Oversharing - The Psychology Of Money

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Today on Oversharing, Jordana and Dr. Naomi discuss the pitfalls of the “Frugalista” lifestyle, and why you need to learn to take the loss sometimes. Plus, they tap into the psychology of money with a story about chasing down a refund. Our Overshare email comes from a Betch trying to stay strictly professional. Is it okay to keep a work friendship from spilling over into real life? Today’s Betchicist goes out to a listener grappling with sharing her eggs… not the breakfast kind. Would you donate your eggs to your sister if they asked? Dr. Naomi writes an intention for a newly settled Texan who can’t take the heat. And we’re feeling triggered by hot mess therapists and dedicated dog moms. Tune in to find out what “active listening” means, and learn whether or not your own therapist is getting it right. Check out our latest promo codes here: https://betches.com/promos Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. How's it going?

I love your little cute little winter sweater. Oh, thank you. I bought this at the express clearance when I was in New York. Nice. $15. dollars frugalista it's so funny um i do the same thing whenever anyone compliments anything you say how cheap it is because it feels like you've won a little bit totally it's so true i was just talking with a patient about how like there's a lot of mental energy like especially around the black friday stuff

that goes into like am i getting the best bargain is this the right thing can there's like if you stop pause and like watch your mental dialogue you realize like there's a lot of energy going into like whether or not you know the the 20% off makes it worth it to buy this thing or should I wait or yeah I've gotten that I've gotten the lowest price it's less almost about the money and more about like you said like that feeling that you've won or that feeling that you know someone else is like a sucker and you got the best deal right maybe it's just for me Yeah, I was annoyed because I bought a Roomba finally on Black Friday. And then I was like trying to see.

It's so funny, I'm just realizing this right now. I was trying to like make myself feel good about how great it was that I got this Rumba on Black Friday. And I went to go look it up and see how much it was. And it was the same price like yesterday. Well, yeah, that's annoying. But then sometimes, you know, I kind of do that too where I just keep looking it up to see if price goes up to feel validated.

Yes. Even though, again, it's like you're spending the same amount. Yes. And then also, I mean, the whole thing about like psychology money, I think I need a lot of therapy on that too. Because I will spend, like I have a good example of this in the story is we rented a car when we were looking at houses originally. Like when we lived in the city, we were looking at houses.

We rented a car. And the woman at like the Hertz, sorry to call them out. Whatever. She was like, okay, the car you're getting is like halfway full. So just bring it back halfway full. So we were like, okay. So we did that. And we come back.

We bring it back the car. And then I see on the charges that she charged me for the gas for not being full. So I spent probably. And then I emailed them and they were like, they were like, we have no record of anyone telling you that that it was halfway full. So I probably spent like six hours total contacting people and writing angry letters and DMing them and finding all this stuff

and I'm like it was probably like $30. Yes. And at the end of the day I like threatened something and they, I was like probably threatened a lawsuit. Whatever. At the end of the day like they wound up waving it. But I was just and I kind of I felt good that it did

but I was also like how I probably just took off like a year and a half of my life. Yes. Yes. Like I knew I was right. So maybe that was like feeling me. Totally. But it was one of those things where I'm like, it's not even, it doesn't even become

about the thing because I'll probably spend more than that on therapy discussing. Yes. It's so true. It's like about justice, I guess. And, you know, not what. But sometimes if you can just like we're going to talk about take a pause when you're in that moment and just be like. I can take the L.

I can take it. I can take it. I'll be okay. I'm going to hang up this call and I'm going to go take a hot shower or go to the gym or do anything other than spending the time. But I get the urge. I really do. I get the urge when, you know, you feel like you've been wronged in that way. Right.

And then you become also, it also becomes another part where you're like, you've already put so much effort into it that you're kind of like. I can't stop now. Right. If I give up now. It's all for nothing. Well, you got the $30 back. Way to go. I did it.

I mean, that did feel pretty good at the end of the day. Yeah. Finally, we've gotten it. I don't know how many lives I've ruined people I got fired. But yeah, the whole, the whole like psychology around all that. Yeah, money and saving and how much, I think just being mindful of how much mental energy you're putting into like I went back on even if it was a minute to check and see oh to make myself feel better oh look now I paid $150 for the Roomba and now it's 250 yes I can feel so excited about that

but A it wasn't and B like for what right I mean that's the whole psychology of getting people to buy expensive anything right just to feel like you know I always think they do that like they They mark up the price before the sale so that they can put it on sale for the same price. A hundred percent. It is like they're just messing with our heads. Yeah, but it works. But I guess, I don't know. If you, to be above that, I guess you have to be like a monk.

Yes. Someone just needs no possessions or, and that's the other thing with like Black Friday stuff is it does feel like sometimes you're buying stuff just because it's on sale that you don't even want or need. and you're sort of like locked into this culture, just consumption. Totally. Totally, totally, totally. That's why we gave this advice a couple weeks ago, which is like, you know, take a picture of it, put it in your cart, and then take a break, walk away and see if you're, it's almost the same thing that I recommend for like emotional eating, you know,

like if you really want that, whatever it is, that cookie or the Oreos or whatever the thing is that you're trying to just take take a break step away go do something else and then if you come back and you still want it then great have it but if it's sort of this like I have an uncomfortable feeling in my body there's like an excitement or a lack of excitement or something physiologically that's making me crave this thing if I let that pass then I might come back and be like you know what I was fine without the rumba I vacuumed the floors right it wasn't a big deal I put on some music and I don't really need this thing, whatever it is. Yeah.

No, I totally agree. But then you get into the mindset of like, well, I don't really even need anything. Yeah. Go with that. You think? Yeah. What's the point of any of this? Let's like sell our homes and move to an island and just like live off the land.

