Piers Morgan Uncensored - “A War For SURVIVAL” Trump To Secure Putin Peace Deal? With Dave Smith & Bill Browder

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

President Trump will meet President Putin at an historic summit in Alaska on Friday - the first meeting with a US president since the Russian leader invaded Ukraine, representing what could be the biggest chance yet of ending three and a half years of war. However, Ukrainian president Zelensky is fearful that Trump’s dealmaking desires will result in a sellout, with territory handed illegally to Russia. But is there any alternative besides more weapons, more deaths, more sanctions and more suffering? Piers Morgan speaks to former US secretary of state for political-military affairs General Mark Kimmitt, Head of the Global Magnitsky Justice campaign Bill Browder, host of ‘Part of the Problem’ podcast Dave Smith, YouTuber Anna from Ukraine and Russian State TV reporter Andrei Afanasyev. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. True Classic: Upgrade your wardrobe and save on @trueclassic at https://trueclassic.com/PIERS #trueclassicpod Pique: Get 20% off your order plus a FREE frother & glass beaker with this exclusive link: https://piquelife.com/PIERS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You are losing guys. That's why you're discussing. It's a war for survival. It's a defensive war for us. That's the most Kafka-esque, black-as-white, up-as-down thing I've ever heard. He called it a war. You go to jail in Russia for calling it a war. Forget about Ukraine for a second. It will 100% continue to Taiwan, the Philippines, the Baltic. Who the hell would want to take over Russia? Russia doesn't have enough oil for us to be able. interested in. It's a country that's going into the trash can.

I got to say, Pierce, I mean, it's like, I'm just kind of disgusted by the tone. I got a general and a professional here who are, what are we doing? You're just trying to insult Vladimir Putin. I mean, it's like as if we're debating Sidney Sweeney or something like that. Oh, shut up. Ah, just the dumbest. Like, what do you? An 80 IQ? President Trump will meet President Putin at an historic summit in Alaska on Friday. It's the first meeting between the U.S. President and Putin since Russia invaded Ukraine, and it may represent the biggest chance yet of ending three and a half years of war. Ukrainian President Zelensky is fearful that Trump's deal-making desires will result in a sellout

with territory handed illegally to Russia. Any decision that is against us, any decision that is without Ukraine, they are at the same time a decision against peace. They will not give anything. These are dead decisions. They will never work, and we all need real living peace, peace that people will respect. Well, for his part, Trump says it's not his place to make a deal on Ukraine's behalf, but he does intend to help Putin that has got to end the war.

The main aim, he says, is to feel out what happens next. Well, we're going to have a meeting with Vladimir Putin, and at the end of that meeting, probably in the first two minutes, I'll know exactly whether or not a deal can be made. How will you know that? Because that's what I do. I make deals. It may stick on the cruel to see Putin a wanted international war criminal given the right carpet treatment on U.S. soil. It may stick in the cruel to imagine 20% of Ukraine being handed to Russia in exchange for ending a war it began.

But is there any alternative besides more weapons, more deaths, more sanctions and more suffering? Will the Ukrainian people, and for that matter, the American people, accept a deal if it comes to the guarantee of U.S. security? And can Putin be trusted to stick with a ceasefire in a war he is prepared to fight for the rest of his life? We have an expert panel to discuss all this. Joining me now is Dave Smith, host of Part of the Problem, Brigadier General Mark Kimet, the former US Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs, Bill Browder, head of the Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign, and the YouTube and commentator Anna from Ukraine. Well, welcome to all of you. Bill, from a purely military perspective, is there any alternative now to ending this war that does not involve Russia keeping most or not all of the territory that it has taken? Well, I think the most important issue is whether any of these parties want to stop fighting.

And the Ukrainians, of course, want to ceasefire. But Vladimir Putin absolutely doesn't want to ceasefire. He wants to continue this war. He has every intention of continuing this war. He has no intention of compromising. And this whole idea of having a summit is just a way to get Trump off his back so that all of a sudden Zelensky becomes the guy who's supposedly getting in the way of peace. He wants to meet with Trump. He wants to say, we're going to do some type of deal that would be totally unacceptable to the Ukrainians.

and then all of a sudden Trump is going to say to Zelensky, well, you're the guy who doesn't want peace. You're the one causing all this trouble. Putin gets everything he has set out to get, which is carrying on with the war, but he no longer has Trump on his back, which is what he's had for the last six months. Let me bring in Dave Smith here.

