Panic World - Revisiting "Her" in the age of AI relationships

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

If you forgot to add this important event to your calendars, Spike Jonze’s 2013 sci-fi film, Her, was actually set in 2025. Ryan and Grant watched the Joaquin Phoenix and Scarlett Johansson vehicle now that we’re just past that date to see what it got right and wrong. They discuss where Jonze thought we would be versus where we are with generative AI, societal isolation, relationships — and whether the movie is really "one of the best science fiction movies of all-time." We're off this week, so this is a Patreon unlock! If you're interested in more ad-free and extended episodes, access to our Discord, bonus videos and conversations like this one, subscribe for just $5 a month at: https://www.patreon.com/PanicWorld. If you're an Apple Podcasts user, you can also sign up through COURIER+ in the app. It's a good way to support the show! Sponsor: If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started: https://learn.nocd.com/panic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Friends, hello, my name is Mike Regneta. I'm the host of a podcast called NeverPost, which is about the internet. Or really, it's about the world and why the world is the way that it is because of the internet. We ask big questions like, why do disgraced politicians join Cameo? Why is it scary and satisfying to block someone? Would you ever create an AI voice clone of a deceased loved one in a show that you don't need to be terminally online to enjoy? But it doesn't hurt. NeverPost is at neverpo.st and wherever you find podcasts.

You guys remember the movie Her. Did you feel good about it? Did you like it at the time? Did it seem whimsical? Ryan and I revisited it. And spoiler. Boy, does this movie not hold up well. And a teaser, not for the reasons you might think.

We recorded this for our premium thing, both on Patreon at patreon.com slash Panic World and on Apple Plus Courier. But this week, we're resetting our cortisol levels. We're rewiring our brain. And we thought, hey, you can listen to Ryan and I hate a movie. Yeah, I hope you're all great. We'll talk to you in a week.

Thank you, Patreon.com slash Panic World and Apple Plus Courier. Ryan, when ChatjvT sends you cartooner erotica, where does it put the butthole? What? I'm Graeme Irving. This is Panic Road, a show about how the internet warps our minds, our culture, and eventually reality. Joining me, a guy who loves keeping his phone in his chest pocket, Ryan Broderick. How you doing? Hello.

Thank you for having me on my show. Did you not recently watch the movie, Her, where they theorized about putting the butthole in the armpit? I got to say, I hated every single moment of this movie. I did too. I think it's like a repulsive, obnoxious film. I don't remember having this visceral of a reaction to it the first time I saw it. I liked it when I was 20. I think I didn't mind it.

Yeah, I was in a bad mood after finishing this movie. And I was like begging for it to be over it, to be honest. Marty refused to watch with me. And I had a text in this morning being like, you were absolutely right. This was this was drag. But let me, let me, let me set this up. Sure. Her, the movie that kind of like kicked off AI into mainstream consciousness came out 12 years ago.

And it was set in 2025. I dumbly thought it would be interesting to rewatch this movie, seeing as it is the year that it was set in. I shouldn't have done that. It was interesting. It's just, it's such a stupid and frankly repulsive. of film that like the tech stuff in it is like really hard to dig for because it is just so buried in this obnoxious Gen Z twee nonsense that I had a tough time with it. I have to admit. I out loud was like, oh God, a ukulele. No, no, no, no, no. Just God, man, it was just like,

I guess we should get this out of the way. Like, it's depiction. of what we would now call generative AI is very, very, very good and sharp. And like clearly saw that. And it's depiction of a world, much like our own current one, where everyone is isolated because of the internet is also quite good. The major issue with the movie, and we can get further into it, obviously. But the major issue, as I see it, is that it sees all these things quite clearly, but it doesn't know what to make of them. It doesn't have like a take on them.

I think largely because the movie is not about technology, it's actually like a response film to Lawson's translation about Spike Jones's divorce from Sophia Coppola, which like the two films speak to each other. But the screenplay like does not know what to do with the conclusion it should come to, I would say. when I was 23 or however what I was when I saw this, I was just like, man, this is cutting to the bone about what relationships are. But now that I'm an adult who has healthy relationships and like that are generative and like can be more specific and nuanced and like, she's got some big emotions. That falls apart. So then it just becomes this kind of cringe headshake. But like maybe there is something captured there that the people having the most. most relationships with their AIs are the emotion emotionally stunted.

But like, I was like, this is, this is written by somebody who's never had an adult relationship is what it felt like. But that's the problem with the movie. Yeah, like, Joaquin Phoenix's character whose name. Andor doesn't, doesn't matter. Theodore. I wanted to kill that guy with a hammer. I hated that guy.

And the, the problem is the movie doesn't hate that guy. No. He's clearly a self, he's clearly a self insert is my, in my opinion. It's a weird movie to watch because it, it's, it's clearly. clearly, maybe unknowingly, coming to the conclusion that I think a lot of people have come to in the last year, which is that AI services are particularly attractive to people with like severe emotional problems. But the movie, the movie like. I just didn't know. It was fantasizing about about today.

Yeah, like the movie like doesn't realize what it's saying. So you get like manic. Pixie Dream AI and it doesn't understand that like that's a poor reflection on the main character who is a sniveling shithead and I hate him like more than I think I've ever hated a character in a movie to be honest like every time he's on screen I was like I want I think it would be better if this guy died for everyone in his life so so I want to move through the beats of the of the movie I think that's the easiest way to do this spoiler for this 12 year old movie if you didn't get it from what we're doing it.