That sounds good to me. Let's do it. Let's get into our first email. And if you have an email, you can email us at oversharing at betches.com or if you want to leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Check it out. And we love hearing the voicemails. It's fun to hear your notes. But also the voicemails have to be limited just so you guys know because I listen to a lot of these to three minutes. So if you go over three minutes, it'll cut you off and I won't hear the rest. And I won't choose the voicemail because I don't know the ending. So if you have a

voicemail, try to keep it to three minutes for the sake of the show as well, you know. I do love a lot of the nitty gritty details, but try to try to get it out quick. Yeah, three minute voicemail. I like, I really, I think they're great. So keep sending those in. But again, keep them tight-ish. Anyway, all right, I'll read the first overshare email. All right.

Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I have a question that I think you can help with. Recently, a new girl, let's call her Melissa, has started at my job who is the absolute sweetest. She's 23 and recently moved to my area with her boyfriend. I am a 29-year-old female and my boyfriend is 30 years old. Melissa has expressed that she and her boyfriend are looking to make new friends and has suggested going on a double date with me and my boyfriend. I like her a lot and I want to have a good working relationship and friendship with her, but I don't think I wanted to be anything more than that. My boyfriend and I both have families that live close and like to spend time together often

on top of close friends we enjoy getting together with at least once a week. Many of my friends are in the stage of getting married and I've been a little overwhelmed with how busy my personal life has been. I know this is a good problem to have and I'm not complaining about that, but I think I'm at capacity when it comes to my social life outside of work. I feel horrible thinking about having to dodge her invitations and I'm wondering if you can give me some advice on how to go about this without hurting her feelings. I want to continue our friendship and I don't want anything to be awkward, but I also don't want to feel pressure to hang out with her out of obligation. How do you go about staying friends with someone you don't want to spend time with outside of work. Thank you in advance

for your help and advice, a betch at friendship capacity. Yeah, I think I've been on the receiving end of this. Someone's lying out. Yeah, like people that I just get a vibe, you know, when I first moved to Texas, you know, I'm like putting out my vibe. Like, I'm looking for new friends. And I definitely get the vibe back sometimes from people that are like, I'm not really looking for more than acquaintance or chick like I don't want, I don't have the space in my life to make additional plans with you outside of this. And some people you do get that vibe like they're open to that and some people you don't. And it seems like according to this emailer, it definitely seems like it's not personal. Right. She says nothing negative about this person. She's like, I like her. She's very

sweet. She's whatever. It's just like, I'm just not looking for that. Totally. And that's how, that's how I've taken it when I've tried to put it out there subtly to someone of like, let's bring this out of the soccer game context or let's bring this out of the whatever context we're hanging out in. And I don't take it personally because I probably get there's a lot going on and I don't

think it's necessarily me. But I, how do you get rejected? I just, yeah, let me think. of how it has it's just sort of like a you know the typical like oh we should do something sometime and then it's just never followed up on you know or like uh i've sent a message of like oh we're out here if you guys want to join and it's like doesn't there's they're not like jumping at the chance to do the thing and then i only ask like once really i'm not like asking repeatedly and i think that perhaps that's the advice but i think that's a great point i think something

that she doesn't really talk about here that much, which is important, is their age gap. So she's 23. This person who's writing in is 29. And I do think there's like almost a direct correlation between the older you get and the less real interest, unless you're moving somewhere new like you are. Right.

New friends you're trying to make. Right. Like if you were in New York still, you might be the person being like, got enough plans, got my enormous family that like is annoying me. Like, I have, um, So I think that's a big part. At 23, you're like nothing but new friends. Yes, totally.

And I mean, at your age, like people have families. They have kids. They have like extracurriculars. I mean, I'm sure you talk about that all the time. So maybe there's, that's probably like a bigger part of this than she's even admitting. She probably has weddings that she's going to. Yeah, exactly. So I get it.

And I think she can do what people, you know, what people do, which is just like politely say no, like once or twice. And I'm assuming she'll get the hint. But the flip side is, and I just want to put this out there for like karma wise. And I always, you know, I'm talking about inclusivity. And it's, I think if she's having a bunch of people over or there's like a thing where there's like a party type situation or where it would be no skin off her back to like invite this girl and her boyfriend, I think that would be a nice kind thing to do. I think what she doesn't want to do is get in the routine of having to have like an additional plan just with her and the boyfriend. Right.

But like if they were having a friend's giving or something and she wanted to invite them over, if she's having a New Year's party or whatever, like invite them to that. That's no skin off her back. Maybe she'll make another friend that's not you that does want to hang out. So I think she could do a, you know, a nice good deed and maybe invite her when it's no problem but kind of set the precedent of like, we're not going to make plans just us alone and just kind of say no, it doesn't work for me enough times and then she'll probably realize. Is the idea to say no, it doesn't work for me without an explanation?

So that is greater like. Yeah, I mean, I guess you could just say no with no explanation possibly. Or I'm sure if she really is busy, she probably does have other plans, you know, like. Right. Or sometimes it's just like you don't have plans, but you like that you don't have plans because you have so many other plans. And I think that's fair to say because I think a lot of people can relate to that too. Right. Well, what if she's like, well, I'd love to set up a dinner.

When are you free? Right. Yeah. That one, that's tough. Give me some dates. Right. That is tough. And look, I think, you know, I honestly, I'd love to say, oh, communicate honestly and tell her the truth.

That's what I thought you were going to say. No, I don't, I mean, I really don't think that that's feasible. I think you could just do the thing that like, you know, I do with certain people. Right. You know, which is just like, yeah, well, let me check. Let me check. I'll get back to you. And then you just kind of like, oh, this month is like crazy.

Like, let's circle back after the new year. I think there's certain social etiquette where you got, you kind of get the hint after a while. But I would, you know, the other thing I would say, one is invite her if there's a big party or there's like something that, easy enough for you to throw her the invite. And two, maybe you can just like grab lunch with her during a work day just the two of you where it's not like we're not going to involve my boyfriend and my weekends and my after work time. But like, hey, I'm ordering some food.

