Oversharing - Why Do Women Still Change Their Last Names?

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

Jordana is knee-deep in the name-change process, which spirals into an analysis with Dr. Naomi about why women are *still* doing this and why even the most self-proclaimed feminist men suddenly get real traditional when it’s their last name on the line. Meanwhile, one woman is desperately trying to figure out how to politely uninvite a new friend from her recipe club after a series of truly rancid vibe clashes, sparking a broader convo about how groups love to turn cliquey the second you look away. Elsewhere, a Betch navigating a family estrangement wants to know if she’s justified in holding a healthy boundary or if she’s about to get guilt-tripped into emotional self-sabotage. A young woman whose college years were basically sponsored by alcohol, is now stuck in a cycle of nightly wine-fueled anxiety management and intrusive thoughts, looking for an intention that doesn’t involve popping another bottle. A new mom, still rattled, seeks validation after a sketchy off-leash dog encounter that could’ve gone very differently (and not in a cute viral video way). And finally, one engaged couple is planning their wedding and realizing they may be expected to invite nine total strangers—because nothing says “our special day” like a guest list full of people you wouldn’t recognize in a lineup. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. Speaking of being Jordana Abraham, I am now going through the process four and a half years after getting married. of changing my name, not professionally. Professionally, I'm still Jordan to Abraham,

but I'm going through the process of legally changing it, like, privately to Marinelli, which feels like a little bit of a, of an identity shift in some ways. And also it's a huge pain in the ass. Oh my gosh. I will say. Because now I'm like different things on different, I'm in the middle of it. So I'm different things on different, my social security card and my license now say my new last name, but my passport still says my old last name. And I have to change, like, I haven't changed it with like the banks and the airlines. And they should make it like the common app where you just like fill it out once and everyone gets it. Sends it out to ever. They just, you just select all the things for them to inform. They should, that's a good invention.

Maybe we should do that. Do that. Somebody out there with the technology and the, although there'd be a lot of identity theft. So maybe not. But yes. Yeah, that is a pain. But I think the more interesting, aside from the pain in the ass of it, logistical is there is a, it's such a weird thing. Like, why? And it was funny because I heard you for a while, you would say I'm Jordana, Abraham. And then you start, I know, but then you a little bit started to say I'm Jordana. And then I was wondering, like, if this was like a transitional phase, right? I was going to drop the Abraham. I'm Madonna. I'm just, I'm just a one name, Jordana. Yeah.

Pop superstar. How are you feeling? Like it is a weird thing. Like this was your, it's not like it used to be you get married when you're 18, you know, and like you don't have this name that long. It almost feels like your childhood name versus your adult name probably back then. But now, yeah,

I'm 36 years old. You know, like hopefully I live a little longer than 72, but like could be halfway through my life, you know. And suddenly I'm supposed to just take on this other last name. I mean, to give a little context.

I felt like once the girls were born, I wanted to be part. I wanted to be like part of the family name. You wanted to be the Marinelli's. You wanted to be in the Marinelli's. Yeah. I didn't want to be like left out. It's hard. I remember our mom when she would write school notes back then.

We didn't really email. You actually wrote like a note. But even on an email, she would write like, you know, her name. And then she would write Naomi's mom because it was kind of like, who is this person with a different last name? So I'm sure that felt a little funky and it feels nice to just all have the same last name, but it's weird. It is weird. I mean, I kept the, so my name used to be Jordana Rosenberg Abraham. Rosenberg is our mother's maiden name.

And now it's Jordana Abraham Marinelli. So I've kept the name as a middle name because I don't have a middle name. You weirdly were the only two children that don't have middle name. I don't know why that is. Yeah. NM. On the test where you were supposed to put your middle name, like on the standardized test, if you had no middle name, you were supposed to write N, M, N, M, N. I guess you really have no middle name.

My middle name is technically our mom's maiden name, I guess. Then I did that too. I took my maiden name as my middle name. Okay. So you're the same in that way. But yeah, it's an identity shift a little bit. And especially for me, given that bike's last name is so Italian. Yeah. It feels like an even bigger shift because I'm like, I'm not Italian. Now you're Italian.

Right. Like I'm not Italian. And I think that also feels a little weird. It feels like it brings up a lot of like feminist thoughts. I think that we've had emailers write this in where it's like for me, it's more like, why do I have to deal with this pain in the ass? Kind of like take you on as an identity. I mean, that is where it came from. It really is, you know, I talk sometimes my girls will ask me like, do I have to take my husband's, you know, last name? I'm like, no, not at all, you know, do whatever you decide to do. And I think there's this little part of me that's like, let's just stop this. It doesn't.

Right. Or like some people I know will do like, they'll combine names, but then you're losing your lineage. Like both people are then kind of losing their lineage. Yeah, it's hard. But since I'm like, I, without the kids, I was kind of like, yeah, you be you. I'll be me. And then I think there's a set. Like once you have kids, then you have to figure out what name to give them.

And I mean, you could give them both. It just seems like kind of long. And then what do you do for like the next generation or their four names and then eight names? Right. And I know that there's cultures that kind of do that or cultures that do like the mother's name too. It really should be the mother's name. That's the one that's like you can prove the lineage. Right.

Well, that's why they probably do it the other way because it's like, we're not sure who the father is, but we're going to stamp it with this. And that's where we're going to go with for the rest of the life. We're making a decision on that. But yeah, I think it brings up, for me, it brings up, like, an extra layer of, like, religious, like, guilt and then feminist guilt. And I could just not do it, I guess.

It could just, like, many women don't. But I like the idea of, like, being a little bit of a family unit. And I guess I don't care enough about making it. like putting up a case for why it should be my last name. Like I just don't think that that's my cause. Right. But it is interesting. Like I think even not the most feminist of men,

but a lot of men who are very about equal rights and they really want, you know, women to be seen as equals. There's something about like taking a woman's last name. I bet you if our listeners, if you ask your partners that who are in heterosexual relationships, If you asked your partners, I don't, I don't think they'd go for it or be happy about it. Or if you said to Mike, hey, let's just be fair here.

