Oversharing - Why Does It Feel So Good To Be Negative?

Episode Date: June 6, 2023

Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days… Jordana is back from visiting Dr. Naomi, and while she may not have overstayed her welcome, her trip brought up some questions about hosting others. Then a listener writes in with an update on her previous email, explaining why she never got closure after her breakup – and that’s okay. Another listener writes in with an Overshare email regarding her overwhelming desire to complain about workplace stuff with the most negative person in the office. Why does it feel so good to vent negativity even when you know you shouldn’t? Next, a listener calls in with a Betchicist voicemail about maintaining contact with her ex’s mom, and whether or not it’s better to go cold turkey. They offer some intentions to an emailer who is struggling on their fertility journey. Finally, this week’s Triggered scenarios include a non-existent invite to a funeral, and a sex-noise-filled yoga class. Check out our latest promo codes here: https://betches.com/promo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. So great to be back, especially after our Memorial Day weekend.

I went to Dallas to come to Jeff's, your husband's, 50th birthday. and we had such a fun weekend, and it was so nice to have our weekend of bonding. I know. I really do love being with you. I missed you a lot when you left. Same. It was good times. So what did you think as a observer and attendee in this situation?

What was your debrief? It was such a fun party. It was so you guys really killed it. And it had such a great mix of like being like great food, great atmosphere, but then also like you made it. So I think what our family is. does best for these events is we're like terrible planning but we are really good not saying it was planned really well probably because you said you had minimal involvement in that but really good at making it really like sentimental and heartfelt and like bringing like fun you know you mean you made this

like amazing montage but like with voice overlays of like people's memories with jeff and I just thought that was like so great and I feel like that was like if I could see like our family than that peeking out through the, right, exactly, organized enough food, for sure, places to sit. That was not our,

yeah, you were doing. But I thought it came out so well. It was so great to see you guys. And also so great to see like the kids. And, you know, I was talking about this on you up too,

but it's just like, it's so funny because I don't really see them for a while. And every time I see it, so every time I see them, which is like every maybe six months or so, it feels like the kids have like gotten like a little old. like a little more mature. Like I remember when I was there last year.

I don't know. You could just sense like like Lila is now like 11. She seems more and more of a real person every time I see them. So it's very, very cool to like see. It's almost nice to get the perspective of like I haven't seen you in a while. And now I get like a whole new version of you. Right. The cool thing about watching them grow up for me.

Obviously you have a different experience. No, totally. I get that too. And I even have these little moments sometimes where I'm like, I just look at you. I'm like, something's changed here. But I could see taking six months is like a nice amount in between where it's like, all right, I get to see this progression of, you know, and it changes your relationship. You can have different conversations that you weren't able to have before.

You know, I think their senses of humor are really developing. So that's really fun. Like I don't know if you experience that, but they're trying to like, it's almost an added layer of like them trying to be funny with each other and who can. make the funniest joke. So it makes it like a fun hang. Yeah, it was just a great time all around. So, and you're a great hostess. Oh, thank you. Low key. I keep it simple, but you're going to have a place to sleep and plenty of food. That's all you need to do. Yeah. It's great job. That's it. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, we love having you. Thank you. Do you feel a little relieved now that everyone's a

little gun. I do. I mean, you know, I think, and it's funny because even like this moment of just doing this podcast with you and not having to like get anything for anyone and not having to answer questions. And we were talking about on the trip how I'm not, I don't love being like the decision maker, you know, like I'm kind of in the camp of like, all right, somebody else call here and I'll go with it. So when I'm organizing, you know, know, large groups of people and everyone's kind of looking to me to decide what's happening. Right. Like, what time are we doing this? What time is dinner? When are we going there? And you're kind of like whenever you feel like it. Yeah. So that's not my comfy place. So I'm glad that that

part's over. I really do love just having the presence of people, but I don't like organizing and organizing people and events and things like that. But I just love having everybody around. So I do miss everyone being here, but I don't miss, you know, when is this happening? Being responsible for the itinerary. Yes. No, itineraries are not my forte. I was thinking, like, you must be taught. Because you hosted not just me, but like other friends of you guys and stuff like that.

And people were coming in and going out. And I know it was like a whole revolving door. So I was thinking like, if I were you, I'd be like, all right. Like. Yeah. A lot of people reached out to me afterwards and were like, how glad are you that everyone's gone? It reminded me of, there's like a Ben Franklin quote that it says that like house guests are like fish.

They begin to smell after three days. Right. Which I always think of, which I think is like very accurate. Yeah. It's a good amount of time. Like it's fun. And then you're like by day three, you're like, okay. I start to see who you really are.

And then I want you out. Well, then it's kind of like, I don't really want to be like because when you're hosting, you're sort of in charge of everyone's needs. And now you're like, okay, like I could be in charge of less needs. now. Right. Yeah, I literally was having like dreams, but you can't really remember, but you can kind of remember like the sentiment. I definitely was having dreams of like people asking me for things and like this sense, this like feeling of just like trying to do a lot for a lot of people. I don't remember the details of it, but that was the feeling. So once it's coming into my subconscious.

Yeah. Yeah. That's when you know, time to go. Three days are up. Yeah. Well, I'm sure it you understand any listeners that write in saying how they have, you know, a guest that's being annoying and doesn't want to leave. But I wanted to share an update from a listener because you guys seem to like updates. So we got an update. If you guys remember a few weeks ago, there was someone who they were sort of like in the midst of a breakup and their boyfriend was like not really telling them if they wanted kids or not. And she was like unsure what to do because she didn't really like have any closure. And like they kind of left it big and he just kind of wasn't speaking to her.

And ended it. I think there was a piece. Was this the one where he like ended it via text message? I'll read the original email. It would be quick. Right. She wrote, I need help setting an intention as I'm trying to move on and let go of an eight year

relationship. We ended things a month ago via text. But the door doesn't feel fully shut due to the way it ended. The reason for the breakup is because he's not sure he wants kids. And while he says he has thought about a future with me, the kids thing is holding him back for making that happen, which includes moving in together. We both are not great communicators. Over the past year, I had been putting in the work and actively working on it. Last time we saw each other in person, I told him I can't wait much longer for him to decide.