Dave, again, I've got a lot of military in my family, and they have said to me pretty consistently for a long period of this war that there's not. no way that Ukraine can actually win, that it may want to win, and it's shown extraordinary courage in fighting for much longer than many people thought it would be able to, but that actually it cannot actually defeat Russia. And therefore, what you're talking about is just a question of how much territory they'll end up losing and how many people on both sides are

going to end up dying. And the numbers are horrific, obviously, in terms of the death count. now, over a million on the Russian side, hundreds of thousands on the Ukrainian side. You know, again, there's two things to look at here. One is the politics and one is the military. From a military perspective, it just seems to me that Ukraine is in a very difficult position. Yeah, I mean, part of this, I think, comes down to how exactly you define winning or losing. I mean, I think if we're all being fair, the truth is that Ukraine put up a much better fight than many of us imagined they would have,

and I'll say myself included in that. I think it was back in 2014 where Vladimir Putin said, I don't remember if he said one week or two weeks, but he said I could be in Kiev in a week or two weeks. And that certainly wasn't the case. You know, Ukraine put up a very good fight and they protected Kiev.

And there's a part of that, at least, is that the Ukrainians were much more formidable than most of us thought they were. And part of that is also that they had a kind of blank check from the Biden administration in the Western world. Part of that is that since 2014, NATO has been doing joint military training exercises with the Ukrainian military. But I think to your point, Pierce, when it comes down to the stuff that like Joe Biden

and Nancy Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi, when she was Speaker of the House, was on record saying they were going to take back Crimea and that no territory would be lost. Of course, we were told that sanctions alone would win this war, if you remember in the very beginning Pierce, and the fact is that all of that has turned out to be wrong, and that even though this is taken longer than probably Vladimir Putin would have liked or at least was claiming it would, that, yes, Ukraine is not taking back all of this territory. And now the best that we could hope for is that some type of deal is reached here where the killing stops, as Trump said, in his greatest comment ever about the situation. And so I think we should all at least take it as a

positive sign that Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump are talking. I think it is absolute madness that for the last three years, the two countries that have the biggest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the history of the world have not had their heads of state talking. I mean, this is just craziness, at the very least lines of communication should be open, which they were not at all under the Biden administration. So I'm happy that this thing is pivoted. I don't know if it's true that Vladimir Putin has no interest in ending this. I've seen it reported that he's at least been signaling that he would be willing to settle for the Donbass region and like transportation to Crimea in the south there, but give back some of that territory. Let's all hope that that's true

because the truth is, Pierce, as Scott Horton has told you, as your brother-in-law has told you, the only option here is to send in the 82nd Airborne and the people of America simply are not willing to do that. We're not willing to actually go to direct war with Russia over whether Lujansk is controlled by Moscow or Kiev. Anna from Ukraine, welcome to Unsensored. What is the view in Ukraine about this. Like I said, I've been to, I went to Key four months after the war began. I interviewed the president and the first lady and was incredibly impressed by Zelensky, I had to say, and his resolve and resilience. And I've continued to be very impressed by his resolve and resilience and that of the Ukrainian people. But there comes a point in every war when

reality has to prevail. Do Ukrainian people believe that this war can end without seeding the territory that Russia has taken. Thank you so much for having me, Pierce, and for inviting other Ukrainians to actually speak about the realities on the ground directly from Ukraine. And to tell you, the truth, it would be much easier to end this war

if it was a conflict for the territories or resources as many keep describing. We all know that Russia is the largest country in the world. Trust me, has enough territories, and actually a lot of these territories demand attention and money from the Kremlin. but instead they choose to invest in war. And at this moment of time, they have approximately one million active soldiers.

They've lost a lot, but they also have an active army. They have a fully operating military machine. All of their industry is centered around the production of weapons. They are also making great progress in drone warfare in the war of the 21st century. They have trustworthy allies like China, unfortunately North Korea and Iran. And for me, it's pretty obvious that once again, unfortunately, this war is not about Ukraine, it's not about Donetsk or Lohansk. It's the way to demonstrate the weakness of the West, which Russian propaganda speaks constantly about.

