Piers Morgan Uncensored - “DEFINITELY An Inside Job!” The Louvre Heist With Michael Franzese, Jewel Thief & More

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

The audacious heist at The Louvre has captured the world’s imagination after four men in construction vests pulled up in a stolen furniture truck in broad daylight and used an extending ladder to break in and raid display cases with disc cutters, taking off with France’s priceless crown jewels in less than seven minutes. Their loot included a diamond necklace given by Napoleon to his second wife and now more than 100 investigators are working on the case. The first arrests have been made - but the world is asking, how could this happen in one of the busiest museums in the world? Piers Morgan speaks to world-renowned art detective Arthur Brand before further discussing the case with Ashton Bingham and Artsiom Kulik, hosts of the new Fox series ‘Scammed: Getting Even’, former mobster Michael Franzese, Larry Lawton AKS YouTube’s Jewel Thief and Cain Vincent Dyer, who was once one of the most prolific bank robbers in the US... Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Superpower: No more guessing your health. Visit https://Superpower.com today! Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Most museum thefts have somebody on the inside, tipping them off. Look, I work there. It's not that difficult to steal from that museum. And, you know, if you pay me some money, I give you the details. You know, this was definitely an inside job, Pierce. You don't do this without inside information. So it was definitely an inside job, no question. They will find that person at some point.

So I'm talking about the mistakes that were made. Obviously, I did, you know, X amount of stores, 25, 30 stores, and I never dropped a ring, no less a crown. I would never leave some DNA like that. And when you go on dark web, oh my God, you can get, you can buy submarine, you can sell submarine. You can steal the jewels, you can buy the jewels, right? People, private investors, that are absolutely wealthy and they will pay any price under any circumstances to get hands on these type of jewels. The audacious heist at the Louvre has captured the world's imagination.

In broad daylight, four men in construction vests pulled up in a stolen third. furniture truck and used an extending ladder to break in and raid display cases with disc cutters. Less than seven minutes later, they escaped on motorbikes, taking France's priceless crown jewels with them. Their loot included a diamond necklace given by Napoleon to his second wife. More than 100 investigators are now working on the case, and the first arrests have been made, but the whole planet is asking the same question. At the world's most famous and popular museum, how the hell did this happen? In a moment, we'll get our answer. from a bank robber, a mafia boss, and a pair of scamming experts.

We will begin with the world-renowned art detective Arthur Brand. Arthur Brand, thank you very much indeed for joining me. How did this happen? Well, it's still a mystery. Nobody thought it could be possible to rob the Louvre, you know, the most famous museum in the world. But apparently, these guys were able to do this in seven minutes. They went there disguised as construction workers. They had a mechanical ladder with them.

They entered. They smashed a few display cases. And they went off. Then they're all in seven minutes. So nobody understands how this could have been possible. They managed to get away with millions and millions of euros worth of jewels, including some of France's crown jewels. So, I mean, the scale of this is absolutely enormous.

Yes. And it's, you know, if you steal the French crown jewels, you know that you will get the whole. France after you, you know, police, maybe even the Secret Service. And these guys left some stuff behind, a car, a helmet, a hammer. And obviously, there was DNA on it. And when we heard two days ago that DNA indeed was found, we knew that these guys would be arrested because these are not thieves that have done nothing before.

You don't wake up on a Sunday morning thinking, I become a thief. Let's start with a louvre. These guys have a criminal record. they have done this before. Apparently their DNA is in the systems. So it was just a matter of time for them to get caught. And apparently they knew that because one of them was arrested trying to board a plane to Algeria.

Now, you've been involved in, I believe, recovering over 200 works of art. How optimistic, given there's already been to arrest, how optimistic would you be that they will actually retrieve what was stolen here? I'm quite optimistic. You don't steal these objects to sell them as they are because

they are too famous. So their plan was to dismantle them, to get out the diamonds and the other gems and to sell them separately. And that takes time. And normally after such a heist, people lay low for a week because they know the whole world is watching for the thieves and they don't want

to attract attention. So within a week they were caught within six days and I think they didn't have the time to dismantle or sell these diamonds. So I'm pretty sure that they will be recovered. But the latest news is that these guys remain silent. They don't want to talk. Yeah, and right, and they haven't recovered anything yet.