We're both in our mid-30s. The way we ended that meetup made me confused as to where we stood. So a few weeks later, I reached out and asked him directly. He said he needed to be alone to get his head straight and hopefully in the coming weeks, he'd have more clarity. And in the meantime, I should do whatever I need to be happy. It's been a month with no contact, having difficult time moving on and letting go, even though I know that is what I have to do. My recurring thought patterns are, will I ever hear from him again? And if not, how do I accept eight years ending just like that

over text? Do I need closure slash how can I move on without it? And should I at some point reach out again? How long should I wait? We still have each other's things at our own homes, which I want to get back slash give back. Petty, I know. I've had some, some okay days and some many not okay days, though I have been journaling through all this. And I would love some intentions to help me get through the not okay days. Thank you, was struggling, heartbroken brecht. And then do you want to read her update? So I recall, I recall our, our advice was like to reach out to him. Right. Right. It's eight years. It's a tax message. You deserve some closure kind of thing. All right. So she writes,

Hi, ladies. I just listened to the most recent episode and her Dr. Naomi say how much she likes to hear updates. So here's mine. You answered my email below in early February and it took me a few weeks to work up the courage to reach out to him, but I did and he couldn't give me the closure I needed. He said meeting up in person would just quote continue the cycle of pain and at this point in time did not think seeing each other would be a good idea. He explained that throughout both his individual therapy as well as our couples counseling, he came to realize that our goals and compatibility either changed or were never the same. He contradicted himself in his text. And he couldn't give me what I needed and deserved. When I asked him to clarify if he had been lying the whole time, he never replied back.

So about a week later, I packed a shit in a box and mailed it to him, included a letter saying everything I needed to say, how much it hurt and felt so disrespectful to me as well as to our mostly good eight-year relationship that he could let it end via text message. Not that I was expecting to get a reply from him, but a week later, I received my stuff back in the mail, Sons, a letter back. But I'm back on the dating scene and have been kind of seeing some of the same. talking to two guys, one of whom I've not met in real life yet, but we have a date set up for this weekend, and I think I really like him. The other guy I'm still figuring out in what way I like him,

and throughout all of this, I have learned to better communicate what I want, need, and like, and learn to empower myself more. My therapist even commented in our last session, how much more confident my voice sounds. I'm not going to lie, the last few months have been so hard and trying and my healing has felt so long and hard, mainly because of how it has ended and not so much that it did. But I'm getting there little by little each day. My therapist also helped me see that the way he acted just shows how bad his avoidant attachment is. And because of this, he is hurting probably way worse than I have been feeling. And the way I tried to let it end and have been handling these last few months show how much growth I've done and worked on changing my own avoidant

attachment tendencies. Thank you both so much for the intention. And it's advice. It really helped. Thank you. A still brokenhearted, but not a struggling batch anymore. Love this update. I think she's got a lot of good mental clarity about the situation. I do think that like, although it sounds kind of like bullshit, like the idea of not wanting to see her in person, I think he should have answered her last text. And I think that he kind of owed it to her to see her in person or even do like a phone call or something like that. Yeah. I think that this is kind of messed up. But I do think that for someone who was,

clearly he was having a hard time breaking up with her. Like it was not something that he was felt able to do. And I've heard this before where it's like sometimes if you really can't, if it's really hard for you to break up with someone, like when you see them in person, you kind of like want to be back with them, even though you know that's not the best thing for either of you. I do think sometimes those people avoid seeing you precisely because they like

care about you so much and kind of. of do like value their relationship that seeing you would almost if they saw you it would almost be too hard to actually break up with you right I agree I don't think they needed to see each other but I think they needed to have like a actual conversation phone I think would have been fine the texting leaves him this ability to just not answer which you can't do on a phone call unless you're literally going to hang up in the middle of a phone call so that's the part that I thought was kind of crappy on her end. But what I love about this is that she figured out what she wanted. She asked for it and she didn't exactly get it. But then it kind of allows you,

either way, it allows you to move on. Like I say this to a lot of my patients that are dating and they text them on and they don't hear back or specifically women. If a guy doesn't ask them on a date and they're like waiting for them to ask them on a date, I think a lot of times the unknown of the thing is way worse than whatever the worst case outcome is. So she found out that he wasn't really going to give her the closure. He kind of, you know, gave her some words that probably didn't mean too much, but at least she knew, okay, I asked for the closure.

He wasn't able to give it to me. And now I can just like turn the page in my mind versus being stuck on that page of should I ask for closure. Should I, you know, should I reach out? Should I reach out? Is he going to reach out? Now you have your answer. And it sounds like that's what helped her move on.

Not that she got what she wanted, but that she realized, got all the evidence that she wasn't going to get what she wanted and was able to move forward. Right. I agree. And she's good at like, you know, accepting the loss of like what she would have currently wanted and she's getting,

I think something that might actually be are helpful. The quicker you can move through the unknown, I think the healthier your mental space is going to be. So if you're waiting for the guy to ask you out, just ask him. If you're waiting for the guy to text you, just text him. And then you could move through the unknown and move on with your life. Great. It's actually more empowering to do that. It seems like you're like losing or being like desperate or clingy, but it's actually, again, as long as you're not doing it every day constantly or not or like understanding a hint if they're not responding, I think it's much more. empowering to just ask for what you want.

If you have an email that you want to send in or an update, if we already answered your email, you can email us at oversharing at betches.com. Our overshare today is a good one. I will read it. And if you guys want to leave us a voicemail, you can call 646363-6294. Hey, Jay and Dr. Naomi. I'm between therapists right now. So oversharing has become my weekly mindfulness moment.

And I'm so grateful for all your insights. On to my question. I am someone who loves to gossip at work and always have. I feel like it's largely harmless. Something happens, people want to talk about it. We bent a little and then we all move on. But lately, I've realized that one of my closest work friends takes it to another level. She is relentlessly negative and hateful about our workplace.

And I mostly don't agree with her takes. When she switched off my team, it was like the sun came out, even though we still work closely together. That's something no one wants to hear about themselves. being with you is like a cloudy day that never ends. I have repeatedly resolved not to feed into her complaints, instead trying to just briefly respond and change the subject. The problem is, every time something happens to me that I want to complain about, I turn to her because I know she'll validate and vent with me.

