Piers Morgan Uncensored - 'Feminist Nonsense!' Netflix 'Adolescence' Sparks Toxic Masculinity Debate | Feat Andrew Wilson

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Streaming giant Netflix seems to have another gritty hit on their hands, and this one’s darker than ever. 'Adolescence' follows the story of a young boy accused of stabbing a female schoolmate, and draws heavily on the continuing controversy of the online ‘manosphere’. The show paints a dark and violent picture of modern masculinity, seemingly pointing the finger of accusation at online influencers like Andrew Tate. So should youths be banned from using smartphones? Are caring and conscious parents the answer? Or is a return to firm traditional Christian gender roles the only way forward? To debate this, Piers Morgan speaks to host of ‘The Crucible’ Andrew Wilson, comedian and radio host James Barr, host of ‘Tomi Lahren is Fearless’ on Outkick Tomi Lahren and host of ‘The Determined Society’ Shawn French. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Adolescence on Netflix is currently the biggest show in the world. The drama about a 13-year-old misogynist who kills a teenage girl has been seen by 25 million people so far and was raised by the British Prime Minister in Parliament. With our children, I've got a 16-year-old boy and a 14-year-old girl, and it's a very, very good documentary to watch or drama.

This violence carried out by young men influenced by what they see online It's a real problem. It's abhorrent, and we have to tackle it. It's actually a fictional story, Prime Minister, not a documentary, but it's a Prime Minister referenced. It tells the story of young boys who are radicalised by content online. There are references to the Manosphere, the Matrix, Incells and Red Pills. Andrew Tate gets a name check. And that part of the show has sparked an outpouring of commentary

about the abject horrors of the internet and the crisis of male role models. Bang by a girl, you saucy. You're not getting it. Woman, okay. Dad, you're not reading what they're doing. It's a call to action about a manor's fear. 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men. You must trick them because you'll never get them in a normal way.

Well, the Guardian summed up the general tone of the reporting with a headline that said from the police to the Prime Minister how adolescents is making Britain face up to toxic masculinity. But is it, really? Can it not just be a successful drama that referees, popular culture, as so many do. Critics of the show say it's another version of the same man-bashing narrative

that gave rise to the so-called manosphere in the first place. Well, here to debate all this is the host of the crucible, Andrew Wilson, the radio host, James Barr. The host of Tommy Leran is fearless on outkick, Tommy Lerum, and the host of the Determined Society, Sean Fringe. Welcome to all of you. Andrew Wilson, let me start with you,

because I've got three sons, 31, 27, 24. I think I brought them up to respect women, to not behave in a misogynist way and to behave in a pretty decent way generally. But I'm also aware that they've grown up in an era when the likes of Andrew Tate and others have become increasingly dominant in the way that a lot of impressionable young men

start to think and view women. And for all that Andrew Tate can say that it's positive about getting fit and being successful and confident and so on, there's indisputably a hardcore streak of misogyny that runs through his veins, which I think has been quite damaging to young men. So I'm not all in either way here, but I can certainly see the arguments.

Where do you sit? Yeah, well, I mean, I think that this, so I watched the show, and it just goes through a typical feminine view, right? So all of these things are always through the prism of the feminine. So young boys, they don't do well at school. They don't do well in school because it's all programmed for the feminine. Stay still. Fold your hands, right? Be quiet. Boys are rambunctious. They like to beat each other up. They like to be mischievous. They like to break things.

They like to do that kind of stuff. There's no outlet for them to do that stuff. Their teachers are all women, right? There's basically all masculinity is now considered toxic. Basically all of it. The same women who are getting their double shot of espresso on the way over to the school they're about to teach at, they're 24 years old. Sometimes they're banging their own students, right, hilariously enough. And then these people go out to Parliament, the same women will go to Parliament. They vote to send men off to war to stab each other in the face with bayonets. And you're concerned about toxic masculinity.

It cracks me up. It's like the brutal savagery of men is a necessary precondition for society to exist. And we just kind of pretend like it's not. and this show should actually be an indictment on the feminine rather than the masculine because basically masculinity is just punished everywhere all the time nonstop. It's no wonder guys like Andrew Tate

get so famous in these spaces. I mean, what's the alternative? The alternative is everything must be feminine, tone policing, nonsense like this. It's ridiculous. All right, James Barr, you were laughing, but I don't think you'd enjoy what you're hearing. No, I mean, that's, I don't think you've seen the show,

Episode two is shot entirely in a school. I didn't see one of the female teachers drinking a double shot of espresso at all. None of the teachers were flirting with students. There were male teachers as well. I don't think you're describing the show here. I think you're describing your own insecurities or agenda. Yeah, so this doesn't contend with the argument.