I personally feel very sorry that all of the experts who speak about Russia-Ukraine war very rarely watch Russia State TV, where they openly speak about the need to extend further. And they mention a lot of countries, and they actually speak about. Berlin that was half Soviet not that long ago. So unfortunately if Putin gets a price, more Ukrainian territories and he's back on the international arena, it will be taken not just as a green light but as a way to continue. And the army of soldiers that he has, it's very obvious he does not want them back in Russia because this will create a lot of problems inside Russia. For Putin, the continuation of this war means the continuation of his regime,

and this is exactly what other authoritarian regimes also expect. So I may say a very surprising phrase, but forget, as for Ukrainian, forget about Ukraine for a second. Think about the destroyed international world order, the violated rules. If we start rewriting the borders of Ukraine it will 100% continue to Taiwan, the Philippines, the Baltics and 20, 30 years may have very bad consequences even for those lucky countries that are across the ocean from Russia. Well, thank you very much for that. There's a lot going on with the global economy. It's an entirely reasonable to wonder what the effect will be on your savings and investments. Consider diversifying with gold through Birch Gold Group. For decades,

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898. Again, text peers to 98989. 898. Consider diversifying a portion of your savings into gold. That way, if the fake can't stay ahead of the curve, at least you can stay ahead for yourself. General Kim, from a military perspective, is there any way to resolve this now without Russia keeping most,

if not all of the territory, has taken? Well, certainly there is, but I think it would come at a cost and a price that is unacceptable to anyone in the West, whether it's the European countries or it's the United States. More than likely, if we continue this drip, drip, drip of equipment, resupply, and ammunition resupply, this war could continue for years. In a little bit of self-promotion, I wrote about this in the Wall Street Journal four months after the war started, that this was a going to turn into a long, ugly slog. Could it end quickly with Russia losing? Yes, but one can only imagine the types of weapons, the quantity of weapons, and the quantity of soldiers

that the West would have to put into Ukraine to accomplish that mission. And that's a price that I don't think any country in either Europe or the United States is willing to pay. In terms of Putin's aspirations, you know, many are very fearful that should he be seen to prevail in Ukraine, should he do a deal with President Trump, which allows him to keep a lot of the territory he's taken, that it will simply emboldened him to expand and go after other countries because he will have sensed

that there is a weakness in the West to stop his imperialistic advance. I think after four years of war, that has been somewhat discredited, as well, a theory. The fact remains that he is fighting for as long as he has to take a couple of hundred square miles in Ukraine fighting a single country. He's got to think twice about trying to take on all of Europe and all of NATO. Now it's true he could do a lightning strike into the Baltics and probably get some land there. But there's no way that there's any chance that he could take over Poland, Romania, Hungary, and then have to fight 27 different nations to do that. This has been very, very costly for Vladimir Putin. I think he is not only looking for a way

out, he won't admit it, but he probably has moderated his war aims a bit. And it could very well be this is leading to a frozen conflict, very much like we've seen in Kashmir and until recently Nagorno Karabakh. Well, joining the panel now with a Russian view from the occupied territory of Dombas is the Russian state TV presenter, Andrei Afan Niazov. Welcome to you. Can you give me your perspective on what you think Vladimir Putin will want from this summit with Donald Trump? Well, I'm not sure I could tell you what Vladimir Putin won from this summit, but definitely now we see the result of color of revolution. inspired by the West.

It all started, the whole discussion, the whole problems the world has now. It started with done and it started with interfering of Western special services and governments into sovereign Ukrainian politics. And after that, the 14th year came 15th year violated Minsk from the West and all the rest. So what we see now is that West and the West, and the rest. that West understands that they are losing. You are losing guys. That's why you're discussing. That's why you talk like that. I was so shocked to hear all those propagandist stamps, cliches from your peers. I'm so sorry to hear that. It's a devastation for journalism

actually in the world because it's not an imperialistic war. It's a war for survival. It's a matter of survival for Russia. This all started because you were coming too close to our borders in order to actually defeat, destroy, and put Russia into pieces and digest us. And it's a defensive war for us. And this is how it's felt. It was felt like this back in 2014.

It was felt like this in 2022. And it felt like this now. And Trump is saying that, 88% of Ukrainian population is ready for the deal. But here in Russia, every single person understands that no deal will guarantee our security other than the fulfilled result of special military operation. So that's it. Bill Browder, what's your response to that?

Well, I mean, that's the most Kafka-esque, black-as-up-as-down thing I've ever heard. Russia is the aggressor. Ukraine is the victim. Russia's 10 times the size militarily of Ukraine. They launched an unprovoked war of aggression. All this nonsense about being surrounded is just complete nonsense, this whole NATO argument. In the meantime, as Russia has attacked Ukraine for the sin of wanting to join NATO,

you've got Finland and Sweden joining NATO. Is Russia now attacking them? It's just complete and utter, utter nonsense to hear that type of argument. And by the way, this individual probably should be very worried because he called it a war. You go to jail in Russia for calling it a war. You go to jail for eight years for calling it a war, so you better modify your description of what's going on over there because you have to call it always a special military operation what's going on in Russia.