You know, let's just put both names in a hat. I'm going to pull one out and that's going to be the one. He'd probably be like, absolutely not. Right. And you know why? I think it's partially maybe their own thing. But I think it's partially like a societal, like, emasculate thing. I think that would almost probably be the bigger thing for most men because they're

Like my wife's name. Like there's something that just feels, yeah. There's something that feels like whipped or like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's funny because and you see this like so subtly. It's so funny because in our house, in our old apartment, it used to be like the Wi-Fi name was Marinelli and the password was Abraham. Okay.

So you guys have been dealing with this subconsciously for a while. Yes. Yes. But then when we moved to our house, we got like an additional Wi-Fi network because the Wi-Fi was like bad, like a mesh system. And so we had to do. So we have an additional one that's sort of the main Wi-Fi. And it's like our address is the network. In case anyone would like to come to come here and steal our Wi-Fi.

Well, I'm not going to give you the exact password. But the password was still like the same password. So now people, so now it does. his name is not the Wi-Fi network and my name is just the password. And then when people come over and they're like, what's the Wi-Fi password? And I'm like, oh, it's the address is the network. And then the password is whatever. They're like, oh, like, I see who like runs the house here.

Yeah. And it's just, that's just the Wi-Fi password. Yes. So I can imagine if like you announce the name of the birth of your children and it was the last name, I think it would be probably a lot for even the most feminist of men to contest. end with. I would love to really, we don't have time for it today. We have a lot of emails to get to, but I would love to dig into what that is that makes that feel. And it's not, I think it's not just the feeling that he would have. It's the what other people would think. His perception of

his power in the home is what I think there is. It's, that is the issue. And it really comes down to a power struggle. Like who? Right. Who's leading this family, even though a lot of women are doing that. Yes. Yeah. It's really a weird psychological thing. I'm glad you brought it up. It is very interesting. If you are out there and you are either in a same-sex relationship, how did you decide? Or if you are a unicorn and you are in a heterosexual relationship and you use the woman's name. I would love to hear from you, how you did it, how everyone feels about it. If there is a power struggle, if you're balancing it out somehow with like a Wi-Fi name or how you guys create equality in the household. Yes. I will admit there's a part of me that

would like to see a revolution. I did it. You know, I had I had a supervisor tell me when I first, because I was getting married right around the time when I was getting my doctorate. And I had a supervisor tell me, you know, she was kind of on the same track. And she was like, do it now before you start your career or it's going to be harder. So I just listened to her and I did it early on. And I just kind of rode the wave. But if you could do it again, would you? I would think longer and harder about it.

If I were going to go back and do it again. Well, I will say I do enjoy having my, made a name as my professional name. I'd go by Gerana Abraham, like, professionally. And I actually like that that, like, sort of separates my professional life in my home life. That might have an alter ego. Yeah.

Or something. And speaking of some of the emails that we're going to do today, there is, you are kind of, there's two parts of you. There's like the part of you that's prioritizing your family and you're, you know, if you're a parent. And then there's that part of you that's at work. So it is interesting. maybe that's a way to do it, you know.

Everyone keeps their work name and then you have like a joint family name. Anyway, we could go on and on. Very interesting. If you're in this, I want to hear from you guys. What are you doing? Who is willing to start the revolution? Yes, not us, apparently. All right.

Yeah, let's do it. And yeah, if you have thoughts on this, put it in the Spotify comments or email us at oversharing at betches.com. Let's get into our show. If you guys have a voicemail, we have a voicemail this episode. If you have a voicemail, you can leave us one at 646-3636-3-6-26-2-94. Or you can email us at oversharing at betches.com. As always, you can join one of Dr. Naomi's therapy groups. How did they do that? Yeah, come find us, Naomi Bernstein.com. We love new people. I'm always, I know it's a little intimidating to show up and join a new group of people. And it is always, everyone is just so kind and welcoming.

And it is just really good practice when you kind of have your, you know, you're a little click and you have to be open and invite new people and how to show up in a place where you feel uncomfortable and learn that you can make connections in a space that often starts off uncomfy. So there's lots to be gained and learned from joining our group. So come join us. It's a really awesome community. Naomi Bernstein.com. All right. Let's get into it. I will read our first overshare.

Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, thank you for all the work you do. I always feel so grounded listening every week. I could use advice on how to handle a tricky social situation. A friend of a friend moved to my small city around a year ago and we hung out twice one-on-one before I invited her to my recipe club because she wanted to make friends in our area. We've been meeting once a month for a couple of years, so the group is tight. After her first club meeting, everyone seemed to like her.

But five months in, and the whole group, frankly, hates her. She doesn't read the room, makes insensitive comments, and overstays her welcome every meeting. I now feel a sense of anxiety before our meetings when I used to feel so calmed by this group. I could use some advice on how to handle the situation. It feels like a personality mismatch that can't be coached, but it feels extreme and rude to kick her out of the group chat. please help an exclusive beth. Oddly, I have been hearing a lot about this dynamic where somebody has a friend group, has a new friend moved to their city, they want to be nice, they want to be inclusive, they invite them in, and in some way it goes awry. Not a fit. Yeah. Yeah.

This is why I've heard this. We've gotten the email before, I think. Um, this can happen where it's not a fit and then you don't know how to get them out. Or I've heard it happen where the opposite, everybody loves that person so much that then other people start hanging out with that person without you. And then that feels like not great. And now they're forming these friendships and doing things. And maybe your work schedule doesn't match up or you have kids and they don't. And all of a sudden, like, they're best friends.

And you're like, what did I just do to myself? And it can feel like you're in like a high school click a little bit. I mean, did you see that this was now many months ago, the Ashley Tisdale mom friend group thing? No, no, you haven't. Okay. So basically she wrote like an op-ed for like the New Yorker about how she was in this mom friend group and they like kind of kicked her out. Why? I mean, she doesn't really give a reason why she just said she was like kind of iced out.

And then it was kind of came out who the friend group was and it was like these other. like other 90s, two thousand. So it was like Hillary Duff and like, I was going to say no one would really kick her out. They would just be in it for the tea at least. Yeah. But they were like other select.

