Panic World - The people who think every celebrity is secretly trans

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

Today we’re talking about the moral panic around “transvestigation,” an online “game” where people try to identify who is or isn’t trans. Particularly popular in right-wing corners of the internet, transvestigating is a subculture of people — with no background in biology at all — who analyze photos, facial features, and body proportions to “prove” their claims, that basically every celebrity is secretly trans. Kitty Kimz and Jeff from Free Country USA join us once again to trace the surprising early origins of this conspiratorial thinking about trans identities and how it’s continued to permeate culture on the internet and beyond. Our guests Kitty Kimz & Jeff host Free Country USA, a podcast you can find on YouTube @freecountrypod, Instagram @freecountrypodusa, and everywhere else you listen or watch pods. Sponsors Get 50% off and free breakfast for a year from Factor by going to https://www.factormeals.com/panic50off and use panic50off at checkout! Want even more Panic World content? Like ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, and access to our exclusive Discord? Sign up for a membership at: https://www.patreon.com/PanicWorld. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Thanks for coming back on the show. I feel very uncomfortable to ask this question, but it's in the top of my outline. So I'm going to ask it. Kitty, I have been told I need to ask you about detransitioning because you want to be canceled. I didn't want to be canceled. I thought, okay, this is like a year or two ago. I did this bit where I was just like, so I've been publicly trans online for like six. seven, eight years or something.

And I came out, fuck you. I came out a couple years ago and I was like, hey, everyone, I'm detransitioning. This was my plan the whole time. I just like transitioned as an experiment just to see what it was like. But like, I always planned on detransitioning. The trans community got really mad at me,

but it was very split in half. It wasn't like a normal split in the trans community. I had like multiple couples tell me they like got into fights with their like partners and like breakups. happened because of this bit. I felt like the trans community couldn't decide what is and isn't a valid reason to transition. And my whole point, the whole time was like, you should be able to transition for any

reason you want, even if it says a fucking experiment and you don't feel like you're trans. I was going to just stop you at the trans community can't decide what is and isn't valid as sort of the defining thesis of at least my observations from the outside. Today we are talking about the trans community. We're going to be talking about the moral panic over transvesticating, the sort of game, particularly in right-wing spaces of like, can you identify who and who is in trans and has spiral out of control over the years. But first, an introduction. My name is Ryan Broderick.

With me, as always, is Grant Irving, and this is Panic World, a show about how the internet warps our minds, our culture and eventually reality. And joining me today, everyone's favorite, very normal siblings from the free country podcast, Kitty Kim and Jeff. Welcome back, guys. Thank you for having us back. So as I said, we're talking about transvestigating. It's a fixation that I assume well-adjusted people on the internet, like maybe don't even know about. But it is something that, like, impacts culture. And we're going to today try to figure out, you know, like how seriously we should be taking these transvestigators.

But first, Jeff, last time you were on the show, it was for a no-fap episode. And you told us this preparation you took up no-fap episode. app again. So have you been transvestigating people? Well, you know, this is this one's even better because I didn't have to, uh, like I was been doing it before. I've been like anytime I see a person, especially if there's someone with celebrity or status, you know, I'm doing, I'm looking for the Adams apple. I'm comparing hand lengths to the size of the rest of their body, you know, just stuff that like people do to make sure like you know if you're around someone who's trans because that's

just something you want to know that you can do. That was really quick. It was a really quick answer. Sorry, I asked. Yeah, I want to sort of at the top here say that I filed transvestigating under a folder that I've for years been calling, human beings weren't meant to see this many images. And I do think, and so a lot of people picking apart, yeah, as you said, Adams Apples, hand lengths. I you know the same kind of like race scientists that are like trying to measure people's skulls via selfies and stuff all of this I think is just a quirk of evolution really but can either of you define transvestigating I try it a little bit at the top of like you know what what do you usually see in these threads and in these communities that are doing this sort of thing it's got to be one of the weirdest conspiracy theories there's so many strange ones out there but the idea that like every celebrity is trans like I see a lot of

of like a lot of images of yeah just like close-ups of Adams apples like diagrams and lines like like you're watching a football game with like the circles around certain things it's like people who have never studied biology or anatomy suddenly thinking they're experts at biology and anatomy and trying to place people in two boxes when it's always been a spectrum and it's like sometimes i see what you mean about the images because a lot of times you see someone from like a different angle and maybe they look like more masculine or more feminine. So if you see a thousand pictures of someone, probably one of them is going to make it kind of look like that they're trans.

Yeah. I also just think like if you are somebody who spends all day on the internet, you probably have like a really specific kind of body dysmorphia that like you then take out on other people, right? Like also this probably doesn't help, but like I was watching the reality show Traders I was catching up this week and modern celebrities, especially like people on TV all time. They look really crazy because of, you know, HD cameras and 4K like the, the, you know, the,

Celebrities don't look like normal human beings anymore. So I can kind of imagine that that would make you a little paranoid if you were already predisposed to being paranoid. But have either of you ever like encountered a transvestigator, either online or off, like someone who's like really into this sort of thing? Well, people are doing it to like every video that is posted with CAD in. People are like, tell what's that? Yeah. People are like looking at CAD of being like you will never be a man. Yeah.

For me, they're so confused about which way it's going. The thing that clocks me gets me clock the most is my voice. Like people like will see me initially like if I'm on like Omega for example. And the second I start talking, they're like, what the fuck is that voice? I'm just like. How often are you on Omega? Too much. In 2026, you're on Omega like enough of this.

It's only TV. Yeah, they, that's only TV. The creator of Omega shut it down. They shut down because he like couldn't in good faith like allow it to operate anymore. What's Omega? Omega is sort of like a, it's sort of like chat roulette. It's like, it's like an evolution of chat roulette, basically. Back in the day in like 2012, I like met a girl on Omega and dated her in real life for years.

Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I'm sure she was strange. I think she's married to somebody else now. Oh, I wonder if they met on Emigel. I wonder if the video roulette just sort of like picked a new person. Yeah, I don't know.

God blessure. So I think there have been, let's call this like gender-based paranoia for a long time. In fact, like if you pull up like any random comedy, even Simpsons episodes from the, you know, the 90s, 2000s, you're going to see all kinds of trans jokes. It's a part of culture. But we wanted to kind of kind of like this specific kind of like internet-based conspiratorial thinking about trans identities started. And according to our researcher Adam who started digging into this, the. Kind of the best known modern case of this, the earliest, would be in July 2014 when on her book tour, Joan Rivers offhandedly made jokes that Obama was the first gay president, saying, we all know Michelle is T-sler dot-da-dot, a transgender. Joan Rivers was the first person to say that?