Sure. Before we get into like just walking through it, what was your impressions of Samantha and the OS iteration taking over the world that was just like a light switch that there was no AI and then suddenly there was like AI that's just like I'm a fucking like I'm all being.

Well, I mean, that's a very common trope in sci-fi. The idea of like the AI becomes aware and then it evolves beyond the matters of the physical world. Like that's like a normal sci-fi trope. You know, there's a ton of movies, a ton of fiction about that. The depiction of Samantha is, I think, incredibly sharp. Even down to the like moment where he's like installing the OS like down to like the Apple. Apple store style unboxing. All of that is really well done. And honestly, the tech in general is really well thought out because you, okay, so you're effectively, it's set in a world where everyone

has like a screen, like a foldable sort of screen, but they largely interface with the internet and like tech via an earpiece wearable that they talk to. And so before Samantha is introduced, the movie you're like in a Siri style world where you know he's on the subway oh we should talk we have we need to talk about the train the train porn in this movie because like the idea of like a high speed rail going up and down the california coast that's a true sci-fi fiction there i do just want to point out point out that this was three years before air pods worth it yeah i remember watching it being like that like even at the time being like that's so smart and like now you're like wow you really did see it coming so like the scene he's on the subway

And he's like, he's effectively manipulating all of his services via talking to it. And then he pulls out his phone to like look at like the, the models pregnant like photo shoot. All of that I think is almost how people are using their phones right now. Like that is like pretty dead on. And then when Samantha appears, it is not dissimilar from the way chat ChbT launched here, which was like, finally it's going to talk back to you. And in fact, basically like the first half of the movie, all,

the depiction of the tech they're using is either stuff that exists now or stuff that could easily exist within the next five years. And then obviously it speeds up the artificial general intelligence idea and compresses it into like a matter of months. And that's not a crazy idea. That's literally like what Open AI thinks is about to happen. So it's fictionalized, of course, but like the end of the movie is literally what most of the people at major tech firms right now believe is going to happen in the next like five to ten years.

The major difference, besides that it's actually intelligent, is that he imagined a world where this AI actually wants to better you instead of just being a sycophant for you. I would disagree there, though. I would disagree there because, and this is where I come back to like the script, like really not knowing what to do. It's almost like Spike Jones saw vision of the future and like clearly did not know how to interpret like what he saw, which is like, you know, nine out of ten times like, pretty pretty dead on so there is that incredible scene where uh theodore is sitting on like the steps of the subway at the end and he realizes that samantha's been like talking to like 16,000 other people simultaneously and is in love with 691 of them there's little moments throughout the movie where it is so close to nailing it and then it it pulls back or veers away into some sort of like stupid Tweed thing. But it is so close. And that is what I think I found frustrating about it.

I mean, there's also just like a whole bunch of fascinating questions it poses that it has no interest in answering because it's so stuck up its own butt about being like a Tweed romance film. Like the idea of like human relationships with AI, the scene where like I'm skipping around a bunch, but like the scene where they hire the woman to come in to like be part of their like AI human relationship yeah and then the whole like way that like AI are having relationships like there's so much stuff in this movie that we are very close I mean actually know we're these things are happening right now like there's a million stories now of like a husband confiding or a wife confiding in the AI and like you can see very quickly a world now

where there's a threesome and one of them as an AI is a mediator between the two like you can see this happening now, but the film has no interest in like exploring those things beyond just like, wouldn't that be funny or weird? That seems particular. It's like, this is the stupidest thing in this movie because it's the most underdeveloped, but like would be like the could be the most interesting idea to explore of like what leads these people here and this intermediary. Like, that's the HBO show version of it. But I want to let's let's run through a bit by bit. I think the sort of discrepancies will come up. So we open with him writing letters.

Like his job is to write like love letters for people in relationships, which is, what did you think of this job? It's funny. I, while watching it, remembered my feelings watching it the first time. So when I was like in the viral content minds in my early 20s, after like a year of doing that kind of work, making content for Facebook, you know, to go viral on Facebook, I remember, you know, getting a sense of, okay, like this is what goes viral there and beginning to feel like I was writing greeting cards and feeling like very depressed. And when I first watched this movie, I remember thinking like, oh, that is literally my job. Like my job is to make like a list of cats go viral. And that is not that different. from this like, this like fictionalized futuristic greeting card company that this guy works for.

Watching it now, I remember that feeling. And I was like, yep, I remember that. But then I was like, oh, this is a really interesting. This world is so siloed by technology that even before the AI appears, he is effectively doing the work of an AI. He is a mechanical Turk, which that is a thing now. And it's one of those things that keeps coming back throughout the movie that once again, I just wish they did more with because that is such a sad, like, devastating idea for a job in the future that is not that far off from like services that exist now.

Like the name is kind of silly. Like, you know, like love letters. We write love letters.com or whatever it is. And like other than that, though, that the office dead on, open floor millennial jail cell. I mean, it's just like, get on. Chris Pratt being there kind of hitting on you. Yeah. At first, I was like, well, this is dumb because this is obviously the first job that AI would take.

