Oversharing - Why Can’t I Stop Stalking My Ex On Social Media?

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

Jordana and Dr. Naomi start the week with a conversation about the recent heat waves sweeping the country, and why learning to be uncomfortable can actually help you live longer. Plus, Jordana tells us which online distraction she’s giving up for the sake of her own mental health. Next, a listener writes in to ask how to get out of a sh*t-talking loop she fell into with her mother-in-law. How do you break a cycle of negativity when it’s the source of your strongest bond with someone? Then they answer a Betchicist question about rumors circulating regarding a close friend’s boyfriend and his drunk behavior. Are you obligated to address the situation, and is it considered disloyal to the friend if you don’t bring it to her attention immediately? The intentions for the week are all about resisting the urge to stalk your ex’s social media after a recent breakup. Been there. Finally, they rate a Triggered scenario about calling your brief relationship “a something” and weigh in on a voicemail from a listener whose therapist canceled at the last minute. Oversharing: Calm TF Down is available now, featuring our first four guided meditations! Become a subscriber in the Apple Podcasts app or go to subscribe.betches.com Check out our latest promo codes here: https://betches.com/promos Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your position or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Trudan Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. How's it going?

How was your weekend? Weekend was good. We got finally some rain yesterday. It's been really, really hot. And everyone keeps texting me like, how are you holding up? How are you holding up? Was I supposed to be doing that? I mean, like, it's hot out. Just like go inside. Yeah, I mean, like, I'm fine. I'm really, I'm definitely used to it. I don't, it doesn't bother me. I'm like, I think we're similar like that. Like, I'm a warm weather creature. Like, I don't. Yeah. It doesn't upset me. I just relax my body. And I'm kind of like, all right, this feels nice. I prefer very hot to very cold.

Yeah, I do too. I think a lot of people strongly disagree with that. People don't like sweating. I don't really mind sweating. I don't mind sweating either. I'm just kind of like there's, it's easier to, I think, just like be inside, go inside if you're, but I don't know. It just like, it kind of feels nice. You feel like you're like in a sauna.

They have things that. Right. Mimic that. No, I do feel with that. Like, if I just relax my body enough, I can kind of get coming. in it, but when it's cold, there's a certain type of cold or like, I just can't relax enough to get comfy, like, for any long period of time. I actually read, I read this book about longevity and in it, this like, it's like a Harvard

researcher and he was basically like, the key to living longer is sort of to like make your body uncomfortable. Yeah. Like fairly frequently. And part of that is like really hot or really cold temperatures. being uncomfortable just makes your like cells somehow like live longer right well that makes sense i don't know the science behind that i'd be very interested is that an article that you read or it's a book i can find out what it's called it's david sinclair and he basically just goes through i mean

like a lot of the shit he says is like crazy like i could never do it it's just right like you're like he suggests like eating one feast like eating one meal a day and like you know cutting out alcohol and like all sugar. Like if you want to live to like 150 like a very boring life, it is a very, I believe it works, but I'm kind of like, I'm not going to do all this stuff. It's not worth it. Right. But sometimes I'm like, oh, I could pick up this.

It's called lifespan, why we age and why we don't have to. Yeah, that makes sense. I've heard that too about like eating, just like eating less in general kind of will make you live longer. Yeah. Being uncomfortable. Yeah. And I guess I wonder, I'm interested to read the book, but I wonder if it's more about like

everything we talk about, like tolerating being uncomfortable, then just makes everything a little bit emotionally easier because you've, like, tolerated a bunch of stuff. So you're not, like, afraid of it because you know that you've done it and you can go, you can like do hard things because you're doing them frequently. So it doesn't feel like people that are very comfortable all the time. And we'll even talk about this in some of the emails, but like you're comfortable. And then all of a sudden you're like so afraid of something bad happening that like, it just is very, it probably stresses your whole immune system to be worrying all the time about a bad thing happening because you don't feel prepared for it.

Meanwhile, if you're constantly uncomfortable, you're sort of like, all right, I didn't eat for three days. Like, I'm okay. I handled that. Like I can, or I, you know. Do it again. Right. I do it too.

Right. Or I can handle this guy not texting me back because like I can do really hard things or right. Right. No, that's a great point. I mean, he usually, he mostly talks about the physical stuff, but I have to imagine the mental stuff is true too. And I think I've read that before too. It's like you want to be, you want to have like a certain amount of adversity. If you have too much, it's, it's like bad.

But if you have like just the right amount, I think it, it helps probably you mentally, you know, live longer or less. And in our modern, modern day society where everyone is, not everyone, a lot of people are comfy, cozy, not starving, not too hot, not too cold. You have to like buy a cold plunge pool and put it in your backyard to become uncomfortable, like on purpose, because everything's like too comfortable. Like, you know, in caveman days, we were uncomfortable all the time. Right. But I guess then we only lived until we were like 30, so I don't know.

That's funny. I mean, yeah, yeah, the idea of that is like very funny. Like we try, we kind of like, we pay a lot of money to be uncomfortable now when that used to just be the thing. Right. Right. But speaking of uncomfortable, I deleted. I deleted Reddit. Okay.

Last week. Well, you know what it was, I thought I would, I guess. So I have, I have a procedure coming up. Then I had to go back on birth control to have, which is already kind of like messing with my hormones and making me like feel all sorts of ways. The birth control. Right. Yeah.

And then there's like, so there's, there's, there's reddits about like certain podcasts that I do, not this one. Although we get mentioned occasionally on there. And it's really just like people's feedback. to every show that I do or just like anything that's going on. Oh, gosh. I just got a little sensation of like anxiety in my belly just thinking about that, that that exists and you can look at that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's like, I mean, obviously like it's kind of thing where I tell you I read all the reviews and like that's unhealthy too. But this is a place where people like anonymously go to basically like talk shit about whatever is going on. And you know what? I, to an extent, I get it. And I mean, I have a pop culture podcast where I talk shit about celebrities all day. So I'm not like above the idea of critiquing things that are going on in pop culture or anything like that. So I don't like,

I understand the entertainment value in doing that. But I also think we're not meant mentally to know everyone's opinions about everything we do. Yes. And I, you know, I host three different shows. I speak a lot. And sometimes people don't agree with the things that I say. And it used to me it was a balance of like,

I want to read the reviews. I want to read the Reddit to like get a sense of if I, you know, if I'm missing something and this is important feedback or, and I think there's a very thin line between that and like letting other people's views dictate what you say and do. Mm-hmm. You know, it's very hard to find the balance.

Because I do think some constructive criticism is important. I think it is important to get a pulse for how you come off. Right. Totally. Right. But I think that it can become a little bit addictive. And I think what I found is just kind of like, the more I did it, the more those became my beliefs about myself or someone's opinion.

You know, you only remember the bad things that anyone says. And it just feels like a very, again, like, I'm kind of like, I'm okay that it exists. I'm not trying to take it down. I'm not trying to like, like I think people have the right to have conversations around things they enjoy. And honestly, I'm kind of flattered that people are even talking about it. Right. Right.

Right. Feel moved enough to say stuff. But I'm now kind of of the opinion and hopefully this stays with me that it's not really my business to like read every comment that's been said about me. Yes. Yeah. I totally agree. I think there is, I can only imagine it is addictive because I'm sure if there's stuff on there that's nice, it's like, whoa, that feels great.

Like that person really appreciated that. So if it was, you know you're, you're also doing it because it feels nice to get here positive things. Yes. In addition to getting feedback. But, you know, anonymous feedback does feel almost a little bit more genuine than like a friend or a family member telling you like, oh, I really like that or like that show or even a random person that you run into. They're not going to be like, yeah, I hate everything you say. And like, I totally disagree with most of what you talk about. They're probably going to be

polite. So there is something that also feels like I'm getting the real scoop here. Right. You're most able to read minds in some way. Yeah. Right. So I could see, but it does sound. It is hard. I thought you, you were always good at that. In the beginning, when we started this show, I had never experienced any of that before. And people started writing reviews. And I found myself like in that rabbit hole of like reading reviews. And you were and there were like if there was a negative one, I remember I would text you, be like, oh, this person said this.