It was like a Hollywood mom group. Right. Right. She was like not really in. But then it would start sparked this whole debate. It's tough, I think, because it's like you don't want to feel like you're excluding people, but also like not everyone's the right fit for every group. So I don't think it's like so black and white of like,

include everyone every time, even if you don't like them because that's polite. I don't think that's like a way to live your life. But also like don't, you don't need to be so exclusive that you're, you know, you're holding tightly onto your click. So I think it's like a little bit of a fine line. I don't think the answer is so obvious in terms of how you should be including people. Yeah. And things like this are the reason why sometimes you don't want to. do the initial including. You know, like my feeling is always like, yeah, sure, of course. But then when something like this happens and it almost could be more painful for the person

to be disinvited than it is for them not to be invited in the first place, it makes you think, well, maybe I should really think very carefully about who I invite because the uninviting is really hard. Then you're like, oh, we're in this exclusive vetting process of who can join our circle. Or we let them come for one and then we have a meeting to see if we're going to formally. It's like that feels ridiculous and very sorority rush. Yes. I don't like that.

My, I think there's two options here, right? One is you all just kind of suck it up and deal with it. And she's one person in a room. And I think this is more of like the mindfulness allowing, accepting is like, okay, she makes a comment. It's annoying. even if you're all kind of like, yeah, we know that when you have a person, they said, but she makes insensitive comments and they keep doing that, or she overstays her welcome, and they keep doing the same behavior over and over again.

There's two tracks. You can be like, okay, they keep doing the same thing. And every time they do it, I'm going to get so like almost excited by the idea that I know they do this. And here's another example of them doing it. Like it almost. They've like reinforced. I believe about them. Yes. And it's like, oh my God. And then you're like making eyes at each other. And it's like this. So that's one way that you can handle it. Or you can be like more of a subdued. Of course. Yes, I knew this. So I'm not going to really make a thing about it. When I wake up in the morning and the sun comes up, I'm not like, oh my God, I knew it. You know, I'm just like, oh, yeah, there's the sun. It rises in the morning and it sets at night. So I do.

do think one option is that and you might have to kind of get together with your friend to be like, look, this is an exercise in us like learning to tolerate small discomforts. She's probably not going to do that. We're realistic. I wouldn't do it. Well, here's why I wouldn't do that, just to counter that argument. Because then when does it end, right? Let's say the group wants to have dinner outside the recipe club.

Let's say they want to go on a group trip. Now it's like, must we invite her? Because at some point, unless you invite her to every single thing you do, you're going to like, You're going to offend her. If you go on a trip without her, if you go to go to dinner without her, if you do something, she sees it on unless you want to be like covering your ass every time and like not posting anything and not doing anything. Yeah.

Then you have to kind of have that hard conversation and just say, you know, what I would do is I think the next time she does the thing, whatever the thing is that they don't like. She stays too late. She's the last one there. She makes an insensitive comment. I would then follow up that evening with a phone call or something and say, hey, that comment that you made or this is how I feel when, and I wouldn't make it like everybody because that's a ganging up kind of thing.

I would just, you know, speak for yourself. And if others want to speak for themselves, you know, they can. You know, when you made that comment, it made me uncomfortable. And to be honest, I've been feeling like you've been, you know, you've made several comments like that. it makes me kind of uncomfortable. I feel like I'm not able to enjoy my time with the group or, you know, when I hosted, you were the last one to leave and I kind of wanted to go to sleep and I didn't know how to

handle it and I've noticed that that's happening. So I am beginning to feel like this just isn't the best match, you know, for us to, for you to continue to come to these. I'm really sorry. I'm sure this probably hurts your feelings a lot. I understand how you feel, but, you know, I, I just needed to share this with you because I'm starting to feel resentful. Yeah. I mean, I would wait until you have like the example of the thing. So then you can be like,

this is the thing versus just like nobody likes you. You're out. Right. Have you ever done this? Would you ever, do you think you would actually ever do this? I would just suck it up and deal with her. Personally, I wouldn't. But then would you invite them to everything else? No, I think maybe that's where then you can. Right. You know, then she could be like, oh, I wasn't invited to the thing. And then you can kind of address that. Right. Right. Yeah. I think the like the third option is sort of the way to, it's not like the nicest, most straightforward, most mature way to do it. But this is how I think it would play out if it was me. I would suck it up for the rest of the recipe club. I'm not going to have a confrontation and tell her she's kicked out. Maybe you're just like, we're not doing the recipe club. Maybe I end the recipe club or I don't know if it's

ongoing or if it's like seasonal. If it's ongoing, maybe I end it and then restart it a few months later. Right. That's a good like sloth. way to do this. Or I leave her in the recipe club. I have that motto for that. She's just it. She's just a person who's like not adding anything to that club. But I wouldn't invite her to other things. And if she saw on social media or through the grapevine, the things were happening without her. And then she confronted me, then I would say that. That's probably what she's going to do. I know. No judgment. I really, I do get it. I think if you've contaminated the recipe club and there's no way to do this other than that, you could just scratch it, take a few months off, and then start hanging out in like smaller groups.

And if she addresses it, then you can. I would say in moving to a new town, I'm sure you've kind of felt this a little bit too. It's like things kind of naturally, you kind of naturally try a lot of people on. And then it doesn't feel as like, for me at least, it doesn't feel as intensely like mean that I'm not invited to everything for everyone I've met. You know, you kind of like click with some people and you hang out with them more and then you hang out with them more. and you discover you don't actually click and then you stop hanging out with them. It's like kind of does be like a natural. It's interesting to be like inserted into a new bubble.

I do think there's a there is a potential that there's a little bit of like a group think kind of thing. Like once everyone starts talking about it, then you're noticing it more. Then it's like becoming more of a thing. It's like, oh, I didn't notice the sound of that like fly in the room until you pointed out the fly. and now I cannot not hear it. So I think sometimes I would be mindful of that too. Like sometimes the girls will come home or even Brooks. Like they'll be like talk about some kid to be like, oh, nobody likes him.

And I'm like, what do you mean nobody likes him? Why does nobody, nobody likes him? Right. Everyone got together and collectively decided. Right. I'm like, but you've heard that before. Like you've heard in elementary school or middle school like, yeah, nobody likes her. It's like, hold on a minute.