I mean, given how skillfully they carried out this heist in terms of the tactics they used, it was extremely efficient in terms of time, speed, access, and getting out. You know, it may be that they just handed the goods over to third parties very quickly, and that they're already in the process of being dismantled. And if they are, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but if they do dismantle these jewels and cut them basically into tiny gems,

then they'll be gone forever. Yes, they will be gone forever. What they normally do is they line somebody up. They tell somebody, look, in a couple of days, we might come to your door with some diamonds, gems, gold, etc. My hope is that this person that was lined up, once they knocked at his door, he had seen the news.

And he thought, the Louvre, that's just too much, you know. So I think that even if they lined somebody up, nobody wants to touch this. You will end up in jail for 10 years or more. So my hope is that it's too hard to handle. But maybe somebody is that stupid that is already dismantling these pieces, trying to sell them.

But it will be a hard job because, you know, the police is everywhere at this time. Is there any way they could have done this without having somebody on the inside? There is a finger of suspicion of various people who worked at the Louvre. But is it possible, do you think, to have carried this out so surgically with such precision if you didn't have somebody working on the inside with you? Well, it happens a lot. Most museum thefts have somebody on the inside, tipping them off,

maybe a construction worker, maybe a guard, maybe somebody who's cleaning. And they see flaws and they might tell a cousin or somebody from the neighborhood, look, I work there. It's not that difficult to steal from that museum. And, you know, if you pay me some money, I give you the details. It has happened before. And in this case, there are some suspicions. And it wouldn't surprise me.

I guess it's a relief that having got into the Louvre with an intent to steal great art, they didn't try and steal the museum's greatest. work of art, the Mona Lisa. Is that because there's not much you can do with the Mona Lisa, right? I mean, what would they do with it if they did take it? Yeah, the Mona Lisa was stolen in 1911. Even Pablo Picasso was a suspect at the time. Luckily, it came back.

After that, he became one of the most famous paintings in the world. Yeah, but paintings, in the past, they stole paintings. But the last 10 years, we see more that they are targeting gold, silver, diamonds and other gems, because they are easier to see. sell. If you try to sell the Mona Lisa, nobody wants to buy it. But once you dismantle these crowns and these tiaras, you have these small diamonds which are pretty common. So you can get rid of them easily. The bigger gems, you can reshape them. So there is no leads whatsoever to the original theft. And that's why they are targeting now in Europe, at least, almost on a weekly basis,

museums in France, in England, in Germany, in the Netherlands. So it's really become a plague, these kinds of eyes. Yeah, extraordinary. Arthur Bryan, thank you very much indeed, for joining me. Well, let's turn now to my panel. I'm joined by Ashton Bingham and Artism Kulik, the host of the new Fox series, Scammed, Getting Even. Michael Francie, the former mobster and popular podcast host, Larry Lawton, better known as Larry Lawton, Jewel Thief on YouTube.

and Kane Vincent Dyer, the formerly one of the most prolific bank robbers in the United States. So a lot of expertise here in this subject matter. Let me start with you, Michael Francis. Welcome back to Unsens. It was good to have you on. Is art theft? I mean, I don't know the answer to this question,

but is art theft like this, something that the Matthew would ever get involved with? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I know several cases way back when, when art was stolen. No doubt about it, you know, it's a big deal in that life. You know, you have a lot of thieves. But I can tell you, you know, I can relate this to the big Lutonza robbery back in, I think,

1978 with Jimmy Burke and Henry Hill. And I was listening to an author, I believe. And, you know, until today, some of the jewels that were stolen, they were never recovered. I mean, these guys have worked pretty quick. I think they dismantled those jewels very, very quickly. and I would be surprised if they recover everything because there are people around the world that would be willing to buy this

and hold on to it for a while. And, you know, this was definitely an inside job, Pierce. You don't do this without inside information because, you know, the thieves want to know. They want to know the extent of the security. In many cases, they want to know if the items are really there, but in the Louvre, obviously you know they're there. They're on display.

