Piers Morgan Uncensored - “ENOUGH of This CARNAGE!” Israel vs United Nations on Gaza ‘Mass Starvation’

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

Israel is rapidly losing the support of its closest allies amid increasingly urgent warnings of a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. A series of “tactical pauses” have allowed some aid into the strip, where many people are malnourished and desperate. But the United Nations is unequivocal, calling it a “man-made, mass starvation.” It also says that more than a thousand Palestinians have now been killed trying to get food or water at aid sites, which were created by an Israeli-American contractor to bypass the UN. Netanyahu says the UN is spreading lies about Israel and making excuses for its own failures. But does anybody believe a word he says? Piers Morgan speaks to UN Under-Secretary General for Humanitarian Aid, Tom Fletcher, and IDF reserve major and international spokesman, Doron Spielman. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: American Financing: Call American Financing today to find out how customers are saving an avg of $800/mo. 866-721-3300 or visit https://www.AmericanFinancing.net/Piers - NMLS 182334, https://nmlsconsumeraccess.org Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can we guarantee that every grain of rice avoids Hamas? No, we can't. But the vast, vast majority of the aid that we get in gets to civilians. It's not Hamas who've been closing the borders, the Israeli government. It's tragic. This is the same guy. Maybe who's even on your show that Scream to the world, 14,000 babies are going to die in 48 hours,

and then apologized and walked it back. There are thousands of tons of United Nations aid that are sitting directly at those crossings as we speak today. If Sinwar had a portrait on his wall, It would be of Tom Fletcher. He knew he could count on the UN as his queen, no matter what Israel does. You quote Simwa and talk about this is what he wanted,

actually what he wanted, is lure Israel into a response that was so wholly disproportionate. He would alienate Israel from the rest of the world. There comes a point when Israel's friend have to stand up and say enough of this, enough of this partnership. Israel is rapidly losing the support of his closest allies

amid increasingly urgent warnings of a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. A series of tactical pauses have allowed some aid into the strip where many people are malnourished and desperate. The United Nations is unequivocal. This is a man-made mass starvation, it says. It also says that more than 1,000 Palestinians have now been killed trying to get food or water at aid sites, which were created by an Israeli-American contractor to bypass the UN.

Israel's response to the growing outcry has been to be taken. to ratchet up criticism of the UN itself. A roster of Israeli commentators have begun taking aim at the UN specifically. Melanie Phillips, Phillips, the Times columnist, wrote that the UN works hand-in-hand in glove with Hamas and hates Israel more than it wants to save Gaza lies. Netanyahu says that the United Nations

is spreading lies about Israel and making excuses for its own failures. There is no starvation in Gaza, no policy of starvation in Gaza, and I assure you that we have a community to achieve our war goals. We'll continue to fight until we achieve the release of our hostages

and the destruction of Hamas's military and governing capabilities. They shall be there no more. No starvation in Gaza, Prime Minister. One word. Bullshit. U.S. President Donald Trump is no longer buying it either. President, Prime Minister Netanyahu said there's no starvation in Gaza. Do you agree with that assessment?

I don't know. I mean, based on television, I would say, Not particularly because those children look very hungry, but we're giving a lot of money and a lot of food. And other nations are now stepping up. I know that this nation is right here. It's a humanitarian crisis. It's an absolute catastrophe. Well, the New York Times reported this weekend that the senior IDF sources have no evidence that Hamas is systematically seizing and selling aid. The UN's aid distribution, it says, was largely effective in providing food to a desperate population.

And how about those war goals? Hamas remains in charge. Intelligence suggests it's recruiting new members faster than they're losing them. Only one living hostage has been released since February. France says it will officially recognize the state of Palestine by September. Britain says it's a matter of when, not if. Netanyahu's Israel is losing the support of its allies. It's losing in the court of public opinion.

And it's losing the war with Hamas. Well, joining me now is UNA chief Tom Fletcher. Mr. Fletcher, thank you very much indeed. for joining me on Uncensored. Can you just tell me what the situation, in your estimation, is on the ground now in Gaza in relation to aid? Well, thanks for having me on, Piers. And it's, well, it's dire.

It's a catastrophe. One in three people in Gaza hasn't eaten for days. You know, we have teams on the ground, our humanitarians who are also starving. And, you know, tens of thousands dead over the last two years. But this desperate situation where 88% of Gaza is now under military. displacement orders. So you've got all of the population who are left, the survivors, herded into 12% of the land. Now, in the last couple of days, the conditions have improved a little bit. We've got a few more trucks in, but we're talking about tens of trucks, and we need to be

getting in 600, 700 trucks a day. We could feed everyone in Gaza. We've got a plan. I set it out to the Security Council, to member states, in New York, to the United Nations. We could get in there and deliver and stop this starvation, which is what President Trump wants, and it's what the world is asking for. The Israeli government wants people to believe that this is entirely on Hamas, that the food is being made readily available,

but Hamas are stealing it, seizing it, and so on. The New York Times report at the weekend, said that there has been, and this is from Israeli military commanders, that they had not found any proof of systematic theft of the aid by Hamas. What is your feeling on the ground there about what is actually happening to this aid? Look, can we guarantee that every grain of rice avoids Hamas?