Like do you think that's something we should look into? And you were kind of like absolutely not. Like it's one person. You know, so you were very good at kind of saying like you have to create a balance. But then if you're hearing the same thing from multiple people, it probably is something worth looking into. But I would let your team of people worry about that and let them read the Reddit. And then they can tell you, okay, a lot of people are giving this feedback.

Maybe you should change this thing instead of you sitting there. Like when you're about to fall asleep on a Tuesday night hearing that somebody hated something that you said. Yeah, I think that was a good move to delete that. Yeah. I just don't think it particularly is helpful. And also I kind of am of the opinion that if something is like this big of a deal that I need to know about it, then someone will find a way to get me that message. Yes, exactly.

They'll come into my DMs. They'll say it to my face. Someone will say it to my face. Yes. Yes. I do agree with that also. And I'm sure you, I mean, I'm sure you've gotten someone that's messaged you directly and said this thing was offensive or.

whatever it is. Totally. And I again, I think, and again, I think that like in a world where there's so much content being produced, occasionally you do miss the mark or, or you say something that not everyone agrees with. And then that's fine. But I think the nature of the internet now is that there's sort of an inability of people to hear something they disagree with and then just like move on with their day. Totally. Well, it's so funny because I was, um, I don't, I don't watch a lot of like regular TV, but I was at the gym and I, my, I didn't have my headphones. I had to use whatever there was there. And it was like watching, you know, it was either nothing or watching actual television. And so I'm flipping through and I, um, and I pop on Dr. Phil has this guy, this like totally

misogynist, like the total type of guy that he was just, what he was saying, it caught my attention because he started off saying something like, after the age of, of 25, women are on the downhill and their fertility has already started to decline and men are no longer interested and like just all of this. And don't, it was like that women shouldn't be focused on their careers and doing things for themselves, you know, doing things to make themselves feel empowered because men only want feminine women. It was like that whole thing. And even as I'm repeating it now, I feel that like, sensation. in my gut of like anger.

Yes, just like a visceral. And I was like, I stopped. I noticed it immediately. And I was like, you know, kind of like, why am I watching this? So I flipped the channel and I turn away. And then I realized like there was something that almost like makes me like I kind of wanted to go back and hear what he was saying more of what he was saying. Because it was kind of like this, I need to understand what is making. making this person, first of all, why does he have this stage? What is making him feel this way?

So I, like, I knew that it was upsetting me and I wanted to just like have my exercise and not be upset. But I noticed this urge that like I kind of wanted to go back to the channel and like continue to hear this really upsetting material for some reason. It was just like. And were you mad at Dr. Phil for having him on? I think there was a part of me that was like, I mean, he was doing the thing where he was being the good guy and kind of being like, oh, this is not, you know, he wasn't like agreeing or supportive. But I'm also, you are kind of giving him this platform to speak, but I guess freedom of speech. And everyone gets to say what they want to say. And, you know, he should be able to say what he wants to say.

But I did feel this fear of like, everyone's going to. going to listen to this and some people are going to believe it and all these little girls are going to start feeling like all they need to do is be pretty and young women are going to like some people are going to believe this and that's really upsetting. So I could see that there's like this itch that you kind of want to scratch when there's stuff out there that feels upsetting that you can't really walk away. Yeah. And I think, you know, people like that's people, there's discussions everywhere about everything and it's kind of like at what point like where is the line between and this is for anything this is my me watching something or taking in other people's content too it's like where's

the line between okay you're entitled to your opinion and your opinion might be harmful yeah and I do think there has to be that acceptance and when we get into the rest of these emails we'll talk more about it but sometimes it's like that thing that you're so afraid of which maybe when you read that is like people are going to stop listening. People aren't going to like it anymore. People are going to think whatever the criticism was on this or I'm that or, um, you know,

and just kind of like allowing that fear to exist instead of pushing it away. So that again, like the uncomfortable thing, like I can just be uncomfortable in this thing and realize that yeah, this might be harmful. This not yours specifically. I don't think whatever you did was harmful. Hypothetically.

Whatever. Um, but like this, people are saying, saying this, this might be harmful and like, that's reality. And I just have to like accept that. I can't like, you know, consume enough information to feel like if I understand it well enough, then maybe somehow I can stop this from happening. Or if I, you know, if I, if I watch it or I don't watch it. I mean, you had your fill, which is fine. And I think it's better for you not to do that.

But maybe at some point you just read it and you like just breathe into the discomfort. of like, yeah, there are people out there that don't like me. Which is that, that's generally what I do. Like, it doesn't like ruin my day. But I'm just, it's almost like a series of like micro like dings. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

I never like, I can read it and then go and like have a lovely day. Right. Which is great. So that's, you know what I mean? But it's just more like in that moment. And I'm kind of like, what are the psychological effects of just like reading 10 negative things about yourself and then continuing on a bad. It's going to seep in there.

You probably come out in your dreams or something. Something like that. But I've been, you know, I've been working on the internet for like 12 years now. Yeah. Saying a lot of things. Saying a lot of things that many people are going to disagree with. But it's, you know, it made me think of that. I don't know if you heard about this, but when is Palatro was on some podcast and

someone asked her about her diet. And she basically was like, I just eat soup or like something like, some like crazy restrictive diet. And then there was a lot of backlash to that being like people, you know, young people hear what you're saying and they think that like that's the way to be. And she didn't say like, I prescribe this. I think everyone should be on the diet. Right. This is what my diet is. Right. So in some ways, I felt like she's saying, someone asked her, what do you eat? She's being honest about what she eats. Doesn't sound very tasty. She's very thin. If like, this is the real. of what she's doing.

Right. She has this company, which is like this well in this company, is it potentially armful to some people who listen who think that she looks great and want to eat like she does? Yeah, but also like it is what it is. That's what she does. Yes, exactly. Right.

I totally agree with you. And I think demonizing her for being honest about what it is. And I guess if she's saying that it's like the healthiest way to be and whatever, and if she's just answering what she ate, I totally agree with you. I think we have to realize that there's so many different people that have so many different ways of living. And if you're worried about like your kids or like young people that are easily

influenced, it's like you have to have, that's the conversation that needs to be had. Like you can't look to any one person to be your like guide in life, even your parents or your pastor or like anyone, you know, you have to really realize. that there's a bunch of people doing a bunch of different things and no one person should have

the power that much power that you're like, oh, Gwyneth Paltrow said all she has is soup. And then if that's what you're going to do then at that point, you were going to do that anyway. And you're going to find somebody else who's doing that, who's, you know, I totally agree. I think that the best thing we can do is a society because there's going to be a lot of people out there, especially on the internet. We live in a hyper digital world where you can see. anything. There's a million, there's a billion opinions, not all of them the healthiest. Mm-hmm. Not every, not all of them, even like, people don't even have consensus on what the,

the necessarily the healthiest is. But I think the only, the best thing you can do is to just try to raise kids who are just have a critical eye of, of consuming information. Yes. Yes. Yes. Amen. Totally. Whatever you take in, that is an option. That is, there's no one out there that even when we talk. You know, like I like to feel like we know what we're talking about, but whoever's out there listening, like, this is a piece of your pie in terms of what all the information that you're getting and whatever, you know, like sometimes we'll do a trigger it or rate something a certain way or say something and people get really upset. Like, oh, that I thought that was more triggering or wasn't triggering or whatever. And it's like, that's okay. I'm not, you know, this is not the old, this is how we feel about it, but like totally open to other perspectives. and totally realize that what we give, you know, a two, other people might feel like is a seven.

And that's okay. And we're just a small piece. So even whatever we put out here, I mean, I guess that's a good thing about there being so much information is that you have lots and lots of options for podcasts and things that you can listen to. And you should to get a real balanced view of the world. I totally agree. And so if you have shit to say, if you, If you don't like anything we just said, take to Reddit. I'm not reading it anymore.