Do you understand that I'm making an argument in the indictment of society itself based around my ideas that I'm seeing from this show? That's what I'm actually doing. So if you could contend with the fact, that male savagery is necessary for the security of a nation and that women will indeed vote in the future in parliaments to send men off to war to stab each other in the face at 18 years old with bayonets perhaps you can contend with that before we start uh you know getting into well tell

policing is actually good and uh toxic masculinity is actually bad it's like i think there needs to be a little bit more toxic masculinity or what you consider to be toxic masculinity well great good for nothing i'm glad you think nothing i mean i just don't need to argue with that because you just stun locked you just stun locked you got nothing you're you're making up an agenda that i've not said anything i haven't literally said nothing about tox and naturally rendered silent i you're nowhere to i tell you why you can't argue with a completely illogical argument that had like i've not made it it's a logical argument you may not agree with it i've not made any of the comments that you are firing at me none of those comments are things i've said or believe in

all right i want to bring tommy in because tommy you've got a very interesting perspective I think. You've talked about something different. You call it the purification of men, which is a great phrase. I'd love you to just explain what you mean by that. But also, you're not a fan of Andrew Tate or the influence he has. So that makes you, I think, an interesting commentator in this area. So just explain, first of all, the pusification of men. All right, Pierce, well, I think, and I can't see you all. So forgive me if I'm incorrect here. But I think I'm the only female

on this panel, so I'm really anxious to weigh in. Okay. So I think So I think over the last probably 10 years, there has been what I call the pusification of men. It was everything should be about your emotions and your feelings and men were emasculated. And this whole concept of toxic masculinity warped the minds of a lot of young men. And they felt masculine. They wanted to be masculine. But society was telling they should be softer, that it was being toxicly masculine if you wanted to play sports and chop wood and go to war. And so men were so amasculated and so be.

down that then there was this revolution of what was actually toxic masculinity, the Tate brothers and others, which I feel as a female, that that doesn't represent true masculinity. That, to me, represents douchebaggery. And as a woman, I want a strong man who is a protector and a provider that will go to war if need be that will protect me, protect my family, make money. I see that as being actually masculine. That's like the man that I grew up with my dad. But what we're seeing now is these young men who look at Andrew Tade and the Tate brothers, and they see somebody who's just quite frankly a douchebag and disrespects women. And because they've been so emasculated, they're like, oh, great, that's a manly man.

But that's not right either. So at some point, I think we'll go back to maybe meeting in the middle here. You can be a man who has feelings and emotions, but you can also go to war and protect and defend your family. I'm hoping we can get back there. But the two extremes right now, they're confusing men. and quite frankly, they're leaving women with few choices. And that's the real tragedy here.

You see, I completely agree with you. But, Andrew, you were shaking your head quite vigorously. Why? Yeah, well, I mean, it's just more feminine or feminist nonsense, ultimately. And the covert feminism in society is big, especially on the conservative side. So here's what happens, right? Women need to have feminine virtues for men to be pursuing masculine virtues, for you to say things like, well, men, what I want is for women.

What I want is for men to protect me and I want men to make money. Well, that's great. What that ends up doing is it gives you a set of privilege in society. What do men get? What do men get for doing that for you? What are we getting from women for doing that? Are we getting chased virgins on our wedding night? No, we're not getting chased virgins on our wedding night.

Are we getting women of great virtue? No, we're not getting women of great virtue. The idea of courtly love is supposed to be done for women of great virtue. Where are they? Well, they're nowhere. And so in modernity and society, when conservative influencer, female conservative influencers say this,

it's actually a form of covert feminism. They're saying, I want privilege in society, right? But what is it? Women are giving to men to get it? What? What are they giving them? Tell me. Well, can I please chime in here?

Yes, you can. And then James can. I'm not comfortable. No, I would love to. I love this whole thing of like, if you're a female conservative and you don't believe, that men should be douchebags, that all of sudden you're a covert feminist.