Do you want anything? Or like, let's grab lunch. Like I think you can set the context. And I have friends like that too where there's like certain contexts where we know it's going to work well for both of us, but it's not going to be like Saturday night out to dinner. with our spouses. Yeah. Or it's like, let's get one drink after work.

Right. This is one of them where you have to play it especially swiftly because you work with them. Yes, for sure. And it seems like she likes their working relationship a lot. Yeah. I think there's ways to do the right thing, make her feel included, help her, right? It's like a mitzvah, go out, you know, bring her, you know, help her meet some friends. That's a nice thing to do, but it doesn't have to be double date with the spouses.

or whatever. And I think it's nice for people to know that, again, this is not personal. And there is like a certain, there is a certain skill. I don't know if most people have it or not of like reading signs and just kind of knowing inherently what the deal is. Yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

Like I've gotten that vibe from people where I'm like, you're not, you're not looking for new friends. And that's okay. I don't take that personally. Yeah. And I'm sure like, I mean, you're a therapist. you probably have it a more keen sense of understanding interpersonal dynamics. But yeah, there's definitely,

yeah, it's a good skill to hone. Yeah, it's interestingly enough, I think sometimes it comes from having like highly emotional parents. Okay. So when you have, you know, parents that are, you know, very reactive, you start to become really in tune with other people's, the nuances of facial. expressions. The nuances without even being conscious of like is someone literally leaning out or leaning in. Like you start to really tune in the same way, you know, if you've been bitten by a dog,

you're going to be really keenly aware of like the position of a dog's tail or the position of his ears or because you've been bitten before. So I do think people that tend to come from more highly reactive parents are more in tune. Right. That's a good point. And on the flip side, maybe if your emotions are like overly catered to, like, let's say you're an only child or your parents are like kind of obsessed with you and your emotions are like extremely catered to, you might be less aware of the signs of other people's withdrawal. Right. Right. Yes. I would agree with that. It's interesting. Yeah. It is. And we don't even, it's so funny if, and if you think about it, there's so many little subconscious. messages that we give. If you just sit and people watch one day or watch like people interacting, whether it's a couple or two friends or people on a date, it's even kind of fascinating if you're ever out at like a date spot and you and Mike don't really have anything to talk about that night.

Just if you look around and you're just like watching the little nuances of communication of just like where your hands are, what is your torso leaning forward or leaning back eye contact. are you looking around? Those are huge messages that we don't pay enough attention to. Like we say, okay, he said this or she said that, but there's so much more to it than that. It's a great point. I like that. It's interesting.

Yeah. All right. New hobby or new dinner conversation. Yeah, totally. A couple next, especially when you're seated like, you know, in those crowded restaurants, like right on top of them. Yes. You can literally like hear the whole conversation.

The best is if they're like having a fight. Yeah. Just casually observing your whole relationship. I was once next to a couple on a flight, like the three of us in a row and they were having a fight. And that was like, I was trying so hard to like lean in hear everything while also pretending that I was not listening to anything. On a flight, you're like literally on top of someone.

They've got to know that you're listening at that point. Yeah. Right. Were you in the middle? Better. No. I think I had the window and they had the aisle middle, but like that was better than anything that could have been on the TV. Totally. Fascinating. Let's do a betcha cyst. Do you want to read it?

All right. I will read this. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. Thank you so much for this amazing podcast. I'm writing in with a question that combines fertility issues and sister issues. So I hope you can help. My question involves my older sister's recent request to conceive a child with my frozen eggs. For some background, I'm in my mid-30s and my sister's in her early 40s. My sister was uncertain about having children, but then met her partner at 40 and has since been trying to conceive. She has now gone through a year of failed IVF cycles and has decided to try a different path. I've always known I've wanted kids and I froze my eggs a couple of years ago out of concern. My partner wasn't on my timeline and that even if I conceived a first child, I may need the frozen eggs to have a second in the future.

I froze 20 eggs, which I was told was enough to have a good chance of having one child from them. My partner did eventually get there and I'm now pregnant, having conceived without having to use my frozen eggs. Hooray! My sister recently approached me asking how I would feel about giving her my frozen eggs to use with her partner's sperm. Her partner was never certain he wanted kids and has reservations about most fertility interventions from IVF to egg donation, but has agreed to this considering her desire to move

forward. There are other complexities, including a lingering dynamic from childhood in which I'm the golden child and she's the scapegoat. This has caused a triangle of tension between the two of us and our borderline mother in many ways, but most recently in the context of these fertility issues and my pregnancy. I want to help her, but I also want to make sure we think this through very carefully. What do you think is the right next step in making this decision? Thank you, as always for your wisdom, a batch with eggs to spare. This is an interesting one, for sure. My thought on this one is she didn't really say whether she wants to do this or not.

Right. So I think that's the first question to ask herself. Right. Whether she's willing or wants to do it. That's probably the first question. Let's say she would hypothetically be interested in doing it. I think for anyone you have any kind of issues with at all, contract. contract before you do it, specific as you can get.

Because if you already have fights with someone and issues with them and all this stuff, like doing this kind of thing, I can imagine, will in some way, shape, or form come back to haunt you or there will be disagreements about the way things are done or how they're done. So I think that's the kind of thing you would need to be extremely clear about before anyone agreed to anything. So it feels weird because it's your family and it's your sister. but I would look at this almost as like a pre-nup for these eggs. Right. Interesting. And be like, let's have these fights before they come up.