I'm not reading it anymore so you can go there. Right. Totally. Let it all hang out. All right. Let's get into our episode. Let's do it. You ready?

All right. I'll read the first oversharing email. We have a voicemail also later in the episode. If you want to leave us a voicemail, you can go to 6.6.4. Yeah, you can call 6463-6294. This show gets some great voicemails. Or you can email oversharing at Betches. Okay. Dear Jordana and Dr. Naomi, huge fan of the pod and also proud you up benefit subscriber,

thank you for endlessly for all you guys do, looking to get some advice and how to navigate a sticky situation with my boyfriend's mother. Apologies in advance for the length, but I believe the context is important. My boyfriend 43 and I 28 have been dating for a year and a half now. Yes, quite the age gap, but we deeply love one another and plan to get married within the next two years or so. My boyfriend has been divorced for almost five years now. He has two elementary school-age children with his ex-wife, and they co-parent 50-50. Their divorce was messy at first, what divorce isn't. And now they are amicable for the most part.

As a side note, the ex-wife has been very rude and cold to me in the past. I have seen texts from her sent to my boyfriend, disapproving of our relationship early on, slash our age gap, etc. Through my own work slash therapy, I've moved on from these interactions, and finally it feels like we're in a better place. I understand and have accepted that we are not going to be the Kardashians, but I would like to maintain civil interactions for the sake of the kids and my own well-being. Now on to my issue. My boyfriend's mother is very involved in our lives and she only lives 10 minutes away and watches the kids every Monday and Wednesday after school since my boyfriend

works full-time in an office. That being said, I see my boyfriend's mom quite a bit. Well, my boyfriend's mother hates his ex-wife and jumps at every opportunity to talk shit about her to me the second that my boyfriend and his kids leave the room. I will admit, I gave into the shit talking early on because it felt good, like we were bonding, and I wanted her acceptance. But now I absolutely dread being alone in the room with her. I really do not enjoy partaking and bad-mouthing the ex-wife anymore and feel guilty afterwards. How do I stop from engaging in this toxic behavior? This is not who I am at my core, and I hate spreading the negative narrative. I am definitely conflict-avoid and the idea of telling her directly that this is something I do not want to talk about makes me sick.

Any tips for how I can handle this or redirect the conversation? Examples of the bad mouthing. One, Blank is such a selfish bitch. Can you believe she's asking to switch weekends? Or two. Blank is a gold digger and shouldn't have gotten the bigger house slash car and the divorce. And not to be morbid. My boyfriend's mom is only 67 and in great health.

So I think I've got at least 20 more years of this. Please, I think that's like the opposite of morbid. Yeah. Well, I think it's morbid the idea that she's like the only way out of this is her death. Right. Which is not going to happen for a long time. Just the idea that someone's doing the mental math and how long you'll live until you'll be out of their life. Right. Yeah, I get this. I definitely can validate. I think what this happens a lot where like in the beginning, especially in this situation where it's like you have a romantic partner and you want to feel. feel close to them and you want to bond with their family members or the people in their life. So you kind of want to do this thing where it's like, oh, we have this private juicy

convo. And that helps us feel bonded. And then after you're like, okay, I'm in, we're in. Now I don't really want to do this anymore. And it probably made her feel like better about herself in a time in the beginning of the relationship where she was maybe like unsure of where she stood. She's like, oh, the mother-in-law likes me so much more. She hates the ex. She probably liked it to an extent. For sure. I think it's always better to feel like, oh, the better replacement instead of like, if she was talking about how much she loved the ex-wife, I think this would be a very different, but still very strong email. Totally. And I could see it going the other way where it's like she was trying to keep them together or she's trying to get them back together or something that would be definitely way worse. But I guess her issue is,

how does she untangle from this dynamic that she's created, which I think people can just relate to that. We've had emails like that. Like I've set this tone with this coworker and now I need to like undo it. I need to like get out of this dynamic of whatever once served me is no longer serving me. Yeah. I think we had the one with a yeah, with the coworker who was talking a lot of shit. And then she was like, it's kind of bringing out a bad side of me. Right. Right. So I do think people get themselves into this. I think there's a few ways you can do it. I think she knows that one of the main ways which she would love to avoid is just saying, hey, I feel kind of bad like talking about so and so.

You know, I don't want to kind of have like negative vibes and I'm trying to get along with her. So maybe we could just kind of chill out on that, which I guess is the hardest. And then the more subtle one would be, and I've had to do this at times too, where you just kind of literally don't respond. Like you just give almost no response. Like ignore. We talk about in couples where if couples are disconnected, like the husband might look out

the window. I think we talked about the study where like the husband looks out the window and he's like, oh look, there's a blue jay. Oh yeah. And the wife just like doesn't say anything. Like accepting a bid. Yes. For attention.

Yes. Yes. Yes. So she's putting out a bid to like engage in this. And I think if you could just literally almost like pretend. you didn't hear it and just totally like actually just like pretend you didn't hear it and like talk about something else is one option. And eventually she might pick up on like you're just not interested in this. Or the other one that you can do is sort of like defend her in some way.

Like say like, look, I can understand how she feels. And it does sound like this writer can kind of see like, all right, if I got divorced from my husband and he ended up marrying someone that was like, whatever it is 12 years younger, then I'm assuming she's the same. me, it's just him. Like, that would be kind of annoying. Yeah. No, I was thinking that. Like, I might cling on to that at first. Right. You know, put it in a box of judging that it's like not a real relationship or whatever. It's all purely physical or she's like an arm candy kind of thing or whatever it is. So even just maybe pointing out to the mom like, look, I can see why she's upset, this, that, and the other. Or like, I don't think it's so crazy that she wanted to switch weekends or,

you know, just kind of like not necessarily agreeing. And after a while, that might not feel satisfying to her and she might just stop doing it. If every time you're kind of like defending the ex-wife, which also might be a nice practice for you to like defend the ex-wife who maybe you have some negative feelings towards, but is the mother of the children that you're going to potentially have in your life for the rest of your life. It might be a nice injection of positivity towards that little nuclear dynamic that you have going on. Yeah, I think it's like hard because it's again, it was this bonding thing. So to say like,

maybe we should stop doing this kind of feels like, I think it could make the other person feel like a little shamed. Yeah, like rejected and shamed. Yeah. Right. Like, oh,

like, I'm the only one who's like still into this. So I think it's such a hard. I get why she wants to avoid the conflict because she's like, I don't want to make her feel like we're not like having fun anymore. Totally. Which is why maybe the option of like, and I honestly,

I feel like I personally, I personally have to do this because I feel like there's a lot of people in our, not a lot, but a few people in our family that are like shit talkers, a few people in Jeff's family that are like shit talkers. So sometimes I have to do the thing where I'm like kind of playing devil's advocate and like nobody really likes that. It's not fun. But I'll be like, well, look, I know.

Right. You wouldn't be the first person I call to talk shit. Right. She's good. Right. Well, I could see why they did that. I don't think it was so crazy that she said that thing. Right.

Or maybe she could bring an anecdote of something the ex-wife did that was really nice. And she could just like spontaneously say it. Right. Like getting ahead of it before she even gets into that negative talk. Like let's say she just sees the mom and then they're talking about something else. And she's like, oh, I ran into the ex. Like she actually like did this like great thing. Blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. Injecting it with positivity. Yes. Before you're diffusing the negative thing. Totally. Might annoy her. Yeah. I'm sure any of this is probably going to annoy her because she feels like she found a sounding board for all of her, you know, rage against this ex-wife.