Call me a feminist. I really don't give one crap one way or another, but I can tell you this. A lot of these men, these podcast hosts on the right that like to think of themselves of these big masculine men and what am I getting out of it. I can tell you this. There's that feminism. I believe I'm a woman of virtue. Yeah, there's the feminism.

Oh, and then you're interrupting me too. Didn't take long, did it? Didn't take long, did it? Okay. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you want to speak over a man? I don't care if you call me.

I don't really care if you call me a feminist. Strong independent woman? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're actually interrupting me. I didn't interrupt you when you were spewing your bullshit. So now it's my turn. Okay.

So like I said before. So I believe I'm a, there we go again. Pierce, I'm a woman of virtue. I happen to be independently successful. I have a husband who's not only a former professional athlete, but is currently a professional baseball coach. So is he not a masculine man? I mean, I'm confused here.

What's your concept of a masculine man? Mine is a man who respects me. Yeah, that misses the point, though. Like, you're still not contending with the argument that I'm making. I'm saying inside of society, right this second, right? Masculinity is not only punished, but also women on the right, covert feminists on the right, are constantly and consistently talking about how they need to have privilege in society.

I want men. Their version of masculinity is men who take care of us, men who protect us, men who do all of this. Those are all duties that men have towards women. Great. What are the duties that women have towards men? What are the duties that women have towards anything? What do men get out of this arrangement?

What are we getting out of this arrangement? Can you tell me? I mean, you, as I was going to answer a second ago. I would argue that men are born that way. Let me respond to that. And then I'll come to you, Jess. Then Sean, you'd be waiting patiently. Most men are born to be protectors and providers.

I can't imagine my dad saying, you know what, to my mom, you know what? I'm not going to be a protector and a provider. unless you do this. That's not how real men operate. Real men are protectors and providers, and they marry women who hopefully have some virtue, but also bring a lot to the table as well, that are great mothers, great wives, caretakers of the home. There's nothing wrong with being a traditional wife and mother. You're misunderstanding me if you think that I think that women should just be out doing whatever they want. I think that there are gender roles that should be respected.

But I don't think a man needs to get something out of it to be a manly man, a protector, and a provider. If you think you need to get something out of it, I quite frankly don't consider you a real man. Yeah, she have nothing. She have nothing. But we'll discuss in a moment whether Andrew Wilson is a real man. Pears, I offer nothing. I offer nothing. You offer me a lot of things, Tommy. That's why I always love having on the show. You know that. Let's go to a real man, James Bar. Thank you. I do see myself as a man. And I know that you'll be looking at me thinking, well, you're not. You're wearing makeup. You're wearing colorful clothes. Like, look. look at me and really can't. My nails are painting.

I mean, they are worrying signs. I agree. You're sat there smoking a cigarette. I'd love to get a vape out and start drinking a beer. You know, pints with the lads, just connect with you over that. I think that you have some insane opinions on what women are meant to do for you. It's crazy that you don't appreciate that a woman actually gave birth to you. Like, she gave you a womb for nine months and then looked after you, I would hope, for the beginning of your life. And you're sat there going, what do women owe men?

Women don't owe men anything. No one owes you any. anything. You have your own life. Do you understand that if you make an argument and you say that women are supposed to be in a house and women argument? In a position, if that women are supposed to be in a position of privilege where men do A, B, C, and D for them. And then I asked, well, what duties do women have? And you say, well, nothing.

No one said that men need, I personally. I don't know why men are checking out. I don't get it. You just, that's silly, man. All right, let me bring in the one person who so far hasn't said a word about this. There's a lot of interesting things to say. Sean, welcome to Unsensit. I mean, I think one of the key things of this series has made it so popular

is that anyone who's had young sons knows that they are, if you're not careful, they get exposed to a lot of nasty stuff on the internet. We all know this. And a lot of it is this kind of in-cell stuff, which I think can be a really malevolent influence on impressionable young men. And they gravitate to it.