Yes, Anna, you want to jump in? Yeah, because it's actually about the revolutions and so on. You know, this Russian propaganda messages they never worked inside Ukraine and they actually use them only outside because somehow the Western societies nowadays like themselves less and Russia uses that against unfortunately normal and healthy democracies. Inside Ukraine, they never managed to push this narrative, forgetting one very important fact that,

But three of the ministers during the Revolution of Dignity were actually Russian citizens who returned back to Russia, and one of them is now an active deputy of the Russian parliament, which is definitely a proof that it was a silent annexation of Ukraine, similar what they did to Belarus. But the Ukrainian civil society is way active and protected us from that. Also, this BS about the defense of Russia is something that I guess is even Russian. protagonists did not believe because with all the efforts with the occupation of some of the Ukrainian territories they did not manage to even fake any messages about either biolaboratories or an

operation that was preparing I wonder what did Ukrainians or NATO plan to do in 2022 invade Moscow or say in pieces but this is of course totally unrealistic and it's pretty easy travel to Poland and then travel to Russia and you will choose in which direction and a new body in democracy wants to develop. It's pretty easy to guess that it will be in the direction of the European Union, but not in the direction of Jakaterinvur. I am sorry. And of course, Russia was provoked, but Russia was not provoked by NATO.

Now its border is 1,000 kilometers longer than it was before the start of the full-scale invasion, another winning of Vladimir Putin. Together with many more that I can actually enumerate, and many global media forget to mention when describing the so-called inability of the Russian army. And also, the fact that more and more countries decided they want to join NATO was the fact that Russia kept attacking, Moldova, Chechnya, Georgia, Ukrainian 2014, Ukraine in 2022. So it's a pretty natural decision. Independent states can choose their future.

And I'm sorry, nobody wants to return back to the past to the Soviet Union. I have never seen any other country that past-oriented. They believe that they can find any prosperity, anything, only returning back to the past projects. You don't see any future-oriented thoughts inside Russia, so it's pretty normal, that there's budding democracies, that's starting growing and becoming more or less successful on the borders of Russia provoked Russia,

because they demonstrate it's actually possible if you don't have one ruler for 25 years that sucks all the resources from all. parts of the Russian Federation, you can build something more or less worsey. And that is why those poor and miserable Russian soldiers who entered Kiev region were simply devastated with the middle-class life in Ukraine. Well, true classic is never just about the fit or the fabric by helping men to show up with confidence and purpose every day.

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Okay, Dave Smith, we've talked a lot about this in the last two years or so, and three years now. You know, I don't doubt for a moment that Putin and a lot of people on the Russian side genuinely did feel an element of NATO pushing its luck, encroaching too far, representing a threat to Russian security. I'm sure they do believe that. But that doesn't give them the justification to, as I see it, illegally invade a sovereign, democratic European country. And nor do I believe that that is the only motivation for it. I think that Putin's actions in the last two decades make it crystal clear that he very much regrets the breakup of the Soviet Union. And if he got the chance, he'd very much reform it. Well, I don't think that Putin has really expressed that he would reform the Soviet Union.

has lamented the fall of the Soviet Union and the former greatness of the Russian Empire. But, you know, just a few points here, because number one, I do think the first, the most important thing for me to say is that I strongly disagree with our Russian guest here who described this as a defensive war or a war of necessity. I mean, I think that's just factually not true. This was a war of choice, and it was a war of aggression. And even though it is laughably absurd to call it unprovoked, Vladimir, Putin still did make the choice to launch this war, and he is responsible for the enormous

amount of human suffering that has come as a result of it. That being said, the defenses here and the responses are laughable. I mean, I was actually chuckling when you said, you know, you're needling him for not calling it a war rather than a special operation. You know, Pierce, the last time the U.S. declared war was World War II. Legally speaking, every single war since then, the legal defense for it is that it's not a war. It's a military action. Vietnam or Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, all the ones you could think of were not declared war. So that's a little bit rich. And look, the fact is, the fact is that Vladimir Putin made it crystal clear that Ukrainian entry to NATO was his red line. And this point about Finland's in there now irrelevant. He never

said that was his red line. He said Ukraine was. And it is a fact that in the Bucharest summit in 2008, NATO announced Ukraine was coming in is a fact that U.S. politicians kept pushing this over and over and over again for years against the warnings of Vladimir Putin and the entire Russian establishment. And it is a fact that the National Endowment for Democracy and the USAID poured close to $100 million into the Maidon Revolution. And if we can't be honest with ourselves and look back at this and go, why on earth were we constantly, look, I'm not Russian, I'm not Ukrainian, I'm American. I care about my country, as you guys should care about yours. But we should ask ourselves, why on earth we embarked in the policy?