No, we can't because they have the money and the guns. And so they're able to get the flour on the market, for example, that others simply can't afford. But the vast, vast majority of the aid that we get in gets to civilians. We distribute it through community kitchens, through community groups, so we can see ourselves through the networks that we have, that it's getting to the right people. At the moment, I'm afraid, it's not Hamas who've been closing the borders,

who've been demanding that we fill out enormous amounts of paperwork, who deny us permits and visas when we need to deliver the aid. It's the Israeli government. I've been watching a lot of interviews with British doctors, actually, who've been in Gaza, talking in apocalyptic language about what they're experiencing in the few remaining functional hospitals in Gaza. It's not just a crisis of people. who've been wounded by airstrikes,

it's now a crisis of people literally starving to death, including children. I mean, I've seen images now, which remind me, as I was saying to an earlier guest yesterday, of live aid, you know, 40 years ago, we had live aid to help the starving people of Ethiopia. It is heading that way in Gaza, isn't it? It's desperate.

It's absolutely desperate. And, you know, I want to work out where is the anger? You know, where is the movement that we saw with live aid of people demanding that we get this aid in. I've been to many of those hospitals, and I've seen myself that it's not just a starvation crisis. It's a massive health crisis. I went to Alada, one of those last standing hospitals,

most of it's now been taken out. And, you know, one of the surviving doctors had written on the wall, tell them that we did what we could. And he was killed just a few days later. You know, amazingly brave people. Palestinian doctors, international doctors, trying to save as many lives as they can. But we've got to do better than this as the world.

What is the answer here? I mean, obviously, Donald Trump has now put pressure on Israel by saying that he can see starving or very hungry children, as he put it, directly contradicting what Prime Minister Netanyahu said when he said there is no starvation. One of the big problems I've been going on about for a long time is because Israel's government refuses to allow any international, international media into Gaza, they can dismiss all criticism as being invention or Hamas propaganda.

How do we cut through all this and get the world to understand the reality? And that's a massive challenge for the work that we do, because as well as overseeing the distribution of the aid that's so vital to save as many lives as we can, we're also the people on the ground reporting out, telling you what we see. But of course, as you said in your intro, Every time I do that at the Security Council, if I come in the media and talk to you or others, we get hit very, very hard from the other direction. We're trying to be impartial, neutral, independent and just report what we see because those journalists can't get in, because the investigators, the lawyers, can't get in.

Think of all the other big crises of this century. Maybe none comes close to this. Maybe this is the 21st century atrocity. And yet there aren't international journalists there to report it to you. and local journalists, national journalists, are being killed, as we've been hearing from many major news outlets. They're also being killed as well, like everyone else, in Gaza. So that is a massive challenge.

And of course, no one wants to rely on Hamas sources. Hamas are to be condemned for what they did on October the 7th. They're to be condemned for holding those hostages still. They should release them right now unconditionally. But at the moment, there aren't many other sources because the media can't get in than the media. those hospital workers and those NGO workers inside Gaza? You know, I saw an interview with one particular British doctor

on Good Morning Britain, the show I used to do was a few days ago. And he was saying that he was seeing children coming in on a daily basis, but they would come in with a pattern of wounds. So one day there would be one pattern. Next day, another pattern, another body part. Next day, another body part. In other words, a few children coming in with exactly the same wounds in the same part of their body, including at the end a group of kids who had wounds

to their testicles. And as he was outlining this, he had reached the conclusion that this was target practice involving children by the IDF. Now, that's one British doctor who, to my knowledge, has no reason to lie. He's not part of any propaganda machine. He probably has zero truck with Hamas, like the rest of us. But he is seeing what he's seeing with his his own eyes as an experienced doctor, and he is seeing evidence, it seems to me, of war crimes. Are you seeing and hearing and the same kind of thing? What if you could delay your next two mortgage payments? That's right.

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They visit the hospitals. They often go in after these high casualty attacks. And yes, we are seeing those. It's extraordinary that we can even be here talking about it. We are seeing those patterns of sniper wounds and targeting and targeting of kids and the groins. You know, one hospital I went to, I sat with a grandmother who her son had been taking her to the hospital. and he was hit by a sniper just across the road from the hospital. And she watched him bleed out in front of her over two days.

And every time the medical workers came to treat him, to try to bring him in to save his life, they were also hit by snipers and drones. I mean, I don't know what you call that, but in that is an utterly, utterly grim and heartless situation for those civilians. Well, this same doctor, I think, also said, that he and other doctors have tried to bring in, you know, just basic food for babies, baby food, like formula.