And then it opens the door for her complaints again. I can't change her, but I can change me. How do I not give in to the desire to complain about workday stuff to the most sympathetic and least productive person in the building? I don't really have anyone else to vent to at work, so it feels like choosing between suffering and silence, not my strong suit, or getting sucked into her riptide. Every time I think I shouldn't send this to her. And then I just do. Please help.

Sincerely, definitely part of the problem. I love how self-aware this emailer is. Yes. I love that sign off. Definitely part of the problem. Everybody's probably part of the problem. I can relate to this totally. All right.

So what is this like? What is this feeling like, maybe you can describe this feeling of like something happens and you just need to say it to someone or get validation or what is that like where what does it feel like if you, you know, just to be able to say, okay, this person sucks. I didn't like how they acted. Maybe you could journal it out or write it and, you know, what do you think that is that makes like getting another person's ear feel so satisfying? Well, first off, I think there is a love of like a little bit of drama and gossip inside me. I would say that's one of my like, I had to think of like my not best qualities or like potentially that the qualities about myself that aren't ideal or perfect. Um, I would say I like drama. And I like that's why I like those reality shows. I like when like there's a little bit of scandal. And I think that like it feels like a little fun to talk about it.

Just like a fun thing to do. to like talk shit a little bit. Right. Good or bad, that's kind of like something I enjoy. Yeah, I think a lot of people do. There's like this, it's almost, I do wonder if they did a study and I haven't seen any. I could look it up if any of you are listening out there and you want to Google it while we're listening. Like the brain chemistry that happens during gossip, if there's like, I would imagine that there's some type of an addictive activation there around.

Right. Because it does seem, even like the way this listener is right. writing. Like there's an addictive piece. Like she knows that it's not good, but she just can't help it. Like there's something that feels too good to ignore about. Well, sometimes I'm also kind of like, okay, I have this feeling that this thing is absurd. I need this feeling to be like validated by someone else who's like agreeing with me that this thing is absurd. And then like digging in deeper. And again, sometimes it's like there's a difference between like getting your feeling validated. and I think like indulging, like being a little too indulgent.

Yes. It's almost like junk food, right? Like there's cupcakes in the office. Like you can have one. It's not like the end of the world. But like sometimes when you've eaten like crap all day, you feel kind of gross. And you're like, I like lean too deeply into this urge to do something that wasn't the healthiest for me.

So I think gossip can kind of be like that. And I think a little bit. I mean, we've talked about. bet as it's on the show before is like potentially adaptive you know like if there was like something scary going on in the tribe like yes it's adaptive to like talk to someone about it and then maybe do something about it so I think like there are there is a reason for it evolutionarily and I think a little bit of it is not a big deal like if your boss is like saying something inappropriate or saying something crazy I don't think it's like so negative to tell a coworker um tell

tell a co-worker about it, you can both kind of agree and you feel like a little less isolated that someone else is on your side. It's just a matter of when you're like digging in really deep or like and then calling that person a name and then you keep talking about it two weeks later. And then even me, if I've done that or if I'm speaking to someone who does that, I'm like, all right, this now ventures off into like a fun little thing and now ventured away from that and now kind of feels like a little gross. Right. Yeah, I agree, like going too hard and also like the repetition of it, I think can be detrimental.

Like when you find that you're saying the same things kind of over and over again and if you pay attention to your conversations with a lot of people, it's like a different shape of the same object that keeps kind of coming up and like the similar conversations that are had in different ways. And that's when I don't think it's super productive. I mean, my advice to her, honestly, is I would try to resist the urge to talk to this particular person. Because I do think it's probably good for her to recognize this as some kind of an addictive brain chemistry thing that's happening here and being able to retrain her brain to get some sort of relief without engaging in the behavior. It's like if you, you know, if you're used to drinking and that's what gives you relief from your anxiety, you know, not drinking, you can kind of learn. some other strategies to get relief from that anxiety. And I do wonder for her if there is a little bit

of this, like I need to, I'm sure there is, be validated. But I'm sure that, you know, I don't know. Either you're, we don't, we don't have any contacts. Either her point is valid and she just needs to like be able to realize that herself or it's not valid in which case then you're just seeking out this one person's like kind of twisted opinion to make you feel better about something that maybe isn't the most valid. Right. Well, along the lines of drinking, I was thinking when you were saying that, it's like, yeah, if you're trying to, like, cut back on drinking, let's say that's a negative habit

we're talking about here. Don't hang out with the coworker that blacks out every time you hang out. Go hang out with the person that also wants to have one or two drinks and then go home and be done. Like, I think you could find someone else in the office who might have, like, again, a slight interest in that indulgence that doesn't take it. it so far that they won't let it go and then you're sucked into that hole. I would just find a different person. I'm sure there's many people who would be like giving you a little something

if you were talking about this person's action and then that person would let it go. Right. And then you're having one or two drinks without the hangover of this girl calling you 15 times in a row to tell you what happened or showing up in your office with some negative drama that you don't want to hear. Yeah, I think that's great advice finding someone else. I mean, this one you'd probably laugh. at, but it's kind of like, maybe you could just try to journal it out and validate yourself, just kind of like writing out whatever it is. That doesn't sound as fun. No.

It's not. There is like really something in that. It's like a bonding thing. Yeah. I think too. Yeah. But she doesn't want to bond with this person. So like maybe you can find it.

I don't know if for her it's a bonding thing because it sounds like she's, if it was bonding, she probably wouldn't be writing in. She'd be like, this is just bonding. Great. Like, I love that. this. It's kind of a blessing in disguise that you don't like this person. And so therefore, you want to stop the bond that you feel like is being created by this. But the validation, I think, is the bigger thing. Just as a fun exercise. I agree. Find someone else to talk to,

but maybe just as a little exercise, write out whatever you think and then, like, write the response that you would like to hear from the other person. Oh, my God, totally. He's this, that. Like, just see what that would feel like to kind of be like, I know what I'm looking for, but why do why do I need to hear it from someone else when I know exactly what it is that I want to hear back? Right. I guess it wouldn't feel as satisfying because you're like, that's just me repeating to myself. Like you don't get that in-group, out-group thing. Yes. And I think what people want to hear is I have the same experience so you're not crazy for feeling this way. Yeah. For sure.

