where they did that and she felt like everybody was being PDA and it made me so, I don't know what the backstory is. But I think you have to give the person an option. Like these are the people that are going to be there.

You know that they're all couples. I don't have to say that. But like this is the list of people that are coming to dinner. We'd love it if you wanted to join. and then she can say, nah, I think I'm going to sit this one out. Do you think she should proactively say, like, hey, I'm not sure if you didn't invite me to this dinner. You mentioned that you went to dinner and like, I'm not sure if you didn't invite me because I'm single or you thought I wouldn't be interested. But like just so you know, like I would love to,

I think also if you tell the person like, it doesn't bother me that I'm like the only that you guys are in relationships and I'm not like, I would still love to come to these things. And I felt like a little left out when you didn't invite me. But just so you know, like it's totally fine. I could see why you might think that. But just so you know, like, like next time I would love to come. So like let me know. I love that. I love that response.

I think it's great. She has to be honest with herself, though, about whether she really does want to be at that dinner or not. Right. Or if she just wants to be invited. Yes. That's also a thing. Sometimes you just want to be invited.

You actually don't really want to go. Right. So I think if she's genuinely able to say, I would have really liked to be there. I realize like that self-awareness. And I like that concept too of like just making everybody feel. more comfortable by calling the elephant out in the room. Like, I realize I'm the only single one. Let's just talk about that.

And here's how we're going to handle that going forward, because I'm sure this isn't the only time that there's going to be things like that. So let's just like she can own her singleness and like be able to be a little vulnerable or say, I really don't mind. I love hanging out with you guys. And next time like you said, please invite me. Or yeah,

I do feel a little weird about it, but I still like the invite. If I'm not feeling great about my singledom that day, I may choose not to come, but if I'm feeling confident and I just want to be out, then maybe I'll choose to go. Yeah. I feel like the other person, as long as you're not, like, blaming them or, like, making them feel really bad about it, like, they're, they'd probably be happy to invite you. I do find that when you yell at someone for not inviting you, that usually makes them want to invite you. Right. You know what I mean? Right. Just saying it, you know, like I always say, it's not easy to

hug a porcupine. So just saying, like, it hurt my feelings. It's like a nice way to have someone say, oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I didn't. My intention was not to hurt your feelings. Right. Instead of like, you're an asshole. Right. How's much harder to do that. Exactly. It's much harder to be kind when someone's yelling at you. Yeah. All right. Let's do another one. I hate it when people say you're being too sensitive. I get this from my family a lot. I try to own my own feelings and I met with you're being too sensitive. It drives me crazy. What do you give it? I mean, I personally don't really deal with no one ever accuses me of being too sensitive. So I don't really relate to it. You can't

I think it's like, I think it's like a three because I don't relate to it all, but I could see maybe. Well, it's the equivalent. If someone said to you, you're not sensitive enough or you're being a little cold, how would that make? What would you give that? That I would be like, okay, I think I'm self aware enough to know that sometimes I can be a little cold. And so like, I would almost appreciate that.

Like maybe you're not. Maybe I wouldn't agree. But I think I would be like, okay, like, if that's the thing that's being activated here, like my lack of sensitivity, like, that's fine. but it's funny just because like no one would ever say that to me. So I would probably be more likely to be the one saying that to someone. So maybe that's why I would rank it low. Right.

You're trying to justify. You probably have said that to someone. I definitely have. What do you think? What was your number? Did you have an actual number? I think like I would give it like a three. It's also like a general comment.

It's not like. Yes. You know what I mean? It's very general. I might give it like a little bit higher than that. But I do think it's it's a moment to become. self-aware. That's why I like this game. You call it triggered. Like what is your real trigger? Like maybe you are a little bit too sensitive. Like you said, if someone said, you're not sensitive enough, you might not be

offended because you'd kind of realize like, okay, maybe there's some truth there. Maybe this is a moment of like awareness for me to check myself. So I wouldn't give it a super high score. And I do think it could be a moment of awareness for her of like, you know, she wants to be able to share her feelings, which is important. But if several people are giving you the feeling, you the feeling, feedback of like you seem like you're frequently triggered by things that don't seem as important to other people. If there's multiple people saying that, that might be a moment to kind of be like, okay, maybe I don't need to express every like single time I feel hurt or like we talked

about earlier. Let the feeling like flow through a little bit. Let it pass for a second. And if you still want to talk about it and you might choose 80% of the things instead of 100% of the things. Right, because the thing with you're too sensitive that you'd want to avoid is that you don't want people to be like walking on eggshells around you to like be worried about it. Because that doesn't make you like a person that is like good to be around and that could become a self-fulfilling self-sabotage thing where people like then avoid being around you because they don't want to say anything that offends you. And like I'm always worried about like because I'm usually the one more triggered in my relationship issue.