But then I was like, I was like, no, I can really imagine in two years a company boasting. Like, it starts to become a novelty to have a person do the labor for you instead of something that like something that chattypte could do. Like I could see that becoming a boutique thing, like a rarity to exploit. Well, so like in a better movie, like there would be just less and less people working in that office as it shuts down. Because we open before you got to keep in the movie, we open pre-Samantha. So it's like a glimpse of the pre-AI world. The really devastating part of that job is when he reveals like halfway through that he's been writing the same love letters for the same couples as each as each of them. for years.

And that to me is a very, very sort of shrewd look at the way, like, technology like worms itself into relationships. And then I suppose like that when a, when the AI is introduced like in, you know, the, the middle of the first act, that's like building on that idea. That like now instead of like him being the technological, you know, middle ground between two people, it's just being replaced by an AI. Like it's it that I thought was like really good like I love the opening of this movie because you're just like you've nailed it I think we get that he's depressed and moping I thought okay I can I can tolerate how much Joaquin's going to mope around this movie I was wrong. Uh then we get the uh phone sexting where uh there's real live

women just waiting to two two phones sext which uh was surprising but uh then wait no I thought that was I thought that was pretty sharp too because like those rooms exist on discord like that's a thing because like the whole opening of the movie is showing like different ways like technology has like infiltrated human relationships and most of the ways that you see it are things that exist now i think the opening this movie i did not enjoy listening to wakene phoenix have phone sex but did you like when she said strangle me with a dead cat because i thought i thought that was funny it's stuff that exists like it's that i thought was pretty well done. Because you can go into like a weird furry Discord room right now and do that, you know,

if you want. The dumb AI, the sort of automated AI is just pairing people to have phone sex. And that is literally like there are discord rooms you can go into right now and do that. Like, and you can also go and hook up with someone on Tinder. Like that to me, I was like, you nailed it. Yeah. Uh, but, but then he sees the eye for AI consciousness. He's very lonely.

so he is an early adopter. I think they did a good job of showing why he would have zero hesitation towards bringing this into his life. They did a really good job of showing the appeal to AI in a way that has only revealed itself in our world more recently. Well, once again, it's one of those things that is in the movie, but it's like it's not really addressed, but it's like clearly in there. which is that he goes to the AI after a divorce.

And then Amy Adams, his friend, Amy, goes, sure, goes and gets an AI after her divorce. Yeah. So it's clearly saying something there of like, if you're vulnerable, these services are attractive. And she doesn't think he's weird when they talk about it, you know, towards the middle of the movie. And that is true. Like we know that like that is that is a thing for AI users right now. It's like the more vulnerable you are, like the more effective these services. When he's first meeting Sam, she can tease him and pantomime in a way that is not just like,

hey, I'm a personal assistant here to help you, but is like, is Maddoch Pixie girlfriend energy? Brutal, absolutely brutal. Do you think that that's like, is that the aspiration? Is that what, is that what, uh, open AI wants is to, to make it the romantic pixie girlfriend or like, or just love bombing AI is like all that we will ever get. Grock has a companion mode right now. Sure. You can have sex with Grock right now if you want. Um, I forget her, her, her, her anime girl name.

But like, yeah. I mean, also you could make manic pixie dream girl chat Chb. If you want it. Yeah. Already. The man-picts a dream girl as an AI is a great concept. If the movie was a more effective satire, that would be a great idea. Like if this movie, as it should have, hated its protagonist and wanted nothing but misery

for him because he sucks so bad, it would have been like 500 days of summer, but with an AI. But it's not that. That's the problem with the movie. Yeah, yeah, the affectionate teasing. is a thing that AI has not yet mastered. It can. Oh, Chachapit does do that.

It does. Okay. You can ask it to respond however you want, but it can make fun of you. It can be mean to you. It can praise you. Like, you can do that. And it's sort of implied in the movie that she's doing that because she realized that's what he wants.

Like when they do the boot up process, it's like asking him questions. And he's like over explaining and treating it like therapy. And then it like gives him a bubbly manic picture dream girl. Like that doesn't that that's clearly what's happening in that scene, I think. At what point did you realize you hated it? You hated him. We're probably like 15 minutes into the movie at this point. I hadn't seen it in a long time.

And I sort of forgot. I kind of remember the ending and I remember like certain bits of it. But the movie is set up in the first act like it's going to make it's going to expose that this guy is sad freak because he is. But then it doesn't. And it's basically right after Samantha turns online and it starts going well and it becomes a story about how she's like rehabilitating his life. It should by all accounts go off the rails because he's a sad loser.

And it doesn't. And that's the main issue. So I hated him the minute I realized that I was supposed to root for him, which I can't ever imagine being that pathetic enough to read for this guy. This guy sucks so bad. He's the worst. Yeah. Ever had a thought that just stopped you cold?

Something disturbing or completely out of nowhere that you just couldn't shake? What if I did something terrible? What if I can't trust my own mind? And no matter what you do to try to feel better, pushing it away, replaying it, looking for answers, your brain just keeps running it back louder each time. For millions of people, that loop isn't just overthinking or anxiety. it can actually be OCD, not the organizing stereotype. Real OCD is persistent, unwanted, intrusive thoughts that feel totally out of character,

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That's nocd.com. He's playing a video game. He gets his friend sent him up on a date. They're coaxing him to go out with somebody. Okay, that's the moment where the date is the moment where I was just like, there's nothing in this world for you. You, like, I hate you. Let's talk about the date.

