Oversharing - Will I Ever Get Over Losing A Friend?

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

When a loved one is upset, what’s the best way to help them feel better? Jordana and Naomi start by discussing an article about the best ways to provide emotional support and how to start a conversation when you’re at a loss for words. They move on to this week’s Overhearing email from a listener who is grieving the end of a friendship. Next, they read a Betchicist about trying to get the most out of a family vacation. Naomi, provides an intention to a self-sabotaging listener and they end by rating some Triggered submissions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or a mental health professional. Hello and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham. And I'm Dr. Naomi Bernstein. What's up?

How's your weekend? What's going on? I'm getting my groups together. We're officially up and running on that new. group that I was starting, which is awesome. I love starting new groups. And this, this newest group that I got has a lot of oversharing listeners. And I have to say, it's just so fun. The Betches listeners are, you know, I'm getting to meet some really smart, you know, insightful women that are open. And men too, I'm opening this to men. So if any

men out there, interested in group, it's a great avenue for everybody. I'd love to have more men in my groups. But it's just, it's really fun. And I got more people than I could take. So I am going to start another group soon too. So if anyone out there is still interested or at any time, reach out to me. I'm always going to take people on the wait list and start new groups. I have to match everybody up, you know, because so everybody, you know, it's a good dynamic and a good group.

But I'm really loving it. And, yeah, it's just the new groups that are coming up. are really just fun and just watching everybody kind of interact and help one another. It's a lot of ways I've said this before. It's even better than individual therapy. And it has to do like this. We're going to talk about the article. Yeah.

And it's very group therapy is very connected to what we're going to talk about, which we're leaving the listeners a little bit hanging here. But just the idea of how integral human connection is. to our ability to find happiness on this planet. We need human connection. It's in our DNA. So group is a great place to do that. It's funny because I know you said a lot of the people that you have are from oversharing

or from like the Betches community. And I do hear this a lot where like the people who are in this community who listen to the show are really thoughtful, are really smart, have really like insightful viewpoints, not just the two of us as the host, but anyone who's listening is clearly like already interested in that. So it's great because it like, you kind of like get a filter for the kind of people that you're interacting with. You're not just sort of like joining a like Dallas Facebook group with every single kind of person in there. Like you know they have the same kind of sensibility as you. You know that they're sort of like on the same page mentally about a lot of things. So I think it

probably makes it easier even to share just knowing that you have that filter on the group. Yes. I agree completely. And I'm very, you know, just like I said, this newest group and I'm excited to see what, you know, what type of groups I can put together in the future with, you know, this community of men and women that are really very interested in introspection and open to seeing themselves and just have a really deep, you know, level of thought. And it's great. It's really awesome to see and be a part of. So if anyone else out there wants to be a part of it, you can reach out to me at Naomi. me Bernstein Psych at gmail.com. Let me know that you're interested. It might be down the road,

you know, like the groups take a while to put together. So if you reach out to me today, there might not be a group that's starting for another month or two. But if you're interested, let me know and we'll see where we can go. That's great. And the groups are based on like a certain topic or a certain. So right now, the topic that I'm doing is just inter, it's kind of the stuff that we talk about here, interpersonal relationship, mindfulness, all my groups are going to use mindfulness just because I think it's so important to kind of have that space and that steady practice and use that in your interpersonal relationship. So all my groups are going to start off with meditation, all my groups are going to have that thread running through it. But I've had so much interest in these

interpersonal relationships groups that I'm just going to start another one, just like the one that I just did because that one was full. And I'm, you know, I have a lot of people that, you know, that's kind of what people, a lot of people stress about on the day to day, even if it's, you know, co-worker relationships, roommate relationships, dating relationships. It's, you know, a lot of what a lot of people are thinking about all day. And what I love is that it's like, especially for this particular group, it's a cost-effective way to get access to you. I mean, you're not taking new patients and it's kind of like you can get access to a very good thing. therapist and other people's opinions who are going through what you're going through.

Exactly. Yeah. Well, I appreciate the kind words. And yes, it is a great way to get in to talk to me. But again, group therapy is just, it's an awesome. People don't realize it. I think it's going to start to blow up because like you said, it's more cost effective. And you're also getting so much more of a dynamic there than just you and a therapist. You get to practice the stuff that you're doing in the room. Like we have times where somebody will, I could see that they're annoyed about something somebody said, right? Because they're people and they're just, you know, not everybody feel us the same way. Yes. So we kind of, you know, we kind of dig into it or we will talk about it and how do you deal with conflict and how do you phrase something in a way? Like when you're with your

individual therapist, you just like let it fly, let loose, say whatever you want. But when you're in a group with other people, you have to do what you have to do in the real world, which is say how you feel in a way that's digestible to somebody else who's on the receiving end. So it's a great way to practice that too. Well, I love that. Repeat the email one more time for anyone who didn't catch it. It's Naomi Bernstein Sykepsych p-s-y-ch at gmail.com. Love that for you. Even though I'm going to miss making fun of the Yahoo account. Yes. This is a huge step. That's the last one. It's the last time we're going to ever again. Yes, it's over now. So you guys won't have to hear that bad joke again. Anyway, but this leads us to our next, our topic that we wanted to talk about before we got into the emails,

which was this article that I came across in the New York Times. It is called The Best Way to Comfort someone when they're sad. It's by Melinda Wenner Moyer. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. and it's basically about a topic that I thought was really interesting because I have a lot of I struggle a lot with this like kind of like when I have a friend who's going through something that I have especially if I haven't experienced it before. So if it's grief for the death of someone or like I mean I've been through breakup so that one's a little easier for me. Right. But a lot of the times if I haven't been through the situation or they get fired or there's something like in that kind of issue. I'm always like unsure of what to say. Sometimes I'm like, does this person

even want to hear from me? And then when I do, I always feel like I say something awkward and I feel so then it makes me want to avoid it more. Or I think even worse than that for me, because I like to keep it real so much is like I'll say something that I feel like is like generic thing you're supposed to say. And I don't really feel like I'm being like an authentic person. Right. And so I love this article because it was kind of like a what to do what not to do. Right. Yeah. It was great. It was like a pretty step by step guide on how to support people. And the answer that is pretty simple in some ways. But I think the issue that you're touching on is how to do it genuinely, right? It's not like, oh, wow. So sorry for your loss.

Yes, exactly, exactly. So like how to do it genuinely and have it. And that's important. And that's why I was saying before, the biggest takeaway that I got from this, or my favorite part of this article, I will say. Obviously, they talk about how validating someone's feelings is the first and most important thing you can do. And even if you haven't been through something, you can kind of put yourself in someone's perspective and just say, I can understand how horrible this feels. Or like, you might be tempted on the flip side if somebody says, like, oh, you know, like I lost my job. I could see you kind of being like, all right, well, you know, you'll find something else.

Right. You know, don't worry about it. Like, you have, you're going to be okay. You have enough money in the bank. Like, you'll be, you know, and that's not. Yeah, that's my instinct. Right. And the instinct is also like a good one because you're trying to help them see the bright

side or like make it feel not that bad. But what the article is saying, and I agree is, you have to first validate what they're saying and just show that you understand. understand and show that they're not overreacting and that their feelings are normal and that you could understand how someone could feel like that. And the reasoning behind that is what we talk about all the time on here. When our human instinct, we need each other for survival. Like human socialization, it's in our DNA that we are a species that survives in groups and clans and, you know, communities.