So it's definitely an inside job. No question. They will find that person at some point. The Lufthansa robbery was an inside job. There was a guy there that had a big gambling debt. And the way he paid off his debt was by giving this information to, you know, Jimmy Burke and he arranged the theft at Lufthons. It was the biggest theft in American history at that time.

So it was huge. And guys got away with it. Nobody got caught until I think 40 years later they arrested one guy. He went to trial and he got acquitted. They couldn't even convict him. Extraordinary. Well, Ashton and our welcome to our second. It's got this new Fox series scammed getting even.

I mean, this is one of the ultimate scams, isn't it? To get into the Louvre in France, which hosts some of the great works of art ever, and to carry off a heist like this in just a few minutes. What do you make of it? Today's show is sponsored by Oxford Natural, makers of the optimum day and optimum night all natural supplements. Thousands of Brits and Americans are already taking them

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And here's the best part. Use the code peers and get 70% off. your first order. You're 70% off with the code Pierce. Yeah, this is some real Ocean's 11 stuff here. Thanks, Pierce, for having us on. Thank you. You know, there's a lot of parallels here. I mean, this is obviously a massive take, but, you know, with the kind of scam that we look into, we're not necessarily looking for monsters that are obvious, right? This is a wolf and sheep's clothing type of situation where they were able to get in there in broad daylight impersonating somebody else.

And as some of the other guests have said, likely an inside job and likely some other people helping them, you know, that have extra intel. But yeah, it's unfortunate. But yeah, the recovery, in my opinion, is probably not going to happen. As many have said, they probably dismantled this thing right away and probably sold it for even pennies on the dollar for the hundreds of millions it's worth

is still going to be a life-changing amount of money. So it's unfortunate, but yeah, it's kind of a grand scheme version of the types of scams that we see every day. When we see, we have a lot of similarities exactly what's been happening. When we see people getting scammed here in America or internationally,

bad guys are internationally, but somebody has to move money, right? And everything happening so quick. You're paying your taxes with gift cards. You scratch it. You give the numbers and money is gone. Same stuff happening with Bitcoin nowadays, right? My favor will come to you, pretend to be Ven or PayPal, collect money from elderly people. Money getting deposit to a Bitcoin ATM machine, money is gone.

So it's a lot of similarities. Somebody is from outside and somebody from inside and everybody works. like pretty fast coordinated. Larry Lawton, you do the show, Jewel Thief on YouTube. Is it possible that they've got these jewels

out of the country? I mean, could they have got them out before anyone's even seized a couple of these guys? I mean, they could have Pierce, but I don't think they have. I do think they could catch them all together because if that was me and I robbed enough jewels,

is I would keep something at least for a bargaining tool, especially with museums at a self-insured museum. I'm sure that the France would put out a massive reward for something like that. So I think they might be intact, or at least some of them. They're not from the highest areas and they're not the most organized crew that I've seen, but I think they still could, and I hope they offer that matter. I mean, you're saying they're not the most organized crew. It looked pretty organized to me.

I mean, it was very successful to only be in there about seven minutes. To do it on a Sunday morning, to get away with it and get away with, you know, like I say, extremely valuable jewels. Some of France's greatest jewel artifacts. I mean, it's pretty well organized, isn't it? Well, you know, to be organized, I'm talking about the mistakes that were made. Obviously, I did, you know, X amount of stores, 25, 30 stores, and I never dropped a ring, no less a crown. I would never leave some DNA like that. So that I think it could have been somebody's inside, like Michael said and all these guys said, there's definitely an inside element.