And I think that partly what Andrew is getting at, I agree with it, with in the sense that following the Me Too times up campaigns, which were in many ways extremely laudable, brought down a lot of very bad men, no question of that. But they also, the pendulum swung so wildly that I think a lot of young men in particular felt completely disenfranchised from society,

felt like they're all being treated like a bunch of young Harvey Weinsteins and they could prove otherwise. They didn't really know what the rules of engagement were with women, with teenage girls, anymore, whatever. They lost their way. And by losing their way, they gravitated, I think, to people to very loud voices on the internet like Andrew Tate, who I think, you know, like I say, he says a lot of stuff I can find myself nodding to, and then he'll say this misogynist stuff, which I just despise it. I see no reason why you should ever want to have a relationship with

a woman the way that Andrew Tate wants you to, where it's just pure misogyny. But just, just Talk to me, first of all, about why you think young boys, teenage boys, young men, why they've gravitated to people like Tate? Because I have. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. So I think it's, you know, first of all, we got to understand that we have an amazing responsibility as a parent to lead from the home and to have these open conversations with our young

children, all right? Whether they're male children, female children, we have to make sure that we're having open-door conversations and we are tackling the hard subjects. Because if we don't, if we don't take care of. everything at home, we don't take care of everything in public, like at school, and other forces within society that help raise our children, we always say it takes a village. Well, it certainly does, but it starts at home. And if you cannot have these open conversations and allow your children to be honest and open how they are feeling about society and the things that they are seeing,

they are going to go to misogyny. They're going to go to the Andrew interest and tates of the world, and they're going to learn how to be a man from that. And that is not what society needs. It's not what the world needs. That is not masculinity. It is masquerading as misogyny. How do we, how do we protect young men from the easy access at the moment there is to people like Tate? I mean, how do you actually put a ring fence around them so that they are, you can tackle exactly what you've just said, but they're not also being dragged into that world. It's tough because they're growing up in a world. We never grew up in, Pierce. We didn't grow up with the internet. We didn't grow up with Bumble, Tinder, Instagram, Facebook.

No, I was taught how to treat women by my mother, my grandmother. Open the door, right? Open the door. A lot of strong women in my family, very strong women. And they would just take no crap from the men. So that's the environment I grew up in. Absolutely.

So how do we insulate our children from this? By having conversations, putting parameters around the social media aspects of life and having the conversations at home. Hey, hey, son, hey daughter, this is what you're going to see out there in the real world. This is what you're going to see on the internet. If you see something like this, that is not how a true man is supposed to act. And, hey, that's not how a real man is supposed to treat you. Right.

So we have to have the conversations. Yeah. Andrew, do you intrinsically disagree with what you've just heard? Yeah, I do. Again, all of this is always the burden on men. Burden on men. Men need to be doing this. No, it's a family, Andrew.

The family, Andrew. Husband and wife. So let me. Let me back up. Okay, again, men need to do this. Men need to do that. What I'm talking about is what duties do women have in society? What are actual women's duties towards men?

Everybody is raised from the time their kids how we're supposed to treat women. We all know how to treat women. We never talk about how men are supposed to be treated. That's almost never discussed, especially by how women are supposed to treat men, what their duties in society are. This has been completely dispelled. Guys like Tate have risen because Christianity itself has become a feminized religion, especially the Protestant sex, has become completely feminized.

And it didn't use to punish masculinity at all. And now it does. And so where's the alternative? Where's the spiritual alternative? It's nowhere. And we need to get back to this fundamental question of what even is misogyny? Because I don't think that men kicking the crap out of each other, being brutes, you know, insulting each other, hazing each other, even bullying each other is misogyny.

Not only do I not think it's misogy. I think it's perfectly healthy. Yeah, but I don't think that's a misogyny. Is that the argument? That is not misogyny. Well, no, no, hang on, hang on. My women see this is tonalieny. Misogyny is where you have a hatred

or, you know, whatever you want to phrase it, towards women. It's not about men treating men. Sorry, toxic masculinity is what I'm referencing here. And toxic masculinity is what they're claiming leads to misogyny. So what I'm talking about is these are all masculine traits. There's nothing wrong with them. Right? When you're talking about misogyny itself, I want to know what that even is.

Is it just asserting yourself to women, telling women no, telling them, no, that's bullshit? No, I'm saying you're wrong. Telling them you're saying stupid things. Andrew Tate says he's quite open about it. Women should stay at home. They shouldn't go out to work. They should do what he tells them. He's the king of the castle in his house. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That is misogy. Isn't it? You know, I've got a daughter. I've got a 13-year-old daughter. I don't want her thinking she can never leave the house. she's somebody's chapter. It's not never leaving the house. Look, it is true that the world would be a better place if we didn't have it inverted.