of needling Putin over and over and over again when he had very realistic demands. Stoltenberg, the former head of NATO, said he admitted that Vladimir Putin sent him a draft treaty in 2022 before he invaded the country or late 21, and all he asked was that we put in writing that Ukraine will not be brought into NATO. Who on earth can look back at this and say we shouldn't have at least attempted to pursue a path where we would give him that a security guarantee. And look, it's nice, as the Ukrainian lady here says, it's a nice thought to say that sovereign countries can do whatever they want to, but the bottom line is that is not the way of the world. Mexico cannot join a military alliance with China. That's a fact. And the general here will be

the first to admit it. We wouldn't just go, oh, you're a sovereign country, sure. You can be a part of Russia or China's military alliance. We wouldn't allow that in a second. And likewise, it is in the state of actual geopolitics. It was a reasonable demand for Vladimir Putin to say you cannot bring Ukraine into your military alliance. And we should have put that in writing a long time ago. And I believe there's a very good chance that this war never would have happened. General Kimmel, do you agree with Dave Smith there? Well, I agree with parts of it. It's true that in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons after the fall of the wall, that the United States agreed that Ukraine would not be part of NATO. In fact, we said that we wouldn't

expand NATO to the east. But all of those agreements, of course, have been violated by the Russians as well. I'd just kind of like to go back to what I thought was the right point, which is the notion that the Russian view that the West is coming to take over Russia is laughable in Kafkaesque. I was in Germany when the wall fell in 1989, and you couldn't drive from west to east because of all the cars coming across from the Warsaw Pact, the Workers' Paradise, the Soviet Socialist Republics. People were voting with their feet, and they weren't voting to go east. I was able to get into the Warsaw Pact, and I've been into Russia. My question would be, who the hell would want to take over Russia? It's a declining nation. The average life expectancy is going down. The standard

living is one half of that of the West. You can say we're going for the oil, but Russia doesn't have enough oil for us to be interested in. It's as ludicrous as the United States desire and to take over Canada. At least Canada is first world country. Russia is a gas station disguised as a country, and it's a country that's going into the trash can. So this predicate that Russia is doing this, simply to keep the West out, well, I would remind everybody what NATO was formed for. It was to keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down. But taking a look at what's happened to Russia since it became the Workers' Paradise, I'd say, I wouldn't buy any real estate there,

and I don't think any country would want to attack Russia because they'd be left with the overhang of taking over that dying nation. Donald Trump speaking today at the White House was asked about the meeting with Putin on Friday. He said he sees it as a feel-out meeting. He said Putin wants to get involved. He believes Putin wants to get the war over with. He said he will tell Putin he's got to end this war.

He's got to end it. But he won't be making a deal between Russia and Ukraine, adding it's not up to me. And when asked if Zelensky would attend, he said he wasn't part of it. I would say he could go, but he's gone to a lot of meetings. He's been there for three and a half years and nothing happened. Trump said it would probably better tell a deal will be made probably in the first two minutes of his meeting with Putin.

So a lot there, but he clearly believes Putin wants peace. He thinks he'll get the feel out reading from Putin very quickly, and he doesn't think Zelensky needs to be there. What do you think? Well, I think he's going to be as disappointed in talking to President Putin as the early projections that he made somewhat of the old George Bush. I looked into his soul speech. The fact remains, the war aspirations that President Putin have not changed.

Take over parts of Ukraine, keep them out of NATO, and get rid of Zelensky. At no time have I ever heard President Putin say anything but that. And correspondingly, with President Zelensky, I've heard him say nothing other than a return. of all our lands to include Crimea, Russia pays reparations. So those war aims are so far apart that if we're able to get even a succession of hostilities for 24 to 48 hours, I would consider that to be an accomplishment in Alaska, but I don't think we're going to see that.

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That's peak, P-I-Q-U-E, like. life.com slash here. Well, we have Andre back. Andrew, I want to remind you of what General Kim has said. Who the hell would want to attack and take over Russia? It's a dying country, a gas station disguised as a country. It's going into a trash can and it doesn't have enough oil for us to be interested in. Your response, please.