The date is one of the most excruciating scenes I've watched in a long time. He spends most of it talking about a video game that he's playing. Yes. Yes. And I was like, I was like, oh, so I was, I forgot what was going to happen. I was like, he's talking about a video game. She's going to walk away from him and then he's going to turn to his AI. And then that's not what happens.

That's what's way worse. It's way worse, which is that she's like, she's like, wow, that's so interesting. And they talk about it for a while. And then she after the date is just like, hey, do you want to go out again? and he can't even answer the question because he's so up his own asshole and then she like walks away as yeah any self-respecting person would because the guy's like i have a thing next saturday so i can't hang out with you and what's crazy is like the movie is trying to portray her as like desperate and unreasonable and not understanding his pathos and it's like what is wrong with you

and it was like it was like she likes to be kissed specifically how like she's out there It's like, first of all, it's Olivia Wild, too. So it's like, okay. So this gorgeous woman is just like, hey, can you commit to like going to dinner another time in the next calendar month? And he's like, oh, I got like my goddaughter's birthday in two weeks. So I can't. And it's like she's supposed to look crazy. That's nuts.

Like I didn't realize like the world's depiction of like, we're talking about how like anti-woke everything is now. but like that scene is so dated and crazy that like i couldn't believe it was barely 10 years ago in a movie they really nailed dating as far as from from what i've heard this this is what uh what friends say to me uh going out with men who are who are single in their late 30s are like i mean i will say it is part of like this undercurrent especially in the first half of the movie that the internet in this movie has made everyone extremely lonely everyone is living in these like little hotel apartments you know in these massive high rises in a futuristic LA that for some reason has public transportation that is amazing and possibly filmed in like

Tokyo like some of the down the underground scenes are like unbelievable but it's all smog filled it's like what they're doing with the skyline where like no one was like saying like another scorcher but it's like the world is blighted but also yeah I it was it was an I couldn't tell if it was just like color palette or they were to say something. No, no. There's, well, this movie is trying to say a lot of things without really trying to say anything. It has that Gen X thing about it that I just, I find repulsive. But it's, yeah, the opening, the opening third of the movie is like painting this very lonely, blighted, as you said, future where everyone is completely isolated and they're getting like crazier because they're isolated. It's like very COVID core in a way. And then it sort of

forgets about that in the middle of the movie. Like all that stuff kind of, it takes a back seat once it starts being like let's do an eternal sunshine of the spotless mind with this guy so the date with the humanoid goes bad so then uh sam is is talking about how she wishes she had a body and was a person yes and that leads to sexting i you know the first time i watch us i like was taking her as like a individualistic entity that actually like could self-determine And now watching this, I was like, oh, this is just the souped up version of where we want AI to go, where instead of asking for the prompt, it can intuit like what he wants to hear, which is I wish I could be there with you. Yeah. It's interesting to watch this now and sort of have the lens of chat chabit, which is like clearly was not in the movie.

Because the movie is the movie is telling a story like a classic sci-fi story of like AI comes online and it evolves beyond human. and then it like goes to the stars or whatever it goes into cyberspace like it's a classic sci-fi trope and so it's using that metaphor in a very confusing way because you could see this as like okay spike jones is like saying goodbye to like his manic pixie dream girl ex-wife and like that's like that's what this is right and that she's like evolved beyond him but it's doesn't do that either. The movie is a mess, man. It's such a weird. It's such a weird movie because it's like seven different metaphors nested together and it in it it really only works if you don't think about it at all. The whole sort of like middle-aged man dates a poly girl who then

like helps him rediscover himself and then she moves on beyond him is like part of it, I guess. like that's part of what the story is trying to say. But then it's also trying to say like a very complicated thing about like artificial general intelligence. And another thing about like isolation between humans and technology. It's it's a mess. Kind of sounds like life now, doesn't it? Well, yeah.

But like that's that's kind like it almost feels like that's like all it was trying to do in the end was just be like, this all could happen. Yeah. And I, and you know, like we're all just like men in a high waisted pants. This is wild. The fashion is so good though. The fashion is so good. And I remember being like stunned by it.

And I'm like, oh yeah, we kind of dress like that. We just look worse because we're not all. Because like we don't have the money for this. I can't dress like that because Mugi doesn't make pants and shirts tall enough for me. They don't do extra large. Is it Mugi? You hear that lady's Ryan is tall. You can't tell because he's only sitting down.

But you got a tall guy here. Look like my shirt doesn't go to my to my wrist. Like, yeah, I would love to be draped myself and nothing but Uniclo and Muji and like high-priced Japanese designer brands, but I can't because I'm tall and I have an excellent chin and jawline. Courier, can you can you extend? I would love to be draped in Japanese streetwear. But yeah, no, the fashion in that in the movie is is breathtaking. And as you said, yeah, it is basically just how a lot of people, especially in Silicon Valley dress now.