Yeah, I agree with that advice of trying to find someone else. But I just wonder as an interesting psychological experiment, like even making up a thing that somebody would say, yeah, I overheard that conversation too, or I saw that thing that he did in the meeting that was so annoying. I hate when he does that. Because you probably know within yourself everything you need to know about how you feel. My other question is,

could it be almost better for the workplace if she had a friend to talk to about this in moderation. Because I think about, we get emails sometimes, people who are like, their neighbor files a complaint about every tiny ass thing they do. Right. And to me, I'm kind of like, if that neighbor was less lonely and had like someone they lived with or a friend that they could just be like, my neighbor's so fucking annoying. And they would be like, oh, that's super annoying. Maybe they wouldn't need to get like the authority is involved. I agree. There's definitely like a bonding and like a giving a break to human resources. if you can have someplace else to complain. But I wonder, another thing is what you don't want,

which a lot of people experience is like this toxic work culture that happens when everyone's just complaining and being negative about everybody else. I think this is partially what's happening. So I would also see if you can try to inject some positivity. Like, oh, that was so sweet that this person got this report done early or that was really helpful that they did this thing. Oh, did you see that so-and-so brought in whatever? that was really great.

I really, you know, I love working here. That's so positive. Like I think injecting some positivity into the workplace could also be a good balance for what she's, I think was experiencing, which is like this toxic negative. Like this woman was like a cloud coming into her office, just shit talking, which is what she's trying to avoid. So that's a good idea if she happens to run into the other coworker. Yeah.

Or just in general, I think for anybody, even listeners out there, where you're just in general, I think for anybody, even listeners out there where their tendency is to like point out the negative and complain, try to find some stuff that you can verbalize out loud that's positive because then that is, you know, maybe that'll be a little contagious and just get people to feel more. It's almost like if you went into a new job, right? And some people probably experienced it. Started working in a new office and everyone was like, oh, this is great. Look, we have these chips in the thing.

And there's always waters in the fridge. and like it's a really great work environment. You're almost like kind of like, yeah, this is great. Like just kind of buying into the culture versus the same place that has the same chips and the same water. And they're like, yeah, all we have are chips, water. They never bring in like sandwiches. It's kind of like you have to, you know, kind of sending good vibes into the world.

And then if you do want to gossip, at least you feel like you're balancing it out a little bit by like putting some positive energy out into the workplace. place. Well, that will make you feel better. I feel like if I'm too negative, I feel like indulgently gross. And then like if you add some positivity in there, you can feel like at least your balance. Because for me, and sometimes it is just like an itch that I need to scratch. Like I just need a little bit of like a dramatic thing to happen. So I'm like less bored. Right. Yeah. I think a lot of people have this. I do think it's good self-growth to kind of recognize it and see if you can figure out what's going on underneath. That needs for value. And when you can avoid it, avoid it. If you're on a day where you just need to scratch that itch, then.

Or like you said, go into like reality TV and talk about that. Like that that'll give you some like people who are not actually know you that are kind of paid to fuel this kind of situation like a healthier outlet for it. Totally. Our Detch assist email, which is where we debate the ethical merits of both sides of a situation is next. And this one is a voicemail. If you want to leave us a voicemail, you can leave us one at 646-363-6-6-2-9-4. We've been getting a lot of voicemails. And I know Dr. Naomi and I really love them because you really get a good tone when you're here.

And we don't have to read. So extra benefit. So let's roll the tape. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I'm calling because I've been struggling with whether I should cut ties with my ex-boyfriend's mom. My ex-and-I broke up about a year ago after four years. years together. It was a serious relationship that ended with a mutual, but still really painful breakup. I was super close with his family, especially his mom. And from the beginning, his parents made it

clear that even if the romantic relationship with their son didn't last forever, I'd always be seen as family. This is a really sweet sentiment, but one that I've always been a little uncomfortable with. His mom stayed close with his brother's ex-girlfriend, and I was a witness to how uncomfortable that made his brother sometimes. Now, I'm the ex-girlfriend, and I've had to block pretty much all communication with my ex and other members of his family to deal with my heartbreak and to move on. I haven't had the heart to cut off his mom, though, and she's reached out several times throughout the past year. And each time it brings back the heartbreak.

It's a reminder that my relationship with her, and especially my relationship with her son, who I'm still missing on a pretty much daily basis, has changed. It brings up a lot of bitter sleep memories, as you can imagine. I also know that whatever I tell her, she's likely telling my ex, which I don't know if I want to be happening. In a way, my ex's mom is like my last. connection to him. I'm struggling to figure out if I should maintain a relationship with her because of this. Should I cut off entirely or keep up communication even if it's drained? Let me know what you

think. I like this email. Yeah. I think this happens a lot where especially after our four-year relationship, you obviously develop a close bond, especially if it's someone you think might be your mother-in-law or father-in-law or whatever down the road so I could see this happening, although I do think it's a little odd that when they were still together, she was already planting the seed of like, when you break up, you'll always be considered family. It's almost like she, you know, and then she was also friend, she's also maintaining a relationship with the brother's axe where it seems like this might be an issue that the mom has in terms of not being able. or somehow like not being able to get close with someone and then tolerate them not being in your

life, which is hard. I get it when you get really close with somebody. But that's just, I don't know, it's interesting. I don't, I've never thought about that really from the parents perspective of like your kid brings someone home. They're probably there a lot. They want you to be close. You do stuff together. And then whenever this other person, your child decides that they're out, they're just expected to the following day, next day, be like, that's it. Now your relationship with them is over.

Because I decided. Yeah, that's kind of like, it does feel like it's like a collateral damage, though, of a relationship. I mean, I've seen this before with, like, people who, I feel like I've seen a lot of emails, people who have, like, dogs with an ex. And they're, that's like,

I mean, I guess that's more of a, like, there's no reason the mom needs to talk to her, Whereas like if you had a dog, maybe that's could be similar. Yeah, dogs are definitely anchors in relationship. Think long and hard before you get a dog with somebody. I agree. But I think, I mean, I think she's got to like state the boundary, move on. Like, this friendship isn't natural anymore.