Well, thank you, General. That was a good joke. I think it was a long time. since you've been to Russia or to any other country of the Soviet Union, because in the recent 30 years a lot of change. But the fact that you guys all are discussing meeting of President of Russia and President of the United States means that Russia is not a trash country that's running into a trash camp,

but one of the most powerful countries in the world that is respected and feared. And this is how it is. and it always would be like that. So you need to deal with that. You need to deal with the fact that Russia is a strong sovereign state with its national interests, and we will defend our interests with all the means we have. And our means are broad and powerful.

So that's it. I hope that the general understood my thought. My only response is I hear that same speech from the North Korean leader as well. Yes, well. What have you done to North Korea recently? Nothing. We haven't done anything to it.

That's a general. Just as we would not do anything to Russia. General, you didn't manage to do anything to Pallips in Afghanistan. So we are living in the world of declining United States. I respect this country, these people. But we are living in the world of declining unipolar world and globalization. And part of Americans understand it. and understand that they have their own business.

And other parts still think that the United States is the only global hegemon in the world. So it's just, I mean, it's a matter of choice for you, all of you. But the world has changed a lot, and you need to deal with that. We are not going back. We are defending our interests, our lands, our people, no matter what. And for Russia, for the second time, I'm saying this, it's a matter of survival. The fact remains is just because you're defending, which is your sovereign right, doesn't mean you need to be attacking and taking those sovereign rights away from other people in other lands. The thing is that people in Crimea and people in Donbass are our people. And that's not what people in Moscow say. That's what people of Donbos, Crimea and other parts of Nova Russia are saying. That's the point.

mate next question let me bring in bill broader but bill i was going to ask you about what you think putin's overarching motivation is here and we'll come to that but on that point that andre just made there is a belief that's been put out there that many people in crimea many people in madombas would actually prefer to be russian what do you say to that i i don't think it's It's true at all. I think that in Crimea, when they had the referendum, you had all these soldiers go into, Russian soldiers go in and hold a referendum where people had a gun, literally a gun to their head. And so who's going to vote against that if you're going to be shot or imprisoned for wanting to be independent? I mean, you know, as the general said, you know, people aren't, it's not like people from free country,

are desperately trying to go to live in Russia in a totalitarian regime. Russians are all desperate to go to the West. As much as they can, they're leaving Russia and trying to emigrate to free countries and to countries with good economics and to try to get out of Russia. A million able-bodied Russian young men left when the war started because they didn't want to be cannon fodder.

It's the major sanction against Russian oligarchs is that they couldn't enjoy the West because they like to steal money in Russia and then spend it in Santropay and Sardinia in Italy. Russia doesn't have a good offering for people. It's a totalitarian state. I mean, I feel sorry for this individual here. I don't know what's motivating him for saying all this stuff. but it certainly isn't the truth. He's saying a bunch of propaganda stuff. Maybe he's being paid, or maybe he's just scared.

And I know a lot of people in Russia who have criticized the war and found themselves in prison. You're not allowed to even say anything about it. If you have a different point of view, you go to jail. How is that a country that anyone would want to live in? And Bill, just on that bigger point about the overarching ambitions of Putin, what do you think he really wants? It's very clear to me. And I've lived in Russia for a long time, and I've been at war with Putin on a personal basis for a long time.

And I know this individual, I know what he's motivated by. And he's been running a kleptocracy in which he and about a thousand other individuals have stolen a trillion dollars from the Russian state. And you can't do that in a country with 140 million people and expect that the people to put up with, it and he basically stole too much money and what he's worried about now is the people of russia rising up against him and so if you're a dictator and you're worried about your people rising up against you what do you do you find a foreign enemy and you start a war and this is straight out of machiavelli 101 that this war is not about nato it's not about being surrounded it's not about expanding any empire it's about a little man vladimir putin who's desperately scared of his own people, desperately scared of losing power,

getting strung up by a lamp post. And the best way of avoiding that is to create a foreign enemy and start a war. And that's what this war in Ukraine is all about. And that's why Putin is not gonna give up this war. And that's why another million Russian young men are gonna die. And it doesn't matter what happens in Alaska

because Putin doesn't wanna end the war because he understands if the war ends, then he loses his job and he dies. And he doesn't wanna die. You know, Dave Smith, in a way, you could paint a similar picture without the death part about Netanyahu and what's happening in Israel, that one of the reasons many people believe he continues to prosecute this war in Gaza is for self-interest to avoid corruption, charges and trial when it's over, to avoid accountability for October the 7th and so on. But in relation to Putin, do you agree with what Bill Barrett has said that? No, not particularly.