And that has been specifically confiscated when they've come in by the Israelis on the border. In other words, they are deliberately stopping doctors bringing in baby formula in, which could only have one purpose. The one purpose of baby formula is to sustain the lives of babies. And you know, you hear stories like this and you think, what is going on there? So after the weeks and weeks of the blockade, the first thing we tried to get in was actually baby food because we were so worried about these levels of malnutrition. And the threat, there's a new famine report coming out this week.

I haven't seen it yet, but the numbers will be horrific, the numbers who are at risk right now. And we know that of the almost 60,000 civilians who died in the last almost two years inside Gaza, over 18,000 are children. So, look, we just want to get the aid in. We want to do our job. We know how to do this. We can deliver aid. We could get aid to everyone in Gaza who needs it right now so badly,

including all of those starving children. The baby food, the flour, the water, the fuel to get the generators back on, the incubators back on in the hospitals, the shelter, because the vast, vast majority of the population are displaced, have been displaced, multiple, multiple, multiple times. You know, the people I spoke to just said, give us a tent, give us a bit of fuel, and we'll go back and start our lives again. Do you believe Israel's committing war crimes? So these will be questions for the courts. I'm not a lawyer. You know, the ICJ have started their

investigation. The prosecutors are at work. They, like everyone else, will struggle to gather the evidence because they're not allowed in. We've certainly seen serious breaches of international law. And we've seen, as you've been highlighting, statements from senior Israeli ministers talking about annihilation, talking about force displacement, talking about using starvation as a weapon of war. And I imagine that those lawyers are taking careful note of that. The key thing here is that we act. I don't want to be sat here in six months or a year debating whether or not these are war crimes. I want the international community to act now and get that food in. We're ready to go.

We're on the border. During the ceasefire, we were getting in 600, 700 tracks a day. And we need that at a minimum now if we're to stop this crisis. And from your understanding, these Palestinians who've been shot in the lines, the stampedes, as they've become many times, for aid, the IDF constantly tries to obfuscate to avoid any direct blame for what is happening. They say they shoot in the air towards. people, they shoot warning shots, they're launching inquiries, investigations, and so on.

Again, from your firsthand accounts you're getting presumably on the ground, is there much doubt that most of these people are being killed by the IDF? Well, I think we've got used to seeing inquiries launched, and we've also got used to not always seeing inquiries actually come to fruition and report. Certainly, the wounds, the injuries that people are coming into the hospitals with looked like sniper wounds. And over a thousand people have been killed at those militarized hubs.

Desperate, starving people who are risking everything to feed their families and they're being met with bullets. It's one of the great indignities, the great tragedies of this situation, is that so desperate, so miserable, so hungry, and they're willing to run those risks

and then they're being killed in the process of fighting. finding food. It's desperate. There's been a concerted campaign, as you'll be all too aware, to discredit the United Nations, to say that you're part of the whole propaganda machine from the Palestinian side that a lot of the stuff that the United Nations says is simply untrue and so on. What's your response as a senior member of the United Nations? What's your response to this campaign of attack against the integrity of the UN? Well, we call out Hamas. We condemn

Hamas for what they did on October the 7th. We condemn them for holding hostages. We call for those hostages to be released. We call for a ceasefire. But we also have to say what we're seeing on the ground. And it's that that the Israeli authorities and their allies don't like. And that's why we get this attack. It's playing the man or the woman, not the ball. But it's a side show, really. What really matters is

whether or not we can get in there and save the lives of as many survivors as possible. We're used to this. You know, we get a We get abuse almost everywhere. We work. Someone once said that, you know, blessed of the peacemakers, for they will be equally hated by all sides. And sometimes it feels like that. But it's not about us.

It's about getting that aid into those civilians. And just in practical reality, the IDF has announced it will implement daily 10-hour pauses in military operations from 10 in the morning to 8 p.m. local time in three populated areas. A, is that going to make a big difference to you? and B, obviously there's been this rival aid distribution service that's been up and running now for a few weeks. It seems amid total chaos with one of the former contractors, who was a former American servicemen, saying he'd never seen such an appallingly run operation or one where there was such an indiscriminate treatment of civilians.

