Panic World - The original looksmaxxer who created our hell world

Episode Date: September 23, 2026

Who created the strongman hellscape that we’re currently living in? Today, we’re talking about the original looksmaxxer, Zyzz. He got his start online in 2006 with a popular World of Warcraft streaming account, whose earnings he used to join a gym, because he’d “always been obsessed with bodybuilding.” By 2010, he had amassed a huge following among outrageously jacked guys online. He finally figured out how to make money off this — by hawking supplements and other products — but then he passed away in 2011. However, by then he had laid the blueprint that the chads of the future would all follow. What happens next, is the world we live in now. Noah K of Crimes New Roman joins us to talk about the chads of the past, like Bloat Lord, Derb, and FPS Russia, and how these leading musclemen resulted in the big boys of the present, like Androgenic, Clavicular, and Zeta — and how they’ve managed to create a hell world of body dysmorphia for the nation’s young men. Our guest Noah K can be found on YouTube @CrimesNewRoman and you can also see their shitposts (their words) at https://bsky.app/profile/crimesnewroman.bsky.social. Note: This episode was recorded prior to Clavicular’s rape allegations. Want even more Panic World content? Like ad-free episodes, bonuses & exclusives, and access to our members-only Discord? Sign up for a membership at https://www.patreon.com/PanicWorld. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The internet is unfortunately real life. It has completely transformed the way we interact, communicate, connect, understand the world. And those shifts now show up everywhere from our relationships to our beliefs. And we should talk about it somewhere that's not on the internet, which is why I have this podcast. I'm John Favreau, host of offline. Each week, I try to make sense of these forces shaping our lives. I talk to strategists, authors, and researchers who've stepped outside of our toxic online paradigm to help get a better understanding of what's actually going on. New episodes drop every Saturday.

Listen wherever you get your podcast or watch on YouTube. Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. Before clavicular, there was the top-ranked Chad of all time, a guy who created the entire nightmarish, masculine bodybuilder, strong man hell world that we're currently trapped inside. And that man's name is, of course,

Ziz. And today we're going to be talking about the legacy of Ziz and how he made every boy on the internet in the 2000s have severe body dysmorphia and probably, you know, change the political course of American history. You myron, bro. Come at me, bro. Okay, so who is your favorite? So to start things off, who's your favorite internet, Chad, right now? Right now, the adrogynous guy, however you pronounce his name, it's really fascinating because despite being like very interwoven with people like, publicular, he like gets a little woke on his Instagram sometimes, but then immediately like backs down in weird ways and it's just really fascinating to try and predict what he's going to do next. I too have noticed androgynous wokeness. Yeah, it seems like he's kind of experimenting with like, like,

like how positive he can be about trans people, which is sort of interesting. I also get the sense that he's he's the most sort of willing to go wherever the attention is. Like I don't get the sense that he's like a hardcore radical as much. Like if if he discovered that trans people really liked him, I think he would flip and just become like baby no money or like, you know, he would just sort of go full into whatever the audience wants him to be. 100%. Like I saw a video of his the other day where he basically said something along the lines of like, oh, for a while, I thought that the only thing that women worried about were how to get their next man or how to like, you know, look pretty. But actually that they worry about getting assaulted all of the time. It was like, wow. Oh, okay. Which is weird because like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's really hung out with people like Sneko. or Andrew Tate like Clivicular has? So, okay, my understanding of the clavicular lore and the, no, okay, my understanding of the androgynous lore is that clavicular was frame-mogged in Scottsdale.

You remember? Yeah. And after clavicular was frame-mogged by the ASU frat leader in Scottsdale, androgynick flew from Australia to Scottsdale trying to find clavicular to also frame-mog him or at least frame mug the ASU frat leader. And then I think they finally linked up in Miami and Androgynik and him sort of hung out a few times And Androgenic was there when clavicular overdose to Miami

And was offering him an Adderall as he was having some kind of seizure. I remember that. Just a guy trying to help. I'm going to say for our listeners, like if you're really put off by everything you've heard so far, like it's not really going to get better today. But we are sort of going back in time. And we're going to be talking about Chads of a different era.

But first, this is Panic World. A show about how the internet warps our minds, our culture, and eventually reality. With me, as always, is my top-ranked Chad, Grant. And our guest today, another top-ranked Chad, someone who has mastered the art of looks maxing. From the YouTube channel, Crimes New Roman Noah Kay, welcome to the show. Hello, hello. Thank you for having me on. I'm super excited to be here and mug both of you.

I hate to ask this because it's not a very sort of, you know, HR-friendly question, but roughly how old are you? I am 33 years old. Like just turned 33. Okay. We're in the kind of same age cohort. I'm 25, but like, yeah, we're basically sort of the same age. What's your earliest memory of not looks maxing? I think that's what it's called now, but what's your earliest memory of what I guess I would call like an internet chat, like a big muscle man on the internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see. This is like. like a little bit of a weird answer, but like one of the earliest like weird, tough, masculine figures that I can kind of remember is FPS Russia. I don't know if you guys know him.

Like he does some weird shit happen and then he vanished. But I just like have still these like almost vivid hallucinations of this like Chad guy with like giant guns just blasting them. in the forest in a thick Slavic accent. Kyle Lamar Myers, uh, who goes by the name FPSR S or FPS Kyle. I guess some people thought he died, but I get, I don't think he, he didn't die, but the co-owner of his like gun fabrication company died or something. Yes, I vaguely remember all this. Um, okay, interesting, very interesting. We're today talking about the Chad that I remember as being the

earliest, which as a spoiler, we're going to be talking today about Ziz. Not the Zizians, which is a cult that has been on our to do list for this show for a long time. We were talking about Ziz. Before we get to Ziz, I would like to show you there is a Chad, an internet Chad, that I have sort of been obsessed with for a long time, who when I first discovered him made me laugh so hard, I actually had to leave work for a while. Like I had to go take a walk. Have you ever heard of the bloat lord the bloat lord blow lord no okay hold on so his real name i'm going to try my best to pronounce this is kiriakos kapakoulaq he is a uh Greek body build no i would say he counts as a strong man here let me share let me share my screen oh i've seen pictures of this guy

He was dubbed the bloat lord by 4chan. Yeah. He is insanely funny looking. I can't find the actual 4chan post that like kicked all of this off. But someone was like, you have to bloat yourself to increase sexual dimorphism between the sexes. And like this is peak male physique. Zeke. I do think he's some kind of white nationalist. No. Which would make sense. I mean, he's on 4chan and he's a Greek, he's a Greek muscle man.