And women did have a natural role at home and that that was glorified and that there was government propaganda around the nuclear family and keeping women home. Why do you want to outsource the raising of children to strangers instead of your wife? That's a way better society. Why do you want your best and brightest women forced to go to a workplace instead of the best and brightest women, staying at home, raising their children, that's a way better system. It's always been a better system. I guess we're talking freedom of choice. That's not massaging women to do anything.

It's freedom of choice. It's freedom of choice. I love the fact that my wife's out there working, teaching kids and building adolescence. I love that. I love that. And to your point about what do I get from a woman? I have a home. I have three beautiful children.

I have communication in the house. And to me, that means more than anything. I don't understand where I'm not saying you're wrong in your world, but to to sit there and say to a woman, what do I get out of this woman? That's treating her like an object. One thing I want to pay a quick. Okay, so it's okay to treat men like objects.

Give them duties, but you're not allowed to give women duties. I feel respected in my home. I'm not angry about it. The United States that men can be drafted. Women can't be drafted, but women can vote to send men to war. 18 years old, they're stabbing each other in the face with baynets. Women can vote to send men to war that they then themselves do not have to fight. It's a duty that men have.

They do not have. What's the counter duty for women? There's no obligation for women to have children well under replacement rate. It's slated 45% of women will be single in the next 10 years, up to 60% in the next 30. That's the estimates right now. Our replacement rate, we can't even replace our own country's birth rates. That's how low they are. Maybe this is what we're seeing as a systemic issue.

inside of society because nobody will put duties on women. Instead, you just pretend men have all the duty. Maybe that's why the replacement rate is low. Yeah. It's crazy to me as well that you were just saying. Don't talk of each other. I can't understand why you are sat there confidently thinking of herself as a victim constantly.

You have a platform and you're sat here like, I'm a victim. What are women doing for me? What happened in your childhood that has made you so traumatized as an adult that you cannot stand women succeeding? I'm so confused. I feel like the, The problem is not, and actually, maybe this is our fault, maybe this is the left's fault, maybe this is modern society's fault for leaving people like you behind.

But genuinely, we do not hate men and toxic masculinity has been thrown around a lot. Ultimately, some of what you're saying is toxic, but that's not because you're a man. That's because you're an idiot. All right. Okay. So just to give you a quick rejoinder here, again, didn't contend with a single argument I made. You just said, why aren't you acting like a victim while you're here talking about how women are victims? with arguments that other things are made.

It's wild to be. It's so wild. You know this is Piers of a show. Let me go to Tommy. Tommy, I want to play a clip. This is from a show called News Night on the BBC in the UK, where the host, Victoria Darwish had a panel of young men on and asked them, when was the last time you cried? Let's watch this.

When was the last time you cried? Honestly, the last time I cried, I couldn't tell you. Same with Leo, I can't really remember the last time that I cried fully. A lot of times I feel emotion and I look at myself, why can't I cry? We're told to suppress our emotions. I feel like to guys, we may be treated a certain way that evokes an idea that we have to be extremely strong and up front and here as a man and I'm going to be composed at all times.

Now, I've got a slight issue with this, Tommy, in the sense that one of the most devastating moments for me as a movie watch. was watching James Bond blubbing in the last Bond movie. I don't think to prove you're a modern man, you need to be sobbing all the time. You know, I can't remember the last time I cry. It doesn't make me less of a man or less empathetic to people or anything.

I think this, again, the pendulum issue of what we want men to be, I think we're now trying to persuade a lot of young men if you're not emoting all the time, then you're being suppressed in some way. You know, we have over here the British stiff upper lip, which I think it's a really bad rap.

I think it's not a bad thing to actually not over-remote. Your thoughts? I agree. Sorry, Sean. I'll come to you. That was for Tommy. I'll come to you in a minute, sure.

Oh, sorry, Tommy. Sorry. Yeah, I don't disagree with you at all peers. I don't think that men should be trained to be overly emotional and that that should be a sign now of new maturity being emotional. I don't agree with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with men crying in certain circumstances.