And yeah, I don't think that's, yeah, it applies to Netanyahu. It applies to Vladimir Putin. George W. Bush famously said that his daddy's big mistake was not keeping the war going for his reelection campaign. And that's how, that's why he was a one-term president. And I just, I got to say, Pierce, I mean, it's like, I'm just kind of disgusted by the tone of this entire discussion. I mean, it's like as if we're debating Sidney Sweeney or something like that. But I got a general and a professional here who are, what are we doing? You're just trying to insult Vladimir Putin, insult Russia.

It's like the most childish, immature, just taunting. There's an actual war going on right now where hundreds of thousands of people have been dying. And there's a meeting coming up between the two leaders of the United States and Russia. As I said before, 90% of the world's stockpile of nuclear weapons. Let's all take this down a notch. Vladimir Putin has at least signaled recently that he will maybe is open to the idea. of keeping the Donbass region, Donnask in Luhansk, of getting a corridor to Crimea, and of leaving some of the other territory. Why are we not all pushing in that direction?

And why this constant need to make these insults, you know, like, I don't know, I'm an American, I don't see why I inherently have to have beef with the Russian people. I think my government is corrupt, I think their government is corrupt, but to sit here and be like, you guys are a gas station with nothing. The Russian people have a great culture and a great history. the Soviet Union was a menace and we had a real problem with them, but the Soviet Union's been gone for many decades at this point. And I just find that the kind of nature of this just insulting back and forth to be beneath the magnitude of this conversation. It is undeniable that the West did a lot to provoke this conflict. It's just undeniable. Our CIA director, through all of Joe Biden's

term, Bill Burns, was the one who wrote the Niet Means NETMO, who warned Condoleezza Rice, do not keep pushing in this direction. And we continued pushing regardless. It's resulted in this catastrophe. Like I said before, Pierce, I'm not absolving Vladimir Putin of any responsibility. He launched this war and he's responsible for the destruction. But for God's sake, Pierce, you start this at the beginning asking like, but what's the actual plan?

Like, what's the military plan for how you can evict the Russians? Nobody here has anything. So what do you want to do? Let's try to negotiate an end to this so people stop dying. It is the best case scenario. And it's our only chance to get out of this at this point, is if we can work out some deal. So for God's sake, let's try to push toward that. With all of these wars, Pierce, you know, all the wars over the last 25 years in my life,

it's always like the propaganda keeps on moving and moving and moving. There's a lot of bluster about who the good guys and who the bad guys are. But when you start the program by asking a simple question, like, what is the exit strategy here? What is the plan? no one really has anything. No one has anything other than maybe we could keep sending weapons and money in and this slow grind of people dying will continue

and Vladimir Putin will then at the end of that take the territory he wants. Let's try to negotiate an end to this nightmare that never needed to happen. Yeah, that's exactly what Neville Chamberlain. I'll come to... Shut up. Just the dumbest, like what do you?

AdiQ Neville Chamberlainment. That's right. A piece of anybody ever arguing against war? is always Neville Chamberlain. That is the one and only lesson of history that appeasement never works and aggression is always right. What did you take some of the lessons from...

If it doesn't work with a dictator, you obviously don't know Vladimir Putin. Appeasement, we appease dictators all over the planet right now. I just said something that I actually meant that I think was more than just surface level, and your response is with the dumbest, like, slogan. We appease dictators all over the world. We overthrow democratically,

elected governments and prop up dictators. What are you even talking about? You're using all these ad hominem attacks, but basically we're at a war. It's not an ad hominem. What are you talking about? 80 IQ, that's a bunch of nonsense. You obviously don't know the issues. No, I think your argument.

I'm saying the argument is that of a person with an 80 IQ. You don't know that you don't know the issues. You obviously are not educated on the issues. The reason why Vladimir Putin is at war is for his own personal survival. He's not going to stack off from this war to, to then appease him at this moment to give him Ukraine is just a complete. You're not giving him. You're not giving him anything. It's not yours to give. He took it and you can't get it back. Deal with that reality. Sorry. You could impose crippling sanctions on him.

You could give the Ukrainians. Oh, sanctions. More sanctions. And then you could negotiate from a position of strength. You don't negotiate from a position of weakness, which is what's being- There's Joe Biden's. There's Joe Biden's plan. He could, we could end the war with sanctions. You don't have to call it Joe Biden. We're years. You don't have to call it Joe Biden's anything.

You don't have to politicize logic. I'm not politicizing anything. You're saying Joe Biden. Okay, now let me respond. Yeah, yeah. Yes, he was, I'm not sure if you're familiar. He was the former president of the United States, and this was his plan.