But he also goes by the grizzly. And yeah, when I first learned about his existence, I laughed so hard. I had, I had to go like take a walk around the block. I've, for sure, seen pictures of him online and scattered places over the years, but I didn't realize that his moniker was the bloat lord that's that's insane and one of the earliest sort of like maxing suffix constructions i came across was bloat maxing blow maxing god that's horrifying this would have been like two thousand uh let's see i can i can tell you exactly when it was because i have the know your meme page for bloat lord up right now um he was discovered in 2018 by four shan users who dubbed him the bloat lord Another question for you.

Noah. Are you familiar with the website that ranks Chads? Yes. Yes, I am. Okay. All right. I'm going to pull up some screenshots from the Chad ranking site, and we're going to go through some of it. This is, by the way, listener, listener, this is all on the road towards Ziz, but I want to sort of establish first principles here.

So Grant has them pulled up here. This is, this is the number one ranked Chad right now. And he goes by the name Zeta. Seda. And I'm going to read a bit of his bio. out here. They also have tags. Genetic apex. Yeah, he's tagged with hunter eyes as well, which is interesting. I don't know what that means. Maybe like Hunter Biden. You don't know what it means that he has hunter eyes. Look at his eyes. I guess you're right. So, okay, according to

according to top rank chads, the website that ranks all the chads, Zeta is an online personality who is part of the OG looks maxers known for his perfect hunter eyes, glassy skin, and high PSL rating. Uh, I have to remind myself a P. Uh, P. Uh, cell means, unless you remember Noah. Do you remember what it means? Oh, is that just like the overall score that you have for the quality of your arranged features? Yeah.

Oh, I'm sorry. No. Okay. It's actually way and more insane than that. It's an acronym for, okay, this is actually a really good way to get into this because all right. We're already moving all over the timeline here. We try to do our best to keep things chronological for simplicity's sake.

But so the world that we live in now was created by basically three websites in the late 2000s, early 2010s. One of them was PUAHate.com. And this was a message board for men who took pickup artist classes and they got mad that they felt like they were ripped off and they would complain about it. Slut hate, which was sort of an offshoot of Pua hate. And lookism, which was sort of the early. like it was like one of the earliest hangouts online for like men with like severe body dysmorphia PSL rating stands for Pua hate, slut hate, and luxism. Oh, that's what it's got and like the rating is like an amalgamation of like everything

related to those basically. Yeah, because slut hate is a rebrand of Pua hate. Yeah. And so this rating is sort of I mean honestly honestly pretty useful to sort of combine like like an umbrella rating for like men on the internet. Sure. Kind of useful. So Zeta, according to his bio, has a perfect or a very high PSL rating.

I guess people are very conflicted about whether or not he has good genes or if he had surgery. And people have accused him of mystery maxing about this. Mystery maxing, which I'm assuming means maintaining a high amount of obfuscation around whether or not he has actually had surgery. And everything else in his life. I guess he's like a real. And that's probably why he's number one.

You know, he's kind of got like a tuxedo mask vibe. Kind of, you know, like you don't really know much about him. Yeah, he, he almost looks AI generated. I want to be real. He does. This next guy, number two on the Chad ranking site, looks even more AI generated. His name is V. Mogsu, who once again is apparently very mysterious. He's my favorite.

This is your favorite boy. I think. Yeah. I like, well, so, okay, a couple things. If you go over to his bio, he's described as a humble maugger, fascinating. And he also has a tag on it that says true jester. So he's some sort of, he's like a humble jester. And according to his bio, it says, VMoggs,

you is a mysterious online personality who rose to fame for his amazing looks, but more specifically, his side profile. After being openly accepted in the looks maxing verse, he started gesture maxing while dancing on camera. truly bringing to life the words, Chad does what Chad wants. He made the worst faces or grimaces on camera, and still the online community couldn't deny his greatness. I feel like I'm having a stroke trying.

Like take all of this. I feel like this guy looks like all of the really, really like, just like extremely unhealthy anorexic models that you would see in the 90s. like he looks like he looks like a sick dog he looks like someone's inbred he looks like your grandmother's old imbred people that's what he looks like like the dog like the crusty eyes yes yes i feel like i have seen multiple of this guy at like a combo less out okay we got one more we got one more top rank chad for you so this is this next one's name is derb Derb let's fucking go.

I'm ready for this. And Derb is the number three top ranked Chad right now. As of June 11th, 2026. These change all the time. Derb. The golden boy? That's his that's his like fucking tag on a golden boy. He's the golden boy.

So Durb is a social media influencer who is mainly popular on TikTok. He is part of the new gen aesthetics group as he is often seen with Dorian Sarasi, Sarasi, Hunter Davis, and ASU frat leader Varus. I know him, but fans are worried that he might be ghosting them as he recently met up with Hello and Romulus, fully embracing his looks like to exercise. Say it ain't so. So, okay, so he's friends with hello. I'm going to look him up.

Oh, okay, interesting. he was recently arrested for a possession of child abuse material oh good for him yeah in may uh he he was he was arrested for for having child abuse material as to appear i don't know like none of these guys really hold a candle to the bloat lord for me yeah like they're like they all kind of look the same to a certain degree like they do which is which you know like makes sense because broadly speaking a lot of like the ideal face that all of these guys want like if they could have the ideal face they would basically all look the exact same i'm glad you brought that up because you know we we we started with mentioning clavicular just for click hold on i got to share my screen all right so i was going over i was going

over the top the i got to say while ryan's while ryan's losing a shit there's things on our outline that are marked ryan don't open this until the episode starts so we get these more Okay, hold on. Grant, don't share. I'm going to put my screen in the theater, but don't share it yet, okay? I'll tell you when. Yes, top rank chat. Okay. So, so I wanted to go over to the top ranked Chad rankings and talk about how, you know, interestingly enough, clavicular is the number four ranked chat. You know, he's never been number one, actually. And what I was curious about and why I wanted to check was I thought, oh, well, maybe clavicular's botched nose. job may have affected his Chad rankings. And so, okay, Grant, you can share the screen now. I went over to the official Chad rankings and there's a widget at the top of the page that says breaking news, clavicular depressed.

And it's all about how he went live the other day to talk about his nose job and how it looks really bad and how his career is a luxemaxer might be completely over. That's insane. I can't believe it. My goal is washed. Like he looks better because he looks like a human for the first. No, no, no, no, it's, uh, hold on. The clavicular nose job has looked so bad.