How do we get to a place where the United Nations? nations can do its job and get its food in. And how does that work? How is that going to happen? So we just need those borders open so we can get those convoys moving. We've got the food, the medicine at the border ready to go. We need a much less onerous process of permits and restrictions. You know, I have visas cancelled of my staff who are meant to be coordinating the aid delivery because they speak out about what they're seeing. But, you know, as you say, we have had this announcement in the last couple of days. And I've got to stay glass half full. here. I've got to try to find the positives and hope that that does result in a difference on the

ground. So I welcome that announcement, that evidence that there will be more secure corridors for our aid and humanitarian pauses. I really hope that we see those. We're starting to see some improvements. Yesterday, we had 12 out of our 16 convoys cleared for movement, which is much better than usual. But we'll judge it by results. We must be judged by results. Can we save as many lives as we can in the conditions that are there, but we'll also judge the Israeli authorities too by how much support they give us on that. You know, I think it's important to say

that there are these extremist hardline voices in the Israeli cabinet, but there are also many people, including in the Israeli military, who do want this aid to get through. And, you know, this morning I was talking to survivors in Neroz, the kibbutz that was hit one of the many on October the 7th,

where one in four people were killed or taken hostage. And they were telling me they want the aid. to get through. So there's a lively debate inside Israel. People are saying, let us do our job, let us in. I mean, as for these other mechanisms, and you mentioned the Gaza humanitarian facility, we don't want anyone to fail. Anyone who can get food through, we welcome that. But we want them to do that, and we wish they would do that in a principled, neutral humanitarian way, and not in a way that dehumanises civilians that forces them to move to be displaced or puts them at risk. And over a thousand civilians have been killed in those queues waiting for food.

We know how to do this. You know, I run operations all over the world. Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Haiti, DRC. I've just come back from Gomah and the DRC. We know how to do this at scale. We just need people to let us work. The ups and downs of the economy can be stressful. worrying. One of the smartest ways to protect your savings is with diversification, and you can start

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Text the word peers as P-I-E-R-S to 9-8-9-8. Finally, Tom Fletcher, what is your direct message to Prime Minister Net in Yahoo, who said overnight, there is no sense? starvation in Gaza? Well, if you'll let me have a message for Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Trump, I mean, for Prime Minister Netanyahu, there is starvation. He'll be reading the reports of that from his officials. And we can help stop that.

That starvation is doing immense damage to Israel's reputation. The world is demanding that it ends, and we can help solve that problem. We can stop that starvation. We know how to do this. Just let us do our work. And to President Trump, who's been very clear about those levels of starvation, including during his visit to the UK over the last couple of days, he wants that starvation to end. He wants the food to get through. We can deliver that for him.

And ultimately, you know, President Trump is someone who talks a lot about peace. And I believe, believes instinctively in peace. There are a lot of Nobel prizes out there. There is no tougher job than the Middle East peace process, than making peace between Israel and the region. and let's not just announce the results of peace, let's actually work for them as well. And if we do that, and we can help that process, we can support it, then he'll be a great, great peacemaker,

and he'll do what recent presidents have failed to do. I hope he succeeds. Yeah, so do I. Tom Fletcher, thank you very much indeed. Thank you, Piers. Well, joining me now as Major Doran Spielman. He's the former spokesman for the IDF, an author of When the Stones speak.

Major Spillman, thank you very much indeed for coming back to Unsensit. You were just listening to Tom Fletcher there, the United Nations Aid Chief. What is your response? You know, I think it's tragic, Pierce, watching your show, saying you softball questions to Tom, who's a known, virulent anti-Israel player. This is the same guy. Maybe it was even on your show that Scream to the World, 14,000 babies are going to die in 48 hours,

and then apologized and walked it back because of a lack of proof. This is the same guy that was UK ambassadors, you know, to Lebanon from 2011 to 2015. oversaw his Bulla's growth in Lebanon as a terror organization, and then said he thought they should be a part of the government, and they shouldn't be marginalized. This is a person who's overseen this humanitarian agency and acts like all of a sudden they can't bring aid to people. You and I both seen the videos.

There are thousands of tons of United Nations aid that are sitting directly at those crossings as we speak today. There are dozens of videos out there, and they are rotting for one reason. They refuse to accept that aid, as long as Israel works through the Gaza Humanitarian Fund. They have refused. If they really care, if he cares about the tragic starvation in Gaza,

he should be looking towards the air, the water, Israel, the United States, the UN. But he comes on here and he says, oh, we want everyone to work. They flat out publicly refused. The United Nations publicly refused last week to work with the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, meaning they would rather have Gaza people die of horrible starvation. then give up their political angles of trying to marginalize Israel and allow the food to actually reach those people. So that is the situation with Tom Fletcher.

I think if Sinwar had a portrait on his wall, it would be if Tom Fletcher. He's doing Sinwar's government, and Sinwar is laughing in the grave because this is Pierce, his fantasy come true. He predicted the show. He predicted the interview of you softballing Tom and now asking me difficult questions

because he knew. He knew one thing. He knew he could count on the UN as his queen, no matter what Israel does. Israel moves the gossip population out of the way. You hear Tom Fletcher says 88% of all people have been displaced. They weren't displaced. They were moved by Israel at cost to Israeli soldiers' lives out of the way of a war zone because we want to keep them safe. He knew it could count on the UN because Tom Fletcher and his buddies before October 7th, for the eight years before October 7th, passed 154 condemnations in the General Assembly against Israel, against all other

countries combined, they passed 70. So Israel's apparently worse than Rwanda, than what happened in Cambodia, than Russians invasion of Ukraine. They were the worst on earth. Otherwise, perhaps they're simply anti-Israel. So you'll forgive me and the Israeli people. If we are slightly have a little bit of scrutiny against Tom, the United Nations, and we can show that the aid is on the border. And if they would bring it to the people, instead of politically engaging, we could help solve some of the hunger, the desperate hunger that is taking place in Gaza? I don't think actually that the Israeli government cares about the plight of Gazans at all. The reality is, so far, about 70% of Gaza has been completely destroyed.