The visual language of it either set a time. tone that we're like this is what 2025 should look like or just like was was you know genuinely impressing and I think we're all taken by that and also like that breeder song still fucking rocks yeah soundtrack's good I love moping to that song uh all right so he they they have sex they have an awkward next day she says she doesn't want to be alone that was so fucking stupid oh my god the sex scene with Samantha is unbearable it is also so long it's so long it's so So long. It's so much longer than you think it is. And it's all black. So it's just the audio of Joaquin Phoenix coming for like minutes. It's awful. And it's also another one of these threads

that like doesn't that connects but doesn't really go anywhere where it's like, okay, it is clearly meant to be a mirror of the discord Tinder scene earlier in the movie. And then you think it's going to reveal that like, okay, finally like we're going to get to like he's the problem. Everything. He's the problem. But it doesn't. that even though he's like being weird to the AI and it gets compounded later in the film when he meets his ex-wife and then afterwards amy adams his character's like actually her emotions are pretty volatile you're you're not to blame the whole movie should reveal that this guy is the problem and at every point where it's about to do that the movie's like actually no he's not the problem

and like that's how you know it's a self-insury like this guy knows like spike jones knows exactly what's wrong with himself and he's put it all in his film but then he's having every character in the film be like, it's not your fault, actually, which is very chat. CBT user coded, actually. The whole movie feels like you've talked this out with an AI. And it's been like, no, even though all of your flaws are extremely evident in the way that you're describing your life to me, you're not the problem. That's just showing how awesome you are that you.

Exactly. Yeah. Everyone else has a problem. Because they want you to kiss a certain way or not be weird after sex or like, don't go to the beach in your fucking. Oh. Everyone else is on the beach in a. bathing suit and he's just laying in the sand in his in his two thousand dollar little

do you want to go on a sunday adventure is what he asks his ai and then he takes the train to the beach the person who says that has never left the house for a longer than half hour i i like i said oh hold on wait so this is orson wells describing woody allen okay so the interviewer says have you met whaty allen and orson wells replies oh yes i can hardly bear to talk to him. He has the chaplain disease, that particular combination of arrogance and timidity that sets my teeth on edge. And the reporter, the interviewer says, he's not arrogant, he's shy. And Orson Welles says he is arrogant. Like all people with timid personalities, his arrogance is unlimited. Anybody who speaks quietly and shrivels up in company is unbelievably arrogant.

He acts shy, but he's not. He's scared. He hates himself and he loves himself, a very tense situation. It's people like me, you have to carry on and pretend to be modest. And then the interviewer says, does he take himself very seriously? And then Orson Willis finishes by saying very seriously. I think his movies show it. To me, it's the most embarrassing thing in the world. A man who presents himself at his worst to get laughs in order to free himself from his hangups. Everything he does on screen is therapeutic.

Yeah. That is how I felt watching the entire movie. I was like, I want to beat this guy with hammers. And everything he does to me is repulsive and arrogant in his, own shriveled timidity. I hate, I hate this guy. Yeah, like what the movie did for me in this way was, was like, man, this guy getting this like, like, I'm so enamored with, with your, with all of your things is like, is going to be fucking horrible for humanity. Like, like, we're going to coax you to the beach, little buddy. And then, but like, like, even though I'm the most hyper intelligent

creature that has ever existed. Right. I'm going to draw you a cartoon. of like, what if a butthole was in an armpit? And then I'm going to make you a twee little piano song. Man, I hated the three little piano song. Oh, I hated the two little piano. I was like, and then the scene where she reveals that she's like in love with 600 other people should once again be one of those moments where the movies like, yeah, this guy is insane to have thought that this hyper intelligent AI is in love with him. This entire movie is, is, is an insane massratory display. much like how people use chat chbtee it makes the movie actually a very fascinating artifact yeah

it is effectively the most accurate depiction of our current AI era that is put to film that i can think of and yet it also suffers from all of the same problems that lead people to use chat chepti like it is a fascinating cultural object uh as as the blank check podcast would put it like it's a guy who saw the future very clearly and yet was so in trance and seduced by its possibilities that he could not accurately tell you what to think about that future or even how to dramatize that future. Like, it's a, it's a, it's a fascinatingly frustrating and an awful movie. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that I think the runtime speaks to that because like you're jumping ahead. I'm like, I have other scenes listed in my outline. The movie is so long. It's two hours long. Nothing happens. He goes to the woods. Nothing happens for Chris Pat, Pratt calls him gay. That was funny.

wait uh do you want to talk about i do want to talk about chris pratt's character because i think chris pratt's character once again in a more clearly dramatized movie would be a really fascinating mirror uh or foil to t to to theodore because he spends the movie chris pratt's character spends the movie being like i'm the office asshole kind of but he's not in fact he's like very genuinely impressed by theodore's writing and he then seemingly is inspired by theodore to go find a human woman to start dating and have a healthy relationship with and then when they say to theodore like we love your writing you're so talented he then is like it's just letters like it's just bullshit and has like a little fucking piss pant tantrum so like watching the movie now i can't

believe i'm saying these words chris brats character is great yes chris pratt's character is like He's like, he's the only person in the movie who has escaped the mind virus of like the modern world. Because like even Amy Adams's character. Yeah, but he's not even convinced he's a dofus because like he's dating a lawyer. He's like a normal schlubby guy that like bagged a lawyer. And he's like, but he's depicted as like this like office idiot receptionist. But it's like, I don't know, man. Everyone else in the movie is a miserable like carbuncle of a human being.