Let's like actually really hash through anything that might come up and agree to it while we're both in this like pleasant state. And if we can't get through that, then we probably shouldn't do this at all. Yes. Well, what I like about that idea is the contract makes it feel a little cold and contractual. But I think in creating the contract, that's where you can have the more like emotional, heartwarming, softer conversations. So I think the contract is a good, like one way to do that would be like, okay, let's go

to therapy together. I don't think it needs to be like years of therapy. Obviously, this is a timely issue. But I think they can do like a few sessions. But almost your suggestion is sort of like maybe instead of therapy, let's like just sit down and write up this contract, which is like a framework for the therapy. Like, how are you going to feel if this happens? How will we handle this situation? And really kind of breaking it down so that, because the advice that I was going to give is that you need to, like you said, make sure that you can

have these conversations without it being contentious or awkward or uncomfortable or avoiding. So writing up a contract together is a great way to kind of start up those conversations. And I think you have to really be open to there's going to, it's not, it's probably not going to be the cut and dry that it would be if it was a random anonymous egg donor. Like there's going to be some ambiguity, not necessarily like you're saying in terms of like decisions and actions and legal and whatever, but emotional ambiguity. for this child who's going to have to eventually accept that there's a differing structure to the family than what the traditional family, which is, this is my aunt and this is my mother.

And this is, there, there is, there's going to be some blurred boundaries in there, which I think you have to be willing to work through. And I think it'll be like, in some ways, less weird because it'll probably, if they're sisters, they'll probably have like a genetic or link to, you know, their aunt, who's technically who is actually their mother and all that stuff. But that's a good point. That's a lot of stuff to work through. But I was thinking even like, even besides the kid, obviously their own issues, just between the two of them, I feel like if you don't resolve any past stuff and then you further entangle yourself with someone, that's usually kind of a recipe for disaster. Right. Right. If they have

difficulty communicating if they're feeling. But look, I do think there is a chance that this could be healing in some way. You know, the golden child sister is now giving something very meaningful and wonderful to the scapegoat sister. And maybe that can be healing for them, but I think they have to be able to communicate through it. I was actually doing some research on this and there's a few longitudinal studies, which are like that follow people. There's small samples, but they follow people over the course until these children are like nine or 10 years old. And there's a high level of satisfaction in terms of sisters giving eggs to one another. Oh, there's a study on that. Yeah, well, they followed. It wasn't a huge sample. I think there

were two studies that I saw. There might be more than that. But the ones that I looked at were small sample sizes. So it was maybe like 10 sisters or nine groups of sisters. So you can look up some of those studies and see what they say. But there was a pretty high level of overall satisfaction with the process. But I do think you have to really be open to communicating and to having. It's almost like a different structure of a family than what, like as if you had two dads or two moms or you were adopted by your grandmother or, you know, whatever it is.

There's a different structure where you're going to have to accept that, it's not going to just be the same as if it was an anonymous donor, which can be a beautiful, wonderful thing. It can like bring in a whole extended family kind of thing. Yeah. So what do you say in terms of her next step? What do you think that? Do you think the next step is therapy? I mean, I think they could, I think the next step would be to try to say like, okay, let's sit down and talk about it and to sit down and just share concerns. So have a set time like out, like a long time, not like, oh, we're meeting for a 10 minute coffee, but have like some, a real talk where she could say, look, let's just sit down and discuss what you, what you're

feeling, what I'm feeling, what my reservations are, what your reservations are and kind of lay it all on the table emotionally, right? And then I think the next step after that would be maybe like, okay, let's see if we can iron out the details of a contract. But I think just expressing your, you know, your fears, maybe your excitement or like, you know, it would feel really fun to kind of feel like my niece is my daughter, has a lot of my genetics or whatever, and also I'm concerned because of this, that and the other. And see how that conversation goes. And if that conversation goes well, then I think you can go to the next step. If that conversation turns into an argument, then it's probably a sign that this is going to be more difficult. Well, that's what I'm saying. The more

the more you can find out if the preliminary talks lead to fighting. Yes. Before you actually do the thing. Yes. I think like great test. Yes. And just being really honest with your reservations. And I do think the husband needs to be part of this too.

I was going to say that. Yeah. Both. Both husbands. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I agree. So they need to be involved in these conversations and their feelings need to be taken into

account. So I think the first step is maybe just a meeting of the sisters. If that goes well, maybe you bring in the husbands. And if that goes well, then maybe, like you said, can start on some kind of a contract to make sure that everything is agreed upon. And I think it could be really fun and exciting. And I think it's a cool idea to use your family if you can navigate that relationship. Good luck. Great question. let's do some intentions. I'll read them. Dear Jordana and Dr. Naomi, thank you both for your thoughtful responses and insights each week to listen to emails. This podcast has become one of my favorites that I make time to listen to. I love the healthy sister dynamic you two have, and I wish that I had that with my

own sister, but that's an email for another day. I'm hoping you can help me set an intention for a situation I'm having. My husband and I got married this summer and moved from Wyoming to Texas to be close to my family. I've been struggling to readjust to the south. It's weather, the above, the lack of landscape and outdoor summer activities due to the heat. No offense, Dr. Naomi. While my husband is thriving, he loves the heat, he gets more time at home with his job, he enjoys living in a bigger city, and his seasonal depression is not bringing him down. I feel guilty that I find myself sad and sometimes break down crying because I miss my old life in Wyoming. Although I only lived there for two years, it holds a lot of special memories for me

since I met my husband there. I also felt more healthy and active there and going on hikes in the warm weather and snow shoeing in the winter. I also had a job that I loved going to every day, and I just felt a sense of security in the small town we lived in. Although I love our new home, we have great neighbors. I have coworkers at my new job who want to hang out and get to know me, and I'm enjoying more time with my family. I still find myself comparing my new life to my old life. Is this a normal adjustment period? I've thought that maybe getting out in nature somehow might help or trying to go more regularly to the gym. I still feel like I haven't gotten a routine down since our My husband has never lived this far south and everything is new for him, whereas I've lived here

my whole life and nothing really is new or exciting about being back. He tries to understand why I'm missing Wyoming, but I hate how my complaining sometimes makes him think I completely regret this move. Any advice to help with the situation or an intention to help me stop the comparisons and better cope with this issue is greatly appreciated. Sincerely, mover's remorse. Yeah, this is a great question. We've helped people in the past, like, try to figure out if they should,

move or how to know when you should move, but now here's the question like I've moved. Right. Don't like it. Yeah. You know, I think the situation that she's in is actually ripe for personal growth for many reasons. Oh, good. We all.