The remaining population have been herded around now into ever smaller pockets of what is remaining there. You've got people like Smodrich, hard right members of the government, openly talking now about cleansing Gaza of Palestinians, which would be ethnic cleansing. He wants to kick them all out of the country. Then I hear Israeli say, well, he doesn't speak for the government. He's the bloody finance minister. Of course he does. And so you've got people like this saying,

yeah, we're going to cleanse the Gaza of all Palestinians. And then I get people on, like yourself, and you come on and you say, no, that's not the plan. No, no, we just want to help the Gaza people. And the last thing we want to do is killing us and people and so on. And yet somehow, you've managed to kill over 60,000 Palestinians having lost 1,200 on October the 7th, a horrendous terror attack,

which I've condemned from the moment it happened. You've now killed 60,000-plus Palestinians. You've got 20,000 children who've been killed. You've now got starving and demaciated children, images being beamed to the world on an hourly basis, many of whom are now beginning to die, literally, of hunger. And this is started by a three-month blockade, deliberate policy,

of blockade, starving the innocent gardens of food and water and aid and other things. And you put it all together, and you now have almost the entire world looking at Israel saying, what on earth are you doing? When are you going to stop this? And yet still, still, and I say this with respect to you, still people like you will come on, Major Spilman, and you'll say there's nothing to see here. There's nothing that could be reported because you won't allow media to go and investigate this independently. Nothing to see here. We are doing everything by the book with the most moral army in the world. And actually anyone like the United Nations, who I thought spoke very eloquently and very straightforwardly about the problem and made it clear he doesn't want to be

remotely partisan here. But when I couple what he said with what British doctors are talking about in the few remaining hospitals, where they're talking about children being used as target practice. Now, I would love to see a proper investigation into that. Because that was said on British national television, that children were coming in with patterns of clusters of sniper fire, as if they've been used as target practice. So, yeah, you can come here and you can attack the United Nations. You can say they're the villains.

You can blame Hamas for everything. But my final point to you, Major Spielman, about your big lengthy diatribe there, about me, about United Nations and everything else, is you quote Simwa and talk about this is what he wanted. actually what he wanted when he did what he did on October the 7th, is lure Israel into a response that was so wholly disproportionate he would alienate Israel from the rest of the world. And that is what's happening.

And that's what you don't see is happening because you are so convinced of your moral right here that you do not see the wood for the trees. And I say that as somebody who supported Israel for many months, as you know, to my personal cost, I was attacked virulently from the other side. But there comes a point when Israel's friends, those who've always supported Israel,

have to stand up and say enough of this. Enough of this carnage. It is getting you nowhere. You're not dismantling Hamas. You're not getting hostages freed. You've got starving kids now, dying on a daily basis. Enough.

So that's my response to you. Pierce, I hear one lack of a word that comes out of your mouth with this entire statement. And I can agree with you that there's hunger in Gaza, which is Hamas. You throw out the word sin war. You blame Israeli opinion on Smotrish. I have news for you.

The Israeli people are not defined by Smotritch and the Israeli people do not all want to raise the white flag and go home. This is a consistent theme where Smotruch wants to cleanse Gaza and every Israeli just wants to fold the white flag. No, there's another alternative, which is I'm not willing to go to sleep.

And neither would you pierce with Hamas remaining in Gaza. And you are correct. Sinwar planned this. His queen, his bet was the international media and the United Nations. He knew Israel will move the population. They'll be blamed for displacement. Israel will try to feed the population. And when Hamas steals the food, Israel will be blamed for the food. He predicted every single thing that's happening. Israel could have ended this conflict by bombing this from the sky. We did not need to drop telegrams to everybody there. We didn't need to move the population. We lost four soldiers today. They never had to die. They didn't need to be. go into a tank, we could have taken care of everything from the air. The only reason we did not, and we know where our hostages are. There's plenty of other areas where Hamas is hiding is because we are trying in the most difficult situation, a situation that no one has ever fought in, to kill Hamas that is planned in advance to hide behind their own people knowing they don't care about

those lives, knowing that when they die, I will go on Pierce Morgan. Pierce Morgan will say Israel doesn't have a chance. You can't defeat Hamas. They've recruited five times of the people. these are not true. Hamas is on its last legs. Its leadership has been completely destroyed. Israel, as you said, have taken over 77% of the territory and moved the civilian population, which is remarkable to an area that's not perfect,

but is mostly out of the way of the fighting. And you have humanitarian aid that Hamas steals from trucks, and when Israel tries to fix the situation, all of a sudden the UN says, no, we're willing to go in there, we're willing to work, but it's so disorganized. Where the hell were you for 21 months when Hamas stole the trucks? There's no proof, by the way.