Oh, I haven't actually seen it. I got to look at it. Hold on. Uh, it, like he, he realized on camera the other day that like, he looks terrible. He looks awful. Um, oh, that looks not very good. Take my word for me. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. It's not great. It does not look good at all. Good Lord. This is all, if you can believe it, dear listener. This is all set up for where we're going. today. We're going to be talking about the original looks maxer, a Chad that was taken from us too soon. We're going to be talking about Ziz. And before we go to a break, I want to get your sort of initial

reactions, Noah, about Ziz. Are you familiar with Ziz? Is this ringing any bills? I'm not recognizing this guy from anywhere. I don't recognize the name. I think this like might be like some brand new chat that i've just straight up never heard before which is fascinating oh i'm excited so his name is uh aziz or ziz uh shvercian he's from australia and he starts a youtube account called zz z y z z z z z in 2006 and when he turns 18 he ends up sell it which is about a year after that he sells his world of warcraft profile for five hundred dollars wow uh if you're curious he was a level 14 Terran warrior. That's pretty beta, but you know.

I agree. But he uses that money, crucially, to buy a gym membership. Grant has a before photo for Ziz here. This is what Ziz looked like before he sold his World of Warcraft account to buy a gym membership. Damn. I got called gay in middle school all the time by dudes who looked like this. Yeah, yeah. This was like a type of guy.

Like this was absolutely a type of guy in the 2000. I don't know if it still is. And before we go to the break, I want to read a quote from him about how he got started with bodybuilding and why. He said at the time in an article published in Simply Shredded.com, throughout high school, I was always an extreme ectomorph. I would eat anything and not put on fat, muscle, or weight or so I thought. I was always fascinated with bodybuilding, but lacked the motivation to start training hard until after I was done with my final year of school and exams were completed. It was time for a lifestyle change.

I remember feeling like a little bitch when I was out with girls, walking next to them and clubbing the same size as them. And I started going clubbing every weekend and always noticed whenever a Jack dude walked by, they had a presence a lot greater than that of a normal person. The guys respect them and the girls are all over them. And really, who wouldn't want that? We're going to talk about what happens after Ziz is fully leaned in to the world of bodybuilding. After a word from our sponsors, maybe creatine finally for Grant. Maybe we finally have a creatine sponsor for this episode.

I don't know. Let's see what happens. Look, I'm getting smaller. I need your help. All of Grant's creatine water weight is going away unless he can refill it with creatine. He's wasting away. The internet is unfortunately real life. It has completely transformed the way we interact, communicate, connect, understand the world.

And those shifts now show up everywhere from our relationships to our beliefs. And we should talk about it somewhere that's not on the internet, which is why I have this podcast. I'm John Favreau, host of offline. Each week, I try to make sense of these forces shaping our lives. I talk to strategists, authors, and researchers who've stepped outside of our toxic online paradigm to help get a better understanding of what's actually going on. New episodes drop every Saturday, listen wherever you get your podcast, or watch on YouTube. Where some see heroes and others see egos, Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. A fad to some, the future of money.

to others. We see crypto's trillion dollar swings, the end of jobs, or the end of human struggle. We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. Noah, what were you up to on the internet in the 2000s? What was sort of your information diet, your digital ecosystem? What did that look like? So I was very much, a lonely, lonely stringy nerd that, like, had trouble socially. So I was on the internet in a lot of unpleasant places. I was on 4chan a lot.

Eventually, in my very dark days, I remember frequenting the website, Funny Junk, if you guys remember that. I remember Funny Junk, yeah. And then eventually, like, got into YouTube. I would say I had maybe like just brushing up the edge of the like early red pill in cell type mentality because of like, you know, issues like growing up and home life shit and being bullied or whatever. I don't know. Someone who looks like me being bullied, shocking. And eventually I like kind of grew out of my like edgy 4chan type phase after I saw.

slowly realized that women were people and I was bisexual. So, you know, that would help. Good things do happen over time to people. Yeah, you sort of touched on this dynamic, but it's one that I think has actually kind of been forgotten, which is that there were radicalized, you know, toxicly masculine spaces on the internet. But there was also sort of a layer that is now almost gone, I think, you know, when I came across pickup artists, I came across it via someone who looked and sounded like me making fun

of that stuff. Yeah. Same with bodybuilders. Like, but I knew of bodybuilding.com because of the something awful threads making fun of it. That layer, I think, has kind of been demolished because of concerted efforts from the right wing over the last like 15 to 20 years. So you don't have that like slightly more functional nerds making fun of even dumber, weirder nerds kind of thing.

Yes. Yes. I feel like now a lot of the time, like when something is being like highlighted or made fun of or mock a lot of it is just from like the other side of the aisle, which I think is like part of the broader disintegration of like the center and basically every aspect of culture. Yeah. There's there's definitely there's like a change that happens at some point between Occupy Wall Street and Gamergate where the the wider nerd world let's call it is sort of bifurcated into

Tumblr and 4chan types of communities that don't really have an overlap and you know I think there's a lot of different reasons for why that ends up happening but it does happen and it kind of creates this world where a guy like ziz can't really exist anymore and and to prove that let me read you another quote from ziz that i think is really hard to imagine someone like covicular saying today um so he's asked by again by simply shredded dot com i should just say i find extremely muscular men really funny and like there's just nothing to me that's not like funnier than like an outrageously jacked guy like i think the whole culture is dumb and really funny and like getting through this episode is going to be really tough for me um

there's a malcolm the middle episode where hal adopts like an army of muscle men and like i think about it all the time i just think it's so funny Yes. I've seen that. Simply shredded.com says, what's your favorite quote? And Ziz says, obsessed is a word the lazy used to describe the dedicated, which kind of goes hard, actually. Based. Yeah, what's funny about that? No, that's not funny.

The idea of like a guy never clocks in. An in-depth interview on simply shredded.com is really funny to me. I feel like that's something Elon Musk would say. I think. Yeah, but so, you know, what if Elon must look like ziz I would feel differently about it you know like yeah and that because this looks like an actual final fantasy character but yeah people in gate horn yes he also looks like well yeah I said final fantasy

character true so he then goes on to say my end goal is not to be some masked up freak but but rather to have a physique that can be looked at as art streamlined, tapered, and universally appealing. And then he's asked, what's your training philosophy? You know, what about your philosophy of life? This is the simplytreaded.com asking this. Ziz says definitely. Personally, I'm a very friendly and happy person and believe that people need to lighten up

and enjoy life more. Even though I put on a lot of size and to some look intimidating, I'm one of the friendliest people you can meet, which I think is like really lovely and like and like feels just like very innocent looking back on it 15 years later 20 years later looking in the past and like reading some of like you know like early like man influencer texts and ideology like this is infamous book called iron john in in the 90s by robert bly which is like kind of the surmounting text of the men's myth poetic movement like it has a lot of this like really like fluffy like warrior-coded language.