There's no reason it has to happen. It clearly makes her uncomfortable. And I guess even, I mean, even if she didn't, if it didn't make, her uncomfortable if she really liked it. I would say it's unhealthy. I think if I met someone and they were still speaking to their ex's mom, I would be like, are you like, it's going to be harder to move on. So and I think if she's a normal person and you tell her, maybe you call her on the phone and you say, you know, my relationship with you has meant so much to me and I'm really going to miss you, but I don't really feel like I can keep talking to you and move on from this relationship.

And it's nothing personal and I think you were great. And it's sad, but like, it's what I'm going to have to do. Yep. Agree. Completely. I think that's what it seems pretty obvious that she needs to do it. It's not working for her. It's making her sad.

It's, you know, I've always said even from the time you were 17, I've always given you the advice of like, when you end a relationship, zero contact. And that includes social media and family members and social media of family members and like all of it. Because any time you get that little reminder, it's like a breakup's like a snow globe. And then the beginning of the breakup, all the snow's floating all over the place and it's frenzied and it's crazy. And then if you just set it down on the counter, eventually it starts to fall down. But every time she sees the mother's name pop up on her phone, it's like picking up that snow globe and shaking it again. Yeah. And I think that's why breakups are so painful.

is like it's not just you don't have this person in your life it's like you don't have all the other people so to validate like the sadness she gets from that like oh like all their friends i'll never see all these like everyone that's somewhat associated with them is now like completely out of my life and the more integrated you were like for divorces i'm sure that adds an extreme extra layer like you know but the fewer things that tie you to someone the better so she's got to go yeah she's I agree. She's got to go. And I think it's good for this mother. Maybe she'll kind of start to learn that you don't want to make promises at the, you know, that are not really healthy for either one of you to start, you know, I just find it odd that like a year in or two years in no matter what happens to you guys, like we'll always be close. It's kind of like, I think it's going to be good for this mother to realize that there's some really lovely, amazing connected relationships that then have to end. And it's an interesting thing. But one of the spaces where that ends totally without your controller, say, is when someone that, you know, a family member breaks up with someone. That's hard. I mean, I've felt that a little bit with like all of our siblings and people that they've dated. And they kind of are like, here, here's my person.

Like, get close to them. And then you sort of start to get close to them. And then they're like, okay, on Tuesday, we're together. And on Wednesday, like, unfriend, they're out. No more speaking. And you're, I mean, there's no one that's been super painful. But there is this moment of like, okay, I guess that's what we're doing here. That's why I don't get close to anyone that anyone didn't.

Not until the wedding. Yeah. No, I mean, like our mom has been married a bunch of times. And I think there is like a sense of like it does feel weird. Like one day you're supposed to like welcome this person into your family and the next day. It's like they're a communal enemy. Yes. So I'm a surprised her son is like cool with that.

Like if it was if it was my mom contacting my ex, I wouldn't allow that. Right. Enough. It's just not, there's things. And it's a hard fact of life, but that's part of it. Like you can, you know, there are relationships where you feel really close. And then sometimes for different circumstances, they have to be over. And that's really hard. But you have to go through that process of being sad. Maybe you're going to cry a little bit again. Maybe the mom's going to cry a little bit again. But that's something, that process that needs to go through because you're not just going to be married to your new person with kids and be, you know, hanging out with your ex-boyfriend's mom from 10 years ago.

And listen, if the boyfriend's mom has such a big issue where she can't let go, if I were the boyfriend, I would just not introduce her to anyone until they were like about to be my wife. Right. Yes, it's true. I agree. There needs to be a comfortable distance. You're warm, I'm loving, but you're not my daughter.

and I have to, you know, she has to be aware that this relationship might not be forever and she has to be able to let it go. So yeah, she's got to go. I agree. Sover. Bye. I like the, way that you said it. So how you could say the goodby. It's not, it's been great. I really appreciate it getting to know you, but it's not healthy for me anymore. You want to read our intention segment? Sure thing. Hey, Jay and Dr. Naomi. Thanks for giving the best advice to strangers. I have a dilemma that feels a bit too personal to bring to anyone I really know, and I'd love some advice or an intention for how to work through it. My boyfriend, 33 years old, and I, 35 and a half years old, have been dating for about a year and a half, and we know we want to

get married. But I'm struggling with the when, and I'd love your input on this. Almost a year ago, when we started talking about a future timeline, I expressed that I had a hard time separating my preferred timeline from my biological timeline. We both know we want multiple kids, and so when thinking about an engagement and everything else, I start doing the math and it felt like we were making the timeline decisions on external factors versus our own terms. Since that conversation a year ago, my boyfriend and I froze embryos, big, exciting, stressful, expensive, exhausting step. I was hoping that once we did that step, I and we would be able to focus on getting excited about next steps and plan them.

The day we got our final embryo results back about a month ago, my boyfriend got laid off from his job. Now the situation is a little bit reversed. My boyfriend wants to focus on finding a new job before taking the next step of engagement and wedding planning. I understand where he's coming from and I agree. Ideally, we'd both be stably employed and able to focus on our relationship. However, my boyfriend works in tech and it can take months, especially in this crazy market, to go through all the interview rounds, negotiation and acceptance. of a job that's a great fit.

Now I'm struggling with feeling like I'm back to square one having to choose between the life we want now and the future life we want. We only have enough embryos for one kid after 38, meaning we'd have to start trying in two years max. I also want a real wedding. Those take at least a year to plan. I feel like everything is trading time or money for kids versus wedding. When I talk with my boyfriend, I feel like I turn into a nagging negative Nelly who's

listing off the worst case scenarios of how long. weddings take the plan, how long couples in their late 30s take to get pregnant, how expensive another round of egg freezing can be, and how long house hunting takes, how our careers are both variable and demanding. He's supportive and listens, but I feel alone in this anxiety that waiting to start the next step now will mean more anxiety later on when we try for kids. Am I putting too much pressure on the future versus the present? Do you have any intentions to help me focus on the positive? Please don't say what will be will be. I don't think that sounds like us.

Thanks for your insight and everything else. Betch who wants her wedding cake and to eat her baby shower cake too. I totally relate to this listener. Yeah, totally relate. I find myself doing mental math constantly. And I think that's one of the, to me, it's one of the most annoying parts of being a woman is feeling like I have to bear the brunt of the like of the clock. And like feeling like everything needs to happen in a certain timeline and really fast and like thinking three steps ahead.