What did she do? Why does nobody like her? Like, what are the offenses? And how did we all decide that nobody likes her? So I do think there's a little bit here of like, there's a little bit of an in-group, out-group. There's like a motivation. Right. In some ways to find the thing to not like about this person. Because there's nothing in this email other than she makes insensitive comments. That's something you can lean on. And she's, She overstays her welcome. Nothing here seems like crazy. So I would just be aware of like maybe it's because you're all talking and they're clearly all talking about it. Everyone frankly hates her. So I think there might be a little bit of like just a churning up of. And if you change the words you use to describe it, it does make it sound less exclusionary. She's not a great fit for the group. She doesn't really vibe with the group. I think is a real thing, not like a mean. thing. No, I get it. It might just be literally like she's not vibing. I would just be aware of like that you could be churning that up. The group could be churning that up a little bit rather than if she makes one weird comment, you could all just pretend you didn't hear it and move on with your day. But I get it, especially like you said, if they want to do stuff outside of the group, like an overnight trip or, you know, something more than a once a month recipe group. I think there's like a middle ground for this.

All right. Let's do a betchaist. Hi, love you both. And congrats, Jordana. I'll try to keep this short. I'm a realtor. And my uncle, my mom's brother and aunt, who I was somewhat close to growing up, moved out of state. When they were preparing to move again, they called and asked if I could help by interviewing listing agents in their area and giving my opinion on who they should work with. I contacted four or five agents and interviewed them. In real estate, referrals are a huge part of the business. Most of the agents offered me a referral fee, which is standard practice. When they offered, I thanked them and said I'd keep them posted, but needed to discuss everything with my family first. For context, I received two referrals this week and will happily be paying those agents a

referral fee. One agent didn't mention a referral at all, which seemed unusual. So I asked whether he typically works with referral agreements. He seemed offended by the question, which also felt strange to me. Afterward, I sent my recommendations to my aunt and uncle and asked them to let me know what they thought. Shortly after, I received an angry call for my uncle, accusing me of trying to take money from them and advantage of the situation by getting a referral fee. The agent that didn't offer one had called him and complained. I explained that I couldn't receive a referral fee without their knowledge and consent, and the fee would come from the listing agents commission, not their pocket. And this is completely normal in our industry.

I also explain that referral agreements can actually help ensure the agent's and stays communicative and accountable. He was furious and demanded that I call all the agents and apologize for even bringing up referrals, saying I was taking advantage of my family. I told him I wasn't going to do that and felt he simply didn't understand how the business works. We didn't speak again after that. About a year later, I learned through my mom, his sister, that he had been diagnosed with Parkinson's. I wasn't invited to my cousin's weddings, his daughters, and I never heard from his wife again. He passed away about a year ago, and while the situation is sad, I had made peace with the

estrangement. Now for the current situation, I have another cousin getting married in Greece this June. I'm going with my mom and my two kids, 11 and 13. Recently, this same aunt called my mom asking where she was staying. She said she doesn't have anyone to stay with since her kids aren't attending and asked if she could stay with us knowing I and my kids would be there. My mom called me and said she feels it's the right thing to do, since my aunt has been going through a hard time after my uncle's death and his Parkinson's diagnosis before that. I told my mom that the situation with them really hurt me and that sharing an Airbnb with my aunt on this trip would feel emotionally exhausting.

She said plenty of time to reach out to repair things and hasn't. I also feel she likely wouldn't offer the same support to me if roles were reversed. I know this is a lot to unpack, but is it fair for me to draw a hard boundary and say no to stay. together. My plan had been to be polite and civil at the wedding and see how she behaves, but I don't want to spend several days sharing accommodations with her. Thoughts. The real estate thing is interesting. I didn't know about any of that. But it's weird that to me it's like even if he, even a like why why would he care if she got the commission? I guess that's not the question. But like if I was doing someone a favor to like call and interview

agents for them, that's like you're doing a part time job. Why wouldn't you be happy? if they got compensated from someone other than you? Yes. That's like hours of work. You have to find the people, call them, get in touch with them, schedule meetings, get on the phone, have the call. Yeah. Something that she would deserve a referral fee,

especially if she's like vetting them, not just being like, oh, my friend, it works there. Yes, calling random strangers that she doesn't know. I mean, look, she's also doing it because she knew she was going to get this referral fee. But it does seem, I did a little research because I'm not in this world. It does seem like this is how it works. This is what people do. I will say that's not really why she called.

I agree with her. This seems like excessive, an excessive reaction maybe, you know, to someone who doesn't understand how things work. Extremely. I mean, I just want to validate extremely excessive. Estrangement over this, not getting invited to the cousin's wedding over this. Like, this is. That does seem crazy.

And I could see her being like offended and it's just being a very uncomfortable situation after all. However, it could have been that her uncle was the one who was really angry and that her aunt didn't really like have much of a say here because it was like her uncle was like her mother's brother. I could see a situation where he's really offended. She doesn't necessarily think it's that big of a deal. She doesn't really feel like she can do anything here. Would it be a better thing to do if she had contacted you over the years or or called you since the husband died? Yeah.

But also it's only been a year. I don't think her first thought when her husband died would be to like call and get back in with his niece that they were estranged from. I could see why about a year would be the time that she might be looking to make a bid to like end the estrangement. I agree. I do think she mentioned in the email that she used to be close with this aunt. So I agree with you that it was probably the uncle because he's the one that made his

thing and got all mad. Yeah. But I see how that's hurtful too. like we had a relationship, you know, when she was young. It's almost like, you know, if this happened between you and my kids and then they're like, yeah, we used to have a relationship. And now because Uncle Mike said, I didn't do the right thing. Like I have no more relationship with Jojo and she just blindly took his side.

Right. I think she was probably more hurt by this than she maybe by the aunt even, you know, like I think she could say, oh, it's like the uncle's overreacting, but the aunt. Exactly what you're saying, like she took her husband's side, that probably did feel a little bit hurtful. And so I just, I don't think you should say no. I think it's time for a talk. And maybe, I mean, if she knows that you're going to be there and she's asking to stay there, maybe she wants to have a talk too. I think it would be weird for her to assume you weren't going to say anything. You could call her before that. Yeah. You could even call her, I think,

before your mom agrees to let her stay. Yeah. Two options. One, you can call her. I could see why you wouldn't want to have to be the one to make the first move, like on principle. She should call you before. Right. Trying to stay there. So the other option is maybe you say to your mom, this is how I'm feeling. I'm open to a conversation. And maybe your mom can kind of be like, hey, you know, I know that you and so and so haven't

spoken a really long time. Maybe you can call her and just kind of patch things up before we spend, you know, three nights together in a house and suggest. maybe kind of facilitate that conversation happening. Or I don't think this is a terrible thing for you to write an email on if you wanted to. If you don't feel like confronting it in an actual conversation and just say, hey, my mom told me, blah, blah, blah. I want to let you know.