Even if they don't know they are an inside, could be a girlfriend in bed talking about she's a tour guide and this is here. The Apollo room is going to be closed this morning, something like that. So it has to be an inside element. But that doesn't make them great organized criminals. I mean, I'm going to wait and see. They never pull the hoist like this. There are too many bundles, too many mistakes. I'm bringing in Kay and Vincent Dyer.

Welcome to you to Uncensored. Just to remind viewers, the items that were taken were worth 88 million euros. There's $102 million US dollars. They did, as Larry just mentioned, they dropped a diamond and emerald-studied crown during the getaway, but they fled with eight richly gem-encrusted pieces. And they included an emerald and diamond necklace that Napoleon gave to his second wife, Marie Louise, and a diadem set with 212 pearls and nearly 2,000 diamonds that have once belonged to the Empress Eugenie,

the wife of Napoleon 3rd. So these are serious pieces of jewel kit, aren't they? They are. I think what we're going to see here, peers, is when it all comes out in the wash, I think we're going to see several average criminals that took advantage of some serious, serious lapse in security measures here. I agree like everyone else.

Definitely they were told someone in that group was told about the lack of security. And you know, you got 30,000 people going through the Louvre Day. So I don't think it's very hard for someone who has intention to see that there's a huge lack. in security and armed security. When you look at the basic tools that these guys use, I say they're average on the one side of the coin, but they were brilliant on the other because they recognized the fault here of the museums.

And I think you're gonna see this a lot more now that this is happening. Because before it's believed to be impossible virtually, now the average criminal knows he can go do this. And when you're facing laws that are probably going to give you more time for a tweet than for Robin

the Louvre, I think you're going to have a lot of copycats right now. Yeah, I mean, Michael Francis, we can speculate about how skilled or otherwise they were. But in terms of a successful operation, if it turns out that they managed to

fence off this stuff worth $102 million, the seven minutes were getting into the moving out. That's a pretty spectacular hit, isn't it? Well, I believe so. And like I said, I doubt that they're going to recover everything. I mean, I believe things were dismantled pretty quickly. And like you said earlier, even if they don't fence it all out, they're going to fence a good portion of it out, and they're going to make some money. So, you know, as far as sophisticated,

I understand what Larry is saying, but, you know, they had the right tools. They had that cherry picker loaded, and they got up there. They knew exactly what they were doing. is why I say they absolutely had had inside information because security is the main thing. Can we get in and can we get out? And obviously they felt very comfortable with that because they did it. So this was, I actually a very successful operation. Yeah, they left some DNA. I don't know if that was me.

I don't know if I would have left that crown jewels on the ground. I might have got out and picked it up. That's a lot of money they left there. You know, Pierce. But yeah, all at all, it was successful, no doubt. Yeah, not leaving DNA items is 101. But I think that happened probably because you got so much adrenaline going there, you know. And you think that sometimes you probably don't even think that that's going to be possible to pick up.

But here we are. They made a mistake. And this is why I say I think we're going to see some average guys that had a brilliant plan. And also, I think, I'm going to say something. You know, Michael was right. If that was me, they'd be gone in 24 hours. I mean, out of my hands, melted down, everything would be gone. I don't know.

If they didn't have their fence set up already, and it should have been out of the country already. So I'm thinking there's a couple of mistakes done at the end there. And I think it was an opportunity to criminal, like he said. And I think you're going to see more of that. He's right. Ashton and not, in terms of how you get rid of, stuff like this. If you were, you know, really knew what you were doing and you had a plan,

and you've got to assume that maybe they had a plan for, you know, they weren't just taking this stuff. They must have had a plan to get rid of it. What is the quickest and easiest and most efficient way to get rid of the kind of stuff that they took? What would be the first things they do? Well, in my opinion, well, a lot of the things we see with these scams that are, that are complicated is that they're designed to be complicated on purpose with a lot of layers of separation. So when we see like financial fraud or, you know, elder fraud where they're stealing money from, you know, American victims, but they're based out in India, let's say, the money has to pass through a bunch of different channels before it gets to the top guy. So you'll have somebody on the ground in the U.S.