So if you're going through something and someone gives you the response of kind of like, you know, all right, calm down, calm down, relax. Oh my God. Chill. I have a joke among my whole friend group is like there's nothing that will like make you more enraged if you're like mad or upset about something, then someone telling you to chill. Like if you're on a customer service call and someone's like, calm down.

Like you're like, okay. Like that is the complete opposite effect. Totally. Like you said, it invalidates someone's feeling. It makes you feel like they're, they're delusionally assessing the situation. Yes. And what is that on a visceral level? That is the, you know, caveman tribe where you get that vibe from someone that they're

on the outside. You don't get it. They're weird. There's something wrong with them. They're not, you're not connecting. And so then that actually feels in our. wiring that feels dangerous. So danger ignites that whole like anxious body, tense body, activated body, which then is just a pile on to whatever you're already upset about. Because

it's like now I'm upset about whatever I'm upset about. And now my instincts are telling me not only that, but now I don't have a community. I don't have a connection. And now there's this survival instinct that activates your fight or flight danger system. So that's like a pile on, which is the exact underlying reason why someone telling you to relax is so upsetting. It's so triggering because it's sort of like, now on top of that, I don't even have somebody who's going to be in my corner if I can't get this together or if I can't, you know, figure out my way around this. So that connection, it's just about creating that connection. And then the article says the next step, after you validate someone and create that connection is then maybe you can say,

maybe you want to look at it this way or... Right. If they see, or like, like, they were kind of like, see if the person is like looking for help or if they're just looking to like talk about their feelings. Right. I wonder, because you have small kids who I'm sure get upset about things that you don't find to be a big deal. Constantly, right?

I'm sure. Yeah. Do you still do this kind of thing, even if you're kind of like, well, you know, she didn't share her ice pop. And so like, or are you like, I can understand why you feel that way. Like, do you still do that? I try. I really try. And it works.

It really works. And what my kids love, and it's funny because it works with adults too. My kids love. And sometimes I'll even have to just, like, fib it, fudge it to, like, do it. but I'll be like, you know, when I was a little girl once, I remember I was at the grocery store and I really wanted a lollipop and my mom wouldn't give it to me and I got so angry. And then they just stop and they're like, okay, you get it. Someone gets it.

Wow. Like, you understand where I'm coming from. So it works wonders with kids. If you can just kind of let them know like they're not crazy for their feelings. I don't think they get it as much if you do the psycho babble of, you know, kind of like, oh, I understand how you feel. That doesn't work as well as when I give them like a very specific example of a time that I literally felt the same way that they felt.

And most of the time I'll have to say, okay, when I was a kid, because as an adult, I'm not going to get that upset about a lollipop. But that works with friends too. If you're kind of like, you know what? I mean, maybe you told, like, why you said you have a harder time when you like literally can't relate at all? Well, yeah, because I'm kind of like, I don't really know what to say. say that will be helpful or feel, again, like real.

I don't know. I just find it like I want to, you know, you want to reach out and help them, but I'm kind of like, I don't know if I'm like the best person for helping them. I don't do this that well. But then you also don't want to be the person who's not reaching out. I think you should probably call somebody else. Call me when things are good. Not when things are bad.

People love that. Right. When people are just around for the fun stuff. But I think you can probably say something like, I can imagine how scary that must be if they lost their job or something like that. You know, like, and you probably could imagine how scary that must be, you know. Yeah. I also find like the, maybe it's because like most of this stuff has done via text that I find it so hard. Like in person, I feel like I have, I can have a much more real better conversation.

But in text, I'm kind of like analyzing everything I'm writing. And then I'm kind of like, is this coming out? out correctly. I was just going to say for you, I think you have a particular like cheese radar that like goes off. You have a sensitive like cheesy radar. So if you're saying something over text and it feels like a little too like, you know, cheesy and warm and fuzzy, you're probably like I literally can't write that. Right. I can easily, I can more easily say it. Say it. Yes. someone's face or on a phone call or something like that. So that is my preferred method of reaching out. But sometimes you're not close enough to be like, or I'm kind of like this.

I don't know if this person wants to have a whole phone call with me. Like I don't want to comfort them in the way that I feel comfortable. I want to comfort them in the way that they feel comfortable. If they're texting you, that's probably what they want to do is text you. Right. So then I'm kind of like, I don't know how like my tone is coming across. I don't know if I'm coming off is insensitive. I also don't know if I'm not sure like if they're not that up if they're like, let's say they text me that they got laid off. I'm kind of like, well, I don't want to, part of me wants to do the bright side thing because I'm like, I don't know if they're, maybe they're trying to stay positive. So I don't want to be like, I'm so sorry. That must be

so hard. If they're like, because that, you know, when I go through something bad, sometimes it's like someone kind of validating that it's bad makes me then feel worse about it. Right. And on text, it's so hard. Yeah. You want to just be like, oh, wow. that sucks. And then they're kind of, wait, like what? That doesn't, it's not, it doesn't suck that bad. Does it? Right. Right. Like, I want to know how much you think it sucks so I can support, I can sort of, yes, whatever, I can go with whatever you're feeling. Like, if you're upset, I'll validate that you could be upset. If you're not that upset, I don't want to make you more upset by telling you you should be upset. Right. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I think the article does a good job of kind of gearing. What the article is saying is, validate the feelings, you know, tell them they're not crazy for feeling that way. Whatever level of suckiness they're at is exactly what you should validate. And the other interesting little tidbit that it gives is pay attention to how your friends

support you when you're upset and that's probably how they want to be supported when they're upset. That's a great point. Like with the call, for example. Right. You know, if I called, because I usually, if I haven't, like, that's a, that's actually the perfect example. because if I have an issue, I'm always going to, and I feel close to someone, I'm always going to call them and tell them why I'm upset or like what happened.

So I can talk it out rather than text them. And so I guess that makes sense for how I prefer to do the same thing. Right. Totally. So yeah, I think that's a big part of it. And then the other, the last piece that I was noting that they put down as something that was a good strategy is what, what they called temporal distancing, which we talk a lot about on this show. So I thought it was a good thing to mention is just letting them know like, yes, this is really hard right now, but it's not going to be like this forever. And that's after the validation. Because if you just come out of the box with that, then it could feel sort of dismissive. So I think if you spend a few minutes validating and then are kind of like, I know this is really hard right now, but at some point you're going to be in a better place and it's not going to be like this forever. Right, with no judgment or anything like that.

I mean, I don't know if you watch the show Fleischman's in trouble. No. It's on Hulu. And there's the scene where the guy's daughter, like, she gets kicked out of camp because she's like, she sends, like, suggestive pictures of herself. She just got a phone and she, like, sends it to a boy. And then he shared it with all his friends. And then they, like, kicked her out of camp.

And she's, like, so upset. And I thought it was, like, the most beautiful scene where the dad, like, goes to pick her up. And he just, like, hugs her. And he's like, it's not going to let it's not going to. It's not going to be like forever. Like this isn't going to last. Yes. Okay.

And I thought it was just like a really beautiful parenting scene because there was no like judgment about what she had done. There was no like obviously like fake relatability. Right. Right. But when I was a little boy, I sent nudes to so. So I thought that was like a really great scene. This article reminded me of that scene and how like great of a tool that is for someone

even if you have nothing else to do, just the reminder that anything, anything negative is not going to, it's not going to feel like this forever. And even if you can't relate, that's just a nice thing to remind someone. And it's, and it is literally a fact. You're not going to feel like this forever. So it's a great way to support somebody. Oh, that sounds sweet. I like that. Yeah. Good show. You should, it's an interesting psychological, um, psychology kind of show, too. You should watch it. All right. I'll put it on the list. So should we get into today's emails on that? Yeah, let's do it.