But at the core of it, it's just about like being like a well-rounded, nice person. It, like being in community with people and engaging in like mentorship, like presented in these really toxic ways. And I feel like over time, probably at least when when I noticed it, I'm glad you brought up GamerGate, because that's probably about when I would say, like, that was such a massive cultural moment where so many different. things were coalescing, like things were getting more radical. A lot of men were pulled into what was ostensibly this big, misogynistic, like,

borderline proto-fascist movement of like being able to be terrible people because you think you have a just cause. And I think a lot of people have like slowly come to believe that like they have a just cause to act like this because it is beneficial. to them as society has, you know, slowly drawn more and more to collapse. That kind of starting point with GamerGay and then just everything happened after it has like slowly pushed dudes to be more and more just abundantly selfish in how they view the world and like not left room for that kind of empathy.

Like it's why empathy as a concept is like mocked in so many circles. Like in my last big video I did, like I talk about how these dorks online who just harassed ask people for a living, make fun of empathy constantly. It's like a meme. It's crazy. You sort of triggered this thought in me that I have never actually kind of like followed through with and it's okay, I'm going to try my best to describe this because I, there were a bunch of different kinds of guys and like the jacked guys and the 4chan guys were

largely not the same kind of guys. There was the fit board on 4chan. But it was like before Gamergate, there was like this sort of self-loathing. And you know, you went into those spaces being like, you're watching guys sort of perform self-loathing and it's entertaining and it's funny. And post-Gamergate, all of those kinds of guys have sort of found a way to become the same kind of guy. Yes.

So like, you know, I'm looking at the comments on, uh, Zizz's bodybuilding.com profile. And they're, they're amazing. I mean, so you have this one guy who says, just read through your past threads. You're the fucking kingmate, but seriously, awesome transformation.

Another guy says, your pictures are awesome. Keep up your hard work and keep posting your progress. Another guy says, look and rip dude. How much do you bench? And then there's this one guy who wrote, Hey man,

love that chest, Pecks and those nipples, dude. You are one hot, well bit built dude. Ever think about piercing those nipples. I did. It is awesome, man. They are more sensitive and look great.

Email me and I'll tell you about the process. Mike, my fucking goat. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. That's so good. All of that, though, is just like impossible to imagine now. It's impossible to imagine people talking to each other this way about something like this.

Yeah, there is a change. And it doesn't happen immediately. I mean, just for timeline. sake like 4chan creates the fitness board fit in 2008 but that's not when this went away like there's something else that happened and I don't I don't totally know what it was I feel like one thing I've noticed over time is the shift in like basically what I can only describe as like lul cowism like the constant desire like it almost feels like the shift of a lot of content as a whole. And like, you know, I have made content about people calling them like weird

dork losers. So like I understand this. Like there is so much desire to listen to somebody not talk about like themselves and their life or like things and specifically have people talk about how terrible or bad somebody else is. And I feel like that's what so much content on like all sides of the spectrum is about like even if it isn't like an exceedingly negative way. It's so much commentary on other parts of the internet and other people rather than someone's like autonomous life or journey. Like it isn't it isn't a matter of like uplifting people through like positivity. It's about like basically making yourself feel better by dragging other people down. Yeah. I stumbled across like some data that I need to sort of look further into.

but it's a theory of mine that I can't get out of my head, which is that sort of troll culture is actually an economic byproduct. And I came across like these reports sort of around the rise of Neats in Japan. And everything I was reading was sort of arguing that the not education, I never remember this acronym. There's like so many takes to me on this on this show, like, forget. getting what it stands for, not in education, employment, or training. And I was looking at the history of Tuchan, which is sort of the precursor to fortune in Japan. And it was all based around like that recent story about diner goths. Do you remember this?

No. It was like this big piece from like some weird right wing mag that appeared out of nowhere, sort of going like why does everyone in the Midwest have to have to have. tattoos and look like they go to like anime conventions now and sort of like gawking at that. And why do they have like no prospects and why are they all sort of weird internet freaks now just in like flyover states? And like this thing that I kept coming up against was like if you look at historical moments of like peak online, let's call it localeism or troll culture or whatever, it does seem to sort of mirror economic downturns. But that doesn't totally explain why America had such a massive influx of it at the end of the Obama administration. Like, you're right, there's like a hatred or like a bucket of crabs feeling that has like become only more of a permanent feature of the American social media landscape in the last 15 years.

And it doesn't totally line up to the Great Recession. But like there's something there must be some other cause. Like I have to believe that there's some other cause. Yeah, no, I like I I find that fascinating because like I've also like wondered vaguely similar things. Like when people are like in these exceedingly dire economic straits combined with like, you know, the impending acceleration and rise of fascism in the post Obama era, people lash out because of these of this like hyper liberal like individual. dualist doc like in indoctrination that we basically all had that like we should never like help like it's all on me to like pull myself up blah blah blah and if something is wrong it's somebody else's fault like i am the perfectest specialist smartest little guy and i i'm not doing anything

wrong like it's somebody else who's fucking my life over you know it's it's like the all the maga people who are like oh it's the immigrants who were who were taking my job and taking things when it's actually the billionaires of the president or we're doing that you can kind of see the beginnings of that with ziz to bring us back to the muscle man du jour by 2010 he's built a following on bodybuilding.com and four chan the fit board is obsessed with him um he you know he's on youtube doing like memes to the camera like for four chan users he's like he's using like old looks maxer language like um my his big thing was you myron bruh as in are you admiring i remember that oh man that's vintage we should bring that one back he also is like answering questions on bodybuilding

message boards like this one i have here which says how much attention did you get before working out and and this is sort of a deeper look into his psychology here he says none i never hooked up with a girl until after i finished school yes strong loser never cared about the way i looked did my hair etc but that's because I had no self-confidence. As soon as I started going to the gym, my confidence skyrocketed and I have no trouble approaching or talking to any girl. And most of the time, they come up to me, seriously. One thing really stands out to me.

And I'm wondering if you notice this. So like, there's, this is, this is like very typical, I think, for how it looks, Maxers talk now in a lot of ways. But there's no sell. He's not selling anything. So he's able to say, like, it got better for me. there's a way to actually escape this. Here's how I did it.