Listen, everybody has a different journey. Everybody has a different set of circumstances. There are circumstances wherein men crying I have no issue with. It's also not up to me to tell a man when he can or cannot cry. I personally prefer the men in my life not to be overly emotional, but that's just a personal preference. Really, who am I to tell a man how he should exhibit his emotions? But again, I think that there is two sides here that are both two extremes. You've got the one hand that wants men to be feminine and cry and show their emotion and be weak. And then you've got the other side that says you cannot cry. You must always be strong.

And you should look at women as an object. So again, there's got to be a happy medium here. I think there once was. But now because of, again, I agree, there was an overreaction of the feminist movement to make men weak. I don't agree with that either. I just wish we could come to a place where there was a happy medium where people could just be human beings who could have a gender role but weren't married to that gender role and absoluteness. There's got to be a place for that. I would certainly hope. Yeah. Andrew Wilson,

when was the last time you cried? When I had a death in my family. And how long ago was that? If you don't mind me asking. Many, many, many years. I don't know, maybe a decade, something like that. Right. So you haven't shed a tear in a decade? I don't think so, no. Do you, would you see it inherently as a weakness in a man to over-emote? Well, yeah. Listen, you don't want men to fall to pieces in crisis. You're the head of a family. You're the head of your household. And also you're the heads of nations.

You have a moral obligation not to fall to pieces. In fact, I would say you're duty-bound not to. You need to be able to control your emotions and you need to be able to attempt to control them at all times. It's not to say that you're not going to lose control. Nobody's perfect. But I think that the idea of the stoic man is a much better prospect for the idea of like this leftist that I'm arguing with next to me on the

panel. I would not want to be that guy, that person who just cannot control their internal emotions. They can't do it. And unfortunately, again, this is through the viewpoint of the feminine prism, that it's only through empathy, right? Empathy first. And it's like, no, it's not always about empathy. It's also about reason. It's also about logic. It's also about understanding that we live in a carnal world full of warring tribes who are always killing each other. And that's part of the human condition. can't afford to have your men losing control to emotion or to empathy. James, when was the last time you didn't cry on a date? I haven't cried today.

But I did cry yesterday, and I think it's okay to cry. And it's funny that you keep trying to goad me and saying that I don't have control of my emotions. I think I have an incredible control of my emotions because I know what's upsetting me and when. And I'm able to talk about it. Well, how often do you cry? I mean, not all the time. Every day? No, not every day, peers.

I cried yesterday. I probably haven't cried for about three weeks before that. But honestly, my therapist tells me I need to cry. And it's a good release. But the point being, Andrew, has cried in 10 years. I think that is such a weakness, Andrew, that you haven't cried in a decade. Like, that's crazy to me. My therapist told me I could cry.

I'm so worried about you. I can't understand. Well, you're crying now. I'm pleased I happily facilitated that for you. I think we're seeing the two extremes that Tommy was talking. Honestly, yeah, Tommy, you're so right. There's no nuance. I mean, it's difficult to have nuance on this show anyway, but we do need to find some in this debate.

I think the point is men should not feel they can never emote, but also they shouldn't be encouraged to believe if they're not constantly emoting. There's something wrong with them. Well, of course. And that's where the pendulum has just gone too far. You are also sort of guilty of this manosphere appears. You're very much in the manosphere yourself.

What do you think that means? Well, it means that you think James Bond shouldn't cry, and if he does, that's a weakness. I want James Bond to be, I want him to seduce women. Which he does. I want him to be a ruthless steely-eyed dealer at death to bad guys. But also... I want him to have a cigarette with his whiskey or his shaken luster martini.

Maybe Andrew is your type. And I don't want him sobbing like a baby all the time. I don't. Like Tommy might not. Guess what? When you're in Her Majesty's Secret Service, you don't have time to cry over time. I have very sad news about Her Majesty Piers. Sadly, she did pass away.

And I'm sure you cried at that, which is completely within your breath. Tommy. The last bond film was under Her Majesty, so I was correct. Fine. Great fact-checking. Tommy would obviously like to go out with a man like you then, because you don't think it's okay for a man's crime. She has excellent taste. But there are other women who do like a man who cry.

We're not all the same. We don't all require the same type of man. So it's fine if we all want to be different types of men, but there shouldn't be one rule for all men. And that's the problem I have. Let me bring Sean back in. And bring it back to adolescence. Because this series is blown up worldwide.