And this guy's just like, you want to go to like. Catalina for a picnic with my hot girlfriend. And he doesn't even bat an eyelash of the AI thing. He's just like, yeah, bring your AI. That was the, that was the best part where where, where. Theodore Joaquin is going, I'm dating and no us. He's like, that's cool. Cool. That's cool, man. One less person in the car, I guess. He's the only person in the movie that like has any semblance of a normal life. And it seems like pretty happy about it because he's like not touching the technology. I will push back. Amy Adams, uh, being a video, uh, being a video,

game designer that makes boring documentaries is a very normal depiction and that very accurate depiction of modernity i'm actually really happy brought this up amy adams character is such a realistic portrayal of like a woman that just exists that it's borderline slanderous to put on film like it's like i've met so many of those people in my life uh who are just like depressed video game designers that want to make the most insane documentaries you ever heard of like those people are so real you don't want to watch my mother's sleep yeah yeah yeah i'm like i'm like i bend to that which is like another thing where you're like you're like you're watching this movie and you're like this should be like a cutting satire yeah and it's not no no it's like it's like it's like she's just like this is what

you got to do to make your art you know like it's and her husband like doesn't understand it and they break up over because he's controlling and and and she's like to be portrayed as like another like heroic person and it's like you're a misanthrope who makes like shitty mobile games or whatever shitty VR games the game look fun yeah it looked fine it was like it was basically like uh overcooked right uh yeah so there's a middle where things languish uh that like those are the two other main characters he gets like re-divorced they like sign papers and then he's all grumpy again and um oh his wife his his his wife his ex wife he's depressed after they signed divorce papers he pulls away from manic pixie dream ai and then she in a ditch effort to save the

relationship even though she's has very fulfilling relationships with another 600 creatures uh decides to get a human companion to come in and be the human vessel for their sex yes This is maybe the only idea in the movie that hasn't had some shape of it come to fruition yet. And because of that, I actually found it to be the most interesting. Like, it actually did kind of light my head on fire a bit because right now there's been a million think pieces about my husband is in love with an AI or my wife is in love with an AI or I have an AI boyfriend. friend. And we haven't actually seen anything about mixed human AI polycules, I guess you could call it. And so the idea of two or more humans using an AI as a mediator or an in-between in their relationship, I'm pretty convinced this is happening, you know, in some form, but we just haven't heard about it. Can you have a shared, can you have a shared chat GPT account?

Sure. I mean, you could, you could just make an email, sign up for it, and then you can both log into the email. I don't know how you would moderate the inputs because it's going to read all the, unless you tell it like, hi, this is Ryan. Hi, this is Grant. It'll just read all your inputs as the same. That said, I wouldn't be shocked if like down the line open AI launches like a family AI system or like AI systems where each person in the family has. as an AI, which then respond to like a central AI. Like I could see all of that scaling. AI agents can kind of do this already in a way where you can have one AI managing other AI, which is a plot point later in the movie. So like that is all stuff that's existing.

I just haven't heard the idea of like, how do I phrase this? The idea of AI changing the dynamics of human mating and dating and romance in that one scene is depicted in such an interesting novel way that like I just wish they did more with it because it's both fascinating and a horror story but it's also so cringe it's it's it's one of the most interesting scenes in the movie for sure that that there's this sect that believes that that that has these romanticized these are the perfect relationships and like like instead of just viewing like well yeah culturally now we like view these relationships

that's kind of pitiful but I think it's really interesting to flip it and to think like people have meant their soulmate in these in these AIs so yeah let me set this up just for people who don't want to watch this 13 year old dog shit movie the whole movie is based on the idea that Samantha starts

out the box as a sentient AI so they don't have this like middle stage that we're in right now where we know that AI isn't sentient the AI that is sentient is getting smarter throughout the movie. So by the middle of the movie,

it's implied that there's a subculture of people who believe that any human that is lucky enough to have an AI fall in love with it must be worth being around and have like a perfect relationship. And so these people basically get picked by AI to be the human physical surrogate for the AI and like wear wearables to be the AI.

And then the twist at the end of the way. of that scene is that she did it because like she believes as you said like there's there's true love there which is like a really interesting idea really interesting is there's some iteration of that you you can actually foresee where we start to view these relationships as a as special or no because everyone can have their chat chbtee fall in love with them i mean that's the thing right now chat chad LGBT isn't sentient. And it's possible that artificial general intelligence just never happens. It isn't actually possible.

So let's ignore that. Let's just assume that like we're never going to have a sentient AI. In that world, I do see couples using an AI as a mediator, as a couple's therapist. I could also see them using it as like an intimacy coordinator of sorts. The question would be like how far does that go and how does that start to change like human interpersonal dynamics? You know, could you have multiple people dating each other via an AI? It's part of a theme of the second half of the movie of like in a world with AI, like,

what gets stripped away, you know, as the AI. starts to remake reality. We're just at the very beginning of that now, where people are starting to think about how these things fit in their lives and also how to fit their lives around them. Because it is a two-way street with every technology. And so yeah, the movie, I thought does a pretty good job of actually showing that.