But because the internet didn't provide him a way to directly monetize his bodybuilding via live streams or, you know, Andrew Tate style sex trafficking or whatever the hell, he's actually just sort of like, even though he's sort of talking like an in cell here, he's just earnestly like, yeah, my life got better and like there's no, there's no upsell there. Like I'm not trying to do anything beyond just tell you about it. which is like again like impossible to imagine now yeah no like i'm i'm i'm i'm sure you've seen clips of clavicular like saying how like everything he does like he feels pointless if he isn't streaming and monetizing like every aspect of his life uh while while like on camera doing stuff he has

his courses and and everything but like here we are seeing a time where you know it wasn't about selling a course or linking your drop shipping site or doing something like this was a legitimate group of albeit guys with flawed logic still trying to earnestly like improve the lives of themselves and provide encouragement for other people outside of a purely enrichment vehicle for them yes and i should be clear ziz was not really a good person uh sure especially to women here's an example I'll pull it up. So this is, these are leaked Facebook messages between him and a woman,

where she says, like, when are you taking me out? And he goes, never, L. Well, and he says,

I don't take out sluts. I just fuck them. You're a seven out of ten at best. You're a lucky guy like me would even put his dick in you. And I don't need to read the rest of this. But it's, that's, like,

this is all very typical of the time. He's videotaped a lot at, like, videotaped, that sounds so old, but he's, like filmed a lot. at like music festivals, talking to girls.

He's leaking their Facebook messages to him. Oh, yeah. Going through this, you can kind of see the beginnings of this stuff. And it is like interesting that like it is getting darker, both with the more attention he's getting from Fortune and the more handsome he's becoming and the more popular he's becoming. It is sort of a kind of a corruption of the soul sort of process we're watching here. Yeah. Yeah. Like you know, to be clear, I don't think any of these guys like good people,

But I do think there is a level of earnesty that they have in like wanting to improve themselves and provide legitimate advice for other people, even if they're like wildly misogynistic and do a bunch of other things outside. Yeah. And we talked about the monetization thing. And so while the internet really hadn't picked up with,

you know, it wasn't the internet of today where you could open up a TikTok account or a kickstream or whatever, you know, or you know, start hawking peptides, he, he did start. to try to monetize this by 2011. He gets popular enough that he can get, you know, brand deals. He's 22 years old. And so he becomes, uh, he offers like individual personal training.

He has a clothing line, which you couldn't find any pictures of, unfortunately, but I'm sure it's fucking awful. Um, hold on. I, I, uh, okay, I can't find any official images of Zizz's clothing line. But for our purposes today, let's imagine it looks something like this, which is one of my favorite photos of the 2000s. Oh, yes. I remember.

I remember this. Oh, that's so fire, dude. I think, I think this is like such a, so okay, for audio only listeners. Uh, this is a photo that was taken, like easily like 20 years ago. It's four guys in tank tops. One says, and the tank tops all have giant like neon block letters written on them. And one says, all I do is fuck and party. The other one says show me your tits.

The other one says party with sluts. The other one says, let's get. fucking weird and they're wearing little bow ties and they're wearing like neon hats to say rage on them and they all have like neon shorts i feel like i need to cover my drink just having this on screen right now like it is it is really really bad all these guys are vice presidents at jp morgan right look for our next merch drop that's right oh man we should do like neon millennial yes that'd be funny all i do is all i do with fuck sluts and listen Panic world?

That would be so good. Yeah. All I do is. All I do is eat creatine and listen to the panes. Let us know what should be on our day glow. Yeah. Our gym. Our panic world church.

Okay. You should you should have a shirt or a hat or something that says I got mugged on panic world. Yeah. That's really good. Okay. A bit of an aside, but kind of appropriate here. I learned the other day that on the Jersey Shore, I guess Mike, the situation, Sorrentino, whatever's name is, admitted this later.

When they said Jim Tan Laundry, the laundry was code for cocaine, which is why on the show, he would always ask how many girls are we getting tonight? And then they would give him a number. And then he would go, I'm going to go do Jim Tan Laundry. And the laundry, he would take the number of girls they told him and convert that into bags of cocaine. That's fired. That's some good math. That's actually, I think I couldn't do it. I think that's legit.

I have to do more researcher. I saw that pop up the other day. And so let's imagine that's real just in case it isn't. Okay, so back to Ziz, he has an e-book out called Zizz's Bodybuilding Bible, which according to Goodreads has a almost a perfect rating for 4.18 stars and the top comment. How many reviews? Nine reviews. Wow. All for me.

But 50 ratings. Oh, 50 ratings. Wow. Okay. Yeah. The most recent one in 2021, I'm sorry, the top rating right now is from someone named Lath, who wrote. In 2021, Ziz is a man that needs no introduction and aesthetic God and one of the most influential people in the online culture and community relating to bodybuilding and the aesthetics oriented inside of that took it to new heights, inspired millions to train and live fast and died young. Well, that's a bit of a spoiler for today's episode. In living a life related to partying hard, training hard, and then and taking Tren and kicking ass.

Tren would be steroids, correct? trend below an anabolic steroid yeah um and then he says that this book is a good introduction a primer to bodybuilding although apparently it is a bit dated um okay and uh then he also ziz also started selling protein powder called protein of the gods which cost 36 dollars which would be 50 dollars today with inflation for one kilogram and uh So I guess we should finish this now before we go to our next break. In 2011, Ziz dies. Rip.

He had just figured out how to monetize this. The internet had sort of just caught up to what he was doing. And he suffered a heart attack while on a vacation in Thailand while visiting a spa. The story I always heard was like he had a heart attack in like the sauna. And he died. But it wasn't due to taking a shitload of trend and training really hard. It's actually because he had a congenital heart defect he didn't know about. How old was he at this time?

22. She was 20, yeah, 22 years old. Damn, that sucks. But because he died so young and kind of like right as he was getting started, he has become something much larger in sort of the consciousness of the online bodybuilding world. And we're going to talk about the legacy of Ziz and how it leads to the top-ranked chads of today. Right after a word from our sponsors. Trenblone, an anabolic steroid that I'm sure is perfectly safe to take in huge doses.

The internet is unfortunately real life. It has completely transformed the way we interact, communicate, connect, understand the world. And those shifts now show up everywhere from our relationships to our beliefs. And we should talk about it somewhere that's not on the internet, which is why I have this podcast. I'm John Favro, host of Offline. Each week, I try to make sense of these forces shaping our lives. I talk to strategists, authors, and researchers who've stepped up to. outside of our toxic online paradigm to help get a better understanding of what's actually going on.

New episodes drop every Saturday, listen wherever you get your podcast, or watch on YouTube. Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. Like what do you think that, you know, sort of became of his, uh, his, his, his legacy? Let's see. There's, there's really only like a couple options.