It's got incredible numbers of people. people watching, talking about it, debating. A lot of parents thinking what should they do if they have a young teenage boy? And I saw, as I said with my three sons, the Jonathan Hayton book about cell phones, you know, from 2010, when phones became smartphones, basically young people's brains started scrambling, and they've carried on scrambling ever since. That doesn't help. I think a lot of the issues that young men face are driven by stuff they see on that phone. I agree. I mean, you know, for this, for this specific instance, we, my wife and I, we're waiting to give our children phones until at least eighth grade, right? At least eighth grade,

we want to monitor what they're seeing and what they're being filled with, right? Because, again, they're subject to search engines. They hear things at school, then they go home. They, they search it on their phone, they search it in, you know, in their, in their room. And now they're wide open to this world that they don't need to be a part of because their brains haven't fully formed yet they're still little. My son's almost 12, right? I've got to be very careful of what he puts in his mind. And social media, and for the things that we are doing as adults, yeah, it's pouring into our household and we're doing well with it. But for an adolescent, like these young kids, I'm seeing kids at dinners when we're at restaurant surfing TikTok while their parents are

not even paying attention to what they're doing. Like that right there, that right there is a massive problem. And if we don't, as a society, get a hold of that, then this will never end. There will be more series like adolescents that hit even harder because we're witnessing it in our own lives. Yeah. I mean, Andrew, you seem to be in agreement with some of that. Yeah, I mean, it's poison. There's no doubt. It rescambles children's brains. And it's very difficult to monitor. Even if you have parental controls, they can find ways around it. At school, they have, you know, peers who will assist them in getting around it. You have to monitor it really. well. You know, smartphone technology for my own kids. It was kind of new. I wish that I, in retrospect,

had done more guarding against that myself. You just, you don't know the dangers of that technology until children get a hold of it. And then you're left scrambling going, oh, man, I wish I had known that this was going on or that was going on, but you have no idea. Now, though, we have a little bit of retrospect, and we know that it's, it's an appropriate thing to do to guide against this type of technology because, yeah, he's absolutely right. It does create all sorts of problems for kids. I'm not sure that that gets to the heart of the masculinity and feminine issue, but I totally agree with him that we should be safeguarding our children against this technology. It does seem to be very bad for them. And, you know, James, there is pretty well unfettered pornography on the internet available

to young men and women, obviously, but men are watching a lot of often quite violent, degrading sexual scenes in these porn clips are seeing online. None of that can help in the way an impressionable young male mind goes about trying to forge a real relationship with an actual woman. Well, I think it's important not to say young male mind. It's any person's mind, right? Like, I don't think we should victimize men.

I can't believe Andrews agreeing with me. But, yeah, it's awful. I mean, I genuinely don't think people should have phones until they're 16. They certainly shouldn't have... Well, Australia has done that, and I'm not against them. The smartphone banned till 16. I mean, it's terrifying. Why not?

You can't go on air on TV and say whatever you want. Like, I know you're pretending that you're uncensored, but you couldn't sit here and say literally whatever you want. That's okay. Well, not really, Piers, because if you said something that incited hatred or racism or a terror attack, you would be arrested. I wouldn't want to. I'm not saying that you want to.

I'm just trying to make a point. Online. You're saying I can't say what I want. Online, anybody. I do not want to incite a terror attack. No, but if you did. No, but I'm allowed. You're raising an interesting point about censorship.

We're uncensored because I don't say anything I don't want to say. Right. So when you say I'm censoring, I'm actually self-censoring, I'm not. I'm not going to call for terror. I'm not saying that you would ever do that, of course. But I'm saying that if you did, there would be accountability for that because you are broadcasting to a lot of people. But a lot of people online do not have that gate stopping them from saying horrendous things. And so therefore it can blow up online.