So, yeah, she's going to have to probably find someone else to do that with. And it's good that she's not doing it with the son and certainly the kids. It's nice that she said they leave the room. She doesn't do it until they leave the room. Right. So she's doing that. And I do think that you can tolerate a little bit of it. but I would just maybe defend her a little bit,

and then she'll kind of get the vibe that you're not, like, always going to be against her on all this stuff. And I like your idea of maybe just come in with something positive every now and then. I don't think this needs to be addressed head on. I agree with, like, you know, I would like to talk to you about the way we talk about so and so. I agree.

I don't think, I think you could do it more subtly than that. Yeah. And maybe she, like, thinks you like it. Right. Maybe she thinks the ex likes it because maybe she did it. in the beginning. So maybe she doesn't even care that much, but she's just kind of like, this person likes when I talk shit about the ex. Totally. And I think a lot of people would assume that the new

girlfriend might enjoy talking shit about the ex. So yeah, I think you could get away with tweaking this with subtle little hints of like just changing the dynamic. And I'm curious how it works. If you can, if you end up doing it, let us know. I would definitely do the route of like just, you know, defend her if she says something. Oh, I don't think it was so crazy. I don't mind switching weekends because sometimes we need to switch weekends. So like it's really not that bad or whatever, just kind of playing devil's advocate on the other side, which I get it. I'm in that position a lot and I feel like it does create like a disconnect with some people. Right.

Like an awkwardness. Yeah. They're like trying to bond and it feels like I'm like a buzzkill or like, you know, they're trying to bond over something and it's like, nope, you're like putting up a wall. Right. Even when someone, it's funny, that happens, even if you're talking, we talk about. how like it's good to use reality TV is sort of a place for your shit talking because those people are sort of being paid to be those people. But like sometimes even if you're having a discussion about like an episode of Real Housewives

or The Bachelor and someone like comes out with a very different opinion, I'm kind of like, should I like say actually I thought like this person was the crazy one. Right, right. Or because it kind of feels like when you do that, you're sort of killing the conversation a little bit or making it feel like weird. if you don't agree with totally especially like you said in the beginning it can make someone feel shamed for being like a shitty person and like you know like if someone says something kind of mean even about like a reality star and sometimes I do this like I'm just I just I don't know I'm just

where I'll be like oh I mean come on she's trying her best or whatever you know like and people are like shut up you're so annoying like no she sucks right yeah right or whatever it is like she did that thing and I'm like, okay, fine. Like I sometimes I have to loosen up a little bit and just kind of be like, all right, let's talk some shit. It's going to help us bond. So I get it. It is probably going to create a little disconnect, unfortunately, at first.

Maybe you can find something else to take its place. Yeah, find someone else to talk shit about. There must be someone else in the family. All right. Let's do another one. Let's do a betches. You want to read it? All right.

I'll read this one. Yeah. Okay. Hello, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. Love the podcast. My favorite go-to Tuesday ritual. I have an ethical dilemma I would be interested to hear your thoughts on.

I have a very close group of college girlfriends, very close, more like family close, spending holidays together, being involved in each other's families, etc. Most of us have lived in the same city for years now. We're in our early 30s and live together before moving in with our significant others. We have been close with each other throughout the trials and tribulations of dating and settling down with very stable long-term forever partners. my best friend began dating her now live-in boyfriend during COVID. I was skeptical at first mainly because of some of his behavior when he drank.

He always seemed to get more drunk than the rest of us, cause fights and say inappropriate things. My friend was aware too, and she and him together have really worked on his drinking. I know he's seen a therapist a few times, and over the years I've seen improvements, and he has won us all over. He is one of us, L.O.L. And I really do like the guy. This past year, he was struggling as his company was undergoing changes. my company was hiring and I helped him get a job. He was doing really well and everyone likes him.

A little over a month ago, we had a company tailgate before a baseball game with a lot of drinking involved. It was fun. I could definitely tell my friend's boyfriend was drunk, but everyone was partying hard that day. And unlike in prior years, I didn't feel or say anything out of line in his behavior in comparison with the rest of the company. The day after the event, he kept texting me asking if he did anything bad or if I heard anything about him. This went on for a week or so. And finally, I said, hey, do you have a distant memory of something bad? And that's why you are so anxious. He assured me he did not and was just making sure.

Over a month later, I'm at the lunch table with some of my coworkers and the baseball game came up. And we were laughing about how fun it was. My coworker mentioned that she heard some wild stories about the night, including one about my friend's boyfriend. She said he slapped another girls behind who also works with us in another department. another coworker at the table said, I heard that too. And I heard he also said, didn't know you had that thing on you while doing it. What does that even mean?

Like, didn't know you had that ass on you. Oh, okay. I think. Yeah, that's probably right. This was. It sounds a lot more like less sexual when you read it. Didn't know you had that thing on you. I could practice my actress skills.

This was corroborated by everyone else at the lunch. table, so basically I was the only person who didn't know. I'm having trouble figuring out how to move forward with this. My boyfriend thinks I either need to address it with our friend's boyfriend directly or drop it completely. I understand, but I also feel loyalty to my friend and roles reversed. I would hope she would tell me. I don't believe this is a reflection of his character, but I do think it's more of reflection of his issues with drinking, not being resolved. If he did this at a work event with his girlfriend's best friend present. What would he do in situations where you would think have less inhibition like a boy's weekend or bachelor party? Let me know if you think addressing it with him,

letting him know these rumors are going around about him at work is enough. Or do you think it is being disloyal to my friend by not telling her immediately? I really wish I never knew this info. But now that I do, I'm just trying to figure out the right thing to do. Thanks for your help. Sincerely, the slap heard round the world. Okay. This is a good one. Yeah, tough one. Tough. I think he remembers doing that. Yes. And that is why he kept asking her to make sure she hadn't heard this.

Right. Which at the time, I guess she didn't. It would have been more convenient if she had heard this story before he was asking her because that would have been obviously a great time to bring it up to him. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's too late. I mean, he was asking and asking and asking. And now she has an answer for him, which she didn't have a month ago.

So I definitely think she should bring it up to him. And depending on his reaction, I think she could say something like, I really think you should tell so and so. What if he's like, I really would prefer not to. It was like obviously a big mistake. And like I wouldn't do that again. Or like I was just messing around. You know, I was kind of drunk and thought it was funny at the time. I didn't like cheat on her or do anything bad.

Right. I probably personally, I'd probably push back on that like hard. And just be like, I think you should just let her know. I would want to know if I were her. I'm sure you would want to know if like that was her. And then maybe your last resort is like, if you don't tell her, I'm probably going to. And I think you can phrase it like it makes me a little uncomfortable knowing this and not telling my friend. You know, we're obviously like best friends.

I would feel really, you could just make it about you. I would feel really uncomfortable like not telling her just because I would, if it happened, if it was me, I'd want her to tell me. But if you're going to tell her, I won't say anything. Totally. I love that. I think that's perfect. That's what I was saying. Right.

So it feels less like, you better tell her or I'm going to like. Right. It's basically saying if you don't tell her, I will, but in a much nicer way where you're just kind of like, this is going to eat away at me, knowing this information and not telling her. So basically, I think it would be best if you tell her. So, yeah, I think you can phrase it in a way that lets him know that. that if he doesn't say anything, then you probably will.

I honestly don't think if this is a very good friend of yours, that you can go on indefinitely knowing this and not letting her know. Right. Especially if they already have like an issue about him drinking. You know this is something that she clearly cares about like they've been to therapy about it. Right. And the truth is he probably needs consequences also to like find motivation to continue you whatever he's working on. I mean, she said he went to like a few therapy sessions. Right. If you're

really an alcoholic or struggling a lot with alcohol, like a handful of therapy sessions probably isn't going to do it. Like he needs something ongoing, whatever that is. And maybe this is like a little wake up call for him that those few therapy sessions were a great start. But I need like, we always talk about in here, just like you can't go to the gym four times and be like, I'm in great shape now. I never have to go again. It's the same thing with mental health. And any of the, these issues. Like you have to be working on it on a pretty daily basis in order to maintain changes. So he might need to recognize that by like, okay, you took your eye off the prize and look what happens. This is like actually great. Not great, but like it's great to kind of be like, here's the proof that when you

stop working on this, it rears its head. Right. Yeah. And I can agree with the friend where she's thinking, like, if he did this at an event that I'm at, it's a work event. A work event. Right. Right. Like what might he be doing when he's just out with friends? Totally. I think it would be nice to give him the opportunity, especially since he asked you several times. If you had heard anything. Right. To just say, hey, remember when you had spoken to me a month ago, I actually hadn't heard anything at that point. But someone mentioned this to me now makes me really uncomfortable. Right. Even I'm thinking maybe he could say to her now that it's a month later, she could say to him, I'm sorry, something like, I wanted to let you know. I just heard this.