Okay, I'll read the first one. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, I've been loving this podcast so much and appreciate you both. I'll get right into my issue. I'm a 27-year-old female living in Canada. Around nine months ago, I found out my best friend of over a decade had been having an ongoing affair with my other close friend of over a decade's fiance. This was only made worse by the fact that my best friend was set to be a bridesmaid in their upcoming wedding.

This had all started near a little. two years prior while my close friend was pregnant and she lied and kept this a secret to me and all of our other friends, even when a rumor had circulated about this year prior. Finding this out and all the details of the affair, frequent hookups, including the day before the bridal shower, sending photos and videos to the fiancé, completely devastated our close friend group of 13 girls. All of 13 girls, that's a lot of people to be in a very close friend group. All of the girls completely turned on my best friend immediately, the destination, was canceled, over 100 people lost their deposits, and the whole friend group was left

dealing with a soap opera-like drama. I was completely shocked and devastated by my best friends' actions, and she admittedly needed some time to process, and I admittedly needed some time to process this myself as well. Fast forward nine months, and I've spoken to my best friend only a handful of times. I'm really struggling with the loss of this friendship, but I'm finding it very hard to imagine a future for this friendship given no one else has forgiven her. And I'm not sure I can even ever trust her as a friend anymore either. However, I'm struck by my feelings of grief over losing the closest and best friend I've ever had in my life and still feel, to be honest, somewhat traumatized by the event. I struggle with feeling that it's not

fair that I should have to lose my best friend when I did nothing wrong in this situation. And I'm also grieving losing my closeness to her family through this. Will I ever get over this friendship loss and accept what's happened? Is there ever going to be a world in which I can trust my friend again and rebuild the friendship signed a sad and lonely betch? This is a tough one. This is a tough one. It also kind of reminded me of the article in somewhat of a way, but in a topic we didn't, we haven't even discussed about it yet is like, what if the friend is upset over something that they have done? Right.

Right. And it is kind of their fault, which this sounds like pretty clear. Yes. That at least to an extent. Or I guess even in the case that I gave at the Fleischman's in trouble where the girl is like, you know, had had done something that, you know, didn't do the best outcome for them. Right. We always think about it in terms of like you're, or not always, but oftentimes in terms of someone else wronging you and then you're upset, but the deeper and sometimes the, you know, harder feelings to get over when you've done something that you feel regretful about. Right.

And it's hard because I wonder in this situation if she's even having an opportunity to talk about if the, you know, the bad friend, we'll call her. Sorry, bad friend, but that's what we're going to call you today. Speaking of easing her shame, we'll just refer to her as the bad friend. So the flawed friend, I wonder if she's even had an opportunity to talk about what's going on for her with this listener. Like she said they've spoken a handful of times, did they talk about the weather? Or did they like talk about this and what happened here? I mean, I am always a fan of communication. So I think the idea that she would at least let her speak and see where she's at, if there is a huge amount of remorse, if there is a huge amount of regret, if she is working on it, makes a big difference.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, and I also like people, I do believe in redemption. I think people do make mistakes. Obviously, like, this is a huge thing. And I don't know if the friend whose husband, or fiancee, she was sleeping with, it's probably out on her, I think, fair. Right. But does that mean, does this mistake of hers mean that she should live alone and in the dark and have no contact with anyone forever? Like, is that a fair punishment for this?

And again, I think that you hit it like on the head when you said that it's really about how she thinks about this, I think, would determine if we could continue the friendship. Yes. Like what is, how is she process this? Is she kind of like, yeah, everyone's being really rude and overreacting and, um, And, you know, making excuses or, or is she kind of being real about the situation? I was going through my own crisis. I felt really insecure. I got caught up.

I lost my way, whatever. I don't know, whatever the reasonable excuse could be for this thing. Obviously, there's no, like, thing that excuses it. But I think if she comes to you real about it and she's truly regretful, I don't believe that people should. be punished forever. Totally. I don't know.

Yeah, I agree. And I think one step further, and this is for anything that you're trying to change about yourself in any way, shape, or form is what is she doing about it? So yes, I think the first step is having this conversation saying if there is a huge amount of, you know, it's hard because you don't, you never want to wish someone to be like, you know, devastated by shame. guilt and, you know, crying over their, you know, feeling so remorseful and horrible, but like you kind of... Unless they broke up with you.

That's the exception. Sorry. Very true. But yeah, I think there are moments where you need to see that in order to believe it. You know, like I have couples where they'll come in and, you know, whether it's cheating or just something that somebody's done, you kind of need to witness. the remorse and the genuine, you know, feelings of remorse that somebody has. And there's a difference between just saying, yeah, I feel bad about that. And then like really genuinely showing and outpouring of that. So I think the first step is that. And then the second step is, like anything I was going to say that we talk about when you want to make a change is,

what is she doing about it? Is she in therapy? Is she, you know, changing her lifestyle in some major way. Like I always talk about, you know, AA. So alcoholics Anonymous. Why is that so big? Why does it work? Why do people do it? One is the first thing or one of the first things you do is admit that you're an alcoholic, right? Because if you don't admit that there's something you want to change, you can't change it. And then there's this process of like consistency and constant work on it. So you're going to, it's really encouraged in your first few months, like 30 meetings and 30 days. Like you're going to go every day and you're going to pay attention to this thing that you want to change. So you can relate that to something like this where if she is the same way alcoholics feel a lot of shame and guilt about the way their alcohol has affected their loved ones,

this flawed friend has something that's gone on for her that she needs to work on and she needs to change on like a major level. Not just I'm going to say, sorry, that was bad. I shouldn't have done that, but like I'm going to do 30 meetings and 30 days, whatever that means for her. You know, like she's going to, whether it's like a mindfulness practice or she's going to be reading a book every day that that's in line with what she's trying to do or she's going to be listening or to certain, you know, podcasts or something that can help her, you know, understand why she's doing this or just go to therapy, you know, once a week, join a group one more time, like really actively working on. changing whatever it was that was the underlying cause of this, whether it was self-esteem or depression or maybe it was substance abuse, who knows, whatever it was, I think this listener asks, how can I trust her again? The proof is in the pudding. So if she's really working on it actively, that's a good way to say, okay, she really wants to change versus, yeah, that probably

wasn't the best choice, I feel really bad. Right. Yeah, that's a hugely different approach to things. And I think that, and I think that's honestly true of anything, no matter what the mistake is, kind of like, that to me is the sign of someone who could be a good friend going forward

is not someone. The ideal friend isn't a flawless, perfect person. The ideal friend is someone who, when they do make mistakes, owns up to them, tries to change them and doesn't do them again. Right. Or at least tries very hard not to. Right.

And the best way to try is to just make an active practice. That's like anything you want to do. You want to be healthier. It has to be a daily active practice. You want to be more in the moment, daily active practice. You want to eat healthier, daily active practice. So you want to make a change to your character, your judgment, whatever it is. it has to be a daily active practice. And that builds trust. Like if I have couples where someone was

unfaithful, part of the process isn't like you just say you're sorry and then the person's never supposed to bring it up again. Right. You know, part of it is every couple days, you kind of tell them, I remember what I did to you and I'm still thinking about it and I'm working and I'm like constantly working on being different. And so they know that you're not taking your eye off the prize. Because when you do, you're going to slip back. That's just human nature. These are things that you have to constantly work on. It's important to remind someone that you still feel ashamed of something.