That report that USA took out is a complete farce. It is based on what they said, they cannot verify the recipients of the aid, meaning the aid is going to people, and they cannot verify who they are. So if those people are Hamas, they can't verify it. The 60,000 people that you say that have been killed, that you both, we both know that doesn't differentiate between combatants and civilians. Here's the exact same discussion again and again, and once again, everything negative. about Israel, where the only democracy in this Israel, we're fighting for our lives against an enemy two miles away, and all you can do is bring Tom Fletcher, talk about everything that Israel is doing. Now you supported Israel for years, but when the going is getting tough, you'll look back in 20 years

when the smoke clears, and you will see that you turn, unfortunately, you misunderstand Israel today, you misunderstand the will of our people, and you would never leave your own family on the border with Hamas on the other side. That is the bottom line. Actually, I'll tell you what I think I'll wake up to in 20 years' time, the way things are going, if no one stops Netanyahu and his far-right government, is we're going to see Palestinians have been removed from Gaza completely. We will see that there has been an ethnic cleansing that happened as the world stood by and watched. And the reason I believe that now is because I'm listening to people like Smodrich, who is one of the most senior members of that government and cannot be as readily dismissed as so much. like to on the pro-Israeli side. And you're also seeing what is happening on the ground, whereas you say 77% of territory has now been destroyed. I mean, literally obliterated. And this is

why Israel doesn't want to allow journalists in to see the sheer scale of what has happened, because then it would be apparent to the world what has actually gone on here. And there's only one reason why government, like Israel, in this kind of situation, doesn't want journalists on the ground operating independently because they know they're doing stuff they don't want the world to see. Because when it suits Israel, when they wanted to take the world's media

to see some food trucks the other day, oh, no problem, in you come. When after October the 7th, they wanted the world to see the horrors of the kibbutz, quite rightly, no problem, in you come. But when it comes to journalists every single day, people I know, great, brave war correspondents, and CNN, BBC, Reuters and others,

when they make all their applications, to be allowed to do their job in Gaza, no, no, no, no. One or two friendly people who are very pro-IDF are allowed to go in for a few hours of the IDF and write very positive things about what they see. But you are not allowing, well, not you, but the Israeli government is not allowing independent journalists to do their jobs because they don't want the world

to know what they're doing. And that's what's going to happen in 20 years' time. It will turn out, I believe, and I hate, the fact that this is almost certainly what's going to happen. There will have been an ethnic cleansing of the Gazans. They will no longer, if this carries on, be in Gaza. And there will be widespread evidence of war crimes, including, how did 20,000 children die? Is it true that children were being used as target practice by the IDF? As a British doctor said on British national television three days ago, literally used for target practice. Now, I'm sure if we asked the IDF about,

that. They'll say, we're launching an investigation. We're launching an inquiry. Actually, this doctor sounds like he's pro Hamas. Actually, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The same thing that is said every time, because journalists aren't allowed in to verify either way. And when you block the journalists, you block the truth. You know, Pierce, you're talking about the Gaza population and ethnic cleansing. Do you think that if the Gaza wants to leave Gaza and go to, I don't know, London or Brooklyn, should they be allowed to? I think Gazans should be allowed to stay in Gaza, don't you? Okay. We both think Gazans should be able to stay in Gaza.

But if they want to leave the wars, you're not answering my question, they want to go to England. They want to go to Brooklyn. Should they be allowed or should they be forced to stay in Gaza? So are you saying that Gazans right now can get on a plane to England, right? I'm saying that if England, if you believe that they have the right peers to make a decision about their future, then, oh, all the countries around the world who care about these people, care about the starvation,

should open their doors and we should leave it up to the Ghazan people. No one's left, no one is forced to leave Gaza. If you go to the border and say, I ask, just like if you decide to go to France, tomorrow I'm going on a trip, I would like to relocate my family. Should they be allowed to relocate? Of course they should. They should be allowed the exact same human rights as you or me. Now, do you agree that Gazans should be entitled to the same human rights as you?

I do. Unfortunately, at this point in time, they're in the line of fire. But I do believe that if they want to leave, like President Trump... But what about before October the 7th? What about before October the 7th? Hang on, hang on. Before October the 7th, did Palestinians have the same human rights as Israelis? They live in their own area. The reason that they... Of course they did. They voted in their own leadership, which was Hamas, meaning the Germans voted in Hitler. And now you don't like these comparisons. They voted in Hitler. Hitler took control. He eliminated their rights.