take it from an old person, that person has to give it to another person, then has to go to a crypto wallet, then it's got to go here and here and here. I would imagine it's probably a lot of the same thing. They probably broke it down, as everyone else has said. They probably dispersed it in a million different directions just so it was harder to trace. And it probably had to pass through, you know, pawn it here, give it to this person, this person just to add extra layers of, you know, cushion between, you know, the victim being the Louvre and the main guy who orchestrated all this. And also we've done a few series of documentaries about dark web. And when you go on dark web, oh my God, you can get, you can buy submarine, you can sell submarine. You can steal the jewels, you can

the jewels, right? And now, like exactly everybody said, that there are a lot of people, private investors, that are absolutely wealthy, and they will pay any price under any circumstances to get hands on these type of jewels. So, yeah, there is demand, definitely. Yeah. But that's really interesting. So what you're saying there, Art, is that they might have sold them intact to private dealers who just want to have one of the French crown jewels in their home. Like most of you, I've been through the ringer with health scares affecting loved ones, and I've had the wake-up call about a system which is reactive, not preventative.

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After you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them, so be sure to mention, Pierce Morgan Uncensored, and support our show. Your biology, decoded, your health blueprint, activated. Go to superpower.com. Personally, I think that you don't go and do type of things that, you know, like, movies been written, and we have Ocean 11. So either it's a special hire that somebody said, like, hey, I have a lot of money, I'm going to give you a card, go do it, and I'm going to buy it, and you're going to get paid, just give jewels to me.

So it's not on Sunday you wake up. You're just like, you know what, let me go and do these highs. So I believe there is somebody behind. I don't think they knew the magnitude of what happened was going to. I knew they knew it was big. But as far as getting rid of stuff, when I got rid of stuff, I would have to call my guy and say, listen, I'm coming in with 15, 20 million, and I want, whether it's 3 million, 4 million, and we make a deal, I'll give you $2 million that day, and we'll work out the next. I actually did that exact same thing when I was going to hit the fountain blue in Miami Beach. So, I mean, I think they didn't have that end coordinated.

And I'm more agreeing that it's more opportunists, regular criminals had an opportunity, sort. I mean, how do you rent or how do you get a truck and bring it in from 20 miles from Louvre? That's the town of Louvre in France. Bring it to the thing and not think you're going to get caught some way. I mean, I don't get that. I do, yeah. Kane, final word? I believe, I absolutely believe it was probably someone who had the resources,

hired these guys, showed them from someone who knew the inside, but they weren't seasoned professionals by any means, and they just took advantage of the great opportunity that was there. Well, it's an incredible heist. And talking of incredible things involving money, Michael, I want to come to you first on this. This extraordinary mafia gambling ring that appears to have been busted here. There's a betting scandal that hit American basketball with players and a coach now facing charges. This is a massive cheating conspiracy involving current former players, coaches and members of New York's organized crime families.

34 individuals arrested across 11 states. But there's also a poker cheating scam, which was a sophisticated poker cheating ring, again, allegedly orchestrated by organized crime groups in New York, where victims were drawn to high-stakes poker games after being told they compete against former athletes, well-known athletes like Portland Trailblazers coach Chauncey Billups. But the games were all rigged.

The crime groups allegedly used fake shuffling machines and an x-ray poker table showed players hidden cards. None of them cheat victims out of huge sons. Apparently, the victims lost over $7 million. And those charged include game organizers, suppliers of achieving equipment, participants including amongst them billups

who allegedly took part in these games in 2019. So two parts of this scandal. The mafia, apparently, the mob, linked to this in terms of both of them. What is your take on this, Michael, in terms of what's happened here? Well, a couple of things, Pierce. First of all, this is no surprise to me at all. I was recruited back in 1994.

They recruited me out of prison. The FBI and all the security from all the pro leagues to come and speak to their athletes about the dangers of gambling because they knew I had a big gambling operation on the street. We had a number of bookmakers working for us, and a lot of athletes were gambling with us. So this has been going on forever. You know, I said this. You know, back in the days of prohibition, we had an 11, 12-year run. When I say we, my former associates, had a 12-year run prohibition.