Congratulations. You're in a, uh, we all love a situation where we can make ourselves extremely uncomfortable in the name of personal growth. No, but I, you know, it's interesting. because I live in Texas, I moved here too. So personally, I can relate. When we first moved here, we were deciding between like Naples, Florida and here. So when it comes to being outdoors and being able to be in nature and having like beautiful landscape,

and I highly value that also. And I highly value the ability to be outside and be in nature. So I'm speaking from personal experience when I've said that I've had to lean into living in a place that doesn't have, you know, all, you know, relatively a ton of natural beauty compared to a beach town or a mountain town or, you know, a place that has those types of scenic views. So I get it. When we were deciding, I was kind of preferred Florida. And that's where I sort of wanted to end up. And we ended up here for cost of living reasons, just because it was cheaper. And then I had to really, like, lean in those first couple summers where it's like 100 degrees

every day. And, you know, I don't have, I'm not watching the sunset over the ocean on a Friday night at the end of the work week or whatever the things are that you're craving. But I do think you can break it down like we always talk about into those little moments of like, okay, I'm walking. It's hot. now what right does my mind go to that place where I'm like this was stupid I wish I was here I wish I could be in a different place why did I do this now there's no scenery and it's hot and I have to

deal with my sister like obviously I think that being close to family might not be as great all the time right like it sounds like she has a difficult relationship there so but and I've been in that situation where I have to stop and pause it's like almost There's a sensation happening in my body and then my brain is taking that and making a whole judgment around it and making me think that I made the wrong choice. Instead of just saying, okay, there is a bead of sweat dripping down my back. That automatically makes me feel like it's too hot. I'm uncomfortable. Now I'm sweating.

Now I have to wash my hair. That's really annoying. I didn't want to do whatever your mind does with that sensation of that beat of sweat dripping down your back and takes it. turns it into a whole negative catastrophe. Catastrophe. And so there's just be like, okay, I'm hot. Breathe. Relax.

I'm not going to die. It's actually good to sweat. It's cleansing my system. So I think if she can, whatever those moments are where she's uncomfortable where it's like she's walking and there's not a nice scenic view that she's looking at in the wintertime. or it's in the summertime and it's hot, like just kind of relaxing and not letting her mind and her judgment of the whole process take over and kind of like focus on what's actually

happening right now, which is really not that bad. You're just hot. I think if you can, it's kind of like you always say like where you put your attention is kind of how you're going to feel, like your thoughts are your reality. Yes. So if she can do that, that would be great. And I also think like she said she moved closer to be closer to family. I assume maybe that's because they want kids and like they think that will be helpful.

So maybe they just haven't really seen like the rewards of right happen yet. So they're only really getting they're not like there yet. Right. Sometimes it feels like if you don't immediately feel like you love something. I think people feel like this way too and they like switch jobs or something like that where like they don't immediately feel like the comfort of liking the new place. your instinct is to fix it. Yes.

To get out of there or to make another plan. 100%. And it really starts in your body. Your body is uncomfortable for some reason. And then your mind says, what can we do to fix it? We can move. We shouldn't have moved. Let's have regrets.

Let's have worries. Let's make plans. Let's strategize. Let's, you know, complain to the husband. But I think on the flip side, It's also okay to feel uncomfortable or to feel disappointed or, and it doesn't mean you made the wrong choice. It just means that today at 1232, you feel a little disappointed or you feel a little warm and

uncomfortable or you're craving a scenic vacation or whatever. It's just that moment on that day that you feel that way when you take it and turn it into I need to do something about it now or a whole judgment, that's when I think it starts to really erode at your general level of happiness. So where do you think the level is between like sort of enjoying the hand you were dealt and making changes to make your life as happy as you think it will be in a certain way? Yeah, obviously that's a tough question. I think it has to do with are you trying this stuff first? Right? Because the truth is, if you can do this, you have a superpower.

And your superpower is that you can be happy anywhere. Right, with anything. Which is nice. It's really, that is kind of, we could keep changing our environment to make us happy. If we, if I move to a bigger house, if I get a pool, if I take a vacation, if I, then I'll be happy. And you can keep doing that. And yes, you can create a happier moment or like a more joyous feeling for a moment

with those things. But your superpower is learning to kind of relax into whatever is happening around you. So I think trying this first. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Yeah, play devil's advocate. What if you're in like a bad relationship? Yeah. Right.

Where's the line of like, because I think people probably tell themselves that in bad relationships all the time. That's what I say in them. It's just a moment. It's going to be better tomorrow. There's other good things. Like if I focus on the good things, then the good things will be there. And I agree with your advice about.

like trying that first. And I don't think this is the same thing as a bad relationship. I think a bad relationship with anyone has a bigger impact on your mental well-being than the location that you're in. Right. I'm sure certain exceptions. But I don't know. I just always like wonder that.

Like with the, totally. You know, when should you accept the surroundings that you have or the life that you have versus making a big change that's scary to. Right. Because there is something to be said for like making a big, you know, saying, I don't, I don't like something about this, I'd like to change it. So I do think that, you know, obviously you have to

weigh your situation. So if you're in a bad, like being in a situation where being abused or mistreated or whether it's a work situation where you have a boss that's abusive or not treating you well or a friendship where someone's like being abusive, I think those are ones where you're sort of like this is not just like I have a beat of sweat dripping down my back or like I'd like a little more space in my home to put my things or that's kind of like really detrimental to your psyche. So that those things are, I think, more worthy of making big changes versus like I'm a little bit like physically uncomfortable in some way that I think is worth. That's why I talk about doing like cold plunges to kind of desensitize yourself to some

of these physical discomfort that feels shocking or, you know. So I do think there's a difference there, but I think if you try to lean in and you try to kind of say, okay, I'm going to see if I can wrap my head around this place. I'm going to see if I can lean in and accept. And that still doesn't work. I always like the idea of kind of keeping a calendar. And whenever on that day you feel like there's something that's happened on that day that feels like this is really bad.