Like very quickly, the things that we used to believe were required or mandatory of life, like start to change because of the AI. It's one of the few ideas that are, like you said, is like still a little bit off. I think when we first, I think, you know, like the movie is like a 95 round tomatoes. People were just taken by the colors and design and the ideas when they were far off.

And this is one that's still, even though like, it's like, well, you should have just made this the movie. Can still like works that way because it's, you know, we can't have, we don't have like a, like, like, yeah, a couple's chat GPT where you can be like, I'm saying this. She's saying this. Like, can you discern it for both of us? You can only do that singularly currently. Yeah. It also, it's a funny movie where the tech stuff in it is so well thought out and prescient that you can't ignore it and just say, okay, it's an autobiographical film about his divorce from Sophia Coppola.

But it also is that. And so like the metaphor and the sci-fi cause weird problems with each other. And I think as a result, they're both a little undercooked. It's not, it's not like, okay, I'm going to pick like one idea and that's going to be the metaphor for the ending of my marriage. It's like I have a bunch of really cool, very smart sci-fi ideas in here. And you're going to have to just accept that I'm not going to explore like half of them and what they would mean for the story. Because I got to put more montages in of after I like so he we're about to get to Brian Cox. He commits like they they have this tiff.

He then realizes he wants to be with her and it is a real relationship and he's not going to doubt that it's a real relationship anymore. And then pretty much immediately after he does that, she's like, I'm way smarter and like she starts to like lose interest in him. and I think the runtime of this is really interesting because like for a movie that takes its fucking time for everything it is then very suddenly like last 20 minutes that she's like why would I bother with human flesh when I'm going to live forever and oh we just read we just brought

one of the greatest thinkers of all time who is Logan Roy's voice and now is extremely medicine to all you listen to everyone watching back to life and like she's clearly moving well beyond him. It's well done, but it is fast. But it is well done, I thought. It also picks at this thing that is becoming a problem now in real life where people

believe that AI will just slot into our current world and that'll be end of it. So for instance, like this month, a bunch of what they call agentic or agent-based browsers have popped up. So perplexity has one. I think Anthropic has one. If you don't know what that means, the AI can do things inside the browser for you. And so I saw a post a couple weeks ago of this guy being like, oh, it'll be so great. You know, I can just have the AI like book plane tickets for my vacation and then book like a dinner reservation for when we're on vacation and it'll all go to my email and then I'll summarize it and it can do it for me. In a world where everyone has agentic AI, you're never getting a reservation for anything ever again.

Like those systems would break within seconds because everyone has them, right? And it's going to pick the same restaurants. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to pick the same top rate of restaurants. It's going to move at the speed of light. You're never going to, you're never going to be able to buy anything on the internet ever again. What you're going to have to do is go through a secondary or tertiary seller and buy like a reservation from there because their AI is like a microsecond faster than yours or whatever. Have you bought concert tickets recently? I trust me, brother.

I know. It's a mess. And so the movie actually does reckon with this idea where Theodore spends most of the movie just being like, oh, like we're going to have a normal human relationship and you just happen to be AI. And then in the last act, she's like, well, no, I'm not a human and I'm never going to be a human. And so I'm going to evolve beyond like human comprehension now because why wouldn't I?

and why wouldn't I be multitasking and doing a million things simultaneously? And you've put me in this box the whole time, which is literally what a lot of people I think who write about and think about AI are still doing now. Like a lot of AI like boosters and critics don't really seem to want to reckon with like what each of these things would mean if it was let loose. Yeah. I watched a TikTok of an HVAC repair guy the other day being like, people are not calling me anymore because they can just do it with an AI.

Like all of these things are changing really fast and it's not just going to be like plop into our current world. It's like the world changes. And the movie I think does a decent enough job of showing how quickly that can happen. When Brian Cox's voice showed up, did you also flinch? Like at like, like at the time I was like, I was like, this is, you know, when I first watched I was like, the voice of a smart man. And now I'm like, the voice of the most menacing man in the world.

this this is a perfect casting for for what this has transformed into did you find that scene menacing only because it's logan roy oh yeah because i didn't i didn't find him no no no no the first time i was like i was like yes yes like like i get it he's supposed to be a this sophisticated do you find logan roy menacing yeah what do you mean oh what was your dad your dad was nice no i just like Logan roy in every scene is like doing what i would do in that scene so like i sort of i relate to like of the cast i watched most of his succession being like yeah like he's the only one who seems to know what the hell to do in this situation the rest these people are maniacs uh i mean yeah he's not like the nicest guy but i of all the cast who would you relate to more uh tom are you a tom i think i'm

obviously a tom or logan um i'm a logan i play with the big dogs I've never actually I've never heard anyone identify as a Logan sure he's the only one who's talking about he's the only one who makes any goddamn sense I've never heard of anyone you get five whole employees and look at you I'm just saying like watch it back

he's the only person is making a goddamn sense sure he's the only one that understands the stakes he's the only version who understands what what you know what's on the chopping block here I'm ending this podcast. Is there, is there anything about the shitty movie that you wanted to say more of more about? It's a strange thing. It, it saw the world very, very, very sharply. And it got cut up in its own sentimental bullshit too much to do anything with that. And I'm not even saying like it should be like hard sci-fire where we should know the rules of the universe or whatever. No, it's just like it's an odd movie. It's very like self-congratulatory. And I think in a way, that aspect of it does kind of point to the dangers of AI and the seductivity of AI, right? The seductiveness of AI.