We ran this experiment. It did not work. It led to hundreds of thousands of people more dying, and now we're here. The experiment that we ran is to give the Ukrainian weapon. I'm sorry. I got it. Fair enough.

Can I, Pierce, if you know, the general, a quick question. Because, yeah, one second. General, you're more of an expert in this than me. Sanctions can drive Putin out. Are you going to back that up with your name behind it? Sanctions can reclaim all Ukrainian territory? No, I mean, I've been a firm of course. Disbeliever in the notion of sanctions around the world,

whether it's in Iran, whether it was with the Taliban, but combined with other elements, such as military power, diplomatic power, there's a chance that is a component of a plan, you might get to something where you say nobody's got a proposal here. I think what we're going to see is a frozen conflict. And let's be very clear, you got a frozen conflict in Kashmir. For years you had a frozen conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, and now there's been a resolution to that frozen conflict. And hopefully we can see at least a ceasefire that can hold.

hold off the killing of both brave Ukrainian soldiers and brave Russian soldiers. I never did insult the Russian people. I insulted the Russian government. The fact is their government has drugged them into a war that if polled probably wouldn't poll that well. But back to your point, sanctions probably won't work if that's the only trick we have in our bag. Military power that demonstrates we're willing to back the Ukrainians for as long as it takes with what they need, as well as other elements of national power. That has a chance, number one, to stop the war. Number two, perhaps get it into a ceasefire slash frozen conflict. And number three, over time, perhaps negotiate a settlement that works for both sides. I think that time is now, sir. And I think that's hopefully what

they can do. I'm going to give. Well, let's not. Let's see what happens. I agree with you. I hope it can be done. Anna, final word to you. Thank you so much. You know, here in Ukraine, we understand that any frozen conflict will not bring us last thing peace. We were at war with Russia, be Soviet Union or Russian Empire for 300 years. So every time someone said this is a NATO-provoked U.S. provoked conflict. No one in Ukraine buys that. Another important point I don't hear others mentioning is that. Russia is perhaps the weakest ever at this point. And Vladimir Putin is way more far away from the purposes, the tasks of his special military operation that he was in 2022.

He wanted to demilitarize Ukraine. Now we are pretty militarized and also a lot of facilities, military facilities are built inside Ukraine. And I hope a time will come when we will use our ballistic missiles without us. a permission of getting some restrictions on targeting Russian oil refineries, which is super infam. Also, back in 2020, Russia controlled not just more of the Ukrainian territory, but actually more of the Russian territory. This war exposed that Putin's blaze creek failed, and his intelligence perhaps informed him really bad about the attitude inside Ukraine. Then we demonstrated that Russia has super vulnerable borders, and the intelligence is not working

working properly. Russia is now literally a no-fly zone. First of all, because of the Ukrainian drones targeting legitimate military facilities and other stuff, they literally close their airports. There are explosions, air raid alerts in dozens of the Russian regions. When did it start after Putin decided he will defend Russia this way? So literally all of his plans collapsed. And moreover, former satellites of Russia, Countries like Armenia, like Kazakhstan, they realize what threats Russia imposes for their serenity and independence, and they actually started going away from Russia. That's exactly what we witness right now.

Nobody from the former Soviet countries that Putin can consider as the future zones for his attacks, consider him strong enough. And right now they are actually for other alliances and unions, as Russia has already lost the control over Syria. Russia did not manage to help Iran. Russia has serious problems with oil refineries. Don't you think they want to protect them? But every night we have them exploding with inexpensive inside Ukraine developed drones.

And I do agree when many of you compare this moment and this meeting to a meeting between Chambolene and Hitler with one very, very important difference. Ukraine is no more at Czechoslovakia in 1938. During this three and a half years, we became way stronger. And despite Russian propaganda, during this year and a half of summer offensive, Russia managed to get one percent of the Ukrainian territory and lose how many hundreds and thousands of Russians. And trust me, the presence of North Koreans soldiers on the front lines is not a sign of success. The fact that up to 60 percent of missiles they now targets on Ukraine,

Ukraine is from North Korea is not a sign of strengths. OK, Anna, thank you very much indeed. We lost Andre. I don't know whether he left voluntarily or through tech issues, but he departed. Thank you to my panel, an excellent debate, and it's going to be a fascinating summit. I suspect Trump's right. We'll know in the first two minutes away it's going to go. But I will look forward to it with hope.

Hope in my heart that this horrible war can come to an end sooner or rather than later. very much. Thanks, Pearson. Piers Morgan Unsensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Pierce Morgan Unsensored on Spotify and Apple Podcast. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free.

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