I haven't told so-and-so yet. I wanted to come to you first and give you a chance to tell her, which is also setting the tone of like, if you don't, I'm going to. Like, I'm expecting that she's going to know this and like, hopefully it's going to come from you. Like, you might lead into it with that to let him know, like, I expect that she's going to find out about this and hopefully it's going to be from you in the nicest of ways. Like, oh, I found this out.

I haven't told so-and-so. I wanted to come to you first. And I agree. His reaction will probably be somewhat telling. He clearly knows he did something wrong because he asked her a few times. Right. Yeah, what he wanted to know. What he heard.

What he heard. What he heard. Who I did it to tell anybody. And she did. Or like did anybody see. Right. Right. Which they did.

All right. All right. Okay. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I love the podcast and I appreciate the advice and space provided. I really enjoy the funny moments and find myself giggling with you both. Oh, I love that.

That's so cute. L.O.L. I'll get right to my scenario. I broke up with my boyfriend of four years almost two months ago. I felt myself becoming really insecure and jealous to the point where I felt like I was losing myself to negative thoughts. I'm hoping it was the right choice and it felt like it was at the time. I'm doing well the first month. I now feel like I'm reverting. I'm finding myself visiting his social media pages every day on multiple occasions. He's not really active, doesn't post much, nor has many followers slash following. With that, I feel almost as if I'm watching to see if any of that chance. changes, obsessing over who may be added as a friend, what may be posted, or what he may be liking. There's days when I try to stop, but it's become routine. I've tried to block him, but that hasn't been successful since I can just unblock him and be back to where I started since most of his social media is public. How can I get to the root issue on what I'm gaining from this? I obviously know it's not healthy and I know it's not okay. What intentions can I give myself to stop? I'm 90% sure our breakup was the correct move because I was feeling so unhappy, but I can't help to wonder

of my obsession is because I don't have closure for myself. How can I stop wondering what he's doing and what he's up to? I want to move on, but this isn't helping. I don't want to be miserable or be that loser X that's doing this. Any advice would be helpful. Love, a betcha who thinks she's a detective. I want to like normalize this first because I've done this before where like social media stalking and X can almost feel like one of the daily apps that you're checking. It kind of just feels like it's like check my email, check my Instagram. Yeah, I've totally done this like sort of compulsive behavior thing. I mean, I just turned into a routine. Yeah. I mean, I've just talked about how I compulsively checked,

used to check right Reddit, which was also like not great for me mentally. So I think that this is completely relatable. I think a lot of people do this. I think a lot more people do this than we'll even admit to it publicly. It's not like most people are sharing this. Yes. With people because it feels kind of shameful. Especially the routine piece. Like I hear people say like, yeah, I like stalk my axe, but like the idea that it's like part of your daily routine, I think is something that people don't really talk about. So thanks for bringing that out. Yeah, I've totally done this. So I totally see. And if I've done it and she's done it, I think many people right. I've done it before. And I don't think it's necessarily like indicative

of you being like obsessed with this person. I think sometimes when you just do something often, it just becomes muscle memory. Right. To me it's all about like there's something about all of that. that that's like self-soothing. You know, there's something about, and right now, up until this point, it's been soothing because she hasn't found anything yet. But one day, she's going to check and she's going to see the thing that she doesn't want to see. And then it's going to stop being self-soothing.

And she at that point will probably make some kind of change. Like I don't think she's, most people, once they see the thing, they don't want to see. Or maybe they do. Maybe it like, you know, gets a little bit worse before it gets better. like let's say he posts a picture with a girl. Yeah. I don't think that would get better after he posts a picture. Right.

I think he would just, then she would just add this girl to her stocking list. Right. That's what I would have done. Right. I mean, I think it's going to shift up in some way the idea that like this doesn't, if she's introspective, perhaps,

and if she's listening to the show, hopefully she's trying to, and writing it and trying to do something different and better. But I think you'll realize that like it's right now it feels like, You know, it's like I'm checking to make sure that my hair iron is off and I go and I check and my hair iron's off so I feel better. She's checking. She's looking at his thing. There's nothing new.

So it's like soothing and it feels good to know. I also have to note that like the reason she broke up with this guy was because she was jealous and insecure and like obsessing over whatever he was doing. She writes, I was insecure, jealous to the point where it felt like I was losing myself. and that's like the reason she ended this. So it's almost like now you're kind of getting the worst of both worlds. Like you're still jealous and checking and wondering and insecure. And you don't even have like the companionship and the relationship. I do think that probably if she wants to know where this is all stemming from is there's this like big picture fear that she's had for the entire time.

How long have they been together? Four years. They wrote her together four years. That's a long time. That's a long time. So this is hard. It's only been two months. Yes.

For your relationship, it's only been two months. I think that this like jealous and secure checking thing is like leaving her system very slowly. And it's like grasping on to the last straws that it can of like whatever was the reason that she ended this. But I do think that like we were talking about kind of confronting the big picture fear. I almost feel like it might be beneficial to her to like face this fear head on of like him being with someone else, which I think has probably been a fear of hers for quite some time. I don't know if it's valid or invalid or if he's cheated on her or what's happened to why she feels so insecure about this. But I would almost maybe do like some kind of a visualization exercise or a journaling exercise on like, okay. he has a new girlfriend. She's really beautiful and smart and funny and successful and all the things that like are the worst case scenario.

Right. And like what now? Right. I'm going to live and breathe and like I'm going to also be okay. So I think she may need to just like instead of avoiding this big fear that she's had for a long time, like kind of allow herself to dig into it a little bit and trust that she will be okay. I think a lot of people and I deal with this a lot with my patients where they'll set

themselves up. Like, if this thing happens, I will not be okay, whatever it is. You know, like I can have people that are like, if my parent dies, like I will not survive that. Or if my dog dies, like, I will not survive that. Or if this person cheats on me, I will not survive it. This person doesn't text me back. Yes, even. Right. Yeah. There's just this idea of like you're telling yourself that there's this big scary thing and instead of your brain power going to being able to trust in yourself that you can like you'll be okay all your brain power goes to avoiding that thing because you've told yourself that like you won't be okay or even just like replaying the fear in your mind or like the things that you could have done to make it different yes a hundred

percent that I mean that's like the number one part of grief processing you know like that almost everybody does it is like guilt, right? Like if someone dies, well, I should have done this and I should have called the doctor and I should have been there sooner. And why didn't I say, why did I say that the last time I saw them in three weeks ago? I told them that I didn't like their, this thing or with a romantic relationship. Like I shouldn't have texted him that or I didn't. It's the first place your mind goes to when you have a negative emotion is like, what didn't I do or what did I do to cause this thing to happen? Which is very normal. It's adaptive because it's like, well, I don't want this to happen again. So how can I adjust my behavior to prevent this

really painful, terrible thing from happening again? So it's very adaptive. It makes sense. It's like, if I build my house out of straw and it gets blown over, I can't just be like, I'm so sad. I have to accept that sometimes my house is going to get blown over. You have to be like, well, maybe next time I should like build it out of bricks. Yeah. And I think you've talked about this before. Like anxiety is like a helpful emotion to the extent that it can do something actually more helpful totally but I think in a lot of these situations that's just our brain survival instinct like on overdrive like I think in this situation there's nothing she can do he is they're broken up now so like he is going to move on he is going to start dating someone else and you are going to be

okay and she's been struggling with this thing even while she was in the relationship so the intention that I wrote for her is when she's like in that and I do think she needs to to break the routine, first of all. Maybe you want to find something else to check instead, to like take up that space or whatever. Is there something she can tell herself when she is like feeling that urge or when she's like about to, like let's say she blocks him,

which I think she should do. Again, even though she said she's tried that. And then she unblocks. So she, I think blocking is great. When you get the, I think within that moment where you're like getting the urge to unblock, what is the.