Either he is completely forgotten about and lost time, which I, I don't, I don't necessarily think is the case or, um, people have presumably like, kind of emblazoned him in their memory and presumably taking a bunch of wild shit. he's done maybe and maybe like accelerated or amplified it or taken out of context to turn him into like some sort of like god or deity uh in a way that like exists outside of the actual sphere that he operated in yeah he he kind of ended up writing the playbook for everything in a way like you know the earliest you know selections from this world that we we talked about today they're very innocent. It's a lot of guys online being like, cool gains. I love your nipples. You

should pierce some stuff like that, normal stuff like that. And then it gets, you know, darker. You know, he's he's using his fame to, you know, brag about, you know, tormenting women. And he's just figuring out how to monetize this newfound fame right when he dies. He also has a ton, he has a ton of writing around the web that I think, you know, if you look at it now, you can kind of see that this creates the blueprint for everything that comes after. So, He's asked in an interview what his philosophy on nutrition was. And this is going to sound like I pulled it from RFK yesterday. So he says, no fast food, no soft drinks, no sweets or sugar, only fluid you shall drink

is water and green tea. I have never counted calories. I just make sure I get a good amount of protein in every meal and have around seven or eight separate meals a day as this ignites the metabolism. Basically to put on meat, you have to eat meat, chicken breast, steak, lamb, kangaroo. He was Australian. And if you don't love these already, you will learn to. Then they asked him, when you're trying to cut down, you prefer to use hit or just normal

cardio. Hit, I believe is some sort of workout routine. Is that correct? High intensity and revultry. Okay. Yeah. And he says, neither. If you have your diet 100%, you don't even have to look at the treadmill, which I think

is right. I think that's totally right. Most like really strong, beautiful men like don't do cardio. And he was also on a like rotating cocktail of steroids that is off that he would often refer to well, okay, he denied, uh, he denied that he was on steroids, but he would often talk about riding bicycles, which is a term for like cycling through a bunch of different steroids. He also had like people close to him admit like he was on a lot of steroids.

He becomes this like larger than life figure. are we found at least eight different tribute pages to him on Facebook that's that popped up like the year after he died all of his different like message board posts basically kind of continued on forever like you know he he is the reason you mad and you mad bro became a thing he also came up with come at me bro like he used the term myron like that comes from him Oh, wow. Like, he was kind of a prolific poster in this really, really fascinating way. I think this comic I have here, I'm going to share my screen, is kind of the best way to process his legacy.

So this is on Tumblr, and it's a comic. So the first one is like a green text soyjack guy that's like that feel would know GF. And then someone says, you just want to be a sad C word. I'm not Australians. I'm not going to say it. Bro. Fuck that shit, bro. You're a fucking sick C-word if you want to be.

And then the soy jack guy is like, you left us and he starts crying. And then it's. Oh, my God. It's a cartoon of Ziz hugging him. And he says, we're all going to make it, bra. Yeah, it's good stuff. I swear I've read Yahweh with that exact same panel progression. Like, that's crazy.

Wait, wait, wait, Yowie? Yeah, we. Yeah, we. Okay. Yeah. I thought you said, Yahweh, like the Old Testament God. No, not the, not, although it would be way more, way more interesting if that was, that was an end of the Torah or something like that. That would be very interesting. And so, yeah, like, like, if he had died a little earlier, I don't think he would have had the same impact.

In the same way that I had this theory that, like, little peep died just too early. And then machine gun Kelly cannibalized his career and sort of ruined the ascendantness of emo trap in a lot of ways. It kind of fucked it all up. Whereas like if you if you die a little too early, your thing kind of dies with you. But Zizz had just sort of mapped out like everything you could do with this and then died. Yeah. Which I think is really crucial.

That's that's a good point. Do you think like like that's part of the reason why somebody like juice world when when he passed away? Like he's had a much more enduring. legacy than low p because of of when he died yeah i think the same thing was sophy too yeah sophy like not not to compare ziz to sophy but like i think i think if you are sort of at the four i think if you're at the forefront of a cultural or artistic movement and you if you if you're like okay like this is how you do this and you die you kind of become the the pinnacle of it

it and you sort of loom over it. And if you don't crack it, like it sort of splinters into a million different directions, Ziz had just figured this out. Like, you can become a famous strongman on the internet. And then there's an entire industry of like, you know, male improvement shit that you can latch onto and you can post on the internet and people will take it really, really seriously. And that is basically what clavicular and all the rest are doing now.

The only real innovation that I've seen in this space is the Andrew Tate sort of like sex trafficking, like only fans management stuff where like even clavicular is like signing quote unquote only fans models. I don't know if people know about this. Like he's done live streams where he's like just signed a new girl. And he's making his money from quote unquote managing like seven or eight only fans models. And that's like a passive income source for him. But other than that, everything he's doing is is figured out first. Like there isn't a lot of innovation because there really isn't like any thing to point to. Like there isn't like a new direction for them to go. It's like the same like hyper individualist like very capitalist mindset that has basically been the exact same thing for like decades and decades at this point.

Like there isn't like a vision for men to point to because they're so busy like trying to basically get to the top of this very limited structure to basically be the guys on top. That's why like there are so many like dog shit like gendered products that exist like dude wipes or gamer subs or man cereal. I don't know if you guys see man serial but that shit's fucking crazy. Finally cereal for men. Hold on. Do you have some? Wow, I love this buildup. This rocks.

I have. Is it good? It's fucking horrible. I bet. I bet it tastes like fucking dog food. So bad. What's the protein count in it, though? The more important question that I want to ask you guys is, how much do you think a box of this is?

$34.99. Honestly, pretty close. A box of this is $20. Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. It tastes like garbage. And they, they, come on camera. Come on camera.

but it says sweet, smoky, and Sigma as the descriptors for their... I don't want smoky cereal. Just so bad. For the audio-only listeners, Noah is holding up a box of cereal that is titled Man Serial, and it just looks awful. I... Yeah, this is what the next big video I'm working on is about a big deconstruction of modern masculinity through Man Serial, and it's fucking horrible, but I can talk about it for hours,

So don't how savory is the man cereal so like could I could you put hot sauce on it? I don't think any condiment would improve it at all like not even like barbecue sauce the maple bacon is like it's super weird because it starts out with like a nice little hint of maple which I was like ooh this is actually quite nice and then the bacon part like hits you like a freight train at the end and it's like you're eating dog food like it is so horrible like I I would want to mix it with anything or else I feel like I'd legitimately throw up. A year or two ago, I like got really serious about, yeah, like, nutrition, because I was like working from home and I wasn't going a lot of places and I was like really out of shape.