And like you said, it feels like a weird thing to ask, but that does help you forgive someone, I think, when you know that it's not gone. It didn't. No one's pretending it didn't happen. And then what do you think of this? Because it seems like there's another thing in the email. It's not said explicitly, but sort of implied, is that this, like, looks at this, like, loyalty aspect to the friend or the friend group. And it seems like there's a pressure to, let's say her friend did all the things you said,

feels terrible, is working on herself. Then there's this other aspect of it, which is like, is it okay to stay friends with someone who hurt your other friend? Like, is there a little, there's this. And I think we were brought up with a lot of this too. Or it's like this sense of like, my enemy should be your enemy. if you are my, if you are close to me. Yeah, that's that thing we were talking about earlier,

that survival, clan, community, common enemy thing. That is part of, you know, kind of instinctual in people. So I get why this friend group is doing that. But it sounds like she was the closest to this particular person. Like that was her person within the group, her best friend within the group. And it is going to be really hard. I think she has to prepare that if she does choose to work,

on this rebuilding trust with this one friend that she might lose some other friends in the group. I think this 13 person friend group is. It's a little too big. Yeah. Anyway, it was needing to be cut. Yeah. So she may have to be willing to say, look, she's really doing everything. You know, if, and that's why it's a good thing for her, for you to say, is she really doing

the work? Does it feel genuine? Is what she's doing worth me potentially losing some other friends here? because I can't see that not happening. There's going to be some people in this group that are just going to write her off and not want to be friends with anyone who's associating with her. Yeah, and in the case of the fiancé,

I could see why that would be a healthier choice for her. And you might have to accept that. Which I agree kind of sucks for this person where she's like, I didn't do anything wrong. Now I have to lose a friend either way. But life, I guess, is not fair. And I agree that's going to make it, you're probably more strict about like, is she actually doing this work because you will be

sacrificing things by being friends with her? Yes. Yeah. And you'll have to really believe it to make it worth it. Right. And she can have that conversation. You know, they should have that conversation. You know, the two best friends.

She should say, look, I, you know, your friendship means a lot to me, but I really need to know that you're doing this in the right way because I am sacrificing these other friendships to kind of support you in your change, not just support you in your, okay, you did this, it's over, I forgive you, but like support you in like a genuine lasting change or at least like understanding, deep understanding of how you could do this to someone, which, I mean, it's pretty, it sounds pretty horrible what she did. Yeah. And she said also, I forgot to read this extra info. The affair never amounted to anything. It was just a hookup situation. So it's not even like they're now together and happy.

Okay. So she's probably having a pretty bad time. Yeah. Totally. So yeah, I think the proof is in the pudding. See what she's willing to actually do. And open communication. I think she's probably at the point where she's afraid to even talk to this friend. Like she probably feels even badly just opening up a dialogue with this person. Yeah. Like guilty. I can see that. Right. Let's do a betchaicist email. All right. Let's do it. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I'm a huge fan of the pod. I've been listening from episode one and it's become my weekly ritual. You've really helped me to work on myself over these past few months and I'm so grateful. Here's my situation. I'm going to visit my boyfriend's family in the Middle East in a couple of weeks and my boyfriend has already mentioned several times that we will be spending most of our time with his mother. This was not even how the trip was pitched to me to begin with. So I was taken a bit off guard. Originally my boyfriend said that we would go visit his family for a few

days and then we would travel around other countries in the Middle East together. He changed his mind because of how expensive flights and hotels are, but I was still expecting that we'd be spending some time just the two of us. Anytime I try to bring this up with my boyfriend, he says something like, well, I haven't been home in so long or we are going to visit them. While I understand that we're going to visit them, and I'm happy to spend time with them, we're going for three weeks, and he seems to be saying that we'll be spending all day every day with his family. I just can't imagine spending that amount of time with anyone's family, even my own. The worst part of it all is that my boyfriend and his mother really don't get along most of the time. Anytime she's come to visit us, they always get in really

big fights after an hour or so, and he just complains about her the entire time. I've saved up a lot for this trip. The flights were super expensive, and the country itself is really pricey also. I've had to limit my lifestyle a lot these past couple of months to save, and I'm concerned that I'm not going to have as good of a time if I'm constantly in the middle of drama with my boyfriend and his mom. What do you guys think? Am I being selfish for not wanting to spend all my time with my boyfriend's mother while on vacation? Should I keep trying to bring this up with my boyfriend?

And how should I bring it up if I do? Thanks for all you do, the wicked stepdaughter. Is she the stepdaughter or she the... Wicked daughter-in-law more. Yeah, wicked daughter. Almost not quite daughter-in-law. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would never spend three weeks with anyone's family, even my own.

Yeah, just three weeks. Except for you, besides me. Oh, you're always. Yeah. Three weeks is an extremely long time to spend, especially if there's like a semi-contentious relationship going on. So I totally see how she's hesitant. And I also can feel her annoyance that it was pitched to her.

It was like, it was pitched to her as this like, we'll see my parents and then we'll go travel and go to these other places. And now he's like, oh, it's too expensive. we're just going to spend three weeks where you can watch me and my mom bicker and then I can complain about her the entire time and you took off and you can pay for it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. This does sound pretty brutal. Although I have a feeling that he's not, I don't think it's going to turn out that way. I mean, if this guy is reasonable and somewhat, you know, on the same page, I don't think once he gets there, he's going to want to sit in the house with his mother for three

weeks. Like I just can't see it playing out like that. So he might just be feeling like, oh, I miss my mom and they're getting along great now because there's some distance. I don't think when they actually get there that it's going to end up like that. I can't see anyone just wanting to do that. And you have your girlfriend there and you want to spend zero alone time. So I don't think it's going to turn out like that. However, I can understand why she feels very nervous to take this trip and spend all of her money. So she has a few options, right? One is the way you're setting this up, I just, I kind of have decided that I don't think this trip is going to work for me because I just don't, this isn't, it's a lot of money for me. I don't really, you know, I thought we were going to be traveling. That was part of why I wanted to go.

Maybe it's best if you just go spend time with your mother. That's one option, right? Yeah. Good option. Yeah. I think, yeah. Fair option. Fair option. It was a, a little bit of a bait and switch. It was supposed to be a traveling trip. And now he's saying it's not a traveling trip. So she's entitled to change her mind if she doesn't want to go on it. The other option is just to kind of spell out like what would what she would need in order to make it work. You know, like I'm happy to go, but I really would like to, you know, go here for three days or four days with you alone.

Is that something you'd want to do or not? And if he's kind of like, no, I'm not willing to do that, then I think you can, you know. Yeah. If he's like, no, it's too expensive, I can't afford it. Then he's given you, again, another reason to opt out. Right. Potentially. And the third option, which I know is very scary to take, but it's kind of where I started,

which is like, I don't think it's going to be as bad as he's setting it up. I don't imagine that he's just going to want to be spending three weeks like with his mother every second of every day. and just kind of like breathing, trusting that you are going to be in control. And if you want to do your own thing for a day, I don't know where they're going in the Middle East or how, you know, whether she feels comfortable like traveling by herself or if that's an option or how that works. But to be able to say, look, I'm going to go to herself hoping that it's not going to be the way he's setting it up to be. and then saying if it is, I'm going to be able to take control of my own experience and kind of do my own thing.