Right. Yeah. So what I think she could tell herself, is this feeling is what I wanted to leave behind. And follow up, my work starts here. Like all the work that she put into, I'm sure ending the relationship was really hard. It was a four-year relationship.

She put all that effort into saying, like, I want to end this because this feeling is so uncomfortable, but you still have the feeling. And the checking, she knows that the checking is like perpetuating that feeling. So I think if she could tell herself, this feeling is what I wanted to leave behind. My work starts here. And every time she gets that urge, she has to tell herself, this is the moment where I start. The breakup was the first moment.

You did that part. But like that was like probably sounds like surprisingly that didn't even do the trick. Right. Like you need to do the breakup. And then you also need to do this follow up piece of not checking because you're still, you might as well be in the relationship, which she knows she wasn't happy. I'm not telling you to go back because she knows she wasn't happy there. So, but the work that she has to do on a daily basis, just like the alcoholic has to do the work on the daily basis. Her daily basis work is,

okay, this is the feeling that I wanted to free myself from. Now's the moment. And that's the moment where you put the phone down and walk away. And the longer you don't look, like each consecutive day that you don't look, the easier the next day will be. Yes. I guarantee if you don't look, and it sounds like a long time, but if you don't look for 30 days, this will be out of your system. It won't be like a thought. I agree. Because you won't be like, oh, Instagram, email, Jason's profile. Right. Totally. And it is. Routines are hard to break, but they're also, like, once you're out of it, that thought is, it's linked right now. Right now that thought is literally linked with like whatever her routine is. It's like people that like have a coffee and

cigarettes or whatever. It's like those two things are linked together. Yeah. I mean, it kind of reminds me of like it's exactly what happens in the last scene in the social network. Do you remember that movie about Facebook? Yeah. And the last scene is like Mark Zuckerberg just refreshing his ex-girlfriend's Facebook page for like something that he invented. Right. Right. Like literally just compulsively refreshing the page. Totally. Yeah. So you can do it. You can do hard things. This is not going to be easy.

But it's like you've walked halfway through that dark tunnel by breaking up with the guy that you probably love that you dated for four years. Like, now you're just like kind of walking around in a circle in the middle of the dark tunnel. Like keep walking and you'll get to the other side. Let's play some games. Yeah. Let's do Triggered.

All right. I'll read it. Our first Triggered says, hi, Dr. Noreen and Dr. We love the podcast. Look forward to it every week. I'm writing him with a triggered scenario that happened earlier today. The background is that I was living in another country until about a month ago, and I started seeing a guy about two and a half months before I came back to the U.S. The guy and I really liked each other, but we both agreed that we wouldn't try long distance.

I believe it was the right decision, but it was still very sad, and I wish that we had longer to find out if we are really compatible. Earlier today, I was texting with a friend who was living in the place where I was dating this guy about my feelings about this guy and how I wish I could have had more time to find out if I was really compatible with him. And she said something that really triggered me. I've written out the messages below edited for clarity. So I'll be her and you could be the friend. Okay. Okay. I feel like the main thing is just adjusting to not being around him. Like Katie said, getting into or out of a relationship is always an adjustment. I mean, it wasn't a relationship. It was a something. Yeah, but like, you know what I mean. But it wasn't a relationship.

It was a thing that was just starting. Okay. So that's the end of the texts. And she goes, I'm aware that dating for two and a half months does not constitute a serious or long-term relationship. But my friend saying that made me feel invalidated and like she didn't take my feelings or the connection that I had with this guy seriously. I also feel like it was completely unnecessary for her to be so insistent that what I had with this guy was not a relationship. I was just, just, trying to say that I think I am going through the normal period of missing someone. I have a history of feeling insecure about having less dating experience than many of my friends. So maybe this is why I'm so angry about this comment.

This relationship was the best dating experience I've ever had. So I feel very hurt that she would minimize it. Maybe I'm just triggered by my insecurity, but I feel like her comment was insensitive. What do you think? Is it fair for me to be angry with her? Sincerely, sad and mad. Yeah, this is triggering, I think. I totally agree.

I also disagree with her friend. I think it is a relationship. Just because it's like a relationship doesn't mean because you haven't had an official talk where someone has said there. Every relationship you have is a relationship. Right. We have a relationship.

Yes. Right. If she cares about the guy and she's still thinking about him and she like has feelings for him, it's a relationship. I totally agree. I would be really annoyed. Especially I agree with what she said about, you know, she said it wasn't a relationship.

And she was like, yeah, well, you know what I mean. And she was like, came back with, but it wasn't a relationship. That to me is extra annoying. Right. Because at first it could have been like maybe she was just trying to say like, I don't even know. Both of those are annoying.

It's annoying when she said it the first time and it's extra annoying when she said it the second time. And especially because she's insecure about maybe not having a ton of relationship experience to her. This was like the closest she's ever come to being in love with someone. And that can happen. I believe you can fall in love with someone in two months. I totally agree.

Yeah. So this is. triggering. I don't this friend is annoying to me and they're just not validating and not empathic and like not it's like she's putting you in a box maybe I have a hunch that maybe she had like a breakup with someone that was like a super long term thing and feels like right somehow your experience is like minimizing her experience or that's a great point yeah like she's sort of projecting some sort of competition in terms of who should be more her how upset someone should be upset yeah And I think it's actually, if she were to take what this friend said, like, to heart,

I think that's actually much more damaging for her because it's sort of making her feel like she doesn't have a right to feel the way she feels, which makes you feel then judgmental of your own feelings of being upset about something. Right, which is just the last thing she needs when she's going through this. I think it's really hard to end something that's like on the up like this too. Like I'll validate that, you know, like you're just building and it's like the future is like seems so wide open and like the potential and then it's just like cut off because of distance. That's hard because there's like this whole unknown thing versus like when the relationship has run

its whole course. You're sort of like, okay, we tried this. It's been four years or whatever and it's not working and like I'm leaving knowing that I've tried literally everything to make this work. And she's just kind of like, you know, just reaching this like really great point in the relationship and just having it ripped out from under her. So everything has. as its own painful pieces. And so I validate that you have every right to be upset. And this friend is not very validating. And I could see why she's annoyed.

I think you could tell her that. You could say like I found it to be like, you know, invalidating of my feelings and minimizing my feelings when you said, you keep, you kept just insisting that it wasn't a relationship. Like that's not even really the point of what I was saying. Totally. I think this is a phone call. If this is a good friend, I think you could call her and be like, Maybe it's better if we talk because I feel like when we were texting, I was getting like a weird vibe from you and elaborate on what, how you feel.

And maybe this isn't a friend you would discuss this with. Yeah, it seems like she had, I don't think this is about you. I have a feeling this is about her and just something that she, you know, maybe she went through a hard breakup and it's kind of like, well, you think your breakup is hard. What about my breakup? Or she's almost annoyed that she has something worse in her mind. Right. I could see that where like, let's say you got into something that happened with your car and your car got totaled and then your friend is complaining to you by getting like a ticket,

a parking ticket. You might be like, well, you don't know from like car issues or something. Totally. I agree. And maybe it'll open up, if this is a good friend, maybe it'll open up a bigger picture conversation where she's like, well, I feel like maybe you weren't there for me when I broke up with so-and-so and that was like a two-year relationship or I don't know. If this is a friendship really worth having, maybe a phone conversation would turn into something

really nice where you could say like, oh, I didn't realize that you had such a hard time getting over so-and-so. Like, I wish I could have been there for you or whatever. Right. I mean, I'm guessing. I don't know if that's what it is, but I have a hunch. Yeah. I think it's just like this is a really interesting kind of question, even as it pertains to

anything. Like, as I think sometimes people do have the tendency, even to themselves. I think people more often do this to themselves than their friends do it to them. So this is a unique situation in that way. But I think whenever something bad happens, I'm always like sort of torn between, well, at least it didn't happen this way. But then you kind of are minimizing your own feelings. And that happens like with people that care about you.