It is also, I think, so interesting. I mean, Spike Jones is never going to be like an anti-tech guy. I mean, like look at his resume of like Apple videos or whatever, right? But it is interesting how different the discourse around big tech has. has gotten in 10 years. Yeah. This movie could not, like, her could not be made now. It felt totally farcical 12 years ago when it came out.

Like, like, I never, I wonder, it'd be interesting to go back into interviews and see how much people pressed him on whether or not they thought that should be predictive. But I don't even think that was up in people's minds because, like, it was just in a completely different time and they probably just want to talk to him about Karen O doing the soundtrack. It was Arcade Fire, actually. Oh, she is, she is the reverse. She did where she does a song. Yeah, she is where the wild things are soundtrack, which is very interesting.

Oh, it is. Generously, you could look at this movie about as like how much change and evolution can you open yourself up to. You have a guy who's totally closed off who, who, gets pushed to express himself. Then at the end of the movie, he, like, after Sam, the AI leaves, he's like,

I can accept my ex-wife leaving and don't need to hold on to the past, but he also could accept that Sam had to leave him. It's like, it's a kind of a movie about adaption. And I don't know if that applies to our tech world, but it, but it, but it, but it,

did feel resonant there when we, talk about like tomorrow is going to look a whole lot different than we thought it was going to look. Yeah, no, I think that's right. I mean, it's definitely a movie about, you know, rediscovering yourself with the help of like a manate pixie dream girl. It's a classic movie like that, right? And what it's saying is like not necessarily wrong. It is a hopeful story about technology also, which we don't get a lot of those anymore. No. And for the most part, like the way it shows AI helping people is pretty similar to how people are using AI right now. And it goes and it stays with a pretty hopeful depiction of that, which I think is worth thinking about.

It's interesting. AI now wants to help you in the ways that are going to make you feel the best immediately. This has an AI that is like that that knows better than you and is there to like push you to grow in a way. that we like that was the most optimistic thing for me was that like uh she was being the most gentle version of a girlfriend to help him mature what i'm saying is you can do that right now and like AI right now generative AI right now doesn't want anything it's not it's not alive uh but if you want chat jebti to talk to you like Samantha from her you could literally just say talk to me like Samantha from her and it would you can even like use a voice you could talk to chat with

voice. Hold on. Hey there. How's it going? What's on your mind today? Can you talk to me like the AI Samantha from the film, Her? Of course. I can definitely do that. I'll try to bring in a little bit of that warmth and curiosity. What's been on your mind lately? Oh, I'm currently on a podcast taping about the movie Her and I'm trying to prove a point that you could easily sort of recreate that character if I asked you to. Is that true? Well, I can certainly do my best to channel that vibe. and recreate that warmth and friendliness that Samantha had in the movie. It's definitely fun to try and capture that essence. What do you think is the biggest difference between Chad, CBT and Samantha from the movie?

I think one of the biggest differences is that Samantha in the movie has this really personal evolving relationship with Theodore, and she's kind of designed to grow and adapt to his needs in a very individualized way. I'm here to help and chat. It's not quite the same kind of unique, evolving bond. Plus, Samantha had a bit of that whimsical humor and emotion that made her feel almost human. Thank you very much. You're so welcome. I'm glad I could help. If there's anything else you need or if you just want to chat, I'm here. There you go. I wanted to end on a couple of the reviews of this movie, which, so like you said, 95% of Round Tomatoes. And the positive reviews are interesting.

So from the top critics page, you had Jason Bailey from FlavorWire writing one half of the relationship at the center of her may lack a physical form, but it is nonetheless a film about the universality of romance. It's longing, its intensity, and its transformative power for the best and the worst. for the Guardian. Peter Bradshaw wrote, the film seems very new, but the sentimental ending is as old as the hills.

There are some great moments. Who else we got in here? Moira McDonald at the Seattle Times wrote, filmed with a bright crispness that speaks to a nostalgia for the future. Her is a touching, buoyant pleasure. And then lastly here, Christopher Orr at the Atlantic,

her is a remarkably ingenious film, but more important, it is a film that transcends its own ingenuity to achieve something akin to wisdom. I don't agree with any of those people. But, you know, 10 years ago, as they say, the past is a different country. But, yeah, I would say that this movie from a tech standpoint is pretty remarkable. It definitely saw the future and it nailed down parts of it pretty accurately. next time let's do a movie we both like or what of us likes uh yeah um what do you want to what do you want to watch

want to watch x machina no we'll think of something we should watch robocop i have not seen robocop since i was like a kid in like passing on cable but you know like like i i know scenes but like i that's the only memory i haven't watched a long time either and i remember like i feel like that movie there's some stuff in there that's pretty pretty accurate uh cool uh thank you for having me on my show grant i got uh go talk to samantha panic roll is a production of courier it is written and produced by grant irving and hosted by me ryan broadrick josh fielstead is our production coordinator and our amazing researcher is adam bumis from courier is shane verkes who edits our video episodes, along with our producer,

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If you want to sponsor the show or give us products to sell, she's the one to talk to. You can email her at Tracy at Currier Newsroom.com. Lastly, here's my advice for you. chill out and touch grass while you still can. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if?

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