I always say it was the government that made the mafia cousin Oster Strong in this country. By giving us prohibition, we took advantage of it, made hundreds of millions of dollars. I was involved in a gas scam. You know, I had an eight-year run with that. It was great. We made some money. But those things go away. They come and go.

gambling has been the main business of the mob ever since guys came into this country and started up they know it very well they're very sophisticated they know how to use these athletes and get around them a lot of people think you know pairs that we have to go and put the arm on these athletes and extort them they don't real people don't realize how much these guys gamble you know the gambling extension of their competitive spirit they raise the stakes in a competition and guys that are making 20, $25 million a year, they're not going to be happy, you know, gambling $500 or $1,000. They gamble big and they lose big. And then they come to us and we can get them to do our bidding in certain ways.

You know, so to, you know, compromise the outcome of a game, remember, it's all about the point spread. It's not about winning a losing. You can get guys to manipulate the spread very, very easily make a lot of money. As far as the cards, you know, it's a very sophisticated operation now. they're able to see these cards through the table. But there's no doubt, no surprise to me that our guys are all over this. What did surprise me a little bit is that the extent of this, all four of the five families

in New York were involved in this, meaning this is very widespread. This is just the tip of the iceberg. That one guy that has 3,000, I think, you know, recorded conversations and text messages. There was an informant there. This is going to be widespread. Brad, you're going to see a lot more things happening, no doubt. But it's no surprise. This is the business of the mob.

Yeah, it's fascinating. And in England, for example, where there's a massive scandal involving, well, it wasn't just England, involved a number of countries, but involving cricket. And the reason I think it was so easy for the participants who were bought off to cheat was because there are so many intricate different rules and counting systems and so on. It was actually quite easy to do it and make it look like it was a natural part of the game. It's like you say, Michael, it's not necessarily about fixing results, although that did happen. I give an example, there was a cricket bowler, a Pakistani fast bowler,

and he was very young, he was very, very good. He was one of the best pitchers, if you like, in baseball parlance that the cricket world had seen for a long time. And all he did was take money to bowl the ball white. So it was called a wide. If you bowl it too wide where the batter can't hit it, it's a wide. And he just basically guaranteed there would be a few wides in the first few spells of play. That's very easy to fix. I know two soccer players who were captains of their respective teams.

And that was a time when you could bet on the first throwing, right, where the player would throw in the ball if it went out of play. So they just agreed, whichever one of them won the toss for the kickoff would just kick the ball, into out of play. And so it would literally be out of play within a second or two seconds. If you've got the over or under on that, very easy to do. I saw the way it worked. It looked to an average soccer fan, perfectly normal.

But they knew they couldn't lose because they were the two captains. And if you're the two captains and you take the kick, you just kick it straight up. So these things are very actually much easy to do, I think, than sports fans realize. Yeah, Pierce, we'll go to the most obvious, you know, the NBA. You got five players on the court. You know, one team is favored to win by 10. So what happens? If the best player is working with you, he takes an extra foul or two.

He's on the bench for an extra, three, four, five minutes. There's you manipulating the spread right than in there. He has, through a friend, a neighbor, or whatever, he bets on the game, and he wins. He bets on the under now. He wins. Referee, the same thing. You know, let's say Christmas time, the guy wants to make a few extra bucks. Maybe he needs surgery for his child, God forbid.

So what does he do? You know, he can call a foul every time they go down the court, or he doesn't have to call a file, either one. So he can very easily manipulate the point spread on that and either bet the under or the over or whatever way he's calling it. It's not difficult at all in the NBA. And the same thing with the NFL. You know, you get a quarterback.

You know, he puts it in the hands when he throws it of the other team three times. You know, you've got three interceptions. It changes the complex of the game. And it's done more than people might think. Yeah, I can completely see that. Larry, prosecutors say the scheme was backed by members of the Bonano, Gambino, LeCasey and Genevese crime families, as Michael discussed earlier. The groups would allegedly collect a share of the profits in forced payments to extortion and robbery and launder proceeds via cryptocurrency and other channels. This is a very sophisticated thing going on here.