Right. And could you, if you change your mind, leave after a week? Right. Like, change your flight, come back. Like, could you, I would have, if you're going to do that third option where you're like, I'm just going to suck it up and I'm going to go, I would make sure that there's like a feasible exit plan if you're truly not feeling it. Because three weeks is a long time to be like, unhappy, kind of uncomfortable and

unhappy and away from your home and feeling all of those things and away from your comfort zone because then it's like constant if you're feeling annoyed for three weeks like while you're in your apartment I feel like you're kind of like at least in your own space and you could think about other things but when your surroundings are completely unfamiliar to you I think if you go with no plan B while you're there right or like you know I would look into like if you changed your flight how much would that cost you would that be something that you'd be able to handle if you, or if you did, maybe if you convinced him to do a few, a day trip or a few days away, like how much would that cost?

Is that something that you could, even, you offer to cover if he doesn't want to pay for it while you're there? Right, right, right. Yeah, and just, you know, I agree with all that, setting up those options and even exploring, and she probably knows this, we don't know. What are her options for, like, just being able to separate and do her own thing? is that something she's interested in doing. And I guess depending on which country she's going to, it might be more feasible for her to kind of travel by herself

or do her own thing while she's there. So if that's something that's an option, then you could say, okay, if you want to be with your mom, that's fine, I'm going to travel here, I'm going to go see this, I'm going to go do that, I'm going to do my own thing. Yeah. If she's comfortable with that.

If she wants to do that. Right. This is an interesting question, I think. What do you think? because obviously like being in a relationship, you have to do things you don't really want to do all the time or hanging out with people that you maybe wouldn't want to hang out if you weren't married or dating this other person. What do you feel like is the obligatory amount of time that needs to be spent with someone else's family, just like out of respect and courtesy that doesn't feel like. Right. Like what's the minimum of respectful time, what you said?

It's hard because this is an international trip, right? Like you said, if you go to Long Beach to visit Mike's parents, you can be like, you know, we're going to hang out for the day and then I'm coming home and I'm going to sleep in my own bed because it's like doable, right? You don't even really have to have like a sleepover if you don't want to. But an international trip, obviously you're going to have to stay and sleep over. there's an expression that like guests are like fish after three days they start to stink. So maybe if I had to answer that question, I'd say like three days if it's an international or like a trip where you have to sleep over and like sleep in the same place. I could agree with that.

I think that's a great, that's a great rule of thumb. Three days maximum. That's almost like that's the maximum you owe. Right. or the minimum in when the circumstances preclude that right said like you're going around across the country um that's the that's probably like the most you would need to do right with anyone's family ever in any circumstance right yeah and i i mean honestly i don't i also think i think i like the rule of thumb but i do think it's so dependent on the circumstance like if someone's not

really super kind or welcoming or whatever you might want to say like I don't or there's boundaries that are being crossed I don't want to do any sleepovers like I don't want to sit there at all like I want to get a hotel but I guess obviously finances are an issue but yeah I think for like staying in someone's living with someone three days after that it starts to become because the mom's also probably like really excited for the first three days and she's going to be on best behavior and she's going to be really friendly. And then after that, it's kind of like, oh, well, you didn't put your dish in the sink. And, you know, there starts to be these little, like, living habits that become more apparent after the first few days. Yeah. And then you also, I feel like

after the first few days, the person that you're with who grew up with around their family starts to revert to whoever they were and whatever their survival techniques were in that instance, which might not be your favorite part of them either. Yeah, I think if nothing, if this turns out as she's expecting it and nothing changes, this could be like relationship ending for them. Yeah, don't do it. Don't go. Three weeks is like an absurd amount of time to expect anyone to spend with anyone. Right.

Maybe like my friend with my friends for three weeks. And they're not my, like that would be excessive as well. Right. Unless like your house went on fire and you have no place to stay, you know, like then I could see needing to spend. spend three weeks, like living with somebody. But if it's not a crisis situation, life or death, it does seem like a lot of time. I agree. Save yourself. Let's do some intentions. Okay. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi, big fan of the show and of you up. They're the highlight of my work week. I need some help setting an intention to stop self-sabotaging dating. I apologize to this

is a little long. I felt the details were needed. For some background, I'm still in love with my ex and care about him a lot. It's a strong statement. We dated during the pandemic while he was remotely working in my state and I knew off the bat that he'd be leaving to go to a new state eventually, but we still fell in love anyway. When his work went back to office and he moved, we decided to end things. Even though we weren't officially dating anymore, there was still a deep connection there. During a particular visit to my state, his parents live here, I saw him and our feelings were still there. We knew we were in love and decided to give long distance a try. Unfortunately, it didn't work. for us or where we're at in our lives. Since then, he has come back to visit and I've seen him a few

times. It always felt impossible to stay away from each other. But each time when he left, the sadness would come back and it made very difficult for me. So in December, I told him I couldn't see him anymore. It was a very hard decision and it hurt to make, but I knew it was the only way I could move on. This leads me to why I'm emailing now. Currently, I'm dating someone new. He so far seems great and I like spending time with him, but I'm sabotaging things with this new guy and telling myself that I'm going to put a haul to it eventually before it becomes anything serious. We aren't even at the point of where I need to make any sort of commitment, just casually dating, but part of me wants to run the other way.

I think it is because I put my ex on a pedestal and I have a tendency to want someone I can't have, and he is someone I can't have. I also find myself comparing him to every other person and the connection I have with him. I'm scared nothing will ever come close to that feeling and I'm scared I'll never be able to let go of the love that I have for him. I want to see where things go with this new guy, but I'm also scared I'm going to ruin things for myself and get in my own way. Thank you so much, self-sabotaging betch. Yeah, she, I think she knows what this is here.

You know, I think she's, she put this X on a pedestal probably because they never, you know, or at least since they were in the same place, we're able to make it work. So there was always this kind of like unfinished story. that never got written. That allows him to stay on the pedestal. I think people say this a lot where it's like, it's very difficult to get over a breakup when there's no like negative thing that someone has done. That makes, it's almost like it's easier when you hate someone.

Yes. Yep. For sure. And it's very hard when it feels like, you know, we could be together but for these circumstances. And I thought the same thing, because I agree with you, that there's no, she's left.

with this fantasy of this person, and the other person's never going to meet that. And there's, you know, she doesn't have any of these feelings yet with this new person. And she is, like you said, when you read the first sentence, there's like a really still strong feeling of being in love with this guy. One, she may not be ready to date yet if she's really still, like, madly in love with this guy. She may need a little bit more time, like, living without the relationship on her own. but the intention that I wrote for her was along the lines of what you said,

which is there must be something, maybe he's not terrible, he didn't cheat on her, there was nothing horrible that happened, but there were moments there where they were trying long distance and it didn't work, right? Like what was that? What was that moment?

There must have been something that felt uncomfortable where you guys got on the phone or whatever it was and decided we're not doing this anymore. Yeah. something that felt disconnected or negative, negative, whatever it was. So what I think she's doing, and this is an intention thing, and I'm glad she wrote in for the intention segment, is she's focusing probably on all of the good things, but there were moments, something made them decide not to do long distance.