He eliminated many of them. He eliminated homosexuals and Jews and people with physical handicaps and the Roma's. Just like that, the Ghazan people had free and open elections. Unfortunately, and we don't like to talk about the elephant in the room, they voted overwhelmingly in 2007

for Hamas, and they condemned their children. Meaning, what were they thinking Hamas was doing all these years? When Hamas were digging tunnels, not underneath their homes. I've been there, into their homes, into their children's bedrooms. You've seen the pictures. When they indoctrinated their children and brought them into schools and taught them hatred of England, of the West of Israel, what did these parents think that Hamas was actually doing? They knew the day would come that they voted in Hamas and they would

get what Hamas believes, which is the Muslim Brotherhood ideology of the destruction of Israel, fight to the end, Israel will respond, they'll be travesty, I'll go on peace, Pierce Morgan, he'll defend them, and hopefully because of the travesty of this population, they'll get a state, which is exactly what France is proposing to do,

which simply emboldens this type of terror around the world. Well, I don't agree, because I think that Palestine should be a state. I believe in a two-state solution. I don't think Benjamin Netanyahu has ever wanted that, and you talk about who is to blame for the rise of Hamas, well, look no further than the Prime Minister of Israel. who was personally very instrumental in funneling billions of dollars to Hamas

because he wanted to have a rule of dividing rule between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. I agree with you there. There will be lots of blame. I agree with you there. So we can agree on that. Anything that was done to keep Hamas in power was a horrific mistake. We released Gilad Chalit. We released, when they released Galat Chalit, we released 1,300 killers,

one of which was Yahia Sima. It was a horrible mistake. giving the money to Hamas, in retrospect, was a horrific mistake. Can you and I both agree that Hamas being in power in Gaza is absolutely intolerable? 100%. And I would also go further and say, I have no problem with you comparing Hamas to the Nazis. I think they have a very similar ideology, particularly towards Jewish people. They claim, you know, I've heard people on the Palestinian side say there's no religious element to this or ethnic element to it. It's simply that they have a problem with the Israeli occupation.

But that's simply not true. The original Hamas Charter was wedded to killing Jews. They never made any secret about this. So I've got no problem with the analogy of a despicable terror organization to the Nazis. I think they do represent an existential threat. The question becomes for Israel, as the only democracy in the Middle East, does it want to descend to the same levels of inhumane depravity as the people is trying to eliminate? And I would argue, as somebody who considers myself to be a friend of Israel and Israelis, no, you shouldn't.

You should not be in a position now where you are starving children to death. That is simply not what you should do in response to a terror group who does exactly that to its people. You should be better than Hamas. You should be more humane than Hamas. You should show the world that Israel is a better, more humane country than a Hamas-run, Gaza Strip for the Palestinians. But at the moment, you're not. You're sending the world the opposite message.

And so friends like me and allies, like France and the UK and others, even Donald Trump today, directly contradicting Netanyahu. He said, there's no starvation. He said, well, the children look pretty hungry to me. They look pretty hungry to all of us. So, you know, you can say that black is white and white is black and everything else to the cows come home. We all know what we're seeing with their own eyes.

and we're seeing starving people, and we're seeing starving people getting shot dead. And I just simply say to you, as somebody, given we both care about the security of Israel and the security of Israeli people, why do you think that any of this possibly makes it more secure

to be an Israeli or to be a Jew around the world? Why does making Israel despised around the world make it a safer place, the world, for Israelis or Jews. Explain to me. Pierce, Israel, as we both agreed, cannot leave Hamas in power. When you compare Israel to Hamas and talk about the degeneration, the potential degeneration, in a word,

this is always a very real fear, that you don't want to become like your enemies, which is exactly what Israel is not. There, again, I feel like we're talking about the facts, but when we boil it down, you're ignoring it. What other population is responsible providing the food to the enemy civilian population? because the enemy steals the food from its own population.

What other population, what other army moves people out of the way, putting our soldiers at risk so that we won't kill them? What other population sends in ground troops? For us, 800 ground troops that have been killed is 30,000 soldiers in the United States. Why are they killed? Because we're going in on the ground and flushing them out and not just bombing them from the air like Britain did and justifiably during World War II.