So like I started like a yoga and calisthenics routine and I tried to like fix up my diet because I was spending a lot on delivery and I was like, I can cook. Like why not just like learn how to do this? And what I was so, what I continued to be so confused about are the bodybuilders on the internet that don't season their food. Like seasoning has no nutritional value. you, you could take that chicken breast and absolutely blast the shit out of it with like paprika, salt and pepper at the very least.

If you want to get crazy, some garlic powder, some onion powder, just like fucking massage that shit, let it soak a little bit of like heart healthy olive oil. You can do that, but they don't. They like hurt themselves and punish themselves for and eat dog food. And I don't understand why. Like I just, I can't wrap my head around it. Yeah. Yeah.

Like in the entire aesthetic of like the ideal man, it is fundamentally like, like anti-whimsy, like anti-joy, because it's so utilitarian. Like, if you look at the, like, male living space images where it's like an empty room with a TV on the floor and, like, a chair meant for outside that is in the middle of your, of their living room. Like, like, it is a form of like, like, they think they're being utilitarian and minimal. Like, they think that, like, they don't need anything else.

This is how the ideal man should live. Very like weird, like stoicism, minimalism vibe. But they're just torturing themselves because that's what like what they think they have to do to perform as a man. Like me as a man wearing my little earrings and having my little stuffed cat and like doing all that shit. Like that is anti-man because it's anti-utilitarian. And it just makes me feel bad for these guys. It makes me feel really sad. I came across a Sam Hyde clip like this morning.

He's a failed chud comedian. Believe me. I'm very familiar with Sam. Right wing comedian. He's the one that always, for listeners, he's the one that always gets misidentified as school shooters because his fans are as awful as he is. And he has this like viral clip going around. The quote from it is him saying, if you are not always burdened, you are not a man.

And he's basically him for like 35 seconds arguing that like, feeling any kind of joy or happiness is inherently gay and unmasculine and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it is sort of like, and he's a comic. His job is to make people laugh. I mean, he's a, he's not, he started as a comedian with an adult swim show and it got canceled because he kept hiding a bunch of like MAGA 1.0 memes in it. And like, then he got, he got fired from that. And he's sort of just like been circling the drain of culture ever since. But that is a perfect distillation.

of what you're talking about, Noah, where it's like any form of happiness, it's not that these guys can't be happy, actually. It's that any form of happiness that's not derived from the suffering of others, like makes them uncomfortable because there's no power to be taken. Yes, it's all about power. So it's like, I can, they can feel happy if they're tormenting someone else. But if they can't find a way to feel happy while feeling powerful, they would rather feel miserable. Yes. It goes back to like these people's aversion to even the idea of empathy because it's seen as a form of weakness and unnecessary emotion. It like it was Bell Hooks who talked about how like men's like anger is a resource essentially. And that is what a lot of these guys are capitalizing on is the anger that all of these guys have from sometimes like legitimate.

like reasonable things just from how society is constructed. And then, however, they're finding these communities that are instead of teaching them how to like think more broadly and distill that anger and like better themselves in a healthy way, that anger is now a currency that they can use to make themselves feel better by the meeting other people. That's 100% right. And to finish our story today and sort of like, like loop it all the way back.

I did not realize this. This was actually something that our, our researcher Adam figured out, which I think is maybe the first time I've seen anyone mention this. There's a massive, massive uptick in interest in Ziz, according to Google trends during the pandemic. Huh. We don't have the exact reason why. Like we haven't figured out exactly way, but I can, I can definitely make an hypothesis here,

which is TikTok, weirdly, when it was still run by ByteDance and sort of running on ByteDance's original algorithm, kept having this sort of like eternal September problem where like very old internet content would sort of resurface on TikTok as sort of like Gen Z kids sort of shared it. NyQuil Chicken is like a very good example of this, but there's a lot of these, right? Where it's like an old internet thing and TikTok users sort of just discover it again and then they share it. So it's not totally surprising to me that something like very early internet like Ziz hits TikTok and sort of ignites this interest in in bodybuilding and bodybuilding culture. But it from there, like inspires a long form video on YouTube that does quite well.

A YouTube, it's this guy, the Sunny V2. guy that like that guy he's such a fucking asshole like the rise and fall guy basically yeah everything is like a rise and fall thing with him but he makes a video titled the beautiful tragedy of a legend zizz which he released in 2022 which is sort of right at the end of the ziz revival that we we discovered and that did four million views it leads to a bunch of reaction videos from asmongols xc there's like a bunch of subredits that pop up around ziz and And I don't think it's an accent that like right after you get through that, you see an explosion of looks maxing. And that leads us directly to clavicular sort of appearing out of nowhere around two.

Like, clivocular was active on the newer looks maxing boards in like 2023, 2004. And then he like gets big on TikTok the summer of 2025. So like it's all happening because of this uptick and interest around Ziz that happens during the pandemic. That's so fascinating. I do not realize it. Wow. So yeah, I don't know. Like there's something that happened right around June,

between like February and June 2021 that kicks up a massive amount of interest in Ziz. And then it, it basically ignites an entire wave of looks maxing to come back into fashion. Damn. That's crazy. Even in death, he still inspires. He's still, he's still, Miron from heaven. I guess like, you know, final. thoughts like going through this journey to the dark heart of the internet, Chad, like, you know,

I guess the thing that I'm always sort of curious about when I whenever I lift up this particular rock and look at all the bugs underneath is like, I do remember having male role models when I was a teenager that like led me down the path to where I am now, which is a podcaster, which I guess isn't much better, but like better than being clavicular. But I don't know how you like get that back. I don't know how you sort of like deprogram men from the path that they're on now. Mm-hmm. Most of my, my work, like talking about, like, you know, weird anti-wote guys and right-wing

culture and conspiracy and all that shit. And like, as I've, like, read like a lot of like man shit for, for this, this manserville video I'm working on, like, when you read a lot of the things these guys are talking about, they're like, they come from like, legit. places of issue and problem, like a lack of mentorship, for example, legitimate economic hardship, like gender dysphoria, like overall social alienation that like you don't know how to get around. Like a lot of these things like I grew up with and I and I, I am still working through. And I didn't become like woke and gay until my like mid-20s because like my upbringing, like, Like I grew up in an abusive household.