I was really hurt by the way that everything went down. I think, you know, I don't know, however she wants to say that. We don't have to get into that. but just kind of addressing it, telling her how hurt you were and saying that you'd like to have a conversation about it. You don't want to double down on the estrangement now. If you like say no to this, you're kind of, you're keeping this ridiculous estrangement going by just kind of being like, no, we're just going to wave high and be polite at the wedding.

When if this was someone that you were close to at one point, let's stop the bleeding. You know, kind of like put on the, you know, like, let's just squeeze this, handle it, kind of deal with it so you guys can move on. I don't know what was going on with him at the time. Maybe he was already sick or cranky or something. You know, he was overreacting. It was his own thing. And she felt like she had to be loyal.

I get it. It's hurtful. But I think it's time to move on. And she might say something along those lines if, but I agree. I would sort of, that's a great idea. I would have the mom put it on her. to be like, you know, I know there's like an estrangement. Like, I think you should call her.

And then if she doesn't want to do that, then she should say somewhere else. She really held this line by not inviting you to their daughter's wedding. Like, that's big. So if you're going to hold that line, you have to then be able to be accountable for that at some point. Again, if it's, if it's true the way she's telling it, which I mean, we have no reason to not believe her. We don't know her. But like, if that's, unless there's some other argument that could be made in the other way, it does feel very.

So I don't think it's either do it or don't. I think this is a crossroads where you can lean into this, you know, it is speaking of family estrangements like this happens so often. I cannot tell you. I feel like I'd say more than half of the patients that I talk to have somewhere in there some family estrangement. Some uncle doesn't talk to some brother or some over things like this, which it's like pride thing and nobody wants to budge and nobody wants to make the first move. And some of them are

deeper and they're bigger and you try and you can. Those are different. But this seems like one where let's at least give it a shot. Mariah. It seems like a silly thing unless there was like, again, sometimes I think they're like the final straw in a series of like people who just didn't get along. Yeah, but this was like a niece and an aunt and uncle. Like that's usually not a very complicated relationship. I agree. And they don't even live in the same. Right. Good luck. Please let us know what happens. I'd love an update on this one. Yes, would love an update there. I think that would be very interesting. Let's do some intentions. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana, huge fan of the show and all things, baches. A big congratulations to you, Jodena, and your baby girls. I love spending

my Tuesday morning commutes with you too. I'm writing in about something I felt a lot of shame around lately, which is that I've recently started drinking too much alcohol. A bit of context about me is that I'm 27 years old and in a phase of my life where I have some friends who still go out every weekend and some friends who are starting to settle down or don't drink at all. With this in mind, it's been hard for me to tell how much is a healthy amount of drinking for my age group. After spending high school and most of college as a late bloomer, I never really started drinking until I was in my early 20s. I believe I still carry some of the anxiety I had around drinking when I first started with me. And I frequently feel like I need to keep drinking to feel

relaxed and cool enough for the group. If I'm being honest, my drinking has also slowly crept up on me at home as well and I end up having a few glasses of something alcoholic most nights of the week now, oftentimes when I'm alone. I can feel the drinks becoming addicting as it's hard for me to stop at just one once I start. This is something I feel a deep sense of shame about writing as I know it's not the life I want to carry with me for years to come. I've tried starting days and nights with the mindset of I'm not going to drink tonight. And I frequently end up drinking anyways. What are some tips and tricks to start drinking less?

Is there a way to decrease drinking without going fully sober? What intention should I set for myself on a night where I don't want to drink? Thanks so much again for all that you do. Best, I'll just have the one. I'm really glad you're coming to us. I'm really glad that you're realizing that there's something that feels like it's getting out of control because that is the hardest part. It's so easy to just be like,

I'm young, I'm 27. Like, that's what people do. And just make it feel really, like, just kind of convince yourself that it's normal and it's not a problem. And just like keep doing what you're doing. From what I hear, like the Gen Zs are leaning a little bit away from alcohol compared to how maybe our college experience was. I don't know if that's really the truth. Right. I haven't heard that too.

Yeah. I do think that the college alcohol culture, I wish there was something we could do about that. It just sets people up with this really abnormal expectation of what alcohol consumption should look like. Maybe just in America. I think in Europe it's different. It's not. But it's just like this like the expectation is that we drink four nights a week until we vomit or black out or like have sex with someone and then regret it the next morning. It's like, those are the days.

Good old days. Yeah. It's just like normalized. And then you wake up and you're like, wait, I don't think that's, that doesn't feel right. Right. Yeah. No, I think that. I mean, last when I was in college, that was definitely the drinking culture.

And I think it makes sense given that like, you know, people are not that confident in themselves. And it feels like, you know, you're going to meet new people or you're like exploring new relationships. and it feels like easier to kind of get out of your own head. And I think the reason that it's like that in America versus like Europe where I think the drinking age is like 16 and not really particularly enforced, it sort of goes into what she was saying where she says like, I tell myself like, I'm not going to drink tonight.

I'm not going to drink today. And I think what that can do is almost set you up where like then you have a drink and then you're like, well, I'm already drinking. I might as well have like 10, like four drinks. because I'm already here. It feels like this all or nothing thing, whereas like if she'd stopped saying, if she didn't say, like, I'm not going to drink tonight or I'm not going to do, like, I think to have this rule, it's like, okay, I've been bad.

I'm going to be bad anyway. Where I think in Europe, when it's drinking is not, is not like so prohibitive. It's not such like a taboo thing even younger. I don't think people feel the need to like go hard in the other direction, at least in some countries. I know in the UK they get pretty drunk also. But yeah, I think I had to do this too. I think around 27, 28, I had to reevaluate what like my idea of drinking was.