Maybe they want to like kind of talk you out of being upset. So they're like, oh, well, it wasn't even really a relationship. It's like, well, that's not actually going to make me feel. I know you're trying maybe to make me feel like I shouldn't be upset, but that's just going to invalidate feelings. But I do feel like people do that like you said to themselves. And like I'll do that all the time to Jeff if he's like upset about something and I'll just like I catch myself my initial feeling is like, well, this is the bright side or well, this is why it's not so bad or whatever. And then I'll have to be like, okay, this is his feeling.

And he does for whatever reason. Right. This is like when you love someone, you just kind of want to make it feel like it's no big deal. But obviously if they're upset, they're upset and they're entitled to be. Yeah. I think it's, it must be hard for you as a therapist to be like. When you're, you know, when you're hearing the stories of things. And sometimes I'm sure you hear about things that you're like, well, I wouldn't think

this was a big deal. Right. I mean, I guess that's sort of the whole concept of this game. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Totally. And I do like sometimes and I notice I do the sort of like semi-toxic positivity thing.

Sometimes when I'm like burnt out emotionally where I'm like, oh, that's not so bad because of this. Like I notice that that's not my like best therapist self coming out when I'm like burned out and I'm just like, try thinking about it this way. or whatever. Right. People don't really need to hear that. They just want to be heard and for you to say like, yeah, I can see why that's upsetting.

Although sometimes perspective is helpful. It's hard probably to know, like when, you know, when is it perspective helpful and when is it invalidating? Right. Totally. Yeah, I think my experiences allow them to say it validate first. And then once they kind of have that moment of like getting it out and feeling like I'm not crazy for feeling this way, then you can do.

the thing that's like, okay, well, like, here's another way of looking at it. Right. All right. Well, good luck. Oh, we didn't rate it. What do you think? I would say this is like a seven. Yeah, I was going to give it a seven.

Yeah. We agree on most of these, I think. Look at us. So triggeredly, instinct. We come from the same childhood, so that probably helps. Like, that's where a lot of your triggers come from. That's true. Okay.

Our next one is a voicemail. I really like this one. Let's play it. Hi, it's Jordana. And Dr. Naomi, I have a triggered scenario from you, and I would especially like Dr. Naomi's point of view on this. So my therapist obviously has a late cancellation policy, which I totally understand the need for. But a few weeks ago, I canceled an appointment the night before because I was sick, and she informed me that she'd have to charge me the late fee because I had already used one freebie this year. And then yesterday, about an hour before my appointment with her, she canceled on me because she was trying to figure out some things with my insurance and she wasn't able to sort it out before my appointment.

And so I totally understand that it's a little bit different because she didn't know if she would get paid for my session for my insurance. But it still feels really unfair that because she was the one canceling it, it was totally fine for her to cancel it an hour before when it was due to some administrative issue that she wasn't able to figure out. And I think the biggest trigger for me is that it just seems a little bit unfair. And also, I understand the need for canceling appointments last minute. I know that things come up. I've been seeing her for about six years, and I'm not someone that has a history of not showing up for appointments or canceling last minute. So I just feel like I should be offered a little bit of grace.

And in return, I have no problem giving her a little bit of grace. And again, just double standards or something that really kind of irritate me. So I am wondering how triggered I can be. Thank you. Bye. All right. It's funny because I do, I mean, I obviously deal with this type of thing frequently, people canceling and how much notice they give and then how many times they've canceled

in the past and is this a pattern or is this like a one-off and how do you sort of deal with that? Do you charge a cancellation fee? Well, my policy is 24 hours. Okay. But to be honest, me enforcing that policy is very different depending on the circumstance. Like if someone has an appointment and then they're like, I'm like violently vomiting, I'm kind of like, well, on top of you violently vomiting, you also don't need to pay or be stressed about. Right. Like now you have to pay $250 to like be violently vomiting and not get a therapy session. So like I totally get that every situation is different.

And the fact that she canceled like the night before instead of an outlet, to me personally there's a different like yes, my cancellation policy is 24 hours. It gives me time to see if there's somebody else. And I have a list of people that are waiting for cancellation. So like that would be annoying if it's like an hour before. And there's no way I'm going to get somebody to fill that time. The night before I could see it's like more notice than an hour before, which is frustrating.

for someone who's planned their day around it, and she's like planning on going to this therapy session, therapist cancels it an hour before. Right. That's annoying. Have you ever done that? Not unless it's an extreme emergency. And to be honest,

I do, if I cancel an hour before, I'm very considerate about that. Like, I will definitely do everything that I can to make up the session for the person. And I could see if I had just charged someone, like a week before for canceling, 24 hours before,

and then I canceled an hour before. I would have a whole conversation. Like I would acknowledge how unfair that would feel and I would do whatever I could to try to make that. Right. Especially because it sounds like the cancellation was because she didn't get her homework done. Yeah. No, I totally agree.

I had an issue like this with my, the first therapist I ever had who I stopped seeing, I had this exact issue with her. She had this 24 hour cancellation policy, but she canceled on me so many times, like day of, She'd be like my kid is sick or something like that, which was like fine. But again, she was like not open to me being able to cancel at the same period. I think at the time I wasn't as good as confronting people. So I never said anything. But I was like soothing inside.

I did feel very unfair. And that was back when I used to be more like in person too. So that was like, you're like on your way or you're getting dressed to go out the door. That is definitely annoying. I agree. I don't think there should be a double standard where I think. therapist can cancel an hour before with no ramifications, but like the patient can't. And I personally would not feel comfortable if I did that to you a week before, charged you for a session and then,

you know, canceling that an hour before. I would feel a way about it. And it's, it was the therapist's own, like she didn't get something checked in time. Like that's, I don't know. That's very. I agree. I think it's like kind of like if it's an extenuating, if they're kind of just like, oh, I forgot about the session, then like, fine. Most of the time, when people say I forgot, like, I charged them for that. So I hope they're, you know, people at their public. I forgot is not a good excuse. Right.

That's fair. Right. But I think it's kind of like, I have this thing with like a workout class. Like if you, you know, usually workout classes have a 12 hour, 24 hour cancellation policy. And if I just cancel online, I assume I'm just going to be charged. But if I call and I'm like, I was actually like really ill. Right. You never like, even if you're trying to show that, you know, it's really a circumstance beyond.

Like, what if someone had just died? Would you be like, they charge you? Right. Totally. I do think that the circumstance matters and like the context. And you have to have a level of trust with your patients that they're telling you the truth. If someone says they're sick, like I'm going to believe that they're sick unless it does end up being a thing where it's like chronic. That's when it's different.

And if she's saying, if this listener is saying like she rarely cancels. That makes a difference to me, too, as a therapist. If someone rarely cancels and then they tell me that they're sick, I'm going to believe that they're sick. And I usually will not charge that person for being sick unless they're sick, like, once a month and canceling all the time. Have you ever had someone bring up an issue with you about a policy? Not really.

I'll be honest. I'm pretty relaxed. Yeah. Like, a lot of therapists would say maybe I don't have great boundaries around that type of thing. But I really, I, I usually, you know, try, or sometimes I'll say like I'll charge someone half a session or something like that. Like I'll try to compromise to make it feel like not so crappy on their end. So like I try to maintain rapport in that way.