And she's saying it like, we all know. Well, I was going to say everyone was saying about Lady Gaga, but I guess I don't know any, like, problem. I think it was that. Yeah. So, yeah. And in fact, we've done previous episodes about, you know, the, the, the, the, like, hysteria around the Ciarra, the singer being a hermaphrodite, Lady Gaga, secretly, having a penis.

There were all kinds of these rumors floating around. But this was the first time that, like, someone important enough, like, made that comment that it actually caused a scandal. So the LA Times rights at the time. And with the cultural understanding and knowledge of transgender issues expanding, it seems odd that the comedian, despite her advanced age, okay, would make such an out of touch and disrespectful comment, especially when it's been so important for her to remain relevant and in the game.

So, and then CNN, like, has Joan Rivers on, and she says, I think it's a compliment. Okay. She's so attractive, tall with a beautiful body, great face, does makeup. The most generous women I know are transgender. She's trans because she's hot. That's a perfect, that's such a perfect pivot. That's genius. Yeah, no, it's actually a compliment.

I would like to say... I think she's secretly trans and I want to fuck that. Can I just say, I think it makes sense that the first example is about a black woman because transvestigating is rooted in a lot of racism. I think that's exactly right. Nice. That was, dude, that was really woke. That was awesome.

Shut up. In a good way. Thanks. She then doubled down on her joke, basically as she was dying. Close to death. She still doubles down on it. Was Joan Rivers alive when FDR was alive? Is she that old?

That's a great question. Let me see. Was she old enough to be like, I think that he's trans? Well, I mean, she was born in 1933. So like there is some overlap. There's definitely like some overlap there. But the reason... There's the first thing she remembers when she was born

that the president was trans. Yeah, exactly. She was born into this life. So the reason we're starting with Joan Rivers, though, is because not only does it cause a scandal and kind of like, you know, weird way elevate this kind of discourse into, you know, popular culture and into the news cycle, it's taken very, very seriously by Alex Jones. And Alex Jones runs with it. Of course. And so this is, this is what Alex Jones has to say at the time. He says, well, Joan Rivers talked about it the other day and now it's an international news story.

The question is, who is Michelle Obama? Is she really a woman? Is she a man? Now, I'm not drawing any conclusions here, but I know this. It's fair to question anything and everything this administration says. There's also been a small percentage, a small statistic of men who identify as females and females who identify as males. And I don't judge that. Okay.

Woke. I'm just sick of the societal obsession with it. It's clearly being pushed. And what I'm tired of is the force feeding of all this culturally. to reduce population and break up the family. So that's how we get, that's how we get the sort of like actual right wing obsession with this stuff. And, you know, Alex Jones at this point,

he's talking about like alien human hybrids. And he's like, he's kind of jump starting what will eventually be Q&N. And that combines together in, of course, Texas. So this is according to Metro Weekly. You need to Google a picture of George W. Bush, kissing the bald head of Jeff Gannon, who's a baldheaded gay prostitute. It makes you wonder if Jeff Gannon was having sex with Carl Rove.

Jeff Gannon was a gay prostitute who was known for being a top. Do you know what a top is and a bottom? Jeff Gannon was a top, and he was running around the Bush White House like he was a stray cat. And then on Twitter, um, yeah. This sounds like it's from our show. Yeah, these are just like comments that you get on your show. So, you know, thinking back to basically 10 years ago, you know, how would you, this is such a loaded question, how would you describe trans discourse in 2014 to 2050? Well, I do.

I think that what Alex Jones said, it really makes me like sort of nostalgic back when it was like when conservatives have more this like libertarian like flavor to what they were saying. They're like, it's fine if they're trans. I just want to know. If men want to be women, that's their business because we're not in the business of interfering. It's like now it's like if you're out you know now it's like you guys need to get the wall. Yeah. It's like I need to see your genitals to be able to feel comfortable around you. Right.

Which is, you know, where we're at now. There's definitely like more of a totalitarian flavor to a lot of this now. Jeff, I assume that you've spent a lot of time on 4chan. What would you say is like the sort of general consensus around trans people on 4chan? That they, that everyone wanted to fuck them or be fucked by them. Yes. I, for the record, I knew. that. I just didn't want to say it. I wanted to make you say that because I didn't want to have to say that.

Yeah. I mean, this is the, I feel like 2014 is kind of like the beginning of like the 4chan like Femboy meme. I think that like to damn. I missed out. No, that's not on the internet. That's older than 24. It's like femboys posting about those stripy socks. Mm-hmm. I have been around since like oh four. I swear to God. The Fem boys on Fchand talking about like I don't know. that place on the internet was a place for rejects, right? And what were the two biggest rejects in society at that time were transgender and gender experimenting people and Nazis. Those were like the two things that were you couldn't be

that you would only see on TV, but no real person was actually one of those things. And so they all congregated on 4chan and created this like forbidden soup of like weird, racist gender experimenting people. And that's why it was so funny. and why I went on it every single day when I was growing up. Yeah, I think that's right. I think it was just sort of a place where you could engage in taboos.

And so obviously it's attracting different kinds of people who are into different kinds of taboos. And I think 2014, though, is kind of the right moment to think about how this is changing. Because, like, right now in our story, we're in the summer of 2014, which is a couple months before Gamergate. And like, that's kind of when I say, like, 4chan stops being fun. and starts like really radicalizing. So like a hundred percent. All of this stuff is, of course, in the culture of Fortune, the sort of like the conspiracies, the, the like anti-woke, anti-PC behavior, the sort of, as you said, social rejects. All of this is like soup.

I agree. I agree with 2014 is like when it stopped being funny because it became real life. I would agree. And in July 2014, a week after Joan Rivers makes her comments about Michelle Obama, Laverne Cox becomes the. first trans person to be nominated for an Emmy. And then a year later, Olympian and Kardashian Caitlin Jenner announces she's transitioning with the name change a few months later. And she says that she gets advice on it from Laverne Cox.

So like that is all to say that this year, this like sort of like last years of the pre-Trump era, the trans movement is like becoming, I would say like a pop cultural. moment in American history. It's kind of funny to look back on like rainbow capitalism now, but like it is, I think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when we talk about like how big of a deal this was. Like, yeah. You want to talk about Laura Jane Grace?

Oh, sure. Perfect example. Um, well, I can't say much honestly. I just other than like I fucked with against me for like a while before. That was my first like, oh my God, trans is real moment was because I was a big against me fan. And when she transitioned, because she had a song where she literally said, I wish my name was Laura. I would have been named after my mother. I would have grown up to be strong and beautiful like her.

And then she became a woman named Laura. I was like, oh, what a beautiful metaphor. Yeah, that's what I thought too. And I was like, oh, like this is like a real thing that people are feeling. Like that was and then shortly afterwards was was Caitlin Jenner. I don't think it was long afterwards like maybe like a year or two after that. Yeah. That was my experience.

I think the against me something you're talking about, I think is ocean waves, right? I think that's... I believe, I believe, yeah. I think it's ocean. Yeah, something like that. And like, yeah, it was huge. I remember, I remember that as well. As Connor said, before that, my only exposure to transness was Mrs. Garrison from South Park.

Was that before or after? Before. I love having you guys on the show because I have to Google questions like, when did Mr. Garrison transition? 2005. That's what I'm saying. That's wild. Yeah, that's incredible. That was my first.

Like that was my first time I ever conceived of the idea that someone could go male the female was Mr. Garrison. Wow, that's like way earlier than I thought. That's it. That's kind of unbelievable to look back on it. But yeah, so as this cultural shift is happening, like more and more people, especially in the world of celebrity, which I think is like the, and a really important dimension here. The headlines were being generated by famous people transitioning, which kind of dovetails perfectly with the contingent of like right wing keyboard warriors who are like becoming obsessed with it. And we'll continue to be obsessed with it. So in 2016, we have Lily Wokowski, one of the directors of The Matrix.

She comes out as transgender. She does so under duress because the Daily Mail threatens to out her. What? What? What? I did not know that. Her. Damn.

Yeah. Her sister had transitioned in 2008 and like nobody really cared. Yeah. Well, it is, the Matrix is about being trans. Clear. Definitely. No question for me. Yeah.

And red pill is estrogen. Sorry. Go ahead. We're going to be talking all about taking the red pill and seeing trans people everywhere across all forms of media right after a word from our sponsors, whoever's brave enough to put an ad in this episode. It has been a busy and chaotic winner. Let me tell you, not having to think about meals for a little bit was fantastic. Thanks to Factor, I had great chef-prepared meals ready to go whenever I was ready to eat them. No cleanup, no cooking, no prep. It was great. Ready in two minutes, no planning, no cooking.

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I just assumed you had watched a lot of these, so that's where the next question was leading. The thing that I was pointing to was, like, pre-Tik-Tac and pre-X-red where it's just broken down in little segments, extremely boring. like Dolus guys voice for over an hour comparing index fingers to other things. Is that what you're watching, Grant? Like you're spending time watching these? That's what I'm doing for my job. Oh, for your job. Oh, for your job.

That is what I get paid to do. For the record, Grant suggested the topic of this episode. So like, I think this all kind of ties to, like, I get it. You want to like put it on your taxes that like you're the transvestigation patrons you're paying for for work. No, I totally understand. Yeah, I don't. It does sound like something that I would watch, but it is so boring. It is so boring.

And it's like, I don't really like bodies very much. I'll say more about that. We should do a whole other episode about whatever that means. I think that would be interesting. By the mid-2010s, it's circulating on right-wing spaces. Like Alex Jones is kind of taking it running with it. Republicans are picking it up. It's like entered the popular discourse because celebrities are coming out.

And we're also seeing the earliest instances of creators who are hopping on it as a trend, trying to like get audiences with it and like building communities around it. And these have been going like since around 2010. A lot of the videos get taken down. One user that we came across who's like fairly notable in this community is called Jungle Surfer. And these are just some of the titles of their videos over the years. So in 2013, they made a video called Proof Sandy Hook was a FEMA drill. That one doesn't appear to be about trans people.

That's just they just did that one for fun. FEMA drill. Yeah. In 2014, they did Michelle or Michael Obama. She is a he. In 2014, they did Chadee transvestigation, which like, that's unreal. The most beautiful woman. Yeah, like.

What the fuck? It was just like the first black person you could think of. I think Kitty's point about this being very much tied to, like, misogyny and racism and, like, specifically, like, paranoia of, like, important and powerful black women is, like, dead on. Like, that's where this comes from, basically. Yeah. A lot of times when I hear a conspiracy here, I can kind of understand the anxiety and paranoia behind it. I just, like, can't connect with this one. Does that make sense?

Like, I don't know. Why are they doing this? What are they? I don't. I personally. I'm just going to go out on a limb. I think they're all trans deep down, and that's why they care so much and it's projection.

That's what it is. That's usually, I mean, in my personal experience, that's usually where homophobia comes from. They're trans. Yeah, that's where transphobia comes from. Every guy that was homophobic, I knew, like, heavily homophobic in high school, ended up trying to hit on me before I transition.

Or after, or before I transitioned. When I was a guy. When you were got. Yeah, and I think it's probably the same thing for people who are like heavily trans investigating. They're trying to create a world where everyone is trans. So that they can be. In a world where everyone's trans, no one is. I have not a conflicting theory, but like maybe like a supplemental one, which is like the 2010s was this really strange moment where the whole country kind of felt like, okay, like Obama's president, progress is here.

and particularly in the media, you get this, like, massive wave of, like, progressive media in commercials, in music, in movies and TV. I do wonder if, like, a lot of these kinds of conspiracy theories start because by going that route, by sort of, by sort of like using the media to sort of say, like, okay, like all of these celebrities are transitioning and everyone's gay and everything's woke now. It made it feel conspiratorial because it was inherently. media project a lot of people who were not media literate or like didn't really understand what was going on felt like like the president was like beaming gay thoughts into their brain from the tv right or it's like why there's so many interracial couples and commercials exactly like i'm feeling especially gay lately it has to be the president's i think so it has to be some type of jewish laser yeah i i'm with you on the jewish laser but ryan i think that you hit on something

too that that is connecting dots for me the rainbow capitalism of of it all. Right. This like veneer at the time that like nothing was sincere like everyone's kind of being lied to. Obama was going to be this change president and then just like was pretty much Bush. There was this overgrossing sense that like nothing is what it seems and like that has stayed with us. And this was the first thing like from like literally the bodies that people are telling us of of what they are. Nothing is what it seems. These are all traps. And I think the feeling that they're all traps makes people conspiratorial and like I think that's

why it's had staying power is because like once you get things like Epstein it's like see nothing is what it seemed and everything was trans like one of the only major good things that I mean he was like he's really masculine looking he's a he's a gig is you're saying

Epstein Jeffrey Epzzi is a gig of Chad is that we're well if we're just like if we're talking about purely like a looks maxing like facial scale thing like not taking all personality and deeds behind. Yeah, ignore all that. Yeah. He's probably like for his age.

But it's like I see what like under like the Obama year is probably one of the main good things that happened was like cultural social progress around like gay stuff. Yeah, everyone was like damn. Everything still. So people feel that. Everything still sucks that the president is doing. So being gay and trans must also suck. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe or just like I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who like has no idea what's going on in the world. They just like they're on the internet And they're sort of looking at culture from the outside And they're thinking like oh wow like everyone's trans now and everything's gay And there are no white people and who are famous anymore

And like I'm like a terrified psycho and I'm gonna post about it online Like that personality type makes sense to me as like Not makes sense to be like I'm not that person but like I can imagine that person existing Yeah your life sucks and everything's gay and you're mad right and you're also Everything sucks everything's gay you're gay right and you're mad And it's gonna that's gonna come out in so many fun and exciting ways. Yes.

And I think like, you know, so in the next part of our story here is, there's like no way to do this stuff making a pun. The transition from transvesticating celebrities to like it just becoming a right wing tool in their sort of playbook. So in December 2016, this guy, jungle surfer is still blogging all over the map. It then kind of like co-like, he's doing a bunch of different conspiracies. But then it kind of shifts to one hub for this stuff, which is Transvestigator.com. It's a blog run by like several people who are realizing that by doing this, they're getting a lot of views. So this is like 2016. I assume like Facebook is sending a ton of traffic to this site.

Like it's that kind of era. If it's an evil website, Facebook was definitely sending traffic. 100%. And most of them are using pseudonym, so we don't really know who they are. But there was one that we do seem to know who it was. It's a Christian conspiracy YouTuber who goes by Apostle Laura Lee. And this is the moment where transvestigation starts to slide into Christian evangelicalism. And this is where you start to get the idea that trans people worship the gender fluid God Bafomet.

And the ritual of Bafomet, the transgender, to show allegiance to him, you had to kiss his ass ring. Really? And it said both of those things. So I knew that both of those things would become popular in the future. And that somehow calling people the goat would be normalized over the sheep being always the most popular reference.

God damn, we got some good weed cat. Ah, yes. Yeah, we got the... I have a furry bath in that online. Yeah, we do have a shot. Yeah. Yeah, President Obama mailed it to you directly in the 2010. So they start to like go after different kinds of celebrities too.

So they're looking at UFC fighters. A lot of these videos are deleted, but we do have some of the comments here. So these are comments underneath. What is it? Is this Ronda Rousey? Is that who they're talking about? It's Ronda Rousey. Yeah, yeah.

I think Hollyholm. So let me read this one. And so it says, now where's the hips all capitalized? Being physically fit doesn't make your hips disappear. If anything, it should make a waist smaller than accentuating those female hips. Consequently, when a woman's waist is smaller, this will give more swing to the hips while walking and cannot be duplicated by a male to female. It's a girl thing. It has been my experience when I was weight training that this was so.

I was an avid body female builder working about two plus hours a day and I never looked like this skill issue. I never had an inch to pinch either horizontally or vertically. Why doesn't this title fighter

have a snatched ass waist? I agree. Or doesn't want the best woman title fighter ever like look like a Barbie doll or like a video game character like me. Yeah, like me. This is the line that gets me.

Moving on to the extra large male neck, I never had that either. It's like, I don't know. But you know, if the only people who are fucking training, they're necks to be big so that you don't get choked out are fighters. It's a stupid thing for anyone else to do. Yeah, and you can kind of see how this intersects with turf stuff too. We've done episodes on sort of like the rise of turfdom across the web at around the same time. But it's clearly like a bunch of conservative people.

having like a freak out about like what genders are supposed to be doing what I think and it's all kind of happening simultaneously. When I see like comparisons being drawn like that, it almost feels like it's coming from a place of like needing to have affirmation for yourself. Sure. Like a shirt in your own womanhood. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of cis women get like insecure when someone transitions.

Yeah, especially if that person's hotter than them. Yeah, that would probably be a bummer if you're a woman. Honestly, probably. Yeah, probably. But, yeah, I mean, you still gotta be nice about it. Yeah. I have a trans man friend who transitioned and he can grow a really full great beard. And you can't.

And you're a little bit jealous. I am. You should start a blog about how much you hate trans. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, you should. I agree. Honestly, I wouldn't like. He can grow a really good beard and he's got like a really good fashion sense.

I can't pull that off, you know, and so I am jealous a little bit. So I guess I can put myself in those shoes. Honestly, your beard is fine and you have great fashion. Thank you. Thank you very much. That means a lot, actually. And Kitty has no incentive to kiss up to you. Like, that's totally sincere.

But, no, but Kitty, I think you're right that there is this sort of like deep-seated gender essentialist fear that's coming to the surface. It's a lot of people who are completely spun out and trying to figure out, like, what women should look like, and they're doing it completely alone in their houses, staring at images, which, like, you know, it's going to make you crazy, I think.

Well, no fabric kind of came to the conclusion that people need to just go outside, and I feel like we're getting, I feel like that's probably the moral of the story of a lot of the lessons you're presenting to your audience. So we have a tagline at the end of every episode just said go outside, basically.

Oh, okay. Well, there you go. All right, episodes done, guys. Thanks for coming. Yeah, so 2017 to 2019, is when this world starts to shift again. So just to sort of like keep, keep this all moving, you know,

and keep track of where we are. So it starts with the world of celebrity. It's fairly apolitical. Alex Jones picks it up. It starts to get attraction in right-wing spaces. From there, it makes the jump to like a dedicated community and starts to like mix with like weird Christian evangelical kind of nonsense.

2017 to 2019 is when it becomes so big that it starts to branch out into different flavors of transvestigators. So this is when you start getting anti-feminist YouTubers who are doing it. It's when you get the kind of the creation of what we would now call Kiwi Farms. And so now Kiwi Farms is basically running like 24-7 multiple threads transvestigating, not just celebrities, but also just random people that they find on the Internet and become obsessed with. And so now, you know, basically in the span of three years we've gone from kind of like a fringe, right wing idea to just like a part of internet culture that you can just do to people and you can just sort of terrorize people with and unlike the people like jungle surfer who were transvestigating

a celebrity as part of a larger conspiracy theory now there's just YouTube channels that's the only thing they're doing and they're just doing it to all kinds of different people and we're going to look at right now a YouTube channel called rebooting Christianity as the digital marketing you know back with digital marketing background I can respect that from the I can't respect it, but it is... It's a good idea of to be evil with. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Super smart. Good, good content play. Anyone listening? Listen for more social media tips. Make a SEO-based transvestigation YouTube channel and go back in time and do it in 2017. Exactly. Oh, we should, dude.

And this is also when things are becoming so chaotic and so distributed that we start to see like a need for a need for a larger point to all this. And that's when we get... God, all this shit is so fucking stupid, man. This is when we get the 2020 Transpocalypse. Yeah, so Grant can pull up this video here and we'll watch the first 60 seconds.

So this starts kicking around in 2018. Is everything in place? The Matrix is everywhere. We can see that. Also, yeah, it opens with a Matrix crawl, which is like... And Matrix scenes. It is six minutes of this.

It is six minutes of quoting the Matrix and other sci-fi movies. And then just showing different celebrities. Right. And showing that this is a whole scheme. And this is from a blog post about the Transpocalypse. This video is not intended. Do you want this still on, Ryan? Or do you want me to take this?

You could just have it play silently while I read about it. That's fine. That's a really dark, fucked up thing. to do. I'm joking at Alan Dershwood's being Yeah. Yeah.

So this is, yeah, this is, for people who are listening to this and not watching, this is like footage of the guy from

They Live, putting on the they live glasses and then like being, like discovering the different celebrities are secretly trans. And the,

the blog post that went along with this video reads, this video is not intended to be mean to anyone or a suggestion to hurt or kill anyone, nor is it to prove

anything conclusively about. anyone in particular. If people want to try and change their natural born sex, that's their decision. But if people are being intentionally deceived, it is our job as truthers to shed light on that deception. This video is simply shedding light on a huge deception, which has been targeted at us all since we were children. I mean, I think the video is pretty good. It's good editing. It's well done. It's like it's it's nice to see someone understand the thesis of the matrix that it is about transitioning.

Yeah. Yeah. And it would be really funny if you had they live glasses that told you if somebody was trans. They're called meta-ray bands and they will soon do that, yes. Hell yeah.

And we're going to talk about that and more after a word from our sponsors, meta-ray bands. They'll help you clock people in public against their will. Or if they're not trans, it can make them trans. That's true.

No, actually, no, that's what the glasses do. They don't expose trans people. They make people trans people. trans when you look at them. That's right. Yeah, that's just setting. Can you Grock do that right now?

Can you just say Grock undress this male? Hey, look. Okay, here's a free idea to have some fun online. Use Grock to make different right-winger's trans on X. I think. Don't do that. I would not do that. Can I use GROC to transition, Ryan?

I made a, I made a woman version of myself with Grog the other day. It gave me huge. jugs. Hey, that's... And it makes me Mexican, too, for some reason. That's cool, man. That's great. I hate it. I love having you on the show. You pay for grok?

Yeah. Yeah, I do. You pay for grok? Yeah, I do. That just comes with Twitter Blue, right? No. Oh, no. I'm specifically... Jesus Christ, man. Well, I pay for all the major LLM. Sure. No, you got to support them. That's true.

Well, it's not that I use it a lot for work. I'm a computer programmer, so AI really comes in handy. By people who really hate LLMs, I've been told that what I do is like the appropriate excuse for it. It just makes coding so much faster you. I was vibe coding with Claude this morning. Yeah, it makes it very easy. Yeah, that's, you know, you can't, it's like if I wasn't used,

I'm not going to sit here and justify my use of it. I also use it to generate pictures of myself with huge jug. Cool. I use it to like help me make hot, furry avatars and VR chat in Unity. So you guys are both doing really normal. stuff with LLMs and that's great. Kitty, now that we've sort of like spun, yeah, now that we've sort of spun through,

like a fairly compressed history of, I think what looking back was like a massive sea change politically, culturally around this stuff. You know, like, what are your sort of memories of, I guess like both like what was happening inside the trans community online at the time, but then also like how it, like, how it felt like you guys were being perceived from these sort of like fringe and then less fringe far right spaces. I tried to come out as trans when I was like 20 in like 2013, 2014.

No one knew what the fuck that was in real life. I didn't really. No one knew what being trans or furry was like at all. And it's been very weird to have to see that start popping up on the internet around like it was more like 2015, 2016 for me when I started seeing trans people talked about on the internet. And now it's what everyone talks about and has an opinion about like all the time. It was mainly either people heavily involved in the gay community or very chronically online that like actually knew what being trans was. It's interesting that like by the like kind of going back to what Jeff was saying about like these weird

shared online spaces in the early 2010s. Like it is strange to see the far right in a bad way learning about trans. people faster than popular culture was yes yeah it's like because when I like like I said like growing up on 4chan or whatever I just saw it like and honestly even it up until I was like 14 15 I saw it was like the butt of a joke more than anything it was definitely that all the early 2000s trans people are always the butt of the joke and still actually that that's a good point like we still really aren't in media like we're not in pop culture still we're just like the talking point of like politics but like as far as like pop culture

there's still like almost no trans representation. So I never thought of it like that. Like the right has kind of, yeah, moved along faster with trans stuff than pop culture has. Because like the trans community was so online in the 2000s and early 2010s. And the far right was equally online and oftentimes using the same websites and this in the same communities. By the nature of both communities, the trans community and the far right, like not being mainstream and needing a place to communicate, they were aware of each other much earlier than mainstream media, than mainstream discourse. And because of that, there's like this weird interplay between the two that I wonder what it feels like for like a normal person finding out about all this. Even now, does the average person be like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Like why are you talking about like if Rod Stewart really has an Adams apple or not? I'd say probably the average normie. Like the average like cis het normie still has pretty much no opinion on trans people. They had no kind of like what it is now and that people like change genders. But that's like the extent. I used to not so much these days, but I used to hang out in a lot of like dive bars. I were just like full of most the old conservative guys. And I would say if one of them started talking about how they think that like Rod Stewart

or fucking like, I don't know, was secretly trans. I think everyone at that bar would be like, what are you talking about? Like, what you sound in shame? That's, that's kind of how I feel. I feel like this is, this is really niche stuff reserved for a very bizarre population of the internet. And the, but the people who are into it are really into it because there's some weird, like psychic undercurrent to it that I probably comes from insecurity.

I can't tap into it. Like, I just can't tap into it. You know, yeah, insecurity. It's funny. I've had conversations over the years that, you know, are like in those kind of like dive bars full of old guys, right? Yeah. And now like they will start like ranting about trans people in the media. And for several of these instances, I've like pointed out that to the old guy doing his rant or the old woman doing her rant, they have trans friends or trans friends like they have children who are trans or whatever.

And they'll be like, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the media. Well, that's the classic conservative mindset, right? It's everything is horrible, but you reserve special exceptions for the people who are close to you in your life. Because they're one of the good ones. Yeah. Right, right. People tend to freak out and like come to pretty rash decisions or conclusions when their reality gets skewed.

And people find a lot of comfort in their gender, I think. And like once that starts to become warped, uh, I think they just kind of lose it a little bit. Right. If I, like, found some piece of media or something. Like, if I had like an egg cracking moment, as you say, like at 30, I would probably start saying and acting really strange. Like if there's something that made me question like how, because I am like, like you said, I find a lot of comfort in my gender. I really do. I experience gender euphoria as a man all the time. And if there was, I can't, it's like really actually hard for me. How, how? What was the last time you experienced gender euphoria as a man? What happened? Honestly, it's like it's small. things, small things. It's like when I, when I strike a business deal, when I make a deal with somebody. Yeah,

that's sick. Yeah. Right. Like when I, a striking a fair deal is like one that I like, is one of my favorite things. I thought you're going to be like when I like groom my mustache or so, you're like,

no, when I like get a. Oh, no, I don't. The firm handshake just really does it for me. A firm handshake. A firm handshake indeed.

And I don't, one of the more feminine things. I do. I don't grew my own mustache. I get it done professionally. I think that that's actually more masking. You ever got a straight razor shave? Oh, those things are unbelievable. I can't do a straight razor shave anymore because when I do it, I get kind of puffy and I look like J.D. Vance. The show can't handle that. We can survive that. To kind of like start, you know, wrapping up our timeline here of how transvestigation just

became part of political warfare around the world. In 2021, we get the first case of a celebrity responding to allegations that they're trans. And not like in the way that like Lady Gaga, you know, Lady Gaga has that famous interview. I think it's with Anderson Cooper in the 2000s where she's like, so what if I am. Yeah, super fucking sick. She's so awesome.

She's so cool. Yeah, she rips. In this case, Brigitte Macron went in a different direction. The First Lady of France sued bloggers who said that she was born. a man. They're convicted of slander in September 24. And then last year in July, an appeals court overturned that ruling, but then Brigitte Macron announced that she's going to be suing Candace Owens for for transvestigating her. This is also when we start to see kind of like this spread out into like the hysteria around like women's sports. So in 2023, Katie Ledecki wins the swimming

championships. She's transvesticated, hard enough that like Snopes, like the debunking website has to deal with it and address it. It starts getting written up as like a big meme, essentially by places like Vice that do an article on it. When to see this movie on Friday, I wanted to cringe when my husband said she's pretty. He can't see that they're both trans. How do you and your husband broach this topic? He thinks I'm nuts. Well, that sucks. I'm on husband number three, and I finally got one with an open mind. Joy is on her third husband because she cannot stop transvestigating. Testosterone can do some amazing things. Still a girl. I was having a really hard time seeing anything even kind of manly about Marilyn

Monroe. And suddenly it was like, bam. Yeah. So this is an example of this, uh, of transvestigation around Taylor Swift. So this post reads, Taylor Swift updates, L.O.L. Are you a bloke? Because, uh, yeah, we should also say like, there's a lot of British people who do this. Like a lot of weird fucking British people are obsessed with this. I knew there's a reason I couldn't tap into it. This post, which is completely incoherent, writes, A biological fact to tell the difference between a man and a woman is a woman's ring finger is shorter than the index finger. But for a guy, his ring finger is longer than the index finger.

Which one's your ring finger? The one your wedding ring goes on. Which is... Seriously? I'm not married. This one. That one's supposed to be longer than my index finger, which is this one? Yeah, I mean...

Your pinky's your ring finger. Index finger is your pointing finger. Oh, I'm going to feel really weird now. I just realized that one of my ring fingers is significantly longer than the other ring finger. So we're both trans? I don't know what this means, actually, because I think my fingers are different lengths. Wait, actually, same. You're by gender, Ryan.

Congratulations. I don't know what you determine it. Do you have to go to a hospital? Yeah, my right, my right ring figure is gigantic. Am I going to die? What does this mean? I would like to say I'm somewhat guilty of transvestigating. But in a and kind of a reverse way, because I'm fully convinced that J.K.

Rolling is a trans man in the closet. That's in the outline. We just have a guy there. Career We're going to have to get some legal counsel On this episode Okay, yeah So yeah, let's spin forward

So you can talk more about that So Watching the last episode that we did I was laughing my ass off At there being three different disclaimers Throughout Look, you gotta like Take it really slowly with people

You know Like with this episode No disclaimers We'll just go right into it And like they can get mad about it I think this one's going like more little... No, I'm going to put a disclaimer that Ryan makes a discovery about his fingers that's now going to distract him for the rest of the recording.

I'm like really like freaking out right now. This is insane. I have to piss real quick. Go for it. Wait, so, okay, I'm going to make sure my package didn't get stolen up here. I'll be right back to. Yeah. Are you saying yours are different on both hands?

According to Google AI, it's not universal. Many people have a slightly longer ring finger on their dominant hands. often the right. Are you right or left-handed? I'm right-handed. Some have longer left fingers, and the difference can vary influenced by genetics, prenatal hormones, and even hand use. Does it say anything about transgenderism?

It doesn't say anything about transgenderism. But it is related to hormones like testosterone in the womb. Oh, interesting, Ryan. Very interesting. Are your fingers indicating that you're low or high tea? I mean, I like to think that I'm a high-team male. I, that's how I identify. Is this real or is this like the skull size shit?

I mean, I don't think Google AI summary would lie to me. So, Jeff, can you check in Grock? Can we see what? Yeah. Can you ask Grock's sexy anime girl if I'm a high T-mail? All right. So, yeah, just to spin through the last couple ones of these. I think he's actually doing it.

I'm listening. I'm listening. Yeah, yeah. No, while you ask Grock's anime girl, about my testosterone levels. We are by all accounts right now in the middle of transvestigation hysteria. In fact, to the point where like I personally kind of like don't pay attention to it anymore, which maybe means that we're kind of like coming off the end of it here hopefully.

Because you personally stop being interested? Well, no, just because like I'm sitting at the internet all day and I'm actually seeing less and less of it. So I'm like, I'm thinking like maybe this is the end. No, yeah, I was super interested. interested in it and then I got I got bored yeah um this is that you're at Grock says no Ryan Broderick the journalist Garbage Day newsletter writer and Panic World Hodes podcast host is not regarded as a high T-mail that's you know what fair enough from his

ex post he engages in looks maxing just your maxing bogging memes into detached him use observer style rather than embodying I I love jester maxing that's true I love I love okay Wow, Grock, Grock got me. That, Rick. All right. I think Spence Grock and make this part of the show. I'm so sorry, everyone. Every episode end by asking Grock where I rank with all the cool men on the internet.

Okay, so yeah, we're in peak. We're in peak Transvestigation Hysteria, basically in the last couple years. 2024, we get the story of Amman Khalif winning a boxing match at the Paris Olympics when her opponent forfeits. A conspiracy theory starts spreading thanks to people like. J.K. Rallying and Elon Musk and J.D. Vance that all claimed that she was trans and that her opponent dropped out and refused to fight because of it. The International Boxing Association, a Russian organization, which helps spread the rumors, says that they're suing Khalif and the IOC the next year. So, like, they were so mad about being told that they were full of shit. They wanted to sue over it.

Then Khalif countersues them, along with also suing J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk for harassment. since then transvestigation just becomes like I think a thing you can do to somebody but also I think it is getting diminishing returns it's also like getting another reason why I think it's kind of on the way out is because I'm seeing it used against the right more so like Kyle Rittenhouse has been transvestigated what the fuck wait is that he looks like a baby in the left one like someone put like a baby filter on him I think that's just like what he looks like I think he is just like a fat baby did you see the video Clevacular roasting him for marrying a woman with tattoos. Yeah, yeah.

We should have you back on to do an episode about clavacular, actually. Like, we should definitely be talking about it. I think it's probably generally bad to say that, like, right-wing transvestigators look trans. That's just, like, kind of a bad thing to say. I agree. But a lot of them are really, really ugly. Yeah, that's true. Both of those things are true.

Yeah. You're walking the tightest of ropes right now, and I'm so excited for where this is headed. So, like, it's like when you say that, it's like you're saying trans people are ugly, trans people don't pass by saying that those people look trans. I'm just saying they're not safe from other transvestigators. Yes, yes. That's all I mean. I came across a post years ago, a couple years ago of a British person again who... I just, sorry, can I say one more thing?

I just also wanted to add their, they're creating a precedent to create a world where I would be safer and then they would. Yes, yes. The British Facebook user I came across years ago was transvestigating Andrew Tate because Andrew Tate's bulge wasn't big enough in his speedo. Oh, I remember that one. Yeah. Have you seen that one of my favorite videos of all time is Andrew Tate being like,

would you rather fuck Megan Fox with a penis or Hulk Hogan with a pushy he's like you're not thinking about the question and then he said he endorses fucking Megan Fox with a penis over he's saying it's gayer to fuck Hulk Logan with a pussy the Megan Fox with a penis one of my favorite videos on you disagree then you're gay and he's right okay yeah I'm thinking it through and sure yeah I agree I think but to kiddies but but but to Kitty's slightly more coherent point I agree that like transvestigation is a fire that they've started that they can't really put out anymore. Yeah. Because now they're getting transvestigated and they're like way.

Yes. And so I'll spare you guys, but we have a whole list of like people who have been transvestigated recently. But it includes Sidney, Sweeney, J.K. Rallying, Elon Musk, Donald Trump, J.D. fans. Like it is, and I, you know, I'm sure a bit of this is like the dark woke stuff. Like I've seen people like. They claimed that, like, Charlie Kirk was murdered because he didn't, like, they didn't want him. The deep state killed Charlie Kirk because they didn't want it getting out that he was secretly trans, like stuff like this. Like, there's a lot of that.

And so, yeah, it's like you can't really control it once it sort of left the barn, I think. Can I just read this one quote on that point of where the conspiracy goes? I would prefer you to read it yet because I don't really want to read it. This is from a them article. Transvestigators often believe that the so-called trans-inverts are assigned handlers by whoever is controlling the alleged conspiracy, which, as one may have guessed, is where the Kirk case degrades into full-blown anti-Semitism. Since taking her late husband's place as CEO of Turning Point USA, Erica Kirk has been folded into larger far-right conspiracy, which allows she is part of an international trafficking scheme orchestrated by the Israeli spy agency Mossad. This all just becomes soup that no one can escape. Yeah, it's just nonsense.

The apparatus required to create something, these secret transitions, the fake pregnancies, the in this, I just can't, I can't latch on to this one. It's just too fucking crazy. What you're putting makeup on your stomach every day to look pregnant so people don't, if everyone was trans, fuck, man. This one really, like, really fucks with me. All right. Sorry.

Go ahead. You're used to being able to put yourself in the head of other people. It's an example of a conspiracy that you're like, this one I get. But this is almost every single one. Flat earth. Flat earth. Flat earth. Flat earth. Yes.

You look at the earth. It looks flat. Yeah. I shouldn't. Unless there's mountains there. Yeah. That one's like pretty obvious. Wait.

So lizard. Those are people. Lizard people. I'm cool with lizard people too. I kind of get it to be honest. I get it. It's like, yes. the things that elite people do are so strange so bizarre the secret satanic rituals the weird occult

symbolism there's been a lot of elite people that are like yeah aliens visit earth yeah and then yes and also the fact that they're literally real i've seen them yeah it's really easy it's really easy for me to put myself in that mindset even if i don't believe it to be true it's very easy for me to just go there with stuff like aliens lizard people flat earth with this i just feel like it almost makes me feel sort of nauseous with how deranged and confusing that it is and why someone would even choose to, it's not, it's not like a fun, like believing in aliens in the Ananaki is fun. Like that's fun to do. Ghosts, believing in ghosts is fun.

This is a fun. Yeah, I would agree that ghosts are more fun than this. You're one of the reasons I think it comes from a lot of insecurity and projection because you're definitely 100% cis and like not insecure in that way. Yeah. I also think, though, what you're getting at is. is important, which is that, like, there isn't really, like, a clear angle to believing in this. So, like, you have to tack on other stuff.