I didn't really ever drink alone, but I used to drink way too much. And I would, especially once I got into a relationship, kind of do things or say things that I regretted. I didn't feel like a good version of myself. And I remember talking to my therapist and he was like, when was the last time you like thought about like how much you want to drink? like how much like what is like what is your like what is your thought process and like when you're drinking is it like four like four I'll have another is it like what does one drink make me feel like what does two drinks make me feel like what does four drinks make me feel like and I think if you think about it that way it doesn't have to be all or nothing she could go out to dinner and

have one a drink or two it's easier to relate it to how each drink makes her feel and to have kind of a probably what you would suggest which is like this thoughtful meditation sense of like, okay, I had this one drink. How do I feel now? Then I have another. Do I still like what it's doing or is it, am I starting to not feel great? I think that's a great first step, right? Just to kind of bring mindfulness into it as opposed to, okay, like you said, I'm either

drinking tonight and it's balls to the wall or I'm not drinking tonight and that's the decision. I do think starting off with like, let me just see if I can control. this. But what happens is that process, what you're describing of like, let me see how one drink feels, let me see how two drinks feel. That's kind of like out the window probably after two drinks. Like I don't think you're going. You're meditatively thinking. You're right. But even maybe the next day. Yeah. Like, okay, last night I had four drinks. How do I feel today? How do I feel about how I felt last night? Yeah. I think that's a great first step. I have a hunch that she's like done.

that step already and is why she's writing to us. I think she's tried to kind of be like, yeah, this doesn't feel great. I'd like to maybe do less. And some people, and I think this is where some of that like genetic component comes in, like some people's brains click in in a different way after like a drink, which is I think what she's describing. Like some people's brains click in of like something turns on and they, any shot at being like calculated or mindful or stopping or pulling back. And people have this with sugar or carbs or gambling or like some people can go to a casino, put a couple bets down and walk away.

And some people, something just clicks in. And I, I have a hunch that she's noticing that that's, where she is. So I do think she's on the right track. I agree with you. For some people, I think what you're saying is a great first step. If you're already in the point where you're kind of like, I know this isn't good, I know that I don't really have control over it. I think doing some of the work before you have that first drink is great. A couple of things that I hear here. one, even going back to like how she mentions like she still has some of that college anxiety around drinking and needing that social lubricant like you talked about.

So I think some of this might be like a, or at least stemming from like a loneliness. I need to kind of like loosen up. I mean, doing it alone is different. But I like I remember having this feeling at a certain point where I was like, I have not, like, made out with a guy sober in, like, however long. Like, I think a lot of people have that experience when they're, like, you don't even have intimacy with people without being drunk first for like a long time.

And then it even so she might still almost have that association where she might be anxious of like how to even, I don't know, she mentioned something in there that led me to believe that maybe she might still at 27 be in this place where she's like, I don't know if I haven't had sex sober or, you know, I haven't had intimacy sober. I agree. I think the fact, it's an interesting point that you brought up is that she said she does it alone also, which to me also says, like, I kind of want to get away from myself a little bit. I want to be like distracted from being in my own head. And which helps socially, but if you're doing it alone, it's also like maybe you're anxious about something else and that's why you're drinking.

That kind of leads me to the intention that I wrote for her, which is to use those nights where she knows there's a chance that she might want to drink, but she's going to choose not to. And that's your night where you're like, okay, I'm doing research on me tonight. Like I'm going to write a research paper on myself tonight. And I'm going to go into it with like, I'm not having any drinks. And then at some point that urge is going to kick in. And then you find a little pause.

And why do we have the urge to do anything, right? Like if you walk into your kitchen right now and there's, I don't know, what your vice is, there's like a, you know, a buttery croissant on the table or something. Jars of Nutella that I bought when you guys came for your kids when you came and now you've left me with. That you see in the pantry every day. Yeah. Yes. So like there's a moment where you look at that visual stimulation.

of that big writing, that red Nutella with the brown rich background. And you like, you get that moment of stimulation and then something happens in your body. Maybe even your mouth starts to water. Maybe your brain starts to kick in of like, oh, maybe I'll have that for lunch later on like a piece of bread with some banana or whatever. Just a spoonful. Yeah. Just a spoon.

Just a spoon completely right out of the jar. Yeah. Sorry. You think I'm less of an animal than I am. No, I mean, but something happens. There's a moment where something changes in your body and that's going to happen to her, whether she opens the fridge and she sees this thing in there, she walks by or even it might not be the alcohol that triggers her.

It might be a loneliness thing or it might be a thought that comes up and suddenly she feels like a little butterfly in her stomach or a pang of something. that's that moment where I'm going to urge her to stop and pause and be like, okay, I just felt the urge. Like, there it is. I can pinpoint the urge and I'm going to pause. And maybe you like kind of look in and be like, what was that? What was the thought?

What was the feeling? And hopefully she can figure out, I don't know, what it is that she's trying to avoid. Like you said, there's something about being alone with herself that she's avoiding or it doesn't feel good. So the intention I wrote is I will find the pause, notice the urge, and be curious about what feeling I'm avoiding. Because I think there's something in there. And this can go for food or texting your ex or eating the tell out of the jar or whatever the thing is. I think you can use this to kind of be like, let me find the thing. There's a moment. There's a physical moment. And there's a mental moment.

moment. You can all use that for something, whatever your vices. Yeah, as they say. Slow it, just slow the whole thing down and be curious. Like, I'll even have patience, like almost write, you know, like you're doing a research report on Abraham Lincoln. Like, do a research report on what happens to Jordana when she is, you know, craving a spoonful of Nutella. And just before everyone gets, eat the Nutella. Eat the Nutella. It's fine. But if you notice that it's getting out of hand. Right. Well, for me, that's kind of my, it's like I have the spoonful of Nutella, but then I'm like,

how do I just have one spoonful and not half the jar? Right. Right. That's, I think. The thing is like noticing the before, like, pausing once you're, once you're, once you're, you got it on your face and your three spoonfuls in like your lost. It's a lost, it's a lost cause. So, yeah, I would just do some.