Like I'm not the type of therapist that's just going to like charge up your card and not mention it or like bill you without having a conversation about it. Because I know that I've been on the other side of it too. You know, like it really sucks if something comes up last minute and you have to cancel. Now you have your emergency and you have like a bill for something you didn't even get. That is really hard. Or what I'll try to do is like if I can reschedule the person, I can, you know, try to do that. I don't too often have this issue because I really try not to like, like I know how it feels to be on the other side and I don't do it unless it's really like a chronic thing. And then I think when it's a chronic thing, the person feels like, okay.

Like this is what's going to happen if I keep canceling. Yeah. So I mean, if I were her, I would have a discussion with the therapist about why she thinks it's unfair. Totally. I think honestly, I feel like these conversations can end up being really great and improve your rapport and make it feel like more of like we have a relationship. Like I actually like these conversations with patients because it feels like we're talking like a friend who cancels a brunch plan or who, you know, doesn't pay for their share of the bachelorette party gift or whatever. and you're like, now we have to talk about this and like iron it out. And I can't imagine if she's a therapist that if you bring it up to her, she'll be like, well, that sucks. This is my policy.

No, I definitely think you can talk about how you feel. And it's a good conversation for the two of you to have. And she can explain how what her rationale is. And maybe there is some other rationale behind it. I mean, the insurance company thing is annoying because that's on her. Yeah. Right. The same therapist, the last session I had with her.

We went through the whole session and then at the end of the session, she told me she's no longer taking my insurance, which included that session that I had that day. Just finished. Right. Yeah, that definitely should have been told to you at the beginning of the session. And then I could have chosen to not have the session. Right. Or like before you got there.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think if this therapist wasn't able to figure out if she was going to get paid like prior to the session, the day, you know, like the cancellation period, whatever it is, 24 hours, she probably should have given you that notice. Right. I think she should, I think therapists should have two freebie sessions. You get two late cancels. Yeah, two a year, you're saying?

I think that's fair. I can see that. I do think it matters why. If it's like I forgot, I find that to be annoying. You might get sick twice a year and maybe it happens to be on the day you have therapy. Or maybe you, you know, get some kind of emergency of flat tires. Meeting that comes up. Right.

Meeting that comes up or whatever. Yes. I think that sounds. reasonable. I totally get that. And I really think it's more about preserving the relationship and having the conversation. And I could see how it feels when she's sort of like, I'm not getting paid. So like an hour before, I'm still not doing this. I don't know. I don't take insurance. So I haven't been in this position in a long time. But I'm almost like, if it's an hour before and I have you on my schedule, I'm just going to do the session with you and like figure out if I'm going to get paid afterwards. Because I could see

how it feels kind of like talking to me is so terrible that like you're going to cancel an hour before unless you're 100% going to get paid for the session. Like I could see how that feels very transactional. Which to me is especially important like in a therapy session. That's why when the when the woman told me that she wasn't taking my insurance after the session, I'm like, don't you know that this would be like negative for someone's mental health to like now have to deal with this thing that you're now putting them in like an anxious position? Totally. And also on that note, if you're potentially going to need to discontinue therapy completely because she no longer takes your insurance, you might need a whole session to like discuss that and not like dropping that bomb at the end.

Like, okay, so bye, this is our last one. Like it's actually somewhat unethical to just kind of be like leave you with no closure, no therapist, nowhere to go from there, no like conversation about the relationship with your therapist ending. She definitely should have brought that up at the beginning of the session because you might have wanted to spend the session just talking. about like how you felt about that or like what you were going to do with that or where you were going to go next or whatever. Yeah. Right. Right. Uncle. What's what I'm saying. I think it speaks to a general larger feeling of like does this person care about me as a person, which I think is very important in your relationship with your therapist to feel like they genuinely like it's about the money,

obviously like it's your job, but it's also about like the feeling of caring for you. A hundred percent. 100% and I've had many patients that will text me and say like work was slow this week and like I really can't, you know, I can't pay you this week. This and this and this are going on. And I'll be like, come in. We'll have our session and we'll figure it out. And I guess that's a way that like I'm trusting people and I am like a pretty trusting person. But to be honest, I haven't been burned by that. Like I have people that maybe it would take them like three months to pay me, but like they're going to pay me. But I get it. For some therapists, they have. have been burned by that and they don't have trust in that and they're not willing to do that. But I guess I've been lucky or whatever that I've trusted people and I've said, come in, even if you can't pay and we'll figure it out later. Yeah. I think the therapist is very annoying, but to give her somewhat of a benefit of the doubt,

if she is taking insurance, I think a lot of the times those people have a lot more patients because they need more patients to get the same amount of money as if you're like not taking insurance. Totally. And so I can imagine maybe they feel a little bit burnt out and they have these stricter policies because they see a lot more people maybe and they're just kind of like, they need to have them in order to stay sane. 100%. And earlier in my career, when I first started, like my first, you know, probably five to seven years out of school, I was that person that was just like seeing so many patients and definitely feeling burnt out and kind of feeling like, okay, this is my policy. It's easier for me to just stick to it. And this is what I have to do. And if you don't

like it, I'm sorry, but like this is how I have to do to like get through my day and not be constantly worrying about who's going to pay and who's not and whether I'm going to get paid. And I get, I do get that perspective. So I admittedly do like you're saying, probably at this point in my career, have the luxury of having softer boundaries with people because I'm at a different point. and I'm not like working with insurance and they don't pay well and I get that. So like I am glad you brought that up and I do, you know, understand where this therapist is coming from that you do have to have boundaries a lot of times in those situations and people do get burnt a lot in these situations.

But the fact that she just canceled a week before. Yeah, I agree. Poor form. Yes. There would probably be a better way. And look, maybe she's just like, this is my policy across the board and I don't want to deviate. And I get that.

It's like the parents that are like very good disciplinarians are the ones that are like, I said if you do that again, no ice cream and like you did it again and it's no ice cream. And like that works. Right. You know, like sometimes you need to do that to maintain order in your life. So I see both sides. But yeah, this is annoying. I give us a sixth.

Yeah, I'd probably, I hope she talks to the therapist about it. I think it'll bring it down if they can have a conversation about it. But yeah, I'd agree. This is probably because of the order of events and the hour before. To me, an hour before is very annoying. Yeah. Night before is sort of annoying. Hour before is like very annoying.

Especially if you had like a lot of shit that you needed to like talk out. Yes. And you're like, people plan in their head. What am I going to talk about today? And the night before they're thinking about like getting this stuff all out. And then you're just left with nothing. And it's because the therapist may or may not get paid. And she also did.

Yeah. I give it. Right. It's her fault. agree. I think that's akin to I forgot. Right. Yeah. Personally. Let us know if you confront the therapist. I would, I would love to hear about it. It'll be like playing out my dreams of confronting my last therapist. I'm a big advocate of like the therapy space. This stuff is the best thing you could talk about in therapy. Talking about your relationship with your therapist. If you're not getting what, and this is just a

side note that I just want to put out there. If you're not getting what you're looking for in therapy, talk to your therapist about that. Like tell them. I don't feel like I'm progressing. I feel like we're talking about the same thing every week. Sometimes I don't feel validated or that thing that you said last week is like rubbing me the wrong way or that is going to bring your relationship with your therapist to the level that it probably needs to be.

And sometimes your therapist can't be a mind reader. They don't necessarily know if there are things that are working or not working for you. So I'm a big. advocate of just that's like the place to do it. They're not going to yell at you. They're not your mother. They're not your father. They're not going to scream at you. They're going to listen. They're going to be validating. That's their whole job. It's the safest place to do confrontation. Do your confrontation with your therapist in therapy. It's like the perfect place to practice it. Agreed. I love that. Give it a shot. Everyone there. Confront your therapists. Tell them you heard it.

You heard about it here. All right. That's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Murales Pucco, and Rebecca Salis McCann. Editing by Massilio Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Freedlander. Send your advice emails to Oversharing at Betches.com or leave us a voicemail at 646363-6294. Betches