Like I'm not really in any other relationships. But like with an actual relationship, sometimes like I'll take a comment and I'll. like blow it up in my mind to mean like something that it doesn't mean at all. And then the worst thing that I could hear someone say is like, I feel like I can't say anything around you. And then I'm like, oh, no, I've become like that person is like a big fear of mine. So I guess someone might say you're too sensitive in a romantic relationship. If Mike said to you, you're too sensitive, like if you were like, you know, you didn't notice that I got a haircut or something and like it really upset me. Yeah. He's like, you're being too sensitive. Well, yeah, that would probably annoy me. I would agree.

I would agree that would annoy me. But it would make me think about the issue. And like maybe I've turned this comment, which literally meant nothing to this person, into a fact about me, like a grand generalization about me. And I do think that's more on me than about them. Right.

Yeah, I would rank this on the lower. I mean, look, I get what I think the problem is she's trying to be vulnerable. And she's, and I think she sees part of her identity as like being able. to express herself or it's something that she feels proud about, but I guess maybe everything in moderation. All right, let's do one more. I met a guy at a bar this past weekend and we had a great time hanging out and flirting all night. At the end of the night, he didn't ask for my number, so I suggested we exchange info, but he said he really didn't think it was a good idea.

I've never been rejected like this. Is it weird that I can't stop thinking about it? What do you give that? I'd give this a five because I think this would be annoying. But to me, it's like there's so many reasons why someone wouldn't want to take your number, most of which are usually they have a girlfriend, but they like had fun flirting with someone. Right. I feel like that's. Yeah, especially I don't think it's a good idea I think is code for I have a girlfriend. Exactly. Because I think if a guy actually weren't interested, he would take your number and then just not text you. So the fact they wouldn't even take it and like save it in their phone is like I'm not even like giving myself the, like most people are cool with the option, even if they're not interested. Most emails that I've seen like on you up are like,

he took my number like why didn't he ever call me and it's like because he took it and then he thought about it and then he was like eh I'm not that if they won't even take the number to me that means like they don't want any evidence of this interaction yes brought into their real life right and he probably realizes that he was doing things his girlfriend would not have liked um I would actually maybe be flattered that he spent so much time with you while he had a girlfriend probably meant he was like really pretty into you it does sound like especially his term I don't think it's a good idea. But there is the chance that maybe he wasn't that into her.

And like that is offensive. That just feels bad. So I agree with your rating. But sometimes people are just not that into you. Yeah. And they just hurts and it stings. And I get it. But, and yeah, a waste of time.

Like it sounds like they spent the whole. Right. I would be like annoyed that I like invested this whole evening speaking to this person that like clearly is like either unavailable or not interested. I agree. If you look at the same situation as a flattering thing, you're like, okay, like, I clearly am entertaining enough for this person to spend the entire evening speaking to me. Right. And it makes, I hope that, you know, would make someone feel better. There is that aspect of like when someone's not interested making up 16 different reasons about everything other

than the fact that they're just not that into you. Right. Yeah. But in this case, I really do think that he probably was maybe in some way dating someone. But yeah, I agree with the Yeah, and that's the thing with meeting strangers and taking anything personally. We need strangers. Like, you have no idea what, like, what's in their head, even their set of circumstances are, like, could be a million different reasons why someone does or doesn't do anything. Right. Do you know what I mean?

It's like, oh, like, the cashier was rude to me. It's like, the cashier is probably just, like, rude, like, or, like, hates their job. Right. Having a bad day. Like, it's probably not, like, anything that you did. Not taking things personally in general as a rule. think is a great way to go through your life because it's mostly not about you. Although it would be bad for our game because it's all about being triggered.

But these were really fun, such a great fun first episode. It's only going to get better as we get more of your emails, more of your thoughts on ethical dilemmas, scenarios that you want us to rate for their triggering factors. The whole thing, let us know what you want to see. Oversharing at Betches.com. That's oversharing at Betches.com. Thank you so much for listening. the show, please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, rate, review, and subscribe to the show,

and you'll get it every week you'll get notified when there's a new episode out. And it's a great way to show your support for the show. And again, to let us know what you think. I can't wait for next week. It's so fun. Yeah, I'm psych. This was fun. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Pico and Rebecca Salis McHack. Editing by Missileo Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to oversharing at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches