Panic World - This celebrity murder case feels like fan fiction

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

Today we’re talking about the D4vd murder case, one of the darkest stories in pop culture at the moment. D4vd — or David Burke — got his start as one of the original Fortnite streamers, who then built a big Discord community around himself, including an alter-ego, "IT4MI," and ultimately his work as a musician blending styles like bedroom pop and indie rock. But in April 2026 he was charged with allegedly murdering one of his fans, 14-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez. Jennifer Swann joins us again, to discuss the allegations and everything leading up to them.Our guest Jennifer Swann is a journalist and producer. She has a newsletter, Self Storage, which you can find at https://jennswann.substack.com/ and produces the investigative true crime podcast My Friend Daisy, which you can find anywhere you listen to podcasts. Want even more Panic World content? Like ad-free and extended episodes, bonuses, and access to our exclusive Discord? Sign up for a membership at: https://www.patreon.com/PanicWorld.And if you listen on Apple Podcasts, you can now also find us on COURIER+! Sponsors:Mint Mobile: Shop plans at https://mintmobile.com/courier for three months of coverage at $45. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Friends, hello. My name is Mike Regneta. I'm the host of a podcast called NeverPost, which is about the internet. Or really, it's about the world and why the world is the way that it is because of the internet. We ask big questions like, why do disgraced politicians join cameo? Why is it scary and satisfying to block someone? Would you ever create an AI voice clone of a deceased loved one in a show that you don't need to be terminally online to enjoy? But it doesn't hurt. NeverPost is at neverpoe.st and wherever you find podcasts. Hi, it's me, the other one. Just a warning before we start today's episode.

This episode's downer. We don't get really graphic. That's not what we do. But this episode deals with murder and child abuse. So take care. Today we're talking about the David murder case, one of the darkest stories in pop culture at the moment. And we're going to be talking specifically about what happens when his

discord of fans become the army of internet detectives that are trying to figure out what exactly happened in this case. So trying to start this episode in not an incredibly dark way, I would say that David's music sounds like absolute dog shit to me. But I guess like after spending a lot of time reporting on him, do you like get his music? Are you into it? Yeah. And I did feel like in some ways it felt like a I don't know like indoctrination is not the right word but I think at first and this is something that I've heard from my friends too or like people are age where they're like I don't get it like what's the deal with this music it's really bad like why do people like this is like and it was this thing where like at first I was like yeah I don't get it I don't know why people are so obsessed with him

his songs really are earworms like I would be listening to his like YouTube videos and like trying to be like let me look for clues let me see what this is about and like find myself like I was sort of disgusted with myself because I would find myself like singing it or like singing the lyrics like they're incredibly catchy and there's just like something that kind of happened over time where I was like okay I think I get it I think the best question to start is when did you hear of D4 VD or David or whatever you want to should we first we should standardize how do we want to call this guy I think David David I think so too yeah when did you first hear about David? When did he appear on your radar?

Not until after I heard about Celeste Rivas Hernandez's murder. I think, like, David existed in this place where, like, to a certain, like, you know, children and teens and, like, maybe 20-somethings, he was extremely popular for a particular subset. And then, like, anyone who aged out of that group, it was, like, everyone's just like, I don't know who this guy is. Is he really famous? So I only heard about him after the murder. then had no idea he had this like rabid fan community. I think I heard of him first due to the arcane soundtrack.

It's a Netflix show based on the video game League of Legends. He was like popping up for me in I don't know how to describe this like layer of music that exists right now where it's like it's not hyper pop. It's not rap or hip hop. It's not really even dance music. And it usually sounds like shit. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think like when people were hearing about him for the first time, they were like, oh, he must be a rapper. Like there was all this misinformation that people, like his actual fans would get sort of upset about. But yeah, I mean, people called it bedroom pop. Like it's definitely the appeal, you know, is that he's like, I made this on my phone. I laid some beats down here. Some like, you know, royalty for YouTube music. And so like it sounds very emo to me.

Like it kind of sounds like a throwback from like, I don't know, like music kids were into when I was in high school. of just like yeah like very slow kind of like sad boy songs yeah there's like a whole strain of music that has i think can has stayed in the underground but like just just beneath the surface that all kind of sounds like little peep if you're familiar with little peep goth boy click yeah yeah it's all goth boy click stuff and like he is probably the biggest of that i don't want to see a scene because it's not a scene but it's like of that style i suppose um and that's that's who we're going to be talking about today we're going to be talking about David or day or D for VD

this is panic world a show about how the internet warps our minds are culture and eventually reality i'm rand broderick with me is my personal goth boy and irving and today i'm first thing you've ever introduced me as that i'm like yeah that is what i am yeah you're part of my little goth boy click and making her second appearance on the show this is very exciting jennifer swan welcome back how are you thank you so much for having me. I love what you've done with the show. I was like thinking about it. Everything that you've covered. And I was like, oh, my God, everything just keeps getting crazier in our world. So it always feels loaded when someone's like, how are you? I'm like, I'm okay. I'm good. Yeah, but happy to be here.

It's almost as if we're living in some kind of panic world. Last time we had you on the show, you had written a fantastic piece for the cut about true crime, internet detectives, various rabbit holes. You're now back with another insane story that is very dark. One that as Grant said, before we started recording, or maybe after we started recording, I'm not sure when he hit the record button, that it's a story that you brought to us and we said, that's crazy. We absolutely should have covered that. So we're going to be talking about the fan community that has around David that have now become internet detectives. So we'll be using your piece in Wired for a big bulk of today's episode. And I want to start with broad strokes. How would you describe his fan base before

the the murder charges sort of appear? Yeah. I mean, his fan base super loyal, super dedicated, extremely young. I mean, I think as like David himself put out his first song on like sound, I mean, first on YouTube, then on SoundCloud when he was like 16. Yeah, he's 21 currently. So he's Yeah, and he just turned 21, like two months ago. So everyone in the story is like very, very young. There were like eight and 10 year olds listening to his music. And I think because he was like a gamer, like that was his whole thing. That was how he came up of like, you know, he claimed at one point to be one of the first people ever to play Fortnite.

He was just online all the time, or at least that was like definitely how he branded himself. He was always in Discord. He was always on like Roblox, always talking to people who tend to be really really. young in those communities, which of course is a problem. It is. Yeah, on the topic of this sort of subculture, I was having an unc chat with a friend at a bar and Greenpoint last night, and we were ranting to each other about how you used to be able to sort of understand what people liked and cared about based on how they looked,

which sounds ridiculous, I suppose. The good days. We used to be able to get to cast people. Identify your people. Yeah. We were talking about how like, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, if you saw a person with tattoos and piercings, you'd be like, I could probably figure out what kind of music they like, and it's probably like I'll turn it ever heavy or whatever.

And now if you see that person, nine times out of 10, they were probably just like a person who likes anime and video games. And we were saying this loud enough that like the bartender started laughing. And I was like, yeah, I bet you'd be laughing. You're wearing a thrasser shirt. And then I was like, named five skateboards. And a huge part of sort of understanding this world is understanding that like they have all of the aesthetics of what we would have called emo or alternative music 15, 20 years ago. But it is not really that. And it has nothing to do with that anymore. It's not like it's not like David has come out of the punk scene.

No, not at all. Like he he came out of no scene. He came out of gaming and just like being alone in his bedroom homeschooled. I know that's a topic that's come up on this show for various reasons. Definitely he is this person who's like, yes, you didn't have many friends. You didn't socialize outside your computer screen. And like, this is what you imagined like social interactions to be, you know, which is basically just like shit posting for attention. So yeah, his fans super, super online. And yeah, I mean, I will say too when you're talking about unkshit, like I have never felt moronk in my life than reporting the story.

And I think like all of us are on the same age. And like I, you know, I would be. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, but I would I would be talking to people who were like 20. And they'd be like, I can't give you my age because it's going to like ruin my clout or people are going to think I'm too old. And I'd be like, whoa. And like couldn't believe, couldn't conceive that I was like a human in my 30s.

They were just like, this is crazy. Like you're on Discord. What are you doing? Like these people do not interact with a lot of just like older people who are not their parents, I think, you know? Or people in general, I think. Yes. Can I ask a stupid question before we move off of this? Yeah.

Are there scenes like who plays different video games? Like could we not tell because we're old, but could they? they tell that somebody's like like i can differentiate somebody who's into metal versus punk like yeah probably by how they look can they be like that's a fortnight player or that's a shit poster in real life yeah yeah like is there an aesthetic and clicks okay so it's it's like gamers one like one aesthetic and it is not broken up into like scenes the way that we we would think of them i would even say i think even the concept of like gamer is unc yeah yeah Like these people's no because like it was all new to me like I I'm not a gamer and like but people would tell I don't know about aesthetic differences, but people would be like oh we like David because like he used a keyboard when he played four nine and everyone else used a console like just really kind of yeah like really granular things just about like how he played but maybe not so much about like how he looked you know.

Yeah and if you're like if you're talking about like how these people look IRL it's like imagine you just like put every alternative subculture that's existed ever in a cup and shook it up and like dumped a bit out onto a person. That's what you're talking about here. I just assumed I couldn't tell the difference, but amongst themselves, they could. There's no need to signify. It doesn't matter. Fascinating. Because it's because yeah, they're also bonding over like different stuff.

So like for instance, yeah, as we said, David got his start as a like a fortnight player. And he was known for using a keyboard rather than a console or whatever. His fortnight videos get him really popular and he downloads, you know, a free DA, you know, music making software, raps over some beats like with AutoTune, uploads it to SoundCloud and like the final days of SoundCloud. He sings. Yes, you're right. Well, yeah, sort of, sure. Everyone in the community, I'm a little brainwashed with him like, he's not a rapper. Stop saying he's a rapper, you know.

It's like a whole point of contention. I mean, rap doesn't really exist anymore. Let's be real. Like none of like all of this stuff is just like soup. It's all soup. Yeah. And he is like very good at at sort of combining that cup of signifiers that I talked about. So he's making anime references.

He's, you know, he's in the gaming communities. He's on Discord. He's blowing up on TikTok. And he gets comparisons to like Billy Elish and other sort of, you know, Gen Z artists. And this is all happening at the same time that you have like, are you familiar with jennifer are you familiar with corpse husband corpse no okay so corpse is sort of another example of this where he was known for having a really deep voice he was on the aOC among us stream oh okay and he started making like shitty industrial metal songs i was gonna say this sounds like a

metal band kind of he's a streamer named corpse but he started making like crappy metal uh you know that sounds like fucking you know butt rock to me but like very exciting for the kids. And it was all part of this like post-COVID, like Gen Z, gothic-y kind of dark music scene. And David, you know, his first big hit is called Romantic Homicide. At one point, David drops this music video and this is where he introduces the Atami character, which is basically him, but he's wearing this blindfold. He's wearing a white button down that is splattered with blood. And he's kind of also like helping people like in the comments of the YouTube video.

He's like, here is a Tommy. This is my alter ego. Like, he does the things that that I can't do. He's this evil mastermind. And so it sort of introduces this idea that whenever people see either David wearing a blindfold or there's like an anime, like literal animated version of David wearing the blindfold, that it's sort of like, oh, he's wearing the blindfold. Like he's about to do something bad.

And I think this all contributed to the lore of David, of people being like maybe a Tommy killed him and getting into this like weird sort of like alter ego doppelganger character that David had like fed to people. Um, so I guess this is where we should probably just say like that he he's like facing murder charges like that's what we're talking about today. Yes. David is facing a slew of murder charges basically been working on the story since like the end of last year I've been digging into this.

So, um, he only got charged with murder a month. It was like two weeks before we were going to run the story and we were just, we were just thinking like I was start. So part of the story I'll say too is about fans frustration with the fact that he hadn't been charged with murder, you know, over the course of like seven months. So, yes, he is charged with murder and like a slew of other, I think, you know, sex with minor, like lots of other really, you know, gnarly, serious charges. Yeah. And part of, I think, the driving force behind the, the internet detective movement against him is that he has been hinting at these alleged crimes quite a bit in public.

Yeah. You mentioned last time I was on, I was talking about this story about a missing girl who turned out not. to be missing. And so like I think the way that I approached it initially was like I had this like skepticism or this like kind of like, oh, are people just getting carried away or like, of course they're reading too much into every single song. Like there's no way it's this on the nose. And then as time went on and like digging in, of course, like once the charges dropped, it was like astounding the extent to which it did feel like he was breadcrumbing and literally singing about murders that he wanted to commit or did commit like yeah, like all of that I think I was

kind of like, okay, this can't be, this can't be. And then it's like, oh, yeah, like it was really, really insane. Yeah. And so his big early hit is romantic homicide, which debuts his alter ego, which is sort of like a, you know, like the anime trope where like there's like the shadow version of the main character. Yeah. Yeah. I think like Dark Link in Zelda.

He has this alter ego, Atami, which means pain in Japanese. But stylized, so for listeners who don't know, look at least. this up he stylizes his name is d4vd and a tommy is stylizes IT for m i get it it's what yeah you guys do guys do you guys get the symbolism it's like the same person well but like flipped sometimes uses like the letter a but like i mean that's the whole thing that i was just fascinated with him too is like his whole persona is so internet brain with like the oh this is good for scio to put like a four in it yeah all of it feels like an incredible marketing stunt that like like like even a publicist probably couldn't come up with.

But then in hindsight, you're just like, oh, this is actually really twisted and very sick and disturbing. So this interview was quoted in a Vanity Fair piece about all of this. And in it, David is quoted saying, Tommy has been a character that I had for years, even before music. I wanted to put him in comic books. And then he said that ever since for magic homicide, Atomi has been the evil version of me.

At some points, I'm even experimenting with the idea that Atami is writing some of the songs on the project as well. When his interviewer asked whether Atami had started manifesting himself in the real world, Burke revealed, so David Burke revealed that he was experimenting with that and further suggested that his malevolent character can manifest in different people, cause them to be chaotic, influence their bad decisions, and fuel their flame to do bad things.

It's going to be an ever-growing thing. I want people to come to the shows as Atami, who's on David's side, who's on Atmi's side, you know. very clearly like the ramblings of like an insane person but it's also very much couched in like cosplay language like he's like he's very clear that like i first noticed this shift when i saw harry styles live in like 2022 or 2023 and i was at a football stadium in brazil and i was i got a ticket to the show and i went and with some friends and this is a flex yeah thank you um and it was my first concert i think post

COVID and I was surprised by how the audience had all come cosplay as different eras of Harry Styles. Wow. And it sort of kind of opened up the way I've been thinking about this stuff where it's like I mean Taylor Swift has used this to great effect where it's like yeah everything now is a Comic-Con of the thing that it is newer artists are understanding that so it's like it's not just oh I'm going to go to the concert it's I'm going to dress like the video and then and someone else is going to address like another video, and we're all going to share each other's costumes

and sort of concerts have become nonlinear in that way, I think. Yeah, I mean, everything is like a layered reference to everything. I think like Swifties are so good at also just like looking for little Easter eggs in the lyrics and like referencing things back, decoding things. And I think like David was he very much like latched on to that from the start. Like he invented this idea of like the David verse, like literally thinking of himself as this like cinematic universe. as if he was like, you know, a video game or like a comic or like, yeah, anime.

And so like he was strategically introducing these characters. Like at Tommy was the first character. He never got to introduce more characters because his career ended because of murder charges. But like he was very clearly thinking about these things and appealing to people's like what he called the lore around it. Like this other Gen Z thing of like everything means something and like let's understand this world. You know, like he totally tapped into that. Yeah, it's been really another unk feeling of mine. It's like been very strange to watch the kind of barriers break down around what has lore and what has fandoms where like, you know, 15 years ago, it was like pretty, I thought it was like pretty established that there were rules.

Like you would be a fan of a TV show differently than you'd be the fan of like a band. And in retrospect, talking about kind of like the gothic romantic parts of this, I actually think my chemical romance is probably like the early. band to kind of figure this out where it's like every album has its own aesthetic they're part of a larger cinematic universe there's like comic books and there's all kinds of lore and it's presented as this sort of experiential theatrical visual project and gorillas well i would i would argue not guerrillas only because i haven't really seen the fans react that way to it like my chemical romance fans i think are like the earliest example I can think of of like a music fandom going like we could have an entire Comic Con for this thing.

Right. And now it's for everything. Yeah. And everyone had like the hairdoes, the eyeliner. Like it was a whole aesthetic that like people could package and it was like became like the hot topic. Like you yeah, it was like very marketable easily identifiable thing. Yeah. When I saw my chemical romance live last summer, I saw people in the audience who were dressed.

Thank you. Yeah. It was a great show. I'm seeing them again this summer. It was one of the best causes I've ever been to. I'm going to, but on the rival side, right? I'm going to go as a different version of Gerard. Ryan and I are not going to interact about.

I was literally about to say this. There are people in the audience dressed up in the outfits that Gerard Way had been photographed in earlier on tour. Wow. So like the fandom has like, like, fandom has like, fandoms have become like hyper, hyper niche to the point where like, you're dressing up as like references to like random photographs. you've seen on the internet. Like a few weeks ago, not even like, oh, this is a deep cut from the first album like

decades ago. It's like, no, he wore this and it was posted on Twitter last week. Yeah, like he did a concert in like a bloodstained cheerleader out from the 50s and there were a bunch of people just like wearing it and that photo had just gone viral on Tumblr basically. Were they all kids? Like did you see other other 30 year olds who are like you doing this? No, it's like everyone over 27 dresses in the way we're like I.

I'm going to have like my black jeans and my carabiner and my fucking Save the Day's hoodie or whatever. And then everyone under 29 is dressed up like a random costume from a random music video. Because we, it would be lame to wear the band shirt of the band you're going to see. Like that was always like and then you would always try to like wear a band that was cool and adjacent. Yeah. So people would go like, oh, you're into that. It's really interesting that it's switched to just cosplay. Yes.

Where before it had to be a flex of being like, I know the obscene. gear band that like this they owe it a four that's yeah and there's a weird zillennial middle ground where like people were doing what they call like closet cosplay where they're like wearing clothes that are normal clothes that kind of look like a costume if you squint and then the whole the whole thing just sort of devolves into i'm just doing full cosplay at this concert i mean it sort of reminds me of like disney adults too who like i feel like there's some rule when you go to the theme park where like you can't exactly dress like a character because it's like copyrighted and they don't want you to people who think you work there, but it's like, you know, they'll wear like a certain color of a

character or like a tail with, you know, a certain signifier that's like, if you know, you know, kind of a thing, but it's like so thought out. Yes. And that is all a, I think our viewers will be very happy for that little diversion right there because when we come back after the break, we're going to be talking about a horrific murder case. So we'll get to that right after a word from our sponsors. And I'm not going to do a joke for this one. I'm just going to say, here come our sponsors. We'll be right back. Hey, it's Grant, the other one. Question for you, who I assume is around my age cohort.

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Five gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available with taxes and fees. Extra seat MintMobile for details. Okay, so let's go into it. September 8th, 2025, a Tesla registered to David is impounded and the LAPD are called in because of a terrible smell. And in the Tesla, the police find the dismembered and decomposing body that would be later identified as the 14-year-old Celeste Rivis Hernandez. What is the reaction among David fans like immediately after this news and sort of how does this get the ball rolling, I guess?

from the fandom side. Yeah. Part of what was so interesting to me, I guess, like, as an unk too, was like understanding how people in their teens and 20s or even just getting their news and digesting it. Because I mean, also like, I live in LA. This was on the LA local news. Like I definitely remember hearing about this and being like, this is horrific. David, I don't know if we've talked about this yet.

David at this Discord. And this was the main way that he communicated with his fans and sort of like cultivated all the lore around his characters. So it was like definitely a marketing tool, definitely also like, to people being like, I know this guy. Like he's our guy, he's our friend or whatever, even though they didn't know him. And what's interesting is like the news about the body

in David's car, I feel like it broke like in the afternoon on this day. And weirdly, like no one in his Discord chat realized it until like late that evening. Like someone I guess saw the local news from an LATV station that had an Instagram post about it. And they were like, hey, do you guys think this is real? And so like the immediate reaction was like fake news.

Like this can't be real. Do we trust this news source? like there was so much suspicion over it. And I think also the, you know, a lot of these kids are like rightfully very cynical of just like growing up in a time where everything feels like a marketing stunt and everything is fake. And so a lot of people were like, oh, is this like a this must be marketing for his new album or like maybe someone.

So it was like it ran the gamut from either like this is a marketing stunt to the other end was like obviously someone stole his car and framed him. I saw that. Yeah. I saw that one. So I want to talk about sort of like who the players are in this discord. But first, like one thing that has never been quite clear to me, and I'm wondering if you know this, how much of a known entity was the victim Celeste before, like, because I've seen like conflicting stuff that she's appeared in his streams or his videos. Like did the fans immediately know this person? So there was a bit of a like timeline lag where like first the body was discovered in the car and then like a week and a half later I want to say, you know, there remains were identified as this 14 year old girl, not even 15 yet.

Celeste Rivas Hernandez. And that was the point when she was identified that people started just going crazy with conspiracies and not really made people believe that David had been responsible or at least had something to do with it because so people in the Discord especially like his moderators, many of whom were like fans, they were all just volunteers, some of whom were like at least one of one member of management team was in the Discord. But anyway, the moderators and people in the Discord kind of knew like David is dating someone named Celeste.

Okay. they didn't know she was underage that is definitely like still a constant source of debate among fans and outside sleuths and all that but yes she did appear in a twitch live stream with david at one point okay and she was never like identified like this is my girlfriend this is celeste but like she's in there everyone kind of puts you and two together like oh this is the girl once they saw her photo on the news it was kind of like oh like this is real this isn't a joke this is also probably good place to say that like david was very savvy about like integrating into the world of live streaming.

I think he was in like a stream with Pokeyman, I believe. Let me just fact check that. Yeah, it could be. I think she was the one being like, I'm really creeped out that this fucking psycho was in my house. I mean, yeah, I would be too. Yes. So this month, Pokeyane talked about the fact that like she's having nightmares about it. They had collaborated in some capacity.

Yeah. And he knew all of the right. sectors of culture to sort of infiltrate. Yes, totally. He would go on other gamers, Twitch streams that have like, you know, super popular Twitch streams and also just like he would do TikToks with like Katzai and like these girl groups. And so he was like basically just crossing. Oh yeah. I forgot about the Katzai, the American. Yeah, he would do clips like pop stars and then also with video gamers and just kind of like right. Yeah. Cross everything. Katzai is a an American-ish K-pop group for those who have not been following the meltdown that their fans are having currently

because they fell off really hard. Oh. Yeah, they squandered all the goodwill after their Gap commercial. I'm tapped in. Wow. God, I love that Gap commercial, though. I mean, like, where do you go from that Gap commercial? It's great Gap commercial.

This discourse feels so refreshing, though, this fan discourse compared to what's happening in David. I'm like, that's so sweet. Yeah. So talking about moderators, let's talk about Sophia. She's one of, like, a handful. I want to say, like, a dozen. Like, don't quote me on the number,

but she's, like, one of a bunch of other moderators. And she is someone who has been the most outspoken after Celeste was murdered. How old of a person are we talking about here? I mean, she just turned 24. That's too old to be moderating a Discord. Yeah. I think that most people in the Discord were like quite a bit younger. I mean, I spoke to like a 16 year old who joined when he was like 13, I think, because

he followed David from like a gaming discord. I think it's Sophia. Like she lives with her parents still. I think a lot of these are people who live with their parents. like their life is this discord yeah maybe because they're not in school or working or whatever yeah it's interesting i i did a couple investigations into sort of grooming cases in the 2010s and this exact dynamic was all over the place with like YouTubers i did a a years long investigation into a Minecraft YouTuber that was like grooming girls across europe

similarly with like this like group of YouTubers that were making like Doctor Who themed rock music on band camp and they were using it to groom girls and like all of these situations were exactly the same which is like a creep infiltrates a totally unmoderated space full of children and then starts like isolating them and talking to them at length the time the Minecraft YouTuber I was investigating was using Skype but it's the same idea where it's like we're going to just slowly you know create a little world under myself full of kids that I can talk to all day and And it's always really sad when you start to like get the stories of the people in these communities because as you said nine times out of 10, it's just like they have nothing else going on. So now they're just like in this weird digital world that like feels like it's important to them because they have not much else going on.

Totally. And David was like I think when he first started out and like before he really got a record deal or anything, like he was known for just being in discord all day like doing voice calls with people like just doing group chats. And so like kind of like cultivating these relationships where people felt like. like they knew him. And granted, like at the time, he was also basically a teenager. Um, but like once he got famous, there was kind of this like rift that happened that I think sometimes does happen when someone becomes this like powerful figure where it's like all of them were kind of fighting to be like, well, I knew him first. Well, he responded to my message. Like, oh, I got one time he called me. And so like there is this thing where now I think a lot of people in a span community are sort of like horrified at how much they were. He was like this

cult of personality where they were all kind of yeah, fighting each other to be like, well, one time he looked at me or something you know things so yeah definitely the reaction in the beginning and especially with sophia was like oh no like this is going to ruin his career we don't think he did it but like this is this is really bad kind of a thing like they were it was almost like they were acting like his managers even though there's the sad thing we're like they're all volunteers like they're not being paid to do this you know that is another like fascinating cultural shift that i kind of put the blame on the marvel cinematic universe for which is like the shift from i am a fan and i might have

of opinions about like what this is and how this should be or like what this band should do. And then like after the arrival of people like Kevin Feigy or even Taylor Swift sort of like, you know, and the Taylor version stuff. Yeah. It's a lot of fans now kind of LARPing as a producer or a manager and thinking about it like from a business standpoint, which is very weird. Yes. Like being like, well, this can't be good for he should do this first. And they would do that too in the Discord. Like people would give him suggestion and he would ask for it also. So like in some ways, he was also grooming the way that people sort of responded to him to be like, what song should I drop next? How should I do this?

And it like making people feel empowered as if they had like a say in it. Okay. The layers of it. It just gets darker and darker. Yeah. So let's switch gears to the sleuth side now because like so as far as our timeline's concerns, the body has been discovered. It's been reported that it's Celeste. And now people are sort of trying to figure out what has happened here.

And so I'm going to quote you directly. I'm sorry, this is always uncomfortable. It actually just happened to be in a taping right before this and, you know, skin crawl. But here we go. Celeste became a martyr nearly overnight. There were illustrations of her as a saint and avatars of her face taken for missing persons flyers. Her family once posted on Facebook. Sleuth saw her everywhere in screenshots of Instagram stories where a dainty hand showed off what appeared to be an engagement ring and an index finger tattoo.

The red, Sh. David, they alleged, has a matching one. And fans like Sarah start looking for clues. So talk us, talk to us about Sarah. Sarah is someone who, again, she's a bit older, I think, than his typical fan base. I think she's 29. And she is someone who like, almost everyone basically discovered David's music on TikTok. And I know that you've like talked on, talked about this on the show actually about how like music discovery on TikTok is like not really a thing or not as much of like thing that people make it out to be.

But it does feel like with David's community, people. were really like I should be clear it it was that seems like that's changing but like post-covid it i don't think we've ever seen anything like that ever like the yeah i would i would compare it to like the height of gangham style and like somebody i used to know youtube music video era like it was an explosion of yeah especially like alternative sort of like non-commercial music getting really popular on tic talk yes and david again like his whole origin story which again, like, I do, I do think he was a lot more strategic and savvy about it than he lets on. But like, people really did seem to find his music on TikTok.

Like they were all using it on later on their videos. Anyway, Sarah discovers him on TikTok. His, you know, loves his music, speaks to her. She was someone who also after Celeste murder was like, there's no way that David did this. She was in denial. She also thought he was framed. Someone stole his car and then committed a murder. And then like as more information started coming out about

Celeste in particular, she kind of like flipped and had this realization of like, oh shit, this is real. She's also someone who I think like, you know, a lot of us like grew up watching kind of like true crime shows and procedurals and really like wanted to be a detective when she was a kid. And so I think for her, it was like it activated something in her that was like a lot of true crime sluths where it was like she felt like this is my responsibility. And so like she's someone who was like trolling the Reddit, she was in discord channels. And she would talk about spending all night, like just staying up all night, like comparing half of a name on a street sign to like Google Maps and like taking Google Street View tours to try to figure out like where David was living at this moment. Like she became obsessed with it in a way that a lot of people did, I think.

Look, for older people listening, I'm sorry, I can't hold your hand through this. You're just going to have to accept the reality of what we're talking about. How does the username ghosts come into the picture? So goes to someone who basically also was in the Discord, also an early fan of David. He's the guy I was talking about earlier where like he was in a gaming discord with David. And once he realized that David was suddenly a pop star, he was just like, oh shit, I want to be in his fan community. He joined super early on was very like all about it. And then when he heard about Celeste murder, he again flipped.

He's someone similar to Sarah who was like very interested in true crime, very interested in like just Instagram sleuthing. He said that he had helped catch basically like a catfisher in his junior high school. Um, and so when this all happened, he was kind of like, all right, like tap me in coach, let's go. I got this. And it's funny because I, so I found him because he had been posting on Reddit, basically archiving the entirety of the discord chat because that's amazing. Yeah, like he thought it was going to disappear because he was noticing that people were deleting

messages in the chat and he thought that people were deleting it because it was like incriminating. And so he like downloaded all of it, um, uploaded it onto like the internet archive basically and was like, like hey everyone here's the file of course like a lot of people are like I don't actually know how to access this because it's like HTML files and it's super huge but it's funny because I was talking to him and like being like oh like what's your background he's like yeah I work with a lot of private detectives and then like an hour into our phone call I was like oh so like yeah who else you working with and he's like oh well I'm 16 so yeah I'm not really detective and I was like oh okay cool

yeah like he I was like I'm glad he felt comfortable enough to just be like yeah I'm a kid but like he definitely was playing it off as if like that was his full-time job was like a detective. Like he was cosplaying as a detective. Man. I was like, it's your parent. It is like,

I think part of the reticence from me, you know, about covering this is that like, I think a lot of internet stories are like this were like, you're talking about something really serious, but you're talking about a lot of stuff that is insane or inherently really stupid.

And that sort of combo is like very tough tonally to like wrap your head around I think even though it's become increasingly more common yeah the idea of a soundcloud rapper who got big on fortnight like murdering a girl allegedly and then having like 16 year olds do like hardcore data journalism to like find out what happened it's just a lot it's just it's it's it's a lot In the files that ghost saved, there was a trail of breadcrumbs about their relationship that the 16-year-old was able to archive. Can you just tell us about what he was able to save and like people found because of his detective work? Yeah.

And I will say to you, like a lot of this was collaborative work where he like posted it. Someone else made like made it accessible and viewable on a website. So it was interesting to see people really like working together to try who like really believed in like, we've. want to we want to see justice for this girl so some of the clues that he saw in the discord i mean i think he was he was hanging out with a friend and like the friend would just type into the search bar in discord celeste just her first name and i think they were astounded at how easy it was to find seemingly incriminating evidence just by doing that so one of the things was like um you know david was like asking hey like which song should i drop next and someone was like um drop

drop the missing one drop the one with the missing girl Celeste Rivas Hernandez. And so like, I think just that alone, it definitely implied some, at least one person in his discord not only knew who Celeste Rivas Hernandez was, but knew that she had been reported missing, like that she was minor. And then I think throughout too, there was also, so this also involves Sophia. Ghost was and is someone, I think, who was very suspicious of Sophia and all the moderators and what did they know and when did they know it.

And so he also found screenshots of her. So there was an instance where. David did a Twitch stream with Celeste. The Twitch stream ended up going a little bit haywire. Celeste, like, made a reference to David having sex with minors, which I think in hindsight, like knowing what we know now about what the prosecutors are alleging, it does feel like, well, was she trying to out him live on this Twitch stream, which is also like brave of her and just like, yeah, holds all this different weight now.

But there's this moment where Celeste says that. And then all of a sudden, David is like, we need to cut the live stream, cut the live. live stream and so he calls sophia to try to like figure out how to delete it and sophia didn't answer but everyone saw that in the chat where at one point sophia was kind of like boasting like oh well david called me once because he needed help to delete the live stream and everyone saw that as evidence that she knew who celeste was and that she knew that you know celeste was a minor which she claimed she didn't but yeah that was one of the things of just like sophia talking about like his girlfriend celeste and everyone was like there it is like there's the evidence that was his girlfriend there's a trove of

stuff that like at the time it's like that's weird that's whatever and then people were able to go back after the fact yes how how would you sort of describe like I guess like based on what we know from what's been gleaned for the discord and your own reporting like how would you describe the relationship between David and Celeste like leading up to her her death yeah I mean based on what we know I mean obviously off the bat it's like a predatory relationship he's he's an adult she's a minor allegedly they met when she was just 11 which is Jesus Christ. Just hard to even wrap your head around.

She was like a baby, like maybe like not even in junior high. I think she was probably in sixth grade. But I think on top of that there were there was like a playfulness to it. And of course like all things considered like this is very much a predatory grooming, you know. Yeah. A legal relationship like by all accounts. But like there was this like playfulness if the person in the discord who everyone believes to have been Celeste was her like where she would she would kind of tease him. She would troll him and like they you know like she would kind of.

Yeah, make fun of his name or like they definitely have like a clear sort of like rapport with each other that was very just like easy and like you could tell they just chatted constantly. And even when so the the charges just dropped a couple of weeks ago and and so much horrific stuff that I'm glad I didn't know at the time has since come out. And I think there's just troves of of messages where it seems like they were just in contact all the time. Yeah. So David was arrested on April 16th, 2026. And this is from the Vanity Fairpiece again. So the prosecution claims that Hernandez and Burke, David, met in January, 2022 when she was just 11,

and that their relationship became sexual in November, 2023, when he was 18 and she was 13. The prosecutors say text exchanges between the victim and the defendant contain references to sex, pregnancy, abortion, and the use of the Plan B emergency contraceptive. There are also explicit photographs documenting and corroborating their sexual relationship. but what was the motive for killing her?

The prosecution wrote in the brief that there are also messages suggesting Hernandez was jealous of Berg's relationship with other women and threatened to disclose damaging information about her relationship with the defendant to end his career and destroy his life. And then as you reported, the LAPD had already been investigating David before this. Yeah. Which is actually like even more heartbreaking to wrap. That's like that's almost like inconceivable to me. Yeah, so much of the discourse around this stuff, like obviously on Reddit, on TikTok, on Twitter was like on Discord, all of it was so dark to begin with.

But I think when this all came out and like, you know, the prosecutor, I went to this press conference where he was revealing this information. And like it was kind of shocking because I think like no one anticipated the level of like just the fact that so Celeste, according to the prosecutor, had been a witness in an investigation. involving like David having sex with minors. It's unclear to me whether she, like the investigation was just about her, whether it was probably about other girls as well. But like that whole thing, like there were so many theories thrown out. And that was not something that anyone had ever even thought of, which was, yeah, heartbreaking. I will say like in my time doing these kinds of stories and reporting on these kind of stories,

like dealing with law enforcement was a nightmare. Getting them to understand that the communication. infrastructure at play. I remember I maybe I've talked about on the show before, but I had this like this totally roundabout insane conversation with the FBI where I was try I was trying to chase down any information I could about this tic talker that was like praying on girls like right at the beginning of tic talk like he had moved over from vine or somewhere and he was like set up shop on tic and I called the FBI and I was just like are are you even aware of this guy like these videos you know, accusing him of grooming people are going viral.

They couldn't, like, they couldn't play ball at all. Like I eventually to be like, hypothetically, if you were aware of this kind of thing, would you investigate it? And the guy was like, hypothetically, yes. And it's like, it's, you know, I'm on a call trying to explain what discord is. Right. You know, it's it's insane that, you know, it's still moving this slowly, you know, six, seven, eight years later.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like this is the kind of thing where too, I think people like ghost, who is this like 16 year old that I don't know in my head. I'm just like picturing him wearing a fedora or just being like the like detective character. Like oh, not because he's a redditor, but because he's a. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think this is the kind of thing that really made people like him feel sort of like activated and righteous about it is because they were like the cops don't know this shit. Like they don't know how kids talk. They don't know how to get on discord. Like they don't know anything. And so I think like people who are really deep in that community were kind of like, I got to step up. I got to tell them what I know. And then I think like when still like, still the police had not made an arrest for like seven months since the discovery of Celeste body. And so I think people were still so just losing their minds that they were like, the evidence is right here.

Like go on Discord. You know, we archived it for you. And that was like just incredibly frustrating to people, obviously. I mean, I'm sure this will come out during the trial. But like, do you have a sense that it was like they were building up a big case about child porn and they were taking their time with it? Do we have any sense of her role and like how far along were they, you know, like should somebody have been watching, worried about somebody like wearing a wire kind of thing, especially a minor? Totally. Yeah.

I don't think we know anything about the timeline. But yeah, it does raise a good question of like the implication to me was that like David knew that she was. or maybe he didn't know she was involved in like a formal investigation, but like it does seem like she was making that explicit that like there was a threat of like you will be exposed. And so that is like the prosecutor's theory of like David's motivation and killing her. But yeah, it will be interesting to see like what. I mean, there's the other question of too, like how was she allowed to just live with him for months at a time, go to his house, which was like at least an hour and a half, two hours

away in an Uber. Like he's he allegedly just sent an Uber for her and picked her up at her parents' house. So it does raise the question of like, did anyone know where she was going? Did she have a parent involved? Like, yeah, I mean, I think at every stage of it, she was just failed by the adults around her, whether it was law enforcement, whether it was her parents. Like, it's just such a tragedy that again, like, you're like in hindsight, like, man, this, this sucks that she went to his house.

Yeah, none of this had to happen. Yeah. Yeah. And we're going to talk about basically how the fandom has shifted since the arrest after a word from whatever poor soul has decided to be the sponsor of this episode. Abercrombie. Yeah, sure. Yeah, hot topic. O'Crocks. Oh, right, it's Hollister. Hollister. Yeah.

Yeah. So to swing back to Sophia, the mod, like how is, how is she handled this? How of the defenders, the initial defenders handled this since the arrest? I mean, I think she, so she realized within, I think, like, weeks of Celeste being identified. Like, she kind of, she knew like, oh, this is real. Something's up. And like, I think by that point, people, just to backtrack a little bit, people were really kind of like digging into her and accusing her of facility. Like, so there's this thing that happened where once people were convinced that Celeste was in fact in the discord and people knew who she was and knew that she was underage, like everyone began pointing finger.

because it was this like vigilante investigation. Everyone was accusing one another of like enabling or facilitating this. And so she was someone who took tons of heat because people thought that she knew something just because she had like made a reference to Celeste or like being in a live stream and that kind of thing. So she basically like took it upon herself to go on Reddit and like actually respond to people and defend herself. That went pretty poorly at first. But like there were definitely people who are like, okay, we get it.

She's a fan who's kind of hurt and feels betrayed by this artist that she loved and she's maybe not handling this well. She maybe posted some shitty things, but like, you know, she means well. So she definitely like came around being like, David did it, this kind of thing. She's, but she's definitely someone who like, she has spent so much of her life on the internet. And I think now she's kind of like, this is too much, this whole experience. I mean, I felt bad even like talking to her for like fact checking and stuff because she was like traumatized by this whole thing. It was kind of like, I'm kind of like, I'm so glad he's arrested. Like I kind of can't keep talking about this. But the other thing that really struck me to like,

once I had more conversations with like Sophia and with Sarah and there's, you know, there was another detective they, you know, detective in quotes they worked with. Yeah. The thing that I was really struck with is that like a lot of these young women had all had experiences with grooming online. And so like I think that was that was really interesting to me to be like, oh, they're not, they're not just people who like true crime and are inserting themselves into this case, which like, sure, those things are true.

But also I think for them it felt like, oh, like I've been in Celeste shoes. And luckily, that wasn't the way things ended for me. But like all of them had these deep stories that kind of like came out on multiple conversations. And like Sophia was definitely one of them. That's like, oh, yeah. Like I kind of feel I know what she was maybe going through and I feel like I wish I had known. So it's, yeah, it was interesting because she was made into like this monster online.

And then it turned out she kind of had her own, her own story too, you know. It is interesting to me that like at the same time that Gen Z is so vocal about like age gap discourse that they're also, I mean, from what I can gather, like huge chunks of them are all in like completely age inappropriate like online spaces together. And yeah, I mean, a part of me like that makes sense. It's like it kind of goes hand in hand. It's like you have a moral panic over a thing that's relevant to you, you know? And so it is though a little maddening for me to like for this to still, like this kind of thing to still be having and be possibly more popular than it's ever been like the idea of like finding random people on the internet and like just creating a chat room with a bunch of

children and just like hanging out there all day it seems like it's worse now it seems like it's worse than it's almost ever been grant in the in the in the in the outline we have i think very astutely compares this to the com network are you familiar with the com network no um it's basically like a a decentralized terror network that connects on telegram and stuff. And they, they sort of get a bunch of kids in chat rooms and then use the extortion and blackmail and peer pressure to make them commit acts of violence. It's been connected to a bunch of sprees shootings of the last couple years.

But it's the same, it's the same mentality of like, I have entered this online community through some sort of channel, whether it's a thing that interests me or it's a video game I play or a person I meet in the lobby of Fortnite or whatever. it is. And now I'm just in this world and I, you know, I can't tell what's up and what's down. And it's happening like at a level that is very hard to wrap your head around, I think. Yeah. And there's this other thing. I mean, again, I feel like for me, like it was this like anthropological experience of like, hey kids. Like, what are the kids up to? And like, it was also surprising and like just strange to me to learn how like some people just identified so much with like their screen name.

or their avatar that I'd be like, hey, like, do you feel comfortable using their name? They're like, yeah, yeah, of course. I don't care. And I'd be like, oh, so what's your name? They're like, my screen name. Like, no, I don't tell anyone my real name. Like, it was almost like this private information where, like, no one could know who they really are. And like, everything they did online was just an extension of like, yeah, who they were and, like, how they were perceived.

Like, their entire sense of self was based on, like, how many likes they got on this thing or, like, how much engagement. And, like, it was very, like, disturbing. Yeah. as of right now recording recording this in mid-May his David's hearing has been delayed another month and basically it's going to just be duped out in the courts I mean from what you've seen like how do you think this is going to play out I guess I mean do you think there's more horrible stuff we haven't seen yet like and that's hard to that's an insane thing to ask when you've already

got like terabytes of child pornography and a murder charges and all the rest but like what's your sense of like where we are in in this i guess yeah i mean i think this is only the beginning which is like kind of terrifying um because i think yeah i mean just the stuff that's sort of come out in like the i think he had like a um just like an arraignment hearing and there's some discovery that came out and like just the stuff that's come out initially has been so far like it just feels like stuff like stuff from like the goriest horror movie you know and i will say too like he's someone who bragged in his discord about like watching gore videos on youtube and like becoming desensitized to violence and like there are there are all these like chicken or egg questions that come with like yeah his life

online and how this played out but i think it's going to get so much worse um yeah i don't think it's gonna uh get better for him in any way and that's probably for the best um i think he is someone who like Yeah, yeah. People, and it's just horrifying to even go back and see, like, the day that he allegedly killed Celeste, according to prosecutors. Like, you know, he was, like, promoting his album on TikTok. He was at a release party the next day. Like, the things that are just very, like, very unreal, like, not human behavior that I think anyone would have imagined. Like, I think that what he does is beyond the scope of, like, what even any of the, like, true crime sleuths are imagining.

And it's, it's horrific. I want to circle back to that chicken and egg thing because I think it's like a very relevant question right now, especially in the midst of all the like child safety online law bullshit flying around. And I think one experience that I bet like almost everyone has had some version of this with meeting strangers on the internet or having like predominantly online relationships. There's this moment where like you like you can't tell if someone's. doing a bit or not. Yeah. This was like a big kind of like part of like the beginnings of like the online far right in the 2010s of like are you a Nazi or are you just being ironic?

You know like that like. Yeah. And I think the fact that he is was savvy enough to sort of couch his violence and predatory tendencies with, you know, an identity of like I watched like fucked up stuff on the internet. Yeah. And this is why I'm like this. It's like I could see that being very confusing for especially young people who are like, am I like, is this real or am I just role playing?

A great version of this actually was depicted in We're All Going to the World's Fair, the film by Jane Showburn. Jane Showburn, who it was the movie she did before I saw the TV glow. And it sort of depicts a relationship between like a teenage girl and an adult. man who are kind of like egging each other on and the adult man seems to kind of think that like it's a game and the girl does not realize it's a game and it's like yeah it's effectively like context collapse and I think it's like very easy to it's very easy um to to like experience that on a digital platform basically yeah I mean it's totally confusing and hallucinatory and like I mean I was even thinking when you were talking about like Gerard way used to wear these like blood splattered clothing when you performed like David did the same thing. And of course, like, everyone thought this was an act. And, like, of course, that is part of his act.

But I think, like, yeah, I mean, by all appearances, he was just a psychopath. And yeah, this was all a form of masking. Yeah, I mean, I can't keep track of how many times we've talked about predators going into different communities on this show. But, like, they are known to, like, go into places where there's little oversight in a lot of gray area. So it's not surprising. I mean, honestly, one of the very first stories I ever wrote, you know,

back when I was in college was about Jesse Slaughter and 4chan and the band Blood on the dance floor who were, you know, making shitty goth dance music and taking advantage of young girls and sort of knowing that they could infiltrate communities on MySpace to find victims. And like, it's a tale as old as time, unfortunately. Yeah. I mean, it even made me think of like Marilyn Manson doing this kind of like, like stuff and like, you know, cutting his skin with glass and like stuff that like when I was a kid and like seeing him on MTV and stuff like it was kind of chilling. And I think like obviously like, you know, he fought back against censorship and all of this backlash that was like at the time felt really unwarranted. And it is that slippery slope about censorship where you're like, let the man be an artist. And then we come to find out that he's. Yeah, also a rapist. Like has this whole dark thing going on. So it is this question of like, yeah, is this their persona? The art from the artist. Like all of the stuff that we're still grappling with. with like yeah Michael Jackson movie all this stuff that's why kids should only be listening to ska music

i think none of this emo shit it's just got to be upbeat scott music you know it's safe yeah everyone should just be skanking that's right in person no internet we should just everyone should just be listening to the digimon the movie soundtrack yeah and just leave it at that and you've somehow managed to end us on a more horrifying thought that's right a question for both of you and also a question i I guess, like, for the universe. These are things that sounded like the satanic panic. Calm and the idea of actually like, oh, like the predatory musician who's writing about dark things.