Excuse the horrible pun. And that shouldn't be allowed. They should be a system in place that stops people broadcasting things that aren't meant to be broadcast to millions of people. One of the problems, Tommy, Toby Young, who's a British journalist, director of free speech union, very, very big in promoting and defending free speech. There's adolescence, the new teen drama, is pro-censorship propaganda, partly paid for by the state that is now being seized upon by Labour, left-wing MPs, as evidence we've. need more online censorship. And that is, of course, you know, you talk about a swinging pendulum. What you don't want to come out of all this is an overreaction and an over-censorship,

because that in itself becomes a problem. Yeah, 100%. And I agree with Sean on this point, too. I think parenting has more to do with this than any of us really, you know, can even understand. I mean, many, I'm sure, in this panel can. But parenting is, to me, the end-all-being. of all of all of this. I mean, you can watch horrible things online. You can listen to people say horrible

things, but if you've got a good foundation with good parents at home, hopefully too, that provides you with a lot of guidance and support to navigate these things. And it doesn't really, you know, scramble your mind in the way that those that are not blessed with a two-parent household may be impacted by it. I don't believe that censorship is ever the answer. I believe that more speech is the answer to speech that you don't like. And as much as I don't like certain people on in what they say, whether the Tate brothers or whoever else, I believe that they should have the right and the ability to say it and then people like us should have the right and ability to respond to. I think that's the healthiest way to come to a great consensus or at least a public square where we can all

debate ideas with dialogue and conversation. But I don't think that censorship is ever the answer. And I think that our leaders in America have done a great job of emphasizing that, especially to the European countries who believe censorship is the way to cleanse or the way to legislate morality. I just don't think that's the way to do it. Well, the instinctive reaction, certainly in the UK, for a long time now, many years, has been to censor and to ban and prohibit and so on. And I think people are beginning to wake up to the downside of that, is that once you give away, once you chip away things like freedom of speech, freedom of expression, you're

heading down a pretty slippery road, which can be dictated. by your government. And then that's not a place. It's interesting, though, isn't it? I mean, I just want to make a side point and don't need to get into it. But like, your government are banning books. So they are literally talking about free speech

whilst also banning free speech that they don't agree with. So what you're saying is nice. And I agree with you in principle. But that's not literally what is happening. It's not the same as banning books. You talked about freedom of speech, right? And everyone coming together and having discussion about it.

But that's not what's happening. Yeah, but putting graphic gay porn into children's libraries is a little different. I mean, no one should be putting porn into a children's library. I think we all agree on that. Then why are you complaining that that's being banned? Because that's not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing books that talk about diversity, equality, that talk about Black Lives Matter, that talk about gay pride.

Like, this is... Yeah, so I don't, well, I don't have the same take as the rest of the panel when it comes to the idea of legislating morality. I think that there are ideas which are subversive and that we can get rid of and that that's absolutely fine to do. I don't think that we need to have unfettered access to pornography. I don't think that we need to have unfettered access to children being introduced to this type of sexuality so young. I don't think that that's necessary at all. I don't think it's an impingement on free speech at all. And not only that, there's going to necessarily be limits on every single freedom that we have.

By necessity, that's the way it has to be, unfortunately. And the reason it has to be that way is because otherwise you're going to have nothing but subversives who go in and subvert your entire culture, which is exactly what happened in the UK and it's exactly what's been happening in the United States. So we have to have some way to fight back against that. All right. Sean, final word to you. I just feel like, you know, raising children is a multi-prong approach, right? I mean, you're looking at first in the house, then you're looking at the schools. You're looking at the government. You're looking at extracurricular activities with co-pronging.

and different people that have their hands on the child, I just think it's important to be at home having these open conversations, right? What this drama series did for me was already, you know, already had this shining light on a subject, but made it even brighter, like, I need to open the door and talk to my child. You know, I need to talk to my son,

I need to talk to my daughter to see what's going on in the world, right? Because if I don't know what's going on, then I can't help them navigate navigate what's going out in society. But I think, you know, it's interesting. It's been a fascinating debate. I just think if you don't know that your child is going down rabbit holes like that kid is in that series for that length of time, then it comes to Tommy's point is you're failing, your parenting. That is a fundamental part of parenting is you're supposed to be protecting these impressionable young minds as best you can. If they're spending hours after hour every day,

you know, watching and viewing incredibly disturbing content, that fries their brains and makes them do stuff they wouldn't otherwise have done, you are failing as a parent. One of the biggest issues in the world right now is a general sense of a lack of accountability for parents. They're the first, fictless parents to blame everybody else. It's the government's full. It's the police full. It's the social workers full. It's the school teachers full, et cetera, et cetera. It's never there for.

And actually, if you just start by saying, actually, we should have done it. more as parents. That is a good message to send everybody. We can probably all agree on that. Great discussion. Great discussion. Thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Peirz Morgan Unsencenton is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me.

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