My dad was like very stoic who worked all the time. I didn't have a lot of like male models. I was raised on the internet. Like like a lot of me stumbling in into being who I am was like accidental. And then there are like, you know, things you see online with people discussing stuff that I think lack a certain amount of nuance. And it's a bit more reactionary than I would like, which can like serve against public best public interest for men

like the whole like thing that happened a year ago of people shitting on like performative men for a while I don't know if you guys for like reading in public that trend yeah it's like like we're just circling back to hating femininity and doing homophobia at that point like that isn't like

doing anything to like actually help men and I think like within reason I think like that there has to be less of a tendency to to just like push these guys completely aside. Like you have to have a certain level of like protection for the group that you're in, obviously.

But I think when it comes to discussing these things, I think like you have to try to talk to them or talk about male issues in a way that like maybe is a little bit uncomfortable. I agree. This is women's fault entirely. Yes. No. No, you're, you're 100% right. And I, I don't have.

really any patience for like adult men who act this way. I sort of think like up against the wall like we can't really work with you anymore. Yes. But there's this moment. And this is why this is actually my optimistic take here that this is actually maybe all a quirk of history and will kind of be a non-issue soon. Growing up like as a as a teenage boy, there's sort of this moment around like 12, 13, 14 where you start to look around the world and sort of start to like take in information and look for things and when i i was i was that age around like 2002 2003 so there was actually like a lot of men in mass media still who were cool we've now know that like a lot of them were predators but like a lot of them weren't and so you know there were figures

like green day with american idiot or john stewart and the daily show or whatever like cool guys that that I could like, be like, oh, like that's the kind of cool guy that I want to be. And they're channeling the kind of anger I have into something constructive. And so I'm interested in that. And that takes you down the path that sort of leads me to hear into journalism and into playing in punk bands and whatever, right? Technology starts to shift though, about four or five years later. And so there's the internet's now become more important. But the internet was never a space full of like professional guys. It was full of like,

weird freaks but like the newer people coming into an internet world like didn't know that and so there's all of these weird freaks that are like i'm going to say stuff that like a 12 year old or a 13 year old boy is going to be really into and i'm even going to change my body to look like an action figure and i'm going to use that power to share my weird fucked up worldview and by the time you get to like steve bannon's bright bar and the beginnings of the trump campaign and Gamergate, it's a lot of right-wingers who realize what has happened. And they spend a ton of money building Prager University and they hire Milo Unopolis to write about Gamergate and they they flood YouTube with Ben Shapiro videos

and all the rest of it because they realize that young people aren't watching MTV anymore. They're not watching Comedy Central. The young people of the future are on the internet. And they're going to superpower the weird freaks because they already know this is working. And the problem is like we are still in this world where like normal men who are cool and not insane are usually on TV. And all of the weird freaks are now billionaires and have like first movers advantage on the internet. Even like even right now like John Stewart and Joe Rogan, there's no comparison who's more popular. There's no comparison in what the 2010's created.

which was a total monopoly on the media of the future for the teenage boys that are now adults of that era. And the reason why I'm sort of optimistic about this is because once we can sort of let go of the, oh, like the internet sort of a secondary space. And it's like if you can let go of that, then you can start to get the actual good male role models using the internet and finding, okay, there's no good way to say it's finding the 13 year old boys on the internet. that they need to and convincing them not to be total fucking chuds all the time. That's my

sort of view on this. Yes. Use of the internet is like a double-edged sword in that way that people like that or you know, people like fucking Asman Gold or XQC or like a lot of the weird like right ring slash like chud adjacent streamers like there

there's a level of access there which young guys are going to get at very like volatile times of their lives and you know a lot of the communities are exceptionally insular so it can be harder to get out of that but on the flip side like you know so much of like the the woke mind virus that has been transmitted into my brain is from me like finding other men on the internet or on on youtube for example who like talk about being a man and masculinity and feminism and like all this shit in like

deeper complex ways to like pull pull me out of it like foreign man is in a foreign land has been like a huge influence on me ever since I found his channel like years and years ago and like there's people like that and like I'm trying to do that myself and like I've gotten comments from like people it's My favorite kind of comment to get that's like your video has like helped me like realize some of the like shitty like toxic things that I was in and engaging with. And like that's like that's just really fucking cool. Like that's just it is cool. I don't think it's actually very hard to like turn the tide on this stuff like Teenage

Bulls sort of kind of like the same stuff no matter what time period you're talking about. They want to break shit and they want to talk to girls or boys and their hormones are like all over the place. And if you like figure out an aspirational way to channel that weird like awful teenage energy into something, like it works pretty well. And that could be, I mean, for me it was like warp tour and improv comedy and comic books and all that shit. And I think that stuff still existed. And like the right wingers have a monopoly on it because they were quicker to the to the start with the, with the transition to the internet. And once you fit, once you, once you sort of give it, give in and sort of go like,

okay, we're going to meet them where they are. You know, you could start a fucking male feminist league on Roblox if you figure out the right way to do it. Yeah. You can make conservatives look goofy and lame and old the way they looked to me when I was 13 listening to the decline by no effects for the first time. And I was like, yeah, Republicans are fucking lame, dude. Uh-huh.

The story of Ziz is a really good, a really good way to, uh, to think about it, which like you could have just shown those kids in 2020 a different kind of guy and we would have had a different kind of world. Yes, yes. Like particularly since like so many of these guys are like closeted or like on the spectrum. Like like, like, Clavicular has openly admitted that like he is Dero, Divergent. I'm sure there's like a decent number of like ace men in there who like only have sex with women simply because they believe it is like a necessary.

thing and like like broader visibility of like queerness and different ways to embrace sexuality and gender for and around men like the more that becomes visible the earlier like dudes who fall into that spectrum like oh like I'm oh maybe I am bisexual I am a gender I could be trans like Bob like being able to get to those guys early is in my opinion the most important possible thing because I think a lot of the dudes who are in there now like you know we can do our best to like you know try to give them access points but like they aren't like they aren't at all who I focus my content around and I don't think like people should like I fucking hate when people try to directly speak to like chuds in like hoity no video essays like what are you doing you're just grandstanding

you're wasting your fucking time like like you we we should be going after dudes who are in the middle or early on like those like those are ripe for the pickings look it we have some parents to listen to the show if you are the parent of a teenage boy right now and you're a little freaked up what you heard today and you just sit them down in a safe quiet place and make them listen to a hundred gecks no i want to thank you for coming on the show this was a fantastic conversation um if people want to mire you if they if they want to be miring to you on the internet where can they do that? Where can they follow you on the internet? Thank you so much for having me. I run the YouTube channel, Crimes New Roman. I also have a blue sky account if you want to watch me

shitpost every now and then. Come watch my stuff and hit the subscribe button. And if you don't, you are being homophobic. That's right. We're some see heroes and other see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. If you want a $3,000 a month payday for life, what would you feel free to do?

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