Or, alternatively, there's probably a negative feeling that she has when she thinks of, in order to make this work in reality, she'd have to, she could be. move, right? If the distance was the issue, she could literally quit her job, leave her family, do whatever it would take to leave and move and be with him. If it was that strong of a pole, she's not doing that either. And what is the negative emotion that would happen there? There's something obviously hugely negative that she would feel that would, you know, for her to make that change. Right. So if she would focus on like the reality of the situation, is either I live in this feeling of whatever made them break up over the long distance,

or I live in the reality of whatever the negative thing that would happen if I quit my job and left my family and move to be with you. That's the reality of this relationship. Yes. I agree. She's romanticizing it. Yes. The fantasy is all the amazing things that he does when they are visiting each other, when they

been together, which is not actually the reality of this other guy that's right in front of her that maybe doesn't have all the amazing fantasy stuff, but he's like actually there and they can create memories and moments and all that. Yeah. And as someone who's obsessed over someone who felt like out of reach for me, I also think this, like she said, when she said, I'm in love with this guy, I'm still in love with my ex, blah, blah, blah, by focusing on that part and retelling yourself that part and reestablishing that neural pathway of that story, yeah, you're not going to meet anyone new because you are, because that's the story that you're telling yourself. If you're not, if you're not repeating the mantra of this guy was,

again, she doesn't write the reason it didn't work out long distance. But let's say it's because he wasn't putting that much effort in, which is a reason that things fail. Totally. Let's say it's that. If she keeps repeating that story of this guy was, you know, not putting in the effort I needed, not, that wasn't the relationship that was that was that I deserved. I deserved more than that relationship. Like if that's the story she keeps telling herself, then she might, then she'll see the qualities. Then when she's dating and she's going on dates and she's talking to guys who are present or emotionally available or again, whatever that guy wasn't doing, that it couldn't make it long distance, because it sounds like she was probably into it

enough that she would have kept it going long distance. Right. So I assume it's him. Maybe it's not, but I kind of assume it's him. So if she keeps repeating that story, I think it'll be easier when dating to not be comparing everyone is like not as good as this other guy or not as good of a connection as this other guy. If she keeps telling herself, I'm in love with this other guy, I'm in love with this other guy.

We could have made it work for not for this thing. we could have made it work for an off of this thing. Like, that's the story that you're going to believe. It is interesting to pay attention to the words that listeners use when they write in in that regard. You know, like she's very clearly writing, I'm still in love with him. And look, I'm sure she does feel in love with him. But she wrote it twice and she is like practicing that story of, I'm still in love

with this person. So, yeah, I mean, the intention that I wrote for her is exactly along these lines. I intend to stay focused on what's real and in front of me rather than fantasy. And that's just going to be her reminder every time she starts floating up into the sky about whatever it is, the amazing sex they had or the amazing conversations they had or whatever it is that makes her feel in love with him to realize that that's not the reality. And she has to pull herself back into the real world, which is that the reality is they couldn't make it work staying connected in the life in which they're living.

And they also weren't willing to, you know, do what it took to be in the same place. So, and this guy that she's dating is real. He's in front of her, whether it's him or it ends up being somebody else. She has to focus on what is a real possibility for her instead of this fantasy of what could have been. And that's going to be just a constant mindfulness. intentional reminder of where she needs to take control of her thought process in that way. Yeah. And part of being in a secure relationship, I think, is living in reality. Like the relationships where there's someone always a little bit out of reach or avoidant or you

don't fully have them, those are always going to be more exciting for a longer period of time. because it's not secure. Yes. And insecurity is exciting. Yes. And I understand the draw to that. But it's not like, that's why I mean,

when I used to be like obsessed with this guy, I remember talking to our brother. And I was like, he texted me. And I'm so like, I'm like, he's coming. He's back. And he's like not, he wasn't like feeding into any of that shit. And he was like, when you're, this isn't real. Like, when you're ready,

like you can do this, you can keep like going down that road. You can still tell yourself again that you're in love with this guy or that whatever. But when you're ready to be in a real, when you're ready to be in a real relationship that doesn't that's like real, that's not this like fantasy crazy thing. Like then you're not going to do this anymore. So just do whatever you want to do. They're there. You'll learn soon.

It's true. And sometimes people don't even realize that they're not. they think they want a relationship, but they really want to be chosen by somebody to be in a relationship. They don't necessarily want like the actual relationship, whatever that might be, the sitting on the couch and watching TV and, you know, whatever the things are that you do in a relationship, they just want the, you know, the excitement of getting into the relationship or maintaining the relationship or the insecure parts. So sometimes it's a matter of questioning what you actually are looking for. You just kind of assume, I think a lot of people just because their

friends are in relationships or they think that's what they're supposed to do, they think that they want that when they really just want the chase of it. So, yeah, so I think staying focused on, you know, what's real, you know. And the other part that I, I use a lot with people that are struggling with breakups in general is sometimes your mind, if your mind takes you to that fantasy place, you do the i'll do this exercise we'll say okay you're going back to that imaginary beautiful place where you guys did this thing right whatever it was or you had this moment don't stop there play out the rest of it right then what happened then you got on a plane and left and cried for three hours on the plane on the way home by yourself right or you know whatever it is you guys had a great

day at the walking around the park and then you got home and he wanted to go out and you know go watch football with his friends and didn't invite you to come you know like finish the day finish the story there's a reason you broke up because if it was just like the fantasy place all the time you wouldn't have broken up there's a whole rest of the story that sometimes you kind of because you want to swim in it you want to swim in the you want to bathe and indulge in the yes right yeah yeah You took it in so being obsessed with someone in a fantasy world in a rom-com. Yes, exactly. So in line with that, you'll stop the thought before you get to the part where things

happened that made you want to break up with this person. Yeah. To bring the episode full circle, rock to that article, I think if you were telling someone, if you're telling a, it's helpful as a friend of someone who's going through it in this person's scenario to finish the fantasy. them. Like I have friends who would come to me with the breakup and they'd be like, but, you know, there was that time. And it's hard to get over and they're like, there was that time that he did this nice thing for me. And then if you can help them finish it, even as a friend, be like,

but yeah, but remember like you, like the week later you were upset because that was like, that was it. And then, you know, you never did that again for another six months. Right. Right. Yeah. Like if you, I think that is, um, that's a helpful thing as a friend to comfort someone who's like, because I don't think always comforting someone is about indulging them, like letting them do this indulgent thing. And there are friends. And it's funny because I, because I was like in this long term obsessive thing. I had, I knew I had friends for all sorts of things. I had friends who were going to, who were going to be like, yeah, he's obsessed with you. And sometimes I wanted that. Sometimes I wanted the friends that are like, what are you doing? Like he's never, it's never going to happen.

Totally. Like sometimes you want that. It's funny. You could think. like your phone would just be like reality check, you know, validation, you know, click here. Right. Go for it. Right. Text him. Yeah, I know there's friends for everything. But I do think the most helpful friends are the ones who both validate and also bring you back to reality. Yes, totally. And in that way, validate first. This is really hard. You know, I know there were so many great things that you loved about him. I could see why it's hard to let that go. validate validate and then a little reality on the back end of like yeah but i also do remember that you know right remember when this happened also and then that that i think is actually more helpful

than anything else but not everyone wants that so yeah that's why you pick and choose what you're in the mood for depending on which friend you're going to call exactly i intend to what is it stay in my reality and not i intend to stay focused on what's real and in front of me rather than fantasy. I like that a lot. Let's do some trigger. You want to read the first one? Sure.

Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I'm a dedicated listener and love everything you do. I'm a first-time mom to a 10-week-old baby. My baby's on a strict breastfeeding schedule every two to three hours, which makes leaving the house a bit difficult and requires planning ahead and possibly adjusting the baby's feeding schedule. Recently, I've been making plans to get weekend breakfast with my close friends. Once our plans were made, I checked in the day,

confirming the time and location. On two separate occasions, each of my friends asked to move our breakfast by 30 minutes, extremely last minute, within 30 minutes of us meeting. I got the text while I was already loading the baby in the car and about to leave. How triggered can I be? I woke up early to adjust my baby's feeding schedule so that I could attend this, not to mention was able to shower and get myself ready while looking after a screaming 10-week-old baby while my single, childless, petless friend had to adjust our plans last minute, not thinking that my baby will need to eat again within two hours. Okay.