Well, it does like men often seem like they are very much able to live in the moment. But they also, I think just don't think about that as much. It's not as big of an issue for them biologically. And so I think that like it creates this balance where you can feel like you're not able to live in the moment. where you're nagging someone about doing something, where you seem like you are like doing things for the wrong reasons, or you feel like you're rushing the person and you're making it a less pleasant experience.

But you also do are in different circumstances from the other person. So I totally relate. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and what you would advise and your intentions. Yeah. I mean, I wonder for you now that you are with Mike and you guys are like together and in it, how do you explain the difference between the anxiety about the timeline? I guess the difference for me now is that because we are the same age, my friends are overwhelmingly all in the place of having kids while his are kind of trickling into it

because for the same age, he's not like older than me, whereas women tend to do things a little bit younger than men. So I feel like it doesn't feel like to him like he's the only one. in the crew not having kids. Right. So I think he's kind of like, yeah, it's going to happen when it's going to happen. And like, I don't need to be first. Like, I don't need to be, you know.

Can that be like a contagious? Because literally the facts are the same, right? The facts about where you're at and like how old you are and how old he is and how much time you have are the same. It's an interesting thought experiment. like regardless of what stage of life your friends are at you guys your situation is the same but somehow the comparison thing makes it feel so different for the two of you yeah and it's kind of like I guess with and it comes to like she's talking about the embryos and talking about that like you're the one who

does have to go through all of that like physically like there's really not much for men to do there and so it does feel like this is going to be like a big physical challenge for me I don't want to be doing this forever and the longer I wait, the more I'm going to, the bigger physical challenge. It's going to be. And like, yeah, and like the only thing you're going to have to do was like, deal with me. Because like. Right. No, it's true. This is a perfect example in a lot of ways of what I always talk about on here, which is like when you get the things, whatever the things are that you're looking to get that you think are going to be the magic happiness. pill, then you just keep looking for the next thing. So like she has this partner. They're committed.

Committed, I mean, creating embryos together is like, very committed. They're very committed. They've created these embryos together. They're talking about marriage. She knows that he, you know, that he wants an engagement and a wedding. Like she has all the things. And now she's focusing on like the details of getting the next thing and how the timing is going to go. And if she doesn't check herself, which I think she sort of is, but she's sort of still like, the solution to this is to get him to do this all faster and then I'll feel better. My guess is, I don't think it's big picture. I don't think it's going to matter.

Like I think that when she gets that next thing, she's going to find the next thing. to want to be in a hurry to do the next thing, like getting the house or having the second kid and wanting to know the details. Well, I always wanted two kids that were this far apart in age or I always wanted, you know, a boy and a girl, or I always envisioned my kids going to this preschool or whatever it is. So ultimately, I think for someone that has this tendency to continue to find the next thing that they're seeking and, a focus on how they want to control the external environment to make themselves feel calmer. The intention that I wrote for her that I think can be useful for a lot of people is the big picture

is okay. The rest is details. So she has this partner. They've decided to spend their life together. They even have an embryo waiting to be born. He's committed to her. He wants to marry her. The rest of it is details and just keeping in mind that when I'm,

I mean, you barely can even control the big picture a lot of times. But controlling, once you have that, trying to control the details is almost like, I don't know. It's like almost taking a beautiful sunset over the edge of a boat and saying, well, I wish that there was a little bit more purple in here. You know, like there's not quite, I wish there was a little cloud that was catching some of the rays from the, you know, backside of the, it's like, all right, you have. the big stuff let's not you know focus on the nitty gritties of and this is i get it you want two kids i get that um you want a big wedding i get that too but i do think it would be helpful to tell yourself like the big picture's okay the rest is details and i think you can use that for the rest of your life um right and whatever it is that you're struggling with so okay big picture is okay i'm writing it down

for myself the rest is details Yeah, you know, like you, whatever is, even if you really want to, if you're in an earlier stage and you haven't met your person yet, you know, I think you can still use this. Like, I'm healthy. My family's healthy. This one doesn't work great for people that are going through like a chronic, you know, life threatening illness or somebody who's like has a loved one that's really, really sick or I mean, this works well for people that have the big picture stuff, health, you know, good friends, good family, aren't alone. And this person even has a little bit more than that. So I get it. I'm sure, like you said, you can relate to, like,

wanting to be the puppeteer of the details that seem so important. Yeah. You want them the way you want them. Right. So the detail, how big the wedding is, if you have a year to plan or, you know, like my sister, Alexandra, your sister from another mister,

she planned, they decided to get married. Her husband was starting business school. They just had a beautiful wedding and they planned it in like four months or something. You know, like they, when life happens, you figure it out. Right. And what's that quote about like perfection is like the enemy of progress? Oh, right. Yeah. So like, you know, if you can be happy overall and like you said, the detail and figure out the details or the details. or the details aren't exactly how you wanted them. Like,

you don't want to like spend so much time on that that you miss the point. Right. And just end up, it sounds like she's turning into this kind of like naggy, negative person that's not, you know, able to enjoy the, you know,

that she has this loving, extremely committed partner that's, that's kind of falling aside. And I want to validate you. I get it. And like you said, you've been through this. You,

you know, I think we're in this situation probably like, all right, chop, chop, where's the ring kind of thing at some point? So I get it. You want to move forward and make sure that you have abundant amount of time to do all the things within your biological clock. But you're doing everything. You can take solace in that. Like you have your embryo, you have your person. It's all the big picture stuff is there.

Right. Yeah. And it's very hard to relax. I get it. But I think like if you can figure out a way to do that, I think the intention will be very helpful. And the whole thing is just going to be a lot more fun. If you can do it that way. And that's for the rest of your life because you're going to be whether now you're living in an apartment and then you want to move to a house and, you know, you want this kind of house and it's this kind of market.