And as Michael said, we may not know the half of it yet. There might be a lot more to come out. If you've got all the big families heavily involved in this way, I suspect this is just a tip of the iceberg. Oh, I think so. But what really surprised me, because I actually muscled one of those games back in the 80s. I was at the door as a young goon, if you want to call it that way, in Queens.

And what happened was we would watch for people trying to cheat us, like, you know, we're bringing in fake dice and stuff of that nature. And it's very, listen, gambling you're going to win, the odds are in your favor. You're the house. To see four families ruin an opportunity like this. I mean, obviously, if you have big players and it's a legit game, that's going to go on and on.

And they're going on right now, obviously. And to blow that and all four families involved, nobody step in. And, you know, I know what our family, they wouldn't have, I never seen it like that. Obviously, Michael would know more than that. But I never seen all four. and then blow it, make a mistake on the whole entire operation. Yeah, Kane, what do you make of this?

I mean, the fact it's all just exploded now, what do you think may have happened here to expose it? I think you have a whole other element of this where you have to look at guys like Chauncey Billups and those guys, those players that were running these games. And you have to think, Pierce, these guys were soliciting and bringing in their friends. How deep were they into it that they would bring in their peers?

And people, they call their friends, and get these guys for millions and tens of millions of dollars. It's just betrayal on a whole other level. I think we all expect or suspected that the NBA and the NFL were rigged to a degree but I think when you think about that kind of betrayal from the players themselves, you know, we expect the mob guys to do what mob guys do. You know, you expect bad guys to do what the bad guys do. But when you find out that some of your heroes are a part of this,

it can be heartbreaking on a whole other level. Well, I hope they're a part of it, but not. No. Right. That's the thing I was going to ask Ashina and R. Could it be that these famous people involved have been either hoodwinked themselves and used as pawns, or could it be that they got in at a very little stage

and then got extorted to make it a lot bigger? I think it's like a gambling version of the Epstein. These guys get so far into it to the mob and things like that, that they become, you know, they get themselves in positions where they have to betray, people they care about and people they love, which is just insane to me. I'll give you an analogy.

What do you think? I used to be a professional basketball player. I'm from little countries called Belarus. I went to Olympic Academy. And when you graduate sports, right, a lot of people will go head coaches or they're becoming police officers, firefighters. I remember a story,

and I don't think even my business partner knows that. We already had Trulogy Media. million subscribers yet and I got approached by ex-basket player who end up being you know in gangs and mafia and they said hey how about we're going to give you can you promote online gambling on your trilogy website right on your trilogy channel and the more people are going to sign up we're going to give you at the end of the month we're going to give you like percentage and this is now see the story what's happening here in in america in nba I'm not surprised because

when you have influence when you have access to names, to celebrities, money talks. All you have to know is bring somebody who knows somebody, and you're going to get paid for it. And, Piers, you asked a great question about whether or not some of these people could have been hoodwinked. I think when they start looking into each individual story and connection, you're going to see that it's very nuanced

with each person. And it happens all the time when we go to confront, let's say a cash mule, like I referenced, this international call center crime. You confront somebody here that was supposed to receive our money if we're scam baiting, so to speak, and when we learn what they know and what they thought was going on

was entirely different than what this person thought was going on. Maybe one person was being extorted in a certain way that was completely separate from the scam that we were baiting to begin with. So I think it's going to reveal a lot of other layers for each individual person and what they thought and what they knew and how guilty they might be.

Yeah, I mean, finally, Michael, I mean, you will know better than most, I guess, from your days with the mob, But was it a familiar tactic to maybe hook in a high-profile person, like I say, at quite a low level, but basically corrupt them on a small scale and then have that leverage over them to carry out a much bigger scenario? Oh, absolutely. You know, and a lot of people think that, you know, we mob guys had to go and put the arm on every player and we had to extort them and threaten them. It didn't happen that way. A lot of times these guys wanted to hang with us. You know, we knew who they were. We hung out in the same clubs.