when they bonds. Why are we doing all this because we are fundamentally different? And if you do not understand it, we are not sending this message to the world. Pierce, you are sending this message to the world. You say that you appreciate Israel, but by quoting all these things, Kazan's our target practice, not verified. Israel's not allowing the UN, not verified. There's stuff sitting on the border is still saying, come on and take it. All of these allegations, U.S. AIDS report is based on people that they say they cannot collect testimony from. You are sending this message to the world. We have one job. It is to kill Hamas and try to do so in the most moral way possible. If the world does not understand that, and if the world is going to

attack Jews because of it, that is the world's problem. Israel has suffered before. Our people have suffered before. There's no excuse for people to show anti-Semitism and attack our people, not because we're carrying out a war, not because they disagree with anything. The reason that this is right now, all the international pieces, the United Nations and OSHA, passing 154 condemnations against Israel and 70 against the rest of the world, does that not cite you as being a little bit biased? Somebody who likes Israel, 154 UN resolutions passed by Tom Fletcher's bosses, and 70 against the rest of the world, including North Korea,

and Russia and China, does that add up for you as being fair and just? Well, what bothers me is not playing what a battery with other countries. You can talk about that and you can argue with a toss about all countries doing awful things. Again, what bothers me is that it doesn't seem to me the penny is dropping fast enough for people who are supportive of Israel, that what is going on now is making Israel a global pariah. That is just a fact. It's not me saying it or spinning it or trying to conjure some kind of media narrative that isn't the reality. The world is turning against Israel in a very fast and profound manner from which it may never recover if it's not careful.

And for what? You're not getting the hostages released. No hostage released alive since February. You haven't finished off Hamas, clearly, or you wouldn't still be doing this. You know, children are starving to death. thousands of civilians have been killed. And many of, I mean, okay, let's say you've killed 60,000 of which a third are combatants. Who knows? Say a third of the Hamas terrorist. That's 40,000 civilians of which half a children, in a population of two million with half a children.

None of this strikes anybody now as proportionate at all. It just looks shockingly disproportionate, and it looks like nobody in Israel in the government cares. Pierce, you said something that I absolutely agree with. The penny has not dropped. The penny has not dropped around the world about what Israel's facing. And I'll tell you simply why, it hasn't reached their doorstep. No one knows it better than you in your country, because from 1939 to 1941, you alone fought the Nazis. Why? It wasn't a world war. It was the European war. When did it become a world war? When it reached the doorstep of the United States of Pearl Harbor, all of a sudden, they really felt what it is to face Nazi Germany. Israel has been fighting this war alone. It's only our troops. It's only our children. It's only our intelligence branches. It's only our people trying to move the Ghazan people out of the way. It's only our people that are fighting this war. When will the penny drop? And I hope it doesn't drop too late. When countries around the world wake up and they understand the radicalism and the cynicism that we're facing, they may understand that Hamas is brutal. But I don't think that they understand that Hamas is more brutal. And these aren't just words to their own people. What does that mean? Yes, they will. kill Israelis, they'll butcher them, they'll chop heads off, they'll do all these types of things. They willingly plan to have their own people annihilated to gain political advantage. It is something the world does not seem to understand. And the penny may drop, Pierce, only when it reaches their doorstep. And I have news, as you know, Hamas right now is appealing

to the United Kingdom government to take them off the terror watch list. I would keep my children inside if I live in England, if that happens. if Hamas is off the terror watch list and they're able to operate freely in England, this will may only drop in five years or 10 years or 20 years, and when the penny drops, they'll look back at Israel and say, wow, we understand why Israel did what it did.

But we're not going to stop fighting today because they don't understand. We're not going to leave Hamas on their border because the world does not understand Pierce. I can tell you for an absolute certainty, there is no chance of Hamas being removed from the terror watch list. And I would simply say in conclusion, Major Spill, and I always appreciate you coming up.

Let me just say that for the record, because a lot of people don't want her anymore, and you do, and you articulate the other side, and I appreciate it. But I look at the way that Israel dismantled Hezbollah, a brilliant, very precise, surgical, superbly executed operation from a military perspective. I look at the way you went after the Iranian nuclear program to the scientists that you took out and the military commanders you took out, the sites you took out, and so on. And I look at two, again, another superb military operation. And then I look at what's happened in Gaza. No precision, no surgical operation, nothing, nothing by any comparison to what happened in Iran or with Hezbollah, and instead just utter indiscriminate carnage. And that is the tragedy for Israel, is I think that the rage the nation felt perfectly understandably

after October the 7th, when you had by the tragedy. the next day, the support of most of the world, not all, because he brought out a lot of hateful anti-Semitism, but most of the world were supporting Israel. But that supports pretty well eroded now. And now you've got the world going, what is Israel doing? Why is it behaving like a mass? And that's a terrible place for Israel to have found itself. But look, I appreciate you coming on, and I just hope and pray that this war is brought to an end before Israel causes itself even more self-harm, which ultimately I am convinced was the whole intention

of Sinwa and the evil Hamas terror leaders. Unfortunately, I think that you have fallen in to their trap and it's been a tragedy to watch. But we will see. Maybe you'll be right, but I fear you'll be proven wrong and I fear even more that I will be proven right.

There will be an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and I don't think that Israel will really recover from it in my lifetime, but we'll see. Major Spielman, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Peter's Morgan Unscensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing.

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