research on yourself in that moment, see what you can find. And then let us follow up. Let us know what you found. And we'll help you go from there. Yes. All right. Thank you. Let us know how it goes. Let's do some triggers. Okay. Our first one is a voicemail. Let's roll the tape. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I do have a triggered for you from my walk with my dog this morning. I live in a place that's very walkable. They're sidewalks and houses and people are out walking their dogs and kids all the time. I was walking my dog this morning. My dog is a 14-pound dog, small dog, and I also had my babies trapped on my chest. He's about six months old. So I was walking my dog and I see someone come out of their house through like a side door with an older

dog and the man walking the dog is an older guy as well. I noticed that the dog's leash is on the ground. He's not holding the leash and I'm keeping an eye on this dog to see what he's going do. And eventually this dog comes out into the yard to the sidewalk where I am, and he's kind of circling my dog. And then his dog, his dog, his dog's butt is in this dog's mouth. And this man is moving so slowly to try and get his dog. I'm like trying to step between this dog and get him off my dog and I'm also wearing my baby. And the whole thing, whatever, I'm able to get this dog off my dog. My dog doesn't seem hurt at all. There's no blood or anything like that. But then this man kind of grabs the leash and says, bad girl, and just walks away in the other direction without saying,

you know, I'm sorry, is your dog hurt? My bet. Like nothing. And I was triggered by it as someone who owns a dog and, you know, you have to see what other dogs are doing. When I got home, I told my husband about it and he, again, was pretty nonchalant about the whole thing. And I, you know, I'm set by it. Obviously, my dog's not hurt. That's not the point. But just the manners of owning a dog and not being aware of what your dog is doing or making sure they're on a leash. So how triggered can I be? Am I in the wrong? Should I just let this go and chalk it up to dogs acting like dogs? Thanks. This is triggering. Yeah, I think. No apology. Your dog is unleashed. Why is the dog unleashed? I think dogs will be dogs. Yeah, there's like an extent of that. And if he was like, trying to rain the dog in and the dog got so excited by seeing your dog and he felt sorry. Like, and he was like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like he's friendly.

Like he never, he never breaks skin, whatever it is. Right, right. It does almost sound and I'm not justifying at all because especially with the baby and feeling like you have a baby on your chest and now you have to get between two dogs, like that alone. Very, yeah. Anxiety-producing. Anxiety provoking extremely.

Like you're almost like, now I have to kind of choose between my baby. and my dog. And like the fact that the guy didn't say, when she's holding a baby, didn't run over. The dog isn't like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Yeah. It sounds like, dog are so cute. Yes. It sounds like this is kind of what this dog does. And maybe he just like nips at the fur on the butt of another dog. And this guy kind of knows that it sounds like he knows that it's not really going to cause damage. And maybe that's just what this dog does. But regardless, it sounds. It sounds like, terrifying. Even if you didn't know that, she could have like leaned down to like get in the middle and the baby could have accidentally gotten hurt. I mean, the fact that he did not acknowledge,

I'm so sorry, you know, are you okay? Even the idea that he was like moving slowly and didn't see, like he just seemed unconcerned, which I think leads me to believe that this is just what this dog does. But also like then hold the leash. That's what I'm saying. And get a fence or hold a leash. The unleashed dog with no apology combination. It's like one thing if the dog is unleashed, maybe he's usually very calm. Right.

And doesn't do anything. I've seen dogs unleashed on people's lawns. They're pretty relaxed. It's usually my dog that's running over to them to freak out. An unleashed dog that does that just does that. It's like, yeah, you can't just be rude as like a matter of principle. Totally. This is really triggering.

And I give it an even higher triggering score. just because of the physiological activation of your dog's being attacked, your baby's on your chest. Like, if that were me, all I would do is like, hold my baby and kick the dog. Like, that's the only, like, I don't know what else you could do without. What if the dog started attacking you and your baby? Right. I'd be worried about that. Totally.

This is very triggering. His response, the incidence triggering, his lack of care or a sense of urgency is very triggering. Yeah. I'm going to give this a seven. I would agree with that. And I think she could write a passive aggressive note and put it under if she sees the dog unleashed again that he should leash his. I mean, like, you can only have an unleashed dog if your dog is like 17 years old and like

and or very small and just doesn't. I don't think that's like you need to like know your dog to have an unleashed dog. If she didn't have the baby, I would definitely make it a lower score because then you're just kind of like, all right, nothing happened. I came over. I was able to like separate the dogs. But the idea that you have to intervene between two dogs that are not, you know, one of which at least is not behaving and not, you know, predictable is very scary. Right.

And even if he didn't apologize, but was like the dog's not going to hurt him, he just does like a nip at the butt. The fact that the words, I'm sorry, didn't fly out of his mouth just, I would not want to. to be married to that man. Very rude. Okay. Let's do another one. Do you want to read this one? Jordana and Dr. Naomi, I love the podcast. And congratulations, Jordana, on two beautiful baby girls. I have a triggered scenario for you. My fiance is very close with his sister-in-law and we spend a lot of time with his brother and sister-in-law. We decided we wanted to ask her to be our efficient and she said, yes. His sister-in-law has a big family. She's the oldest of five siblings and three of her four siblings are married or engaged.

Her one sister's getting married this summer in the state they live in. We do not know these people very well and we were honestly surprised to be invited and decided not to attend the sister's wedding and hoped that since we weren't attending, they would not be surprised to not be invited to our wedding. My fiance and his brother were talking about this and his brother was very annoyed that we weren't attending the wedding. Then for the part that triggered me, he told my fiance that since his wife, would be the officiant at our wedding, he had expected that we invite all of her siblings,

their partners, and her parents, which in total is nine extra people that we don't know. I was so annoyed when my fiancé told me this and even more annoyed that he told his brother that he would do it. We've only met all these people once. My fiance heard my frustrations and has since told his brother that since the wedding is so far away, we have no official guest list yet, and he can't make any promises. But is this triggering? this feels like when Joey Tribiani demanded his parents were invited to the wedding

Monica and Chandler's wedding because they wanted to see his quote performance in friends, L.O.L. I feel like this is like one of those things where it's like sometimes it's just done in families and sometimes it's not done. Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of siblings with a lot of partners. And I think you kind of almost have to do like all or nothing. Yeah.