Like this is really a thing that's happening that feels like unacceptable. to me in my life. And how many days of the week or the month are you having this thing happen that feels unacceptable? And to me, what comes to mind most of the time is like people. Right. Like day ruining things. Right.

People. Yes. Versus like I'm too hot or like I wish the scenery was more beautiful or whatever it is. And I think if it's a situation where you wish the scenery was more beautiful or you don't like the weather and that's doable for you in your. your life and that's something that's like a change that's reasonable to make, you'll just make it without all the hemming and hawing and whatever. The hemming and hawing probably comes from where you're sort of like, there is a bigger

sacrifice here, whether it's financial or we are going to have to raise our kids without our family present or whatever else comes along. So I think sometimes the overthinking, judging and all of that is just like a futile attempt that doing something when you're feeling uncomfortable. I think that's a great distinction. I don't know if that answers the question exactly, but I do think if it's reasonable for you to move to, I don't know,

whatever the best, you know, California or someplace that has beautiful weather and beautiful scenery and whatever. If that's like reasonable for you, you'll kind of find your way there without needing to be uncomfortable or, you know,

figure out if you can be uncomfortable, which I think that's just good practice whenever today for all the listeners that are out there there's going to be something today that's going to make you uncomfortable something you're going to long for more something that's going to bring you seeking and when you get there welcome it because this this is your training it's like going to the gym for your soul in that moment I like that so do you have an intention does she have you have an intention yes I do I have an intention which I wrote, when I'm uncomfortable, pause, relax, and allow without judgment. So I think if she could take the judgment of the decision out of it, she'll be able to just be like,

okay, this is where I am right now. And also like allowing herself to be, to take it moment to moment rather than globalizing the whole situation. So the next thing I wrote that she can think about is the next pleasant moment will arise more quickly when I feel instead of think. So if she's just feeling the feeling of being hot or feeling the feeling of walking around her neighborhood and it doesn't look nice or, you know, if she can just absorb it with her senses instead of using her mind to create a story around it, that's when you know, it starts to feel like a big deal.

Look, let's do some triggers. All right. Let's go to move right along. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I recently rekindled my wellness journey after a six-year hiatus. During my college days, I had a brief stint with therapy driven by desperation. However, I could only attend a few sessions due to financial constraints as a student teacher. Now I've landed a new job that values mental health and offers excellent benefits.

acting on my primary doctor's recommendation, I scheduled an appointment with a local counseling office. My first visit was the intake session and the counselor informed me that I'd be seeing the only therapist at the office who accepted company insurance. My initial meeting with the counselor left me uncertain, considering it had been so long since my last therapy experience. The session took place via live video and I made sure to log in extra early thanks to my anxiety. About five minutes past the scheduled time, my counselor, finally joined the call. When she appeared on the screen, she seemed very casual, almost as if she were on FaceTime from her couch or chair. She asked standard introductory questions like what

brings me to therapy and what are your goals during the conversation she shared that she had recently been in the ICU due to neglecting her health, working over 80 hours a week and not eating properly. This hospitalization had just concluded over the weekend and our appointment was on that following Tuesday. I felt sympathy for her thinking maybe she was gradually returning to work. As we talked, her phone moved around the room from her hands to propped against something so she could read my paperwork on her laptop and even to the side of her chair where I found myself staring at the ceiling during the conversation.

At one point, she got up to get a yogurt and ate it on camera while continuing to talk to me. After finishing the yogurt, she began putting on her shoes and rummaging through her purse. This is when my frustration started to build, but I didn't express it because I wasn't sure what to expect. Eventually, she left the room, which appeared to be her office and the counseling center, informing me that she had a doctor's appointment, but decided to keep our session since we were just getting to know each other. She started driving while still on the video call with me and the call dropped. She then called me back from what seemed like a personal number and suggested we finished the session via FaceTime. Is this legal?

Throughout this chaotic session, she continued to ask me about the trauma I've experienced. experience and how it affects me today, which were already triggering topics. Should I be triggered by this experience? It's been two weeks since the appointment and I still can't shake off how it went. Repeatedly recounting my trauma is taking a toll on me and I'm growing disheartened by the process. Should I rehash my trauma at each initial therapy session or just get to know the therapist? Any advice for a girl who's seeking a professional therapist but also trying to protect

her peace would be incredible. Thank you. Yeah, this seems wild. Ooi, oie, this is very triggering. Very triggering. Yeah. She's asking about her trauma while she's eating a yogurt and rummaging through her purse. This just sounds insane.

And like on the go. It's yeah. It's weird to like it's, I feel like the therapist is treating the conversation like a conversation with a friend. Yes. We're like you're busy, but you want even even that would be like kind of annoying if my friend was like walking around while asking me about something very traumatic that happened to me. Yes. This one's getting paid to do this.

So it feels like especially crazy. Yeah. I mean, honestly, this is unacceptable. This is, I mean, if I have to, if I'm on a session and I have to like get up to, because the dog is barking or something, like, I apologize profusely. I do what I have to do. I acknowledge that it was a break in our rapport and concentration and come back. and address it. This is, I mean, even one of these things would be aggravating, but all of them together

staring at the seal, like, look, the therapist needs a break. Yeah. She just came out of the hospital. She needs a therapist. Yes. The therapist needs a therapist. I feel bad for her. I don't know what her financial situation is that she feels like she needs to just continue to keep pushing and seeing patients after coming out of the ICU and running to a doctor's point. This is not, she's not, The therapist isn't okay. I feel bad for her, but the patient should not have to suffer. This is not very triggering. I agree with that.