And then you get the house and then the neighbor has a pool and then you want a pool and what are the kids going to do for the site? Like there's always going to be something to want to be different if you allow yourself to, you know, be very focused on the details versus staying kind of grounded in the big picture of, I'm healthy. I have good relationships. Like those are the things that can really, oh, you can always sort of come back to. And there's, you know, I'm sure there are people out there listening that maybe aren't healthy and there's intentions that we can use for that too.

but most of you that are, it's a great time to just take some gratitude in that. All right. Let's play some games. All right. Let's do it. I'll read the first one. Hi, Dredan and Dr. Naomi, I have a triggered for you. My mom didn't invite me to my grandmother's funeral. For context, my family is not very close. And recently, this has been exacerbated by my decision to leave a job on Wall Street

in order to go back to school to get my master's in social work. On Sunday, my mom, my grandmother, had died. I asked when the funeral would be. and my mom said that they had some ideas, but nothing was finalized and that she would follow up. On Monday night, my boyfriend texted my mom, his condolences. My mom responded with a photo of the program she had printed for the funeral, noting that her and my dad were headed to the airport for a 5 a.m. flight the next day. The next day, Tuesday, I called my mom.

She said she was in Florida and heading over to clear out my grandmother's apartment. She said that the funeral would be tomorrow. I asked her if she intentionally had not invited me. She said that she had invited me when we spoke on Sunday. I said, no, you said you would follow up when you knew the details. And then she said, oh, well, I assumed you would be busy with class. Note, I took as a slight given my parents' disapproval of my choice to go back to school. I said it was kind of offensive that I wasn't invited, but that I get that she's probably dealing with a lot.

She told me that I should have followed up if I was interested. It's true. I didn't follow up. So how triggered can I be? Sincerely, griving the loss of the family I wish I had. All right. So what do you think? I think that she is projecting some of her own stuff onto this funeral thing.

When I hear the details, I think this, her mother just lost her mother. She says she's not super close already. And it seems like it's in these, this little nuanced of whether or not she told her the details or she said she'd get back to her. I almost imagine most people would just text, when's the funeral or call and say, hey, what are the details, where do I have to be, versus kind of playing this game of like, who's going to invite me or not? I could be wrong on this one because I don't know the background,

but it seems like this was just like almost like as if they're dating and she's like waiting or playing a game around like who's going to ask who out or how is this going to play out instead of just being like, hey, what are the details? She could have just jumped out at any point and asked her that. it seemed like no one really wanted low and like was that interested in finalized talking about planning like was like that interested in like getting the full plan like when her boyfriend texted her mom I feel like if she said she was heading to the airport like I would have been like

oh did you schedule the funeral yet it just doesn't seem like there was like a full follow up I could see why she'd be annoyed that the mom wasn't like the funeral is giving like just an exact date in time for the funeral if she was talking to her anyway. way, but I think it's also weird that she wouldn't ask. Right. Yeah, it sounds like they were both kind of playing games. Like who's good. I think because there was this underlying tension around the career change thing,

that maybe there's this like almost like elephant in the room kind of like tense thing and they're both sort of waiting for the other person to like make the first move happens to be around like a funeral of a close family member, which makes it so awkward. But if it was about a Mother's Day lunch or something, I could see the same thing kind of happening. Like, well, you didn't invite me. Well, you didn't tell me what time. Well, you didn't suggest a date. But it's like this big thing.

So it feels like it's worse, but it almost could be anything. Well, it could feel like if she really wanted to be there, maybe she would have asked earlier. And if the mom really wanted her to be there, I think she would have made sure that she knew. So I kind of feel like no one really wanted her to be there that badly, including herself, maybe, because I do think there would have been some sense of like, let me like really find out when this is. Like if her mom was traveling to the state, you would have to imagine it would be like fairly soon after that.

Right. And she didn't call her that night to be like, oh, so-and-so told me you're on your way to Florida. What are the details? I get why it's triggering because I do think you're right, that the mother also was kind of ambivalent about whether or not she was going to come. So that part I could see being triggering, just that like the mother didn't seem to care that much if she came or didn't come or perhaps she was testing her, you know, which would be more irritating. And I could see that being triggering.

Like how like I hate to say this because this is probably like the worst case scenario, but almost like one, like a setup. Like if you don't come. Then I can say. Yes. If you don't make the effort to come and then you don't show up, I'll forever be able to say you didn't come to your grandmother's funeral. Right. And hold it over your head. Right. I don't know. That's pretty sick. That's probably like my own. I don't know. I think there's levels on this. But I think there's levels of that. I think if she asked her explicitly, I don't think she would have like withheld the information. But I think like she didn't care enough to ask specifically and the other one didn't and the mom didn't care enough to. Or,

wasn't no one wanted her to be there again enough to make sure that she was there yes so that part's triggering but i do think there's some ownership it's your grandmother this is her mother she probably she called you the day she died i think most people are not like in their best most you know i'm talking at the beginning of the show about not liking to create plans i can't imagine how that feels when you just lost your mother like trying to coordinate who's going to be where when and make sure you're telling everybody. Usually there's like another person than the most affected person that jumps in and kind of handles those details when someone passes away. You know, like there's like a slightly removed right, you know, person that handles the details for the grieving person. So it sounds like

maybe there really wasn't that in this particular case. So I see both sides. I think they're playing like a little cat and mouse game, which is annoying. So bigger picture, I think you and your mom need to have a chat, clear the air about this career change thing and why that is creating so much tension that I think this funeral thing is a symptom of a bigger problem. If I were you, I'd let this go. I'd let it go because it's, again, it's her mother who died. And then when the dust has settled, bring up the career thing and like clearly work through whatever wedge that is clearly put into your relationship.

Yeah, I don't think this is the issue, like whether or not she told you the details, because you could have asked. And the reason why you didn't ask is because you were already feeling kind of uncomfortable. Agreed. So, yeah, I'm interested to hear an update on this if you end up having a conversation with her and how that goes. Triggered score. What do you think? I'd give it a six.