Unless there's like a close relationship, like a really. close one. Right. This is hard. It's, it's funny. I always thought there's like no name for that. Like there's like when you think about like your, your siblings, partners, siblings. Like there's a thing there, right? Or like your siblings, partners, parents. There's a thing there, but what is that? It's just your siblings partners. It's like your brother-in-law's brother. There's a chance you could have like never met those people or met them once or there's a a chance that like you know them super well and you all hang out all the time and your friends. So it's the kind of relationship that I think can go both extremes and not be weird. It does sound like maybe there's just

different families have different expectations and policies about that. Yes, policies about that. I mean, our family is very interesting like that because there's so many of us when you were getting married, if you were to have invited all of your siblings, partners, siblings, And parents. And parents. You would have had like 30 extra people. It would have been like double my wedding. So there's a point where you have to kind of be like, am I just doing this because it feels like it's the right thing to do?

Or do I want you at my wedding because like we have a relationship and it would I want you to be there for it? These etiquette things in this, it feels like an etiquette thing. Well, I also think it's like if you're having a huge wedding, let's say we're having like a 300 person wedding, sure. maybe. But if you're having like 150 or less, these people don't need to watch me get married. The relationship is not that meaningful to that. And in this case, you know, I get the other side of it. It's like, oh, wow, that's so cool. Like my daughter is going to be an officiant at a wedding. It's such a bummer that I'm not going to be able to see it. You know, like, I could imagine if, you know, one of my kids was going to be an officiant in a wedding. I'd be like, that's so cool. Like, I would love to be there. You know, I get that.

And if it is, if you're doing it just out of principle, like if you, if it's no, really no sweat off your back to invite the extra nine people or if you are on a budget and it's tight and your wedding is small and you, there's like a real reason other than I'd rather not, then I think it's fair to not do it. if it's just like, I don't really know you and I just don't feel like having you there, then I think you could just throw them the bone. It comes back to how weddings bring up all the deeper issues in joining families. Because now I remember when I got married to Jeff, there was this thing about like the food at the wedding and if it was like kosher food.

And I'm not kosher at all, but like we have some family members that are kosher. And it was like this, that was like the issue of the wedding. And it was like it wasn't about that. It was about these two families and these two different cultures and like who's who was going to like win out in the battle of like the cultures of the family. So that seems like in their family there's a culture of like the siblings and the in-laws are all kind of invited and like were one big family kind of vibe. And, and. hers it's not and someone's going to have to be the one to give. I can see why that they invited her. There's a sense of like they would expect to be invited. I don't necessarily think that's fair. Like I don't think she was like, oh, we didn't go. So I assume they'll just assume they're not invited because we didn't go. I think and I think maybe the brother, your fiance's brother has this like fantasy that, you know, that they're all one, that his, both of his sides of his marriage are just like one big happy family, like you said. And sometimes like, that's great if that's the reality,

but you can't like force that by expecting all these invitations. I guess he feels like they, he's probably worried that they're going to think it's rude because they invited them. And in my opinion, with a wedding thing like this, I, get it if you if you're very tight on budget or if like you said it's a very intimate wedding and you can't do it i do think it my personal opinion now this is not this is just me personally i think you can go either way with this i think it's nice to kind of be like hey this is my family this is your family let's like all i'll bring all the family together even if it's just like getting to know each other it's an opportunity to all kind of feel connected like we all are all

technically family. Let's just do it if you can do it. If it feels like you don't have eight siblings. Right. But even then, like, I mean, we haven't really done this, but I do think it would be cool if like you got to know like Jeff's brother or like I got to know Mike's siblings or even just got to like get a vibe for them or, you know, like at your wedding.

It was the only time that I really. got to spend much time with Mike's family. And I like that I had that opportunity. You know, to like kind of get a glimpse into your life of like, I have a picture of someone when you go to visit his brother. Like I kind of know who it is or like what, you know, so I get the vibe of it, the feeling. I think it is a big ask. So I, I don't have a super strong opinion. But I think if you're trying to just inject love into this new relationship and marriage and wedding, you know, it can't hurt if you can do it. If it feels like a huge ask financially or otherwise, then I think it's okay to say no. Do you think it's triggering

that the brother said that he expects them that they'll be invited? Yeah, I mean, that's a bit different. I think if he phrased it the way I just did, which is like, oh, it would be really nice to like for everyone to get to know each other or it would just be like good vibes and I'd really appreciate it. So and so's parents are the best. Like you'll love. You're You would love you're like you would love them. You should invite them to the wedding. They're like, they're a great. They're great at a party. I think the saying he expects that's a bit harsh and demanding. And I wouldn't I think most people probably wouldn't respond well to that. I do think it's nine, nine extra people is a big ask. It's like right. I can also see like. Yeah. Like I don't even I don't know if my like have a barbecue and have us all over. It's kind of like. Yeah. I think that it's sort of triggering to expect. them to facilitate the meshing of all the families. It's like if you want to mesh the families, you have everyone over. Right. It has like our wedding. Yes. Our wedding has to be the place where like we're doing all these meshings. Yes. Like it's not, if it's my wedding day,

I don't need to, that's not like a something I need to factor in is like meshing in this big, big thing. If we're not already close, if we're already have a relationship, sort of like a standing relationship, I think it's different. But I could see being like, I don't need to spend $2,000 to like feel like I'm meeting someone for the first time at my wedding basically. Or the second time. I do agree with that. I think a middle ground, you know, is to say, hey, we really, you know, we're trying to limit the guest list or blah, blah, blah. But we would love to invite everybody over for something or like, let's all get together.

Or housewarming or whatever it is. Or you can throw, are they going to be at this thing? I would love to see them there at your bar. at your 4th or July barbecue. I can't wait to hang. I just, I do think that the reason why I say, like go for it is because I think when you're getting married and these power,

these are like these little mini power struggles that pop up over all. Like I kind of just keep like I think back to my wedding and there's all these little moments where it's like, here's a little moment where I wish I just said, okay, whatever. Like I just want to. to show up with the presence of compromise and giving and not like holding so tight to something that in the long run didn't matter that much. But I agree with you. If he said he expects it,

I would give it like a three and a half. I don't think it's, I mean, you don't have to do it. Sounds like she had him go, she made the fiancee go back and say, we'll see. Yeah, I'll agree. I'll even give it maybe a four. Yeah, I get that this is triggering. It's like anyone telling you what to do with your wedding, unless it was like a very close person that felt like really hurt by this. This is not a, you hurt my feelings. This is like an etiquette family expectation cultural thing. So agreed. All right.

I think we did it. We did it. Be back next week. That's our time. Great work today. Betches.