I would give this like seven-ish because it's clearly about the therapist. Yeah, I mean, I would give it a seven, but because she's asking her about her trauma while she's doing it. Right. I'm bumping it up to like a nine. Okay. I don't think you can talk to someone about trauma. The first thing you learn on the go. When you become a therapist is how to, it's, I remember feeling like this is so stupid and obvious.

It was like about active listening, which is like, and they would, like we had a test or something on like active listening, which is like making eye contact, not doing other things while you're listening. Like I've even had professors who would say that like I usually have a drink, a tea, a coffee, something. that I'm water that even just taking a drink of water is like not active listening. So this is like therapy one on one that you have to be like making eye contact, leaning in, doing nothing else but listening. So especially when someone's talking about trauma, this is, I don't know. This is upsetting. And it's giving her a bad.

You convinced me. We'll give it the nine. Yeah. A bad. If it was just like, okay, hi. If during the intake session where they're just like going over the basics or how old are you, do you have children? What's your insurance? Right.

Trauma is something that the one thing you need to do when you're talking with someone about trauma is be like wholly listening and paying attention and engaged. So yeah. Okay. Well, good thing she stops seeing her. I feel bad that she's given her like you said, like a sense that therapy can be like that because I really don't think it. ever really is. Yes. I mean, look, I've had a personal experience with the therapist many years ago that we were in a session and he was like falling asleep and then he's like, oh, I'm sorry. I had a procedure and I'm on pain medication or whatever. And I was kind of like, well, then maybe you shouldn't

take in the day off. You know, like that's okay too. Therapists are human. You have procedures. You have things she just got out of the hospital, but you can't show up. in this condition. Right. Because the whole point is to show up fully. Otherwise, like, well,

there's no real point in it. It's not like another job or you can kind of have a day where you're just not doing a great job. Right. I think it would be even better for her to get, you know, a therapist with less experience, right?

That's maybe a new graduate or newly licensed therapist, who's going to really lean in and listen and be present and do all the things. So I don't give up. they're a great therapist out there and this one might be a great therapist too but she wasn't a great therapist on that day. If she has the capability of doing that, I doubt she's that. Yeah, I mean, this, this, the number of things that she did to indicate that she wasn't fully present is baffling. Yeah. And just a little tip. If you have insurance, you should check your insurance to see if they cover out of network benefits because a lot of, a lot of very good

therapist. I'm not saying that good therapists don't take insurance, all of them, but a lot of very good therapists don't take insurance. And if you check with your insurance company, sometimes you get out of network benefits. I've out of network benefits that pay for like 80% of a therapist out of network that doesn't take insurance. And I've personally found therapists that don't take insurance are a little bit more tuned in. They see less patients. They have a little bit more. Again, it's not like they're better. They probably just see less patients because they're make more money from the patients and so they maybe give you a little bit more personalized attention. Yes. And I've been on both sides of this. When I first started off, I was seeing like 10 patients a day.

And I wasn't as good of a therapist as I am when I see four or five patients a day because there's only so much mental energy that you can give, you know, to each person when you're seeing that many people working 80 hours a week. Like that's crazy. Right. Yeah. It's not the kind of job where it's like hours in, hours out. Right. It really does feel like you need to devote a certain time to not only doing that, but giving yourself the time to regroup. Yes. Totally. So don't give up. Find, you know, whether you go through your insurance or there's something called Open Path, which is therapists that do offer lower cost therapy services. And some of them are just starting off and trying to, you know, create a client base, which doesn't mean that. that they're not great therapists. I think, yes, there is something to be gained by having therapy experience, but there is something that just sometimes comes from someone who innately wouldn't do this. That would just lean in and listen and be very present and wants to be there for you. Like, holy. So keep looking. Sorry this happened to you. Good luck. Okay. Let's do our second trigger,

which is a voicemail. So let's roll the tapes. Okay. I got it triggered for you. It can do the stereotypical love all your podcasts. I listen to all of them. I do. But that's why we're calling because we listen to your podcast. I have a 11-month-old baby. Beautiful. She's amazing.

And my best friend, who has no kids, constantly refers to her dog as her baby and refers to herself as a mom. And I get it. Dog moms, whatever. But she goes as far as to say that we are the same, that having a baby is just like having a dog. And I get so mad. I literally cannot talk to her for days because she does not understand anything about having a baby. Am I being overreactive?

Should I say something? I don't know, because you're a dog mom. You're not a mom, mom. Okay, thanks for the advice. I love all the triggers. and everything that you guys talk about. Okay, this is funny. This is funny.

It's funny that she says this person's her best friend because I feel like if it were your best friend and they kept saying that, you'd be like, come on. Like, you'd be honest with them and you'd be like, you're annoying me. Yes, but also like if she really feels like this is her baby, she probably doesn't want to offend her by being like, come on, it's not your baby. I guess.

If she truly feels that way. Right. And I do think that I don't know what her friend's situation is. If she's not planning on having kids or if she's not in a position to have kids or she just doesn't want them, whatever her situation is, this is a relationship that she has chosen to create an identity around the dog mom. Yeah. That is an identity. I could see on your face that you're like. I could see why she'd be like, all right, you're like, come on.

This is stupid. But I see what you're saying. Just to say to compare it to someone with a baby and say like it's the same thing. Right. It just seems like you're trying, almost like trying to annoy them. Right. I totally get it. It's obviously not the same, right?

There's a lot more work and responsibility that goes into raising a human child than a dog. However, I think the fact that it's annoying this person, what it brought up for me was the concept of like a martyr. syndrome where it's almost like why does she need it why does she need validation that her life is harder than her friend's life or that's a good point her raising her dog her child is harder than her friend raising her dog why so i get that it's triggering i think a lot of people are annoyed by the whole like dog mom thing like it feels and it's because people are creating an identity around this thing, which is makes them feel good. It gives them a purpose. I don't see anything wrong with it, but I do get your point. It's obviously not the same. But why is it

bothering her so much? And I think this comes up in a lot of ways, like in work situations where, you know, like if I talk, I'll talk to someone who's in a corporate environment or like an attorney or a doctor where it's sort of like, if you're not working the hardest, then you're somehow not Right. You're right. I totally see what you're saying. Like there's a, there's a little bit of a like, I want to call it entitlement because I'm sure they are working really hard, but it's like in order to justify the fact that

they like can't do certain things or that it is hard or that they're doing this, they need to feel like everyone else also thinks that about their job. Yes. That's the way they say doctors have like a little bit of a God complex. Right. Right. Totally. And I think it's an aspect of our culture that I think this is my personal opinion is very detrimental, that it almost turns into this thing of like whoever is the most unhappy and tired wins. Right.