We did the same things. We got around them. They got around us. We got friendly with them. You know, we didn't have to put the arm on it. I'll give you an example, too. You know, I had a number of bookmakers that work with me. We had a lot of players in the New York area that were gambling with us.

At a bookmaker, he'd come to me and say, hey, you know, sell and sell from the Jets or whatever. You know, he's into us for 50 grand. You know, should I cut him off? I said, well, why would you cut him off? All you're doing is writing an entry on a piece of paper. Let him get into you for two hundred. $250,000, $300,000, $400,000. You know what's going to happen.

And when that happens, bring him to me. And he'll come to me and say, hey, I guess you didn't know I was a partner in this thing. You owe me the money. How are you going to pay me? Oh, well, you know, I don't have it. I said, you know what? Don't worry about it. I said, I like your team.

I like the way you play. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to pay me 2% of that debt in cash every week. Be here every Monday. Don't miss a Monday. And I'll let you work it out. Well, what happens? This player now, because he's a gambler, loves the gamble.

Well, he's going to make up his lawsuit. He goes to a bookmaker in another part of the town. We know the network. We know where he's going. Finally, he's in debt way over his head. I bring him back. I say, okay, here's the deal. You got your money?

No. Here's what you're going to do. You're a halfback? You're carrying the ball? First three times you get the ball, put it on the ground. I'll worry about. Over a period of games, I'll get my money back. You're a quarterback.

First three times you get it, put it in handy of the player. You know, and so on and so forth. And that's how they get up. you know, compromising the outcome of the game. These guys get themselves in trouble. And remember, if a guy's making $25 million a year, he'll gamble 20 to 30% of that away. And now he's looking to make it up somehow.

So he figures with us, he's comfortable. We don't have to really lure them in that hard. They're willing participants many times if they have a gambling issue. You know, and I believe in this investigation, the reason it came out now, it's been going on for a year, because they finally got the big names.

They got Chauncey Billups. They got Rosier. You know, the DOJ, the FBI, you know, they want to make a bust when it really counts. So now they got big names involved. Now it's the NBA. You know, this is a feather in their cap. So this is how they operate. And I think, I believe, because of the fact that there's four families involved in this, which is not normal,

usually all the families don't work, you know, in connection like this. It happens every once in a while. But this is pretty widespread for it to be on that level. And I think we're going to see a lot more of it. No, tip of the iceberg. And one other thing, Pierce, I want to make out. I've been warning the leagues for years. The more access you give these guys to gamble,

the more trouble they're going to get in. Because when they lose the money legitimate on all these legitimate sites, they're going to come to the bookmaker because we give them credit. And now they're going to be into us again. And they're always trying to make up their loss on the next big game that they're going to gamble on or the next card, you know, game they're going to sit down with. You know, it's a cycle that's never going to end.

Now, with college sports, just last week, the NCAA now said that college athletes are allowed to gamble on pro games. They weren't allowed before. They weren't allowed to gamble on anything. Watch what Pandora's box, that's going to open up. Well, the only thing I hope, Michael, it's fascinating your take on this, but my only hope is that my football team, my soccer team, Arsenal, are currently top of the Premier League in England. We haven't won it in 21 years, and I just need you to let me know right now that you have no information. that there is any plan to corrupt the result of the Premier League because that would break my heart. Well, fortunately, they're not here in the United States, right?

I might be able to tip you off, but I promise you, Pierce, if I hear anything, you're going to be the first one to know. I need to know as a matter of urgency, Michael. Guys, that was a great debate. Looking forward to reading now. Well, we're looking. Well, it's a good book. Woke is dead. Available now, guys.

Guys, thank you all very much. That was fascinating. Really appreciate it. Pierce Morgan Unsensit is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Unsensored on Spotify and Apple Podcast. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain.

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