Because I think, like, just the idea of missing your grandmother's funeral and that no one really wanted you to, like, be there enough to, like, make sure you knew. Again, regardless of, even if you didn't really. want to go. Right. Here's the other thing. Like, even if you didn't really want to go, you'd like someone to feel like your mom wanted you at her mom's funeral. So I'd give it a six. Right. I'll probably go slightly lower just because I think it takes two to tango and she could have easily been like, please send the funeral details. How many words is that? To follow up one time. No one's saying like follow up seven times. Right. One text with five words, I think could have been solved this whole issue. And she probably.

would have sent it to you that second. So I'll bump it down a little bit. I'll give it a five. Okay. That's fair. Close enough. Right. Close enough. Let's do another one. Do you want to read this one? Sure. Hi, I have to start by saying I'm a huge fan of the podcast. I'm a therapist myself and Dr. Naomi, you are the kind of clinician I wish I could send all my referrals to. Thanks. And Jordana, your insight awareness and honesty is beyond helpful and refreshing. Thank you. all both for all you do. Now to my triggered scenario. I've been feeling burnout creeping up and decided to be proactive about it. I scheduled a 90-minute yoga class followed by a massage to try to give my body a reset. That sounds amazing. The massage was great, but my triggered scenario has to do with the

yoga class. It's a studio I like with a yoga instructor I really enjoy. There were maybe 12 people in the class, all female, except for one middle-aged male. This man made sexual noises the entire 90-minute class. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume there were noises of relief and decompression, not intentional noises to disrupt others, but they were so triggering to me. I almost left halfway through the class due to how uncomfortable it made it. Nobody said anything about it and the instructor kept commenting on how we should lean into discomfort. Part of me wondered if she picked up on my affect and was signaling me to have to let it go. But who knows, he even made groaning noises during shavasana.

Ultimately, I'm happy I stayed for the whole class, but I couldn't help but feel triggered that something meant to help me feel better in my body resulted in me feeling trapped in an echo chamber of sex noises. Am I justified in being triggered about this downward facing doggy style? This is so funny. I feel like everyone has encountered like a version of this person in some class. person who's like, when they get into like any kind of like position or if there's a really hard move. And it always, I totally agree with her. It always makes me very uncomfortable. And I'm kind of like, does this person know that they're like what they sound like? And it's not, I mean, I guess it's especially weird if it's a man. I've heard it from women too where you're kind of like.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So I, um, this is really funny. I have definitely. been in this position with like the two noisy person and an extra in a yoga class in specific exercise is different. There's maybe like pumping music in the background that can drown out people's grunts and groans. But I can also on the flip side. So and like sex noises is different. But a lot of times, you know, I'm into meditation and sometimes part of mindful breathing is breathing with sound. So anybody who's in one of my group therapy sessions, we start every session off with mindful exercises and a lot of them are mindful breathing. And so I'll do this thing where it's kind of like, you know, like these like kind of like breathing with noise. And sometimes when I'm in the class,

I say to myself, I'm like, this is my yoga practice. If I want to breathe with some sound, that's like part of the process. And it's like part of what. Oh my God, are you this person? I mean, I'm not groaning, but I am breathing. There's like a certain type of yogi breath where you can like breathe with like vibration in the back of your throat. Okay. So it's not I don't think what was happening here. It's not any kind of like, oh, it's not that.

It's not that. It's more of like a loud breath. But even with the loud breath, I'm kind of like, are people going to be looking at me? but what I notice happens is like sometimes if I breathe, if I like have a loud breath, then it like kind of gives someone else in the room a little permission to like breathe with sound. And then I notice that like another person will be like, okay, there's like a reason for breathing with sound and then other people start to do it. So it's almost we don't want like an orgy going on of like people like make.

I guess it depends. Like where's the line? Right. I think when there's like vocal, vocal cords, then it becomes like sexual versus just like a yeah. A breath is different than a grunt. Yes. I think.

So I think I would draw the line at like a grunt like when there's like it's like some noise behind it aside from just the moving of air in and out. I would draw that line. And that sounds like what was happening here. So I could see this being especially just in general. but like if you've had any type of like, you know, sexual trauma in your past or like anything that just feels uncomfortable around that. But I am glad that she stayed and kind of, you know, like she's like the yoga instructor was potentially passively telling her to do, you know, like just kind of relax into the lean into the discomfort of like I can't control my external environment, which is what I love about any, you know, a lot of times in yoga classes they make a whole big thing of like, don't interrelated. and you can't come late. It's kind of like, if you're meditating and someone walks in and you hear like the gentle

patter of their footsteps as they're walking through, like, that's life. You're going to have to sometimes deal with an unpleasant sound, right? As we learn from the intention segment. Yes, exactly. And that's why yoga's a perfect metaphor for life where it's like, okay, this guy's in the room, he's really triggering you. Can you stay present? Like, can you just do your thing?

So that, but that being said, I could see this being really annoying. That's why I always, I work out in my apartment. No middle-aged men grunting in your ear. Yeah, I have, I mean, I've been in that class where the person has been grunting and I've been like looking for someone to make eye contact with to be like, what is happening? Yeah. Totally.

I don't think it's like triggering so much as it's like embarrassing. for the person personally. So I'd give it a five because it's like kind of like interrupting your groove, but I think it's more like awkward for them than it is for you. Totally. I agree with that. I do think it is a great in yoga, everything that happens in that room because that's your quote unquote practice is your life practice. It's practice for the person on the subway that's like playing music without headphones. It's practice for the person, you know, in front of you in the coffee line at seven in the morning that's ordering 500 frappuccinos for their whole office or whatever. It's like practice for these annoying things that happen that you have no control over.

And can you just breathe into it, relax into it? So I'm proud of you out there, whoever you are for staying, leaning into the discomfort. Next time, hopefully he will not be there. It sounds like maybe even the yoga instructor was like encouraging him or something. I don't know. Maybe she was just trying to make the best of, the best of, you only took it as a compliment that she's doing such a good job. Right.

That he's like getting such relief out of this. Yeah. These poses. Yeah. I agree with your score on this. But I also, it's funny because it just did make me think like sometimes I want to breathe with sound and I'm like, are people going to think I'm willing? weird. I think a heavy breath is, again, acceptable in certain circumstances. I don't know

exactly what you sound like, but I'm hoping you're not that person because it will make me rethink a lot of things. Could you imagine if like I literally went, if we went to a yoga class together and I was just like, oh. I would have to, I think there's like a friend's episode of that where Phoebe gives like, she's like a masseuse and she's offering to give Monica a massage. and when she's massaging her, she's making like these, like, sex noises. And she's like, I can't give you a massage anymore because, like, you make these sex noises. So I'd have to tell you. Right.

I'd be like, I can't go to class with you because you make these. That's when you know you're comfortable with someone. All right. I think that's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Pico and Rebecca Salz McCabe. Editing by Missileo Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander.

Send your advice emails to Oversharing at Betches. or leave us a voicemail at 646363-66-662-94. Betches