Like, if you write a blogger, you're just like, every celebrity is secretly trans and they're pretending to be a gender that they're not. And they're doing it, like, an elaborate, like, dress up every day to throw you off the trail. Well, the next question is, like, why? Why are they doing that? That's exactly. There's no why. And then when you fill in that why, it's something even crazier. So it's like, oh, it's because, like, the.

they're part of some sort of like deep state humiliation ritual or that they're going to make everybody trans and destroy the birth rate or they're being handled by Mossad or something. Like none of it makes any sense. That's sort of why I think like it has both stayed so prominent in the fringes and kind of maybe peaked like in popular culture already because like any normal person is going to be like, why are they doing that? That doesn't make any sense to me. Right.

On that point, Ryan, you have talked a lot about like early days at BuzzFeed covering weird internet stuff and being and having like editors in order people saying like this doesn't actually matter. These communities don't matter. And then like fast forward and they're in charge of the country. Is this a niche in a community that you're just like this is just too weird for this to ever gain actual capital? And then we're going to have. Then jungle surfer is going to be running for. president in 2028? Like, well, I see, I see what you mean.

Yeah. No. Well, yes and no. So it's like, I think that a lot of the accounts that are doing this sort of thing right now, many of them have moved on. Libs of TikTok doesn't really need to transvestigate anybody. They can. She can. But on the right, it is such a grave mortal sin to be trans just full stop that they could just say

that person's trans, right? Why speculate if someone's trans if you can just incite violence against a trans person whenever you want? Right. Right. I think in a lot of ways the sort of like conspiratorial fancy, like fanciful dimensions of this have kind of disappeared because you don't need them in a totalitarian state where trans people are so easy to brutalize with state violence or discrimination or all the rest, right? In a lot of ways, the stuff that we've been talking about in this episode, the stuff that happened in the lead up to the first and then, second Trump era is like table setting for that culture to take place. So like if you can make people paranoid and you can you can get people to question what is the proper way a woman should look and a man should act and what they should be doing with their time, you can create a world of gender essentialism that you can then enforce and you

don't and you can kind of, you don't, you can kind of leave the conspiracy theories behind. Well yeah, Pam Bondi just called us gender terrorists. Right. Exactly. That's where this is heading. It's like instead of saying like, oh, Rod Stewart is secretly a trans man, you can be like, well, trans people like legally should be classified as terrorists. Yeah. This is what makes it so insidious because now the structure is in place where you can start to say, well, not only are trans people terrorists, but anyone who doesn't fit traditional gender roles is committing some kind of crime.

So the only one safe here is Jeff. The only person who just. No, dude, he told us he goes to a barber to get his mustache. He's not being straighter than that. He's first to go. That's pretty strange to me. First, they came for Jeff, and I said nothing. Or I shaved my beard myself.

But, I mean, I think this does speak to sort of the larger feeling over the last five years or so that, like, culture has become just way more reactionary and way more right wing. And we're seeing it with, like, the way celebrities look and the way they act and the music that's on, you know, TikTok and the radio and all the rest. Like, it's all part of this idea of like, if you deviate from what a woman should do and what a man should do,

you're going to be called trans or you're going to be saying, or some other thing. And then they're going to, they're going to hurt you some way. Like, it's all part of the larger project. I think a lot of it is also an excuse to just perpetuate misogyny and even more because it's just being used against cis women.

Like at a insane rate, um, whether they're trans or not. It's just like we think you're trans. So we're going to be misogynistic to you. even though you're not, like, it's just an excuse to, for, yeah. Celebrities do be acting different, too. They do.

They do. They do. Yeah. Do you see the new NBA Young Boy albums called Make America Slime again? No. I mean, unfortunately, that title goes hard as hell, but. It does. No, but to what Kitty was saying, like, it's like the bathroom bills, yeah, they're going to hurt trans people.

They're also going to hurt any woman that doesn't look like a, like someone's idea of a woman. That shit hurts cis women way more on a way larger scale than trans women. 100%. That's already happened a bunch of times where some like, you know, lesbian with short hairs getting like thrown out of a woman's body through. Like male cops. Yeah. Yeah. It's like what you do.

So maybe NBA young boy is right. Maybe we do need to make America slime again. Wow. Hell yeah. Well, what. I want to thank you all for coming on the show. I want to apologize in advance to Grant for having to edit this and Courier for having to figure out how to put this on the internet.

And I want to thank you too for coming on because this was a great conversation. You're always a blast to talk to. If people want to follow, you want to follow. Oh, you guys are there. And thank you for coming to you.

For saying nice things about my it's a pleasure. Really, it's a pleasure. I feel very affirmed. But if people want to follow you on the internet, where can they follow you? Instagram's kind of home base right now. Yeah, Free Country USA Pod,

YouTube, Instagram. I'm Kitty Kim. We're on Spotify now. We're on Spotify. We're looking into RSS technology. We're on pretty much all the pod things except for Apple. Apple won't put us on. They won't put us on for some reason.

What? I don't know. Yeah. That's wild. Our message is really funny. Too radical. Too powerful. That's that's unbelievable.

I've never heard of that before, actually. I don't think that. You're where they draw the line. That's crazy. If we look at the top 10, if we looked right now at the top 10 podcast, it's going to be mostly right-wing gals. I've never heard of that. That's incredible. But yeah, thank you guys for coming on.

Thanks for having us. Okay, thank you. Panic Whirl is a production of Courier. It is written and produced by Grant Irving and hosted by me, Ryan Broderick. Josh Fielstead is our production coordinator. And our amazing researcher is Adam Bumis. From Currier is Shane Verkest, who edits our video episodes along with our producer, Devin Moroni and National Managing Director and Executive Producer Kevin Dreyfus.

R.C. DeMezzo is their VP of Brand and Social. Charlotte Robinson is their deputy director of brand and social. Marianne Couga is their director of marketing, YouTube, and podcast growth marketer, Samantha Hollos. And Tracy Kaplan is the Senior Vice President of Sales and Distribution. If you want to sponsor the show or give us products to sell, she's the one to talk to. You can email her at Tracy at Courier Newsroom.com. Be sure to check out the Panicworld YouTube channel, which you can find at YouTube.com

slash at PanicWorldPod. And please give us some nice ratings on podcast apps and leave a funny review. Lastly, here's my advice for you. Chill out and touch grass while you still can.