I left when I read this because like as because she points out her friend is single, childless, petless as like, I guess a negative thing or like whatever as a way to show that they should care more. The fact that this person is single, childless and petless means they have no idea how often your fucking baby needs to eat. Right. Like I have no, like I would, if it were me, even as someone married childless, petless, like that's just why I wouldn't, I don't know, you don't know about how often a feeding schedule is or how annoying it is to move. So to, I've definitely probably done something like this just in the sense of like, oh yeah, like I'm running a little late. You guys mind meeting half hour? Yeah. Right. Or not thinking anything of it. Or sometimes I'm kind of like, oh, people with kids are usually late. So they probably are into that. Right. Right. Give him a little bit more time. Exactly. Right. So she didn't say if she's like explained

why she wants to meet at that particular time to her friends or anything like that. But if she hasn't, I'm kind of like, why would anyone not just do whatever they normally do? Why would anyone know that having a baby means that you can't, that you're bound to a very strict timeline? Right. I agree. I think that she's not real. Like she's in her own world of doing this, which is very hard. I get it. it's a lot and she's trying to maintain friendships while having a 10 week old baby and making that a priority, which I think she feels like, okay, I'm making this a priority. Hopefully they can accommodate me for putting in all this effort to maintain these friendships. But if you're not telling them what you're going through, they're not going to know. And I think if you said to them,

hey, look, it's really very inconvenient for me to push things back at half an hour. So next time that happens, maybe whoever's ready can meet at the time we scheduled and whoever needs to be a half an hour late can be a half an hour late. But this is what I'm going through and I need to keep it this particular way for my own purposes. I know that might be tough for you guys, but I'd appreciate it if you could. If you can't, you know, as long as one other person's there, you can sit and chat with that one other person until everybody else gets there, whatever it is. Yeah. I think that's, I think if she did that and these are her actual friends. If I had a friend, again, not knowing anything about that,

if they were like before we made these plans, said to me, just so you know, like, I know, like, usually I wouldn't care if we're changing the time by a few minutes. I'm actually, like, kind of ain't all about when I'm breastfeeding. And so I'm moving some things around to meet at this exact time and would be so appreciative if we were just like trying to keep it to the actual time. How would you really feel if someone said that? Would you be like, okay, cool.

or would you be annoyed? I think if they said it to me before we were meeting, I would make sure that I was there on time because usually when I'm late, it's because I'm kind of just like distracted and then I'm running late. And you don't think anyone else is going to even care? Right.

If we're all operating on the system we used to be on, which is where no one really has that much going on. And like someone, someone is usually kind of trying to push the time 10, 15 minutes some way or the other. No one really cares. So it's very, it doesn't matter at all. Someone was like, oh, it actually

does matter for me, I would be like, oh, yeah, then I'll make sure I'm there on time. Right. Yeah, you're not late to a job interview. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, I could see, I want to give her a little bit of, I think she's just in it. You know, she has a young, newborn baby, and I think she's just overwhelmed and looking for a place to, um, project some of this. It sounds like she's not getting that much help from a partner for whatever reason. If she's, she's like having the screaming baby trying to shower and there's nobody that's like helping her with that process. It seems like she's not getting a ton of help. So maybe she is looking to her friends for more of that kind of general support, right? The support would show, oh, I know what you're

going through. You have a newborn baby. This must be so hard. Kind of like we talked about again, validation of what she's experiencing and they're just kind of going about their lives, not even noticing what she's going through. So I think that's probably the bigger piece for her than, I don't know about the bigger piece, but that's some of it. Because I know one of the things that I loved about breastfeeding was I could just whip my boob out at any time and feed the baby. I mean, some people aren't comfortable with that. But as opposed to a bottle where you kind of have to like make it and warm it and do the whole thing. So I have a hunch that some of this is just that she's feeling kind of alone in this struggle. And then it's kind of like just salt in the wound

that they're going to make it even harder for her by running a half hour late. Right. Or the last straw in a list of things that are in a list of things that are already feeling very stressful for her. Yes. That's what it sounds like. Because, you know, if she had a supportive partner who knew she was trying to meet up with friends, that person would say, hey, I'll take the baby, take a shower, get dressed. I know you're trying to get out of the house. Right. I mean, this sounds like, like a perfect topic to share with your friends at these brunches about like how you're doing. Like I think sometimes when you're like, oh, I'm when I get back and like see my friends and be social, like, I think that's only really helpful if you're actually having like intimate

conversations during these things. And part of, it sounds like part of what would be real and intimate for you is sharing that you're pretty stressed out. Yes. I agree. Show up to the brunch and just say, be real with them. Baby was screaming the entire time. time I was getting dressed and I have to be honest, it was a little annoying that you guys got here half an hour late and now I'm going to have to leave in 45 minutes to feed the baby again, which sucks. But next time it would mean a lot to me if we could stick to the plan. Right. Agreed. So triggered, what do you think? I feel like you give this on the lower end.

I would give it like if she had told them before this and they were late, I would give it like a five or a six. but if she has never said anything, I don't, especially if she's maybe the first mom in the group and the rest of them don't have kids, I would give this like a two or three because I just don't think they would have any idea. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'll bump it up a little bit just because I think she's going through her own stuff and she's

overwhelmed. And this was just literally like triggering because she's going through whatever she's going through and feeling overwhelmed in general. But yeah. Fair. All right. Let's do one more. Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi.

My boyfriend and I have been together for two years and are getting close to engagement. Some background info. We've been living together since last year and share a dog. He is starting a new job out of state the summer and wants me to move with him. I essentially told him I would not be comfortable moving across state with him unless we got engaged. He understands where I'm coming from and plans on proposing at some point. I know he has been shopping for rings because he has told some of our. our friends. Last night, he randomly told me he couldn't afford a ring. He makes about $75,000 a

year, and I make about $135,000. I've always felt that he is a little bitter that I make so much more money. Whenever he complains about his lesser salary, I reassure him that if we marry, we are a team and we'll share finances and also reminded him that in a couple of years, he will get a pretty significant salary increase, whereas I'm basically capped out. Anyhow, he suggested buying me one of those silicone bands until he can afford a real ring, and I was triggered. I explained to him that lots of people with his salary or less still buy engagement rings, and I reminded him that I did not ask for a specific carrot size. I also told him I was fine with the lab created diamonds since they are cheaper and to me look just as nice. I feel like I'm being reasonable and giving

him options on his price point with the ring, but I really don't want a silicone ring instead of the real thing. How triggered can I be? Do you think he is just being cheap or trying to avoid getting engaged? Sincerely, diamonds are a girl's best friend. The question at the end is interesting because the question at the end is do you think he's being cheaper trying to avoid getting engaged that seems to come out of nowhere you know like that she thinks that he's not even into the engagement well she's i think the fact that she has now has kind of given him this ultimatum of the moving she's like i'm not going to move with you unless you're engaged does does i think probably make her question if he really wants to do it or if he's doing it so that she'll move

with him. Right, right. That makes sense. Yeah, the hard part is there's, there's two ways to do this engagement thing, and I've seen it done both. One is you just patiently wait for the person to propose, which some people do that, and then it keeps this romantic idea of the person gets to decide when and how and the ring and all of that. And it's romantic, and it's a surprise. She's already opted not to have that option. They're having conversations. about getting married. She's giving him a timeline on when she wants it to happen. There is a financial piece that she wants to be involved in kind of what type of ring she gets. So at this point, she's three quarters of the way there. I think maybe she just says, hey, here's a carrot size.