Like these were like bad fiction of overreaction reactive Christian parents is like how we were taught to think about all these things. Has something shifted? How did we actually get here where these stories that now actually seem cartoonishly bad and we were told was just like daytime satanic panic fodder are now like yep guys talking about murdering girls in the in the music video and like confessing to all the things and like it's actually real well i mean as someone who spent most of my teenage years listening to i'm going to kill my girlfriend music um yeah like m and m you know i'm talking like boys night out uh fucking senses fail uh

like just awful MTV 2 screamo Ame more Scott Athetic lullaby A Thorne for Every Heart I can keep going But I listen to a lot of that music Yeah there were predators in that scene But they weren't actually the bands

That like people thought Like if I had money If I was gonna bet money on which of the two bands Would have a predator in it brand new Or Taking Back Sunday I would have lost that bet These things are notable Because they are the exception

Like it is not like every shitty emo bedroom artists like David is a predator using discord to groom people and it's not even true for like every streamer or video game player or whatever it's like those spaces are popular with young people and they are wildly unmoderated and some of that is actually good i think like teenagers should be allowed to hang out with each other online or offline but if you don't have you know safe precaution set up or or agreed upon social norms, things can get really wacky and they can get really dangerous. Yeah, especially when one of those people is famous and has all this money all of a sudden

and is like suddenly in this like different stratosphere than everyone else that they're interacting with, like even if they're the same age, it like creates this crazy power imbalance where people are just want, yeah, want to be close to that person. I think this idea too of like we've moved past the hysteria around like, you know, morbid. lyrics or like shocking stuff on stage like I think a lot of that also contributed to his fan's denial in the beginning is because like a lot of them were like he couldn't be so stupid that he would actually sing about doing this thing like we have to give him more credit than that like it just it felt like too shallow of an explanation or it felt almost like insulting because it was

so like on the nose and so I think like that also made people defend him because it's like yeah we should we should give people the benefit of doubt that like this is their art and they're not like singing about every single thing they've ever done in their lives. Also, and yeah, rare exception. Let's be real. This guy was signed to Interscope. I cannot accept the idea that no one knew he had a 14 year old girlfriend. Yeah.

Like, I'm sorry. Like, yeah. And the fact that like, as Jennifer pointed out, like his man, at least part of his management was in the discord. Sorry to interrupt. But like his management also rented his house like his mansion in the Hollywood Hills that Celeste was allegedly living with him in. That was rented by his management. He wasn't even on the lease. The landlord didn't know he was living there.

Like the management was very involved in his life. Again, because this is like a pretty sheltered, homeschooled kid who grew up in the suburbs, like doesn't really know how to live on his own. So you have to imagine there's like adults with money and influence who are helping him just day to day, like get a car, get from place like place one to two. Like, yeah, it's unimaginable that nobody know. Right. So I actually don't think the fact that he sort of had a morbid, gothic aesthetic is actually even relevant. I think it's more just like every single person with any sort of ability to stop this in this kid's orbit didn't.

And a girl died. Like that's how I sort of view this story. Like R. Kelly. Like any other predator. Like predators only work when everyone else around them doesn't say anything. Yeah. And they all saw him as a cash cow. They're like we're not, you know, like he was making money for the label.

And so why would they step in and interrupt that? And it's like it's yeah, it's horrifying. This story would be exactly the same if he was in a scoband. The music is sort of doesn't matter. And as far as like calm stuff goes or like the other kinds of Gen Z grooming stuff or Gen Alpha grooming stuff that's happening right now, that I always just put it on the platforms. Like if you can't come like, we would not allow someone to open up a storefront and be like, I'm going to leave and all these teenagers get to hang out here completely on their own with no super

provision. You'd be like, I'm shutting that shit down tomorrow. But for some reason, Discord can be like, you can have a 2,016 year olds in here and we're just not going to care about like what's happening in there. Like, that's ridiculous. I worked at a teen center when I first moved to New York and we hired somebody new who none of us knew was lax. He was like very responsible around us. And then like the rest of us would be upstairs like helping people of homework and he'd be down like with the rest of them. It was after a couple weeks and I went downstairs and like, They were all showing each other porn on each other's phones. And like the minute that there was in that like the adult was not adulting.

Like and it's like I don't blame them. Of course that's what they were. That's what they would do. What teenagers do? And it's just like, what the fuck, dude? Like you had one job. Yes. Just to close the loop on this because I can already see the comments coming in.

If you are a platform like Discord and you can't respect people's digital freedom and allow them to communicate, you know, safely, anonymously, and openly, while also not creating a safe environment for young people to do the same without stuff like this happening. Like, you don't deserve to be a company. You can't live up to the responsibility of what you've tried to take on. That's sort of my feeling on it. So, like, if you can't figure out how to stop something like this from happening, among everyone else involved, that also should have stopped this from happening.

You shouldn't be around, you know? And so I'm mad now and upset. It's so deeply upsetting, like every aspect of it. Yeah. I've been trying to be mindful that like people listen to this while doing the dishes or something. But like, yeah, this story is fucked and I just keep coming back to the fact that like she was already talking like the the LAPD was already investigating before she was murdered. Like none of this had to happen.

At every single stage there was a failure here. Yeah. I want to thank you for coming on and ruining my day and I assume the days of everyone that listened to this. It was great to have you back. And this is an important story. And I'm glad we're covering it. And when the trial is all over and we sort of have a full complete picture, what happened here,

I want to bring you back and talk about it again. But read Jennifer Swans, Pace and Wired. It's really great. Thanks. If people want to follow you online and not on Discord, where can they find you? I'm Jen Swan with Forens on Substack and Instagram, wherever else. And just before. Before we go, one fact check note, I'm actually not an MCR guy.

That was just a little bit. That's more of a Ryan thing. I don't want credit for that or your judgment for that. So I just felt a need to come clean before we close out this episode. Thank you. Panic World is a production of Courier. It is written and produced by Grant Irving and hosted by me, Ryan Broderick. Josh Fielstead is our production coordinator.

And our amazing researcher is Adam Bumis. From Currier is Shane Verkest, who edits our Vald. video episodes, along with our producer, Devin Moroni, and National Managing Director and Executive producer Kevin Dreyfus. R.C. DeMezzo is their VP of Brand and Social. Charlotte Robinson is their deputy director of brand and social. Marianne Couga is their director of marketing, YouTube, and podcast growth marketer, Samantha Hollos. And Tracy Kaplan is the senior vice president of sales and distribution. If you want to sponsor the show or give us products to sell, she's the one to talk to. You can email her at Tracy at Currier,

Newsroom.com. Be sure to check out the Panicworld YouTube channel, which you can find at YouTube.com slash at PanicworldPod. And please give us some nice ratings on podcast apps and leave a funny review. Lastly, here's my advice for you. Chill out and touch grass while you still can.