Which I think is just awful for everyone's. I mean, and then we all go to therapy to try to be happy. Right. There's the sense of like it can be annoying when people don't have a sense of what it's like for others. I could see why I would annoy her on the level of like, okay, you clearly don't understand how hard this is for me. So it feels like when you're comparing it to this thing, which is not as hard, it's you don't understand me. Right. And that's probably at the root of it where maybe she feels like her friend isn't validating

her feelings of whatever it is. I'm tired or I can't socialize or, you know, you don't get it, whatever the it is that she's trying to have her friend understand. So that's probably the root of it is that maybe she feels like her friend isn't understanding her experience day to day. But kind of, I do think people need to be careful about falling into this trap and families have this a lot, where it's like whoever is the most stressed out somehow is like the winner. And everyone's trying to tell everyone else how stressed out they are so that they can it's just not a good climate to live in whether it's a friendship or a work environment or family so you know i i get wanting to be validated but all right

so her life is easier than yours right but you have a baby right so that's a that's also here's the other thing about all that other stuff is like all these things are choices yes you have a baby that's a choice don't have a baby that's a choice you pick a job that's really time consuming in hard long hours, that's a choice. Yes. Like, and I understand, like, every, not everyone has the same set of circumstances and certain people, you know,

need to work harder, do whatever, whatever, blah, blah. But, like, mostly, these are choices. Yes. So sometimes when you make a choice, maybe, and then, like, you have to suffer the negative aspects of it, I think you could become a little, maybe, like, resentful and that's another part that's going into this thing. Yes.

She seems annoyed that she, like, maybe all, that's all the negative things that come along with motherhood. Yes. And that doesn't feel as okay to see. say as maybe like my friends being annoying. Yes. So I think that's at the root of this. And it's interesting. And I do this a lot with my groups and I encourage people to do it is exploring your identity. How do you identify? And is it if it's as a mother or a hard worker or someone who's attention to detail or someone who, you know, whatever your identity is that sometimes it's

very helpful to, A, figure out what you're clinging to in terms of like this person. Maybe she's clinging to this idea of like, I'm a mother and what does that mean? And like you said, it's kind of like, I'm unhappy, but that's because I'm a mother. And that justifies me being overworked and tired and stressed out. But just sometimes exploring what do I identify with? How do I cling to that identity? and how is clinging to that identity actually negatively affecting my life? And whatever,

whether it's, I'm funny or I'm easygoing or I'm hardworking or I'm type A or. And we develop these identities from the time we're like eight. You know, like I remember, you know, you being the little like, you know,

nervous little like, you know, oopsie, you know, like you. Is that an identity you choose? No, it was chosen for you, but I think you were always like, you know, when you were little, it was kind of, I remember it was like, you would like be clumsy or whatever. And then that's just something that was maybe like assigned to you at age eight.

I don't think you're that anymore. Right. Somehow you came out of that. But like some people don't. They're like assigned an identity as like, I'm good at school. And then forever you have to be good at school. Right. Even when you don't want to be good at school anymore.

You don't care. Like somehow we just cling to it. it because it gives us a purpose and it makes us feel like we are something in comparison to everybody else. Yeah. And it makes you feel like you know who you are. Yes. But sometimes you just keep riding that train when you don't even think about, am I, is this the track I want to be on or maybe I want to be on a different track? Then you have a midlife crisis. Yeah. And then maybe you come out of it and you think, oh, wow, I'm glad that I re-evaluated that because I could have just lived out the rest of my years feeling like I needed to be type A.

Right. But maybe I don't want to be type A. So this is all to say we give this a three. You're the problem. No, I get it. But I do think it would be helpful for her to explore why she needs her friend's identity to be less difficult than her identity in order to feel okay. I like that.

Okay. Just exploration. I get it. I get why it's triggering, but it is a good moment to kind of figure out why this is bugging you. Right. Yes. We did it. We did it.

I'll put a little plug out there before we wrap up for my groups where we do some of this identity, ego exploration stuff. I have some space. It's probably not an evening group. I have a space on like a Tuesday afternoon, which doesn't seem to be a popular time for a lot of people. Middle of the day, I get it. But if anyone out there is interested, you can email me at Naomi Bernstein's site. at gmail.com and then we'll see if you're a good match for the group. Oh, you pick them. Yeah, well, that has to kind of like be a good fit. And it's not, you know, again, I don't put people

together that are all going through the same thing for this reason. We're all exploring identity and like being able to release my identity where I'm not like I'm in this group because I'm depressed or I'm in this group because I'm anxious or I'm in this group because I'm having fertility issues or I'm in this group because I whatever it is it's just we're all sharing like a common human experience and kind of releasing some of those um you know labels that we put on it so uh but that being said everyone has to be kind of the right fit and I try to match the groups up in ways that I think are going to be beneficial so but hit me up and see if uh it might be something you're interested or something that works out time-wise, which seems to be a struggle for a lot of people.

But I love this work. It's great. If this is ringing true with you, anything about wanting to kind of widen your perspective in terms of your identity, who you are, what you're clinging to, I think the group would be a great place for you. Naomi Bernstein-Sike at gmail.com. Thank you. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales-Picot, and Rebecca Sousmecalfe. editing by Basilio Perez guest booking by Allie Freedlander Send your advice emails to oversharing

at betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-66236294. Betches