Here's a ring that I would be happy with that I think is within a reasonable, reasonable budget. Or even asking him, like, what is your budget? Because she's involved in the process. She doesn't, he's come up with a solution, which to him, there was some movie where it was so romantic, he takes a guitar string and wraps it up into a shape of a ring and it's a proposal and, you know, so, you know, she wants what she wants, which is fine. I think a lot of women do want that, but then you're involved. And now you have an opinion and you might as well just say, let's just talk turkey. How much you think you can afford. And, you know, know, what do you think, you know, I want to help you kind of find something that's going to work for both of us. Right. And if he's like, I can't really afford anything right now, I'll be able to afford, because it sounds like that's what he's saying. I'll be able to afford more at a later date, but you really want this to happen now. Right. So, and it sounds like he wants, he's like,

he wants to get engaged, but I can see, like, she's putting the options on him, but it sounds like she's really the one who is to decide, like, what is more important to me, getting engaged right now, even when you know it's coming, but getting the physical ring right now, or waiting and getting the ring I want. Right. And look, there's, there's in between two. So I think there's something in between like a $15 silicone band and, you know, a $10,000 diamond. You know, I think she could say, you know, why don't we go, you know, maybe you could pick out a beautiful ring that you think is beautiful, but doesn't necessarily have like a diamond in it. You know, maybe they just need to have that conversation

if there's something that could be meaningful in some way that doesn't involve a large financial investment. And I think that's the conversation that he's saying, I don't have the funds to propose to you with a significant financial investment. Is that something that you need for you to say yes? And I do think it doesn't have to be, you know, know, a silicone band. I think it could, I mean, there's, go to TJ Max right now. There's like some

beautiful rings there that might be really pretty and meaningful or go, you know, stroll around the city and pick out something that's a memory of that day that you spent together, whatever. There's, it doesn't have to be nothing, but it doesn't have to be everything. I think they, but they probably do need to have a conversation about it. I also think this is a great opportunity to have a conversation about money in general. Because it sounds like she's sort of hinting or not even hinting, but saying explicitly that there's some like underlying resentments and maybe a feeling of a difference in a lifestyle

that they both are interested in. And those are good, those are better conversations to have now before you move, before you get engaged. Those are really the important things to iron out rather than the size of the ring. That's sort of just a, it sounds like that's more of a metaphor here. for lifestyle or the way that they're, they feel about what they're both earning and bringing to the table, which it sounds like they haven't fully worked through.

Yes. And her, just saying, you think he's being cheap. Well, maybe to him he's not being cheap. Maybe to him he's being, you know,

frugal or conscientious about money. And that is something that they're going to need to figure out. To him, maybe it's not worth, you know, buying a ring at this point because something else is going to have to give for him or for them. So I agree.

This is a great time to have a conversation about money. And that's why I say just really being open about what his budget is. And if her budget is a little bit higher, he might say, okay, here's two options. Either we settle for something cheaper now and I propose or we wait and I propose with the ring you want, but we're going to have to move first. Right. And I mean, if he's saying that they're going to be, he wants to get engaged to like, unless she doesn't believe him that he's that he's that he's going to propose to her and I think that's a real

intimate um vulnerable thing to say to someone if that's your real fear of like do you not really want to get engaged or like if I didn't make if it sounds like I don't want to feel like I'm forcing you to get engaged and part of like what the reason I've been triggered by the silicone ring suggestion is that maybe it felt like you weren't that excited about getting engaged because you offered this like extremely practical solution. And if that's really what's upsetting, I mean, maybe it's upsetting that she wants a certain ring,

or maybe it's upsetting that she kind of feels like it doesn't mean that much to him because she's asking for it. And I think that's something that it's good to share. And that will help you both be more vulnerable, but how you actually feel about the engagement. Right. And I think he has something to share with, like they have something to talk about on his end too,

or maybe he does need to share that he feels insecure about how much more money she makes than him and how that's, I think that's obviously an underlying issue. She said that, that he feels that way. So I think that's something that needs to come out into the open and might bring them closer together if he can share his real feelings about his insecurity about money.

So yeah, I agree. I mean, this was a triggered and I could see why it's triggering, but I ultimately think that this is a perfect time for them to sit down and have like a real deal conversation about money, the emotions behind money and how they're going to navigate that in the future. Yeah. I mean, nothing, I think that that's when something triggers you, that's a sign. You haven't been through it. Yes. Totally. Great conversation

before you move away and get engaged to get on the same page about, I think. Yeah. So how triggered are you about the silicone ring suggestion? I mean, truthfully, I think I would also not be happy with that. Right. But I mean, again, it depends on the context and it would have it sounds like he was framing it like this is a placeholder. And I'm so I could see both. I mean, I think it's like a five because I think it could go either way. It really depends on like the expectations involved in it. But I think it's because part of the, I think part and part of the meaning behind obviously like it's stupid to spend so much money on a ring like, theoretically, like it doesn't really make any, like, actual sense. But romance, like, things are romantic because they're not logical in a sense. Right. Well, I think it's romantic because it shows, you bring up a good point. The whole concept of this diamond engagement ring, if aliens flew down from another planet,

they would just, everyone does this. It's like clock every single person wants this. We all want different things. We have different cars. We have different homes. We wear different clothes every day. but on this particular thing, everyone wants the same color ring, same stone. Everyone wants a diamond. Why is that? I don't know that much about jewels, but I think it's because it's the most expensive one that you can get, right? Yeah, it's a marketing thing, yeah. By the diamond industry, sure.

Right. So it's sort of like it's also a gesture of sacrifice, like literal financial. This is how much I'm willing to spend to, show you that I want you in my life forever. And so if it's not really about you needing him to make this financial sacrifice, maybe I urge you to just be open to, you know, a cubic serconia or whatever it is.

Like I know you said you're open to a different, you know, lab created thing, but something or a different color gemstone or some, if it's not about him making this financial sacrifice, then get outside of the box. Make it not about the financial sacrifice. Because it sounds like that's stressing him out. And if it is about the financial sacrifice,

you might want to wait until he's able to make more of a financial sacrifice. And I think a lot, I think that this isn't said that much because men don't really want to admit it. But I think a lot of men do delay getting engaged because they do not feel prepared to make that financial sacrifice. They don't feel like they can afford it. And I do think that that way, that's ways on their own self-esteem. Right.

100% I agree what do you give this I give this a I give this a five yeah because I understand like the well it's just hard the I think it's more it might even be more about other people the engagement announcement that now you're kind of like show me the ring right I can see not feeling excited to show someone and the thing is like right after you get engaged you have to show at you show at first thing everyone asks how do he do it show me the ring those are two things So I can see where she's like, oh, this feels like a little deflating or non-romantic to be like, here's the silicone ring. Right. But you can't have it all.

So this is the person that she wants to marry and this is the person she wants to be with. And this is their circumstances. Yep. I agree. All right. That's it. I hope we helped. I think we did.

Again, we love some updates. We get them every now and then. But if anyone, if we've processed your issue, we'd love to hear how it's turned out. want to share with us. Yes, please do. All right, that's our time. Great work today. Oversharing is produced by Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales-Picot, and Rebecca Salis McHan. Editing by Vassilio-Perez. Yes, booking by Allie Friedlander. Send your advice emails to Oversharing at betches.com. We'll leave us a voicemail at 646-363-6294.